Taliban? Really?
Remember when the Tories were in opposition? Imagine the Conservative outrage had a Liberal MP refered to same-sex marriage opponents as the Taliban.
They would have been up on their hind legs and frothing at the mouth.
Government, it seems, has changed the Tories.
That little comment on my recent words came from a blog called (I love it), “Cowboys for Social Responsibility.†Of course, visitors here will also have noticed that a number of folks leaving comments have been outraged with me, in various degrees, for using the term “Taliban†when I recently blogged about my close encounters with a right-wing Christian group led by one Charles McVety.
The group actually issued a press release last week calling on Stephen Harper to chew me out (like, that will be a first) for having dissed them, and using the T-word. “He (Turner) is targeting people of faith on his blog, especially those who support the traditional definition of marriage, calling them ‘taliban’ and accusing them of an ‘agenda of hate’,†the release pontificated.
“Grossly ignorant and bigoted comments such as these are unacceptable in any civilized society, especially a multicultural one like Canada, and Turner should be held accountable for them.â€
So, did I actually call the Christians (by the way, I am one), “Taliban� Will this inevitably lead me into the same boiling cauldron that Saskatchewan MP Maurice Vellacott made auto-soup in for his ill-chosen words about the Supremes? Should we expect some thundering righteousness in QP, as all eyes drift over to my wretched form, slumped in the chair in the corner?
Well, anything is possible in this twisted place, but getting angry at me would a waste of perfectly good prime ministerial spleen that could be used better elsewhere. Like against Charles McVety, who wants to knock off some Tory MPs he thinks will vote the wrong way on the coming same-sex marriage bill. His group has made it public that gangs of supporters may show up at Conservative nomination meetings and bring enough votes to replace a sitting and morally deficient Tory MP with a more pious candidate.
And this, of course, is where I part company with these religious vigilantes.
No, I did not call the fundamentalism Christians Taliban. No, I did not throw the T-word at people who would ban gay marriage (which now, ironically, include George Bush).
What I did say was this, exactly: “Faith-based politics is fine. It has a long tradition. It can accomplish a lot of good. But when one religious or cultural group engineers a coup, overwhelming existing political party members and workers, and replacing a politician elected by a plurality of people with a single-issue monochromatic militant, well, kiss democracy goodbye. “
That’s what I wrote, and I’m sticking by it. I’ll go down fighting to stop any faith-based group, Christian, Islamic or whatever, from using our precious political system to impose their value system and religious beliefs on the rest of us. There’s a reason wise people decided the state and the church should be separate, and Canada – proudly multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-faith and multi-hued – is no damn place to start gluing them back together.
That does not mean we can’t be ethical, moral, responsible, principled and virtuous. In fact, our government should be an example of humanity gone nuts with goodness.
But a faith-based government? Forget it. Our brave troops in Afghanistan spend every day tracking down and squishing the freaks who tried that one.
22 comments ↓
NO MATTER WHAT THE COST, NO MATTER WHAT THE DESTRUCTION YOU ARE CLINGING TO POWER BUT CANNOT GET ANYTHING DONE
AT SOME POINT YOU WILL BE HELD RESPONSIBLE
Well said, Garth.
Bruce, ease up on the caffeine, eh?
This one should be entitled the Fundie IQ test. I wonder how many will rise to the bait.
Hmmm….sounds like Bruce has an anger managment problem
Meanwhile the real enemy is not being talked about> I will give you a hint. 17 people arrested in Toronto ready to blow up who knows what?!
Dear Garth … so very glad to see our PM stand up in the Commons to salute the wonderful job done by all aspects of law enforcement on this situation of terrorism which is unfolding …… these good people NEED to know from on HIGH that we ordinary fish who try to swim in the right direction everyday are behind them 100% and really appreciate the man-hours put into these things for our safety…… now let’s hope the laws and judges do their job .
