More than 5,000 people rallied for the Israeli cause on Wednesday night, July 26th, in Toronto in a highly emotional event that also saw more than $6 million raised for that country’s defence effort. Keynote speakers denounced terrorism, reaffirmed Israel’s right to exist as a sovereign and free state, and praised the position of the Canadian government and Prime Minister Stephen Harper. The evening also featured a live hookup with Israel which brought some of the reality of war home to the Canadian audience.
MPtv was there. Click over to the MPtv page, it’s the top item on the video listings.
12 am Thursday report: The video is, believe it or not, being uploaded by vacationing webmaster William Stratas who is in a small village in Crete, some 600 miles from Lebanon. “I was in a big city earlier (9pm Greek time) with high-speed connection but after that, in a small village and the modem connection is only 4 Kbps,” he writes. Therefore the MPtv program I am now linking to is only a small portion of the finished item. Please return in the morning to view the rest, Greek gods permitting. — Garth
10:30 am Friday report: The video transfar ran into some snags. The bad news is that posting it was delayed too long. The good news is we have learned where in the Greek islands the best connections are. “Finalizing now, from Santorini island. High speed is GOOD!,” write Stratas. Should all be complete very soon. — Garth
79 comments ↓
$6,000,000.00 raised for a foreign Countries defence effort how thaughtful.
By the way how much of that 6 million will be going to the family of the missing but presumed dead Canadain Officer, at the hands of Israel’s defence force. And any idea what was raised at the other rally?
I certainly hope that no Tax Receipts were issued for that money, especially when it’s leaving this country for the benefit of another Country’s Military. In fact they should look at this type of contributions the same way they view monies raised for Hexbollah/Hamas etc.
Garth, my wife and I could not agree with you more and fully support your comments on the issue of part-time Canadians taking advantage of our generosity and then loudly complaining about the travel conditions. You may have seen the following comments coming through the e-mail system, but just in case you didn’t, here is one that came to my attention. Right on!
Faye and Gary, Campbellville
Hi Everyone;
>
>I just had to write this to get it off my chest. You may or may not agree
>with my sentiments however they are my opinions.
>
>I was watching CBC news coverage this morning of the events concerning the
>returns of Lebanese-canadians. You’ll note I did not capitalize the word
>Canadians when referring to these people as it was evident by their
>comments that they consider themselves to be Lebanese first and Canadians
>second. The more I watched the madder I got and I ended up turning off the
>television.
>
>A host of the returnees to Canada were complaining about the Canadian
>Governments and it’s slow response. Some of the returnees commented that
>Canada should be ashamed of itself for it’s slow response in getting them
>out. One person complained about taking 11 hours to get to Cyrpress and
>also complained about the sandwiches that they were given. I was stunned at
>the ingratitude of the people being interviewed. Considering the logistics
>involved in getting thousands of people out of Lebanon I think the Canadian
>Government and other governments did well.
>
>I got to thinking about the situation and came to the conclusion that
>Canada now seems to be a land of opportunists, not opportunity. The only
>two people in my family who got a free trip to Europe were my dad and my
>uncle Charlie who were shipped overseas to serve in World War 11. No-one
>asked most of these people to go to Lebanon so a free trip back with minor
>inconveniences is a good deal. Better than being dead I suppose.
>
>Here is the deal. I will arrange to pay for a trip back to war torn Lebanon
>for any Lebanese-Canadian ingrate who agrees to the following. If you feel
>ashamed of Canada and it’s response you should renounce your Canadian
>Citizenship, pay back the government of Canada for the free services you
>received when you came here such as medical, dental, education, job start
>programs, housing, ESL classes, business venture grants etc. and for those
>going back to live in Lebanon give up your CPP benefits
>( a great many Canadians are ignorant about the programs your tax dollar is
>paying for). As I stated earlier Canada seems to be the land of
>opportunists. I wonder what the percentage would be of these ingrates
>serving in our Armed Forces?
>
>Now, you might view me as a radical and a bigot. That is your opinion. The
>above is mine. I am one of many CANADIANS who are just fed up with the
>ingratitude of some and the milking of our government by others. It’s about
>time that people stood up and said enough is enough. Political correctness
>is a way to stifle people from speaking how they feel and in some cases
>speaking what is the truth. Affirmative action is nothing more than reverse
>discrimination. As I stated earlier I am fed up with the hyphenation of
>Canadian citizenship. You are either a Canadian or you are not one.
>
>I intend on sending this letter to my M. P. and anyone else I can think of.
>If you agree with me please pass this on, if not, then press delete.
>
>Mike Crawford
>
>A Canadian from Winnipeg Mb.
This has to be one of the most widely-circulated emails of Canadian history. I am receiving it from somewhere an average of four times an hour. — Garth
Mr. Turner…………
You have my total support. I can add nothing further to your completely accurate take on this situation in Lebanon. I have asksed my MP, Dr. James Lunney, for his views on the subject, specifically mentioning you and the article last Friday in the Calgary Sun concerning the same matter.
I enjoy your refreshing and candid views on this and many other matters.
Rob W.
Parksville, B.C.
Hello Garth,
The following comments are about the “Feeling” that I sense in the way that you are presenting the Jewish and Muslim sides in this conflict.
I wonder if you are trying to foment anti-Muslim sentiment.
What is the point to having a guy say that Jews lived well in Germany before WW2 and that Jews are living well in Canada today but if something goes wrong in Canada that then Jews can go to Israel.
You probably got a lot of footage of the Lebanese rally – I am pretty certain tha there were reasonable people there yet you editted the commentary to create a certain image. I don’t understand what you are trying to promote. Is there a way to view the raw footage rather than the editted final product?
The MPtv broadcast was non-judgmental. I did not edit it. It was a true reflection of what the videographers, and the camera, saw. — Garth
Follow-up.
I hope that by using the imagery of WW2 and the attrocities then the subsequent reference to Canada and things going wrong that you are trying to imply that anyone that does not agree with the staunch unilateral pro-Israeli stance are anti-Semites. Remember as I stated previously that anti-Semitism is about religion and race and NOT about disagreements on military and foreign policy.
$6 million…wow, is that how much it costs these days to blow up innocent civilians?
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR REPLYING TO MY LETTER, EVEN THOUGH I DID NOT RECEIVE MY VOUCHER FOR THE HILTON OR A HEALTH TAX REBATE.
I WILL VOTE FOR YOU OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR STANDING UP, FOR WHAT I BELIEVE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN CANADA FEEL. I KNOW IT IS NOT MAKING YOU TOO POPULAR WITH THE BLEEDING HEARTS BUT WE NEED TO STOP BEING SO MUSHY WITH IMMIGRATION. WE ARE INVITING THE SAME FANATIC BEHAVIORS IN CANADA. ISLAM IS APPARENTLY THE LARGEST GROWING RELIGION IN CANADA, WITH THAT COMES THE EXTREMIST NOTIONS. WE DO NOT NEED THEM HERE IN CANADA. I READ YOUR LETTER IN THE BURLINGTON POST AND I AM GLAD YOU DO NOT FEEL THE NEED TO APOLOGIZE TO CERTAIN MP’S IN MISSISSAUGA.
I ALSO APPLAUD YOUR STAND WITH PROPERTY OWNERS NEEDING A PERMIT TO CUT DOWN TREES. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK, WE NEED MORE MP’S WILLING TO STAND UP AND REPRESENT THE PEOPLE, NOT STANDING UP TO GET VOTES BY BENDING OVER AND GIVING UP OUR CANADIAN WAY. I AGREE TOTALLY WITH YOU ON THIS ISSUE AS WELL.
I HAVE WRITTEN MP’S BEFORE, YOU ARE THE FIRST TO RESPOND PERSONALLY AND DIRECTLY AND NOT JUST WITH A FORM LETTER. YOU HAVE JUST CEMENTED MY VOTE FOR YOU.
GO GARTH AND I HOPE MORE WILL FOLLOW YOUR EXAMPLE, WE CERTAINLY COULD USE MORE VOICES IN GOVERNMENT LIKE YOURS. THANKS AGAIN.
DIANE
In my view this has nothing whatsoever to do with race, it is a western democracy vs islamic terrorist groups – period! I couldn’t care less if Hezbollah/Hamas were Mexican, Chinese, Greek whatever.. if they purposely go around targeting and killing innocent people for years on end, I got a problem with that!! I also couldn’t care less if the Isrealis were budhists (sp?), Christians, or muslims, they are a successful democracy (with all that entails) who have been forced to resort to war to defend themselves from said terrorist groups since they were officially declared a nation by the UN back in 1948 (I think it was). If these terrorists have a problem with Isreal existing as a nation in its present location, then why aren’t they taking it up with the UN instead of attacking Isreal??!
I just don’t understand how people can claim there is any kind of MORAL EQUIVALENCE between one side (Isrealis) who have done everything in their power to avoid killing innocents (but, unfortunately in a war innocent people die) to the other side who have gone out of their way to kill innocent people (including many of their own). Let’s face it, if the Isrealis really wanted to kill innocent Lebanese, there would be many, many more deaths than 500 after more than 3 weeks of war!
Again, many, if not most, of the people dying are because Hezbollah are using them as human shields and/or they are Hezbollah or Hezbollah supporters who had chosen (or were forced) to stay in the area rather than leave (before the bombing when leaflets of warning were dropped for 2-3 days).
If you want to see a good example of how the terrorists use the UN as a shield, check out http://www.stephentaylor.ca/
where he has a video from May 2004 clearly showing a bunch of terrorists (Palestinian gunmen) climbing into the back of a clearly marked UN ambulance (and that is probably why we see the occasional UN ambulance bombed!!). This has been admitted to by some who actually worked for various UN agencies (that their vehicles were used to support terrorism). With the current level of corruption in the UN, it really is not that surprising!!
