Update to original post below
What had its public genesis on YouTube; what so many people came to see as self-evident; what most major MSM outlets ignored; what many posters to this blog scoffed at and mocked; and what is so chilling, has tonight been confirmed. Canadian police officers infiltrated the anti-SPP protest in Montebello this week as masked, rock-wieding agitators.
The video here begs the question of what mischief these agents provocateurs would have created, and what mayhem might have ensued, if they had not been stopped by other protestors who feared violence. It also makes us wonder, in a multi-agency and co-ordinated police event, months in the planning and execution at the summit, if it was even possible for a rogue police acton to occur.
Could one of the police forces, in this case the SQ, have acted alone in this stunning attempted deception? How dangerous was it to plant agitators in the middle of an explosive demonstration outside the building where heads of state were meeting? Would such a plan have required political approval, or advance knowledge by the PMO, for example? Or the security minister, Stockwell Day?
Tonight the SQ is saying its undercover thugs were only there to identify trouble-makers. But one wonders what trouble they themselves were planning, rock in hand and faces masked, and what discredit they might have brought upon the legitimate and legal protesters in Montebello.
I’m sure of two things right now: The Internet vid and the reaction it engendered has strengthened us, as it exposes and challenges clumsy hamhanded attempts to manipulate and control citizens.
And, second, any leader or politician among us unappalled at this assault on civil liberties and unready to find ways to prevent it again might as well be wearing a bandana and brandishing a stone.
Original post:
The video above has already been widely promoted and much viewed. I place it here as a matter of record, since there have been tens of thousands of words on the SPP conflab in Montebello already posted on this site. Perhaps in time the images above will become more potent, or perhaps less so. We need facts to know what to think.
On the surface, it would appear credible the three masked men, one of whom seemed to be wearing police-issue boots, were not legitimate protesters. They were confronted by others in opposition to SPP, who were committed to a peaceful event. You will hear demands to put down a rock and unmask themselves. The three do not comply, instead heading directly into the police line, where they are restrained, then led away.
Yesterday the Council of Canadians and others alleged these men to be police agents planted in the crowd to foment violence. That might have made it necessary for the police to move in, and for the protesters to be relegated to hoodlum status. The charge has been made that such tactics, if they existed, could have been ordered by the PMO.
That may be a grand conspiracy theory. It might be spin and political mud-slinging. But we know nothing with clarity right now.
Except, this has all the appearance of an incident, and a story, unconcluded.
Stockwell Day refuses to call an enquiry: Here.
341 comments ↓
Garth,
At 2:48 timecode the tallest red haired one looks at the police, and then walks calmly into them. He knew them, and I think they know him as well. His mannerisms, left hand on his belt earlier is a stance I have seen law enforcement officers take. It is a neutral stance but allows for action if necessary.
The entire thing is an atrocity. The older people were trying to [prevent a problem, and these clowns were deliberately starting one.
The video does show their faces clearly at some points. I recommend you freeze frame those images and put them up. Someone will ID them.
It is far damn sure the police will not tell the truth. They may even be Americans brought in to stir things up. The shoirtest one in the baseball cap looks aboriginal, perhaps Hispanic? They sure did not want to be revealed, that is a definite. I bet they were not counting on the old farts resisting them either. We old farts have a sense of right and wrong, which is lost on too many nowadays.
It might be anyone of what you stated.But one of these guys facecoverings was off long enough to get a good enough view of his face.Maybe if someone recognizes it they will come forward.
Since they seem to have disappeared, they could have been contracted out, or they weren’t our guys in the first place. This story has legs for sure.
Garth, on an entirely different matter, can you explain something for me. The USians – “As my colleague Scott Paul has written on numerous occasions (here and here and here), it is important for the U.S. Senate to ratify the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea.
This morning, The Christian Science Monitor – a premier newspaper, especially when it comes to covering global issues and U.S. foreign policy – had an excellent editorial Scramble for the Arctic. ”
http://globalsolutions.org/blog/
Do we have an equivalent?
This has to be your lowest point to date. This is not just your typical smear. It is outright slander. Unsubstantiated mythical nonsense that is unworthy of print.
You are either a very desparate man or so full of vile against those who kicked you out.
Why in heaven’s name would the PMO’s office plant spies in a demonstration group that appears at all of these events. When I hear what many of these people actually think – That alone cause them to lose much of their credibility.
You can criticize the PM for being mean spirited etc etc but you are an example of someone who takes every rumour, obsure thought,negative idea or destructive assumption to knife your opponents.
After today I will never visit this site again!
That’s a good Conservative response. BTW, I did not shoot the video, or make allegations. This is information in the public domain, and it needs to be cleared up. That should not be too tough for the police involved to do. — Garth
Its got to be PMSH who came up with this diabolical plan to send in covert agents to insight a riot. He’s looking at the polls and thinks this would help.
Garth, you lack less and less credibility each day.
BTW, I have black vibram soled boots. Maybe it was me.
nothing like the sound of jack-boots in the Fall.
Hilarious stuff. The protestors can’t even get organized. It’s our LINE! It’s our LINE. Sounds like a true unionist. What I do see is the unionist assaulting the guys.
Why do some of these protestors feel the need to have their faces covered?
I am dubious about the claim that these potential provocateurs would have come from the police. On the other hand, it would be totally in character for them to be members of the new Conservative Party. The use of these goons has been a strategy of elements the new party ever since it was proposed when they were sent out to intimidate those opposed to the merger.
The police would protect the identity of these individuals because of political sensitivity. It would be a huge embarassment for the Prime Minister if these were party members tasked with undermining the points raised by the protestors.
The protestors find it politically more acceptable to the media to place all of the blame on police and none on the political masters. If they blamed political opponents they would be branded as nut cases.
