So, the crusade continues. The Christian fundamentalists today circulated an anti-Garth column to every Conservative MP’s office, just a few days after urging the prime minister to publicly punish me. Today’s column, by Joseph Ben-Ami, a buddy of Charles McVety, ends with a reference to Nazis, then weaves me nicely into it.
Very principled stuff. And the article below was published hours ago on a Canada-US Christian web site called LifeSite News. I hope all you kiddies out there wanting to become objective journalists do not read it. Unless, of course, you want to end up being a faith-based reporter.
I publish the following so that all Canadians – not just the ones who cruise faithy web sites – may see what some of the consequences are for defending tolerance against guys like McVety. Now I am an “anti-marriage, anti-life, anti-Christian Conservative MP”, I guess. And I have no doubt countless of the faithful will take up the call at the end of this “article” to tell Stephen Harper I should be Tory toast.
Every voter should be aware that organized groups, like the one run by McVety, feel 100% justified in snatching political nominations (not hard to do in our system) and then trotting their guys out as mainstream candidates with mainstream parties, when in fact they are single-issue, faith-based mouthpieces.
I have no doubt the Conservative Party, of which I am a proud member, will chose tolerance over the kind of narrowness and exclusion that the charming, media-savvy Charles McVety personifies. When campaigning, and knocking on all those 25,000 doors, I told people I was representing a mainstream, credible, modern, inclusive and caring party. And I am.
By the way, the LifeSite News service says its purpose is to “provide balance and more accurate coverage on culture, life and family matters than is usually given by other media.” May God help them.
Canadian Conservative MP Calls Christian Political Activists “Taliban†and “Flowers of Evilâ€
By John Jalsevac
HALTON, ON, June 9, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) – The verbal sparring match began on May 28, when Conservative MP Garth Turner appeared in a television interview, alongside pro-marriage/Christian political activist Charles McVety.
The issue at hand was homosexual “marriage†in the RCMP.
During what McVety—who is involved in or represents the views of groups including Defend Marriage Canada, the Canada Christian College, and the Canada Family Action Coalition—calls a “spirited†debate, it came to the fore that one of the goals of Christian political activists is to work to ensure that anti-marriage, anti-life, anti-Christian Conservative MPs are defeated and replaced with more family-friendly and Christian candidates during the nomination meetings that will occur before the next election.
Turner responded, accusing McVety and those who share his beliefs of employing anti-democratic tactics. On his blog that same night Turner responded to McVety’s arguments, saying “I have no time for groups in our society who try to force their morals, or their culture, on the rest of us.â€
He concluded his remarks saying, “Call it Defend Marriage Canada. Call it the Taliban. Fleurs de mal [Flowers of evil]†.
In a later blog entry Turner labeled those who share McVety’s political and religious views as “people who share his divine Kool-Aid,†an apparent reference to the infamous Jonestown Massacre of 1978, during which 913 members of the Peoples Temple cult committed mass suicide by drinking grape-flavoured Kool-Aid laced with potassium cyanide. And in another post he called those who would attempt to nominate politicians whose politics is informed by their faith as “religious vigilantes,†and elsewhere, “single-issue monochromatic militants†. And elsewhere, mere paragraphs after back-pedalling and saying “No, I did not call the fundamentalism Christians Taliban,” he continues and compares the very same Christians to Afghan Militant Muslims, although avoiding the explicit term “Taliban,” saying, “But a faith-based government? Forget it. Our brave troops in Afghanistan spend every day tracking down and squishing the freaks who tried that one” .
Joseph Ben-Ami, Executive Director of the Institute for Canadian Values, expressed his confusion at Turner’s accusations that recruiting supporters to attend nomination meetings is anti-democratic.
“When Garth Turner arranges to bring his family and friends to a nomination meeting on a bus he calls it democracy, but when a challenger who happens to be brown-skinned, or perhaps a member of the local church or synagogue, does the same thing for their family and friends, he calls them Taliban and accuses them of ‘taking over’,†observed Ben-Ami.
“Garth Turner’s behaviour is a sharp illustration of the vicious and deep-rooted bigotry lurking just below the surface of the secular-left in our society,†continued Ben-Ami. “People like him claim to be champions of tolerance, but when their own ideas and positions are challenged, they resort to name-calling and fear mongering, laughably invoking the principle of tolerance to justify their bigotry.â€
Jim Hughes, president of Campaign Life Coalition, a group that works to help elect pro-life candidates, said of Turner, “We said right from the beginning that Garth Turner wasn’t somebody that could be supported. A lot of people said we just have to vote Conservative regardless of the candidates. And here we’re paying the price.â€
Hughes continued, saying “The Prime Minister has had this man in already and told him to clam up. Now the only thing is for his expulsion from Cabinet. That would satisfy the bulk of people who supported Mr. Harper from the life and family movement.â€
LifeSiteNews.com tried to contact party leader Stephen Harper’s office to find out if an apology for Turner’s remarks was forthcoming, but was unable to speak to anyone with information on the matter prior to publishing time.
