Nowhere to hide

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Politics has been slow to enter the digital age, but the threshold has been crossed. Data now reigns. And no wonder.

People don’t go out to public meetings much any more. Voting participation rates have plunged. Door-knocking is less and less effective as urbanites cocoon behind security systems. Posted mail is expensive to deliver while admail is considered blue box material. All-candidates events attract only the partisans. The days of the big political rally may well be over.

But, we have email. And we’re all data. Digital profiles of voters have become the new currency of political parties. Suddenly, with enough data on citizens, parties can gauge support, get out the vote, target volunteers, gain lawn sign locations, build relationships and raise all-important donations.

In the end, the guy with the best lists may well be the guy who moves into 24 Sussex. And right now, that guy would unquestionably be Stephen Harper.

Data mining has been a holy grail of the Conservative Party and its director of political operations, Doug Finley. But some are now asking, has it gone too far?

That was the question some Jewish Canadians had recently when they received an unsolicited Rosh Hashanah card from the prime minister of Canada. It was also the question some constituents of Conservative MP Cheryl Gallant asked when they received birthday cards from her – a person they had not met.

The federal privacy commissioner has launched a preliminary investigation into how the PM’s mailing list of Jewish recipients was assembled. But the answer as to where this data came from is probably obvious to anyone who’s worked for a Conservative MP.

cims-logo1.JPG In 2004 the nascent CPC decided to invest in a state-of-the-art data management system with the ability to identify and track voters – millions of them. Called CIMS, for Constituent Information Management System, its aim was to gain a profile on every Canadian of voting age – their name, address, sex, voting preferences and any other available information.

My first exposure to this was a year later when I became a Conservative candidate and started knocking on doors. My party riding association was connected to CIMS – in fact, it was mandatory. The Halton Conservatives paid $2,000 a year to the Conservative Party and, in return, were given access to a database of local residents, and expected to continue to gather data.

So, when I went to bang on doors in a neighbourhood, my team dug into CIMS, and printed out a walk list for the poll. It told me who lived in each house on each street, along with any known information on what party they support. Every name was followed by a bar code.

After talking to each person, I assessed their political leaning and marked it on my sheet. Back at the campaign office, teams of people keyed in the data while using bar code readers to match it up with voters’ names. Thus, on election day, we had the names of thousands of potential supporters to telephone or email, to ensure they voted.

Fair enough. A stellar campaign tool, which also provided a rolling poll to the Conservative party, which had unfettered access at any time to all local data. In fact, CIMS automatically updated a pie chart graph showing how much popular support the Con candidate had in the riding.

But CIMS does not stop there. Besides being a political party data base for voter identification and tracking supporters, it is also a constituency management tool. That means MPs offices routinely use it to load in data obtained during an MP’s duties in representing the people of his or her riding.

After the January, 2006 election, my constituency staff was instructed by the Conservative Party to use CIMS on a daily basis, loading in information about constituents who were seeking help, or who contacted the office for any reason, be it to praise the member or rant. CIMS then provided a living database in which pre-loaded electoral profiles were supplemented by this daily stream of information which might identify the occupants of a specific house as seniors, Conservatives, or members of a certain faith.

It took only months for thousands of names to be added, or existing profiles expanded. It also did not take long for me to fully understand what I now clearly know – this information was still being warehoused by the Conservative Party, which also constantly monitored and mined the data.

Within six months, we made the decision to employ a third-party contractor to set up an independent database that was completely secure to our office, and stopped loading new material into CIMS. As events transpired, this was a wise decision.

On the morning that I was ejected from the Conservative caucus, CIMS went dark, along with my staff’s computers in the Hill and riding offices.

When I joined the Liberal caucus, I learned that party has a similar system, but with a key difference. The database management program that’s used to track constituents on a daily basis is divorced from the electoral program which only becomes active when a vote has been called. Data does not migrate, making it less effective as an ongoing partisan tool, but also giving protection to the voter who has approached his or her MP on a non-political issue.

So, how did the prime minister find out the names and addresses of scads of Jewish Canadians who might be friendlies? I am sure the privacy commissioner will inform us.

Disclosure:
All politicians collect data. I am no exception. Every person who has emailed me in the past 30 months to express a political opinion has had their address logged. The list is then combed to separate the names of those who hate my guts. Those who made threats are dealt with as necessary. The remaining list has been used to distribute news releases or information on town hall meetings and coming political events. The program used for this process offers all recipients an auto-delete feature, allowing them to remove their names from the list with a single click. However, there are individuals who feel their data has been misused. They have received a personal apology and their data, of course, has been destroyed. No data has been mined from the almost 70,000 comments submitted to this blog.

165 comments ↓

#1 Harry S on 10.12.07 at 11:53 pm

Enough of your jew-baiting tactics. Is this how the Special Advisor to the Leader of the Liberal Party occupies his time??

I thought your major task was fund-raising, not stirring up racial discord.

Spoken like a true Conservative operative. — Garth

#2 Blair on 10.13.07 at 12:01 am

This comes as no surprise to me at all. I am very concerned about the access and use organizations have of my information.

Aren’t political parties bound by the same privacy laws as businesses?

Garth, you may have your policy on your data collection, but what about the Liberal party as a whole? Is your policy noted somewhere on your website?

#3 Molly on 10.13.07 at 12:46 am

Thanks for that Garth. I was berated recently when discussing Harpo with a person waiting at the same bus stop. I said he’s not really the PM of Canada, I certainly don’t think of him as PM, he’s just a pretender until the next real PM of Canada can rightfully be elected. Aghast she said why would you think that way? I replied because he has nothing but contempt for you and me and Canadians. The electorage, us, are simply in his way and that is contempt.
He’s a footnote, and we have patience.

#4 Charles Oxley on 10.13.07 at 12:52 am

This war is designed to continually evolve without end . . . unless (and until) China and Russia step in and flatten the US.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071013/D8S83AD80.html

#5 jim on 10.13.07 at 1:09 am

So if the CPC did something wrong please tell us, Garth.

Mastercard, Visa, American Express, Royal Bank, BMO, and on and on, continually email me , phone me, send applications with much of my personal information on it. If what the CPC did by a mail out to Jewish people recognizing their holiday was illegal or unethical, then these financial institution executives should end up doing 20 years of hard labour.

I expect you will look into that, Garth. Give us some privacy. Are the libs going to doing anything about that?

#6 John G on 10.13.07 at 1:19 am

OTTAWA – Prime Minister Stephen Harper has appointed former Liberal cabinet minister John Manley to head a panel that will look at the future of Canada’s Afghanistan mission.

However, like Harper, he has said Canada should not abandon its mission in the wartorn country.

“Afghanistan represents an enormous opportunity for Canada to play a meaningful role in a globally significant arena,” Manley said.

“But it also represents an enormous challenge to our resources and our capability and Canadians rightfully ask whether our sacrifices are making a lasting difference for global security and the well-being of Afghan citizens.”

Manley has visited Afghanistan twice, most recently last May as a member of CARE Canada’s board of directors.

More leadership from a very good leader…well done PM….no wonder you’re moving into majority territory..

#7 Joe Calgary on 10.13.07 at 1:26 am

Soooooo… yer saying you like the CPC system better:)

#8 John G on 10.13.07 at 1:35 am

40% majority territory..nice..not much to say that I already haven’t said except all the BRAVADO and gossip of your recent columns are making you look like a fool…please keep it up….oh and about that bet….

#9 Transcanada on 10.13.07 at 1:54 am

The CON’s couldn’t come up with an original idea to save their lives.

Big Brother is watching (1984)

#10 Mikael C. on 10.13.07 at 2:03 am

This was certainly an insight rarely offered to normal Canadians.

thanks.

#11 Transcanada on 10.13.07 at 2:19 am

This Doug Finley set up CIMS?

O’Brien bribery probe reaches PM’s inner circle

A political aide to a Tory MP has told police that Mayor Larry O’Brien’s 2006 campaign team was secretly working on a plan to offer Terry Kilrea “something” to drop out of last year’s mayoral race, and that the unspecified offer was “in the works” through Doug Finley, the campaign director for the Conservative Party of Canada.

#12 Deb Prothero on 10.13.07 at 2:33 am

Thanks for clarifying the data system of the two parties. I believe that the Liberal method is designed to protect the individual because it does not cross reference.

I expect a report from the Privacy Commissioner sooner than February 2008 (what’s not going to happen in February these days).

Elections Canada has not been heard from on that list that you provided. When is that going to be more discussed in the public sphere? Or is that set for February too.

#13 TS on 10.13.07 at 3:22 am

Garth, your posting makes a person wonder where this all stops? The Conservatives were already caught once breaking the rules by Elections Canada (and quietly repaid $530,000)…over 100 candidates/sitting MP’s are being investigated for possible irregularities in the 2006 election….and now….the Conservatives may have run afoul of privacy legislation. Anyone who does not think that Stevie is a control freak needs not look any further! Little apparent concern for ethics and some may think, disregard for the laws of the land. Some “leader”…NOT!

#14 Allan Chambers on 10.13.07 at 6:23 am

Once again, Garth, you have provided solid and useful information about the political world for the readers of your blog. Thanks.

#15 Steve on 10.13.07 at 6:46 am

So let’s see, the required email address is a tracking tool that you do use but not to a terrible degree such as getting unsolicited letters or email. You have a strong enough feel of integrity that I would trust my information with you Mr Turner and I hope that information remains confident and confined as much as possible.

A very scary thought just popped into my head and this applies to all parties and the government as well (regardless of affiliation) but doesn’t this honestly mirror what a corporation would do? Is that not something that makes anyone concerned?

I would argue that those individuals who are loyal to a political party, Leasa comes to mind (I’ll use her as an example), would not be concerned with our current PM. However, what if it was Mr Dion (hypathetically speaking) as our current PM that sent her a letter for her birthday or someone in another political party being her MP that she did not vote for. Would someone such as her not be upset that she is being solicited one way or another? I would hope so.

Granted that we are living in a new era where information is of a currency that is greater than money. Does that mean that almost zealous politicians should be estimating our every move? Do you want those in the positions of power to flaunt their insider information and knowledge to us, even if we are loyal party members?

This subject is a very scary one that honestly has so much potential to be used in a negative manner. Well, that is such a broad classification, perhaps the potential to make civilian life hell if the government was as heavy handed as say that of China or Stalinist Russia or Hitler’s Germany.

I suspect, yet again, with revelations like this that this is to increase voter disillusionment and encourage lower and lower voter turnout.

So now, can we all honestly handle the knowledge that ultimately we are nothing more than numbers when the spotlight shines on our political government parties?

#16 Georgine on 10.13.07 at 7:21 am

Gee Garth,

I hope I’m on your Christmas card list, or Chanukah card list, which ever is fine. Digital is fine too. lol

Geo

#17 keith phibbs on 10.13.07 at 7:21 am

This is something they have been doing since the Reform days, case in point Stockwell Day.
“Mr. Harper was responding to the release of search warrants that were obtained as part of an investigation into allegations that the eventual winner, Mayor Larry O’Brien, used cash and Conservative contacts to get Mr. Kilrea to withdraw
In the search warrants, John Light, an aide to Conservative MP Pierre Poilièvre, said he heard from an O’Brien supporter that senior Conservative official Doug Finley was involved in the alleged dealings”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071012.ottawa13/BNStory/National/home

#18 keith phibbs on 10.13.07 at 7:25 am

AFN chief urges Harper to show commitment to First Nations in throne speech
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/071012/national/fontaine_throne_speech_1

#19 Colin Mudle on 10.13.07 at 7:27 am

I guess that would explain why after the Income Trust debacle I stop receiving mail from the CONs, I’m a write off and don’t matter anymore nor will my CONservative MP reply to my mail any more.
Now I know what roadkill feels like!

#20 MB on 10.13.07 at 7:42 am

Dear Garth,

The conditions upon which you can collect personal information are crystal clear:

1) The collector MUST get the person’s written consent,
2) The collector MUST specify the exact purpose for which the information will be used,
3) Each person MUST have access to the information that is being held by the collector,
4) Only the uses of personal information that the person have signed off against are legal uses of the information.

It is very clear from your blog entry that laws broken, and I dare say SMASHED.

Collection of personal information by political parties about their supporters is usually signed off against when a person buys their membership. That information is fair game ACCORDING TO THE USES THAT HAVE BEEN SPECIFIED in the membership application.

But this sleuting around by all parties and RECORDING anecdotal information on people through casual conversations is the first GIGANTIC NO NO. – No written permission.

Then to take that anecdotal information and use it in unauthorized ways – at this point ALL ways are unauthorized – is the SECOND GIGANTIC NO NO. – Only authorized uses.

And the fact that these databases of people and their anecdotal information is not accessible by the individuals themselves is the FINAL GIGANTIC NO NO.

