Why did Conservative operatives like MP James Moore produce and distribute anti-Rae material like this at the Lib leadership convention? Why is the PMO now trying to get Mr. Rae elected?
Are the Conservatives trying to throw the by-election in Toronto Centre? Maybe. At last one guy thinks so. The candidate.
As you may recall, Toronto Centre used to be called Rosedale, and it’s been held for years by Bill Graham, Liberal defense minister, foreign minister and, prior to Stephane Dion’s arrival, interim party leader. Mr. Graham is hanging ‘em up. His resignation became effective a few weeks ago, opening up the riding for a by-election.
Just the next day, long-time Lib MP and former trade minister Jim Peterson, brother of the former Ontario preem David, also tossed in the towel. This made his constituency, Willowdale, open to new takers. In fact, across the country the rejuvenation of the Liberal party is seeing a number of MPs retiring, setting the scene for a half-dozen electoral contests over the next few months.
But despite the fact that both Graham and Peterson asked in their swan song speeches for early elections in their ridings, it isn’t going to happen until after the Ontario provincial election in mid-October. This means those candidates chomping at the bit to put his or her butt into a green chair will have to wait until sometime late in November to see how it feels.
One of those candidates is Bob Rae, running for the Liberals in Toronto Centre. As you might know, Mr. Rae, a former NDP premier of Ontario, made a startling dash for the leadership of the federal Libs. He finished just behind Michael Ignatieff, who finished behind the victor, Stephane Dion.
This, I can tell you with certainty, was a relief in the PMO.
During my time with the Harper Party, it was an open secret that PMSH was most fearful of a Rae victory, which is why Conservative operatives like MP James Moore engaged in anti-Bob dirty tricks at the Liberals’ leadership convention in Montreal. Rae was considered the potential Bill Clinton of the Canadian political scene, able to be everything Mr. Harper cannot be, namely human. Mr. Harper, himself, was hoping for an Ignatieff win. The Dion victory was a blow – and the reason the PMO exploded in a virulent anti-Dion, multi-million-dollar, “not-a-leader†omni-media campaign.
But now that Mr. Dion is the boss, things have changed. Unable to hobble the new Liberal leader with its tidal wave of smear and innuendo, the Harper Party strategists are hoping Mr. Ignatieff and especially Mr. Rae still have the scent of power in their nostrils. The plan is to facilitate a Rae victory in Toronto Centre, get Bob Rae into the House and have Stephane Dion sitting smack in the middle of the two guys from whom he snatched victory. Then PMSH will start bating them, ask rhetorically who is in charge, and again attack Dion, mocking his consensual style of leadership as being weak.
It’s a classic move. Attack the man, not the ideas. Make the issue leadership, not the country. Do what helps you, not the people. Stephen Harper excels at this. It’s his best work. With his government stagnant in the polls, far from ever winning a majority and no longer new, unblemished or promising, he’s desperate to get Bob Rae in Parliament.
That explains the on-the-ground strategy in Toronto Centre. It explains what PMO political operations director Doug Finley is doing. It certainly clarifies the media blackout, the hobbling of the local campaign and the complete disregard for the hard work and honest efforts of Conservatives there. Mr. Harper is about to elect Mr. Rae.
Don’t believe me? Ask the poor candidate.
121 comments ↓
Garth,
Since I’ve been alive, the issue has been leadership. And far too often just about the leader (Turdeau over Stanfield). So your point, while accurate, is only a reflection of the way that politics has happened in Canada for 40+ years.
(recall Stockwell Day — all about his religion).
Ed the Hun
Which candidate??
Mr. Rae’s legacy in Ontario has not been looked on kindly, and is why Mr. Rae had a harder time garnering support in his own province of Ontario than in other provinces. He has not yet proven himself to be able to run a government wisely. He says he has changed, but once bitten, twice shy.
…. the Harper Party strategists are hoping Mr. Ignatieff and especially Mr. Rae still have the scent of power in their nostrils. – Garth
Do you Garth, think that Ignatieff and Rae are preparing for another leadership race, given that Dion’s standing in the national and Quebec polls are so dismal?
The Liberal party may be at 30% in the polls but Dion is consistently scraping the bottom with ~15% popularity as “best PM”. Surely this must presage Dion’s departure if he can’t get his personal approval ratings substantially increased within the next several months.
This must be obvious to everybody here, yourself included, Garth.
Mark Warner, who seems to be going on about a Con rep every election since 1880. Yeah I know, it’s probably a typo, except he said it more than once.
What’s all the fuss about one-time Bob? The man ran up a huge deficit in Ontario and eventually got the boot after 1 term. Has he been given more time he could have doubled the deficit in Ontario. I for one was glad he did not win the Leadership because I can not possibly vote for the man because he carry’s his NDP big spending baggage…and I do want Harper gone ASAP as well as Layton.
who?
I think it has been mentioned here enough times but might as well repeat it again. Better the devil you know than the one you don’t.
From what the current PM has shown in his leadership style has not impressed me at all. He was supposed to elevate the political arena into making it honourable and even respected. Well, sadly, such is not the case.
No doubt Leasa, Haltonjohn and his inseperable partner (take that however you want) and the usual zombies or rank and file wannabe Tories will no doubt foam at the mouth about Dion.
I am not fully supporting Chretien with his political stunts during his tenure. It was Harper had campaigned on that is my issue with him. So far I have seen someone that is no better than the people he replaced before.
What is most upsetting is that Harper is spending us into a deficit again. If I want a leader that has no concept of fiscal restraint I’d move to the Staes and vote Republican, I mean for Bush or whomever replaces him.
So, once again, please let the triades to Dion and his leadership rise up yet again. But since we expect our political leaders to be absolutely perfect to the point where their shit doesn’t smell, let the personal smears fly again.
Garth, you’re on the mark with this one! Harper’s own behaviour is bordering on paranoid with his absolute ‘command and control’ kind of leadership. When a party like the Conservatives has been completely hijacked so it represents only the narrow views of its leader, it is in deep trouble. The Liberals have had a history of infighting and back-biting, especially during the Chretien/Martin years, but that did not restrict the party from bringing in new ideas and effectively tackling some major national issues like the deficit. Could more have been done with more concensus and creativity from the caucus? Absolutely. That’s why Canadians can be hopeful that Dion will be up to the leadership challenge and tap into the considerable intellectual capital within the Liberal caucus and create an innovative platform to take this country out of its current backward trend. We have a government that seems unable to get past its own rhetoric and simplistic idiology. We need national policies to seriously address climate change, to make significant investments in innovation and technology, to create a learning culture within the country, to restore Canada’s international reputation by refocusing on peace-keeping, and taking an unbiased view of international political situations. In short, we need to rid ourselves of the narrow-minded, fear-mongering Harper government and replace it with a government that has a real vision for the country. One that can inspire individual Canadians to greatness. Will that be the Liberals under Dion? The jury is still out on that one. One thing is sure – the ‘victory by default’ opportunity that the Liberals handed Harper due to the sponsorship scandal has been totally squandered by Harper. I’m sure Harper knows that if the Conservatives do not win a majority in the next election the knives will be out for him…that’s why he is trying his best to undermine Dion and deflect attention from his own significant shortcomings as a real leader.
“Unable to hobble the new Liberal leader with its tidal wave of smear and innuendo,….”
Hate to break it to you Garth, but a horse that isn’t running anyway, does not need to be “hobbled” by anyone. You’ve really hooked your wagon to the wrong star if Dion is your idea of a great leader and future PM. Ain’t gonna happen my friend, ain’t gonna happen.
Actually Garth, you last thread ties in completely why Bob Rae lost the leadership of the LPOC. Did Mr. Dion ever seriously look into the anti-Jew campaign on the floor of the convention? People should have been expelled from the party but as far as I can see nary a peep of discipline was to be heard from Mr. Dion. Also, I can’t understand after that attack against his wife why the man is still in that party. I guess the pursuit of power is more important. L
Garth says -
“able to be everything Mr. Harper cannot be, namely human.”
Your an ass Turner.
Okay, just in the nick of time we have an explanation of what government is and isn’t, should, and should not be. Enjoy!
1) Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But then I repeat myself.
- Mark Twain
2) I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
- Winston Churchill
3) A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
- George Bernard Shaw
4) Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner .
- James Bovard, Civil Libertarian (1994)
5) Foreign Aid might be defined as a transfer of money from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.
- Douglas Casey, Classmate of Bill Clinton at Georgetown University
6) Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to boys.
- P.J. O’Rourke, Civil Libertarian
7) Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
- Frederic Bastiat, French Economist (1801-1850)
- Ronald Reagan (1986)
9) I don’t make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.
- Will Rogers
10) If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free.
- P.J. O’Rourke
11) In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other.
- Voltaire (1764)
12) Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn’t mean politics won’t take an interest in you.
- Pericles (430 B.C)
13) No man’s life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session.
- Mark Twain (1866)
14) Talk is cheap… except when Congress does it.
- Unknown
15) The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.
- Winston Churchill
16) What this country needs are more unemployed politicians.
- Edward Langley, Artist (1928 – 1995) Amen!!!
17) A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
- Thomas Jefferson
You are right on about Harper’s intentions. Baird was at the convention doing the same thing. The problem is our party must not fall for it and question Dion’s leadership. We have the right leader for the party and the country.
Bob supported by CRAP?
Microcosm and Macrocosm.