Throughout the debate Turner has also—despite his often expressed approval of a majority-based democracy—repeatedly called into question the need for a free vote on the same-sex “marriage†issue in parliament.
In one post Turner admits that traditional-marriage supporters represent a large portion of the Canadian population: “In a moral sense,†he says, “they have a huge current behind them since most churches are solidly behind traditional marriage. In a cultural sense, many ethnic communities represented in Halton [Turner’s riding] are massively against same-sex marriage. In a political sense, these highly-motivated voters are not going to let their views be ignored.†Turner continues, admitting that he has also had strong reservations, “about the wisdom of the Liberal move to change the definition of marriage, especially without a whole lot more public input and debate.â€
The Halton MP, however, dismisses the concern that the Liberal government side-stepped proper democratic processes in pushing through the same-sex “marriage†legislation, and failed to properly take into account public opinion on the redefinition of marriage.
“It is behind us,†says Turner about the passage of the legislation, “the Right has been extended, and there seems no compelling reason to take it back.†He did not say whether or not the majority of Canadians being opposed to the extension of the “right†would be a sufficient reason. Numerous polls have indicated that the majority of Canadians are indeed opposed to same-sex “marriageâ€. A CBC poll conducted in January of last year indicated 54% of Canadians were opposed to Bill C-38, while a National Post/Global National poll in February of the same year indicated 66% opposition.
“I’ll go down fighting to stop any faith-based group, Christian, Islamic or whatever, from using our precious political system to impose their value system and religious beliefs on the rest of us,†Turner wrote on his blog on June 6. “There’s a reason wise people decided the state and the church should be separate, and Canada – proudly multi-racial, multi-cultural, multi-faith and multi-hued – is no d**n place to start gluing them back together.â€
“That does not mean,†he continues by way of clarification, “we can’t be ethical, moral, responsible, principled and virtuous. In fact, our government should be an example of humanity gone nuts with goodness.â€
Throughout the debate Turner has repeatedly labeled himself as a “Christianâ€, although it is unclear if he draws his beliefs of what is “ethical,†“moral†and “good†from his Christian faith, or from some other unnamed source.
To express your concern contact Stephen Harper at: pm@pm.gc.ca
67 comments ↓
Ooooh. “Unnamed source.” That one sent a shiver up my spine. Are we working up to an accusation of witchcraft here?
Remember, “nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.”
Garth;
Congratulations on your efforts to make government both more open and more
participatory. I enjoy your blog and read it every day. I don’t always agree
with your positions but I like the straightforward way your present them.
You make us think about things that often just slide by us.
In reference to the nomination process, religious and ethnic groups:
I agree with the “Separation of Church and State”, but from the perspective
that people of faith must be protected from the state, not the other way
around. I believe religious and ethnic groups are currently well protected
in Canada. But, when one particular religious (or ethnic) group hijacks a
nomination for religious (or ethnic) purposes, and the nominated candidate
gets elected, a threat is posed to people of other religious (or ethnic)
groups as the successfull group prioritizes its agenda in civil legislation
(which motivated the hijack in the first place). People don’t normally seek
public office to “defend” their faith from civil persecution – that’s not
happening here – but, rather, to go on the offensive and impose their will
on people of their own and other faiths who aren’t being “obedient”.
Obedience to the mores of a particular faith must be motivated by adherence
to the faith, not imposed by civil law.
On the other hand, nothing good is achieved by attacking people for taking
advantage of loopholes in the nomination process. That’s politics! And it
was invented by politicians for their own purposes. Nominations have been
hijacked numerous times by corrupt politicians “renting” voters from brokers
of blocks of voters. The solution is to change the process – not to blame
religious or ethnic groups who legally take advantage of it.
Keep up the good work!
Bob – a voter in Antigonish, Nova Scotia
Dear Mr. Turner,
I wish to congratulate you on your principled stand on a number of issues – floor-crossing Liberal, press restrictions and the military and tax breaks to those who do not need or deserve them – which, as we have all read, have caused you difficulties within the Party. It is refreshing to see an MP reflect the views of his constituents when they have conflicted with Party interests.
I am also writing to express my concerns on the ‘same-sex marriage ‘issue which is quite unnecessarily being dragged back into the political forum. I am not gay but am a fervent believer in non-discrimination and equality of rights for all individuals not just for those deemed acceptable on the basis of personal sexual preference. Since the passing of the previous government’s legislation, with the inclusive use of the word ‘marriage’ for all unions, I have not noticed any seismic shifts in general morality or destruction of the family – nor has the incidence of divorce or spousal abuse among heterosexual unions decreased significantly, surely the more obvious causes of family breakdown. Those who are so concerned about the definition of the word ‘marriage’ could better spend their energies in addressing those issues.
This issue has been debated for almost 3 years with the morally correct legislation being passed. I hope you will support the continuance of this legislation and resist the intense lobbying, particularly from groups south of the border who now apparently fell the need to tell Canadians how and what to think, as well as those from the ‘Reform’ side of the table, that will be evident for the months leading up to the new vote. Surely there are more pressing issues facing the country at this time than trying to again challenge a Charter of Rights (and common decency) matter.