By the way jim on 10.13.07 1:09 am, YOU GAVE THE BANK YOUR PERMISSION to send you occasional flyers advertising their deals when you signed, or agreed to use one of their websites or software tools.

And that is why it is important when you go down to CITY HALL and someone behind the desk asks you your name – Your response should be – WHAT WILL THAT INFORMATION BE USED FOR – then write their stated use on a piece of paper and get them to sign it. Retribution, or threat of retribution, is an effective tactic used at many small town city halls. Start using the threat of legal action against your city hall if they are not providing you with the information or results you expect.

In any case, Privacy is a HUGE issue.

Garth if you want to comply with the privacy and data collection laws, then every time you record information you must have the three things outlined above:

1) Express written consent, (a checkbox will do, or an ‘I Agree’ button)
2) Stated purpose of USE of information, and
3) Access by person to information collected.

According to Garth’s blog entry, every MP in every party is breaking the law, but the CONS have SMASHING these laws down to a fine art!!!!

Sincerely,
MB

#21 Catherine on 10.13.07 at 7:53 am

“Within six months, we made the decision to employ a third-party contractor to set up an independent database that was completely secure to our office, and stopped loading new material into CIMS. As events transpired, this was a wise decision.”

So did you keep the data you compiled under the CIMS? – it is fairly easy to dump out the data. You simply stated that you stopped using CIMS and that you currently don’t have access to it. When you created the new database, was the database initially populated with the CIMS data?

Data went into a secure system and was not then available for third-party, or inappropriate, usage. — Garth

#22 maggie on 10.13.07 at 7:58 am

“Once again, Garth, you have provided solid and useful information about the political world for the readers of your blog. Thanks.”
My question is, where is the MSM in all of these alleged scandals? As I recall, they went out of their way to link the Liberal name with any whiff of something suspicious in the news, over and over and over. If the Harper government is under investigation, all we seem to hear is one story, a rebuttal from Harper that it’s not true, and presto! It goes away. How can we force the MSM to do its job? (and please, Cons, spare me the whine about the media having a Liberal bias. That is simply not true.)

#23 James- Chatham on 10.13.07 at 8:03 am

Just typical of the CPC and the New Government, they can’t distinguish between the two.

Data used in as a tool to track constituancy business should be for government purposes only. This should never be used for electioneering. Any data for that purpose is party data.

Government data and party data should never be mixed. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. It goes to the integrity, or lack thereof, of the CPC.

I hope the Privacy Commissioner puts their feet to the coals. Yet another CPC scandal to add to the list.

#24 James- Chatham on 10.13.07 at 8:04 am

PS.

Just imagine what the fall out would be if CIMS got hacked! Hope their security is better than TJX!

#25 James- Chatham on 10.13.07 at 8:10 am

So if as part of constituancy work, CPC MP’s offices enter information, do they also look at the voting preferences when you call the office?

Now I know why the CPC never call me come election time, because I told them to take a hike. But if I were to call the MP’s office with a problem, would I get less service because they know I won’t vote for the guy?

#26 slg on 10.13.07 at 8:17 am

The CPC trolls don’t like your blog – too bad. Do any of them really believe that we don’t think for ourselves – via the MSM (when they do their job), etc. Garth has given us some info – why do the trolls have a problem with that? They want it all buried so no one knows.

I read where certain Jewish lobbyists groups are okay with the greeting card issue – “lobbyist” groups keep in mind.

I didn’t get an Xmas Card, Easter Card, Thanksgiving greeting so why just the “vote buying” cards to specific groups? Are the other Canadians not good enough for a greeting?

Garth – who pays for these cards – CPC or taxpayers?

With all his bullroar about lobbyists – Harper uses them continually – phony man he is that’s for sure.

#27 Captain George on 10.13.07 at 8:19 am

Mr. Dion,

Please listen to the Captain and you will get in. Not later….NOW!

Nothing brings voters to the booth more than a genuine platform of TAX CUTS, Corporate and Personal plus the pledge to resign if you fail to implement by 2009.
Start showing that clip on air of Harper lying to the Seniors about not taxing Income Trusts now! Voters will question and not believe a word from CRAP.
Just Do It.

http://www.liberal.ca/story_13203_e.aspx

#28 MB on 10.13.07 at 8:29 am

P.S.

“No data has been mined from the almost 70,000 comments submitted to this blog.”

AT LEAST NOT BY YOU GARTH.

Who knows what avenues (commenter blogs) the Harperbots are running down to collect even more information on the people of the nation???

Commenter blogs which can be cross referenced with their blog entries on this site. Commenter blogs which oftentimes show names, preferences, email addresses, friend’s names, friends blogs, grandparent’s names, grandparent’s blog entries, grandparent’s preferences…

I guess that’s why they call it data mining.

Be careful about listing your blog address in the URI box, the Harperbots will mine every square inch of your life!!!!!

Sincerely,
Unmineable MB

#29 Herb on 10.13.07 at 8:30 am

“No data has been mined from the almost 70,000 comments submitted to this blog.”

Perhaps not by you, Garth, but don’t bank on it. Before the digital age, letters to the editor were read religiously not only by political staffs, but by local, provincial (where established) and federal police forces. The aim of the police forces was to identify potential troublemakers and to build files for eventual use in the interest of public security. Political staffs tracked reaction to issues, analyzed “communications” needs and effectiveness, and also did some friend-or-foe identification of their own for political use.

The internet makes it possible to do all of the above in spades, with the added advantage of tracing the source right back to the computer and nearly the desk or lap it sits on.

All internet users and bloggers best be alive to the fact that we are being watched and, should we rise above the radar horizon of a public or political – possibly even a commercial – interest, locked-on and tracked.

What’s privacy?

#30 Herb on 10.13.07 at 8:37 am

And herding the sheep –

The conclusion of an LTTE in to-day’s Ottawa Citizen:

“… the Citizens’ Assembly chose to recommend MMP because they were presented with one-sided arguments that favoured MMP. I know because I attended every public session of the assembly as a despairing observer.”

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/letters/story.html?id=27292e8a-3faa-475c-bf56-b35a0654a16b

#31 Dube on 10.13.07 at 8:40 am

So if the CPC did something wrong please tell us, Garth.
Mastercard, Visa, American Express, Royal Bank, BMO, and on and on, continually email me , phone me, send applications with much of my personal information on it. If what the CPC did by a mail out to Jewish people recognizing their holiday was illegal or unethical, then these financial institution executives should end up doing 20 years of hard labour.
I expect you will look into that, Garth. Give us some privacy. Are the libs going to doing anything about that?
By jim on 10.13.07 1:09 am

It’s disconcerting enough – but not surprising – to be on yet another database. What I consider wrong and unethical in this instance is to expand the content to potentially include such information as birthdates, ethnicity, religious affiliation, marital status, health, sexual orientation, and so on, the kind of things that for example potential employers are not permitted to ask about during job interviews. It is my understanding that Gallant culled the birthdate data from passport applications that she was asked to sign as guarantor, in my view a breach of trust. It’s one thing – which I still do not like and consider an invasion of privacy – for a political candidate to collect name and address info against which an assessment of each resident is made for potential support, while pounding on doors during a campaign. It’s another to build such a detailed profile of private information, especially when that information is not voluntarily given.
Revenue Canada must explicitly ask for permission to simply share your address info with Elections Canada (check your tax form). When Statistics Canada does its census, you must explicitly give it permission to release details of a portion of its content 75 years after its collected (or some such timeframe) or it will be forever kept private – much to the chagrin of historians and genealogists. Health Canada is not permitted to share your data with anyone. Other government agencies tie themselves in knots to develop identifiers of citizens by some means not connected to your SIN, so that such cross-referencing across agencies cannot take place. As an arms-length branch of government, political parties should also be subjected to similar controls.

#32 David Bakody on 10.13.07 at 8:49 am

As Garth has mentioned the facts, perhaps these words are more important to these people who have memories of just how devistating a list of specific people can be. I is always different when it is you, to make anyother kind of an analogy has as how these people should feel is neither kind nor correct. As for my name, being on any list, I am and will be an independant, and will cast my vote in private. What I say via phone or internet is how I happen to feel at moment within my educated talents or lack there of to put pen to paper. Having said this I find it most disturbing that the CPC would overstep themselfs in such a sensitive area and what is most distrubing is the lack for foresight in the possible fall outs to such a ill thought plan. This however confirms in my mind that their is indeed a devil under foot within the new CPC. Will it continue or will it shoved under ground or brought out into public eyes for them to judge, time will tell. Thanks Garth for stating what is known of the truth, Canadians must make up their own minds, I can only hope our professional journalist provide the truth also, and each voter has all the facts before they make their “X”.

Lies are easily believed the truth must be sought out.

#33 Leasa on 10.13.07 at 8:58 am

By Steve on 10.13.07 6:46 am

Good morning Steve. This is such a complicated issue. More than you know. I have had restaurants send my birthday cards. I have had totally pre-approved mortgages sent to my home, in my name all that was needed to activate it is my signature. I have had credit lines approved and credit cards approved in the same manner with huge pre-approved amounts. Our business also gets the same. There are two sources where our financial information probably came from. One is a simple credit check. The other would perhaps be an unfounded accusation, so I won’t go there.

Here’s the rub Steve; if the government, any government uses your information the average business owner or person, really has no recourse. It would involve suing them. The government(s) have teams of lawyers and very, very deep pockets. Even when you are totally right, they can keep you before the courts for years on end. You can be looking at an easy cool million in legal fees in no time flat. Been there, didn’t do that.

The Ontario government in all their wisdom, gave my direct competitor 300,000 tax payer’s dollars in a ‘grant’. It’s too complicated to go into detail here, but when I asked them one question; how can you justify this, what was your ‘market’ analysis, I was told that they “had all my business information before the project approval committee.” When I asked them where they got this information, I was told (exact words) “you know how it is, people talk, your neighbours talk”. Yes, Steve, gossip and hearsay can be used to hurt you, they often don’t need the facts. Somewhere on a government document, my business information has been recorded without my knowledge or consent according to the ‘neighbourhood’. I am not even allowed to see or review it or know where it came from.

However, when it comes to the government protecting itself you are not entitled to any information what so ever! I now have an access to information request simply asking how much other tax payer’s dollars have been given to this other business by this same ministry. It’s now 9 months and going into ‘arbitration’. I am also not allowed to know the identity of the ‘independent consultant’ used to grant these funds or if the money was used appropriately.

So, all in all, we should worry about a few greeting cards?

I hope you never have to see this end of the ‘system’, it’s ugly.

Leasa

#34 KPK on 10.13.07 at 9:04 am

Garth,

Why does your blog collect email addresses? We never get email so what is the point of making it mandatory to post a comment? Do you keep this information for some reason?

It is a feature of the software program employed – and for obvious good reason. None of the information is harvested from the blog archives, where it is securely held. — Garth

#35 slg on 10.13.07 at 9:13 am

Why the hedging on a decision by Harper about the Afghan war? Appoints a panel to delay a decision – hmmm.

Doesn’t the Auditor General (Sheila Fraser) have to do a report in February?

Doesn’t Harper have to meet the requirements of the Gomery Report by February?

Pending investigations on CPC adscam, bribery involving the Ottawa mayor, secrets about detainees and more – we all know why Harper wants an election now – before the poop hits the fan folks.

Why would Jack Layton be in such a hurry when all this is coming up?

Dion should perhaps not pull the government down at this point in time – Harper may have some interesting situations looming. He wouldn’t want to be challenged in the HofC.

#36 Georgine on 10.13.07 at 9:18 am

OTTAWA – Prime Minister Stephen Harper has appointed former Liberal cabinet minister John Manley to head a panel that will look at the future of Canada’s Afghanistan mission.

I believe that John Manley’s most recent and current project is still with the SSP, working towards Deep Integration by 2010 of Canada, the US, and Mexico.

He is one of three Chairs on the Council on Foreign Relations, Thomas P. D’Aquino and Robert Pastor Vice Chairs. But the entire “task force reads like a who’s who of Who You’d Expect at a NWO Breakfast or NAU Tea.

JOHN P. MANLEY is Senior Counsel at McCarthy Tetrault LLP. He has held several senior portfolios in the Canadian government throughout his fifteen years of public service — including industry, foreign affairs, and finance — as well as holding the position of Deputy Prime Minister. Following 9/11, he was named Chairman of the Public Security and Anti-terrorism Cabinet Committee and, in that capacity, negotiated the Smart Border Agreement with U.S. Secretary for Homeland Security Thomas Ridge.

Yes, John Manley is just the fellow to say if we should stay in Af’stan or no. I’d first like to know who he is working for is all. Or is it simply the guy who cut the largest cheque, or check.

Geo

ps: Why have this panel of “others” anyway? What gives them some secret insight that the rest of us are missing? Give it a rest Harper. This part of the mission is due to wrap up. Let it go already.

#37 Haltonjohn on 10.13.07 at 9:19 am

By Molly on 10.13.07 12:46 am

Molly,

It sounds like you were doing the berating. I am sure the lady you were talking to also thinks your a little nutty.