I have similer work boots but was no were near Montabello. Hopefully no one will accuse me of being a police officer. Good to know that our country lacks so little problems for a federal politician to take the time to post a new found conspiracy.
After today I will never visit this site again!
By Ken on 08.23.07 12:15 pm
Well, if we have one less person making immature statements around here, then the posting was certainly worth it.
I normally don’t buy into conspiracy theories at all, but this one has my interest.
This must be the first time in history that an alleged protestor with a rock in his hand has worn police style shoes and walked right up to, and amongst them, with a rock in his hand and then was very calmly handcuffed.
Did the PMO do this… I highly doubt it. They would want to keep their deniability card. However, I will be curious to see how this unfolds.
Gee Ken. Did you read the the news paper? This has been reported and explained in the open. How can you clam Garth is trying to Smear? He is looking for answers and its seems very likely we won’t get them from the government.
This totally smacks of illegal action.
I think Bill-Muskoka is right on. There were mumblings prior regarding the idea the US troops or other agnents would be on Canadian soil to cordon off the area.
since that came out a lot, they responded that no US or foreign troops would be involved. It seems pretty clear that the smear campaign is aimed at anyone who disagrees with the current administration(s). How better to do that than to infiltrate.
Now the sheeple seeing the violence will think the protests are evil punks. Sheeple are those that think everything is fine. Let the government do what it wants so they can get back to the TV show.
Garth, forget about these protestors and half-baked conspiracy theories. Your leader needs help in formulating an updated Kyoto strategy.
Ignoring Kyoto law could bring down Tories …
The Liberals did not return phone calls yesterday to say whether they would be willing to prop up the government after the lack of action on Mr. Rodriguez’s law.
Two things about this incident are quite certain. First is that the security protocols for a summit of this sort would be as tightly managed and highly choreographed as it gets. It is impossible to imagine that any member of the security detail would be given the discretion or latitude to adopt rogue procedures that would allow a peaceful demonstration to morph into a violent one. Therefore the approvals for such a tactic would go very high up within the chain of command. Second, these three alleged demonstrators whose actions were caught on a You Tube video were clearly members of the police force as judging by their mock arrest (as a result of no provocation and to simply allow them to comfortably exit the scene) and the fact that they wore the exact same footwear as the police themselves, as made abundantly obvious by the identical yellow logos on the soul of their boots caught on video.
I wonder how many people were sitting around the boardroom table discussing the use of this tactic for the upcoming Montebello meeting? More to the point, which members of the trilateral security detail thought it would be a good idea to contrive such a set of circumstance that would foment violence among an otherwise peaceful group of protestors? What twisted logic was used as the justification for contriving these circumstances and whose approval was given to implement such a tactic?
That’s a good Conservative response. BTW, I did not shoot the video, or make allegations. This is information in the public domain, and it needs to be cleared up. That should not be too tough for the police involved to do. — Garth
No Conservative here! Your response is typical of your character. It was the inference to the PMO’s office that is ludricous. Frankly I couldn’t care less who those guys are! I get upset when people are unfairly and falsely accused. I would have the same response if it was Dion or Layton.
Your response to me is typical of your scheme to deflect or bite back when the truth gets too close to you.
You can complain and put yourself forward as different all you want but to me you are a mud thrower just like so many of the other politicians. You are not adding to positive change – You are contributing to the lack of civility and ethics in politics.
I thought you were gone. — Garth
You are either a very desparate man or so full of vile against those who kicked you out.
By Ken on 08.23.07 12:15 pm
Evidently you have managed to stir their cup of cantankerous crap again.
Excellent! The storm-troopers (the SS) now realize they are fighting a losing battle, and the sooner they’re gone for good, the better for the rest of us.
Ah, good little CPC operatives, do you need remedial lessons in comprehension?
Thsi is the key phrase that Garth wrote:
“But we know nothing with clarity right now.”
That’s the problem here little-minded Con Kiddies – clarity.
If these guys were cuffed and taken away the cops wopuld have at the very least made identification. It strongly appears that they were no amomng the 4 people we know that were ‘officially’ arrested.
So why aren’t the arresting force (which appear to be SQ from their shoulder insignia) forthcoming with information as to who these three guys are? If they actually were protesters the release of information pertaining to them would put this to rest immediately, would it not?
So why aren’t they forthcoming with the info?
It’s suspicious.
I can also tell you, from experience, that their body language, actions, and reaction when challenged by David Coles all spell out law enforcement types. Don’t believe me? Dave Kirkland, a retired Ottawa police officer who was formerly in charge of overseeing demonstrations for the force, seems to agree. Or is he not a ‘credible’ enough source for you Con-Kiddies?
See: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/08/22/ot-police-070822.html?ref=rss
Why not release the info on these guys and clear it up right away. Unless there’s something that needs to be hidden.
We need ‘clarity’, ‘transparency’ & ‘openness’. Isn’t that what Canada’s Gnu Goobermint ™ was supposed to be all about?
I thought you were gone. — Garth
By Ken on 08.23.07 12:49 pm
After today!!!
The protestors find it politically more acceptable to the media to place all of the blame on police and none on the political masters. If they blamed political opponents they would be branded as nut cases.
By C. B. Innes on 08.23.07 12:27 pm
It’s too late, they’re already been branded as such. Deservedly so, with all their conspiracy theories before the summit.
Garth, you alone have contributed more to my distrust of politicians than anyone.
I can’t beleive I used to support you as principled and ethical.
When people ask me what I hate about Canadian Politics, I tell them about you. Do you even care?
OK, so we should just trust the government? I think a lot of investors and environmentalists and tax-paying families that one already. Bad decision. BTW, are you coming to the TH meeting in Edmonton? — Garth
It must really stick in the craw of some cons, having to excuse or make light of this event…or maybe not.
I can also tell you, from experience, that their body language, actions, and reaction when challenged by David Coles all spell out law enforcement types.