My apologies for being a bit long-winded, but, as you can see, I feel very strongly on equality and human rights issues. Some are not more, or less, equal than others.
Sincerely,
Pamela
Keep standing up to the Nuts.It will get you more votes than you lose.They are just PO’d with you because you have chosen to meet them head on,rather than back off as most elected representitives would have done.
OK. Seriously.
Jalsevac states that, “A CBC poll conducted in January of last year indicated 54% of Canadians were opposed to Bill C-38, while a National Post/Global National poll in February of the same year indicated 66% opposition.”
I believe him. I would have been counted as one who did not support same sex marriage. I still don’t “support” it. Too many of our cultural and historical traditions have been changed in the name of social engineering, vote buying and revisionism. There was simply no pressing need to redefine what is undeniably a cornerstone of traditional Canadian life.
My question is what would the numbers look like if a poll were taken tomorrow asking if people approve of reopening the whole can of worms that is same-sex marriage? I suspect that the numbers would show that the majority of Canadians have no interest in revisiting this train wreck.
If there has been a recent poll I missed it. If there hasn’t been a recent poll maybe there should be. These guys are working with numbers that are a year and a half out of date. If someone has more recent numbers I’d love to see them.
Message to McVety, Jalsevac % Co….. The battle is over. You lost. No you can’t go for best two out of three. Get over yourselves. I’m a little rusty where the beatitudes are concerned. I know the meek inherit the earth. What happens to the sore losers?
Garth, of all the CPC MP’s, why are you always the only one who finds a way into this crap all the time? Always you…..and what has been accomplished?…..you have a bunch of delusional high school/college self proclaimed intellect’s bantering on your blog…….none of which have every voted Conservative in their life trying to suggest that if only the CPC was like the old PC party blah blah..bunch of BS……focus on something that matters to the majority in your riding and you’ll easily win re- election…..enough exploiting controversial and devisive topics already!
Garth;
In America your libertarian views would be most welcome. We could always use more people like you.
That said, I safely presume most Canadians will see through this hyperbole and see a Parliamentarian working hard to be a servant of democracy and do what he said he’d do. I thought Social Conservatives liked that kind of stuff called – oh, I dunno – integrity, honesty and “straight talk”.
Josef in America
ALW, nice posts!
I believe the sore losers get voicemail when they ring at St Peter’s door.
MPTV Episode 2 rocked! I saw a side of Duffy that I hadn’t really noticed before; I’m glad that he mentioned the broken promises of the Libs re: wage controls and fuel taxes. I remember seeing the latter vote on CBC, although at my age I shouldn’t have had a clue what it was all about. He made a very good point about our current government – you get what you see. Which brings me to your current post: We get what we see. Like it or hate it, at least there’s no pussyfooting around.
John G:
Re-elected? This whole thread and a number of the ones that precede it make it abundantly clear that re-election isn’t the issue. How the hell can Garth get re-elected if the nomination is hijacked? It’s kinda tough to get re-elected if you’re not a candidate. Pay attention.
I remain … self proclaimed and delusional but attentive.
ALW
Just a thought… maybe it’s time to take government out of the marriage business; and, focus on other things… like keeping our country safe.
BTW: there are a lot of one-issue politicians. Some of these are only focussed on finances; some are only focussed on agriculture; some are only focussed on official languages; etc. Which one of these should be not considered?
On a related topic, I read an article in Ottawa Citizen (June 9th) edition, which greatly disturbed me. Apparently Carleton University decided to ban Rabbi Bulka from receiving his honorary doctor of laws degree, because his religious views on gay marriage.
I thought that university was about deep thoughts and not though control?
What is next for these universities – banning Catholics, Jews, Muslims whose religious faiths don’t endorse gay marriages?
What are the next incremental steps for these universities? Banning anyone who questions their simple single mindsets?
Good show. Can’t wait for the rebuttle, since I’m not in your riding and would otherwise agree with JOHN G’s post.
Garth, quit wasting your time….I like your blog too much for seomthing like this to cause you more grief with your BUSH-wannabe leader. Extended motorcade….come on????
Bob:
To the best of my understanding the loophole that would make sitting Mps more vulnerable to challenges for the nomination doesn’t exist … yet. The party meets later this month and the nomination rules may be revised to allow it … or demand it for all I know. They’re keeping this one under wraps. Well, at least they’re trying.
That’s what this fracas is all about.
Its funny Garth that you don’t mention that Joseph Ben-Ami worked for your campaign in 93. Hmmm, wonder why???
