(CTV News) A roadside bomb has killed six Canadian soldiers and an Afghan interpreter in the Panjwaii district of Afghanistan. Brig.-Gen. Tim Grant, commander of Task Force Afghanistan, confirmed the deaths during a news conference Wednesday in Kandahar.
He said the soldiers — who have not been identified pending notification of next of kin — were travelling in an RG-31 Nyala armoured vehicle with the interpreter when they were struck by an improvised explosive device. All the vehicle’s occupants were killed.
“We’re greatly saddened by the loss of these great young Canadians, exceptional young men,” Grant said. The attack happened about 20 kilometres southwest of Kandahar while the soldiers returned to their forward operating base west of Kandahar city, after conducting a joint operation with the Afghan National Army.
Grant told reporters the RG-31 is considered one of the safest vehicles in the Canadian fleet, and was driving on a road that the military has used regularly over the past month.
With the most recent deaths, 66 Canadian military personnel and one diplomat have now been killed in Afghanistan.
74 comments ↓
SAD INDEED
I am starting to hate seeing these kind of headlines of brave men losing their lives everyday in Afghanistan while Canada instead of beefing up the troops and giving them what they need, finds no problem handing over 30 million dollars to help construct the Afghany Legal and Police system with training. AFGHANISTAN is a HEROIN DISTRIBUTION CENTRE for the world. This activity continues unabated every day and the training of Judges and lawyers with our money in my opinion is not the answer in a corrupt society that it is.
My sadness deepens .
Here, where we stood together, we three men,
Before the war had swept us to the East
Three thousand miles away, I stand again
And hear the bells, and breathe, and go to feast.
We trod the same path, to the selfsame place,
Yet here I stand, having beheld their graves,
Skyros whose shadows the great seas erase,
And Seddul Bahr that ever more blood craves.
So, since we communed here, our bones have been
Nearer, perhaps, than they again will be,
Earth and the worldwide battle lie between,
Death lies between, and friend-destroying sea.
Yet here, a year ago, we talked and stood
As I stnad now, with pulses beating blood.
I saw her like a shadow on the sky
In the last light, a blur upon the sea,
Then the gale’s darkness put the shadow by,
But from one grave that island talked to me;
And, in the midnight, in the breaking storm,
I saw its blackness and a blinking light,
And thought, “So death obscures your gentle form,
So memory strives to make the darkness bright;
And, in that heap of rocks, your body lies,
Part of the island till the planet ends,
At least, for now, I know my good friend, who has been there for one tour, is not ONE OF THEM!
How truly sad for their families and friends.
As a retired vet of over 30 years my heart bleeds for the family and friends of these brave soldiers. For I have returned home with fallin mates to face their family. It is never easy.
On the outside my anger grows as PMSH arrives here in NS knowing he cares less each day about our vets and retired service people or the Navy as he makes deep cuts in operating budgets for training only to make futue contract promises for votes. PMSH has cut medical benifits and denied claims left and right behind the sceens while preaching the praises of defense building. AND to think 39% of voters believe him….good news 61% of the voters do have open minds.
Why do we give the damn Quebec nation billions of dollars to grab votes for an immoral damn PM when this money could be used usefully to help our troops, it just goes to show that we don’t have a PM who gives a damn about nobody but his own rightous ass.
Thank you to the women and men over there in Afghanistan who are fighting so hard to reclaim those people from the dark ages and the Taleban.
It’s going to be a bad day at the base.
It’s going to be a bad day at the base.
By LoH_Numa on 07.04.07 3:05 pm
IMHO it is a sad,sad day for all Canadians.
Not just for those directly involved .
We have money for politicians to galavant around the world for photo-ops, new tanks, Quebec, but here is how the current goobernment of Canada treats our veterans.
$4.6B disabled vets award overturned
Here is the goobernment’s logic (read that as a pissant excuse to get out of their obligation)
The federal government argued that most of the money wouldn’t have gone former soldiers, many of whom have died, but would have ended up instead in the pockets of thousands of distant relatives and perhaps even creditors.
“If the good Lord doesn’t save soldiers, all soldiers, just because they are soldiers, there is no point in anyone trying.”
- Georges Bernanos, “Diary of a Country Priest.” (1936)
Ken,
Martin and Chretien are not in power now. Pay attention please.
Ken,
Martin and Chretien are not in power now. Pay attention please.
By Miltonman on 07.04.07 3:32 pm
Says the one with his head down on the desk snoring loudly .
Ken,
Martin and Chretien are not in power now. Pay attention please.
By Miltonman on 07.04.07 3:32 pm
… and you can tell the difference?
Err MintonMan,
I think Ken was referfing to Harper’s huge vote buying cash-o-poluza spending spread in Quebec last spring,… remember? Of course that really didn’t work so well did it.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, not passivity.
The Neville Chamberelain’s and Jack Layton’s of this world do not begin to understand the tactics of an enemy that is totally irrational, and has a mindset for eternal jihad until a particular dictatorial and tyranical ideology rules the world.
It is time that Canadians started to understand that as well as our brave soldiers to whom we owe an eternal debt of gratitude.
And let us also thank Paul Martin for getting us into Afghanistan on this dangerous but necessary mission in the defence of freedom against fascism.
The prophets of “peace at any price” would never have stood up to the Nazis or the the Fascists of the Second World War. It was people with a different mindset who paid for our freedoms dearly.
Today the Taliban are the Fascists of our day, and yet we seemed to have learned nothing from history.
For what it is worth, the thinking that fascists in any generation can be appeased, negotiated with, or that we can diplomatically enter into a gentleman’s agreement with them is very wrong-headed.
Equally wrong-headed is the notion that this war on terror is a distant war that will never affect us directly.