*LOL* I was right a unionist. It would take a unionist to tell someone else where they can and cannot protest. Sounds like a good communist.
Love that neo-Con neo-outrage!
It should not be news that it is common practice for police forces to infiltrate groups and demonstrations to gather information/intelligence. That is why they select people whose physical appearance will fit it, and make them dress the part.
It is not common police practice to try to escalate a demonstration, to act in a manner likely to disclose yourself (as in sidling up to the police line to arrange your extrication by arrest), or to wear items of police clothing (such as boots.)
All in all, a thoroughly undemocratic and unprofessional incident reminiscent of the RCMP barn-burning of another day. It will be investigated fully, but the results will not be aired on grounds of security (read official embarrassment). But take in on faith that the Keystone Kops involved will have their asses kicked unmercifully for having brought discredit on their force and higher echelons.
When people ask me what I hate about Canadian Politics, I tell them about you.
By Truth on 08.23.07 1:12 pm
Got rope?
The State of the Nation
As shown by all the conspiracy theories, and by this incident, the problem is Trust. North Americans don’t trust the media, the police, our financial system, and especially not our politicians.
It’s a deep ranging problem engendered by generations that have grown up in an era of assassinations, wars, political doublespeak and business fraud. A massive change in leadership morality is necessary to reverse this descending spiral.
Consider what our Watchdog Agencies are being accused of:
AEUB spying case spills south of border
Jeff Holubitsky, edmontonjournal.com
The AEUB is the Alberta Energy & Utilities board and they are being accused of using paid private security to infiltrate public hearings and spy on land owners. Now Montana Public Service Commissioner Ken Toole is “concerned that Montana citizens were spied upon.”
Do you remember those Public hearings? The Public had to watch proceedings on closed circuit TV.
It seems to me that even a half-wit would be concerned about this kind of hijinks on the part of police. I find it even more astounding that someone would hold the older guy responsible for anything but trying to keep the peace.I’m looking at you Hogan!
How is this for a condescending aqnd provocative attitude on the part of Stephen Harper. Come to think of it, it kind of reminds me of the same mind set behind George Bush’s “bring em on” comment directed to insurgents in Iraq. It appears these type of “leaders” truly enjoy provoking others. Problem is such an approach is destined to back fire. Just ask George next time your speaking with him.
“Two hundred protesters went nose-to-nose with riot police outside Chateau Montebello’s main gate yesterday afternoon, but while serious violence was avoided, police employed tear gas and pepper spray.
In response, protesters in gas masks, goggles, and balaclavas hurled rocks, tomatoes, and bottles filled with stones at the police.
“I’ve heard it’s nothing,” shouted Prime Minister Stephen Harper over his shoulder to reporters as he waited for his U.S. counterpart. “A couple of hundred? It’s sad.”
by Pecked to Death..
North Americans don’t trust the media, the police, our financial system, and especially not our politicians.
And with good reason.
well said Pecked!!
Garth,
Please help Ken out…he is addicted to the blog, and simply can’t stop posting, even when he said he was.
Hmmmmmmm I bet he is thinking the ‘No one can call me a liar!’ They do not need to though because, as we all know ‘He said one thing and did another!’ LOL
I was spinning the channel last night and came across the press conference on CPAC where Maude Barlow, the main character in the video (the guy with the white hair and beard) who is the head of some union, and one or two others presented this video and made the allegations.
Now, as I recall, one of the reasons they put forward for this press conference was their disatisfaction with the previous press coverage of the demonstration (a different one or later?) where “legitimate” demonstrators did in fact engage the police and as I recall were hurdling billiard balls at security, and shoving against them.
Now, I seem to also recall that the organizers of the Montebello conference had designated a field for protest and video feed inside to be seen, if desired, by the leaders.
The protesters rejected this, I understand, and elected to march to the conference security perimeter to confront police- better visuals for the media, I presume.
Now, there were a lot of allegations thrown in that press conference, so, let’s examine them a bit closer. I don’t know the answers, but I’ll pose a few rhetoriocal questions.
1. Was the demonstration legal, I mean, technically, did the protesters have a permit to take their march from the designated areas to the streets? May be nitpicking here, but it is important when you follow their allegations a bit further.
2. For aguments sake, let’s say it was legal. Notwithstanding that the three “Bazooka Joes” look suspicious, what precisely is their crime? They walked with the protesters and stood out noticeably as “being not one of us.” Are they not allowed to be there?
This was a point the union head made, I recall, as he pointed out that they were not known by the assembled regular activists across Canada. So much for the spontaneity and groundswell of opposition from average Canadians…
3. They were confronted because they carried , what one person in the press conference described as “boulders”.
4. I think a skeptical reporter in the press conference asked the presenters, “well, what exactly did they do, besides the allegation of what the were going to do?” (I am paraphrasing). The white haired guy claimed someone he knows was shoved real hard, but had no evidence. Not surprising to me in a protest march that there may be some shoving going on.
Maude, always quick with the imaginative rhetoric, reminded the audience, that if not for the vigilence of the white haired guy “There would have been bloodshed”.
Here in Canada, we have it so good, it’s a national scandal when a virtual riot doesn’t occur.
Elizabeth May, and the Green Party (sadly) has fully embraced the SPP conspiracy theories, and has also followed lock step again with long time buddy Maude’s lead in a press release:
“This is a blatant assault on our Charter-protected right of peaceful assembly and it cannot just be shrugged off with the bland official denials issued yesterday.
“Sadly, this incident is emblematic of the summit itself and of the entire Security and Prosperity Partnership process – a secret agenda for North American union advanced at meetings held behind closed doors.
“Now we must demand of this whole SPP charade: Take off your masks! Show us who you are! And tell us what you are really doing!”
Where precisely is the “assault”? I don’t see it.