Zeljko Zidaric: “…anti-Semitism is about religion and race…”
You are quite incorrect, I’m afraid. The word Semetic does not refer to either a religion or a race — it refers to a language group. Arabs are also a semetic people, by th’ way. Those of us who speak English are known as germanics.
It will probably astonish you (and others as well, no doubt) to learn that ethnic Arabs and Jews are also Caucasian.
And as for “fomenting anit-Muslim sentiment,” please try not to spout such ridiculous spewage.
quite right, Charley…
People seem to be forgetting that we are dealing with terrorists here.. They have no problem sitting in civilian areas, firing a few rockets at Israel, and provoking them to retaliate. These terrorists have no problem using the UN as a shield.
Israel is surrounded by states that don’t want them to exist. They give up more and more land, and yet they still get attacked.
I for one, don’t blame them one bit.
The problem will not be resolved until terrorist groups like hezzbolah and hamas are removed.
Even Bill Clinton agrees… See here:
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/story.html?id=6206ceb5-d3f8-46fe-b8e9-bc1f5a4817a1&k=16355
”
Clinton echoed calls for a ceasefire, and an international U.S. and NATO force to be brought into the area. But he made it clear that he believes the fault of the current crisis lies with Hezbollah:
“We’ve got to get these forces — Hezbollah and Hamas —to decide if theyÃre going to play politics, or play war.
“The Israelis aren’t perfect, but they’re in a tough neighbourhood,” he said. “They gave up the Golan and Gaza, and every time they give, they get bashed.”
“
Garth,
From a constituent:
1. Refugee evacuation. You are quite right about prioritizing tourists, aid workers, and other Canadian *residents* over ex-patriates that haven’t lived here or paid taxes for years. Each boat holds only so many and you need to look after the tax-paying ones first, crass as that sounds. The others can come on a space-available basis and can put up some money towards it. If they are broke, then the easy payment plan I guess. No one should view a govt as their “insurance policy” in times of war. Nice if it happens, but don’t expect or demand it. And the complaining about being seasick – give me a break!
2. Support for refugees/immigrants. Presumably some of the evacuees will require social assistance. There is something wrong when the govt pays more to support a refugee than a senior citizen who has lived here his/her whole life. Also persons granted landed immigrant status getting social support. If you sign to sponsor an immigrant, then you must support that person if the immigrant can’t pay for him/herself. If the person goes on social assistance, then you owe the govt. You know this when you sign the form. Be careful whom you sponsor.
I came as a landed immigrant myself and it never occurred to me that I would get social assistance. If i couldn’t make it, then I guess I would go back where I came from. And just because I came here doesn’t mean I get to bring my extended family as a “right”. I never thought of myself as the first slice of the salami.
Mr. Turner, I have to forward this email to you as I think it is so true. This guy would have my vote no matter what party he represented.
I read how you were accused of being “RACIST” because of your views on the Middle-East. I am not really politically inclined, nor have I ever supported the Consevatives I had to send you this email as I totally agree with this writer. I believe you commented on both the Lebanese and Isrealies with dual citizenship and expecting a handout when they leave to go to their homelands after leaving our beautiful country, when they are faced with the present situation in the Middle-East.
I agree with you Mr. Turner and I don’t think you are a “RACIST” I don’t think any of our Prime Ministers, no matter what Federal party they represented,
care about what “REAL CANADIANS” think. Because they are elected by the slightest majority, they become arrogant, and big headed, and this is pointed towards your present leader, SH.
This email expresses what I think the “MAJORITY” of “REAL CANADIANS” feel… Although we are becoming a MINORITY because all the immigrants we accept, not one of the parties will take a stand and say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!. The majority of those who have imigrated to our fine counry in the past 10 or so years are treated better than “REAL CANADIANS” and at the expense of “REAL CANADIANS”. WE give and give , they take and take, and have the nerve to call us “RACIST” when we take a stand and express how we truly feel.
Our immigration policy had to be changed, enough of these “FREELOADERS”. Quit handing them all the benefites on a silver platter. What in hell are “REAL CANADIANS” working for.
Our Medicare system is going downhill as well as our pensions. ALL because the government in power don’t have the backbone to stand up and speak for the people who pay your salaries, “REAL CANADIANS”.
As you can see I am starting to foam at the mouth and what started out to be a couple of lines ends up being a lot more.
Like Mike Crawford of Winnipeg I have to get this off my chest.
Oh! by the way, you haven’t earned my vote yet, but when you take a stand like you did, you may just have what it takes to get my vote if you decide to run for the PM’s job
Thanks for your time and for having a BACKBONE to speak up!! Your puppet of a leader certainly doesn’t have one.
Regards
John K.
Milton, Ontario
Over the past seven years, I have seen my poliitical allegiances slowly shift to the right, so much so that I even did my own small part to help several conservative candidates contest the last federal and provincial elections. I knocked on doors, dropped flyers door to door, and took every opportunity to encourage other young people like myself to vote for the candidates and party that I truly thought would best represent Canada and it’s citizens.
I am sending a copy of this letter to the print media in the hopes of encouraging other Canadians like me to let their thoughts and feelings be heard.
Honourable Prime Minister, Cabinet Ministers, and Members of Parliament:
As a proud and open minded Canadian, I am writing to express to you how disppointed and dispondent I feel when I read and hear about the Canadian government (and specifically the Right Honourable Stephen Harper’s) stance on the current war in the Middle East.
In my eyes, and in those of the very many other young, educated, and enlightened Canadians I have spoken to about this issue, Mr. Harper’s decision to unequivocally back the government Israel in this conflict is a decision that is beyond comprehension.
Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation. They kidnapped and illegally detained Israeli soldiers, and their subsequent demands were unreasonable.
Israel’s reaction however, is selfish, reprehensible and well beyond any level of reasonable justifcation. With all due respect Mr Harper, Israel’s response to this crisis was anything but “measured”:
Israel attacked a sovereign nation, whose head of state and governing party is actually in anti- Hezbollah and anti-Syrian
Israel has nearly destroyed Beirut, a city that is as multicultural and multi-ethnic as any progressive and modern city in Canada
Israel killed hundreds (soon to be thousands) of innocent men, women, and children and has shown little to no regret
Israel displaced over one million civilians, forcing them seek refuge in terrorist states like Syria
Israel bombed and destroyed billions of dollars worth of civilian infrastucture that provides water, electricity and food to an entire population
Israel killed two generations of a Canadian family who were simply visiting the country of their ancestery
Israel’s bombings forced one of biggest evacuations of foreign nationals from any country in recent memory
Israel bombed and killed United Nations observers, including a Canadian citizen
The state of Israel had the military means, might and intelligence to find their soldiers in a manner that would have directly targetted the Hezbollah terrorist organisation with little disruption to the population of Lebanon. Instead, the state deliberately chose to act in a manner that triggered not only a humanitarian crisis in Lebanon, but created a situation which may have set the stage for a massive global conflict, the likes of which the world has only seen twice before.
Mr Harper, Isreal’s actions are not ‘measured’ or justifiable… they are violent, malicious and contemptuous of the rest of the ‘civilized’ world.
I believe that as Canadians, we have a moral obligation to ourselves and the rest of the world to stand up and speak out against unjustified war and aggression, regardless of who the aggressor may be. We cannot stand idly by, let alone publicly support, a foreign regime that places it’s own manifest destiny above the safety and security of the rest of the world.
In my humble opinion, our government’s response was designed to win the favour of the United States government, and to secure the financial backing of a small, yet generally affluent and vocal minority in Canada that supports the Israeli occupation and invasion of it’s neighbours.
Mr Harper and members of the federal government, I strongly urge you to reconsider your stance and represent the majority of Canada in a manner that is befitting of our national conscience.
Thank you,
B. J.
Mississauga, ON
We want Candians first and not be treated as suckers. We need everyone we can get with skills in this country and break down the provincial barriers so we can have the workers in places of need instead of bringing in out of country people to do trades ( unless it Americans where the same Unions can mkake deals ).
So keep up the good work, make a stand on what is right unlike the guys in before you. I fear Isreal will be sacrificed for peace in our time like Czechoslovakia was in 1938 and even if just Sunnis and Shiities are left then they will still be fighting each other, in other words it will never end. We read of moderates in Turkey and other places trying to moderize Sharia Law and they should get wide support hopefully as a lot of the middle east Canadians we have are here to get away from all the “crap” back home.
I worry that some of the ones coming back from Lebanon will have to be watched for Hezbollah connections as some of them are sure vocal enough on TV and radio calls. I have Lebanese acquaintances that have done well in business and in the community. They should not be embarrassed by others of their own.
Thanks, Vic,
Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta.
You are a credit to our Conservative Government. I have followed your input for many years, (I am a 75 year old senior) and it is pleasing to know that you are not afraid to speak your mind.
Thanks again and keep up the good work.
Sincerely,
Harriet W.
Mr. Turner,
Thank you for your position in regards to the costs incurred to the Canadian
taxpayer as it relates to evacuating those
trapped in Lebanon.
It is critically important that we, as a Nation, take all necessary emergency
action to assist those who find themselves
in harms way.
However, it is my view that although the initial transportation costs must be
absorbed by the Canadian taxpayer, those
who have benefited must be asked to reimburse those costs.
Mr. Turner, you have my support.
Respectfully,
Ron A.
Milton, ON
Garth
Ever since my Dad and the family came to Canada after the WW II, we have been supporters of Conservative government, and you.