Now that you are sober, read your post and even you should agree.

Calm Down.

#38 Haltonjohn on 10.13.07 at 9:23 am

Garth,

Does this mean that the people who voted for you as a Conservative are now your enemies ??

I have no enemies. — Garth

#39 slg on 10.13.07 at 9:25 am

Garth:

Re: the Kyoto bill – if Dion does not vote against the throne speech – couldn’t they just do a reintroduce Bill C-30 by placing a new motion regarding Kyoto? If so, wouldn’t Jack Layton with all his blustering be obligated to approved the new motion which would include the bi-partisan Bill C-30?

Just wondering.

#40 slg on 10.13.07 at 9:39 am

I forgot to mention – doesn’t the Status Report on the Environment come in February as well?

#41 Leasa on 10.13.07 at 9:45 am

Seems like I’m not the only one who thinks there are bigger fish to fry than a simple greeting card list:

Bernie Farber of the Canadian Jewish Congress and Frank Dimant of B’nai Brith Canada praised what they called government outreach and said there should be no controversy.

“I don’t think there’s anything nefarious here whatsoever,” said Farber, who’s received greeting cards from various political parties for the past 20 years.

Dimant turned the tables and said anyone complaining about Harper’s Jewish new year greeting has a political agenda.

“I really do think there’s a very sinister motivation by individuals who are asking for an examination of where these lists came from or how they were accumulated,” Dimant said in an interview.

He welcomed the greeting, calling it a first for a Canadian prime minister, and said he hopes “it’s a tradition that prime ministers down the line will carry on.”

Harper has won praise from both the Canadian Jewish Congress and B’nai Brith for shifting Canada’s foreign policy to a more pro-Israel footing.

Harper’s office would not say how it compiled the mailing list, although Jewish phone directories for a number of Canadian cities are readily available on the Internet.

And the prime minister’s spokeswoman vowed to continue sending out greetings to specific groups for a variety of holidays.

~now, let’s talk access to info., is it a one way street and have we gone too far in protecting one and shunning another? Can privacy laws be bent and abused in government self interest? I’d say so. L

#42 Phil on 10.13.07 at 10:25 am

So Garth, you were elected as a result of using (at best) an immoral system.
A man of the high morals you attribute to yourself would have resigned his seat and stood for reelection.

There is nothing immoral, illegal or unethical about voter identification for electoral purposes. — Garth

#43 Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 at 10:46 am

Garth,

One word describes the database GIGO!

For those too young to recall what that acronym stands for it means ‘Garbage In / Garbage Out’, and is well known to computer people of days gone by. Regardless of the program, the accuracy of the data will determine the results.

As a quite wise professor in university said ‘All people are made of three parts; their experiential, cultural, and spiritual.’

I want to meet to people who think themselves so wise as to possess the intellect to write a computer program that can predict the behaviour of human beings. The equation would need to address all the experiential, cultural, and spiritual belief systems found in the total voter population. I believe the resultant would be infinity.

Mankind fools itself into thinking it has achieved a state of godhood. Then is amazed when it does not work out as they were so sure it would.

#44 Dube on 10.13.07 at 10:52 am

Dimant turned the tables and said anyone complaining about Harper’s Jewish new year greeting has a political agenda.
“I really do think there’s a very sinister motivation by individuals who are asking for an examination of where these lists came from or how they were accumulated,” Dimant said in an interview.

It’s been some time since I’ve read something so stunningly narrow and stupid. The man is obviously a partisan, but the issue is not. It transcends party lines. In fact it even transcends government lines into private sector (just curious, Dimant isn’t in business of collecting and selling such data, is he?). Maybe he should just print out business cards and leave them on the street with full disclosure of his personal information. If there are any identity thieves out there reading, forget about trying to hack the Winner’s website, this guy’s your man!

#45 Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 at 10:52 am

Regarding Harper’s ‘panel’ announcement…What happened to the proper democratic debate in the HoC for which we are paying MP’s to perform such duties?

John Manley is an enemy of Canada IMHO, and part of the SPP, NAU, and New World Order, or has everyone forgotten his role in promoting the NAU?

#46 jwlnler on 10.13.07 at 11:04 am

Hey Garth, I had volunteered to volunteer for a candidate in the NL Provincial 2007 election and all. I had no idea that parties complied lists of ‘supporters’, until I seen them call the people on these lists and ask whether they voted.

I’m not sure what it’s like federally, but provincially in NL, lists are sent to the campaign HQ of each political party of who has voted (in the presence of an Elections NL scrutinier) versus their lists of supporters.

Based on this information, candidates are able to figure out early on in the day whether they’re losing or not: this is done even faster than the official polling results are released to the public, seeing as polls don’t close until 8pm. As a result, most candidates know the relative election results before the polls have even closed.

Is this how it works federally? I can understand them keeping a list of party membership holders (to remind them about upcoming events, to ensure that have a ride to the polls on election day,etc..), but it does concern me that a sitting PM can drop a personalized card into people’s mailboxes, using the information complied through that CIMA system.

So Garth, now that you’re the Adviser on Constituency and Campaign outreach to the Official Opposition Leader, do you plan on getting Dion to pressure PMSH into amending the Elections Act? Such abuses of personal information (if your allegations on your blog are true) never happen again!

#47 jwlnler on 10.13.07 at 11:08 am

Correction, this ‘list of supporters’ is based on people with party membership in the party the candidate is running for. Each section of the office deals with a different set of “polling stations”. When they call a household and learn that one of their ‘supporters’ has voted, they mark it off in the color of their political party.

Then once the list of electors who voted recently comes into the campaign HQ ( in the presence of election structioners), they mark those who are on both lists with ‘checkmarks’, while those who voted but aren’t on the list with ‘X’s’. If it looks like they’re losing in a certain poll, a special effort will be made to contact supporters who haven’t voted yet!

Anyways, i’d like to learn more about this process!

#48 David Bakody on 10.13.07 at 11:11 am

Sorry Ladies and Gentlemen, but the breaking news on Lt. Gen Ricardo S. Sanchez. NYT’s spells out what millions know around the world about neo conservative policies of Demorcracy by Force. Perhaps some may feel this off topic but, back room stradegy by a selected few to dominate and control thier party and it’s members by spinning the truth is deadly not to mention very costly to taxpayers.

I have been alone in voice in stating that both Iraq and Afganistan are a total waste of time, money and lives in all respects, that have only fueled the Industry of War providing profits never heard of before in history. Gerneral Patryus’s Report on Iraq has now been proven via (Gen Sanchez) as a usless political stunt, so all Canadians must decide in their own mind that PMSH who once again pulled a trick out of GWB’s play book with doing the same by sending the timely selected group to Afghanistan to do his bidding. Will thier report be know as the John Petrayus Manley Reprot, only time and history will know. But this I do know, whatever the report states Afganistan is a disaster and it can only get worst and should PMSH get full control of Canada the worst for Canadians is sure to come. Your vote, your choice, stop and think and choose wisely.

#49 Bill R on 10.13.07 at 11:28 am

I don’t know what people are getting upset about over the federal parties having these data bases. If you’re concerned, then remember this – if you own a credit card, air miles card or travel to the US, the US governement has all this information on you. So what’s worse?

John Manley – liberal of convenience is where he wants to be – ready to replace Harper when he falls.

#50 Robert McClelland on 10.13.07 at 11:36 am

How would someone find out what information the Big Brother Party has collected on them? And is there a process to have that information removed from CIMS?

Not to my knowledge. But if the party has contacts you, for fundraising, for example, it is your right to ask how your data came into its hands. — Garth

#51 Robert McClelland on 10.13.07 at 11:39 am

If you’re concerned, then remember this – if you own a credit card, air miles card or travel to the US, the US governement has all this information on you.

Yes, but when I applied for those things it was stated in the agreement that information about me would be harvested and who would have access to it. I don’t recall agreeing to allow the Conservative Party to harvest info about me beyond the standard stuff from Elections Canada.

#52 Ike on 10.13.07 at 12:07 pm

Garth, whenever I tried to raise the issue of the seriousness of the political wrangling among Liberal colleagues in Quebec, you informed me that it was a LOCAL issue only, and should have no concern for me, or anyone in otheer parts of Canada.

Yet local situations have national repercussions in this day and age of the mass media. I was only trying to encourage that something must be done, and that Dion must be proactive in looking like a leader.

You insisted that this was only a Quebec issue. Now that the Liberals have nosedived in the polls, what will it take before we realize the seriousness of the situaion, and do something positive about it.

Looking to people like Bill Casey and Danny Williams for support will not help your case across Canada, and neither of those individuals have even been willing to publicly identify with the Liberal Party.

The name of the game is leadership. Let’s lead, and be more proactive and less reactive.

I believe you mischaracterize my comments. In any case, what would you like me to do about Liberal fortunes in Quebec? — Garth

#53 Ike on 10.13.07 at 12:08 pm

John MANley just could be the MAN.

#54 Zorpheous on 10.13.07 at 12:09 pm

Be careful about listing your blog address in the URI box, the Harperbots will mine every square inch of your life!!!!!

Sincerely,
Unmineable MB

By MB on 10.13.07 8:29 am

Too late, I’m already on Harper’s “Must be shot at earliest convenience – Christmas Card List”

Catherine

Data went into a secure system and was not then available for third-party, or inappropriate, usage. — Garth

By Catherine on 10.13.07 7:53 am

Database like CIMS are designed on SQL server structures that provide an User API, which control the access of the user. In order to “dump” the data in this case you would most likely need DBA access,… while Garth maybe a smart coockie, I do believe for a second he is able to master SQL Query and hack SQL Server Security.

Now I wonder where all the Con trolls are who howled about the Garth’s evil use of a plain mailing list from election Canada are today,… seems like this CIMS data tool goes way, way beyond that.

PS – To the CIMS database miners, please put this in my file,… pphhhttttppppp!!!!

#55 MJ on 10.13.07 at 12:15 pm

Garth, please advise me: is it legal/ethical/appropriate for the federal government’s MPs to share their collected data on their riding’s residents with provincial candidates of the same/similar party running in that same area?

Please: I really need to know this.

No. — Garth

#56 KH on 10.13.07 at 12:21 pm

So Garth, And I am in know way upset about this, but how would the Speaker of the House get my daughters address who is not on any voters list in order to send her a congrat letter for achieving high honors. I was actually pleased to have him acknowledge her but you know have me curious how he got her home address etc.

#57 PYOTRY PETROBITCH on 10.13.07 at 12:27 pm

I suspect, yet again, with revelations like this that this is to increase voter disillusionment and encourage lower and lower voter turnout.

By Steve on 10.13.07 6:46 am

PARTY SEATS BY ELECTION SYSTEM [ONTARIO]

Actual Comparable MMP* MMP

Liberal 71 49 59

PC 26 32 39

NDP 10 17 21

Green 0 9 10

*MMP calls for 129 ridings. Comparable MMP interpolates for 107 ridings, so as to be comparable with the current legislature.

Turnout tumble

Despite efforts to increase voter turnout, this election saw an all-time low.

VOTER TURNOUT AS A PER CENT OF VOTER LIST

1975 67.8%
1977 65.6
1981 58
1985 61.5
1987 62.7
1990 64.4
1995 62.9
1999 58.3
2003 56.9
2007 52.7

SOURCE: ELECTIONS CANADA

I also have a DIGITAL SYSTEM which I ONLY USE when I see either PMSH or one of his muzzled groupies; It’s called the SFS, raised solemnly in his direction … 1/2 the peace symbol!

#58 Leasa on 10.13.07 at 12:40 pm

Anyways, i’d like to learn more about this process!

By jwlnler on 10.13.07 11:08 am

That’s easy! Do what I do, volunteer as a scrutineer on election day! Get involved in the process. L

#59 jim on 10.13.07 at 12:41 pm

“There is nothing immoral, illegal or unethical about voter identification for electoral purposes. — Garth”

Garth, your just saying they cant send out christmas cards. Thats the immoral part!?

I referenced voter ID during a campaign. You are freebasing here. — Garth

#60 Herb on 10.13.07 at 12:54 pm

David Bakody,

you haven’t been alone, it’s just that rational voices are drowned out by official, self-serving propaganda.

Just as in the Communist Czechoslovakia I mentioned some weeks ago, “The truth is what remains after everything else has been frittered away.” I would rephrase that to “The truth is what remains when everything else has proved itself wrong.” The problem is to get ahead of this power curve.

I particularly like someone’s recent reference to the Tet Offensive. Yes, it beat the hell out of Charlie, but it proved the bankruptcy of the official line that had been cultivated for years, that everything in Vietnam was going swimmingly for the good guys. That’s when the US population woke up and started asking questions, and the Viet Cong’s tactical defeat eventually lead to the strategic victory.