Joseph Ben-Ami wrote in his column, “In the interest of full disclosure I should also point out that I have been active in Conservative politics for the last 30 years – longer, I suspect, than almost all of those who voted for Mr. Turner in his last nomination meeting. As it happens, I worked on Mr. Turner’s campaign to lead the Tories in 1993. He and his team were thrilled to have the support of what he now calls “insta-Tories” that I and my colleagues signed up at that time on his behalf, just as, I am quite certain, he was thrilled to have their support this time around. Indeed, he no doubt encouraged his friends and supporters to go out and sign up as many “insta-Tories” as possible to “stack” the nomination meeting in his favour. In short, Mr. Turner is being dishonest. His hand-wringing over this issue is entirely contrived. “
Garth has stated, “Today’s column, by Joseph Ben-Ami, a buddy of Charles McVety, ends with a reference to Nazis, then weaves me nicely into it.”
What Joseph actually said since Garth seems to omit it here, “To be sure, Garth Turner and his ready-made audience are not Nazis – not even close. But the ease with which they ridicule their fellow Canadians who happen to be Christian is disquieting to say the least, as is the obvious and perverse pleasure they all seem to derive from the offence they are causing. ”
He didn’t call him a Nazi as Garth is suggesting by his use of the word weaving. He didn’t call him a Taliban as Garth has done either. Who is principled here???
As well, one poster has accused those of us who are Christian never to have voted for the Conservatives. Let me be upfront here, I voted for Gord Brown last time and when I lived in Vanier I voted for the CPC Candidate, Kevin Friday and when I lived in Ottawa-Centre I voted for the Alliance Candidate and before that the Reform Candidate. Sorry to dispell your preconceived notions, but you’re way off base.
First, I have no idea who Joseph Ben-Ami is and, to my knowledge, I have never met him. If he supported some of my past political efforts, it was without my knowing so. Anyone who’s been involved in a leadership campaign understands a national organization can include many people the candidate will never actually meet.
Second, Ben-Ami’s column ends with these paragraphs. Just so everyone understands what he wrote – without cheery-picking words, as you did – here’s the entire context: — Garth
German theologian Martin Niemöller wrote a poem dealing with the incremental
growth of intolerance in pre-war Nazi Germany in which he observed that
“When they came for the Jews I did not speak out for I was not a Jew. When
they came for me, there was no one left to speak out.”
To be sure, Garth Turner and his ready-made audience are not Nazis – not
even close. But the ease with which they ridicule their fellow Canadians who
happen to be Christian is disquieting to say the least, as is the obvious
and perverse pleasure they all seem to derive from the offence they are
causing.
As a Jew, I will not be silent, because if I’m silent when Christians are
the target, who will be there when the focus shifts to me?
Garth Turner??
I have another quote from a poster at freedominion.ca, who said, “Back in 1987/1988, Garth Turner was involved in The Committee to Save the Guelph Line. This was a committee devoted to opposing some planned road widening through the small town of Campbellville, 26 km north of Burlington, and 63 west of Toronto.
During a meeting, Garth and another volunteer had a disagreement. Instead of resolving the disagreement rationally, Garth ended up toe-to-toe with this individual screaming at him from about two inches away. ”
Does this sound like Garth? It sure does as he has done the same with McVety.
Hmmm. First you mention an incident that may have taken place 19 years ago. Second, I have absolutely no recollection of ever screaming at anyone from two inches away. Someone certainly had a vivid imagination, or an agenda. Third, if this were true, and it’s the worst think critics can lay on me, I think I’m doing just fine. — Garth
You see, more and more the truth comes out. You get someone who becomes aggressive when challenged and even arrogant as you can see from his remarks to posters here. It doesn’t take long for me to realize who I would not support if I was in his riding and he was the candidate.
I don’t think that Garth actually invited this McVety creep to bash him. Some people posting seem to think that an MP can control what the issues are. I would say that all along Garth has been focused on middle class issues as they relate to his riding and digital democracy as that relates to how citizens engage politicians. Specific issues are going to come up and MP’s are going to have to engage.
These attacks are standard issue for all extremists. Generally Canadians don’t pay attention to this kind of stuff. Gay marriage needs to be left alone and as it is. If the CPC are doing this to please there so called “base” it is going to backfire!!!
nice to see the nutjobs censored the word “damn”…
Hey Garth! As a regular reader and now-and-then commenter I know exactly what you meant when you mentioned the Taliban.
It is obvious that your detractors think voters are so stupid that they will believe the John Jalsevac “spin” on what you said. Everybody has heard that “absolute power corrupts absolutely”. That is exactly what happens when an absolute powered government, whether it be faith, fascist, or communist based, comes to power.
Having said that, I don’t believe you were predicting what WOULD happen so much as merely pointing out the hypothetical result SHOULD such a thing happen. Subtlety is totally lost on these folks.
Loved the Mike Duffy interview by the way. It’s all good. Rock on.
– Doug
“This whole thread and a number of the ones that precede it make it abundantly clear that re-election isn’t the issue”
ALW…. lol………re-election is the ENTIRE issue and purpose to Garth!
Ah the naivety of youth!
Apparently Carleton University decided to ban Rabbi Bulka from receiving his honorary doctor of laws degree, because his religious views on gay marriage.
Rabbi Bulka is a bigot who thinks homosexuals are a disease that need to be cured. He shouldn’t just be barred from receiving an honourary degree but should also be brought up on hate speech charges.