Although I enjoyed reading your politically correct answer to me, I strongly believe that our troops should go back to being world “peacekeepers” and not get involved in civil wars. They should be there to help solve their problems, not engage in them. My neighbour who was in Bosnia at the time of the Yugoslavian war was so against Serbians, at first. After being there a short time, his attitude changed towards the rest of the Muslins and their power to take over Europe, via Balkan lands. I have read many books on our troops i.e. by Lewis Mackenzie, Scott Taylor etc and still am unable to figure out why we have wars, and always wonder “for what”.
Don’t get me wrong Garth, I’m not against immigrants, but do sometimes wonder what some of those people contribute to Canadian culture.
Here in London, most Muslims were so upset that our government did not get their families out fast enough. Maybe we should have sent 20 jets the minute the the Israeli solders were taken hostage………..please.
Thanks Garth for your response and my support, as usual, will be with you.
Bonnie
BJ:
Couldn’t agree more.
BJ, I couldn’t disagree more!! My take is more like this one from Charles Krauthammer from the Washington Post:
“What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world and given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security?
What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities – every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians – and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy’s infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering?
Hearing the world pass judgment on the Israel-Hezbollah war as it unfolds is to live in an Orwellian moral universe. With a few significant exceptions (the leadership of the United States, Britain, Australia, Canada and a very few others), the world – governments, the media, UN bureaucrats – has completely lost its moral bearings.
The word that obviates all thinking and magically inverts victim into aggressor is “disproportionate,” as in the universally decried “disproportionate Israeli response.”
Israel’s response to Hezbollah has been to use the most precise weaponry and targeting it can. It has no interest, no desire to kill Lebanese civilians. Does anyone imagine that it could not have leveled south Lebanon, to say nothing of Beirut? Instead, in the bitter fight against Hezbollah in south Lebanon, it has repeatedly dropped leaflets, issued warnings, sent messages by radio and even phone text to Lebanese villagers to evacuate so that they would not be harmed.
Israel knows that these leaflets and warnings give the Hezbollah fighters time to escape and regroup. The advance notification as to where the next attack is coming has allowed Hezbollah to set up elaborate ambushes. The result? Unexpectedly high Israeli infantry casualties. Moral scrupulousness paid in blood. Israeli soldiers die so that Lebanese civilians will not, and who does the international community condemn for disregarding civilian life?”
Couldn’t have said it better myself!!
Read the rest here: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/438582p-369513c.html
ALW, hope your flooded basement problem has seen a “speedy recovery”!
Figures you would pick the Washington Post as a fair and balanced source.
I think war was declared between Hezbollah and Israel so to condemn the almost primitive type rockets and condone the sophisticated , precision type weapony seems one-sided.
Last I heard 18 Israeli civilians killed. 600 Lebanese. So who is doing the most damage to civilians?
And what good would an immediate ceasefire do? Ask the civilians on both sides who may be dead by Monday.
Garth: this MPtv feature is great, but it leaves out the two best speakers of the night (I was there) – Maj-Gen Lewis McKenzie, who was intensely critical of the UN, and your old buddy Dr. Charles McVety, who brought the house down with his eloquence and passion. I know you can’t stand the guy, but he was brilliant in his defence of Israel and the Jews, who have suffered so much over the years. Also, I’m glad you noted that Stephen Harper was the hero of the evening – and that’s saying a lot, seeing as the Jewish community of Canada has always been an appendage of the Liberal Party of Canada, with complete hostility to the Conservatives.
dear garth. congratulations on your web site. i think that it’s just great. furthermore i fully agree with the prime minister’s and your position on the issue of the lebanese problem. hezbollah is a proxy for syria and iran and the lebanese people have aided and abetted their mission to destroy the UN mandated homeland of the jewish peoples.
i do have some questions:
why do we permit dual citizenship in cases such as has been highlighted recently where clearly many lebanese ( and others as well ) are “canadians” out of convenience? this must be curtailed.
since lebanon has been in an effective state of war since 1948 why did we feel the need to send ships and planes to evacute those idiots that chose to live there or vacation there? will the government now do this for every canadian citizen anywhere in the world? if not why not?
why have we put up with being held hostage by the first nations in caledonia and elsewhere? this is a huge group of whiners that have squandered billions of dollars and for some reason no politician has the balls to stand up to them. say what you will about george bush but concensus is that he would’ve had the national guard in there ( in the caledonia standoff ) within minutes to bring peace to that issue. even today that land is occupied and from what i hear the locals are being even more brazenly harassed than ever before.
why are saudi arabian backed immams allowed to preach their hatred of the western democratic world in the mosques throughout canada without any consequence? why are we permitting them to be here? we have hate laws… why not use them and expel these religious terrorists?
i’ve lots more on my mind but i think that we share some similarities. just know that i have great hopes for the conservative party and dearly hope that a majority will come it’s way so that real change can be effected in this, still, wonderful country of ours.
keep up the good work. regards,
v.k., burlington
Since there is still a trickle of comment against the Lebanese evacuation costs, I’ll make one final counter-comment, then put it to rest. Put the costs in perspective: these are exceptional circumstances, analogous to the “extraordinary item” that one sometimes encounters in an annnual report. I saw somewhere that there are 2.5 million Canadians living internationally. The world is a large place and the chances of having large numbers of Canadians in any one locale, then having that locale subjected to a catastrophic event, is pretty minute. This even applies to what I’m outright guessing to be say 1 million Canadians in the US – because of that country’s size, the concentration in any one spot would unlikely be large. Now, I have been alive for many decades and can’t recall another time when we did this. Say this costs ½ billion dollars and that there are 20 million tax payers in this country. That amounts to about $25 each in the year that the event takes place, or because this is such a rarity, it could be prorated over the many years between such events and would amount to no more than a couple of Tim Horton’s coffees in a given year. I would gladly give up those coffees to save the lives.
I’ve heard on the news tonight that the pan-Arab rumblings are growing, with Shiite and Sunni being asked to overlook their own animosities and direct them towards Israel. I still have faith that this will cool before reaching the brink, but if not, the Canadian government may take my popsicle money too to bring Israelis to safer ground. Should circumstances escalate to that point, I’m sure there’ll be more to worry about than missing the odd cool treat on a hot night.
Judy, the reason there are many more Lebanese deaths than Isreali deaths are because:
1) Hizbollah CHOOSES to place themselves militarily in close proximity of innocent civilians (in schools, mosques, peoples’ homes), contravening the Geneva Convention I might add, so they can use them as human shields while the Isrealis make sure that all of their military targets are as far as possible from innocent civilians (not that it matters too much because Hizbollah shoots for innocent civilians anyway..)
2) Lebanon has never bothered to build bomb shelters for people (such as the Isrealis have), despite the volatile history and their “embrace” of Hizbollah within both their government and their society (some would say that they don’t care too much for the safety of their own).
BOTH sides have to agree to a ceasefire and Hizbollah refuses to disarm..how do you force a ceasefire if one side CONTINUES TO FIRE??!! The ceasefire will come (as already agreed to by Isreal) once the NATO forces are ready to move into the buffer zone, only problem will be finding countries willing to put troops into this mess…will probably take a couple of months I would expect! And even NATO forces will discover how intent these islamic extremists are on “wiping Isreal off the map”, I think they will see NATO as simply another occupying force against them, no different from the Isrealis, and will wage “Jihad” on them too.
By the way, did you hear about what has been going on in Somalia? When will people open their eyes to the fact that ALL of these world conflicts come back to one basic “root of evil” which are the Islamic extremists. And by the way…they don’t just hate Jews…
Charley: My opinion. The Western world knew that Lebanon was at best a fragile democracy. Yet it passed a resolution expecting it to disarm Hezbollah-The U.S. did not expect Iraq to disarm AlQuaeda on its own-they are still there helping the Iraqi army with militants.
Why did they not have the foresight to anticipate that Hezbollah would grow in strength and numbers and control all of southern Lebanon?
You think the U.S,. and the U.K. did not know what would eventually happen?
I think they knew exactly what would happen and welcomed it-what better way to instigate the inevitable confrontation they have always wanted with Syria and Iran.
So, please, don’t blame the government of Lebanon for the takeover of Hezbollah. Blame the U.S. and its allies for allowing Lebanon to face Hezbollah without military support.
Let me share with you my impression about documentary I have recently seen. The first was about Saudi Arabia. There was a room with several women seated around a table. It was difficult to figure out how many of them were there because, covered head to toe with burqas, they all looked like big, black bowling pins and were just as impossible to tell apart.
The women were trying to outdo each other extolling their incredibly good fortune to have been born into a culture that went to such drastic extremes to protect their honour. I listened for a while how happy they were to have to ask male relatives for a written permission to leave the house every time they had to go somewhere; how beautiful it was to become a third wife to a man you had never met until he climbed into your bed to claim your virginity; how wonderful it was to live without a face that could attract unwanted attention, without a clitoris that might produce a sinful sensation, without a job that might result in a dangerous exposure to strangers, without freedom that could be so easily abused, without practically everything that makes up a normal life of a normal person in a normal world.
Of course, normalcy is in the eye of the beholder. But while listening to them speak in Arabic and reading the translation of their halleluiahs in the subtitles; I suddenly remembered what I had read about the will left behind by Mohammad Atta, the leader of the 9/11 highjackers. In his will, Mr. Atta, the great Muslim hero, mastermind and executioner of the most spectacular mass murder of modern times, demanded that no woman, especially no pregnant woman, be allowed to desecrate his holy memory by attending his funeral or visiting his grave. There goes your honor, sisters, I thought. No matter what you sing while perched in your cages, your owners will always find a way to remind you that you are nothing but unclean animals.
What can be worse than being a slave? Only being a loyal slave.