#61 Rob Wiebe on 10.13.07 at 12:54 pm

By slg on 10.13.07 9:13 am

Hey SLG, I agree with you, Mr. Dion should NOT oppose the TS and allow the CPC to remain in power. As many people have noted, the longer Mr. Harper is in the public eye, the longer the agenda, incompetence, corruption and spite are noted. As you have noted, his chances to remain in power will weaken even more when many issues come to a head next spring.

There is a growing issue in Ottawa in which Mayor Larry O’Brien, a staunch conservative, is under investigation by the OPP for bribing an opponent to withdraw during the mayoral race, at the advice of Doug Finley.

Also, recent reports are showing that DND is wasting huge amounts of tax dollars with construction projects that are consistently overbudget. DND controls the largest inventory of assets and buildings in the federal government and will, under the CPC, grow to be an even larger wasteful behemoth. This is definitely something that will begin to concern Canadians as news gets out.

Finally, the Afghan panel, a blue ribbon one at that, is in place to deflect the issue of Afghanistan during an election. With it in place, Mr. Harper, Mr. MacKay and Mr. Bernier can refer to the panel ANYTIME a question of Afghanistan arises. It has to report back to Parliament early in the new year and I can guarantee it will report that Canada must continue with protecting the country’s poppies and its corrupt government.

Mr. Harper is trying to goad and embarrass Mr. Dion into opposing the TS so there can be an election that is not in the best interests of Canada. I say that the official opposition should stand proud beside Mr. Dion in support of the TS and take one for team Canada.

-R

Oh, and one more thing. Jack Layton knows that he stands to win more seats in BC, Sask and the Maritimes, that’s why he’s agitating to “go.”

#62 Kevin M on 10.13.07 at 1:01 pm

Robert, you have the right to ask what information is stored about you; to challenge it’s acuracy; to find out how it was collected and to have it removed.

Whats more interesting is Garth is clearly describing a scenario which is likely illegal, and is certainly unethical — that of keeping lists of voters to political affiliation.

It should go without saying that no one should be keeping lists of who is jewish or who is a conservative. These types of lists are extremely dangerous in the wrong hands, and in no way can anyone ensure that these databases are secure.

Heck, now that hackers know it’s there, I’d be amazed if it wasn’t quickly hacked. If they can collect embassy passwords, what makes anyone think they cant get into this stuff.

#63 Judy Roberts on 10.13.07 at 1:02 pm

Re Harper’s UNELECTED panel, we have heard so many complaints about an UNELECTED senate from the Harper Party.
So now PMSH himself has appointed an UNELECTED panel to do the work of his ministers and the corresponding parlimentary committee , how is that for hypocrisy, typical?

#64 slg on 10.13.07 at 1:06 pm

Garth – I see Jane Taber (pretending to be a journalist) is trashing you in her Hot or Not nonsense article today about fundraising.

How does this woman keep her job?

#65 jim on 10.13.07 at 1:10 pm

Garth: The Stronach campaign for leader of the then new CPC sold me a membership. I donated to my local MP…

I donated to you too.

Not a single Christmas card! NONE! EVER!!

The only Christmas card this house has ever gotten is some Paul Martin cards addressed to someone who has not resided in this home since 1994.

No cards from my MP, no cards from the PM, no cards from Stronach, no cards from you.

I think there needs to be an investigation into why I’m not getting cards.

#66 Captain George on 10.13.07 at 1:26 pm

They are at the Bloc…..they are off! Hairnet Duce starts off by a length, followed by Big Dipper, stuck in the gate is Lucky Libby. CRAPNESS is a scratch.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=01895219-7750-4e71-b16e-e2a08e6667b2&k=8447

#67 Blackie on 10.13.07 at 1:35 pm

Hey Garth! I see you are in the G&M in a column of “Who’s hot and Who’s Not” As special Fundraiser for the libs, you’re in the Not part of the column. It appears that you’re trashing Tom Flanagan’s book on the Harper team. You say it has a hidden agenda to “hoodwink” voters by making popular promises and then once in majority, bring in a fundamentalist agenda. In order to stop this, you’re asking people to send you money. What bs! Is that the best idea you can come up with to raise money? It must be a good book. I’m going to read it.

#68 Lawrence Garvin on 10.13.07 at 1:55 pm

Garth Today – I have no enemies. — Garth

Garth Ten Days Ago – The Harper doctrine of rampant decentralization and shifting of powers to the provinces will hardly lead to a “restoration” of our country but to a balkanization, ultimately rendering us all weaker. The destruction of this nation-state is something I will oppose endlessly. You are the enemy. — Garth 10.03.07 3:13 pm

It’s amazing how much contempt you have for your readers.

Amazing how much of a literalist, humourless militant you are. Lighten up. You’ll live longer. — Garth

#69 KPN on 10.13.07 at 2:01 pm

By Georgine on 10.13.07 9:18 am

Check out http://redtory.blogspot.com/

Manley’s Foregone Conclusion

An interesting read. Apparently Manley has already voiced his opinions. Never did like the guy. As another poster said, maybe he’s setting himself up to take over Harper’s job.

#70 James- Chatham on 10.13.07 at 2:02 pm

There is nothing immoral, illegal or unethical about voter identification for electoral purposes. — Garth

By Phil on 10.13.07 10:25 am

Phil,

the immoral, unethical and maybe illegal aspect of this is when government information, that is information gathered by an MP for the purposes of conducting government business in their role as MP, is used for party political electioneering purposes, that is by an incumbant MP who is now running for re-election.

When an election is called, the MP ceases to be the represenative of the constituancy and therefore should not have access to any personal information collected for government purposes.

#71 Lawrence Garvin on 10.13.07 at 2:11 pm

Amazing how much of a literalist, humourless militant you are. Lighten up. You’ll live longer.

I laugh every time I read this blog… So is it now your position that you were joking when you called Jim “the enemy” or are you claiming that you were joking when you claimed “no enemies.” Help a poor literalist out here, Garth. (quickly, before I become “militant” LOL).

#72 Leasa on 10.13.07 at 2:12 pm

Hi again Garth! You probably are not wondering why Leasa has so much time to bother me today. Of course I’ll tell ya anyway. I’m tired. I made the decision to kick back today and unwind. I sit with my laptop, watching the wind blow from a cozy spot in my living room. I’m also catching up on some correspondence and reading of various news items. I am doing my best effort to ignore the pile of laundry and ironing awaiting my attention. Anyway, Garth, I know this is off topic, but since we may have a federal election very soon, this may give you cause for concern, open letter: Elections Canada & Elections Ontario:
To Whom it may Concern:

At our most recent Ontario election, I had the pleasure of being a scrutineer. It was an honour to observe this voting procedure and I learned a lot. I do have a couple of concerns that I feel in important to share with you.

My first concern is the showing of additional identification upon voting. During the day I became aware of senior citizens refusing to show the identification and getting very angry. More than a couple left without voting. We must do a better job of letting citizens know and understand why we are now asking for the extra identification. I have listened to many elderly say, ‘I have voted for 50 years and have never had to prove that I’m not a liar before’. They don’t understand, and many stayed away from the polls over this issue.

There was a lot of confusion at the three polling stations I oversaw. Many long time voters were somehow left off of the voting list, myself included. People take this personally. The lady filling out the forms so the dropped people were able to vote had a long, long line-up. Some lost patience and walked out without voting.

I also saw people who came in with their cards marked ‘polling station 202’ which was the correct station only to find it was a mistake on their card, they had to find their home location on a map and be sent to a different location. For some this was an additional 20 or 30 minute drive. I suspect many gave up.

Then there were loud complaints of a husband and wife at the same address having completely different areas to vote in.

We must make it easy for people, especially seniors to vote. We must communicate changes loud, clear and often and the reasons for the changes.

I sincerely believe it is everyone’s duty to vote, it is a right gained by those before us who fought and gave up their lives for our democracy. It is an honour to vote.

I trust you will work very hard to make our next election day a proud and happy experience for all.

Sincerely,
Leasa ******

#73 Herb on 10.13.07 at 2:29 pm

That’s what you get for trying to be subtle, Garth. How are your political friends like the Garborator supposed to know that the protrusion in your cheek is your tongue, and not a wad of Toblerone or chewing tobacco?

#74 Lawrence Garvin on 10.13.07 at 2:40 pm

No need to ask what the protrusion in your mouth is, Herb.

LOL

#75 Canuck on 10.13.07 at 2:42 pm

Please clarify what the law is. I’m okay with Elections Canada having my name and address, but what I’m not okay with is someone adding stuff about me that I did not authorize. What right does anyone have invading my privacy by collecting data about me without my permission and using it for their own purposes?

How do I know if I’m Jewish when I’m sent a birthday card from persons unknown that the reason it was sent to me is because they’re in the market of selling cards and they’re keeping my information for marketing purposes to sell me additional cards specific to my religion. I can think of ‘other’ less innocent reasons for collecting data about people of the Jewish faith.

I do realize by being on the Internet I give up quite a bit of privacy. Cookies are collected and information about me gets transferred from my computer. The Internet and privacy issues have yet to be tested in court.

—–

Why do political parties feel they’re entitled to collect information about me without my authorization using information from Elections Canada as their base?

#76 KPN on 10.13.07 at 2:55 pm

Sorry – OT

MP to ask for support
Ousted Casey will welcome help in re-election bid
By STEPHEN MAHER Ottawa Bureau
Sat. Oct 13 – 5:29 AM

http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/NovaScotia/952046.html

“The deal is not contained in a signed agreement but in an exchange of letters between provincial Finance Minister Michael Baker and his federal counterpart, Jim Flaherty.

“I hope the deal’s as good as it sounds,” Mr. Casey said. “I cannot decipher from the letters what the impact is going to be for Nova Scotia.”

He points out that the letters acknowledge that the federal budget did amend the Atlantic accord that was signed in 2005, as he had previously insisted and the government had always denied.

“This is the first time I’ve ever seen them acknowledge this,” Mr. Casey said. “When I met with Mr. Flaherty after the budget, we were discussing the accord, and he said, ‘There’s not a comma changed.’ In that line is what I’ve been saying since March 19. They’ve finally acknowledged that they changed the accord. That’s why I was fired and why I’m not welcome back.”

#77 Lawrence Garvin on 10.13.07 at 2:55 pm

The Internet and privacy issues have yet to be tested in court.

There is no privacy on the internet and precious little anywhere else… I don’t worry about it much myself which is why I use my own name and encourage others to do the same. Live out loud, as the saying goes…

And if you’re really concerned with privacy you should probably avoid the internet altogether.

#78 Lawrence Garvin on 10.13.07 at 2:56 pm

Hey Leasa, good letter. Thanks for helping out, too.

#79 Emilie on 10.13.07 at 2:57 pm

You talk about CRAPERS using personal information for political gains?

When Deceivin Stevie was running to eliminate the unfortunate Stockwell Day (Flanagan was behind the rebellion) I was called by the party and asked who I would vote for. I said not Harper. (I met Steve at a riding meeting and was not impressed. The guy has only scorn for his fellow humans) Well guess what… I did not receive a ballot in the mail even though at that time I had joined the CA because I kinda like Day.

Steve is surrounded by manipulators, cheaters, liars – just like hisself.

#80 Lawrence Garvin on 10.13.07 at 2:58 pm

I’m curious about this line in your disclaimer… The list is then combed to separate the names of those who hate my guts.

Do you likewise comb through submissions here for people who “hate your guts”? Do you make attempts to gain additional information on people who oppose you?

Are you trying to sound like a whackjob, or is this an accident? — Garth

#81 Lawrence Garvin on 10.13.07 at 3:03 pm

Garth – Are you trying to sound like a whackjob, or is this an accident?

It’s a simple question, how about answering it? Your insults only draw attention to the fact that you are avoiding it.

#82 Emilie on 10.13.07 at 3:06 pm

Make that “kinda liked Day”. I no longer do since he has fallen in to parroting Deceivin Steve.

Never could understand how anyone can sell themselves to their party leader or the party line. I just have to take it that they really are what they represent….. therefore Day is not the principled, honest politician he at first appeared to be.

#83 Ike on 10.13.07 at 3:08 pm

“In any case, what would you like me to do about Liberal fortunes in Quebec?” — Garth

You have relationships right to the top brass of the Liberal Party of Canada. Instruct Stephane Dion that he must get it fixed. Don’t be passive about it. Use whatever clout that you have to inform the Quebec wing of the party that they are not only hurting themselves, but the rest of us as well.

Perhaps you could even offer your skills as a mediator to negotiate a truce in a transparent way that will satisfy that Canadian public that the matter was dealt with honourably and with civility.

#84 Canuck on 10.13.07 at 3:15 pm

Leasa,

I also worked Ontario election day and night and where my polling station was, they did accept two voters from another polling station who were sent there by mistake. No point irritating them by refusing to allow them to vote at a polling station where they were not supposed to be.