Robert Mcclelland….what’s with the homosexual obsession? This is about the 20th time you’ve brought that up…please do tell us……
John G:
Good point. Unfortunately it isn’t THE point as anyone who reads my post will understand.
Greetings Sir,
It is tempting to remind you that our nation’s greatness springs from its Judeo-Christian heritage, not its New and improved Islamic fundamentalist, pro-gay, pro-selfish, humanistic & inclusive hodgepodge tapestry of ideas.
Dont be so harsh with those who believe in God nor should you dismiss them as radicals. If you choose not to then fine. It is tiring to see democrats in the USA who applaud themselves as being enlightened, or liberals here who are smug in their beliefs that they are so tolerant.
Dave G
Montreal, QC CANADA
Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Thy dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in atonement for my sins and those of the whole world. For the sake of Jesus sorrowful Passion- His agony in the garden, His scouraging at the pillar, His crowning with Thorns, His way of the cross, His crucifixion – have mercy on me and on the whole world. Holy God, Holy mighty One, Holy immortal One, have mercy on me and on the whole world.
dear Garth,
Give God the glory and honour He is due. One day, your knees will bow before Him. Believe in the Good News of Jesus Christ. Repent and seek to do the will of your heavenly Father. God loves you. Those you hate, pray for you.
Christine Majta
Eternal Father, I offer Thee the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Thy dearly Beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ in atonement for my sins and those of the whole world. For the sake of Jesus sorrowful Passion- His agony in the garden, His scouraging at the pillar, His crowning with Thorns, His way of the cross, His crucifixion – have mercy on me and on the whole world. Holy God, Holy mighty One, Holy immortal One, have mercy on me and on the whole world.
dear Garth,
Give God the glory and honour He is due. One day, your knees will bow before Him. Believe in the Good News of Jesus Christ. Repent and seek to do the will of your heavenly Father. God loves you. Those you hate, pray for you.
Christine Majta
Using terms like Taliban, Fleurs de Mal and Kool-Aid in reference to Christians, even Christians like McVetty, is not only unwise but incredibly stupid. You are doing the Conservative Party a lot of harm. You talk like a loose cannon. Surely by now you should grow up. Here’s some help for you from Proverbs 10:19–
In the multitude of words sin is not lacking, / But he who restrains his lips is wise.
Cripes Garth. Wasn’t once enough?
Dear Mr Turner; I do hope not all Conservatives think like you. Duck tape would be the answer to the problem you have with your mouth but what do we do with your brain.
Valerie Hughson
Did you mean “duct” tape, or am I now part of the bird flu problem? Actually, I do think most Conservatives are not homophobic and abhor the cult of intolerance that Charles McVety so embodies. — Garth
Mr Turner
I am a long standing contributor and member of the Conservative party . The party ran their successful campaign on a promise of a free vote on the definition of marriage . You seem to agree with Paul Martin that free votes are only for the wise as yourself. If the Party does not consider your objectionable terminology ( Christian Taliban ) unworthy of a verbal rebuke …. I will be surprised . It’s loose canons like you that make the Conservative party look radical. Please grow up !! Save your invective for the Liberals not your party’s supporters. Vincent G Beckie P Eng
Of course I support a free vote, and Stephen Harper is right to make it such. By the way, I never used the term “Christian Taliban.” I likened the faith-based intolerance and exclusion the former Afghanistant government represented to what I see in Defend Marriage Canada and its leader, Charles MvVety. Most Christians – and correct me if I am wrong – are extremely tolerant. — Garth
Dave G:
You have stated with conviction that, “our nation’s greatness springs from its Judeo-Christian heritage.†You state it with conviction but it simply isn’t true.
Our nation’s so called greatness springs from a great number of things including our Judeo-Christian heritage but to imply that heritage is solely responsible for the prosperity and freedom we currently enjoy is patently ridiculous.
Many cultures, faiths and philosophies have come together to make Canada what it is today. To state otherwise is to demean the contributions made by those who do not subscribe to your faith.
Dear Mr. Turner,
Regarding your recent comments on Christians. Opposition to homosexual “marriage” is not a matter of faith, it is a matter of natural law. Just as stealing contravenes the natural law, so does killing unborn children and homosexual activity.
While there is a proper autonomy of the political realm from that of the Church, this means that the state cannot interfere, “except when it is a question of public order,” with matters such as “the profession of faith, worship, administration of sacraments” matters which are specifically religious. It does not mean it cannot interfere with matters such as stealing, murder of human life at all stages of development, and homosexual “marriage”, matters which pertain to the natural law and the common good; on the contrary, the state must combat matters such as stealing, murder, and homosexual “marriage.” The natural law is the objective moral law of right reason written on the heart of every human being and rooted in the very nature of the human person, and the state cannot violate it without being invalid. There is no autonomy of politics from morality.
The legalization of same-sex “marriage” in Canada has contravened the natural law, violating the nature of the human person and the common good, and has undermined the natural rights of families and religious communities (cf. Douglas Farrow, “Why and How Canadians Should Refuse to Recognize C-38″).