The other time they were airing a documentary about North Korea. They showed a North Korean defector who used to be in the military. He had served as a guard at a prison camp. People jailed there were mostly guilty by association with a known criminal, but their association was not strong enough to warrant an execution. They were imprisoned together with their entire families. The inmates had no rights whatsoever. The guards had the power to execute any of them on the whim, without the formality of a trial. Inmates, who committed offences that, in the opinion of a guard, deserved to be punished by death, were rarely executed alone. Usually, they went to their doom accompanied by their families and neighbours. The former guard told about an especially memorable day when he personally killed 31 people. He didn’t reveal what any of them had done wrong. He also told how guards routinely killed babies born to inmates by throwing them on the ground and stepping on their throats. That was not a punishment; that was a routine procedure performed immediately after birth in front of a still bleeding mother. But even that was not the most interesting part of his interview.
The main purpose of that particular camp was to test chemical and biological weapons on human subjects. The former guard naively called people who conducted the tests “scientistsâ€. An inmate didn’t have to commit any offence to be used as a guinea pig. Usually, he or she had to be generally healthy and, sometimes, have some special physical characteristics. The former guard told about one particular occasion when he escorted a family, the parents and two young children, a boy and a girl, to a gas chamber. The walls of the chamber were made out of glass so that the progress of the experiment could be observed. The four were stripped naked and placed inside.
Try to imagine what it was like for them. Even for prisoners of a concentration camp, life goes on as long as they are still alive. Imagine the two adults, suddenly taken away from the gruelling daily routine of the camp, thinking of the work that was to be resumed when they were allowed to return to their barracks, standing in the middle of a glass cage, trying to cover their nakedness. Imagine the two children, unaware that their life could have been very different from what it was, looking with normal children’s curiosity at the unfamiliar surroundings.
Then gas was pumped into the chamber. It didn’t kill them instantly. For a while, the dying parents were trying to save their children by giving them mouth to mouth, but that, of course, didn’t work. While they were dying, the “scientists†positioned around the glass walls were busily taking notes.
We’ve all heard the version of World War II history a la Pat Buchanan that proclaims that the United States decided to enter the war in order to liberate Jews from German concentration camps. If we were to believe that, we would have to express our regrets that the decision didn’t come 6 million Jews earlier. But let us not worry about the Jews who have been dead for so long that the very fact of their pre-Auschwitz existence is easier to deny than to confirm.
Not so long ago, NATO — mostly, the United States — bombed Yugoslavia out of existence for the alleged, but still unproven crime of genocide against its Muslim population. Why then the United States, along with NATO and the rest of the peace-loving world, wouldn’t even consider going to war to liberate North Koreans from the North Korean concentration camps?
Why did a bra placed by a fool in uniform on the head of a terrorist held in Abu Ghraib attracted more attention of the humankind than the mass murder of North Koreans — or even the mass murder of Iraqis that went on at the very same Abu Ghraib for decades, while Saddam Hussein was in power?
Why the detention center at Guantanamo Bay, where prisoners are kept in more humane conditions than in any other POW camp in history, although never in history captives deserved so little humanitarian concern, excites defenders of human rights so much more than the tortured death at the hands of “Dear Leader’s†goons of people who had done nothing wrong?
While the dying parents were desperately blowing poison from their lungs into the poisoned lungs of their dying children, the institution misnamed the International Court of Justice was diligently seeking the legal basis for the condemnation of Israel for building a fence in an equally desperate (and, predictably, equally futile) attempt to prevent Arab terrorists from murdering Jews. Of the three, only the court achieved its goal. The population of this planet of ours supported the unjust decision of the unjust court with rare unanimity. Neither the Arab atrocities, nor the Korean ones have succeeded in attracting the attention of the court or its world-wide courtroom.
To a naïve person, this may look like most people on Earth have suddenly lost their God-given ability to tell good from evil. Such a hypothesis can be easily disproved. If the humankind had been choosing between the two randomly, then, in approximately 50% of the cases, they would have opted for good. This is not happening. The humankind has made its choice and is sticking to it.
When Israel put Saddam out of nuclear business, the entire world, including the United States, condemned the unprovoked Israeli aggression against a sovereign country. (In the Reagan cabinet, the most enthusiastic proponent of a severe punishment for Israel was the then-Vice President George H. W. Bush.) There was no logic in that condemnation. Israel would, no doubt, become Saddam’s first target, but believing that it would have remained his only target is beyond ludicrous. In 1981, Israel literally saved the world. Years later, the West acknowledged Israel’s heroic deed in the most unofficial manner possible.
History repeats itself. Today Israel is fighting Hezbollah, and, as it always happens, the majority of governments, organizations, and individuals around the globe condemn Israel for defending itself. But Israel is not only defending itself. Like Saddam’s aborted nukes, Hezbollah is not just threatening Israel. Its sleeper cells are omnipresent in Western countries. What are those countries pushing for? A ceasefire — the only way to prevent the demise of Hezbollah at the hands of its righteous nemesis. Why do people want to save a terrorist organization, which, at the very first opportunity, will turn their own cities into Beirut on the Thames, Beirut on the Spree, Beirut on the Seine, Beirut on the Niagara.
God promised Abraham to bless those who bless Jews and to curse those who curse them. A few short years ago, you might need some complex reasoning and compelling historic examples if you wanted to convince the ignorant that, so far, God has kept His promise. On July 24, all the proof you needed could be found in a short documentary posted on CNN. It showed two Lebanese children severely burned by Israeli bombs. Even though the show might have been staged — Arabs are well known for this kind of PR and Western reporters are usually happy to present their productions as documentaries — I knew that Israeli raids on Lebanon have caused civilian casualties, and some of them were children, and some of those children suffered the way no human being should suffer.
Such is the price the Lebanese people are paying for their hatred of Jews, in general, and their support of Hezbollah, in particular. As terrible as that price is, it doesn’t look unfair or disproportionate to me. You may be a Jew-lover or Jew-hater, Conservative or Liberal, Communist or Nazi, Sunni or Shiite, but as long as you stick to the facts, you must know that, in the last two thousand years, Jews have been the only people on earth who have never committed an act of aggression against anyone, including Lebanon.
Nevertheless, CNN will not show you even a two-minute-long movie about the suffering of Jewish children who have become victims of Arab aggression against Israel, although there is a not too subtle difference between the two groups of victims: The Jews, including even infants, were targeted deliberately, and the cesspool known as the Arab street has supported the attacks enthusiastically and unanimously. Why then should they and their children be exempt from a similar fate?
Now would be a good time for you, liberals, to remind me about the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Conventions protect the innocent from harm at the time of war. Or do they? In a hypothetical war between Switzerland and Denmark, they might. A hypothetical war between Switzerland and Denmark would be fought by properly uniformed armies, and every person who wasn’t armed or wearing uniform would be classified as an innocent civilian.
But ask any Muslim, and they will tell you that a non-believer cannot be innocent by the definition, be he or she a member of enemy armed forces or a church choir. This is perfectly logical. Everyone can convert to Islam at any moment. All it takes is a formal announcement witnessed by Muslims. By choosing not to convert, you are persisting in your crime of unbelieving; therefore, you are not innocent; therefore, you are not a subject to the mythical benevolence that, according to Condoleezza Rice, is found at the heart of Islam. Therefore, killing you, or your child, or your grandmother, or, better yet, all of you together, would promote jihad and, therefore, be perfectly legitimate according to Muslim laws.
Jihad, which is the only state in which Islam can exist, is an interesting phenomenon. Modern jihad is not fought by armies, and it’s easy to see why. Iraq had the most powerful army in the entire Muslim world. During its war with Iran, it inflicted terrible devastation on its enemy. But when confronted by the United States military, it was unable to present any opposition whatsoever. That’s why modern jihad is being fought by civilians.
Uniformed soldiers are liable to be shot on sight. Thanks to what we mistake for humanism, civilians who ambush and blow up our soldiers in Afghanistan are subject to criminal prosecution, the so called “due processâ€. The reality convincingly demonstrates that the “due process†is totally senseless in the context of modern jihad. Therefore, the jihadists are fighting us unopposed.
It is the same with Hezbollah and Hamas. Contrary to what you hear from Western politicians, they do not have to disarm. The formidable goals of these organizations cannot be fulfilled without a prolonged armed struggle. Those goals are wholeheartedly supported by tens of millions of seemingly moderate Muslims who constitute their power base. Hezbollah and Hamas are responsible to neither Western governments nor naïve Western pacifists. They are solely responsible to those who put them in power. And those who put them in power want them armed, because Hezbollah and Hamas defend their interests.
Therefore, if you want to take power from Hezbollah and Hamas, disarming them is not an option, because those who put them in power will eventually find a way to arm them again. Physically exterminating Hezbollah and Hamas is not an option either, because those who put them in power will find plenty of others willing to fill the vacancies. Physically exterminating those who put them in power is not an option either, because that would have inevitably amounted to genocide, and our civilization prefers to succumb to genocide rather than inflict one, unless, of course, the people on the receiving end of it are Jews. That’s why the UN, along with the entire peace-loving humanity, is so worried about the Lebanese who have been suffering at the hands of the ruthless Israeli aggressors for almost three weeks, but hasn’t done squat to protect Jews from the Arab aggression that’s been going on for at least 6 decades.
The only remaining option is to attempt to eradicate Islam without eradicating Muslims, because Islam is the motivation behind jihad. Technically, this is possible (remember World War II?), but only technically, because Islam is a religion, and all religions are equal in the eyes of the enlightened Westerners.
So, what’s the solution? There is none, unless we decide to fight jihad in earnest. But there is no danger of that. Today, the United States has found it to its political advantage to resist the calls for ceasefire in Lebanon. Tomorrow, as it has happened so many times in the past, it will change; Israel will be instructed to stop in the middle of a battle, and Islam will be handed yet another victory it could have never won on the battlefield.