Saving city begins with citizens
Guess what? The same reality qapplies to Canada as a nation.
Another reason Harper fears Dion and Rae…Intelligence!
Now, consider what PMSH is about to do to OUR National Security next mont in ‘private’ meetings with Bush and Mexico’s Presidente at the SPP meeting in…Where? Quebec?
Canada: Energy pussycat
And finally…Here is what the Harper government does NOT want us to hear, but does want to do…another planned failure.
http://www.thestar.com/living/article/238961“>Corporate logic has no business in health care
They have already tried this fiasco in Ontario. another fine example of Flaherty’s gross incompetence. and McGuinty is no better.
“It’s a classic move. Attack the man, not the ideas.”
and who would know better than you, Garth? You’ve made a full-time job of it these past 18 months.
14% says it working Garth. I am no doubt sure that you also have personal preferences concerning who you want to square off against too. Its just politics as normal.
Very interesting Garth. Nelson, the Conservative candidate is Mark Warner. Some of my admittedly partisan musings on what might happen in Toronto Centre are here (follow the link).
Warner actually commented on that blog post I’ve just linked to.
Chris Tindal
Nominated Candidate, Toronto Centre
Green Party of Canada
Which candidate??
By Nelson on 07.23.07 11:19 pm
The CPC candidate in Toronto Centre is Mark Warner.
Phone giant’s struggle hard to watch
BRIAN FLEMMING http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=47166&sc=93
people in ontario will NOT vote for Bob Rae..we dislike him immensely
[...] commenter just tipped me off about this post on Garth Turner’s blog. (Yes, this is the first time I’ve mentioned his name since our [...]
Ah, how soon we forget. Harper’s numbers were painfully low when he was in opposition, Chretien was hated in
Quebec, Trudeau was hated in Quebec – and we all know how that turned out.
Gosh, HaltonJohn just looked in the mirror and called himself an ass – oh HaltonJohn, don’t be so hard on yourself. We all understand that your imput is extremely limited and laughed at. Go for a walk.
Garth this is all just standard politics. What do you expect them to do,nottry to win the next election? Liberals have stopped discussing “dirty tricks” at the leadership convention some tme ago. The Conservatives have no hope in Toronto Centre, why would they waste resources there. They target ridings they think they can win, like yours for instance or Guelph. This is smart political tactics. If Kerry had forgotten about Florida and assumed it would go Bush in the last election, he’d be President right now. Rae will win his by-election hands down, with the NDP second. He will sit in the front row with Ignatieff beside Dion, so what. Its a Liberal strength that our leader actually allows other MP’s to do their jobs instead of being an uber control freek that micormanages everything. canadians especially women are getting tired of Harper’s “father knows best” political style. Its not helping him. Dion will be Dion. he is a different kind of leader, a very equitable, 21st century kind of leader, not threatened by others in his party shining and using their strengths, which don’t just include being an attack dog bully without any ideas of their own, aka Baird. Harper is right. Dion is not a Conservative leader, stuck in a 19th century model of male domineering, bully politics with outdated modes and ideas . Dion is a Liberal Leader!
Yes Muskoka Bill I read Linda McQuaig:
At least someone is reporting something.
Another interesting news item this morning says Peter McKay and Harper are going to be sending more millions to the Palestian government with the statement they have to clean up the corruption.
This is the same governemnt who is sending millions to the Harzai regime,many of which are unaccounted for cuz IT’S MISSING.
The Afgahn people didn’t get it.The Afghan police and newly trained troops are either getting paid 4 months late or in some cases not at all.
There’s no obvious signs of any meaningful recontruction there.
The Taliban seem to be in charge,at least now with the hostage incident still playing itself out.
And Karzai keeps shuffling one corrupt official to another town and importing an even more corrupt one,as is currently,the new mayor of Kabul.
If opinion means anything and common sense dictates,any reasonable thinking person could conclude,that Harper,O’Conner,McKay and Day knowing all this,are complicit in the Karzai corrution.
http://www.skyreporter.com
Read especially his May 31 post.
It seems that we want Rae gone, Ignatieff gone, Dion gone, Harper gone, Layton gone, etc., etc.
Why, even the Green Party is having more than its share of internal squabbles and conflicts!
What do we do? Bring back Joe Clark? Look to Justin Trudeau?
Or is our problem a human one, and not just that of certain politicians?
Food for thought.
Garth’s foolish quote’
“Attack the man, not the ideas. Make the issue leadership, not the country. Do what helps you, not the people. Stephen Harper excels at this.”
Garth, You would have to be an idiot to not know that what you describe here is typical politics.
Are you angry that Harper may be better than Dion at this type of normal politics ?
Or, are you angry that your leader Dion is so weak ?
Or, are you claiming that Liberals do not do the same thing ? Right…
Your quote is an oxymoron to say the least.
Look at yourself in the mirror Garth. In this post, you attack Harper by questioning his humanity. Attacking the man are you Garth ?
I can tell you are more liberal than ever by the total and complete hypocrisy in this post.
You define hypocrite.
Yuck,,,
Garth, could there be some unhealed hurt that goes back to your relationship with the CONS back to February of 2006? Could you be trying to get back at them for things that they have said and done toward you?
I am not saying that what was done to you was just, but this is life, isn’t it? We have all felt that life has been unfair to us at times.
Let’s rise above it? Let’s not return evil for evil. Let’s be kind and gracious, and together, we will reap a good harvest!
The only good harvest is what is best for Canada. — Garth
Personally I think Miltonman, Allan & Haltonman are one & the same. Sorry, but I forget the ‘net terminology’ for such trolls who post under various names. They relentlessly put down Dion but avoid any discussion of Harpie’s low approval numbers – tho he’s been the head of our ‘new gov’t’ (pardon me while I up chuck) for 18 mos.
And, many others, including Catherine, ‘L’, etc. just bitch.
It looks like the NDP have an intriguing candidate in El-Farouk_Khaki
“He was born in Tanzania, which his family fled in 1971 escaping political persecution. He grew up in Vancouver, earned a law degree from the University of British Columbia, and has lived and worked in Toronto since 1989.
In 1993, he founded Salaam, the first queer Muslim group in Canada and second in the world.
Won’t the NDP throw everything but the kitchen sink at Rae, in order to try and stop him from getting into Parliament ? I expect to see the same dirty trick that was used at the Liberal leadership convention–that Rae’s wife is Jewish–pulled by the NDP in the by-election.
And yes, it must be disconcerting to Liberals like Irwin Cotler that Dion never did get to the bottom of that anti-Jewish stunt.
Sorry Garth – I do not see how this article adds anything to anything! It just brings up the usual partisan name calling etc. I was beginning to warm up a little to you especially your position on income splitting. When you go back to horrendously low statements like saying Harper is not human you take the debate back to the ditch. Take a vacation! You don’t have to write something every day!!
Apparently I do. — Garth
people in ontario will NOT vote for Bob Rae..we dislike him immensely
By greatgranny on 07.24.07 9:23 am
No, you dislike him immensely. No we involved!
Accidetally hit the enter key on my last rant. Just utterly pissed off. Fed Govt. hasn’t changed. Worked in the PMO office during last passport crisis – maybe 38 yrs ago. DH went to localPassport Office in late May to get a new Cdn. Passport as his Father (in France) was ill & we were worried. Said it would take 6 wks min. His passport was due to expire begin of July, IIRC. They said he’d have to hand in his passport & wait 6 weeks to get another – as he couldn’t hold 2 at the same time. Duh. When he got his new one he could hand in his old one. Your new passport is only effective after your old one runs out. May not be explaining it correctly, but he would be without a Cdn passport for 6 to 8 weeks waiting for a new one. Fed up, he got a French one within a week or 2 – a 1 page onnline application cause all details were already on file with the French Consulate & for 10 years @ 3/4 the price of a Cdn one for 5 years.
Why is it that our govt. has our SIN number, our annual tax returns, enormous amounts of data on each citizen, yet we have to provide all kinds of the same info to every agency that we deal with. And, we’re still paying $M’s (maybe $B’s) in cost overruns for fed database integration & management.
Sorry, just one – among many, am sure, many, TO’d citizens.
KPN – who should be out gardening
Calgary Junkie, the Tory candidate looks pretty strong too – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Warner_%28Canadian_Politician%29 – a Black guy who is an international lawyer with a ton of university degrees and internaional work experience. It is hard to figure out why they would not be highligting Warner. Warner should give Bob a run for his money in Rosedale, and be competitive with the NDP candidate among the immigrant voters. It is hard to fathom why the Tories would write this one off, unless Garth’s analysis is correct.
“The only good harvest is what is best for Canada.” — Garth.
That is our problem. We all tend to think that what is best for us personally is best for Canada as a whole.
Could our root problem not be the other guy, but latent and sometimes overt narcissism in all of us?
A little humility would go a long way.
Mr. Harper is about to elect Mr. Rae. – Garth
And Mr. Dion is about to re-elect Mr. Harper?
Given Mr. Dion’s consistenly low popularity levels, and no apparent way to improve his personal popularity, Mr. Dion as Liberal leader is going to re-elect Mr. Harper as prime minister.
Extending your logic, Garth, produces such rational outcomes. Of course if you are successful at pulling down Mr. Harper to Mr. Dion’s level, it could become a race.
Or is our problem a human one, and not just that of certain politicians?