Sincerely,
Maureen
Coaldale, Alberta
Maureen:
Let me guess. This “natural law” that is written on the heart of every human being is written in invisible ink and only certain people, you for instance, can read it.
Sweetie, your tinfoil is wrapped a bit too tight.
Maureen
There was a time when dancing, kissing or holding hands in public, long hair, make-up and jewellery, women in the workplace, divorce and a multitude of other things where all considered “un-natural” If it happens in nature it is clearly natural.
You may not agree with it and it may not be good, but it is natural. The only thing true about natural law as you espouse it is that it is constantly changing.
Natural law is about things in nature that are harmonious and continuous.
Me thinks we have found another fundaMENTAList!
Duck tape is for silencing the Quacks
Sounds like you’re a dead duck for next time, Garth.
The lunatic fringe will parachute in some nitwit who will make a total fool of himself and hand the election to Gary Carr.
Unless, of course, your party does something about this situation before the next election.
Yup, anyone who disagrees with Robert McClelland is a bigot…. sigh. Such tolerance. Not! My way or the highway, eh? Is that what Canada is becoming?
Rabbi Bulka has done so much for the community and while he may not agree with some issues…. he is always willing to listen to and respect another person’s viewpoint.
It’s too bad we couldn’t get an island and ship the the McVety’s and the McCLellands onto it.
Personally, the Gay marriage debate is a dead issue- I think the *only* reason Stephen Harper is calling this vote for the fall, is to appease the fringe right of the party.
As for re-election: I voted for you last time, and will again. I like that you stand for something, and aren’t afraid to say it- the whole Emmerson thing. That alone, will likely win you even more votes, than your current dispute w/ Mr. McVety will lose.
The greatness in this country, is I believe in our tolerance of many cultures, and faiths, and that people can speak their minds, and not feat persecution. I don’t know of many other places where Muslims, are beginning to speak about wanting the ‘radical elements*’ of their faith removed; (refering to fundamentalist elements) where they even feel free enough to say that.
* source: http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060609/muslim_leaders_060610
-Laura
boy colour me embarassed, just re-read my comment, and noticed a typo: that should say: fear persecution.
-Laura
Mr Turner
“You said…Just to stand corrected, I did NOT compare Christians to the Taliban. I compared the kind of government that Defend Marriage Canada wants to create here with the faith-based intolerant regime in Afghanistan”
That statement alone is bigotry, not to mention pure nonsense. Are you suggesting that all our previous governments BEFORE the law allowing gay marriage were to be compared to the Taliban?..because that is all that Defend Marriage Canada is about….maintaining the traditional definition of marriage…how it always HAS been.
I dont know where YOUR “Christian morals and ethics come from, but those of traditional Christianity, AND, I assume Mr McVety’s, come from the Holy Bible…which tells us that “a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife, and the two shall be one flesh”…first given in Genesis, and repeated by our Lord Jesus Christ.
KS
KS:
OK. So you’re going to defend the traditional definition of marriage. Let’s say you manage to unseat some competant, intelligent, rational MPs and replace them with your faith based changelings. Then you manage to “fix” this unholy marriage business. THEN WHAT?
Tell us about the future of this country under your faith based regime. Who’s next on your hit list? What’s your take on the economy? The environment? Government day care? Education?
Oops. Did I say education. How do you feel about teaching creationism in science class?
This gay marriage nonsense is just a red herring. Who are you guys and what do you really want?
“Who are you guys and what do you really want?”
- Ah, nothing like positing a broad, sweeping conspiracy theory to derail a reasonable discussion on an issue of great importance. Well done ALW.
Jon:
You sound like a politician. You respond without answering the questions.
You want to be the government? Tell us how you will govern. What follows the resolution of the gay marriage problem?
Do you have a platform? If so how does it differ from the current Conservative Party platform? Where do you stand on critical issues other than gay marriage?
If you plan on fielding candidates these are the questions they will be asked. Are your candidates going to be as evasive as you are? Why won’t you answer the questions I posed in my previous post?
Oh, and McVety’s plan to unseat Conservative MPs and replace them with his own candidates is no theory. It could however be considered a conspiracy.
Hey ALW…take a pill will ya…you’re responding to everyone’s post…..shut up already……BTW..my post was for Garth..not you..Get THE point…..
Dear Prime Minister,
I am writing you concerning the recent diatribe of Mr Turner in which
he attacks Christians as “Taliban”, “anti-democratic”, “divine
cool-aid”, “single-issue militants”, “Afghan militant muslims”,
“freaks”, etc.
As a priest in the Catholic Church, I took risks to publicly encourage
our people to vote for the Conservatives in the past election, I voted
Conservative and am a member of said party.
Mr Turner’s views are insulting to a large segment of Canada’s
population, none of whom can be justifiably labeled as extremist.
Christians in Canada do not engage in violence but use the democratic
process to further their views. His insults have all the hallmarks of
the “extremists” which he so loudly decries. As such, he has lied
concerning our views, methods, and values.