There are bugs in the system…quite a few voters received duplicate cards. Since this was the first time ID was required, it takes time for voters to adapt to new procedures. Sure there were a few disgruntled that complained about having to produce their ID, but everyone did. And next time they come to vote, they won’t think it’s so odd to carry their ID with them. When voters present their voter registration cards, without ID, there is no way of knowing whether that card belongs to them. Improvements are being made to procedures but they must not be so intrusive they put voters off because procedures should take second place to the aim of getting voters to cast their ballots.

Next time the voters list will be more accurate and there will be fewer duplications of registration cards sent out.

People over 58 represented 75% of their group in the last federal election and from what I saw Wednesday night of the provincial election; they remain the majority age group to exercise their mandate. People came with canes, walkers and in a couple of instances were assisted by helpers because of vision handicaps. I’m more worried about young people who don’t have any disabilities that don’t vote than what I am about seniors. Perhaps compulsory civics classes need to be introduced in Ontario’s curriculum? English and mathematics already are compulsory; one civics course needs to be added for high school graduation.

A beautiful young girl cast her ballot for the first time. She was dressed in a blue/green plaid skirt with a matching dark blue sweater, dark blue socks and patterned shoes to match her outfit. Her round cherubic face would cause people to mistake her for a 12-year-old. My granddaughter cast hers for the first time that night too and it was my privilege to see her at the poll where I was.

#85 Canuck on 10.13.07 at 3:18 pm

Lawrence Garvi

And if you’re really concerned with privacy you should probably avoid the internet altogether.

Nope…the Internet will catch up with my privacy concerns and adapt it to me rather than the other way around. Privacy concerns will be tested in the courts and legislation passed that protects it.

#86 Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 at 3:41 pm

Harper’s ultimate goal seems to be Canuckistan, just as some members of the U.S. Congress have made the accusation.

This is not 1867. We are a nation, not a loose menagerie of provinces and territories. We have a national interest for all Canadians.

Harper is like Mike Harris, a dinosaur with antiquainted ideology that simply is not realistic.

His best hope is to return to Alberta, or one of the Red States in the U.S. where he will fit right in.

What a mess this nation is in. People’s lives are on hold, they have no clear security for tomorrow, and the U.S. Far Right is too cowardly to even admit they have been wrong.

The year is 2007. Those wanting to,live in it should do so, and let the Far Right CONservatives go live together somewhere other than amongst those of us who respect each other, and understand progressive social thinking that contributes to all the people. I think we would all be happier.

#87 Greg W., Oakville on 10.13.07 at 4:01 pm

Mr Garth TurnerMP,

Is PMSH god ‘big brother’?
If you haven’t read the book you should.
George orwell’s 1984.
http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/search?keywords=george%20orwell&pageSize=10&page=1

Todays CBC radio show Quirk&Quarks
has another spot on ‘Losing our Permafrost’, last segment, you can down lost it.
http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/07-08/oct13.html

Methane is a very power full green house gas!
Could this be the start of global heating runnaway effect?!

Oct. 10 news release from the Canadian Nation Energy Board.
http://www.neb.gc.ca/clf-nsi/rthnb/nwsrls/2007/nwsrls29-eng.html

Is this another OMEN that peak-oil and Peak-gas is already here?!

I cot a glims of Mr DionMP on CPAC on Fri. afternoon. (You seem to have recently had a hair cut. I could only see one side.) It’s to bad we did not see more of Mr. Dion on the 6pm news.
I suppose that’s the trick that need to be figure out how to happen, in a positive regular way? More positive newspaper coverage would also help.
But the corporate mass media isn’t payed by there bosses to always represent reality.
Being avalibale to the front line reportes can’t hurt. Finding a way through the Edits is next.

E-mail newsletter to the critical-thinking (willing) masses might help counter the Neo-Con propaganda machine to.

What kind of world do you and your familly want to live in?
An over populated, over heated, toxic/polluted, energy depleted, clean water and food scarce world?

Remember you can’t eat, drink, or breath money, I don’t care how much you think you have. It might delay you personally being effected, but only temperarally.

Resistance is not futile.
Think globaly and act localy when you can.

#88 Greg W., Oakville on 10.13.07 at 4:04 pm

Mr Garth TurnerMP,

Correction,
Losing the permafrost, link is for the last ‘ 2 ‘ segments.
http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/07-08/oct13.html

#89 John G on 10.13.07 at 4:24 pm

“People’s lives are on hold, they have no clear security for tomorrow”

By Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 3:41 pm

it’s about time you told the truth about yourself Billy…..I have a suggestion…stop your whinning and bitching for just a moment and do something about your life…..clearly the rest of the country is moving on and seeing the light….isn’t it time for you?

#90 David Bakody on 10.13.07 at 5:03 pm

By Herb on 10.13.07 12:54 pm

Thanks Herb, War/Armed Conflict is a complex issue. It may seem to some I go on about a bit much, but it is hard for me as an ex vet to stand by and see how neo cons are selling lies. They play on nationalism, and if you are not or troops you are scum bagss. I have managed to explain the difference of suppoting the troops and supporting the big business of the War Machine. Un tendered contracts, no receipts required, political dog and pony shows and inbeded jorunalists (army journalists who words are vetted). In any rate one person at a time. You know Herb, I have not met one WW II vet who believes this conflict is worth the lives lost, or see any goverment making a difference at the end of day.

#91 Captain George on 10.13.07 at 5:08 pm

Et tu Manley?

I don’t like it. Does Pepsi help Coca Cola? Timmy’s help Coffee Time? At times Manley looks like he drank too much Blue Kool-Aid.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071012.afghan13/BNStory/National

#92 keith phibbs on 10.13.07 at 5:20 pm

The truth about it all.
Cannot wait to hear from the troll patrol now.
Harper rushing into election to avoid allegations of party misdeeds: Dion
Last Updated: Friday, October 12, 2007 | 6:10 PM ET
CBC News
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/10/12/dion-harper.html
Also very interesting article.
http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/10/12/abortions-study.html

#93 John G on 10.13.07 at 5:23 pm

“The more I see of Harper the more I like him. I realize Harper has annoyed some of his more right wing supporter since he became prime minister, but Canada needs to be governed from the center and Harper understands this. This panel is about Afghanistan, but it is also about reaching out the old Progressive Conservative wing of the party. You know what? It’s working, and I am close to declaring myself an unabashed Stephen Harper fan.

Things like reaching out to the old PC party, governing from the center, and his not so subtle bitch-slap of Newfoundland premier Danny Williams the other day are winning over the moderate Conservatives of whom he needs their support so he can get a majority government in the next election (this seems like a good place to note that I live in the 103 seat Province of Ontario). If Prime Minister Stephen Harper can get a majority in Ottawa and govern uninterrupted for a few years he may become a prime minister for the ages.”

This post was written by Reg, a native of Mitchieville.

Ah.. comments like that must make an old PC’er like yourself Garth feel all warm and fuzzy….no?

Just ask John Tory. Worked well for him. — Garth

#94 Greg W., Oakville on 10.13.07 at 5:38 pm

Mr Garth TurnerMP,

For anyone who is interested.
Link to a Geothermal company whos flyer I picked up at an energy home show in Oakville.
http://www.waterfurnace.ca

or google, ‘geothermal’ to learn more.

Heat and cool your insulted home or office without adding to the global heating problem! Also remember the peak-oil and peak-gas thing, we’ll be out soon, with prices only headed up!

Maybe make some of your on electricity with home solar and wind to run the fan and pump in your geothermal energy exchange system, or recharge your plug-in hybread car?
Maybe store some for later with
VRB Power home system.
http://www.vrbpower.com/technology/index.html

On the hottest days and coolest nights when the wind isn’t blowing use clean energy from CANDU’s. 54% of ontario’s elecrticity now comes from clean safe CANDU’s.
No greenhouse gasses, no smog and air pollution, low volume of managable waste, low cost electricity made by home made world class Canadian technology!
For more info.
http://www.aecl.ca/
http://cna.ca/

Canada uses lots of energy now!
Everything we use comes from the ground and energy is used to change it into stuff we use and need in this modern world. We are running out of oil and gas, sooner that you may know!
And we also have BIG troubles coming with global heating.
Canadian Nuclear electrical power can help us all stop global heating
from burning fasil fuels,oil,gas,coal,
and keep the lights on without killing our only planets environment.

Reducing the worlds population would also help. Constant growth on a finite world is not sustainable!
Some have suggested that a world population level of about 500 million is sustainable in the long run. How to get to that level is the big question? Can it happen in an orderly natural way, or will we end up killing everyone by the use of WMD? ‘All’ the mad sociopathes already have control of lots of them!

PMSH seems to also want more weapons for war. War uses brute force to take what you want or are addicted to, oil.
You can instill consent for war by instilling fear in the masses.
That’s what Hitler did, and got good people like YOU to do terrable things to other human beings like YOU.
What will you do?

Have you heard some people say that 9/11 was an inside job?
Are you a critical thinker? See
the movie ‘Loose Change’. 1 1/2 hours.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501

Have you seen the move ‘Zeitgeist’.
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
It covers a different way to look at world events, not covered by the corporate run media.

Who do you want as the PM of Canada?
What kind of world are we making for our kids? Who is behind the curtains?
Do they even care about you and the future?
Do we really have a choise?

Resistance is not futile!

#95 keith phibbs on 10.13.07 at 5:39 pm

“day are winning over the moderate Conservatives of whom he needs their support so he can get a majority government in the next election ”
John G
So he didn’t have their support in the last election?

#96 Catherine on 10.13.07 at 6:03 pm

John Manley is an enemy of Canada IMHO, and part of the SPP, NAU, and New World Order, or has everyone forgotten his role in promoting the NAU?

By Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 10:52 am

Bill, John Manley is born and raised Canadian; unlike you – a transplanted American new Canadian. People may agree or disagree with his politics, but, stating that he is enemy of Canada, is just pure garbage. Bill, given what I have gathered from your postings, you are seem to be the real enemy of Canada. You would probably love to round up those that disagree with you and send them to those special “re-education” camps.

#97 Jonnay on 10.13.07 at 6:08 pm

John G … tsk tsk tsk … remember, as a Con, O Mighty Lord Harper speaks, not you! So hush, you’ll live longer.

And what’s up with the comments calling “racist” anyone who just mentions something Jewish?

#98 Canuck on 10.13.07 at 6:14 pm

John G

subtle bitch-slap of Newfoundland premier

You really believe leaders of provinces need to be bitch-slapped? If you do, I extend my sympathies because you couldn’t be more wrong.

#99 Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 at 6:20 pm

By Catherine on 10.13.07 6:03 pm

Nice comment, and so typical from you Chatty Cathy! Now, go kneel and genuflect before your poster of Steve.

Manly, as with most enemies, is within. History shows they are the most devious of all enemies. Manly is Pro-NAU, Pro American, and NOT a Liberal, but certainly is a Lieberal as you and other neo-CON’s like to use that term. Soon he will be one of your very own. Perfect match too!

#100 Canuck on 10.13.07 at 6:20 pm

Catherine

You seem to take great delight in diminishing the Canadianship of those who choose to become Canadians? That’s too bad you place so little value in the immigrants that formed Canada. Canada is a young country –we all immigrant from somewhere else. Mine are from England, where are yours from? Canadians are hybrids of other nationalities.

The enemy of Canada is the citizens that don’t accept immigrants into this country because our birth rate is declining and it will be immigrants that stabalize our population, lend us growth and give us hope that we’ll exist as a nation.

#101 Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 at 6:27 pm

By John G on 10.13.07 4:24 pm

Your are right John. Here is TRUTH. You are an imbecilic Arse, incapable of breaking your addiction the Harper’s Blue Kool-Aide. Now go suck on a lemon. It will imporve your arse kissing ability and increase your pucker power.

I am so pleased I irritate the living hell out of you, Chatty Cathy and the rest of the Death Star wannabe Trolls.

#102 KH on 10.13.07 at 6:35 pm

Bill, I too think you crossed a line with your comment concerning Mr.Manley. There are many politicians that I would not even sit down with to have a coffee but I do not consider them a enemy of their own country.

#103 Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 at 6:51 pm

Rice says Kremlin’s consolidated power endangers democracy

Is there no country Rice and Bush think capable of kicking their idiotic arse?

Leadership dooms Iraq strategy: ex-commander

Retired General Richardo Sanchez does a BIG IED BLAST on Bush’s Iraq management. Funny how it is on Canadian news, but cannot be found on American news? Strange, eh? Not, I think!

A “catastrophic failure” in the Bush administration’s leadership of the Iraq war has mired the United States in a nightmarish conflict with no clear way out, the former top U.S. commander in Iraq said on Friday.

#104 Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 at 6:55 pm

By KH on 10.13.07 6:35 pm

Manley has been right in the forefront of the NAU/SPP, and IMO has no loyalty to Canada. He is, at best, a Collaborator, at worst a traitor. He lusts for power, and if you can’t see that, then open your eyes.