Food for thought.
By Ike on 07.24.07 10:53 am
As I have asked, repeatedly, ‘What is the disease?’
Here are a few poignant thoughts for consideration by all willing to let go of the bottom of the river and find new meaning. All quoted from the new ‘Hunters of Dune’
Why ask a man who is already lost to lead you? Why then are you surprised if he leads you nowhere?’ Duncan Idaho
Memory is a weapon sharp enough to inflict deep wounds. Mentat’s Lament
Learn to recognize your greatest enemy. It may even be yourself! Mother Commander Murbella-Chapterhouse Archives
Why is it that our govt. has our SIN number, our annual tax returns, enormous amounts of data on each citizen, yet we have to provide all kinds of the same info to every agency that we deal with.
By kpn on 07.24.07 1:01 pm
Because the Privacy Act prohibits agencies from exchanging the data without a Court order. Be thankful for it.
In the U.S. Bell has as much information on people as the Federal Government does, and they sell it to phone soliticitors at will. So do the Credit Bureaus.
People still give out their SIN to non-authorized companies. The only ones authorized to ask for it is the government, and then only certain agencies, but not the phone or credit card companies. The Banks are however because they act as agents for the government in sending tax payments in.
Hate to be pedantic but it is the Minister of National Defence, not Defense.
To paraphrase Mao “It doesn’t matter if Bob Rae is Orange or Red as long as he catches votes.”
By kpn on 07.24.07 12:20 pm
Seems impossible, Allan is intelligent from time to time!
“Learn to recognize your greatest enemy. It may even be yourself!” Mother Commander Murbella-Chapterhouse Archives
–By Bill-Muskoka on 07.24.07 2:07 pm
How true, Bill, how true!
We have found the enemy, and it is US (not U. S. but US)!
I am happy to see these discussions going to a deeper level.
Seems impossible, Allan is intelligent from time to time!
By pjw on 07.24.07
It ain’t rocket science, and the polling numbers don’t lie because they are consistently low for Dion personally with no apparent way to jack them up quickly.
The political tactic seems to be if you can’t do anything to improve your leader, try to drag down the other guy’s leader. This seems to be what Garth is doing over and over again. Sorry Garth.
When will the Liberal party popularity substantially surpass that of the Conservatives, and when will Dion’s personal popularity rise to a level befitting a national leader?
All this sniping and slagging Harper seems somewhat futile. The bigger challenge is to boost Dion’s national popularity.
Unless the Liberal strategy is to show Canadians how bad Harper is, and then offer them Dion as the best of the worst.
And Mr. Dion is about to re-elect Mr. Harper?
Given Mr. Dion’s consistenly low popularity levels, and no apparent way to improve his personal popularity, Mr. Dion as Liberal leader is going to re-elect Mr. Harper as prime minister.
Extending your logic, Garth, produces such rational outcomes. Of course if you are successful at pulling down Mr. Harper to Mr. Dion’s level, it could become a race.
By Allan on 07.24.07 2:06 pm
In part you seem to have answered your own question but I would go further to say that no one else has to pull down Mr. Harper: he has been doing a great job of that by himself.
Conservative political strategy has been to focus on the leader and his leadership. Under certain circumstances that can be a major error. With Dion’s low key approach the focus is not just on the leader but on the potential “team” and as such the party builds supports even if the leader does not.
The Conservative strategy has put all the responsibility on Harper’s leadership and every time he makes a questionable move it provides a major blow to the entire party.
The result is that Conservative support is falling and Liberal support rising. The “trust factor” with regard to Harper is falling so that even when he targets a particular group to gain votes there is an sense that his promises are of limited if any value.
KPN –
I’ll leave the Harper bashing to you. I will bash Dion. OK. Fool.
Duuuh.
“Rae was considered the potential Bill Clinton of the Canadian political scene, able to be everything Mr. Harper cannot be, namely human. ”
Garth, your evil side is showing. You may like Mr. Harper’s ideology or his personality, but, Mr. Harper is just as much human as you are, and Mr. Harper is just as much Canadian as you are.
BTW: After what Mr. Rae did as premier, I do not trust him or his judgements. The only guy on the Liberal side that I thought would have a chance of me considering ever voting Liberal would have been Iggy.
And yes, it must be disconcerting to Liberals like Irwin Cotler that Dion never did get to the bottom of that anti-Jewish stunt.
By Calgary Junkie on 07.24.07 12:26 pm
That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Mr. Dion could have taken the lead on this horrible racist event on the convention floor and looked strong by expelling those involved. He did say he ‘didn’t think it was a good thing’, but that’s where it stopped. It would have been easy peasy to find those responsible and act like a man. But, no. Perhaps it was because he would have had to take a stand against the very people who pushed him into the leadership? Something smells. Why didn’t the media follow this up?
Then there is this insult to Douglas Jung (watch the video read the article):
http://stevejanke.com/archives/234596.php
Was he lying or just really dumb? L
Canadians are pussies…can’t even hang on to their own energy resources and now are on a course for selling out even more…..
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/238985
We want to sell it all and we want to sell it now! Ease those regulations, drive them pipelines forward. Yeeeeeeeehas partner. Canadians are glad to get stuck with the extra pollution because they’ll unplug their Microwaves and TVs to make up for it. “This helps Canadian sovereignty.” says Mister Lunn.
Click here for story
By Kevin on 07.24.07 2:16 pm
According to the Oxford Dictionary both are correct. ‘Defence’ for Canada, and ‘Defense’ for the U.S.. Small difference, but very common between English and American. LOL You should hear them try to speak French!
I guess this leaves us to ascertain whether a ‘fence’ separating Canada and the U.S. will be called a ‘fence’ here, and as the word is also ‘fence’ in the U.S., perhaps we can not worry?
However, the U.S. will regard it as part of their ‘defense’ while we will look at it as part of our ‘defence.’ Maybe it will be called ‘De Fence’, eh?
“Rae was considered the potential Bill Clinton of the Canadian political scene”
Does that mean that Bob Rae doesn’t inhale either?
This continent is clearly on the road to hell, where people such as HoJo (aka Holton Joan), angry canadian (Leasa), got a rope (they’re all one and the same) have lived in relative obscurity for millenia now.
However, I’m not going as I’ve got other things to do. Hell is a great place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there — gets kinda toasty at times!
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/america-becoming-global-credit-risk/story.aspx?guid=%7BAE018C0F%2DA657%2D47E0%2DA53F%2DE67A522A775A%7D&dist=TNMostRead
“Unable to hobble the new Liberal leader with its tidal wave of smear and innuendo,….â€
Hate to break it to you Garth, but a horse that isn’t running anyway, does not need to be “hobbled†by anyone. You’ve really hooked your wagon to the wrong star if Dion is your idea of a great leader and future PM. Ain’t gonna happen my friend, ain’t gonna happen.
By Kevin O’Neill on 07.24.07 5:43 am
Don’t feel so sure Kevin. I totally agree with Garth’s post. Makes perfect sense to me & if truth be told, you & your buddies are scared to death of finding out how effective Mr. Dion will be to the majority of Canadians ONCE an election is called & Mr. Dion announces his party platform.
Canadians are smarter than you people think.
CB Innes wrote.
>The result is that Conservative support >is falling and Liberal support rising.
I am thinking that you are getting your data from some magic hat. The latest Environics Research poll just doesn’t support your position. Sorry about that. It shows the CPC in June at 37%. They were at 36% in Jan 2006. The Liberals are at 28% in June and were at 30% in January 2006. I would stay that the CPC party has pretty well remained unchanged as have the Liberals since the election..
On leadership approval, Only Layton has increased support since May 2007. Harper dropped to 48% from 54% and Dion has dropped to 38% from 40. I suppose you can take some solace from this.
However in the who is a the best leader category it is all bad news for Dion. Harper is still on top with with 36% a one point drop since March. Dion remains unchanged at 16%. Imagine 16% for a leader who wants to be Pm and only 16% of the public think would make the best PM. This hasn’t changed hardly at all. He is even worse off in Quebec where he dropped to 10%. A dropped from 12% in March.
The “trust factor†with regard to Harper is falling so that even when he targets a particular group to gain votes there is an sense that his promises are of limited if any value
I would suggest that in the future you check out the facts first before making silly comments like the ones above. Cheers
“The “trust factor†with regard to Harper is falling so that even when he targets a particular group to gain votes there is an sense that his promises are of limited if any value.”
By C. B. Innes on 07.24.07 3:40 pm
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
His promises are worthless. The only thing I now trust Harper to do is lie.
Every time I hear him speak I expect he is lying about something or other just as he lied about Publicly Traded Income Trusts which anyone with $500 can purchase.
By Allan on 07.24.07 3:21 pm
I believe you missed my point entirely!
Speaking of ‘defence’ I see the NRA supported CPC still believes we can become the Wild, Wild West North!
Liberals thwarting gun reforms: Tories
Still, the Harper goobernment points fingers, but does not acknowledge it wants to protect these Neanderthals with an itchy trigger fingers, and the L:iberals do support tougher sentencing…Butttttttttttt. Oh, God forbid some redneck should have to abandoned his beloved hand gun.
Now, the rest of the story. I have in my personal possession an Expert Pistol Medal as a U.S. Marine. Yes, I, too have enjoyed precision shooting. With a long gun, aka, rifle, I define precision as a three inch group at 1200 metres (yes we had to qualify at that distance with iron sights).