Alex Crow, Toronto
The parliament of Lebanon has 23 Hezbollah members (elected by the Lebanese people). The government of Lebanon has 3 Hezbollah cabinet ministers. The President of Lebanon supports his “resistance” fighters – the Hezbollah. The President of Lebanon is close to Syria. (see the National’s interview with him tonight) Do you think the this president of Lebanon didn’t know that the Hezbollah was amassing weapons in his people’s homes – for they are just cowards who hide behind their women and children? -Honey I’m home – see my new rocket?
The opinions expressed in this Real-Audio link oughta stir up a few passions; if you listen closely, there’s something here for everyone:
Irish Observing Fighting in Lebanon
http://cbc.ca/ottawa/media/audio/ottawamorning/20060728TOPJ28.ram
Excellent post Alex!! I completely agree, where is the shrill cry from the “left” for all of the incredibly inhumane suffering of Saudi women, North Koreans, Darfurians, et al? Why are they so “stuck” on Isreal as the sole aggressor and are happy to continue blaming Isreal and the US for everything that they percieve to be “wrong” with the world? In this country in particular, is it the ongoing “Bush Deragement Syndrome” do you think or is there that much anti-semitism? I really can’t comprehend the current attitudes and moral positions. I am not Jewish (or Middle Eastern), just a “political/news junkie” and to me the right/wrong or good/bad is crystal clear and there is no way anyone could ever convince me otherwise!
I was reading a post somewhere lately that described how some cops categorize people into 3 types:
Good guys – people who act and are willing to put themselves in danger sometimes to help others such as someone who intervenes if witnessing a man beat his wife in a parking lot.
Bad guys – people who also act but out of completely selfish reasons who have no regard whatsoever for others.
Neutral – people who refuse to act one way or another and are perfectly happy to stand idly by and do nothing, regardless of what they may be witnessing.
The cops deem the neutrals to be the hardest to tolerate because of their total lack of moral conviction.
I guess we have an awful lot of neutrals in this country and definately not enough “good guys”.
Alex Crow – you are a very ignorant man. I wonder if some of your comments border on hate speech. You are so very transparent. I wonder if you are an agent provacateur. You scare me.
Your comment “two thousand years, Jews have been the only people on earth who have never committed an act of aggression against anyone, including Lebanon.”
Please reference the following you ignorant man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_terrorism
Just out of curiosity – who was responsible for the death of Jesus Christ? Directly and indirectly?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_jesus#Arrest.2C_trial.2C_and_death
Alex – and even with my disagreement with you and your rabid racist statements and my references to the wikipedia articles – I can still assure you that I am NOT an anti-semite becuase I have nothing against the Jewish people, the Jewish race or the religion.
Alex – can I ask you something. Since I am a gentile – do you see me as an equal human in the eyes of your god?
BJ,
Calm down, you are nearly hallucinating. Your wild exagerations do not reflect reality.
Not to minimize this terrible conflict but to suggest that Israel have intentionally targetted civilians is ridiculous. They have the power to kill tens of thousands every day if they chose to do so. Remember that they dropped leaflets advising in advance several days before they attacked specific areas. I don’t recall Hezbullah advising any Israeli civilians where they were next targetting the hundreds of rockets they send nearly daily. And if and when their rockets become more accurate, do you suppose they might inform those in their sights before pulling the trigger? I don’t think so. When do you suppose that they will tell the people in restaurants and markets in advance before they detonate the explosives attached to a childs body?
BTW some reports and I tend to believe them, indicate that the bombing has been pretty much been only in the Hezbulla occupied areas such as in south Lebanon near the Israel border, in South Beirut, and in the Bekka valley which adjoins Syria (where the armaments, like the 13,000 rockets, are imported through Syria).
Lewis.
“I think they knew exactly what would happen and welcomed it-what better way to instigate the inevitable confrontation they have always wanted with Syria and Iran.”
Judy, you’re nuts.
Alex: You had my attention until you quoted the bible as a source.
I think if you look at the holy books of Christians, Jews, and Muslims you will find that all of their “gods” have promised them that land. And has promised to bless the people who occupy that land.
2000 year old land claims are a tricky business. Just ask the Native Americans/Canadians who are asking for the same land rights.
Judy:
Actually the Jewish claim is the weakest if you use biblical prophecy as a guide. They are supposed to be rounded up and returned to the promised land by the Messiah. They seem to have jumped the gun. Last time I checked they were still waiting for him to show up.
Is there anything Judy et al. can’t blame on the USA?
P.S. My toast got burnt this morning. I think it was somehow the fault of the USA and George Bush!
Judy,
My view:
The debate on whose land it rightfully is, will never end. There is no meaningful statute of limitations appicable and even if there was it would not be acceptable to both parties.
What is most important is for the parties to agree to establishing mutually acceptable borders. It appears that this is now close to being a reality insofar as Lebanon at least is concerned. If following such an agreement, these borders must be fully respected by all of the parties involved.
The constant bickering over the past will not solve this or any future crisis that there most certainly will occur. By agreeing on the borders and “casting them in stone”, the third parties such as Iran who attempt to use this conflict to further their own ambitions of expanding their hateful Islamic terror style of government can be held in check. If so, at least some good may come out of this situation.
It is of concern particularly to the western democracies, the extent that the propaganda machine of Tehran has succeeded in impacting public opinion against Israel in this conflict.
Thus, IMO, the debate on whose land claims are the most valid, are in reality academic. Also, pacifism is not a solution to dealing with radical religous regimes or organizations, whether they be Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Hezbulla or Hamas.
Lewis
Garth
Please clarify if MPtv edited footage at the Rally for Israel and at a march that was staged in support of Lebanon, Hezbollah, Palastine etc
You indicated in a response to a blog participant that you DID NOT edit the Lebanon march.
However another blogger that attended the Rally for Israel indicated that she watched MPtv ‘s footage of the Rally for Israel and you did some editing there. I did copy/paste there remarks as indicated below.
Q: Why would you edit one event but not the other. Does MPtv have a policy of editing all the time or are you committed to presenting what actually happens … totally unedited and presented?
Below is the comment /question from a blog participant.
The MPtv broadcast was non-judgmental. I did not edit it. It was a true reflection of what the videographers, and the camera, saw. — Garth
y Zeljko Zidaric on 07.28.06 9:15 am
Comment from an attendee at the Rally for Israel.
“Garth: this MPtv feature is great, but it leaves out the two best speakers of the night (I was there) – Maj-Gen Lewis McKenzie, who was intensely critical of the UN, and your old buddy Dr. Charles McVety, who brought the house down with his eloquence and passion. I know you can’t stand the guy, but he was brilliant in his defence of Israel and the Jews … ”
It is impossible to run raw and unedited video, since the finished product would be several hours long, make no sense to the viewer and be completely unsuited to Internet broadcasting. In this case both events were covered and recorded, then the video cut down to 9-10 minutes. In that reduction process every attempt was made to keep it tue to what was actually seen by the camera. Redundancies were eliminated and more focus was put on comments by participants than the speeches of stakeholders. Not all of the speakers at the Israel rally were included in the video for that reason.
Bottom line: MPtv gave more representation to these events than the MSM, and it was non-judgemental in both cases. — Garth
Garth & Stephen
I’m seriously concerned about the war in Lebanon and what appears to be
hugely miscalculated & excessive force by Israel – how can our Prime
Minister talk about a “measured response” when the people of Lebanon,
including Canadians are paying such a huge price for this? (has Israel
suffered near the amount of civilian casualties in the last 10 years as
Lebanon has in the last 10 days?).
I firmly believe that history tells us that “Violence only begets Violence -
when it comes to religious conflict” – I am not against war but I fail to
see the progress that Israel and it’s supporters (Canada included) expect to
gain from this – instead I think we will all reap more disdain from Islamic
states and adherents and ultimately become targets of terrorism – will that
have brought peace? … there has to be another way to open dialogue between
our secular (Christian) states and the Islamic ones (I suspect there are
many people in our country who have the dialogue and have seen that we are
more similar that different – why not promote understanding instead of
force?) …. do you have proof or evidence that in religious/ethnic
conflicts force from one side to another brings peace? … I think Canada
can do more by being neutral and promoting peace instead of supporting
violence through force.
I am happy to discuss this with you – please register my disapproval of
Canada’s current stance.
Henry F.
Burlington, Ont.
Henry, that Canada *was* neutral is a myth.
One of the parties fighting, from inside Lebanon, the Hezbollahs, have been declared to be terorists by this country, including the Liberal Party of Canada.
This is from the site of the NCCAR, (National Council on Canada-Arab Relations), provided *to* them *from* the Liberal Party of Canada.
http://www.nccar.ca/media_centre/LiberalPartyPeaceProcessMiddleEastJanuary2006.doc
“Supporting the Peace Process in the Middle East
(Provided by the Liberal Party of Canada – January 2006)
“Terrorism
Canada condemns all acts of terrorism, wherever they may occur. Terrorists should be brought to justice and prosecuted in accordance with international law. Terrorism must be rejected as a means for achieving political ends. It is counterproductive to reaching a comprehensive, just and lasting peace settlement.
Canada has listed Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, and other groups as terrorist organizations in accordance with UN Resolution 1373 (2001) and Canadian legislation.”
Are we to deal with terrorists in the same manner as nations?
Henry F.
A little perspective:
Could you imagine the leader of any significant Canadian Christian church, or any other non- radical muslim,
leading a heavily armed group of guerilla fighters, and he declares that it is their intention to wipe out (thats kill all)those humans of another religious group.
The radical, violent Islamic radicals all have this as a common goal for many of their fellow man, be it the Jewish, the Christians or essentially all “infidels” (non Muslims).