Thanks for the opportunity,
Catherine Madden
Hi, Garth. I couldn’t agree with you more on this issue. The last marrage of church and state, as some will recall, ended up in humanity being thrown into the dark ages for a millenium plus. Governments need to protect and instill human rights, not play out some neo-puritan version of what they think is Gods will “cause our doctrine is holy and perfect along with our interpetation giving us the right to rule… or else.” Keep up the good work.
Just some feedback on your proposed flat tax system of taxation… I like it! Exemptions for singles beginning at 20 grand, couples at 25, and a flat tax from there at 19 to 21% couldn’t be more simplified and fair overall.
The risk, of course, and it has been aptly pointed out, is that going to this kind of system is that we begin here and end up with a flat taxation from zero for singles and couples with a potentially higher flat tax percentage than the one suggested, leaving the poor and middle income earners much more taxed than they are now. I haven’t yet crunched the numbers on how doable the starting point is, but I like its theory.
I’m also glad to see that you’ve dropped the “middle income families first” slogan. It just didn’t suit you, Garth. America first, whites first, Christianity first, this class first, that group first… you being a christian and all should know what JC had to say about the first and last.
And I just want to say that there is a big difference between Conservatives and Reformers. Conservatives know the difference between themselves and western separatist U.S. corporate bought puppet plant sell outs like what we’ve got with former NCC prez Harper for now. The worm will turn, Garth. The worm will turn. Until then, keep up the good work!
Good post Garth, I’m glad we have you in the Conservative ranks.
Mr.Turner, without a doubt you are the most impressive MP in the conservative party. I say this not just because of the SSM issue, and your stance on it, but because of your willingness to speak freely openly and sometimes opposed to the party line when you think it’s appropriate. It may not win you many accolades within the party ranks, but there are a whole host of Canadians who have watched your performance and I think you have earned their trust by your willingness to truly speak and vote your own mind. Would that there were more politicians like you in the country in ALL the political parties.
The buzz word for the new millennium seems to be “valuesâ€. Paul Martin spouted it repeatedly throughout his 2 campaigns. “Canadian values.†What are “Canadian values?†I know this, many of the SCOC decisions and much of the government legislation does not reflect everyones values. And because some do not agree with those decisions ones like Garth Turner and his ilk label them as a fanatic, fundamentalist, radical, religious zealots. These are the same terms used to describe the Taliban, al-Qaeda, and other terrorist networks. Mr. Turner, when you or your followers use this type of rhetoric to show your displeasure with the Charles McVetys you in fact are labelling him and his group as being the same as the terrorists. And it is all because he has a different set of values than you and he wishes to use his constitutional right to work to elect MPs that feel the same as he does. It certainly isn’t because he has killed innocent people.
Some vote because they want lower taxes, some because they want more government, some because they want different moral laws. Each one has a right to vote accordingly. Each one has a right to mobilize like minded Canadians to see their desires come to fruition. Mr. Turner, you seem to think that is where we “kiss democracy goodbye.†I want to tell you Mr. Turner, that is where democracy flourishes. If you can’t convince enough of your constituents to support your values and vision, well, then you lose. By your blog you seem to want some citizens constitutional right to vote taken from them. Can you see the irony here? You are fighting for the “rights†of those who want same sex marriage but want to deny the rights of Canadians to vote as they wish simply because they don’t agree with you. You’ll “go down fighting to stop†them (your words).
Because one is a christian and wishes their moral values to be a part of law of the land does not mean that we are linking church and state. That’s another irony. We have to separate church and state because of christian values all the while embracing agnostic or atheist values.
Anyway sir, I felt compelled to speak on your web blog after all you are representing the common folk are you not? Well that’s what I am. Regards, Jim.
Jim:
I have no time or patience for organized religion of any flavour but I certainly can’t argue with the points you have made regarding values or the democratic process.
You are perfectly correct that Christians have every right to avail themselves of the same opportunities as anyone else regarding voting or the nomination process. That’s not what we are upset about. It’s the sneaky tactics that lit my fuse.