Witness the security scare that is going on in Great Britain and in Scotland right now. In Canada, we are ill prepared for such an attack as these civilized countries are now facing, and do we now stick our head in the sands and pretend it will never happen here.
I predict that people like Jack Layton will not go down in history as great.
Anyone who uses this sad news regarding our heros for political gain, is a sorry human being indeed.
How very sad. Just how many deaths is enough? When will we realize that we can’t give anyone else their freedom. They have to fight for it themselves!
Ken,
The response from the retard should just be ignored. He doesn;t have that information in his Death Star reference regarding their Fearless Leader’s little cash handout.
He is, as always off topic, and of planet.
We’re greatly saddened by the loss of these great young Canadians, exceptional young men.So were the words of Brig General Grant.The other part of his statement says they(the taliban)are also killing men women and children.
What he didn’t say is so are Nato troops.Of course when NATO does it it’s collateral damage.With the other bunch it’s murder.Hard for NATO to gain support over there when the citizens are being blown up by Nato bombs.
And then we see on Arthur Kents..skyreporter .com that one of the most feared drug lords is an member of Karzai,s government.The heroin trade has shot up to $6 billion a yr from millions a year a few yrs. ago.And the Can. Gov. just sent another $30 million to Karzai’s regime to help improve the justice situation,while at the same time his Attorney General Sabat is sending his thugs to beat up reporters at the local media stations there.
And NATO trops are going to win with this situation happening.I think not.
The good news this morning was Keith Olbermann’s report on MSNBC last evening attacking Bush and Cheney.Boy he was fired up.
Then this report of 6 more Canadian troops dead in Afghanistan.How much longer?
Some see it as “taking a vital role on the world stage”. I see it as a Tragedy.
An unending spiral of violence pulling our souls deeper into hell.
______________________________________
I grieve
for our sons and daughters,
killed
in a foreign country,
for a foreign cause.
She remembered
her son,
his smile,
and said it was
senseless.
As it ever was.
Her pain
flowed from the TV
to my eyes.
Every death
is used for propoganda
for the “mission”
for public consumption
during the Dinner News.
Beware of those that speak of sacrifice, for they aim to feast.
They are our flesh.
Flags will no longer fly
at half mast
for this is a war.
or is it?
What exactly is it?
Why are we there?
They are our blood.
If the camera was looking in my eye,
As I reflected on the death of my son,
I could not make heroic speeches.
In the refection of my tears,
they would only see bloody spittle
the grinding of my shattered teeth fragments.
They were children not too long ago.
Support our troops,
bring them home.
Amen.
The Americans could have cleaned up the mess in Afghanistan many times over if they had stayed out of Iraq and put into Afghanistan a fraction of the resources they have squandered in Iraq. But it’s not about helping Afghanistan; the oil is in Iraq. By sending our Canadian troops to die in Afghanistan, we are reducing the military work load for the US so that they can do more surging in Iraq. In this manner Canadian involvement in Afghanistan supports US military aggression.
PMSH has cut medical benifits and denied claims left and right
By David Bakody on 07.04.07 2:49 pm
Ummm. Heard nothing in the news at all about this. Do you have an url? Personally I don’t believe this.
L
Bill Muskoka, if PMSH keeps backtracking on the Afghan mission (now saying that he will not extend the mission without a full debate in the HofC, and without the support of a majority of the members), and if you keep backtracking on earlier statements, I can see the day coming when the two of you will meet in the happy middle! O happy day!
The more we all backtrack, the closer we get to one another! Let sweet reason prevail as we turn from extremism and intemperance.
Miltonman,
In defence of Ken, maybe you should pay attention to articles such as these:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/03/19/budget-main.html
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/quebecvotes2007/story/2007/03/20/qc-moretaxcuts20070320.html
Funny how, the day after the Harper government announces $698 million for Quebec, les Québécois are getting a $700 million dollar tax cut.
No, of course not, that COULDN’T be Harper (and Charest) trying to buy Quebecker’s votes with the rest of the country’s money. Only the Liberals ever did that…
They have to fight for it themselves!
By mcg on 07.04.07 4:25 pm
Comments like this sicken me. Did we tell that to the Europeans? How selfish and disrespectful can one get? Actually most of the comments here make me want to hurl. Especially the ignorant ones who are wasting no time in using these deaths as another way to bash Mr. Harper. It is not easy for a leader to have men killed or harmed. It wasn’t easy for Mr. Chretien or Mr. Martin either. How sad that you people would make such outlandish comments today.
Leasa
“And let us also thank Paul Martin for getting us into Afghanistan on this dangerous but necessary mission in the defence of freedom against fascism.”
Izzy,
It was actually Jean Chretien who committed Canadian forces to Afghanistan.
It is time that Canadians started to understand that as well as our brave soldiers to whom we owe an eternal debt of gratitude. – Izzy
You got that right!
Today the Taliban are the Fascists of our day, and yet we seemed to have learned nothing from history. – Izzy
You’ve got this right, too, but not in the way the rest of blog suggests.
The part of history you are forgetting is the Afghan occupation by the Russians. How did the Russians, who were asked in by the lawful government of the day, go after the Talibhan?
Exactly the same way the US. and Canadians are doing now. Search and distroy. Did it get them anywhere? Absolutely not.
Same scenario, different troops, same tactics and no doubt, same result.
While I do not agree with Mr. Layton that we should be pulling our troops out now, NATO must re-evaluate its strategy. The only way to beat the Talibhan is for the Afghanis to beat them. While we’re bombing “suspected” Talibhan and killing innocent people, that is not going to happen. The people outside of the urban areas will see the Talibhan as the “good guys” fighting against the occupiers that indiscriminately bomb and kill their kinsfolk.