As for the PMO involvement, the extreme left have such a hate-on for Harper, they do themselves no favour by so quickly pointing at him for everything that happens in this world. It lends reasonable people to quit listening to some legitimate points they may have on other matters.
(personally, if I was a betting man, I’d say it was some ill thought out idea by a local enforcement guy. Like the time I was riding on light rail transit and some forty something “dude” came on wearing baggy street clothes and a baseball cap on backwards. I instinctively pulled out my ticket to show him I had paid, the obvious reason he was there, comically,undercover.)
OK folks…Now we are talking! Go Duceppe Go!
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070823/duceppe_afghanistan_070823/20070823?hub=TopStories
Has anyone in the media followed to find out what happened to them?
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.23.07 1:49 pm
well said…
I watched the video and from what I could see those people didn’t look like cops. It looked more like a bunch of guys who thought it might be fun to stir up some trouble at a protest and got called on it. Once everyone ganged up on them they went to the police line for safety. Occam’s razor people!
It seems to me that even a half-wit would be concerned about this kind of hijinks on the part of police. I find it even more astounding that someone would hold the older guy responsible for anything but trying to keep the peace.I’m looking at you Hogan!
By Scot Lowe on 08.23.07 1:33 pm
Look at me all you want Scot. If I was a member of his union, I would be peeved off that the head is not taking care of his members, rather, he is at a protest. I wonder who paid for his little jaunt. The funny thing was Scot, I had no idea who he was, but, I knew he acted like a unionist. Then, Frank gives his name, I do a little search and add union to the search and voila. Found out that I was right on the money.
We need ‘clarity’, ‘transparency’ & ‘openness’. Isn’t that what Canada’s Gnu Goobermint ™ was supposed to be all about?
By Frank Frink on 08.23.07 12:55 pm
Get a life Franky! Who cares who these guys are? Who cares why they were there? I can speculate as well as anyone but for what purpose. You tell me how any political party would have anything to gain by putting masked men in such a protest.
Why do I think people are so caught up in conspiracy theories. Yes there is a great amount of distrust but we are also the generation of fiction. We watch fiction in movies, TV and put more weight on phoney rumours than substantiated truth. More than ever people are not commited to telling the truth nor are we committed to finding out if what we believe is the truth.
OK I have to go. I just saw Elvis walking pass my window!
Why do some of these protestors feel the need to have their faces covered?
By Sean P. Hogan on 08.23.07 12:26 pm
I am told to protect themselves from gas being sprayed.
A hate on for Harper?
No Old Guy, the problem is Harper is a liar, decietful, and arrogant. If that does not bother you, then you obviously have no scruples regarding the actions of people.
Harper’s actions transcend political party lines. They are the actions undeserving of repsect or support by intelligent, civilized, and honest people.
That is something the CRAP trolls around here and elsewhere refuse to acknowledge because they, like Harper, are only interested in gaining power over others.
It’s too late, they’re already been branded as such. Deservedly so, with all their conspiracy theories before the summit.
By Sean P. Hogan on 08.23.07 1:09 pm
Who has branded them pls?
OK I have to go. I just saw Elvis walking pass my window!
By Ken on 08.23.07 2:07 pm
Was he heading over to Heartbreak Hotel? Was he wearing his Blue Suede Shoes? Did he look All Shook Up?
Ken, Don’t be Cruel.
By Scot Lowe on 08.23.07 1:33 pm
That is the reason he comes here Scot!
He is not interested in the truth, if he was he would remain silent until it is known on this issue. No, he has come to discredit anyone who might in the least suggest the CPC isn’t holier than thou. He is critical of others but rarely if ever has any negative to say about the CPC. I would say he is the opposite to me, I am only here to tell people the truth about in unethical, unaccountable untransparent Stephen Harper and I am an independent. I do not support the Liberal party or any for that matter!
“The charge has been made that such tactics, if they existed, could have been ordered by the PMO.”
Indeed the charge has been made, without foundation. Thats what makes you, Garth, a man without integrity and moral character.
When the CBC throws out such innuendo we take it as coming from the source it is and discard it accordingly. When you, a member of parliament, reiterate it as a plausible truth, without any evidence whatsoever, you have fallen to the bottom of the barrel. And dont say black boots and vibram soles point to the PMO.
If, as you suppose, there is some secret conspiracy in the SPP talks, why would the PMO want to draw attention to it by causing riots? Why not just quietly get the deal done.
You are not only your typical smear and fear monger, you aren’t very intelligent either.
A charge is a charge. It is reportable, as are the results of that action. If you indeed know this is “without foundation” then provide evidence. It will be published here, in full, unadulterated. — Garth
Garth,
Please help Ken out…he is addicted to the blog, and simply can’t stop posting, even when he said he was.
Hmmmmmmm I bet he is thinking the ‘No one can call me a liar!’ They do not need to though because, as we all know ‘He said one thing and did another!’ LOL
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.23.07 1:45 pm
Read every word Bill. You missed “after today”. I intentionally put that in because I anticipated the response I would get from Garth and I am riled up enough that I may want to say more today. Assumption and quick to discredit but I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn’t read it carefully.
No lie here!!
something that needs to be hidden.
We need ‘clarity’, ‘transparency’ & ‘openness’. Isn’t that what Canada’s Gnu Goobermint ™ was supposed to be all about?
By Frank Frink on 08.23.07 12:55 pm
Okay smart arse. Now that you have said your ridiculous two cents worth, go get your daily fix from your ultra left wing Daily KOS, the most ultra left wing nut bar in NA.
How many other nut bars did you bring over from the KOS? Are you not familiar with the Lieberman picture a while back? That tells it all about the KOS site and frankly you as well.
Get a life and quit trying to make something out of nothing.