I also came here from the U.S. where men’s penises are shorter than most their firearm barrels.
Canada does NOT have a Second Ammendment to our Constitution, hence no ‘Right to bear arms!’ A simple legal FACT!
In fact, the U.S. Constitution only allows a ‘Well regulated Militia’, which today is called the National Guard, under the direction of the Governor of each State.
The Conservatives are fighting for votes from the wrong people. Harper, and his bunch of ‘Western’ clowns want to maintain handgun ownership. Fine!
Here is how it must work to protect the public. You may OWN a handgun, but it must remain at the range, under lock and key. It cannot be removed from the certified range. All repairs and transfers must be done at the range.
Second, let the law enforcement deal with the illegal importers harshly. Life in prison as Dangerous Offenders…no leeway. Immigrant in possession of a firearm? Deportation…no appeals.
Then, after sufficient time, if the gun problem is cured, not merely reduced, people may regain their choice, not right, to possess a handgun. This excludes those in Law Enforcement. In fact, the need for personal firearms would become obsolete, if it worked properly.
They can start at Toronto’s Pearson Airport, Montreal, Vancouver, and any other point of entry through which illegal weapons are flowing. Get caught at a border crossing…You lose you vehicle, are tried, convicted, and will spend the next 10 years of your life behind bars at Hard Labour.
I sold all my guns when I immigrated here because I like walking the streets without the fear of needing one. I could not do that in some American cities, because of the arseholes walking around being Clint Eastwood, and Wyatt Earp.
As to these Gangbangers…DEPORT their arse immediately. No more games.
This may be one of the most insidious issues before Parliament and the Ontario Legislature. I speak from dire experience.
If the punks want to kill each other…fine. I do not care, but, make them go mano-a-mano, face to face. Use your little knives Punks, and enjoy the pain.
“Then there is this insult to Douglas Jung (watch the video read the article)”
Yes, the Blogging Tories are all over that gaffe. Strange that the media missed it. I guess re-writing Chinese-Canadian history is not as important as knowing which way the Niagra River flows.
JUST A REMINDER OF WHAT A LEADER IS NOT!
Mr. Harper lied on Income Trusts, not exactly what a leader should be doing. He actually encouraged seniors to put their retirement funds into Trusts before the election and then slammed them on Halloween night with a tax, something he railed against Mr. Goodale for even considering.
Oh well, so Stevie is a liar.
Then of course on day one of his government, he decided to take an unelected person from the Province of Quebec and make him his Public Works Minister, this was not unprecedented but rather amazingly he appointed him to the Senate so that no one from the opposition would have direct access to question him, not only that, but Mr. Harper was the one who campaigned on an elected senate and the first thing he does is appoint one. Then of course, the Emerson affair!
How about his letter to the poor widow who is waiting for veteran’s benefits promising that if he is elected she will get them immediately, of course, she is still waiting. Like all his promises, they were intended only to get votes, and it appears he had no intention of living up to his word.
Next his Defence Minister has lied at least three times, we are aware of, in the House of Commons. Twice on the detainees, and once on the funeral of soldiers file. Mr. Harper supports Mr. O’Connor, and why not, one liar supporting another, seems reasonable. Mr. Harper, in supporting Mr. O’Connor however, lays the blame on General Hillier, which is a shame, because here is a good, honest and capable leader of our troops. But Mr. Harper is more interested in campaigning than supporting our troops. It wouldn’t look good if he fired his lying and incompetent Defence Minister, therefore, let’s crap on the troops.
Mr. Harper, before the last election, promised an open, honest, accountable and transparent government. The above already proves he was lying there.
But not only does Mr. Harper muzzles his MPs, and now we are getting a sense why (most of them are incompetent), but he also hides from the free press. His Finance Minister cannot release the information regarding income trusts, with the exception of 18 pages of black out propaganda. His Foreign Minister is now being questioned regarding a file that his department said never existed and now has been released, blacked out of course. One of his MPs inadvertently and conveniently forgot to declare an $8000 gift.
The Atlantic Accord has been another incident where the Prime Minister promised one thing to get elected, then changed it after and supplied two options to the provinces, blackmailing them into acceptance of less than was promised prior to the election. The fact that Bill Casey has studied the plan and deemed it a betrayal to the people of Nova Scotia and has put his political career on the line and the fact that three premiers feel the same way about the promise prior to the election and the resulting budget that changed the accord in their opinion leaves one with the distinct impression the Prime Minister misled or outright lied. The idea that everyone is out of step but Harper is a bit far fetched especially in light of all the other lies taking place within the CPC.
The now infamous quote from Foreign Affairs Minister MacKay:
“We will not throw a member out of caucus for voting his conscience,†MacKay said. “There will be no whipping, flipping, hiring or firing on budget votes as we saw with the Liberal government.â€
This was said in the House with the Prime Minister present, two weekS prior to Bill Casey’s vote on the budget. Mr. MacKay’s explanation “ I never thought Bill would vote against the budget.†This excuses the blatant lie?
Why didn’t Mr. MacKay retract his infamous statement the day after he made it? It was all part of their constant campaigning in the House to make the Liberals look bad by comparison. In other words, we don’t muzzle our MPs on matters of conscious, you do! The foremost priority of this government is to bash Liberals in the House of Commons, governing second.
Stockwell Day, upholding the tough on crime promise of the Conservatives tells the Canadian public that a ban on handguns would only lead to higher gun crimes as evidenced in the U.K. The only problem is he lied, gun crimes went down in the U.K. 16% in 2006 from the previous year. Seems like Mr. Day must have a reason for misleading the Canadian public, could it be that the gun lobby got to him?
And of course, there is the manual of the CPC, instructing their committees chairs in the House of Commons on how to destroy the democratic process. Things like interviewing witnesses in advance and if what they have to say can be construed as unfavourable to the government, then there are specific steps one can take to obstruct or shut down the committee.
These are just a few of the things that are happening under the so called leadership of Mr. Harper, I would suggest maybe Mr. Lord might be a better choice for the CPC. Certainly Stephen Harper is not a leader or if he is one, certainly not the kind of leader he promised. The facts were bear out a leader without integrity. In fact, not the kind of leader Canada deserves. So being critical of the other party leaders could be a shade hypocritical by those who claim Mr. Harper is a leader. Personally I think Mr. Harper is an embarrassment to Canada and Canadians. His comment to the Leader of the Opposition regarding his lack of military service and therefore was unqualified to make judgment on the lies of the Defence Minister showed the absolute lack of class and unworthiness of this Prime Minister.
His comments in the house are less than Prime Ministerial. Harper accused Liberal MP Marlene Jennings of putting her spouse on the Immigration and Refugee Board and Lucienne Robillard, a former Immigration Minister of installing her husband as well. Deliberately trying to mislead the Canadian public and defame what he perceives the enemy.
In fact, Robillard’s ex-husband, Jacques Lasalle, was appointed to the board in 1990 when Brian Mulroney was prime minister, and Jennings’ husband, Luciano del Negro, joined the board in 1996, before his wife was first elected to the Commons in 1997.
Harper’s communications director, Sandra Buckler, was quoted as saying: “The former Liberal government never reimbursed Canadian taxpayers when they used the Challenger (government jet) for non-government business.”
In fact, Liberals produced reams of cancelled cheques and receipts from former prime minister Paul Martin, reimbursing the federal treasury.
Who can forget the attempted smear campaign against Liberal Bains?
This is the Prime Minister of Canada. How shameful!
What’s the debate here? Conservative Party strategy? Why is the topic always the Conservative Party? Is it because the Liberals don’t have any vision of where they are going? Maybe they’re writing another “Red Book”?
Dell
I would suggest maybe Mr. Lord might be a better choice for the CPC.
By pjw on 07.24.07 8:29 pm
Heavens, be careful what you wish for. As an NBer I can say that Lord was the “do nothing” premier. He is a ‘manager,’ not a ‘leader.’
Some ‘leaders’ are great on talk and on what they are doing, but when the facts be known, they are not all what they claim to be.
Please remember that Lord lost the last provincial election in NB in Sept. 06. It was for a reason.
I’ve seen it tossed around on several NB blogs what Lord’s legacy is–guess what–no one can come up with anything.
Speaking of Leaders…looks like Mr Dion is proving the conservatives right…people are staying financially away from the Libs in droves. From CTV:
But insiders in various camps lay the blame squarely on Dion’s office for the flops thus far. They say the leader’s office didn’t consult with local Liberals about the best timing or location for fundraisers and gave them only a couple weeks notice to try to rustle up potential donors who hadn’t already contributed the legal maximum of $1,100 to leadership campaigns….The first event in Halifax two weeks ago — a cocktail reception featuring Leader Stephane Dion and six of his erstwhile rivals — attracted about 60 people who paid $250 each. After expenses, however, party insiders say the event netted only about $5,400….they were enough of a bust that two similar fundraisers planned for Toronto the following week were cancelled.
Dell
If Harper was really that desperate to get Bob Rae into Parliament, would he not have called the by-election immediately after the seat became available, and early enough not to really conflict with the Ontario election?
Did you read the word ‘desperate’ anywhere? — Garth
By Allan on 07.24.07 3:21 pm
I believe you missed my point entirely!
By pjw on 07.24.07 7:57 pm
An intelligent person cannot avoid recognizing that the national polls confirm that Dion is not a leader that Canadians want as prime minister.