Its time for PMSH to tell NATO they had better find replacements after 2009, its time for PMSH to tell George W. that the strategy of bombing suspected Talibhan isn’t going to work and its time for PMSH to tell NATO to concentrate on reconstruction.
Sure the Talibhan will try to do their best to prevent it, but the people of Afghanistan will turn against the Talibhan, rather than supporting them.
Garth I am dissapointed that you allow so many comments that comment on Bush, Harper, Dion Martin and Cretien on this posting. Irrespective of if you believe in this mission – you should NEVER make any political comments when deaths like these are involved.
For heavans sake people – have some respect for the families and the fallen.
David
This mission has cost the lives of 66 brave Canadians and consumed billions. It is a worthy topic of discussion, and all voices need to be heard. We all support our troops. We also need to be bedrock certain we are on the correct path. — Garth
Mr. Turner,
Sadly you’re partially responsible for this loss:
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:XS2n7R04fFwJ:www.garth.ca/weblog/2006/05/17/afghanistan/+garth+Solitario+afghanistan&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca
I know you’re an honest man and your actions regarding the income trusts
proved you’re capable of admitting when you’re wrong and working hard to correct past mistakes.
I expect the same regarding our involvement in Afghanistan. Please start working to get us out of there immediately.
I would not insist on the fact this mission is a lost cause. It has always been.
But, if we pull out now, it may not be too late to avoid a devastating revenge attack here in Canada.
And Harper won’t be the one to suffer- he’s well protected.
WE are going to pay the price again- the same ones shafted in the trusts scandal!
Same as one year ago, mark my words…
Yes, I voted to extend the Afghan mission to February, 2009 in the House of Commons last May. At that time there was no apparent logic in pulling our troops out and creating the right conditions for chaos in that part of the country, negating progress made to that date. I would vote the same way today, so there is clarity for the troops who are fighting diligently to accomplish their goals. By the same token, the Harper Government must give us all some clarity on the extent and depth of this mission, so our NATO partners can pick up and shoulder their share of the combat burden. I do not believe an immediate pullout of our troops is any reasonable solution. Nor do I support the giving of a blank cheque to Mr. Harper. — Garth
Keep in mind that it was the Chretien Liberals who committed to the mission in Afghanistan. Now, it appears, the spin is that it was a different mission.
A government really should get it right on this sort of thing, assuming it really does put a high value on the lives of the youn Canadians it sends off into danger. On a related note the Chretienites took an axe to the military budget in the early nineties; apparently he loves using them just not paying for it.
Anothersad day for Canada.Six more lives snuffed out for what purpose?Vets lose out on$4.5billion in Ontario Supreme Court.On the one hand politicians use our soldiers as cannon fodder to please Bush and on the other they deny those who survive that hell benefits.Bring the troops home.WE’re defending a decrepid Afghan government and a people who do not want or respect our norms and beliefs.Enough lives and money have been spent for no apparent improvement in the Afghan lifestyle.
Anyone who uses this sad news regarding our heros for political gain, is a sorry human being indeed.
By FOREMAN on 07.04.07 4:15 pm
Thought you’d gotten the old heave’ho Foreman .
Or is this “Death Star” Foreman V2 .
So stupid can’t even make up new names .
Apparently, 200,000 troops are needed to succeed – NATO can’t come near that. Also, Leasa – Europe was under a dictator yes, but the people themselves were of a different mindset than the Middle East. Their leaders weren’t clerics and they had the same values with respect to families, family values, and separation of church and state.
I don’t think you can compare the two at all.
My heart goes out to the families of these brave soldiers.
One of my son’s boyhood friends is in Afghanistan and I hope he is not one of the six who died today. There is no purpose in these deaths.
This mission has cost the lives of 66 brave Canadians and consumed billions. It is a worthy topic of discussion, and all voices need to be heard. We all support our troops. We also need to be bedrock certain we are on the correct path. — Garth
By David on 07.04.07 4:54 pm
When the Dutch commander comes begging us to let our troops remain,in Afghanistan, while their troops lolly gag around the Fort and will not take on dangerous missions I get pissed .
How ’bout they do some of the dyin’ instead of putting Canadian troops in harms way daily .
Van Joop or whatever his name is has a lot of nerve .
And what of all the rest of the UN who have troops that are not deployed to Afghanistan ?
Where is their contribution ?
What is their contribution ?
By Izzy on 07.04.07 4:41 pm
Grasp Then and NOW Izzy? Different days, different scenarios, different responses. yesterday was THEN, today is NOW!
No backtracking present.
“The response from the retard should just be ignored.” –Bill Muksoka.
Bill, I am disappointed in seeing you return to intemperate comments once again.
Yet I am sure that when I remind you of comments like this 4 months down the road, you will quickly backtrack on your harsh rhetoric and intemperate outbursts and name-calling.
You can let off a lot of steam, but my only encouragement is that you can cool off very quickly, and then treat it like it never happend, or else just shrug your shoulders and say, “That was another day.”
Come on, Bill, you can do better.
I heard an excellent comment today..The Afghans will let you into their country with no problem but they won’t let you out. The problems in Afghanistan have been going on for decades and probably will continue for more decades. They don’t have oil but they have opium which is fattening many wallets in the U.S.
The reason to be there is wrong! To continue will only result in more deaths.The government fear mongering “if we don’t stop them there then they will come here” is pure propaganda.
Canada should immediately encourage open dialogue with all parties. We couldn’t lead the way as we are part of the problem, but we could encourage neutral countries in the U.N. to take the role and we could support them. Why spend money on rebuilding until the war is over!
I’ll be back on the same topic one year from now.
Hundreds more canadian soldiers will be killed or maimed. Billions in taxpayers dollars wasted.