As another example, could you see the Pope espousing such hateful diatribe as this Nasrallah fellow, the leader of the terrorist group in Lebanon does.
I am amazed how many gullible and naive Canadians have fallen for the propaganda
of the Hezbulla. Also the “choosing sides”, “even handedness” and “nuetral” nonsense, particularly from those of the left wing persuasion. I would venture to guess that nearly all of those with such views have not spent any appreciable time in that part of the world. During my years in the middle east I recall a Lebanese friend who had just had a one week visit to Caanada, saying how he noticed how gullible and naive Canadians were,yet were very nice. He didn’t say that in the context of it being a negative comment, I think he was right.
My views of religion have changed as a result of seeing the amount of bloodshed in the name of religion, particularly in the middle east.
Lewis
Just a comment on your posting.
In this day and age I cannot imagine the Pope calling for the death of all non-christians. But Christians have killed for that reason before. The Islamic faith is not led in a central way like Christianity. They don’t have a Pope- like figure or leader. There are also many sub-groups just like Christianity.
There are Chritian groups that are active that would love to kill non-believers. What about the Christian Militias in the USA. Most people ignore them and don’t see them as representative of the Christian Faith.
There is gulliblity on both sides.
These terrorists are simply hi-jacking there religion to suit there needs. We are guillable to think that they speak for all of Islam.
We need to see them for what they are Terrorists, not angry religous people.
If a Priest declared that all non-believers should be killed and tried to carry that out using a Jesuit Militia, would you blame all Chritians and the Pope or would you think that this is a crazy Priest that is a terrorist? Our problem is we don’t know the difference and don’t really want to take the time to learn!
Lewis
Further to your aquaintance from Lebanon. He spent one week in Canada and he thought that we where gullible and very nice.
I am sure he thought that, but I can say from experience that anyone coming to a new country, and for only 1 week would not be able to make a very educated assessment of the culture. Jet lag can take 3 days to wear off and you are telling me that his assessment was made in just a few days and somehow that was correct. Did he actually leave the airport?
Kevin:
I know a number of people from Hong Kong. They say essentially the same thing except they aren’t interested in killing or converting us. They just want our money.
Charlie,
Thank you for your encouragement. I appreciate it. Your 6 years old daughter has a good parent.
Have you ever thought that in the unfolding conflict between the Muslim world and our civilization, the Moslems behave much more consistently than the West?
If I believe that you are unlawfully occupying, let’s say, an island that’s rightfully mine, I will send troops to that island. Their task will be to suppress any military resistance your army can offer, and re-establish my ownership over that piece of land. There is absolutely no need for me to target civilians in such a conflict: from any perspective, it would be not just immoral, but totally counterproductive vis-a-vis my goals in the conflict.
Jihad however is not about territories. It is about a way of life. If I wanted to destroy your way of life, going after your military installations would be largely futile, especially if your military might was a billion times greater than anything I could ever dream of amassing against you. Your army, no matter how powerful, is only a tiny portion of your way of life. Blowing up an office building full of so called “innocent civilians†advances my cause much farther and much more convincingly (especially if you respond by engaging in soul-searching instead of exterminating me once and for all, which is perfectly within your power) than killing the same number of military personnel, precisely because those civilians are the most important, irreplaceable components of the way of life I am trying to destroy. Their “innocence†is non-existent. The term is nothing but an absurd euphemism for their absurd inability to defend themselves. Think about it: how can an infidel be innocent? Isn’t it an obvious contradiction in terms?
If you think I am being sarcastic, read the previous paragraph again: I am only trying to explain how the enemy’s mentality is better suited for the conflict than ours.
During World War II, when the very survival of our civilization was in question (although not as acutely as it is now), the United States treated enemy civilians in a more reasonable manner than our current impotent, defeatist morality dictates. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed along with most of their 100% civilian population despite the fact that they had not a single military installation in either of them. As a result, Japan surrendered. As a result, lives of about a million American soldiers were spared, along with probably four or five times that many Japanese, most of them innocent civilians. Conclusion: Japan should not have put the United States in a position where even humanitarian gestures would be so murderous for the Japanese.
In recent times, Israel is being daily penalized for killing Palestinian “unarmed civiliansâ€. Nothing can be more absurd, considering that “Palestinian people†didn’t even exist until after the Six Day war, when that shameful misnomer was assigned to the largest and most successful terrorist organization in history. An Arab on the way to glorious martyrdom remains an unarmed civilian until he or she straps the explosives to his or her body. People who organize terrorist acts are considered unarmed civilians until their affiliation with a terrorist organization is proven, preferably in court. Women that lured 13 Israeli soldiers into a murderous trap in Jenin were perfectly unarmed civilians. Louis Farrakhan and his army are considered unarmed civilians. Mosques, those foreposts of Jihad spread around Canada, the United States and Europe, are considered off limits as religious institutions.
A religious cult requiring animal sacrifices would most probably cause wide spread protests and be eventually outlawed in this country. However, a cult that demands human sacrifices on the a global scale — conversion, enslavement, or extermination of all “infidel†everywhere in the world, a cult that is raising its own children for the purpose of dying while committing murder — is respectfully classified as a “monotheistic religion†and “Abrahamic faithâ€. In reality, it is Satan himself clumsily disguised as a saint.
We are doomed to destruction unless we start treating Islam the way we did Nazism. I am not calling for an anti-Muslim genocide: our decisive victory in WWII was achieved without exterminating the Germans. Instead, we exterminated Nazism. Today, we have no choice but to exterminate the most murderous ideology that has ever existed — Islam.
I see many parallels between today’s world and the situation at the beginning of WWII. With the sole exception of Great Britain, not a single government tried to oppose Hitler. If Hitler had not betrayed Stalin, the Soviet Union would’ve had no reason to oppose him either. Contrary to the popular myth, the United States did not enter the war to stop the Holocaust: they did it to prevent Stalin from going all the way to the Channel and creating the European Union a few decades prematurely.
Today, Moslems invade civilized countries under the benign guise of immigration. Their influence in Europe and even in the United States and Canada is growing steadily and will continue to do so unopposed until we finally wake up, although it’s hard to tell if we are going to do it in time to save ourselves. Hypnotized by our own impotent dogmas, we stubbornly refuse to recognize seemingly unrelated events — the never-ending Arab war against Israel, the September 11, the war in Chechnya, the terrorist acts in various parts of the world, the plan of beheading Canadian PM — for what they are: individual fronts of steadily growing Jihad, whose openly stated purpose is to destroy our civilization and establish the rule that would make Taliban and Hezbollah look helplessly liberal. So far, they are winning.
Alex Crow, Toronto
“There are Chritian groups that are active that would love to kill non-believers.”
While that may or may not be true, at least they aren’t doing it on the scale that alqueda, hamas, and hezzbolah are doing it.. Have some recent examples you care to share?
“We need to see them for what they are Terrorists, not angry religous people.”
I agree.. So why do you seem to defend them when Israel decides to take a stand against them? Do you agree with hezzbolah’s methods? (using UN for shields, using Lebanese for human shields). For hezzbolah, it’s all good either way — whether it’s dead citizen’s of lebanon or israel — if you’re not with them, you’re better off dead in their view.
“Our problem is we don’t know the difference and don’t really want to take the time to learn!”
I don’t think there is much to learn when there is a group that declares it sees no problem with the use of violence and terrorism to achieve their goals in the name of what or whoever. Are they representative of their whole religion? No — I don’t think anyone is saying that. It is up to the moderates within that religious body to set the record straight and denounce these activities — and I would even say they should work to curb extremist views amongst them that might lead to supporting terrorist groups, etc. Just take a look at Canada’s favorite terrorist family, the Khadrs.. Sure — mama Khadr hasn’t fired a gun or blown anyone up yet, but she was pleased as punch on 9/11.. I’d say that qualifies as extreme, wouldn’t you say? Where are her peers, or for that matter, others in Canadian society, denouncing her views and distancing them from those of other followers of Islam? And now she’s off supporting the latest bunch of Canadians that have been in the courts accused of planning large terrorist acts.. I’m not sure if Khadr support is helping or hurting the defence in that case!
Alex, I, too, get a sense of foreboding that if we don’t get our heads out of our collective “derriers” soon that it might be too late to turn back the clock!
Some countries in Europe are starting to wake up a little to the huge problem created by multiculturism and lax immigration policies (even extremely liberal Holland!!) and are trying to shift the paradigns but are encountering the same “blindness” from the “left” or the “neutrals”.
I guess it’s human nature to not want to see, not want to believe, that there could be such inherent evil that wants to “kill all infidels” but when you start reading and researching Islam itself it’s really very frightening.
(I suggest you check out this website if you haven’t already: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com)
Certainly the islamic fascists radicalize this religion but what bothers me so much is that there is no cry of protest from the “moderate” Muslims, they have been largely silent…where are they, especially here in Canada?? Why aren’t they out on the street protesting for a Lebanon FREE of Hizbollah since that would be, undoubtedly, the best thing for the Lebanonese people who could then live peacefully alongside the Isreals as they had been doing (and quite well until Hizbollah started all this crap again, maybe that’s partly why??).
Kevin:
“There is gulliblity on both sides.
These terrorists are simply hi-jacking there religion to suit there needs. We are guillable to think that they speak for all of Islam.” .
“We need to see them for what they are Terrorists, not angry religous people.”
..
“We are guillable to think that they speak for all of Islam.” .
“I am sure he thought that, but I can say from experience that anyone coming to a new country, and for only 1 week would not be able to make a very educated assessment of the culture” Incidentally, he also had business relations with many Canadians over a period of several years which no doubt also influenced his opinion.>
Cheers,
Lewis
Since Hezbolah is a political party and Lebanon is a “democracy” they have the opportunity to remove Hezbolah on a regular basis. Wanna bet Hezbolah posts record gains in the next election?