It seems somewhat strange that Liberal MP Garth Turner is only attacking Harper and not doing anything significant to boost Dion’s leadership. Perhaps Liberals are resigned to Dion’s poor showing, and are only left with attacking Harper personally.
A perfect example is the standard tome posted above:
JUST A REMINDER OF WHAT A LEADER IS NOT!
….
By pjw on 07.24.07 8:29 pm
I think it would be helpful for all Liberals if an equal effort is made to enhance Dion’s leadership, so he can improve his polling popularity.
PJW;
Thanks for the list of reasons Mr. Harper has discredited himself as the leader of Canada. It seemed like a long post but it could have, in fact, been longer if you had gone into policies as well.
Great Granny:
Bob Rae tried to do his best under economic conditions not of his making. The people who dislike him are those who did not understand the complicated situation with which he had to contend.
One thing about Bob Rae–his ego is not so big that he blamed his shortcoming on others (as the CPC’s have done unfailingly since coming to office). He said he made mistakes but had learned from them. He has been in demand more recently to rectify the mistakes of others. He is very intelligent and has had a wide range of experience. People are fortunate he’s willing to work for Canada in this capacity. I am a WASP (and so what!) and I like him and I think his wife is very nice too. So there, Granny!
“I am thinking that you are getting your data from some magic hat. The latest Environics Research poll just doesn’t support your position. Sorry about that. It shows the CPC in June at 37%. They were at 36% in Jan 2006. The Liberals are at 28% in June and were at 30% in January 2006. I would stay that the CPC party has pretty well remained unchanged as have the Liberals since the election..”
The ONLY poll worth even looking at is SES. They are the ONLY polling company to absolutely nail the results of the last two elections to within 0.1% for each party. Anyone looking at the Environics numbers showing the Block at 7-8% will know the survey has flawed sampling. Second best polling is Decima, but still not anywhere close to the proven accuracy of SES. Latest SES shows Liberals at 33% and Cons at 32%, but those are June numbers. I suspect SES will be out in late July or early August with an update. This is the ONLY poll to put any stock into.
This is the Prime Minister of Canada. How shameful!
By pjw on 07.24.07 8:29 pm
Boy, are you ever mouthy. Now tell me all that this great lieberal party, that you support, did for this country besides stealing millions of dollars from the taxpayers. You and your thieves are the ones that should be ashamed of yourselves. You say you are from NB, well while you are at it, please tell me what this great NB Lieberal Party has done since they came to power besides breaking all their promises made during the election. A lieberal is a lieberal regardless whether they are an MP or an MLA. You are such a die hard lieberal that you can’t see the forest for the trees. Wake up and smell the coffee. How about moving into the main stream of life for awhile and seeing how others live.
“What’s the debate here? Conservative Party strategy? Why is the topic always the Conservative Party? Is it because the Liberals don’t have any vision of where they are going? Maybe they’re writing another “Red Bookâ€?
Dell”
Look at your own party first Dell. They are so short of anything even coming close to resembling a fresh idea on the environment that all they have done in office is cancel all of Dion’s plan, bitch and moan about the “Liberal legacy” on the environment, then reintroduce Dion’s plan, calling the components by different names, and backing them with LESS funding. That’s why they’re down in the polls – the Canadian public is beginning to see how bankrupt the party is terms of new, innovative ideas. And, I suppose you call this leadership? What a joke!
I think the Liberals are playing it smart. There is no point in introducing any policy initiatives too early since Harper and his cronies would simply steal good ideas that they cannot create for themselves. All Dion has to do is keep within striking distance of Harper until the next election, then unveil his integrated policy platform so the Canadian public will see Harper for what he really is, an ideological, shallow thinker.
Many of the Liberal policies that were never implemented under the Martin government because of Harper such as the Kelowna Accord, and the national day care program were excellent ideas that the country sorely needs. My hope is that the “Dion team” will bring a host of fresh ideas to move this great country forward.
Harper has never believed in, or supported, the notion of a national government taking charge of Canada. All you have to do is look at his writings over the years. This is the guy that wanted to build a ‘firewall’ around Alberta. He is mired in a parochial view of Canada with the provinces being supreme and the federal government having a narrow role to play. Given the challenges and competition that Canada faces on the world stage we need a very strong central government directing the country through national programs, not one that serves the short-sighted whims of the provinces which is the extent of Harper’s ‘vision’.
Boy, are you ever mouthy. Now tell me all that this great lieberal party, that you support, did for this country besides stealing millions of dollars from the taxpayers.
I do not support the Liberal party Shadow, wrong again! I voted Conservative in the last federal election. I have seen the error of my ways now. I will vote for Garth, not because he is a Liberal but in spite of it. He is one of the few independent MPs in Canada!
Reality check!
Dion is done like dinner..tutti fini
Harper is popular as is the CPC. they’ll be around another 5 years…..
The Liberals are in deep dodo..no money and no support and (no one cares)
Garth Turner has zero chance of holding on to his seat even with the desperate Liberal switch
That’s the reality, no bull…. Now enjoy the rest of your day…….
Yet another of the truthful posts Garth won’t publish
A total ban on hand guns just isn’t going to help very much if at all. Just how is a gun ban going to get illegal smuggled guns off the street in the first place? That is the problem.
The objective should be to try a prevent smuggled handguns,illegal and stolen guns from getting into Canada..
PJW Wrote
Stockwell Day, upholding the tough on crime promise of the Conservatives tells the Canadian public that a ban on handguns would only lead to higher gun crimes as evidenced in the U.K. The only problem is he lied, gun crimes went down in the U.K. 16% in 2006 from the previous year.
Your comments are c=very misleading. For one thing the gun ban in the UK went into effect long before 2006 and Day was talking about right after.
He did not lie about gun crime going down after the ban. There is evidence that it actually went up by 40%
But don’t take my word for it but here is two links for your enjoyment.One from 2001 and another from 2003.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2640817.stm
The following site provides some interesting detail about what the UK is doing to fight gun crime that the Liberals should take to heart to support the CPC’s fight on crime including sentencing.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/gun-crime/
Thank God Garth has enough people writing to his blog to keep him busy feeling good about himself.
After all……..spending hours each day googling his own name must have been tedious for such a hard-working MP with so much time on his hands.
Tell me Garth….when you aren’t admiring yourself and over-estimating your talent and worth…..how much work are you doing on behalf of your constituents?
Thanks for the useful contribution to our discussion. Do they know what you are doing on office time there at DND in Ottawa? And what is it about me that makes you feel so threatened? — Garth
By Van on 07.25.07 1:15 pm
Didn’t save the newpaper but here is the exact quote I am refering to:
“There was a 16 per cent drop in the number of firearms offences in the United Kingdom in 2006 compared with the previous year, according to figures from Britain’s Home Office. Injuries related to gun crimes also fell while fatalities rose slightly.
Police in London also reported an 11 per cent decrease in gun crime in the metropolitan London area during the same period.”
Thank you…
The following site provides some interesting detail about what the UK is doing to fight gun crime that the Liberals should take to heart to support the CPC’s fight on crime including sentencing.
Van…
Seems it might not be the Liberals Van….
C-10 (firearms)
First Reading 07/05/30
debate June 10 adjourned by Senator Tardif (Conservative)
left sitting 5th on the order paper
C-22 (age)
First Reading 07/05/28
debate May 29 adjourned by Senator Tardif (Conservative)
debate May 20 adjourned by Senator Tardif (Conservative)
debate June 19 adjourned by Senator Cools (Conservative)
Second Reading 07/06/20 (two days ago)
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/printable/2877/
This one is for you Van…we can all find one to validate our point.
Thanks for the useful contribution to our discussion. Do they know what you are doing on office time there at DND in Ottawa? And what is it about me that makes you feel so threatened? — Garth
By JamesHalifax on 07.25.07 1:34 pm
That is obvious, you are truthful Garth and this gentleman isn’t used to hearing the truth, wonder what party he supports…LMAO!
Garth:
Speaking of Bob Rae, please let me know where Bob Rae stands on the income trust issue, I would ask him myself but he has failed to attend any of the Toronto area (where he lives) Liberal Town Hall meetings on income trusts, including the John McCallum Town Hall in downtown Toronto and the one that you yourself spoke at recently in Flaherty’s home riding of Whitby a few weeks ago. Both of these town halls were well attended by a large number of Liberal MPs and candidates including Ken Dryden (who was at both events) John McCallum (at both) Bill Graham (Bob Rae’s own prospective riding) Paul Szabo (at both) John McKay (at both) Derek Lee ( GTA Caucus Chair, at both) and many others including Carolyn Bennett, Jim Peterson, Senator Jerry Grafstein, Albina Guarnieri, Bonnie Brown, and Dan McTeague.
The source of my interest in where Bob Rae stands on this issue, which I understand will be a Liberal Party election issue, stems from the fact that his brother John works as an EVP for Power Corporation and provided his brother Bob with a $750,000 loan to fund Bob’s Liberal leadership campaign. All of that is well and fine. My concern however is that John Rae’s long time boss is an ardent proponent of killing income trusts. Not for the good of the country mind you (since there is no good to be had) but rather for the good of his bottom line, since the success of income trusts had seriously eroded the demand for life annuities and deferred life annuities which is a main stay part of Power’s major investment in life insurance companies, Great West Life and London Life.