Perhaps the time has come to ask Mr Turner to resign from Cabinet.
Respectfully,
(Rev) Simon deGale
Christ the King Church
3495 Confederation Parkway
Mississauga, ON.,
Canada, L5B 3G5
416-737-0760
905-270-1133
http://homepage.mac.com/degales7/The_Bible/Menu52.html
http://homepage.mac.com/degales7/Da-Vinci_Deception/Menu116.html
For ALW:
Nice one. Wish I had said that. The heart of the matter after all is about governing and having a rational and pragmatic stand on ALL the issues. If you do that you might even make a positive impression on enough people to get yourself elected to parliament.
Cheers.
John G:
Bullshit. You were trolling. You took a shot at others who post here. Somebody shot back. Don’t dish it out…..
Alw…oh you mean the delusional high school self proclaimed bit…..you need only be offended if IT APPLIES TO YOU…..
“Tell us about the future of this country under your faith based regime. Who’s next on your hit list? What’s your take on the economy? The environment? Government day care? Education?
Oops. Did I say education. How do you feel about teaching creationism in science class?
This gay marriage nonsense is just a red herring. Who are you guys and what do you really want?”
You want me to just…answer that question? Who we are and what we “really” want? That and the rest of the barrage of questions you threw out would take several books!
That’s very silly of you really. Of course a great deal of your silliness comes down to your assumption that the gay “marriage” question is just a red herring. If you assume that you can have a whole lot of fun stirring up all sorts of blood-boiling beneath-the-surface conspiracies that these Christian “fundamentalists” (do we even know what that term really means?) are cooking up as they try to topple your secular kingdom of tolerance. And you seem to be having a whole lot of fun with that. But really, I do think you have to get over it. Because I know it might sound strange to you, but some of us find marriage to be a supremely important thing in and of itself. A red herring it most certainly is not.
I think that many of us would absolutely love to tell you where “we” would go from there. But really, I’m not willing at this particular point in time to write a book in response to a bunch of rapid-fire questions put on a blog to, as I said, derail a perfectly legitimate debate on a perfectly legitimate stand-alone topic.
So let’s get back to the issue.
John:
Gee. Like I didn’t see that one coming. This place is too important to waste space and others’ patience with playground spats. If the forum ever gets off the ground I’ll be happy to continue this. As a matter of fact I’m looking forward to it. Until then I’m done. Is it a date?
Jon:
Your issue is gay marriage. I realize that this issue is terribly important to you and others. I even understand it myself to a degree. I’ve mentioned before that I didn’t support gay marriage and I still don’t. I feel that it was jammed down our throats by a small group of Liberal idealogues who are obsessed with their vision of what our society should be.
You want to replace them with a small group of Christian idealogues who are obsessed with their vision of what our society should be.
What is your vision Jon? How will you govern? Answer the question.
Garth, you didn’t prove anything from your original cherry picking as you have accused me of doing the same as you had done in your original post. Funny though. Anyways, he never called you a Nazi if that is what you are trying to infer. As well, Joseph proved that you didn’t mind getting insta-Tories when he worked for you in 93. Somehow I knew that it was just another level of hypocrisy. Whether you know Joseph or not isn’t what is at hand here, as you seem to try and move to that direction.
If you aren’t phased by accusations of irrational behaviour, I am not surprised, amused mind you.
Again, no one has answered my request to find where in the Constitution it says church and state are separated.
Never met this guy, and if you want to know what he said about Nazis and me, just read his “column.” — Garth
Father Degale, I applaud you for your posting here. I am a Catholic as well, but I seem not to have your gift of words. One thing, Mr. Turner is not a part of cabinet. Yes he did label Christians as Taliban as he knows full well that many of the mainstream religions out there support the ideals that Defend Marriage Canada supports. This is common knowledge. Again, thank you.
You either can’t read or choose to distort things. I certainly did not label Christians as Taliban. I have never said anything about Christians. I have, however, shellacked Defend Marriage Canada and Charles McVety for their public attempt to overthrow the political nomination process, giving voters single-issue candidates under the mantle of a major party. I said their agenda of creating a faith-based government, intolerant of others who do not share their moral code, will not work, as it did not with the Taliban. McVety may want to portray himself as Christianity in the body of one man, but I’m not buying it. — Garth
Ok – Garth, here’s the real question:
Did you or not compare Christians who support traditional marriage with the Taliban? Or with members of a cult?
If you didn’t, then say you didn’t and explain what you said or meant.
If you did, then stick to it and explain why you think that people who believe in traditional marriage are fundamentalists and should be compared with terrorists? Simple.
As for separation of Church and State….Does that not mean “don’t mix politics with your own personal beliefs”? How come this only applies to people who have religious views? It sounds like people like you have a very specific view of the world (tolerance, humanism, liberalism), but that doesn’t get in the way of your governing? Somehow, if your views are in line with a major organised religious group, then it gets in the way? I don’t know how you can separate your beliefs from who you are. I am clear that your views are very important to who you are.