“Moderate Muslim” is an oxymoron. Some are more extreme than others but I don’t think there is a group of Muslims that you could compare to what we think of as moderate Christians. A person that we would consider to be a moderate would be a heretic in the eyes of Islam. In some countries that can carry a death sentence … gee I wonder why there are so few moderates.
Immigration? Slam the doors. No more from Islamic countries that support or do not actively denounce terrorism. Fast track deportation for known terrorist sympathizers. It is high time that we acknowledged that these people pose a real threat to Canada’s security.
I do ,however, draw the line at declaring a western jihad against the Muslim world. I just want them to go away and practice their special brand of crazy in their own back yard. I don’t want to become them.
Charley
Just a comment about why moderate muslims have not stood up and countered the extremists in there religion.
I think this is due to the fact that Islam does not have a central authority like the Pope in Christianity.
This leaves Islam very vulnerable and easily hi-jacked.
Even the Christian faith has been hi-jacked by extreme elements. For example the Militia’s in the US, Rapture believing Chritians that have extreme views regarding Christians, Jews and Muslims.
These Christians are actually quite a threat because there “end of times” doctrine propels them to “support conflict.” This dove-tails into there belief system and dogma about a “series of events” that need to occur before the “Rapture” takes place.
Extreme Islam does the same. It feeds into there belief system.
They create scenerios that become self-fullfilling prophecies. They use this to go back to ordinary people and use scripture in a selective way to gain support.
That does not make these elements religous. They are terrorists with an agenda. The way to achieve there agenda is by using religion as a medium. This happens in Christianity and Islam.
Kevin,
You make reference to Christian extremist groups in the US. Please provide more examples… What are the names of these groups? When is the last time these groups have engaged in terrorist acts? Have some of these extremist Christian groups flown planes into buildings filled with people?
Wesley, Wasn’t the Oklahoma City bombing done by Christian extremists as they were mad about the whole Waco Texas incident?
Wesley:
The groups exist, you know who they are, but they always remain small and lunatic fringe because our culture doesn’t support them. I hate to play the cultural superiority game but Islamic society seems to buy into this crazy shit more than we do. Maybe that’s because you’re considered to be educated in most of these places if the only book you’ve read is the Koran.
Marc,
I don’t know. That’s why I’m asking for some concrete examples with some links to facts to back it up. Can you think of any other examples?
It’s easy to play Kevin’s game and just kind of lump all the religious extremists in to one group and say they are bad. Sure. But let’s get some statistics here. Look at the various extremist groups for the various religions. How many are there for each religion? How many violent/terrorist acts have they committed in the last 10 years?
I’d love to see a nice summary of the stats — then we can make some interesting and more detailed conclusions as opposed to the generalizations that Kevin makes. Of course making those statements will be controversial and definately not ‘politically correct’ — but let the numbers speak for themselves. Just like crime statistics. If certain groups are committing more crimes than others, time to start keeping a closer watch on that group. Some call it profiling.. I call it reducing the probability of crime.
I think that Islam has not undergone the same changes that Christianity has in the Last 500 years. The one thing that has actually created the change in Christianity has been democracy and the secular state. This has actually been a benefit to religion as practiced in the Western Democracies. Middle Eastern countries have never had a secular democracy, with the exception of Turkey.
Wesley: These groups are all over the USA, they provided gala performances in Waco and Oklahoma City. I will admit they are a bit off the map these days because of Global Terrorism. But prior to Sept 11 they where out in Force .. I am thinking that 2 things are happening with them. Either they have gone underground and are waiting for a vulnerable US Government and Army or they have found a place at the table regarding there anti-Islamic stance. These groups ultimate plan has always been to overthrow the US Government and “Christianize” the US.
That is code for … No People of colour, No Gay people, No women’s rights, no democracy, generally similiar to what the Middle East governments are providing there populations at present.
Kevin said: “Even the Christian faith has been hi-jacked by extreme elements.”
“These Christians are actually quite a threat ….They create scenerios that become self-fullfilling prophecies.”
Goodness, Christians have been the brunt of jokes, or smacked down for years, for bringing up anything scriptural in this country.
Suddenly the rest of us are expected to believe that they have some influence, to the degree you have claimed!
How, exactly, are some Christians now a threat?
Perhaps any such accusations, without proof, need to be toned down.
Garth and Gang.
After Qana – do you still whole-heartedly support Israel?
While Jews may throw nice Canadian rallies here in Canada – the Israelis are brutally killing innocent people in Lebanon.
Kevin,
Still vague generalizations on your part:
“These groups are all over the USA, they provided gala performances in Waco and Oklahoma City”
Which groups? I ask again — when it the last time any of these groups have committed terrorist acts? Where is their manifesto? Where do they state no gays, no coloured folks, etc. as you state? While groups such as Hamas, hezzbolah, and al-queda are very clear as to their end goals and their stance — I do not even know the names of the groups you are referring to, nor I do I know their goals and stance.
Please — do you care to enlighten us all on this front? Or will you continue to make vague generalizations?
Thanks
Zeljko,
And hezzbolah continues to fire rockets on Israel and hide amongst Labenese civilians. So what’s your point?
It is Hezbollah that are killing the innocent Lebanese by hiding amongst them KNOWING full well what will happen to them (even forcing them to stay after they have been warned by Isreal to leave the area). It is Heabollah that goes against the Geneva Convention here and is guilty of war crimes, Isreal is perfectly within her right (according to the Geneva Convention) to shoot back at areas where rocket attacks are coming from.
Please, we must get Hezbollah to stop!!! They are killing hundreds of innocent civilians!! They are TERRORISTS with no regard for human life (even their own)!!
Zeljko, by supporting the terrorists you are helping them to kill more innocent people, do you realize that??!!
WC
These groups do not have any widespread support in society, but I would argue that is also true within Islam.
Take a look at what is happening in the Muslim World. You have weak non-democratic governments that are unable and unwilling to support and protect there own populations. When the only choice presented is Hizzbollah or Hammas then it is clear what people will support in the heat of the moment.
In contrast Western governments are democratic and able to protect and support there populations.
There is no interest to support fringe groups for that reason.
How would you respond to a fringe group in Canada if our government was more like Middle East Governments! If there was no democracy, the government structure was weak and ineffective? I know that many of us would also look to fringe groups, especially if they where the only ones that seemed capable of support and protection.
Our assessment of the situation in the Middle East has been weak at best! This has been our downfall.
I am also surprised at the way Israel has responded to Hizzbollah. I thought they would use methods that would be effective against a guerilla army.
Instead the result has been that Israel has been bogged down in there advance into Lebanon and they have been unable to stop the rockets into Northern Israel. Esentially they planned on a full scale invasion and occupation of the South of Lebanon to create a protective buffer and they failed. That is why they have started to talk about a UN occupation force after the fighting. Right now Israel needs to save face and not look defeated. This is a very bad thing because it will embolden Hizzbollah and encourage them to continue as a Guerilla army rather than a political force.
Wesley
Did you take a look at some of the groups on the Internet, many of them have websites. In addition there are a number of articles that have been written about these groups that are also published on the web. The entire Militia movement has been featured on
W-5 in the past as well as other news media.
Me thinks you play a bit dumb on this one Wesley, why is that?
Charley:
Let’s get them BOTH to stop.
Kev,
It’s simple man.. I’m just asking for some links or names.. Point me in the right direction! It was a simple request.. We know the names of the mainstream islamic terror groups because we hear about them in the media a lot.. The other christian terror groups you are referring to, we do not hear about often in the media.. I’m just asking for some help in understanding the point you are trying to make.. So again:
1. What are the names of terrorist christian groups you are referring to?
2. Please provide links to their websites, if available.
My request was really that simple. Just looking for some backing to the generalizations you make — which I have not seen to date.
ALW, how do you get BOTH to stop if one side (Hezbollah) refuses? Isreal has agreed to stop for 48 hours now to try and properly investigate the latest bombing BESIDE a 4-story building that killed many civilians and to try and clear out any remaining civilians. How much to you want to bet that Hez rocket attacks will continue and very few cilivians will be cleared out?? As Alex Cross mentioned in a previous post, they are ALL civilians until they strap on the belts or load up the rockets!
Kevin, I believe Isreal was wrong to cede to global pressure and not follow with its intentions of going in with a ground war to finally get rid of Hezbollah but I would hardly say that they have “failed”. I believe they are agreeing to the international force for the express purpose of showing the world that Hezbollah et al will attack WHOEVER goes in and this might start to change some of the ridiculous opinions that Isreal are the aggressor and not the victim!
If it’s the big bad Isreal & U.S. that are to blame for all of this, then how do you account for Darfur, Somalia, Indonesia, Pakistan, Phillipines, Beslan, etc, etc,
What has to be stopped is the spread of Islamic facism!! How? The ONLY way possible – by spreading democracy in its place (I know, not an easy task!!).
Kevin…you are attempting to divert.
Your claim was:
“Even the Christian faith has been hi-jacked by extreme elements. For example the Militia’s in the US, Rapture believing Chritians that have extreme views regarding Christians, Jews and Muslims.
These Christians are actually quite a threat because there “end of times†doctrine propels them to “support conflict.â€
The tone of that assertion is quite strident, and would benefit from accompanying proof.
Or a token admission that it got ahead of you, and we can leave it at that….
Wesley
Since you are having a problem searching the internet you might try this: Yahoo search “Christian Militia’s”
First hit I got was American Rebel Militia’s … Take a look.