I was very heartened to see Stephane Dion win your party’s leadership, as it represented a potential changing of the Liberal guard who previously had been inextricably linked to Power Corporation. I have not been disappointed. Stephane has proven himself to be a person of sound reason and integrity with the broader interests of Canadians guiding his decisions and policy positions. We all know where Power Corporation stands on income trusts. The question I have is where does Bob Rae stand? Please let me know, as it will save me the trouble of attending one of his pep rallies. I’m not much for rah rah, just sound policies that serve the broad interests of Canadian society. Here’s an account from the Globe of November 2, 2006 on the position of Power Corporation on why its good to have Canadian lose $35 billion of their life savings and an important investment choice well suited for retirement in order to support other dubious end purposes:
“High-profile directors and CEOs, meanwhile, had approached Mr. Flaherty personally to express their concerns: Many felt they were being pressed into trusts because of their duty to maximize shareholder value, despite their misgivings about the structure. Paul Desmarais Jr., the well-connected chairman of Power Corp. of Canada, even railed against trusts in a conversation with Prime Minister Stephen Harper during a trip to Mexico, and told him he should act quickly to stop the raft of conversions, according to sources.â€
Thank you.
Rae was considered the potential Bill Clinton of the Canadian political scene –Garth
Does that mean Rae wouldn’t have signed the Kyoto Protocol either?
SLg. Perhaps you can explain why the Liberals voted against C10 on the third reading. Even Garth Turner voted against the Bill. The recorded vote is very near the bottom of the following page; http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Pub=Hansard&Doc=159&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1
The fact is that the Liberals did not want this bill passed or they would have supported it. The fact is they didn’t because they felt the mandatory minimum sentences in the bill were to harsh which brings me back to my original post about the Liberals learning something from the Brits about mandatory sentences.
To vote against this get tough crime bill, which was watered down in committee by guess who, was a dumb move on part of the Liberals and I can understand why some people believe Harper when he says that the Liberals are soft on crime and is going to come back and bite the Liberals in the ass come election time especially with all the gun shootings going on of late. Severe prison time for gun crimes will go a lot further that a total gun be would do but I am at a loss in how we can convince our judges without severe minimum sentencing.
Liberals offered to pass this legislation as part of a package of get-tough actions, and Conservatives refused. Check it out. — Garth
Oops sorry my last message should have been addressed to PJW.
The loony left has always favoured criminals over victims. Liberals invented ‘house arrest’ then let it stand for violent crimes against children. Only in Canada could you find a child molester/porner living at home with no jail time.
Even so, with the crime bills, the Liberals and NDP are ‘worried’ about the offenders with nary a thought to what the victim have endured and will continue to have to live with for the rest of their lives.
Here’s a sneak peek at what the NDP & Liberals think:
For example, she says that the Conservatives have overreached in their proposals. She points to the mandatory minimum sentences for violent crimes contained in Bill C-10.
“They go too far, the sentences are always too high,” she said.
The bill is still in the House and has been referred to committee after second reading. The committee will hear evidence over the next two months.
The NDP says it will seek “significant” amendments on Bill C-10.
“I have to make it very clear that we have severe reservations about the adequacy of the bill in combating the specific problem of the use of illegal guns in crimes,” the NDP’s Joe Comartin said during a debate on the bill.
On the dangerous offender bill, C-27, opposition parties have concerns over the reserve onus that makes repeat violent criminals prove they are not dangerous. The bill has not yet made its way to second reading.
Barnes says that one part of that bill on peace bonds is worth investigating and she would have preferred if it had been separated from C-27.
Even bills that are close to being passed have not escaped the hands of the opposition. Justice Minister Vic Toews said that Bill C-9, which clamped down on the use of conditional sentences, was “gutted” so that it would apply only to serious violent crimes. Barnes points to this bill as how the government is using a “sledgehammer” approach to the issue, when only a “scalpel,” or fine-tuning, is needed.
***In other words, let’s just continue to slap these animals on the wrist, after all, some had bad childhoods. Forget the victims. THAT my friends is why Mr. Harper is saying PASS IT ALL AS IS OR GO F… YOURSELVES. L
Harper when he says that the Liberals are soft on crime and is going to come back and bite the Liberals in the ass come election time especially with all the gun shootings going on of late.
Probably not as bad as the body bags coming back from Afghanistan are going to bite Harper especially when some of the Van Doos go down!
The fact remains Garth, the Liberals voted against the measure.Check it out. Oh yeah, I forgot you were there and voted against the bill.
If you had said watered down measures I would agree with you Garth. So lets cut the spin BS. Ok, because your feeble attempt of hiding the fact that the Liberals voted against the bill will not wash. The part that disturbs me the most is that you would have voted for the bill if you had been a CPC. Get it now, Garth.
Had I been a member of the Harper Party I’d be forced to vote for any and every bill put forth by the government, or be kicked out. So much for representing the people of Canada. — Garth
PJW,
The mission is changing in August so your comment about VanDoo’s coming home in body bags is premature. From your comments it seems Liberals will grasp at anything to increase their popularity in Quebec. Besides it may hurt Harper in Quebec but it sure the hell ain’t going to help Dion either. The only party likely to gain is the Bloc.Is that what you really want FJW? But, we will see won’t we.
Garth wrote.
>Had I been a member of the Harper Party >I’d be forced to vote for any and every >bill put forth by the government, or be >kicked out. So much for representing the >people of Canada.
Ok, Garth. What bills did you vote for that your leader Dion voted against? Go ahead enlighten me. I am telling you that would be kicked out of the Liberal party if you voted against Dion’s wishes. So please don’t give me that representing the people bullshit about the CPC because Dion and the Liberals has done the exact same thing to one of their own.
I have not been told how to vote once by the Lib leadership. I was told how to vote every time by the Cons. — Garth
PJW,
Probably not as bad as the body bags coming back from Afghanistan are going to bite Harper especially when some of the Van Doos go down!
The soldiers in Afghanistan volunteered to be there, the Liberals put them there, they know the risks and a majority want to serve there to make it a better place. The 10 year olds in Toronto that get caught in crossfire or the teenaged boys in SK and MB don’t have the luxury of chosing their own fates when these criminals attack them.
The soldiers in Afghanistan volunteered to be there, the Liberals put them there, they know the risks and a majority want to serve there to make it a better place. The 10 year olds in Toronto that get caught in crossfire or the teenaged boys in SK and MB don’t have the luxury of chosing their own fates when these criminals attack them.
By GGF on 07.25.07 6:05 pm
Good point! But what does that have to do with a politician getting their ass bit?
Probably not as bad as the body bags coming back from Afghanistan are going to bite Harper especially when some of the Van Doos go down!
By pjw on 07.25.07 4:46 pm
Sounds to me like this is what you are wishing for pjw.
Remember how the liberals and yourself included twisted around what Harper said about MP Bain’s father-in-law. Just to refresh your memory here is what Harper said.
“I am not surprised, given what I am reading in the Vancouver Sun today, when I read this how the Liberal party makes decisions. The Vancouver Sun has learned that the father-in-law of the member of Parliament for Mississauga- Brampton …”
Not a bit worse than your comment pjw. Are you wishing for more Canadian deaths in Afghanistan to further a liberal cause? This type of comment is shameful and uncalled for.
Sean Maguire: If Harper was really that desperate to get Bob Rae into Parliament, would he not have called the by-election immediately after the seat became available, and early enough not to really conflict with the Ontario election?
Garth: Did you read the word ‘desperate’ anywhere?
Sean: Here is what you said in your post: “The plan is to facilitate a Rae victory in Toronto Centre, get Bob Rae into the House and have Stephane Dion sitting smack in the middle of the two guys from whom he snatched victory.”
Fair enough, the word desperate is not there. I will rephrase my question:
If Harper was really that interested in facilitating a victory for Bob Rae and for him to get into Parliament, would he not have called the by-election immediately after the seat became available (i.e. now), early enough not to really conflict with the Ontario election?
It’s been only three weeks since the MP resigned. No by-election is called that fast. In addition, PMSH would not single out just one, when several are in the offing. You have no point. — Garth
The mission is changing in August so your comment about VanDoo’s coming home in body bags is premature. From your comments it seems Liberals will grasp at anything to increase their popularity in Quebec. Besides it may hurt Harper in Quebec but it sure the hell ain’t going to help Dion either. The only party likely to gain is the Bloc.Is that what you really want FJW? But, we will see won’t we.
By Van on 07.25.07 5:40 pm
Why would the Liberals grasp at anything based on my comments…Are you assuming I am a Liberal? If so, you are wrong unless Liberals voted CPC in the last election. I sure regret that decision and I won’t make that mistake again. I assumed when a man campaigned on ethics and accountability, we might see some especially after the other band of thieves had raided the candy store. Honestly, he is the most arrogant, unaccountable and sleasy Prime Minister in my lifetime which goes back to voting for the first time in the late 50s.
I will vote independent from now on or for the candidate in my riding who most fits that bill, right now it is Garth!
By the way, how is the mission changing?
Hey Tom,
Canada is in existence at the whim of the provinces. It was established as a collective of provinces, and those ae recognized in the constitution. The country is paramount regarding some issues (defence, international trade, etc). For most other things the provinces prevail.