If a Christian wants to promote his religious values by running for the nomination of a party he should announce well in advance and play the game like everybody else. He should not bring instant party members in by the busload on nomination night and hijack the riding. That may be perfectly legal but it is morally reprehensible and seems to contradict the values you hold so dearly.
These are the tactics McVety has threatened to use. His methods are subversive and dishonest and when he publicly “threatens†to use them that is terrorism…….small “t†terrorism to be sure but his intent is to disturb and frighten. That’s what terrorists do.
Here we go again. You are comparing a Christian religious group to the Taliban. Unbelievable. Take a look at the Vatican and that should relieve all your worries. If McVety brings his own supporters to the nomination vote, he has that right. If you choose to remove it, give it a try, you won’t get far. If people think that Garth doesn’t bring his own supporters, think again.
To Jim who wrote earlier, you are bang on here. You can tell that there is no reasoning that can refute democracy here so they turn to the emotional argument, using Taliban and terrorist(ism) to describe the Christians who are organizing. Pretty sad. I know that a conservative uses reason for his arguments and its getting more obvious that Garth is no conservative.
Sean:
I’m not sure if the first paragraph of your post is in reference to my preceding post or to Garth’s initial blog entry. Please clarify. If you’re talking to me I will be pleased to respond.
“Faith-based political regimes don’t work any more. Just ask the Taliban. Whoops…”
“So, did I actually call the Christians (by the way, I am one), “Talibanâ€?”
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck… Garth, I’m disappointed in you. I had come to your defence on my blog before, and now I am having second thoughts.
Look, this type of thing has happened in spades before, in all kinds of situations. That of the late Chuck Cadman comes to mind for one.
And it wasn’t Christians that took over his riding nomination.
But Taliban? This is extreme fear-mongering.
Any faith-based organization that attempts to impose its will upon the majority of citizens by deliberately swamping the nomination process to elect faith-based candidates is playing with democratic fire. The McVetys of this world may not like my opposing such tactics, but I will continue. It is simply wrong. — Garth
There are other faith-based organizations that have done this over the years too, Garth. I can think of one in Kitchener Centre a few years ago. Why weren’t you so vocal then? If there is a problem with the process, let’s address it for everyone, not just those whom you chose to target.
Information on this occurrence, please. — Garth
I would sure like to know where in our Constitution it says that the state and church are separated as so many people including Garth are pushing on here. Let’s see the proof. Just don’t forget that God is mentioned in our Constitution.
Garth said, “Any faith-based organization that attempts to impose its will upon the majority of citizens by deliberately swamping the nomination process to elect faith-based candidates is playing with democratic fire. The McVetys of this world may not like my opposing such tactics, but I will continue. It is simply wrong. — Garth “,/i>
Any non-faith based organization that attempts to impose its will upon the majority of citizens by deliberately swamping the nomination process to elect non-faith based candidates is playing with democratic fire. The McVetys of this world may not like my opposing such tactics, but I will continue. It is simply wrong.
This has happened many times in politics, look at the homosexual lobbyists and activists and yet I do not see or hear of any cry from Garth. Its just another example of his anti-religious bigotry.
Give ma an example of organized “homosexual lobbysits and activists” successfully taking over a major party nomination. I would like to have that information, please. — Garth
I sent you an email of the background, Garth.
I’m just trying to get this straight. You’re saying that what MCVety is doing is undemocratic? If you truly feel that way, why don’t we scrutinize all party members and make sure that they don’t belong to any third-party interest groups?
I didn’t know that successful takeover (your word) needs to be a requirement for my point, as you haven’t been removed. Just look at any homosexual in Parliament, are you telling me that EGALE doesn’t get involved? Please don’t be that naive.
I see that no one has come to argue that there is a separation of church and state in our constitution.
Excellent point about Egale, Sean!
Thank you Joanne, God Bless you.