Canada will likely suffer one or more deadly attacks here at home-I pray I’am wrong.
Afghanistan will be the same as today, just with a higher opium harvest-don’t get fooled, what you name progress is propaganda.
But hey, if that sound more “reasonable†to you and you‘d still vote the same way today as one year ago,
maybe that’s unavoidable.
I’ll make another prediction- we’ll pull out sooner then February 2009. But it will cost us big in lives and money. Money- no problem, I’ve lost a bunch in income trusts, what’s a few hundreds more sent to the poppy fields. I just hope my children won’t get hurt in a revenge attack while we will be waiting for our troops pullout to become “reasonable†to you and Mr. Dion.
Grasp Then and NOW Izzy? Different days, different scenarios, different responses. yesterday was THEN, today is NOW!
No backtracking present.
By Bill-Muskoka on 07.04.07 5:37 pm
Hey,Bill you have your very own, external, voice of conscience . IZZY !
What I find incredibly disturbing about today’s tragic events is the domestic politics being played at home.
Now realizing the Environment card isn’t doing much good for Dion’s numbers in Quebec, he chooses to use the deaths of these fine men for political gain.
Sick politics from an ever increasingly slimey Liberal.
Dion is acting more and more like the old say anything, do anything chumps who ruined the Liberal name last time around.
I’ve often been in awe of the great commitment and sacrifice that Canadians willingly made in past wars.
Now, the message seems to be, keep shopping, live as normal, don’t sacrifice the peace-time economy in Canada.
If being in Afghanistan and defeating the Taliban is so important to Canada’s future well-being, why do we only have 2000 troops there, when we know that the Soviets couldn’t do the job with hundreds of thousands?
If we have a duty to do, we, as a society have to make sure it’s done right, with enough resources to ensure success.
Many people believe that they “support our troops” by wearing red clothing or putting a bumper sticker on the car. Our leaders do not encourage Canadians to make any real efforts to help, or promote conserving resources needed for the war effort, or even explain to us for what ultimate purpose our fellow Canadians are getting blown up over there.
If it were really about Canada’s security, we would do whatever it takes to ensure it. We haven’t done that, so I can only conclude that our government doesn’t feel that our role in Afghanistan is truly necessary. Could it be that we’re only there as a token gesture to make sure we appear to be supportive of our major ally? What a senseless waste of lives.
Some comments from another blogger:
“The Americans could have cleaned up the mess in Afghanistan many times over if they had stayed out of Iraq and put into Afghanistan a fraction of the resources they have squandered in Iraq. But it’s not about helping Afghanistan; the oil is in Iraq. By sending our Canadian troops to die in Afghanistan, we are reducing the military work load for the US so that they can do more surging in Iraq. In this manner Canadian involvement in Afghanistan supports US military aggression.
By Natural on 07.04.07 4:36 pm”
For those of you who post/review this blog regularly, you will note that I have not been posting recently. I choose not to get into the name calling/cat calling, etc that far too often passes for discourse on this blog. Unfortunate in my opinion.
But reading comments like the one that I’ve included cause me no option but to reappear.
Natural, it is NOT the number of soldiers/resources that would possibly win in any sense of the word in this war. Don’t believe me, just ask the Russians. Take history for crying out loud.
Regarding these 6 dead soldiers, note that they were returning from operations in support of Afghanistan soldiers. The ultimate goal is to train, and equip a national military force that will be available to the national government to deal with its own issues. That is and has been happening for well over a year now. Afghanistan soldiers are probably the bravest soldiers that there are given that they are taking on a determined enemy with very poor equipment and little training. But each day they improve their tactics and become better. That is the exit strategy. Once the Afghanistan government has a properly functionning military, with the aid of the resources of modern nations like ours (and the US and the Brits, etc), then we (NATO) will be able to commence our exit.
And a reminder. And as heartless as it sounds, casualties are as much a part of war, as summer means an exodus to cottage country in Ontario. It is expected and that is understood by every soldier who ‘volunteers’ to be part of operations by going to Afghanistan. And while as civilians, the vast majority of the people who post here can’t begin to understand or comprehend the ‘why’ as to why a soldier would take on this responsibility, suffice it to say that in almost every case, those soldiers believe and are making a real difference in the world. Always without fanfare or recognition, but a difference nonetheless. And in the most important ways. That being that everyday, these soldiers look into the appreciative faces (mainly) of Afghanistan people who want to raise their families and provide a future to their children. And even more importantly is looking into the faces of those children who know one thing. These guys in uniform are there to help. By building a school, by providing a medical facilty, by digging a well, or just by passing out a pencil.
That ladies and gentlemen is why our soldiers CHOOSE to volunteer and part of this, regardless of the risk.
I can only hope that each and everyone of you can have a small grasp of the why. And for those reasons, I would suggest that you provide your support to the mission (and no this is not about support our soldiers).
Ed the Hun
By Hunter Mars on 07.04.07 6:25 pm
Whew, I am sure glad to know that because I thought there was a fly buzzing around my head that got caught in some wacko scientist’s experiment with this little tiny voice! Thanks Buddy.
By Ed the Hun on 07.04.07 7:44 pm
Nicely stated. I definitely support our troops, all the troops. I think the mission has value…BUT…there is not a precise goal stated publically. That worries me as a Viet Nam Veteran.
Your statement regarding history is Spot ON!
I spent six months emailing my good friend in Kandahar, and believe me, I have no real desire to repeat that experience. It was like living on a bubble. Every day hoping nothing hurt him, and hence his wife, two sons, and family.
I have done the same thing with my son, who serves in the USAF, and he has been to the Persian Gulf 8 times.