Garth,
This is what makes your actions so disgusting. There is no proof that they were agents and absolutely no proof that the PMO ordered it. But I heard that Chretien, martin and Dion filled their pockets with the 20 million dollars that is still missingfrom Adscam. Of course I have no proof but that doesn’t matter to you does it? Did I hear that your received some of that stolen money to cross over to the Liberals? Of course I have no proof but thats what I heard so it could be true…..
I also heard from reliable sources – Dion – that the Canada can’t meet Kyoto so why is he lying about it now? I also heard from reliable sources that senior Liberals didn’t think Dion was a good enviornment minster – Iggy – Is that true? Can you ask him for me because he won’t return my emails.
Grow up, Garth. Glad to see you where you belong.
I think you just proved everyone’s point. — Garth
Nice assumptions Hogan. But then again, you aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed.
I have never been a member of a Union. Never ever paid a cent of union dues. I’m actually an urban professional.
Here’s you’re project Hogan, prove me wrong!
As for ‘Communist’? WTF? Are we back to teh McCarthy era. Is your next question, “When did I stop beating my wife?”
Can’t deal with the message or the facts so you make assumptions.
You’re pretty funny. Are you 12-years old?
The Stupid! It Burns!
More than ever people are not commited to telling the truth nor are we committed to finding out if what we believe is the truth.
By Ken on 08.23.07 2:07 pm
That is the problem but the solution is not to simply accept the lies. If your take on the incident is correct what is the problem with identifying the three individuals involved?
One of the major concerns with those of us unwilling to believe all the lies out there is the growing secrecy and the attempts to prevent open discourse on issues. There is virtually no way for citizens to make their views known to the national political elite.
Even choices at the ballot box are highly controlled by political elites through the power exercised by the major parties. When you have the NDP working with the Conservatives to try to destroy the ability of independent candidates or candidates for other political parties to seek election you know that the system is moving in the wrong direction.
While these establishment parties feed at the public trough to the tune of millions of dollars they use their control of the system to deny a fair playing field to smaller parties and independents.
Ken…You amaze me. Any rational person would be concerned about police acting as provocateurs. You’re trying to blow conspiracy smoke. How pathetic.
OK folks…Now we are talking! Go Duceppe Go!
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070823/duceppe_afghanistan_070823/20070823?hub=TopStories
By Captain George on 08.23.07 1:51 pm
You are dreaming Captain. Duceppe is like a pit bull without teeth. No one wants an election, least of all any of the opposition. Just the same bring it on.
Just a confirmation, while I think that there needs some clearing up (it did seem way too staged), it should be noted that the “yellow logo on the bottom of the boots” is the Vibram sole logo. I have had 4 or 5 pairs of boots with a Vibram sole for years, and highly recommend them for anyone who does serious hiking.
Garth,
The images I saw show at least two of the three alleged agents provocateurs with identical boots to an arresting riot police officer.
The body language of these guys is so contrived as to be comical!
Garth, you need to spend some time with Dion and explain to him how Parliament works.
In his press conference today, not only did Dion sound weak, but he came across as stupid too, when he revealed that he wrote a letter to Harper, asking him to keep Bill C30 alive after a hypothetical prorogation of Parliament.
Effects of Prorogation
The principal effect of ending a session by prorogation is to terminate business. Members are released from their parliamentary duties until Parliament is next summoned. All unfinished business is dropped from or “dies†on the Order Paper and all committees lose their power to transact business, providing a fresh start for the next session. No committee can sit during a prorogation. Bills which have not received Royal Assent before prorogation are “entirely terminated†and, in order to be proceeded with in the new session, must be reintroduced as if they had never existed.
As an addendum Hogan, here’s the deal.
I will be attending Garth’s Town Hall in North Vancouver. I’ll pass Garth one of my business cards. Next time you ask about my fantsay ‘union membership’ he’ll know without doubt that you’re just pissing in the wind.
And another question you can prtezel in your mind. Dont police officers also belong to unions?
Hahahahahahahahaha!
Again. The Stupid! It Burns!
What point?
Repost – Garth – What Point?
It would be interesting to know if these guys are Sûreté du Québec, CSIS, RCMP, or foreign operatives. Whatever their identity, they look like they rehearsed their exit. I also understand that the US military and the PMO likely had input into security at this meeting, so this was likely an approved tactic from a high level.
imo Duceppe is a self serving ass who propped up Harper because he could be bought off like a prostitute with the Budget. Layton is in the same bed making for an interesting threesome.
Throw a few coins on the ground for Duceppe and he’ll jump right back in bed, and if Layton is led to believe Harper ‘needs’ his support again he’ll huff and puff …’see what we got out of Harper’…only Harper has a habit of not keeping his word. Promises made, promises broken.
NO ONE should trust that sleeze.
Ken…You amaze me. Any rational person would be concerned about police acting as provocateurs. You’re trying to blow conspiracy smoke. How pathetic.
By Scot Lowe on 08.23.07 2:35 pm
Read more carefully Scot. My main issue is the statement that this was politically directed. Was it the police? Do you know for sure? What were they trying to achieve? You are saying that the Quebec police put men in the protest group to stir up trouble?? Why would they do that?? You give me even hint of credibility to what you appear to think is fact. If this was the police they looked like scared bumbling bafoons to me. They need to do a better job recruiting.
Garth,
Thanks for not posting my question to you. Garth – The defender of free speech except when he doesn’t like it.
Another question – Harper has said that the troops will leave the battle area of Afgan Feb 2009 – Why is Dion still moaning? Does he have a problem understanding English? Does he ignore what is happening around hi? Remember garth – Dion voted to send our troops there. And no one has provided me with proof that the mission has changed except Dion says so. BTW – Are you accusing the cons of doing what Chretien did and order the attack lawful protestors? You remember APEC don’t you?
None of your valuable posts were deleted. — Garth
I am told to protect themselves from gas being sprayed.