Wesley you are the only person that has commented on this issue that say’s they have no kowledge of Christian Militia’s. You know what I am talking about … Pleading ignorance is hardly your M.O!!!!
Charley
It is my belief that Israel made a tactical error in there approach to dealing with Hizzbollah. Israel simply thought they could occupy South Lebanon and create a buffer, that does not seem to be working. In the end Hizzbollah will claim victory and refuse to lay down there arms. An occupation force will probably go in and Hizzbollah will find another way to terrorize Israel.
I wonder what would happen if Israel decided to enrich the palestinian population (Not the palestinian authority) with good things. Like homes and Infastructure, health care and seed money for business. Perhaps worked to strengthen there institutions. I wonder how long the population would support Hammas and Hizzbollah. This is the “carrot” approach! What if Israel offered to pay for the restoration of the Lebanese infastructure.
What would happen if Israeli companies offered to invest in Lebanon, think of the spin-off’s in job’s, profit’s and even good relations. Would the average Lebanese side with Hizzbollah and war or with Israel and peace and prosperity.
WC
Check out the 700 Club, 100 Huntly St when they talk about prophecy. These guys are all into this stuff. There are tons of books on the subject. The internet is full of it. Below is a website explaining the Rapture.
http://askelm.com/doctrine/d760201.htm
But something tells me you know what I am speaking about. I am not intersted in debating the concept …it is out there and believed by many BA Christians. It does have merit in Politics because many in the current US Administration believe in it and many in the current Canadian government also believe it. This has been discussed in the media in the USA and Canada.
Charley:
I wish I knew how to make them both stop. I don’t.
This isn’t so much a war as a feud that looks back on generations of pain, betrayal and bloodshed … on both sides. The current exchange of ordinance is only serving to add more fuel to the fire.
When there finally is a ceasefire both sides will be even more determined and full of rage and frustration than they were three weeks ago. That’s just what Hezbollah wants.
Ultimately Israel’s response, whether you feel it’s measured or not, will have contributed to the problem, not the solution. Israel’s response to the kidnapping of the two soldiers was emotional. It was the straw that broke the camel’s back. They lashed out and by doing so they lost any moral high ground that they may have gained by their recent concessions.
I guess it will stop when both sides genuinely want it to stop.
Charley:
Again with the democracy angle.
Democracy just means the will of the people will prevail. When the people are a mob that is superstitious, uneducated, and backward looking the policies of the government will reflect just that.
Even the imposed, so-called democratic assembly in Iraq is refusing to denounce Hezbollah. Hamas was democratically elected. Lebanon is a democracy.
Democracy evolves naturally when you have an educated, relatively enlightened populace who desire it. Imposed democracy not only doesn’t work, it’s a contradiction in terms.
Kevin, my point is that you accused specific people, certain Christians in our country, of being a threat to the rest of us.
And now have included one specific tv show as your proof.
You cannot possibly be saying folks who watch that show are a threat to the rest of us, can you?
Should I be tuning in to it to see what I have missed, and why you have come to that conclusion?
Most people know about the Rapture debate; who could miss it these days.
Just as most now know about suicide bombers and jihads, and sleeper cells.
This is what people do now, get educated about the threats in our lives.
I think you got out ahead of yourself; we all do ocassionally.
A lot of decent folks were lumped into your net.
It bothers me whenever regular folks who live, work, and enjoy our Canadian life are made to look like the enemy.
Any real debate is then already, off the rails.
And others are not well served, reading here.
Kevin says:
“Wesley you are the only person that has commented on this issue that say’s they have no kowledge of Christian Militia’s. You know what I am talking about … Pleading ignorance is hardly your M.O!!!! ”
I’m not sure if you are being sarcastic or if you are accusing me of being part of a militia. Could you clarify?
I thought I was being abundantly clear on my request for information. I’ll follow up on the link you have provided to see if I can learn anything interesting.
If the issue is as dire as you make it out to be, I’m sure there will be plenty more W5 and CBC specials on it to come, as well as more media coverage.
P.S. — Any luck digging up more examples or a list of christian terrorist attacks?
Thanks for all your help Kev!
WC
Thank you for your comments they are well taken. The email address that I provided was only one among many. The TV show was one among a few that I saw. My point is not to Lump people together at all, but to show the similarities that Islam and Christianity have regarding extreme beliefs.
We are all very willing to point out extreme Islam but not really in tune with what extreme Christianity has done and can do.
I don’t think there is any current comparison between extreme Islam and extreme Christianity…not in today’s world. There was a time, many, many moons ago when horrible things were carried out in the name of Christianity (and other regligions) on a large scale but not in hundreds of years. Now it is the Islamic extremists that are conducting their “crusades” for they have not progressed along with the rest of the world.
ALW, you say imposed democracy doesn’t work – where hasn’t it worked?
Democracies take years and years to build, we’ve given Iraq all of 5 so far, and they are coming along quite well(despite what we hear on the MSM) but many are not helping the situation when they insist we give up before we even finish trying!
Why would we not want to give the choice of democracy to those who NEVER had a choice before. Why would we not help these countries achieve freedom? Is it because they are Arabs? Are we all so racist that we refuse to help the oppressed people in these countries?
Who’s against democracy in Iraq & Lebanon? Syria, Iran, countries where they don’t want their people to see this freedom and understand their people have a choice, that they too can have freedom if they choose to.
I think this is why the whole war has vamped up the rhetoric lately because the Islamic extremists CAN’T allow for more spread of democracy. If Iraq becomes successful, maybe followed by Lebanon and then Afghanistan….just imagine how awful that would be for these idiot extremists (and how wonderful it would be for the rest of the world!!).
Lebanon doesn’t really have a democracy as they are largely controlled by Hezbollah and Syria/Iran and armed to the teeth, what kind of democracy is that??!
Palestinians are run by (and have been run by) terrorists and do nothing to actually help their people, hardly democratic!
Charlie. Where has it worked? Give me an example of one imposed democractic government that can stand on its own feet without being protected from its own citizens by a western army of occupation.
“Lebanon doesn’t really have a democracy as they are largely controlled by Hezbollah and Syria/Iran and armed to the teeth, what kind of democracy is that??!”
It’s the kind of democracy that the citizens elected. A democratic government merely reflects the will of the people, unless it’s imposed by force of arms under foreign occupation. Then it reflects the will of the occupier. Of course that’s not really democracy. It’s more like colonization. Is that really what you are advocating?
No, I am certainly not advocating colonization.
I guess what I am trying to get at is “democracy by example”. When surrounding countries see for themselves “up close and personal” all of the wonderful things that come about with democracy (employment, schools, human rights, etc) the people within these countries then WANT IT and DEMAND it and will bring about changes to allow for it. The people themselves, impose democracy, which is “forced”, but not by outsiders (such as how France, Britian, and the US democracies came about – the people wanting it and overthrowing the leadership of the time – kings whatever..).
In order for the people to actually want it, they have to have some real understanding of what “it” is and, unless they can experience it firsthand, they won’t quite ever know what they are missing. If they see it popping up all around them, especially in Arab lands, how can they NOT want it!
That’s why I believe that the Iraq situation will likely work out better than Afghanistan because the Iraqis themselves REALLY WANT democracy and they are a very modern, progressive society. Unfortunately, they are being continually hindered and undermined in their quest for democracy by the Islamic facsists who send in their insurgents from Iran, Syria, etc.. to purposely try and create civil strife. Regardless of this, however, Iraq is moving closer and closer to its goal and may very well be a viable democracy in 5 years from now.
I believe even the Iranian people also want democracy because they, too, are modern and progessive. I read lots of Iranian blogs and I am lead to believe that the people there are NOT in agreement with the Mullahs and their extreme Islamic views and would also welcome democracy (they are, it seems, quite “westernized”).
Afghanistan is very different in that it is extemely tribal and will take a very, very long time before the people “up and demand” democracy…we’ll be there for a long while I think.
The current crisis with Isreal/Lebanon is simply Hezbollah finally having to admit that what it really wants is the NON-EXISTANCE of Isreal. Hezbollah’s attack has finally destroyed the land-for-peace formula, upon which all past Roadmaps for peace were founded. Israel has no concession that it can make to Hezbollah to end the fighting, and Hezbollah cannot give Israel what it must ultimately have — acceptance of its existence and the recognition of specific borders — without destroying its own legitimacy. Tough situation!!
Charley:
Democracy by example I can buy into. Unfortunately the examples up to this point haven’t exactly been roaring successes.
Of course Iran is modern and progressive. Iran is the seat of the old Persian Empire. It is not an Arab country and if there was ever hope for a reformation of Islam it was probably going to come out of Iran.
If you take a look at the history of Iran you will find that it was the first country in the region to begin a move toward democracy in the early fifties. They sent the Shah into exile (didn’t behead him, just sent him elsewhere.)
It didn’t last long. The US and Britain arranged for the removal of the new Prime Minister and returned the Shah to power within a matter of months. It seems the new democracy had the silly idea that they should have control of their own petroleum resources. So much for that attempt at democracy.
That set the stage for the ascendance of the Ayatollahs and the current Islamic regime. A tragic lost opportunity for a progressive democracy in the Middle East.
If there is still hope for Iran then there may be hope for the whole region.
The next best hope for an example of a progressive democracy is … Lebanon. We know how that’s working out.
It seems that if you try to establish a democracy in the middle east you get the shit kicked out of you. I can understand why the neighbours have a jaundiced view of democracy.
Great “conversation” ALW, I appreciate the discussion! Let’s hope that some of these democracies will finally work out since the alternative is too horrible to contemplate!!
I guess we better give up this thread and “move into the present”, I think we are probably the only ones still checking this date!!
Take care, chat with you again soon!!
Charley