The problem with this country is that people like yourself don’t understand how this country operates and then try to make policies for all of the country that are impractical/unnecessary/not helpful for many parts of it.
Ed the Hun
Tom:
You said:
“Many of the Liberal policies that were never implemented under the Martin government because of Harper such as the Kelowna Accord, and the national day care program were excellent ideas that the country sorely needs. My hope is that the “Dion team†will bring a host of fresh ideas to move this great country forward.
Harper has never believed in, or supported, the notion of a national government taking charge of Canada. All you have to do is look at his writings over the years. This is the guy that wanted to build a ‘firewall’ around Alberta.”
Who says a ‘national daycare program’ is required? You? Dion? If you ask Albertans’ they have their own program that is in place (provincial subsidies to families/parents who require daycare – on a required basis (income based).
It is because of comments like yours that many in this country think that liberals are not worthy to occupy power in Ottawa.
Some things are PROVINCIAL responsibilities — not Ottawa’s!
Why shouldn’t Alberta have its own Pension plan (Quebec does – and with the youngest population in Canada, it would greatly lessen the burden on Albertan taxpayers to have more workers available to pay for the fewer retired), collect its own taxes? If Quebec can do it, so can Alberta. Or Ontario, or whomever. Do they have to? Nope, but if they want to, why not? I think the Alberta firewall is a great idea and many Albertans agree. In fact, given the red Premier we currently have, there is a movement to the right of the current PC party to start a new party (time to replace them, with another new party – happens every 30 years or so in Alberta). Can you say Alberta Alliance? Or Wild Rose Party? The general theme is to establish Alberta-based programs, including its own pension plan, and maintain a strict delineation of responsibilities between Alberta and Ottawa.
Ed the Hun
The loony left has always favoured criminals over victims.
Even so, with the crime bills, the Liberals and NDP are ‘worried’ about the offenders with nary a thought to what the victim have endured and will continue to have to live with for the rest of their lives.
Angry Leasa…statements like these, where you categorize (and demonize) people based on the party they support, reduce your credibility considerably. Do you actually believe people not of your “ilk” do not care about victims? Give your head a shake.
I have not been told how to vote once by the Lib leadership. I was told how to vote every time by the Cons. — Garth
Oh come off it Garth, do you think we are so stupid as to swallow that line of hogwash?
You know exactly how to vote as a Liberal because if you went against the Liberals you would find yourself out on your arse out in the cold again, and the NDP or BQ certainly don’t want you.
Either clarify your statement or withdraw it.
The statement is true. — Garth
PJW,
Nobody, and that means nobody was as arrogant as Turdeau. Come on.
Ed the Hun
Ed the Hun….
Having travelled throughout Canada extensively on business I certainly understand that folks in Alberta think very differently than the rest of the country. That’s why you’re the only province to almost always send a complete slate of Conservatives to Ottawa.
It always amuses me how short the memories are in Alberta. Truth is you folks wouldn’t have a thriving oil industry if it wasn’t for the Federal government building the TransCanada pipeline and forcing the rest of the country to pay higher-than-world-price for oil and gas to subsidize the Alberta oil biz for many decades. I continually hear folks from Alberta bitch even now about the National Energy Policy. One of the most hated programs ever invented if you listen to Albertans. When I ask them to explain what the policy was actually about and why Peter Lougheed the Alberta Premier at the time supported it…none have an answer other than to vent their emotions.
The ‘clear delineation’ of provincial and federal powers was constructed over 100 years ago when the world was a much different place. To think that any country can effectively compete and grow without focused national policies and strategies is simply naive and simplistic. It’s 2007, not 1867. The needs of a country are a bit different now.
I have not been told how to vote once by the Lib leadership. I was told how to vote every time by the Cons. — Garth
Oh come off it Garth, do you think we are so stupid as to swallow that line of hogwash?
You know exactly how to vote as a Liberal because if you went against the Liberals you would find yourself out on your arse out in the cold again, and the NDP or BQ certainly don’t want you.
Either clarify your statement or withdraw it.
The statement is true. — Garth
By Allan on 07.25.07 9:06 pm
Fair enough, but there is “true” and there is “true”.
The Liberal leadership obviously told you to vote as you please, but once you go against party line your out on your butt.
The Conservative leadership told you how to vote because they didn’t trust you.
True ??
Then they didn’t trust the other 122 MPs who were also told. Leadership is about inspiring people to follow you, not threatening them if they do not. Mr. Harper is not a leader. — Garth
Oh come off it Garth, do you think we are so stupid as to swallow that line of hogwash?
You know exactly how to vote as a Liberal because if you went against the Liberals you would find yourself out on your arse out in the cold again, and the NDP or BQ certainly don’t want you.
Either clarify your statement or withdraw it.
The statement is true. — Garth
By Allan on 07.25.07 9:06 pm
Allen, who the hell do you think you are ordering Garth to clarify his statement or withdraw it? You could have at least said please. Garth should just tell you to go jump off a 100 ft. cliff. Do you honestly think people are that stupid to swallow your line of bull s***t? Are you phonies feeling a little threated right about now? By the way, are you a backbencher scared s**tless for your job? Sure looks like it to me.
Not a bit worse than your comment pjw. Are you wishing for more Canadian deaths in Afghanistan to further a liberal cause? This type of comment is shameful and uncalled for.
By THE SHADOW KNOWS on 07.25.07 6:33 pm
You obviously can’t read or comprehend, take the comment back to it’s origin!
While you are at it, try not to make to many assumptions since you are making a complete — of yourself.
PJW,
But what does that have to do with a politician getting their ass bit?
If the Liberals put them there, and the Conservatives bring them home, who will get bit? Probably both. The Bloc will profit from this.
My fingers were not keeping up with my thoughts in a previous post. Canadians have not paid ‘higher than world price’ for oil….my thought was ‘given that there was no increase in production costs, Canadians paid higher than necessary costs when compared to world price.’
Before Ed the Hun jumps on me again I would like to explain my position further in terms of the archaic nature of the federal/provincial jurisdiction issue.
It is important to remember that when these jurisdictions were created Canada had been a British colony for hundreds of years. Like all British colonies, their purpose in the eyes of their British masters was to provide a cheap source of raw materials to feed British industry. Even back then, it was obvious that true wealth is created by adding value to raw materials by turning them into finished products. It was from this legacy that jurisdictional decisions were made, with the provinces trying to defend their historic source of income as ‘hewers of wood and miners of rocks’. Today this is a terribly outdated view of economic development and one that successive Alberta and other provincial governments have failed to grasp.
From Trudeau and Our Times by Stephen Clarkson and Christina McCall….
“Oil and natural gas were two of the rich store staples Canadians had treated with reckless extravagance through ignorance of their potential importance to the country’s long-term development. Petroleum had been discovered in elephantine proportions in Alberta in 1947 as a direct response to the U.S. Cold War strategy. Washington’s concern for a secure supply of raw materials in the face of the communist threat had led it to offer American transnational oil companies generous tax write-offs for exploration costs abroad. Since Canada was politically reliable and geographically accessible, U.S. corporations focused their prospecting efforts for several years on the Western Canada Sedimentary Basin, most of which lay within Alberta’s boundaries.
The provincial government of the day, a right-wing Social Credit administration rooted in the funny-money populism brought to Alberta by waves of American homesteaders from the prairie states to the south, was left to manage its burgeoing oil patch without significant federal involvement. As a result, petroleum was the most Americanized sector of the Canadian economy next to the auto industry.”
All of this leads to the fact that rather than manage Canada’s oil reserves strategically and build a pipeline as far as Montreal the Conservative government at the time under Diefenbacker used the Borden royal commission to support the U.S. strategic goal of keeeping Canada from building an integrated market on east-west lines. This of course, would have allowed Canada to further develop related industries on a national basis. Diefenbaker also sold Canada’s interests out when he bowed to U.S. interests and cancelled the Avro Arrow, one of the most innovative aircraft of its day.
The Trudeau government saw the petroleum industry as an important strategic asset, and one that the country’s national interests had been discounted by a series of parochial Alberta provincial governments. From what I have read the real intent of the National Energy Program was to ‘Canadianize” the industry so it could be better focused to serve national, AND Alberta interests. In Lalonde’s view (the energy minister at the time), it had been run in such a way that any increases in the world price of oil would create a huge transfer of wealth from Canadian taxpayers and consumers to foreign-owned producers. After years of haggling over pricing issues etc. Peter Lougheed finally signed an agreement with the Federal government on September 1, 1981 which he described as a “balanced agreement”. In essence the agreement would give both the Alberta and Federal governments an expanded share of oil revenues at the expense of the once all-powerful oil companies. the oil companies were obivously upset because neither the Feds or the Alberta Tories at the time included them in the negotiations, since both levels of government had realized that oil companies had been making windfall, unjustifed profits for years. The proof of that is the fact that the oil industry was able to finance its growth from its cash flow…something that is only a pipe dream for virtually any other industry. The agreement would have worked well for both levels of government and would have allowed Canada to begin to assert its sovereignity over a key strategic asset…the key point in the agreement was the assumption that oil prices had to keep rising for the new formula to work. Oil prices crashed not too long after and the entire program unraveled. In my view, the intent to create a program to manage a key strategic asset like oil and gas reserves was well founded.
In terms of the strategic management and development of a country, Canada needs to get past our history of being a ‘colony’ or a ‘branch plant’.