The one thing that has bothered me the most I think is the very term NATO! Never in my wildest dreams would I have ever envisioned NATO operating in the Middle East. The UN yes, but never NATO! Interestingly, NATO is illustrated as OTAN there. That easily translates to ‘Overthrow The Arab Nations.’
That has bugged me from the gitgo! I get this uneasy feeling that someone has bent the rules and the NATO agreement way over, and we are getting it shoved up ours in the process.
NATO was formed to repel a Soviet invasion of Europe of North Atlantic members. That was its entire reason for being. Never the Middle East. Just as NORAD was intended to protect the North American continent against a Soviet ICBM or bomber attack. Specific missions with specific limitations.
Why, as a point, does not the Organization of American States (OAS) have troops going there as well? Where are the Mexican and Central American, South American troops?
I think we have lawyers?
Ed: They are not “volunteers”. They get paid to work at their chosen profession.
And until the corrupt Afghan government is overhauled there will be no self-sufficiency in Afghanistan for the corrupt leaders will only take foreign funds and continue to siphon them into their own coffers and away from the Afghan population.
Who is accounting for all our $$$$$ already “invested” in the government of Afghanistan.?
Until a truly reformed Afghan government is in place we are just playing at “war” and deceiving ourselves into believing our efforts are having any long-range effect.
Leasa
Sorry that my comments sickened you. Most sources say that there have been over 4000 civilian deaths. Coalition military fatalities are now 623. That is what sickens me!!!!!
Garth wrote,
This mission – is a worthy topic of discussion, and all voices need to be heard.
Come on Garth, your voice is not heard. You just repeat what Dion says. I see you have learned to tow the party line.
Good Garth.
Canada’s present mission runs out in 2009 so just before PMSH and Co hold there little dog and pony show in the H of C a Canadain General is put in charge of NATO in Afghanistan, hmmm now that will be interesting no?
For Anger Canadain, read your newspapers, remember the lady who went to Ottawa with CTV in tow. Hell our Canadain War Brides and their children are not even classed as Canadain citizens and have to jump through hoops to get a passport and OAS. PMSH was drilled in H of C and scoffed at it. Support the troops, perhaps as long as they have a rife in hand eh. No Accountabilty No Standing up for Canada but lots of time for Quebec, lucky them, all this from a Reformer who once marked X’s through canidates faces in an general election, and you need a url?
By Hunter Mars on 07.04.07 6:25 pm
Whew, I am sure glad to know that because I thought there was a fly buzzing around my head that got caught in some wacko scientist’s experiment with this little tiny voice! Thanks Buddy.
By Bill-Muskoka on 07.04.07 8:02 pm
Welcome .
This combat mission in Afganistan was ill-founded from the start. One only has to look at history to understand that the Afgans have never been conquered and completely controlled by an outside power in their history. Unfortunately we have many courageous Canadian solders dying in a war that history proves we will simply never win. It is a sad day, and I fear, with many more to come.
Unfortunately we have many courageous Canadian solders dying in a war that history proves we will simply never win. It is a sad day, and I fear, with many more to come.
By Tom on 07.04.07 10:02 pm
‘This will not be another Viet Nam’ George W. Bush (who never served in ‘Nam) speaking to promote the war in Iraq.
Then came Afghanistan, in which the Soviets lost and suffered massive casualties and embarassment. But have they learned? Will they learn? Can they learn? NO!
No one can win a civil war for another. We can train, and empower, but the moment we engage, We are the enemy that all sides focus on. Sad as it is, it is reality.
There are no sure or fast solutions to such conflicts. No amount of military power can accomplish the proposed goal…PEACE! Only sane human beings sitting down together and negotiating a common position can end such debacles.
That is history!
Jihad, which is the only state in which Islam can exist, is an interesting phenomenon. Modern jihad is not fought by armies, and it’s easy to see why. Iraq had the most powerful army in the entire Muslim world. During its war with Iran, it inflicted terrible devastation on its enemy. But when confronted by the United States military, it was unable to present any opposition whatsoever. That’s why modern jihad is being fought by civilians.
Uniformed soldiers are liable to be shot on sight. Thanks to what we mistake for humanism, civilians who ambush and blow up our soldiers in Afghanistan are subject to criminal prosecution, the so called “due processâ€. The reality convincingly demonstrates that the “due process†is totally senseless in the context of modern jihad. Therefore, the jihadists are fighting us unopposed.
It is the same with Taliban, Al-kayeda, Hezbollah and Hamas. Contrary to what you hear from Western politicians, they do not have to disarm. The formidable goals of these organizations cannot be fulfilled without a prolonged armed struggle. Those goals are wholeheartedly supported by tens of millions of seemingly moderate Muslims who constitute their power base. Taliban is not responsible to neither Western governments nor naïve Western pacifists. They are solely responsible to those who put them in power. And those who put them in power want them armed, because Taliban defend their interests.
Therefore, if you want to take power from Taliban, disarming them is not an option, because those who put them in power will eventually find a way to arm them again. Physically exterminating Taliban is not an option either, because those who put them in power will find plenty of others willing to fill the vacancies. Physically exterminating those who put them in power is not an option either, because that would have inevitably amounted to genocide, and our civilization prefers to succumb to genocide rather than inflict one.
The only remaining option is to attempt to eradicate Islam without eradicating Muslims, because Islam is the motivation behind jihad. Technically, this is possible (remember World War II?), but only technically, because Islam is a religion, and all religions are equal in the eyes of the enlightened Westerners.
So, what’s the solution? There is none, unless we decide to fight jihad in earnest. But there is no danger of that. Today Canada has found it to its political advantage to resist the calls for withdrawal in Afghanistan. Tomorrow, as it has happened so many times in the past, it will change; Canada will be instructed by voters to stop in the middle of a battle, and Islam will be handed yet another victory it could have never won on the battlefield.