By pjw on 08.23.07 2:09 pm
Those were just cloth masks, that wouldn’t protect much at all. Besides, if they’re just protesting and not becomming violent, they would have no need. I don’t think you’re right at all here.
Who has branded them pls?
By pjw on 08.23.07 2:10 pm
The mainstream public.
Nice assumptions Hogan. But then again, you aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed.
I have never been a member of a Union. Never ever paid a cent of union dues. I’m actually an urban professional.
Here’s you’re project Hogan, prove me wrong!
As for ‘Communist’? WTF? Are we back to teh McCarthy era. Is your next question, “When did I stop beating my wife?â€
Can’t deal with the message or the facts so you make assumptions.
You’re pretty funny. Are you 12-years old?
The Stupid! It Burns!
By Frank Frink on 08.23.07 2:34 pm
Frank bud, you’ve misread my post. I was clearly referring to David Coles. Next!
Shadow Know Nothing and Ken (are’nt you gone yet?),
Same goes for you all.
You’re all blowing smoke and pissing in the wind with Hogan (to whom I actually meant to say ‘assumptions about me or anyone else’).
It’s really difficult for you guys to believe that we are anything but simply ordinary, average, concerned, taxpaying Canadian citizens who care deeply about our country.
If you care to attack my love for this country, just pray that you never question it directly to my face.
As for the comments about DailyKos.
i.e. ‘ultra left wing Daily KOS, the most ultra left wing nut bar in NA.’
Stop watching Faux News and listening to that prescription drug abusing radio host Limp-paw. US progressives are for the most part to the right of almost anything on the Canadian political spectrum. Kos is dedicated to getting Democrats elected in the States. Yeah, the Democratic Party, that’s a real ‘ultra left wing group’.
You guys know so very little. The ignorance is appalling, but not surprising.
Bye Ken, don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out!
(Must be a newbie at the Death Star…I hear they have had to add staff just to cover their arse more and more every day)
A charge is a charge. It is reportable, as are the results of that action. If you indeed know this is “without foundation†then provide evidence. It will be published here, in full, unadulterated. — Garth
You either don’t get it or you think you can fool enough people with your ethical deficiency. There are people who will pin everything on Harper and you are prepared to report such ideas as plausible. The only reason you put that in this article is to add fuel to the Liberal spin to paint the Conservatives as controlling, secretive and deceitful.
Just another play in the political game which is your life.
As this is my last day ever on this site I have managed to drain enough frustration from my system to be able to go home enjoy my dinner and leave any hope of seeing something different from today’s politicians.
Oh and Frank, here is the link to prove my point about David Coles.
http://www.cep.ca/reg_western/archives/columns/column_01.html
That’s a good Conservative response. BTW, I did not shoot the video, or make allegations. This is information in the public domain, and it needs to be cleared up. That should not be too tough for the police involved to do. — Garth
By Ken on 08.23.07 12:15 pm
Garth, while a lot of stuff is out in public domain, there is a lot of stuff not worth repeating on one’s own blog. You, as Member of Parliament, who is supposed represent his constituents, from all flavours of the political landscape, should leave conspiracy type to others. This type of writing from an MP just illustrates that some politicians are truly low-lifes.
Did I not ask questions relating to the authenticity of the charges? Or would you preferred that this topic was not even brought up for debate? Why? — Garth
This whole thing would be a lot less confusing if all the protesters were clearly labelled to that harmononized standard everyone’s working so hard to define.
He is critical of others but rarely if ever has any negative to say about the CPC.
Really PJW? I’ve said quite a few things negative, but they’ve seemed to slip your mind. You still hold on to the belief that I like the CPC. I don’t. There, now you can claim that you have seen me say things negative, especially such a general remark.
You just can’t get by your partisanship. You’ve never said one thing against Dion or the Libs.
So now, you’ve been proven wrong, outright I may add.
It is far damn sure the police will not tell the truth. They may even be Americans brought in to stir things up. The shoirtest one in the baseball cap looks aboriginal, perhaps Hispanic? They sure did not want to be revealed, that is a definite. I bet they were not counting on the old farts resisting them either. We old farts have a sense of right and wrong, which is lost on too many nowadays.
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.23.07 11:50 am
Maybe you are the American agitator on our Canadian political landscape. Hmmmm…. Can this be true Bill from Muskoka, a transplanted American?
Jack’s already out on a limb, Duceppe’s had two huge wedge issues handed to him on a silver platter and its time to prove whether or not Dion looks stronger on the campaign trail than in an opposition chair.
Party finances?
check their balance sheet.
Nay Hogan, You missed my point.
I also posted something echoing Mr. Coles’ assemsement from the POV of ‘from my experience’. And I am not a unionist. Because logically, if I would make the claim, ‘from my experience’ (as you said – ‘It would take a unionist to know’) then golly gee whillikers, I must be a UNIONIST.
And I’m not a unionist.
I understand your ‘technique’. Paint with a very wide brush. You made a logical fallacy.
Have you got it now?
Keep laughing (at yourself) but put down your assumptions and do try to keep up.
As an addendum Hogan, here’s the deal.
I will be attending Garth’s Town Hall in North Vancouver. I’ll pass Garth one of my business cards. Next time you ask about my fantsay ‘union membership’ he’ll know without doubt that you’re just pissing in the wind.
And another question you can prtezel in your mind. Dont police officers also belong to unions?
Hahahahahahahahaha!
Again. The Stupid! It Burns!
By Frank Frink on 08.23.07 2:44 pm
Frank bud, better stop while you’re behind, you’re looking more foolish than usual here.
You guys know so very little. The ignorance is appalling, but not surprising.
By Frank
When you can engage in real dialogue and not just name calling you may be worth conversing with. I don’t question your love for Canada – I asked you why you believe what you believe. You have not answered.
Why is my so called ignorance not surprising! Do you have secret spies watching me?????????