Since 1947 successive provincial governments in Alberta have mismanaged the opportunities afforded the province from its oil and gas reserves by taking a narrow view and simply shipping crude southbound. Huge opportunities to develop an integrated petro-chemical industry have not been fully realized, nor have the Alberta provincial governments over the past 60 years done enough to build a ‘value-added’ economy around its oil and gas reserves. How much further ahead would the province and the country be if Alberta provincial governments had invested heavily in refining technology for example, and rather than simply ship raw materials south, it was shipping only fully refined products. I think the economic impact would have been huge…and it has been squandered by politicians in Alberta taking the typical parochial view that most provinces take.
That’s precisely why we need a strong, central government in this country to chart an integrated strategy for the future. Not a piecemeal, parochial patchwork like we have today.
For Canada to capture its potential we need a national energy policy that encompasses all energy sources including emerging technologies. We need to be on the forefront of wind, solar, nuclear etc. so as the world’s supply of crude disappears we will be positioned to be self sustaining from an energy standpoint. We need a national water conservation strategy. We need to identify primary strategic industries like steel manufacturing and bring them into a national industrial strategy, and ensure that Canadian ownership is maintained…or in many cases is re-established.
When we look at emerging economic powers like China it is very simplistic to think that these economic transformations have happened overnight, or that these kinds of successes are because of ‘cheap labour’ alone. China, for example, has been making huge infrastructure investments for over 20 years to prepare itself for industrialization. Roads, bridges, rail lines were all built years ago and at the end of many of them was vacant land. The government had the foresight to build the infrastructure in advance of setting up factories. The Chinese have made huge investments in higher education because they recognize that the intellectual capacity of their population can be developed into a strategic asset.
What are we doing? Under the Harper government we are doing nothing except retreating back into a jurisdictional mindset from 1867 that is not appropriate today. We have not seen much of Dion’s vision yet. I hope we see an integrated strategy that recognizes the strategic assets of this great country, identifies the ‘new’ economies of the future that are built on renewable resources and renewable sources of energy, invests in our intellectual capital through education and tax incentives that stimulate and reward innovation.
We need a government that can see what 2067 will look like…not be mired in the quagmire of 1867 jurisdictional decisions like Harper and his cronies.
PJW wrote.
>By the way, how is the mission changing?
There is to less emphasis on the active combative role and more on reconstruction and training of Afghani’s police and army.. Harper announced this last week or the week before.
Grath wrote.
>I have not been told how to vote once by the Lib >leadership. I was told how to vote every time by >the Cons. — Garth
ROFL, good try at spin but you didn’t answer the question. So I will ask it again. Now read it slowly so you get it.
here it is again.
What bills did you vote for that your leader Dion voted against?
All it takes Garth to answer that question is a number nothing more or nothing less. Here I wll help you and give you a multi choice answers to make it easier for you. Was it one, two three or none.
Cheers.
Don’t know, and don’t care. I vote as I wish to vote, and in the best interests of my constituents. This is a service I could not give the people of Halton, when I was a Conservative and all my votes were whipped. You are tedious, by the way. This is my last response to you. — Garth
>Mr. Harper is not a leader. — Garth
48% of the public disagree with your opinion. They sure don’t think much of Dion’s leadership.;-)
Not a bit worse than your comment pjw. Are you wishing for more Canadian deaths in Afghanistan to further a liberal cause? This type of comment is shameful and uncalled for.
By THE SHADOW KNOWS on 07.25.07 6:33 pm
You obviously can’t read or comprehend, take the comment back to it’s origin!
While you are at it, try not to make to many assumptions since you are making a complete — of yourself.
By pjw on 07.26.07 10:43 am
Here is the complete quote by Prime Minister Harper. You are the one making a complete ___ of yourself.
“I am not surprised, given what I am reading in the Vancouver Sun today, when I read this how the Liberal party makes decisions. The Vancouver Sun has learned that the father-in-law of the member of Parliament for Mississauga- Brampton …”
The rest of the exchange was drowned out by a howl of Liberal outrage followed by a dozen demands for an apology over what was clearly an inference more than an accusation.
Now pjw does this satisfy you or are you now the dumb …??? I still think you were out of line with the body bag remarks and should be ashamed of yourself and apologize.
There is to less emphasis on the active combative role and more on reconstruction and training of Afghani’s police and army.. Harper announced this last week or the week before.
By van on 07.26.07 11:38 am
I am very happy to hear that, personally I like the idea of Canada withdrawing from all combat and becoming a peacekeeping and reconstuctive force in any conflict in the world. Thanks for the info, I must have been on vacation when Mr. Harper made that announcement. the good thing about that is we are out in 2009 then!
By Tom on 07.26.07 11:34 am
Thank you, Tom, for a very informative post.
I agree completely that Canada needs a strong central govt. and that we need to work together as a country in order to prosper. Time to act like a country rather than 10 former colonies bickering amongst themselves.
PJW,
What exactly do you think ‘peacekeeping’ is? Sitting around a campfire singing kumbaya? Combat troops support security in the country. Without security, there is little point in reconstructing. Once you leave, the Taliban come in and destroy what you built. Even Amnesty International says wrt Afghanistan “Insecurity undermined the rule of law and created a climate of impunity.” So we should pull out and let them fend for themselves?
So we should pull out and let them fend for themselves?
By GGF on 07.26.07 2:38 pm
No we should honour the commitment we made until the date we agreed to, then we should pull out and come home and change public policy so we don’t ever put ourselves in that position again. We should revert to the policies of Lester Pearson and become a nation of peacekeepers and never again throw in our lot with those who like to spread democracy with bombs. The battle in Afghanistan was supposed to root out Bin Laden who, by the way, is laughing his — off as he sits in Pakistan and sends out the death squads to pick off our soldiers. We aren’t allowed to go get him because he lives in sanctuary thanks to an agreement between GWB and the leader of Pakistan. So much for security, if you like to see our troops act as sitting ducks, that is fine but I don’t. At least under Pearson we were a respected country, that sure has changed now, we are viewed a Bushie’s minions. That is not fair to those who put their lives on the line every day.
So I suggest one of two things, either get serious about this mission which means go in and get Bin Laden and his merry band of terrorists or come home on the due date and learn to promote peace rather than war.
Now pjw does this satisfy you or are you now the dumb …??? I still think you were out of line with the body bag remarks and should be ashamed of yourself and apologize.
By THE SHADOW KNOWS on 07.26.07 12:26 pm
Read the context of the quote you keep throwing back…then you may apologize!
>Mr. Harper is not a leader. — Garth
48% of the public disagree with your opinion. They sure don’t think much of Dion’s leadership.;-)
By van on 07.26.07 11:54 am
I guess there is no point in having any more elections then, let’s just annoint him as Queen…LMAO….does it matter how many agree with one’s opinion, does it become invalid at 51%…LMAO
PJW wrote.
>I would like to see (Canadian military)becoming a >peacekeeping and reconstuctive force in any >conflict in the world.
That is all nice to hope for but the reality is that we haven’t had any peace to keep since 1989.
First of all you can’t peace keep a conflict as there must be a peace to keep first. The fact is that our military hasn’t been on a peace keeping mission since 1989. That is 18 years ago. Ever since then we have been on peace making missions or in war type missions ad it appears that this will; continue for a good number of years in the future and as long as we are active members of NATO and the UN.
Tom.
You can have a strong central government without invading provincial juridictions or responsibilities. This hasn’t been the case in the past and as a result we have had many provincial-federal dissagreeements over the years.
Part of being Canada and follwing the Charter and federal and provincial juridictions. The federal governments of the past have been over stepping their authority by interferring in provincial jurisdictions.
If the federal governmnet wants to obtain control of a provincial juridiction whether it be health, education, minerals or whatever then they must amend the constitution. This wasn’t being done. The unfortunate thing for them is that will never happen because they just won’t get the support and that is one reason why successive governmnets are so reluctant to amend the constitution. Itr would also open up a can of worms but it must happen one day or we won’t have a Canada or a constitution to amend. The only way it will happen is that federal and provincial leaders must froget about their own power and start thinking what is good for all Canadians.
By THE SHADOW KNOWS on 07.26.07 12:26 pm
Read the context of the quote you keep throwing back…then you may apologize!
By pjw on 07.26.07 4:18 pm
Now I get it. since you once said that you have been voting since the 1950’s your eyes are just not seeing as well as they used to. Maybe it is time for a new pair of glasses!!! Just a thought.
Now I get it. since you once said that you have been voting since the 1950’s your eyes are just not seeing as well as they used to. Maybe it is time for a new pair of glasses!!! Just a thought.
By THE SHADOW KNOWS on 07.26.07 6:46 pm
I am glad you finally got it….there are none so blind as those who will not see…all you had to do was look! Have a nice evening Shadow
PJW,
No we should honour the commitment we made until the date we agreed to, then we should pull out and come home and change public policy so we don’t ever put ourselves in that position again.
Yeah, defending democracy is a real drag. You know, getting other countries to allow women to vote, getting them to stop stoning their women, fighting for human rights. We should just love the despots around the world and they’ll eventually see the error of their ways.
Hmmh, Garth! It looks like the Tories had a change of heart after all. Today they blasted Rae for the first time. See: http://www.conservative.ca/EN/2874/84876 in reply to http://www.bobrae.ca/At+the+whim+of+the+Prince. This might yet get interesting!