Now that we know the vehicle that was considered the safest, is not, let’s get a whole bunch of tanks over there asap!!
Whether anyone agrees with the war or not, we should certainly give our troops the best that is available.
It will take us time to realize that, despite our awesome arms and the excellent training of your soldiers, we are weak. We don’t have what it takes to win a war against Islam. We don’t understand our enemy. American president promised to bring them to justice. He might or might not get lucky, but killing or capturing them will change nothing. They are warriors. They expect to die at the enemy’s hands, and they are not afraid of their fate. But how will their death or capture help us? We captured Saddam; did it help us?
They, on the other hand, given the opportunity would not only kill your president or PM, but wouldn’t miss a chance to butcher your grandmother either — not because she posed any danger for them, but because this is a war, and in a war you do not miss a chance to hurt your enemy. I hope you understand there is nothing personal in it. This is jihad.
We thought we won the war when Saddam’s army crumbled under our assault, unable to put up any real resistance. Now we know that by the time Saddam’s army was completely demolished, the war hadn’t even started yet. Now we have a real war on our hands, and we have lost it. It wouldn’t be easy to point out when it happened, because it happened gradually, but I can name the exact moment when we reached the point of no return. It was when we allowed Fallujah to survive the murder and mutilation of four American civilians. We failed to implement the only policy that would’ve given us a chance: submit or die. We failed to destroy Fallujah with all its population. What happened next? Muqtaba al-Sadr, a nobody, a man who has nothing to show for himself except his dead father’s fame, challenges us and survives. Now even children are no longer afraid of us.
Here’s a lesson for all of us. Winning a war and keeping our armour shiny are two very different tasks. We are about to learn that when we are dealing with an enemy like militants of Jihad, these tasks are mutually exclusive.
Nothing exposes our innate weakness better than our refusal to do what needs to be done for fear of causing the hatred of Muslims. Do you think they hate us now any more or any less than they hated us on the eve of 9/11? Are we afraid of how the UN might react if we do the right thing?
Doesn’t it strike you as strange that they, the obvious underdog, do not care whether we love them or hate them, although we can, in theory, blow them away in less time than it took them to film the beheading?
Think about it till they meet us again. And they will.
Tom,
It isn’t about ‘conquering’ Afghanistan. The Taliban are not the legitimate anything in Afghanistan. They’d be similar to the Montana Militia crossing into Canada, conducting ‘guerilla-type’ attacks in an effort to destabilize the Canadian government and install themselves as the government. It is all about convincing Afghans that THEIR government can provide peace and good government and stand up to the Taliban who want to form the government. The VAST majority of Afghans are NOT fighting on either side, just trying to stay alive and raise their families in one of the most desolate places I’ve ever seen.
Judy: They are not conscripts. The Canadian military is a professional army, comprised of Canadians who voluntarily join. IF they have been selected for overseas service, they could seek not to be deployed. That of course would put thier continued service with the CAF in jeopardy (not deployable, not employable). But don’t worry there would be a long line of soldiers/sailors/airmen to fill the hole. There are many who are trying to get overseas, EVEN with the casualties that we are suffering.
David Bakody: What are you talking about? The war brides/citizenship issue has nothing to do with Afghanistan and our mission there, or our continued involvement.
Bill: Good points. The exit strategy will be ill-defined at best (i.e. when is the Afghan army strong enough to conduct its own operations, mainly independent of NATO assistance). But I think IF the Canadian Government gives the military the mandate to be involved in Afghanistan, then this is the only logical means by which we could reasonably get out of there. Remember, the Taliban have no real strongholds inside of Afghanistan; they are just able to conduct these terrorist-type attacks. And I’m not forgetting about Pakistan (maybe one of those concrete walls is in order like being built between the US and Mexico). Hell, if terrorists can blow things up in a place like Israel, then it is not surprising that things/people will get blown up in a place like Afghanistan.
To all: The real question is does Canada support the UN? Why? Because NATO’s involvement in Afghanistan arises from a UN mandate. Of course the next logical question is given our long time membership with NATO, can we as a member nation pull ourselves out of a NATO-led operation and remain a member?
Those questions folks are what needs to be considered PRIOR to spouting about pulling out of Afghanistan. And I can’t wait to hear about how we should be in Darfur instead of Afghanistan. Why? Because folks if we were in Darfur we’d be killing (or trying to) operatives that are responsible for the ongoing genocide happening there. If people don’t want to stop fighting then there is only one thing to do – kill them.
Ed the Hun
God bless our soldiers and their families.
Over the last several years, I understood that security and then Afghanistan rebuilding – piece by piece, region by region, province by province – does take time, a great deal of effort, and possibility blood shed. Setting artificial deadlines serves no purpose.
Having said that, I, for one, am hoping that the Afghanis are worth our sacrifices (death, maiming, and efforts). I truly hope that Afghanis want to have a better life and start teaching their children about a more civilized life. I truly hope the Afghani mothers don’t praise their sons, when they strap on bombs and commit barbaric, cowardly, criminal acts. I truly hope that Afghanis, themselves, want to work for a peaceful society and stop their stupid backward tribal existance.
And if its president wants to reduce civilian killings, that he does something to stop it. For it’s him that needs to step up to the plate and put more effort in governing his country.
The Fallen
28 year old Master Cpl. Colin Bason, Abbotsford BC. He leaves behind a five month old daughter and was deployed four days after her birth.
Capt. Matthew Johnathan Dawe, Clearwater Manitoba
Cpl. Cole Bartsch, Whitecourt, Alberta
Pte. Lane Watkins, Clearwater, Manitoba
Families of the other two soldiers have asked their son’s names not be released at this time.