Apparently my memory is a little more acute than yours?

#105 K Murphy on 10.13.07 at 7:01 pm

In early 2006, during the federal election campaign, I received a personally addressed envelope in the mail from the conservative candidate in my riding. I do not remember if the envelope was ‘franked’ so I won’t state that it was. But inside was a letter, also addressed to me personally – and the letter began with ‘as you are a valued member of our Conservative Party, you are being contacted…’.

I have never belonged to the Conservative party in my life. In fact, I actively worked for a different political party. I immediately called the local Conservative party headquarters and demanded to know why my name was on a list of their members – no response; and then demanded to have my name removed from their mailing list immediately. The person on the other end of the telephone didn’t know what to say – she sounded shocked, but agreed to my request without question. I also couldn’t figure out how my new mailing address was known to them as I had just moved to that address within the previous two months. Scary, isn’t it!?

#106 got rope? on 10.13.07 at 7:13 pm

“No data has been mined from the almost 70,000 comments submitted to this blog.”

There`s not much to mine, I recommend logging the deadwood.

#107 Charles Oxley on 10.13.07 at 7:20 pm

Harper has won praise from both the Canadian Jewish Congress and B’nai Brith for shifting Canada’s foreign policy to a more pro-Israel footing.

By Leasa on 10.13.07 9:45 am

Good day to you, Leasa and all. I take a differing view of Israel, but that’s fine.

I figure that until anyone actually visits Lebanon, Israel, Syria and places around that part of the world, is allowed to walk freely and ask questions, none of us will ever really know what happens. I have never been there, and since the stroke, my traveling days are finished.

The MSM is good for lining bird cages with, so for direct and real, up-to-the-minute news, there is only the ‘net, because no one controls it.

A few sites report it is blatantly obvious that Israel continually asks for, and gets billions from Washington (including nukes), that while America increases its’ debt load their ‘vets and others have to sleep in shelters or on streets whereas the power brokers dine on caviar and drink champagne.

Next lifetime, all change! The first will be last, and the last, first. I prefer our country to stay neutral and to be known as a peacekeeping nation, willing to help those who ask for and need it.

I have no doubt that New Orleans would be close to being rebuilt by now if we took this route. For whatever reason, the current leaders chose not to.

Nevertheless, it is a delightfully gorgeous, sunny fall day here in Kelowna.

Cheers!

#108 KPN on 10.13.07 at 7:45 pm

Bill, John Manley is born and raised Canadian; unlike you – a transplanted American new Canadian. People may agree or disagree with his politics, but, stating that he is enemy of Canada, is just pure garbage. Bill, given what I have gathered from your postings, you are seem to be the real enemy of Canada. You would probably love to round up those that disagree with you and send them to those special “re-education” camps.

By Catherine on 10.13.07 6:03 pm

Catherine – you remind me of Anne Coulter. I totally take offense to your above post. I happen to live on a street where probably half of the people are first generation Canadians. They chose this country because they thought at the time it was a better country than their native country.

As a 2nd generation Canadian, I also consider Manley an enemy of this country if he supports, as we know he does, SPP, NAU, etc. These organizations are unlike the EU where they at least are trying to raise the standards of the citizens of those within the EU, contary to the SPP & NAU, controlled by the richest within these countries, to lower the standards to the lowest common denominator. Just look at Canada’s wanting to lower the pesticides to those allowed in the USA. Next it will be Mexico whose standards are even lower. Did anyone ever see a program about the pesticides used in growing Roses in Mexico. Sickening.

And more than half of our veggies which we consume in the winter come from countries like Chile and Mexico and the US. No wonder cancer rates have increased dramatically.

So yes, I say Manley is an enemy of Canada. I didn’t like him when he was a Liberal Minister and I don’t trust him. See my earlier comment above.

Get your head of the sand Catty Catherine.

#109 KH on 10.13.07 at 7:46 pm

Actually Bill, your memory is no more accurate then mine own, I remember clearly the positions that Mr.Manley has taken as well as other positions other politicians have taken over the last four decades. I do not even though I fervently disagree with some of them consider them to be enemies of the country. So at best he is a collaborator and at worst a traitor. I think you need to step back and take a walk and get some fresh air Bill, this room is getting to you.

#110 Leasa on 10.13.07 at 7:51 pm

By Canuck on 10.13.07 3:15 pm

Good Evening, I am glad things went a bit better at your station. Of course as a scrutineer, I could not have any say or influence to help out that day. Just quietly watch and observe. Our station sounded much stricter than yours. By the book. Not in the right place, move on.

In Holland the voter turn out is something like 95% consistently. You are right on the money about more education of our young. In Holland ‘civics’ is taught from a young age and on. Believe me ALL DUTCH know their parties, platforms, policy and exactly how their system works. They are taught how important their vote is and why. Maybe because of the fact that 60 years ago all democracy itself was in jeopardy and they learned what a communist regime can do.

We definitely need more taught in our schools. Not just in highschool, but it should start very young with what we used to call ‘current events’. When I was in grade school current events was taught every day, where we would examine newspapers and discuss the stories. Each child had a turn bringing in the story in that day’s paper that interested him/her the most and discussion would follow. I noted that either of my children had such a class.

We need to do more. We need to get the ‘kinks’ out of our electoral system. We need also to pay attention to our elderly because for them, voting is so very important.

Communication & Education. Leasa

#111 Molly on 10.13.07 at 8:05 pm

Dion’s new corporate tax thang. Yep let’s give all the power to the unelected. Now that’s progressive. Sitting on the fence.

#112 John G on 10.13.07 at 9:01 pm

And what’s up with the comments calling “racist” anyone who just mentions something Jewish?

By Jonnay on 10.13.07 6:08 pm

Jonnay…I never understand what you’re talking about?????

You really believe leaders of provinces need to be bitch-slapped? If you do, I extend my sympathies because you couldn’t be more wrong.

By Canuck on 10.13.07 6:14 pm

Canuck…if you read again you’ll realize it’s not my quote….

You are an imbecilic Arse, incapable of breaking your addiction the Harper’s Blue Kool-Aide. Now go suck on a lemon. It will imporve your arse kissing ability and increase your pucker power.

Bill..you always demonstrate my point so perfectly…now aren’t you late for BINGO?

#113 Molly on 10.13.07 at 9:16 pm

“The United Nations human
rights committee was so
concerned about Canada’s
lack of progress on
homelessness and poverty
that it asked the Canadian
government to report
annually, instead of every
four years”
http://www.chumirethicsfoundation.ca/files/pdf/SHELTER.pdf

#114 Charles Oxley on 10.13.07 at 9:24 pm

A lady tells the obvious. Women are far more intelligent, realistic and sane than men!

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Naomi_Klein_explains_how_we_willingly_1013.html

#115 Charles Oxley on 10.13.07 at 9:32 pm

Why on earth is she worried about something that is none of her business?

America needs to re-focus on it’s own, not somewhere else.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071013/D8S8EQ000.html

#116 DJ on 10.13.07 at 9:48 pm

Just imagine how some governments could misuse such a database.

Sure now it is for sending Holiday cards. Who says it can’t be used later for say a CRA audit ?????

#117 John G on 10.13.07 at 10:04 pm

SUSAN DELACOURT
OTTAWA BUREAU

OTTAWA—Former prime minister Jean Chretien says in his new book that he should have fired Paul Martin as finance minister in 2000, more than three years before Martin went on to replace him in the job.

Chretien, who refers to the Martinites as “self-serving goons,” said he was ready to fire Martin on the spot, but he was talked out of it by his chief of staff, Jean Pelletier, and principal secretary Eddie Goldenberg.

In hindsight, Chretien says, Martin should have been ousted.

“I was annoyed enough for a day or two to think of removing him from Finance, firing the conspirators on his staff, and cancelling the government contracts with his friends and advisers at Earnscliffe, I was talked out of it by Jean Pelletier and Eddie Goldenberg, who were concerned about the financial community’s reaction,” Chretien writes. “Both were to regret their advice and I soon regretted my decision to keep him.”

Chretien writes that Martin was increasingly becoming the champion of all those who weren’t getting what they wanted with the Prime Minister, whether on cabinet posts or on policy matters.

Wherever Chretien was saying No, Martin was saying a quiet Yes.

“No prime minister could live with this type of situation for long. All the confusion was extremely disruptive and potentially destructive.”

Oh boy Garth..even I now feel bad for you….can I now make a suggestion…..place gun firmly against your temple…..(just kidding)

Did I miss something? Are Chretien and Martin back in power? No? Then, who cares? — Garth

#118 Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 at 10:15 pm

By Leasa on 10.13.07 7:51 pm

You have well defined the crux of our state as citizens. BRAVO!

#119 Bill-Muskoka on 10.13.07 at 10:17 pm

aren’t you late for BINGO?

By John G on 10.13.07 9:01 pm

No. I do not gamble and waste my money on such frivolous endeavors. You, on the other hand probably do.

#120 KH on 10.13.07 at 10:20 pm

KPN, And since I do not agree with your comments in this room in regards to certain political conversations, should I consider you an enemy of my country, If I am a LPC member, should I consider the CPC and NDP as enemies of the country, think about what your saying. People espouse political opinions because they believe them to be correct and in the best interests of the country,province and or municipalities, win you do not agree with them, that does not give you the right to question their loyalty to this nation. I do not agree with Garth on quite a few of his statements but I have never doubted that he is a patriot and a loyal Canadian.

#121 John G on 10.13.07 at 10:49 pm

Did I miss something? Are Chretien and Martin back in power? No? Then, who cares? — Garth

You’re right,i’m sorry..this negative P.R doesn’t affect today’s Liberals…I mean corruption,powerstruggles,
infighting etc..that’s not continuing any longer in the current Liberal party….you must be so proud…

#122 Zorpheous on 10.13.07 at 10:51 pm

40% majority territory..nice..not much to say that I already haven’t said except all the BRAVADO and gossip of your recent columns are making you look like a fool…please keep it up….oh and about that bet….

By John G on 10.13.07 1:35 am

Hey John G., just forty percent? Yesterday you were crowing very loudly that Harper had 51%. WOW!!! Harper drops 11% in the polls over night.

#123 Canuck on 10.13.07 at 11:03 pm

Leasa,

The poll where I worked had a turnout of just over 70%. My tiny community must be doing somthing right that other communities aren’t doing? However, we would have a much greater turnout if more young people voted. It’s imperative that the Ontario government re-introduce civics classes as a compulsory subject for grade 12 graduation.

We had a man show up wearing a wool scarf over his face. The scarf had nothing to do with privacy of religion and the police could have been called because it was a mask. But the person in charge of all our polls decided to just ignore him. There is nothing in the Canada Election Act that requires a photograph of a person in order to vote. People that show ID with pictures of themselves, such as driver’s licences, are not compared to the person presenting that type of ID in order to vote. All that’s needed is the person’s name and address on a government produced piece of ID. Also acceptable is a blank cheque from a bank or major credit card that has no picture. Had the police been called, the incident would have been blown out of proportion and that was what he was trying to do. He voted and left. There were no islamic women that came with veils, but had they done so, they too would have been allowed to vote had they acceptable ID (which does not require a picture of them for comparison.) 🙂

Wise people ran the group of polls where I worked. I’m hoping I’ll get a job for the federal election–great to see the people in my community casting their ballots and exercising their franchise. Perhaps young people will cast theirs in the federal election (but I somehow doubt it). That’s too bad when people don’t vote because it’s the only time they have a voice and to disregard their ability to change the governments we vote for should be regarded as the responsibility of every person that lives in a democracy. Older people know it and younger people must be convinced they too need to do everything in their power which consists of putting an ‘x’ beside the person you feel best represents your values and ideas. Compulsory civics is one way of teaching younger people they bear that obligation.

#124 Bob R on 10.13.07 at 11:10 pm

Harper is planning ahead. You never know when particular lists will come in handy for arranging transport. It took one of his predecessors years to get it all down pat and that was the leader of a very meticulous bunch of people.

#125 Canuck on 10.13.07 at 11:14 pm

Leasa, that was called Show and Tell when I went to elementary school. We cut out articles in the newspapers or magazines that interested us and it was discussed by the entire class or we brought things from home that were important or interesting to us. Students from different cultures brought things to school that gave insight into their world. Discussion about the articles and things helped connect me with my fellow students. They were valuable. Social studies introduced later in the curriculum taught about forms of governments–we had mock elections and discovered how important it was for each of us to vote. The teacher demonstrated it by forbidding parts of the class to vote, then counting the ballots, and then holding the election again with all of us voting. Sometimes the result was the same, other times it changed because we were given the privilege to pick whom we thought was the best. There were times one vote made the difference and we didn’t know which ‘one’ vote it was.

#126 Ike on 10.13.07 at 11:20 pm

How many blows can a person take in one day? First the tragic news that the Liberals are 12% behind the Cons in the polls, and now this Chretien-Martin debacle. And in public yet.