Still here? — Garth
This whole thing would be a lot less confusing if all the protesters were clearly labelled to that harmononized standard everyone’s working so hard to define.
By Brian Dondo on 08.23.07 3:17 pm
Awesome post!
Years ago we had what was called “Srike Breakers” bought and paid for by big company management, the police turned a blind eye and while the union protested to no avail…..Nothing changes. Was this the case here, who knows, is this goverment capable of doing so, that is for the public to decide. Hell this in 2007 and we all know GWB admitted their were no WMD’s and look what that lie has caused?
Somebody check Catherines boots!
This blog is becoming like a Jerry Springer show. It is entertaining at best but the worthwhile information is being lost with Garths hate on for all things Conservative. The more I read his negative rantings the more likely I will vote Conservative in the next election. Way to run a supposed “non-partisan” blog for your constituents Garth.
Who ever said this was a non-partisan site? It is all-partisan. All are welcome. All heard. — Garth
Hogan,
You do know that socialist does not = communist? (except in your own addled mind)
What did I say about ‘wide brushes’.
From your link quoting David Coles
“Unrepentant socialist, anti-globalization activist, environmentalist, supporter of feminist and social causes.”
I see, Communist? hmmmm… urmmm…. No.
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt, Hogan. Did you actually have a point?
By THE SHADOW KNOWS on 08.23.07 2:36 pm
Shadow cutiekins! Wherefore art thou, Shadow? Could it be Frobisher Bay? How ’bout dead centre of James Bay? Maybe you have discovered The Lost Continent of Atlantis on your travails (travels)?
In any event, it is wonderful to know you’re back, spewing forth your sick, vile, perverse ultra right-wing garbage, along with your compatriots again!
I thoroughly enjoy all of your worthless vents, angeldrawers! Sieg Heil Harpoof!
So now, you’ve been proven wrong, outright I may add.
By Sean P. Hogan on 08.23.07 3:19 pm
such a child…you are wrong again…
I voted CPC in the last election and my reason which I have given on here many times was because I never received an answer as to where the money went in Quebec and who in those ridings received the money which you have conveniently forgotten, I also said I had been duped by Harper because I believed when he said he would have an ethical, tansparent and accountable government. I think like one of the other posters mentioned, you must be about 12 years old…I am not alone in the opinion that you are just a child!
And pray tell, how does an independent become partisan? LMAO….and why would I be critical of Mr. Dion, he is the opposition leader and is not yet the Prime Minister of Canada, when he is, you can be sure he will hear from me. Now for your other offside statement…
“The mainstream public.”
By Sean P. Hogan on 08.23.07 3:04 pm
Oh could you please give the the figures on that? Never mind, that’s the kind of stupid question you would ask! I am surprised you would make such a generalized statement with out factual evidence to back it up…oh, I understand, you can make gereral statements when it suit you but challange anyone else who does….double standard even for a child Hogan!
As this is my last day ever on this site I have managed to drain enough frustration from my system to be able to go home enjoy my dinner and leave any hope of seeing something different from today’s politicians.
By Ken on 08.23.07 3:09 pm
You would if you voted independent!
on the youtube site someone made the comment that so many missed.
“I find it interesting that the three men ”arrested” were allowed to wear their backpacks. Even the most rookie cop would not allow such a risk to fellow cops.
When people ask me what I hate about Canadian Politics, I tell them about you. Do you even care?
By Truth on 08.23.07 1:12 pm
When People ask me to define SHEEPLE I can now reference this post as a great example of what happens when you disturb your(the Sheeple’s) view of the status quo.
Garth is the defintion of what an MP should be doing – dialoguing and representing constituents in an open transparent way.
Where is you MP,? Besides trying to learn French, all the Alberta Harper Party Caucus are in a closet waiting for PMSH to come and let them out for air because they sure aren’t allowed to speak,are they?
Ken, I believe what I believe because I love and believe in Canada. The Canada that forebears have live in since 1660 The Canada that my French-Canadian, Quebecois forebears fought for and some gave their lives for in two major European conflicts – you know which two conflicts I mean. The Canada that has come to be since that time. The Canada that people from many other nations look upon with envy.
Is that the Canada you love and believe in? Because if it isn’t I will oppose you and fight you every step of the way.
But thanks for asking. It was timely.
I’m going to take a break right now and reflect a bit on the passing of Pte. Longtin, Mst. Cpl. Duchenes and M.W.O. (Master Sgt.) Mercier. You see, grandpa was career VanDoo, served in not one, but both conflicts from above. I honour his memory by honouring theirs.
Je me souviens, Ken. Je me souviens.
Here’s a novel idea, and my conspiracy theory (if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em – NOT):
Maybe they were in fact undercover enforceement officers who were on the other side of the barricade to identify and apprehend individuals responsible for any subsequent violence perpetrated by the “legitimate” protesters (which did in fact occur later).
Seems more likely to me than “agent provocateurs” who would no doubt have been widely videotaped by security cameras and media had they instigated hostilities.
OK, so we should just trust the government? I think a lot of investors and environmentalists and tax-paying families that one already. Bad decision. BTW, are you coming to the TH meeting in Edmonton? — Garth
I never said we should trust the government. If anything, you have proven to me that even those men in politics who dare to say things against the powers that be are really just looking out for themselves. Constituents be damned, its all about you. Just like it’s all about Harper, or it was all about Martin, etc. You are all the same, really.
I defended your opinions on Emerson. I defending your reasons for feuding with cabinet and the pm. But your actions crossing the floor, in direct contradiction with your past beliefs, coupled with your vicious partisan attacks against anything conservative have totally cemented my opinions.
The only man with class and honor that I know of on the hill is Monte Solberg. And his blog kicked the crap out of this one.
So no, I do not have time to attend your town hall. You will lie to my face and go on with your politicking, and I don’t have time for that. PS- One of my good friends attended your town hall meeting where NOT ONE person voted for you to join the liberals. You lied to your own constituents too.