Tribute and condolence sites have been set up on Facebook.
“You just repeat what Dion says. I see you have learned to tow the party line.” –statement to Garth from Miltoman.
I would venture that one area where Garth would disagree with Dion would be in the referring to the Quebecois as a distinct nation within Canada.
When PMSH first made the announcement, Garth was so horrified that he fled the house. That was as an Independent.
It turns out that Stephane was in kahoots with PMSH on that issue, but so far, I have read of no sense of horror at his leader’s position on this.
Certainly not like the good old days when Garth was a Conservative.
Actually, I was not horrified at what I heard Stephen Harper say, but more disgusted. Pandering to one region of the country in that fashion is ultimately divisive for us all. That is my position, and I adhere to it now, as then, when I was one of only 16 MPs to vote against granting nationhood to the Quebecois. By the way, those who voted against: me as an Independent, and 15 Liberals. No Conservatives had the guts to oppose – not even Micheal Chong, who did not support it, but abstained, lest he, too, be ousted by Mr. Harper, the democrat. — Garth
Now that we know the vehicle that was considered the safest, is not, let’s get a whole bunch of tanks over there asap!!
Whether anyone agrees with the war or not, we should certainly give our troops the best that is available.
By Reg on 07.04.07 11:12 pm
Reg, while I agree on the best equipment, the reality is that tanks are less safe than the new armoured vehicles.
Last night on either the CBC or Global National, it was pointed out that the IED’s have become so powerful they can easily destroy our tanks.
So I must ask…On what basis do you suggest we need more tanks? Tanks are more a psychological threat and a means of destroying structures than of any real value in a mountainous terrain against groud troops. To people who do not fear death, but dishonour, a tank is a target to be destroyed, not to run from.
I suggest the Cold War, classic European tactics are of no value whatsoever in ‘Ghan. That lesson was learned in ‘Nam as well. Look at the Soviets…they had T-72′s, Mil-24 Hind Attack helicopters, and they got their arses kicked by a bunch of nomadic warriors.
The real issue is intelligence. Fighting against unconventional warriors precludes accurate intel. It is akin to fighting cockroaches. they are everywhere and are expert at hiding and striking when it to their advantage. Yes, the ISAF troops have superior equipment, training, and skill sets, but that really means nothing in such a war other than when the Taliban engage the ISAF troops they are most likely going to lose. They simply send more. The Viet Cong did they same thing.
Let us also remember that the U.S. was training and supplying the Mujahadeen, and one of their foremost tactical leaders was Osama Bin Laden. He was personally trained by the CIA Elite Covert Insurgence forces.
All the air power the west has is of no real value due to collateral civilian casualties which only inflame the hatred of the people.
The only winning move, as the WOPR Computer said ‘Is not to play!’ We can only win by helping to build their infrastructure, but engagement in combat, which we all know is necessary to afford safety for the other activities, is a double edged sword…one edge against our forces, and one against the enemy.
“Yesterday was THEN, today is NOW!
“No backtracking present.”
By Bill-Muskoka on 07.04.07 5:37 pm
Bill, this is your conscience speaking! It is time for a reality check. You most certainly DID backtrack from your brash assertion on February 21 that PMSH should be physically REMOVED from the HofC.
Thankfully, cooler heads have prevailed, and thankfully, you did backtrack, or at least did not maintain your untenable and extremist position for long.
But let’s not live in an unreal world by now pretend that we didn’t backtrack.
You have also made the case (rightfully so) that PMSH has backtracked.
My point is simply that if the two of you keep backtracking, that you should eventually meet in the happy middle!
You conscience has spoken!
Let us hold fast to the ideals of the Theosophical position that it takes the wisdom of all 6 billion people on this planet (including PMSH and yourself) to find the way forward. Everybody has their place. Nobody is to be demonized or berated as retarded. Everybody counts!
James Chatham, do I hear you say that the Afghans with the Russians could not defeat the Taliban, and that thke Afghans with NATO cannot now defeat the Taliban, so that the Afgans on their own would be well able to defeat the Taliban?
If people don’t want to stop fighting then there is only one thing to do – kill them.
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.04.07 11:42 pm
Ed, the other alternative is to simply let them kill each other. People who want war, or are satisfied with their status cannot be changed by a foreign power’s desire to ‘win’.
More often than not they will simply join together to fight the foreigners, then return to fighting each other.
The West’s ego garnered from WWII needs a serious reality check. As a pilot I get a perspective of just how vast this planet really is. Having flown in combat missions I can also tell you that air power is great against urban areas and hard targets. Take Viet Nam as an example. There were far more civilians killed than ground troops by the endless massive bombings.
Who won that war? Its surely was not the U.S., nor the western forces. Even the French had enough sense to say ‘Bye, this is unwinnable!’ The Home Team always has the advantage. I think it best to keep the Home Team home where they serve their primary purpose…defending OUR soil. All the billions that have been spent could have been used for security here, and then we would actually be countering any threats. As it is, we have still not secured our own borders. Last time I checked camels cannot walk on water, so that leaves aircraft and ships. LOL
Everybody has their place. Nobody is to be demonized or berated as retarded. Everybody counts!
By Izzy on 07.05.07 10:54 am
Please send that to Steve. Thanks much! Keep us posted on his progress as well!