What is poor Paul Martin to do? This is the division that has been hurting the party. We had hoped that it was forgotten and buried, but now old wounds that have been festering will only open up again.

This is the last thing that the present embattled leadership needed.

Surely they can deal with these things in a better way than to keep airing our dirty laundry in public.

Where will it end? When will it stop? This is not what Stephane Dion needs right now. Surely the Liberal Party’s wounds are self-inflicted when we should be fighting the honourable members opposite.

We used to pride ourselves in staying out of conflict publicly while the Cons were always fighting among themselves.
Something is going in the wrong direction here, and it needs to be fixed, and soon if complete disaster is to be avoided (if it is not already too late).

#127 Greg W., Oakville on 10.13.07 at 11:32 pm

Mr Garth TurnerMP,

Do you think our climate change denier
PMSH has seen these picture of the North?
http://groovygreen.com/groove/?p=2011

Man made global heating is even starting to effect ciber-space and the sims.
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/?p=321

PMSH is starting to talk the talk, but he is only adding hot air. He don’t have a clue or care about global heating and what need to be do and at what urgence.
He also thinks Canada is becoming an energy power house. He falls to see that it represents the global desparation of the peaking of oil and gas. Will be all out soon!
PMSH is not a critical thinker or long term planer for the good of all Canadians.

The secretive SPP dealings is bad for the people but good for his backers in control of the corporations, that want to maximize short term profit and screw the future for everyone else.

Look at the kind of people PMSH is trying to emulate.
http://pics.obra.se/oil.jpg

#128 Greg W., Oakville on 10.13.07 at 11:45 pm

Mr Garth TurnerMP,

New microwind generator.
http://pics.obra.se/oil.jpg

#129 Geoffrey L. on 10.14.07 at 12:09 am

Enough of your jew-baiting tactics. Is this how the Special Advisor to the Leader of the Liberal Party occupies his time??

I thought your major task was fund-raising, not stirring up racial discord.

Spoken like a true Conservative operative. — Garth

By Harry S on 10.12.07 11:53 pm

What an endearing way to refer to Jewish people: “jew-baiting tactics”

#130 Don A on 10.14.07 at 12:13 am

Earlier this year I posted to this blog that I had received a call from the Conservatives and had told them that I would not vote for the Harper party ( their words). I mentioned that it worried me that I was probably put in a database as an enemy of the government. It would have been nice if this information had come out right then and there as an answer to my post since it was obviously something that was known. I tried searching for the post but can’t seem to get the search function to do anything but return me to the home page.

I see privacy as one of the largest issues our generation faces. Larger maybe than the weather ( a favorite topic in Canada for sure). A party that promised to increase the privacy commision’s strength and increase penalties for breaches of privacy to all organizations including government and police would be very attractive to me. A party that does the opposite… not so much. Maybe the Liberal party should invite the privacy commisioner to review their system too while looking into the Conservatives to see how the whole system can be fixed here and now. With technology what it is today it takes very little to get out of hand and it is a very slippery slope once it has started. Obviously it has started. It should stop now.

#131 Charles Oxley on 10.14.07 at 12:28 am

So much for good PR.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2007/10/13/putin_snubs_us_on_joint_missile_defense/

#132 Emilie on 10.14.07 at 1:11 am

Stephane versus Stephen

http://femmeverte.blogspot.com/2007/10/stphane-vs-stephen.html

#133 Andrew McDonnell on 10.14.07 at 1:18 am

By Canuck on 10.13.07 3:15 pm and By Leasa on 10.13.07 7:51 pm

Thanks for helping out last Thursday. You both bring up some excellent points amongst all the shouting that seems to be going on around us.

Canuck, I did read a report about Ontario high schools staging mock elections. The candidates are given an opportunity to visit the schools and present their platform to the students. I would assume that they could also answer questions should they choose to.

It may also be noted that the Greens have wiped the floor with the opposition in the aforementioned mock elections so they should start thinking about more viable and realistic policy that can win seats.

#134 Austin So on 10.14.07 at 1:48 am

[i]Just imagine how some governments could misuse such a database.

Sure now it is for sending Holiday cards. Who says it can’t be used later for say a CRA audit ?????

By DJ on 10.13.07 9:48 pm[/i]

Yes. And that is the real point. Not only can this be used to identify CPC supporters, but also to identify CPC detractors, given the information provided in this particular post (thank you Garth).

Funny you should mention the CRA audit…I had to submit some additional documentation for my 2006 filing.

And who thought that the Orwellian nightmare was just that?

Welcome to Stalinism, folks, under the guise of “democracy” (that is as long as you are “with us” ;)…

Anyone else?

But it does make me wonder the recent inquiry by Day on the ability to obtain name/address information from ISP hosts is related…are they trying to establish the legitimacy of CIMS or are they trying to expand it, and are they combining ti with other governmental databases…

Austin

P.S. Maintaining this minority may indeed be a good idea…make the Harper puppet dance to the Liberal tune…while revealing more and more about the true nature and the functioning of the CPC.

#135 Canuck on 10.14.07 at 2:49 am

Change of topic to Afghanistan:

There is general recognition that the Nato alliance and the Taliban, who are increasingly relying on amateurish suicide bombings, have fought each other to a standstill. Nato partners such as Germany, the Netherlands and France are tiring of a war that British commanders admit may take ’30 years to win’. British ministers have suggested talking to the Taliban–something President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan has offered to do. Earlier this month he made a personal plea to Mullah Omar to negotiate and stop ‘the destruction of [his] country’.

But the confederation of warlords, Pakistan Taliban, Deobandi religious networks, businessmen and smugglers, the veterans such as Haqqani and the newcomers who have seized power in villages like Mir Ali will not give way easily.

‘The loose, chaotic quasi-state which we are seeing emerging has been in the process of being built since the early days of the war against the Soviets 30 years ago,’ said one western diplomat in Pakistan. ‘It is going to take that long, if not longer, to dismantle.’

Rise of the radicals

Taliban literally means ‘students’. Originally mainly ethnic Pashtuns, many footsoldiers came from radical seminaries in Pakistan, where two million Afghans sought refuge from two decades of war.

Soviet troops left Afghanistan in 1989. The pro-Soviet government fell in 1992; rebel factions took power but then began infighting. Thousands died in a vicious civil war. The Taliban emerged as a real force in 1994. In 1996 they captured Kabul. They were forced out in 2001 by a US-led invasion, but staged a comeback last year.

The Taliban believe in a strict interpretation of Islamic law and last month produced a constitution. Executions are carried out in public. Women are fully covered and are not permitted education. Men should wear beards, and light entertainment – music, television and film – is deemed to be anti-Islamic.

Poppy production in Afghanistan rose dramatically after the 2001 invasion destabilised a shaky economy, leading more and more farmers to turn to opium production to survive. The country provides 86 per cent of the world’s supply of the drug.

Observer, Guardian

#136 Canuck on 10.14.07 at 5:31 am

What strategy will Dion adopt for something that should be in the Throne speech not being there? The missing component is of course, the lack of parliament debate about the Afghanistan mission that Harper avoided by appointing a panel of lackey’s to report at a later date?

Has there ever been a time in Canadian history when a sitting government’s Throne speech has been voted against by the opposition because of something a government deliberately excluded?

If not, might it be time for history to be made?

#137 Catherine on 10.14.07 at 6:21 am

Catherine

You seem to take great delight in diminishing the Canadianship of those who choose to become Canadians? That’s too bad you place so little value in the immigrants that formed Canada. Canada is a young country –we all immigrant from somewhere else. Mine are from England, where are yours from? Canadians are hybrids of other nationalities.

The enemy of Canada is the citizens that don’t accept immigrants into this country because our birth rate is declining and it will be immigrants that stabalize our population, lend us growth and give us hope that we’ll exist as a nation.

By Canuck on 10.13.07 6:20 pm

Canuck – you have it wrong, again. I am very pro immigration. However, I don’t like new Canadians coming to Canada (for what ever reason) and spewing their divisive crap. Bill M is one of those people. Canada has always been pro-American (except maybe under Trudeau and Chretien). John Manley is Canadian. Stephen Harper is Canadian.

What Bill M. is an intolerant individual, who believes that he and his ideology is only thing that best for Canada and its citizens. His Canadian life started only a decade or so ago. For whatever reason, he chose to immigrant, I do not know. But, it could not have been George W Bush, as he came here during the Clinton days.

BTW: my parents were immigrants and they taught us to love and respect Canada. They taught us that Canadians have many different beliefs and ideologies BUT their core beliefs and ideologies are common to ALL Canadians. So we should always remember that when discussing politics!

The ex-NDP leader, Ed Broadband said it beautifully before he left Parliament. He stated that 75% of parties’ core values are the same – it’s only 25% that differs and that our parliamentarians should never forget it.

It’s too bad Bill M. can’t be more like Ed Broadband or like my parents! He definately be a better human being.

#138 keith phibbs on 10.14.07 at 7:02 am

John G , you should take some pointers from Hogan and Leasa, they spout the party crap but in a so much nicer way than you.Their posts actually merit responses.Yours should be sent to psychiatrist.

Our role in Afghanistan really about ties with U.S.
Oct 14, 2007 04:30 AM
Thomas Walkom
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/266634
Harper sets his election trap
Showdown: Harper sets his election trap
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/266608
QUEBEC POLITICS

PM ‘lying’ about open federalism, Duceppe says
RHÉAL SÉGUIN

October 12, 2007
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071012.DUCEPPE12/TPStory/

#139 David Bakody on 10.14.07 at 7:30 am

Good Morning:

Nothing Changes, Nothing Changes, this morning headlines in the G&M stating the Leader of the Bloc gets 95% support.

And you will not believe the hate and none intelegent statements from English Canada. It appears supporters of PMSH & Co talk is indeed cheap. Stand up Canada and give Quebec Nationhood for votes, and give them bundles of cash for votes, and seperate bundles of cash for sponsership progames, then when they back an elected leader within thier Nation, bash him to bits in print.

I thought we were better than that, I of course said they were CPC members, but the odds are goood, Reformers (PMSH included) did this before even to extent of marking “X”s through the face of BLOC canidates.

Add to this the fact even though many of their children are putting their lives on the line in Afghanistan as we sit in our homes safe and sound, PMSH did not even invite one member of the Bloc to participate in his Patrayus type mission via John Manley to Afghanistan while most likley is already drafted (GWB)

Give PMSH a majority or even another minority….and this is but the tip of iceburg of what a real “Bully on the Hill” can shove down our throats.

#140 Leasa on 10.14.07 at 8:13 am

By Ike on 10.13.07 11:20 pm

Yes, Ike that was unbelievable! The most damning part from media reports: Chretien said HE had Kyoto on track to meet targets and once Martin took over, Kyoto fell completely off the rails! Paul Martin made DION Min. of Environment! Wow! Talk about drowning your fishing buddy! Bet Martin’s lawyer is reading this book as we speak word for word. Stay tuned!

Really, all this stuff coming out of the Liberal Party gives even me the heebie-jeebies! L

#141 Herb on 10.14.07 at 8:24 am

Randall Denley has a look at political practice in Ontario and recommends some changes at

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/columnists/story.html?id=f1a663e0-4311-48aa-b928-aa53a9d9f969

Federal parties please copy.

#142 Herb on 10.14.07 at 8:33 am

“Our role in Afghanistan is really about ties with US” – Keith Phibbs at 7:02

And what has taken Walkom and a lot of other people this long to figure out? Was it fear of the knee-jerk accusation of “knee-jerk anti-Americanism” that was the immediate reaction in press and public to doubt or criticism of what the USA were doing?

#143 Geminesse on 10.14.07 at 9:06 am

By Leasa on 10.13.07 7:51 pm
We definitely need more taught in our schools. Not just in highschool, but it should start very young with what we used to call ‘current events’. When I was in grade school current events was taught every day, where we would examine newspapers and discuss the stories. Each child had a turn bringing in the story in that day’s paper that interested him/her the most and discussion would follow.

Most sensible posting in a long time. How can we get our schools to return to involving children and their families.

#144 keith phibbs on 10.14.07 at 9:28 am

Really, all this stuff coming out of the Liberal Party gives even me the heebie-jeebies! L

By Leasa on 10.14.07 8:13 am
EVEN ME
Very revealing statement about how you think of yourself and your tactics.

#145 C. B. Innes on 10.14.07 at 10:15 am

Catherine (10.14.07 6:21 am),

You need to take a history course. The Liberal Party was the pro-American Party from Confederation until the Trudeau era. Conservative leaders tied themselves to Britain and the Empire/Commonwealth in an attempt to mitigate the influence of the United States over Canadian sovereignty. Even Mulroney initially took a stance that was less pro-American initially by rejecting a trade deal with the U.S.