This whole idea of separation of Church and State means nothing except “let’s replace any traditional religious beliefs with a state-imposed religion of secular humanism”. You just trade in one set of beliefs for others.
And since you seem to stand for this secular humnanism, am I to assume that you are also for abortion and for euthanasia – might as well get all the “Christian” issues out there. How can you be for democracy and defending everyone’s rights, if you do not first defend the primordial right to life?
The issue is not same-sex marriage or the separation of Church and State. The issue is how an elected member of parliament can have such narrow understanding of religion and beliefs. And how he can have a blog that is anything but tolerant of others beliefs.
Pedro Guevara-Mann
York-Simcoe
Because I know it might sound strange to you, but some of us find marriage to be a supremely important thing in and of itself.
Jon,
45% of Canadian marriages end in divorce. So much for the supremely important institution. Doesn’t seem to me that very many people share your view.
KS,
The Bible also says:
Prov 13:24: “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently).”
Prov 19:18: “Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.”
…and on and on…
Do you beat your children?
Deuteronomy 21: 18-21: “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son, who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they chastise him, will not give heed to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him
to death with stones; so you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
Have your children ever been stoned?
You either can’t read or choose to distort things. I certainly did not label Christians as Taliban. I have never said anything about Christians. I have, however, shellacked Defend Marriage Canada and Charles McVety for their public attempt to overthrow the political nomination process, giving voters single-issue candidates under the mantle of a major party. I said their agenda of creating a faith-based government, intolerant of others who do not share their moral code, will not work, as it did not with the Taliban. McVety may want to portray himself as Christianity in the body of one man, but I’m not buying it. — Garth
No need to lie on here Garth as we all know what you meant. You know very well that Catholics and most Christians are of the same belief about homosexual marriage and you seem to equate this attitude with intolerance and the Taliban. We know what you said and what it means.
You are a complete fabricator. Put words in your own prejudiced mouth, not mine. — Garth
Garth, you supported insta-Tories in 93 bud and Joseph Ben-Ami can attest to that. Now that it doesn’t suit your purpose, you’re against it. Pretty hypocritical.
Once again (and repeat after me) I never met this Ben-Ami guy. Do not know who he is. Have no idea if he supported me or anyone else. And, by the way, I got 76 votes at the leadership convention – and I think I knew them all personally! What a machine… — Garth
Ed, read the whole Bible, you’ll get your answer to your questions as its a pretty silly response to Jon.
Garth, did Joseph insinuate that you’re a Nazi? You keep on putting the 2 together and unlike you, he didn’t label you with a disgusting term as you have done against Christians with the word Taliban.
You have a great deal of time on your hands, don’t you? — Garth
Garth, address the issue. Stop being a liberal and address the issue. Did Joseph insinuate that you’re a Nazi? I know its hard for a politician to answer a question with a straight answer here….
Read the guy’s column for yourself. It’s called juxtaposition. — Garth
Garth, there are no words put in your mouth. You know that Christians don’t support homosexual marriage, you can’t be that blind and yet you think that by calling a group of Christians the Taliban that it doesn’t link other Christians who feel the exact same way?
“You know that Christians don’t support homosexual marriage.” Is that so – all Christians, or just the ones you hang with? You may not be aware of this, but some Christians personify tolerance. — Garth
Ah, the truth is coming out bit by bit now. So, Catholics including the Pope personify intolerance??? You do know that Catholicism is the largest denomination by far don’t you? Where have you been?????
Garth, address the issue. Stop being a liberal and address the issue. Did Joseph insinuate that you’re a Nazi? I know its hard for a politician to answer a question with a straight answer here….
Read the guy’s column for yourself. It’s called juxtaposition. — Garth
I have read it, again I ask: Did he call you a Nazi?
Dear Garth, keep up the good work. Ever think of reviving a party in the spirit of the old progressive Conservatives?
Just a comment to Rev Simon deGale at Christ the King Church that the tax free stsus that his church and faith so thouroghly enjoy here in Canada requires that he not advocate or lobby the governement. That is true for all non profit groups. I am in the process of writing up a complaint about this matter. If the Rev. Simon deGale would like to advocate then he may want to not do it on the backs of taxpayers and quit sending the PM letters of complaint from his parrish who is enjoying the tax breaks they recieve.
Rabbi Bulka obtained his honorary degree on June 13, despite the odd Internet rumour.
Some of us weren’t overjoyed about that, primarily because of his involvement with a bizarre pseudo-scientific outfit in the States that thinks homosexuality is a “disorder” to be cured. Giving him this honour was a direct violation of Carleton Human Rights policy, incidentally.
J Walters, go for it. Complain, see if they listen to you because your complaint is baseless and it just tries to hide your contempt for the religious.
Thank you for standing on and up for your principals.
Obviously, certain people don’t understand that ensuring that one person’s rights are supported does not mean that another’s are negated. Choice is a choice, not an obligation…. Same-sex marriage doesn’t infringe on the rights of non-same-sex couples, and, as far as I have noticed, Canada hasn’t sunk into the abyss because we recognize this.