“We have money for politicians to galavant around the world for photo-ops, new tanks, Quebec, but here is how the current goobernment of Canada treats our veterans”
“$4.6B disabled vets award overturned”
To Bill-Muskoka
Excuse me, Bill, but you haven’t done your research. The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 2003 (Liberals in govt.) that Parliament acted within it’s rights when it passed the legislation in 1990 (Parliament includes all parties) to block interest payments pre-1990. Justice John Brockenshire of the Ontario Superior Court did an end run around the Supreme Court decision. The Ontario Court of Appeal thru that out ruling that the Supreme Court had already decided against the veterans four years ago and the case should have been closed (see the G&M article today pg.A9). It’s too bad that the veterans have lost out interest pre-1990, but you cannot blame the Conservatives completely for this. In fact, this is what you do all the time…smear the Conservatives with innuendos and outright lies. You do not tell the whole story, only what serves your interest.
Haven’t you got a day job? Something useful to do in your life?
but you cannot blame the Conservatives completely for this.
By Sue Thauer on 07.05.07 11:29 am
Why of course I can dear. I can say whatever I damn well please and you, and your phoney link can go take a coffee break there at the Death Star!
Who is the current goobernment Sue? Who was fighting the ruling? 1 + 1 = 2
BTW, I did not blame the conswervatives for it all. But now that you mention it…Why not! They blame the Liberals for everything, probably even when their restroom runs out of toilet paper. Don’t like it? Don’t DO IT!
We do it for OIL?
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22025206-661,00.html
Garth wrote.
>By the same token, the Harper Government >must give us all some clarity on the >extent and depth of this mission, so our >NATO partners can pick up and shoulder >their share of the combat burden.
He in fact has been clear when he stated not once but on several occasions that the mission will end in Feb 2009 and any extension will not happen without approval of parliament. How much more clarity do you need?
For us to tell Nato we are pulling out of our combat role this early in the current campaign (20 months ahead of time) as Dion is demanding is unreasonable and not realistic. For one thing and as unfortunate as it is and like any war and this one is no different, it is impossible to predict what is going to happen one,two or even three years down the road. Like it or not it has not been the Canadian way to cut and run when things get tough. WW1, WW2 and Korea comes to mind and our current military is no different. This is one reason why I am so disgusted by Layton and the NDP’s position on this issue.
By Van on 07.05.07 4:35 pm
Why don’t you immigrate to the U.S.? They will get involved in any war they can find! It is the primary basis of the economy!
Besides, if the facts don’t fit their needs, well then, they create them!
You’ll be so happy watching the tally of the dead on the evening news from your recliner, eh.
Bill,
One point that may challenge something you said earlier on (if I understood your comment). Success in this mission (or any) cannot be measured by the number of dead (especially our own – since if we compare our losses to the ‘bad guys’ then we are wayyyy ahead). The comparison, in my opinion, is whether the cause is important enough. If it is, then short of us being unable to keep up the fight due to our high casualties, the number of our losses becomes less relevant (notice I didn’t say less important). It was my opinion that the cause was important enough to accept the personal risk, and as a Canadian citizen to propose that Canada being a compassionate, modern society, we owe it to countries like Afghanistan to try and help their situation.
An opinion that I hold for any other country in such dire need (Darfur included).
Ed the Hun
Bill, if your comments were meant to insult you succeeded but I just consider the source. Apparently you seem to feel that only your opinions should be heard. Well my friend in a free society all opinions should be heard and even Garth has stated as much.
Like our current service men and women of today I also served for some 23 years as well so people like you can make stupid statements as you just have which brings absolutely nothing to the debate.
also served for some 23 years as well so people like you can make stupid statements as you just have which brings absolutely nothing to the debate.
By Van on 07.05.07 7:02 pm
You have my deep respect for your service. You do not for your opinion. You should know better after those 23 years, than to openly promote warfare.
I would also defend your right to speak your mind, but at the same time offer a strong rebuttal to your statements. Fair enough?
Just to save posting time I want to also add that the concept of the mission is very Canadian, helping people. It is the planning and execution that I seriously question.
Like in the movie ‘The Hunt For Red October’, when Senator Fred Thompson, portraying the Battle Group Admiral, says ‘Son, the Russians don’t take a dump without a plan!’ I want to know we do actually have a Canadian based plan? Not an American plan, not a NATO or ISAF plan, but home grown in accordance with Canadian values, not Rambo’s. You know, as I do, as veteran there are just as many politcos in the military as in Ottawa. They tend to obtain General and other ranks by playing along with the politicos. Not with Canadian blood I say!
Now, will we read that in the MSM? Damn, I hope not, because the enemy will then know it as well. But what we are getting is…’Carry on until we are carried off!’ Not a good plan in my analysis.
I see Pakistan like I did Laos and Cambodia during ‘Nam…the renegade’s refuge., designated ‘Out of Bounds’, ‘Off Limits’, etc. We might as well set up a base on the border for the Taliban and hang out the ‘Welcome’ sign advertising ‘free tea’! What a great opportunity for another Tim’s, eh?
In short, I want to KNOW that the SitRep is based on reality, not ‘maybe’ propaganda, Gung Ho, or any other BS that costs lives.
I hope you will forgive my pessimism based on experience? As to being insulting? Yes I was, and apologize because you did your duty.
Semper Fi!
By Van on 07.05.07 4:35 pm
Funny how sometimes the best thoughts come after we speak. The issue to my acceptance comes down to hearing the national leaders speak with true candor, which I have not heard todate. What I have heard are Bush like statements, and I learned 40 years ago to ignore that kind of BS. I make a lousy sheep. LOL
Garth,
February 2009 will be a very sad moment in the history of the Canadian armed forces. Never before have the Canadian forces withdrawn without gaining their military objective. But as many of the comments here indicate, the mission is caught up in a large and dirty snowball of local warlords and drug traders, a democratically-challenged government, and international politics.
Why February 2009? It’s obvious. That’s one month after G.W. Bush leaving office. The other side in Afghanistan knows this. They know that time is on their side. The Canadian forces have been politically compromised in the face of their enemy. By who? By the Nation’s highest elected official.