The question is whether pro-Americanism is anti-Canadian. That is precisely the way Stephen Harper defined the issue in 2000 when he wrote:

“Alberta and much of the rest of Canada have embarked on divergent and potentially hostile paths to defining their country.

Alberta has opted for the best of Canada’s heritage — a combination of American enterprise and individualism with the British traditions of order and co-operation.

Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its economy and social services to mask its second-rate status, led by a second-world strongman appropriately suited for the task.”

In my opinion, this is a statement of anti-Canadianism. He rejects Canada has become and advocates a more American version with stricter legal and social controls.

#146 dj on 10.14.07 at 10:16 am

Harper to use database for ethnic/religous cleansing?

Hmmm, just how far can such a database be used to round up dissidents perhaps?

[i]Just imagine how some governments could misuse such a database.

Sure now it is for sending Holiday cards. Who says it can’t be used later for say a CRA audit ?????

By DJ on 10.13.07 9:48 pm[/i]

Yes. And that is the real point. Not only can this be used to identify CPC supporters, but also to identify CPC detractors, given the information provided in this particular post (thank you Garth).

Funny you should mention the CRA audit…I had to submit some additional documentation for my 2006 filing.

And who thought that the Orwellian nightmare was just that?

Welcome to Stalinism, folks, under the guise of “democracy” (that is as long as you are “with us” ;)…

Anyone else?

But it does make me wonder the recent inquiry by Day on the ability to obtain name/address information from ISP hosts is related…are they trying to establish the legitimacy of CIMS or are they trying to expand it, and are they combining ti with other governmental databases…

Austin

P.S. Maintaining this minority may indeed be a good idea…make the Harper puppet dance to the Liberal tune…while revealing more and more about the true nature and the functioning of the CPC.

By Austin So on 10.14.07 1:48 am

#147 Leasa on 10.14.07 at 11:30 am

Very revealing statement about how you think of yourself and your tactics.

By keith phibbs on 10.14.07 9:28 am

Gosh! Why do some of you, Keith, have to ‘read things into things’ that are not there? I said what I said. The ‘even me’ means, simply I have read a lot of shit in my time and not too much throws me. That’s all. Just as written, by me. Now I do understand better after reading poli-blogs how stupid ‘conspiracy theories and propaganda’ is born.

I’m saying, relax. I write what I mean, and mean what I write.

Catch ya on the rebound. L

#148 C. B. Innes on 10.14.07 at 11:51 am

The creation of huge politically motivated databases today is a potential means of social and political control.

All parties compile lists of supporters and potential supporters for the purpose of getting the vote out. In general, until the digital age these lists were on paper and generally stored by party riding executives or campaign managers until the next election. They were not in the possession of elected members and their staff and they were not used for other purposes.

As far as I know political parties are exempt from all the laws governing privacy. There are no rules regulating the collection of information, who has access to it, what might be contained in that information, and how it might be used by political parties.

The use of these lists by governments is a new issue. The implications of these large, centralized databases in the hands of both political operatives and partisan controllers of government is terrifying. It is “big brother” government and politics.

The fact that politicians have used these systems without question underlines how partisanship can undermine judgement and commitment to democratic principles.

#149 Bill-Muskoka on 10.14.07 at 1:19 pm

For whatever reason, he chose to immigrant, I do not know.

It’s too bad Bill M. can’t be more like Ed Broadband or like my parents! He definately be a better human being.

By Catherine on 10.14.07 6:21 am

No, Chatty Cathy, you could not even begin to grasp the reasons. Decades of watching America be taken down a road that leads, historically, to its own demise.

Unlike Nebuchadrezzar_II, I could read the writing on the wall, as have over 500,000 other former Americans who have immigrated to Canada.

We had watched the Home of the ‘Brave and the Land of the Free’, a land my ancestors helped to build for over 400 years, being destroyed, and the people to weak, collectively, to care about anything but more materialism. They lost their humanity, and substituted Imperialism and War to mediate their FUD.

I do not wish, desire, or have any intention of seeing that happen to my Canada as far as I am able to prevent it. You know nothing of what it is truly like to be an American. NOLA was a mere brief glimpse of what America is truly like, has been for a long time, and no real progress is made because of corruption and criminals posing as politicians. They know not even their own Constitution, Bill of Rights, or history. They are never incarcerated for their treasonous crimes, crimes against humanity, or anything. They are above the very laws they write that all others must abide by. They are like rude farts in an elevator. Everyone is affected, with no where to go.

I will never condone the ‘Americanizing of Canada!’ We are a civilized nation built by the same people who built the United States, but we retained what they willingly gave up. Many of us returned to our truest Roots, well grounded in ethics, and a sense of history stemming from Europe and Britain. A place where all the people of the world can live in peace and harmony without being assimilated like some Borg Drone.

Oh, and would you please direct all of us to a law, or other statute that states clearly how long a person must be a Canadian before they can excercise their freedom of speech, opinion, and show true concern for the direction their country is headed? I would venture to say that the immigrants have to know more about Canada’s important history than most Canadians know. We are tested on that knowledge and must PASS the test. We also chose to be here, paid the fees, went through a lengthy process, background checks, and years of waiting. The day I received my Citizenship I felt more part of the real world than ever before. I stood, and took an oath, along with 73 other people from 32 countries, to uphold Canada, the Queen, and what we truly stand for.

We had to know and sing ‘O’Canada’ and did so with overwhelming joy in our hearts, and tears in our eyes. We believe in Canada unlike some Canadians who were merely lucky enough to be born here without any effort whatsoever required of them for citizenship.

The America you think you know is no longer, and has not been for several decades. As to being more ‘polite’ you may ask that of me when you have been a first hand witness to the tyranny America has burdened its own citizens with. It is as subtle as a virus, maybe you will be really seriously, fatal;y affected, or just feel like crap. Your idealistic view is not based on reality.

Some of us know better than you what America is really about…MONEY, not people. I AM Canadian.

#150 Bob R on 10.14.07 at 2:02 pm

Bashing Dion by a few appears not to be too smart. Who amongst you has spent 10 years in the Liberal cabinet and then spent 8 months contemplating his goal to become the Leader of the Liberal Party ? Right, none of you. Give the man credit. He is not the Leader of the Liberal Party as a result of a flighty impulse.

I see some posters here and there having doubts about John Manley. I believe his lyalties to the Liberal Party are firmly in place. He said in the interview that he now does not do politics.

But don’t compare his loyalties to those of Wajid Khan. That is a serious insult to Manley.

#151 Greg W., Oakville on 10.14.07 at 2:57 pm

Mr Garth TurnerMP,

Correction to link for
New MicroWind Generator.
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1052/

#152 C. B. Innes on 10.14.07 at 6:33 pm

There is only one reason that Harper would appoint this committee. He already knows that these people support his position and at the same time he wants to try to deflect responsibility from himself to the committee.

Anyone who would agree to serve in on such a committee have bigger egos than commonsense. They are allowing themselves to be used.

#153 Bill-Muskoka on 10.14.07 at 8:16 pm

By C. B. Innes on 10.14.07 6:33 pm

And their favourite song is ‘I’m a Puppet!’

#154 Paully on 10.14.07 at 8:34 pm

To those of you that are whining about proteciton of your privacy: just what are you hiding?

Garth, if you or your party want to send me a greeting card for any holiday, even left handed black lesbian corporation president’s day, go right ahead!

#155 C. B. Innes on 10.14.07 at 9:28 pm

Paully,

When political parties use information on how they think I voted to determine how I am treated by government democracy dies. We have already had a clear case of this kind of information being used by a Liberal MP to deny a constituent his services.

How can an individual prevent incorrect information that might be damaging from getting into these records?

I am sure you trust your political masters totally but most Canadians do not because they see too often incompetence, dishonesty, and sheer vindictiveness within the political sphere.

#156 HT on 10.14.07 at 10:52 pm

Mr Turner, very good analogy and well done Sir. Keep up working for Canadians, or should I say, Canadians who believe in Canada and do not want to be part of the U.S.A.

#157 Canuck on 10.15.07 at 1:22 am

Herb, Randall Denley’s article:

Why not choose candidates two years before the election, and expect them to play the same community role as an opposition MPP? It doesn’t have to be a full-time job.

I disagree, that the job of an MPP can be done as a part-time job. Legislation and needs are more complicated now than it was years ago. It takes time to research and wade through the mountain of data, opinions and legalese. This person seems to think the job of being a politician is easy. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are lazy politicians that attempt to do their jobs from the convenience of an armchair, secluded in an office. But what’s needed is for politicians to get in touch with voters. The only method is to reach out and be conversant with what the voters concerns are. That can’t be done in seclusion. MPP’s need to get out of their office and attend meetings. Town hall meetings are an excellent way to get to know what issue voters need implemented into legislation.

—–

Could we have much less of clubbing each other the head and more discussion about ‘issues’ rather than addressing individual personalities that post on these boards? I do address some of my posts to individuals on this board, but that’s in reference to links or topics they put up for analysis. The rhetoric shouldn’t deterioriate into pissing contests with individuals.

#158 Catherine on 10.15.07 at 6:38 am

Some of us know better than you what America is really about…MONEY, not people. I AM Canadian.

By Bill-Muskoka on 10.14.07 1:19 pm

Well, I don’t know what happened to you, Bill, in your home country, the USA; but, I know a lot of Americans (born and raised and also the immigrated ones; some white, some black, some asian), and I can tell you sir, they are proud of their country. They may have disagreements with their governments (democrats or republicans), just like we may have disagreements with our Canadian governments. But, to suggest that what you are suggestion, is just over the top.

Of course, as I am a born and raised Canadian, I have witnessed increase of anti-Americanism (very fashionable in some circles) for decades now. Many Canadians define themselves by being against “american-style” policies, programs, or ideologies. So then the counter would be “USSR-style or China-style or Iranian-style or Chavez-style”. See how silly the “american-style” arguments are?

We keep hearing radical right winged crape to describe Stephen Harper – can we then say that Stephane Dion is left winged Chavez type – where Dion wants to take away our parental responsibilities to raise/indoctranate our children.

BTW Bill M., by calling me “Chatty Cathy” you are showing how you are a nice and cordial Canadian. sheesh.

#159 Bill-Muskoka on 10.15.07 at 8:58 am

By Catherine on 10.15.07 6:38 am

Like I said Chatty Cathy, you cannot understand. BTW, has it ever crossed your mind that we former Americans are trying to warn Canada that Canadians need to take off the Rose Coloured glasses and see the real America? Americans feel the same way.

Now as to anti-American, no Cathy it is anti-hypocrisy that is the goal.

America lost its way decades ago, and yet the masses are distracted by the MSM over and over again. I remember a U.S. that had real compassion based on understanding, not profits. An America that always strove for doing it better, never sitting down, and getting the job done.

That America no longer exists, except in a few pockets. I remember Martin Luther King saying ‘I have a dream!’, and we all knew that dream is, in reality a Human Right! Still, the morons are without a clue, and they will remain so far as long as possible. I will not live that long.

If you like being treated as a mushroom, then join right in.

BTW, down in the States many redneck’s refer to Canadians as ‘Pinko Commies!’ So, how does that feel…Real ‘PC’ I bet. LOL

#160 Sean P. Hogan on 10.15.07 at 3:46 pm

John G , you should take some pointers from Hogan and Leasa, they spout the party crap but in a so much nicer way than you.Their posts actually merit responses.Yours should be sent to psychiatrist.

Our role in Afghanistan really about ties with U.S.
Oct 14, 2007 04:30 AM
Thomas Walkom
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/266634
Harper sets his election trap
Showdown: Harper sets his election trap
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/266608
QUEBEC POLITICS

PM ‘lying’ about open federalism, Duceppe says
RHÉAL SÉGUIN

October 12, 2007
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071012.DUCEPPE12/TPStory/

By keith phibbs on 10.14.07 7:02 am

I take offense to your posting about me. I don’t spout any party crap, I’m not a CPCer. I am a conservative, but not a Conservative.

#161 Sean P. Hogan on 10.15.07 at 3:46 pm

Oh and one more thing Keith, please address me as “His Highness” when speaking of me in the 3rd person.

#162 Marc on 10.15.07 at 5:59 pm

“Canadians need to take off the Rose Coloured glasses”
By Bill-Muskoka on 10.15.07 8:58 am

And this whole time I thought I was wearing beer goggles.

#163 Bill-Muskoka on 10.16.07 at 11:21 am

And this whole time I thought I was wearing beer goggles.

By Marc on 10.15.07 5:59 pm

So, you are the ‘eyes’ behind those in the MADD ad, eh? LMAO!

#164 CMIS wants you at Bene Diction Blogs On on 10.20.07 at 8:07 pm

[…] MP Garth Turner’s post on the federal Conservative data base called CMIS got attention from media and privacy experts this […]

#165 GGF on 10.22.07 at 1:42 am

No data has been mined from the almost 70,000 comments submitted to this blog. –Garth

Except by Google.

How so? — Garth