And you wonder why no one has faith in our public figures? Look in the mirror, would you?
Bye Ken.
“on the youtube site someone made the comment that so many missed.
“I find it interesting that the three men â€arrested†were allowed to wear their backpacks. Even the most rookie cop would not allow such a risk to fellow cops.”
Excellent observation. The whole thing reeks of “rookie”. Some undercover operation when the undercover provocateurs wear their police issue boots and attempt to conceal them as such with some duct tape over the outside of the upper boot to conceal the identifying marks (see video for evidence of duct tape on boot) but are too brain dead stupid/lazy to conceal the bottom, and in their phony arrest dramatization reveal the bottom of their boots side for side with that of the “arresting” officer. Can these guys get any more clumsy and amateur? Not only do these guys make for lousy cops, they would be pathetic as criminals. Haven’t they learned anything from their paid occupation?
Good thing David Coles had the presence of mind to understand the rouse for what it surely was, since had it run its full course he would have likely found himself arrested for being part of a violent protest, when clearly he had no such intentions.
A charge is a charge. It is reportable, as are the results of that action. If you indeed know this is “without foundation†then provide evidence. It will be published here, in full, unadulterated. — Garth
I have to provide evidence to refute your accusations? How about you provide evidence to authenticate your irresponsible rhetoric.
How about you provide evidence to prove you did not receive any perk from the liberals for joining them.
Black boots and vibram soles do not implicate the PMO. you need something more than that, Garth, or else it is “without foundation”.
This is a suspicious incident all right. The actions of both the three in question and the police throughout the incident makes it very difficult to not believe these were agents of the police. Consider that the three were wearing masks, which is usually to prevent the authorities from being able to identify the person (and not primarily for gas protection as some have tried to claim, although that can be a secondary reason) so why, when those masks were trying to be removed by other protestors did they run to the authorities? Doesn’t pass the smell/logic test on that point. Then we get this business with the way when these three were taken into custody that their masks were left on, which is not the norm when people are arrested/detained, the authorities remove masks upon arrest typically, another anomaly. Then we get to the point that one of the three had a rock (which can be a lethal weapon, low tech sure, but dangerous) and the police ignore this for several minutes despite the close proximity. Why?
Then we come to the argument that even if these were cops undercover that this was no big deal since cops do that to monitor protests, which would make sense except for that rock. It is the rock in the hand of the protestor that raises this to being a potential provocation attempt, and to try to argue that they were simply trying to look like protestors by carrying the rock is nonsense, and even for arguments sake that was a valid argument it would be clearly risking triggering a violent outcome via baiting which last time I checked was not legal for a cop to do. So that “explanation†makes no sense.
Yet these are the defences I have seen from those that are unwilling to consider that these were agents of the police acting inappropriately and potentially to create a violent outcome whatever their reason for it (which could be political to discredit the message of the protestors, could be to make it easier to bar protestors next time out, etc, so there are reasons that range from political motivation to police motivation for their own agenda, so to try and claim that we can or cannot know definitively either way at this point is wrong, which also means that everyone trying to dismiss this possibility out of hand is as wrong as those that are willing to claim that it had to be for such purposes). We know that there had been a history of such things in our past, we know that there is a recent history of such within the American system under the GOP/Bush43 years, so to try and claim that anyone being worried that this sort of provocative conduct by police is tin foil hat territory is clearly either ignorant or an apologist.
Something is very wrong here, and the behaviour of both the trio and the riot police makes for a very strong case that these were agents of the police, and the rock in the hand of one of them and the lack of concern from the cops while the protestors are yelling a him to drop the rock is what makes it reasonable to be concerned that this was an attempt to trigger/provoke violence. This really needs close examination indeed, it smells even worse that the lame claims about tax leakage with ITs with blacked out documents and every major independent economist saying that argument was bogus.
Incidentally, Harper and the CPC do not deserve the benefit of the doubt regarding creating false scenarios against political opponents, they made the Grewal fraud tapes, used them to claim the Libs were selling Senate seats for MP votes, then ran away from it claiming no CPC did anything wrong once the fraud was exposed (after Harper on down in the CPC claimed these tapes were conclusive and totally unedited) despite from the moment the recordings were made to the CPC authorized/”authenticated” release of May 31 05 they were in CPC hands only. So when Harper denied any wrongdoing in that affair by any CPCers, he was clearly and blatantly lying. So to think it is inconceivable for Harper and the CPC to order such a set-up given that history is to show one’s own partisanship, ignorance, or stupidity, since that fraud was clearly committed by someone(s) in the CPC. That Harper once it was exposed lied repeatedly and tried to blame the Liberal war room and the so called liberal media bias/conspiracy out to slime CPCers when it is simple chain of custody that ties the CPC to the editing of the recordings and their willingness to claim they were complete and unaltered showed either they were too incompetent to notice the obvious altering/edits or they knew about them and didn’t care or they were intentionally a part of it from the outset.
The Harper CPC has a proven record of lying to the public about criminal accusations in the past, it has a proven record of lying in election promises as the IT issue and the Softwood sellout make clear, so anyone still willing to argue that Harper and the CPC are somehow more honest/trustworthy than any other political party is a total joke and a bad one at that. If anything their record argues they are even more deceitful than the other political parties, no small feat these days but there you go.
“The charge has been made that such tactics, if they existed, could have been ordered by the PMO.”
All PMSH needs to do is start wearing brown shirts to go with his shiny brown pants and we’re all set.
There are two possible explanations.
They were protesters.
They were not protesters.
The PMO, the SQ and the RCMP have responded.
A query went to Charest’s office.
Other police agencies were involved in Montebello security.
Who were these men who disappear after being put in a police van.
Canadians don’t know who, what or why.
Either the media files for information, or the CEP files a harrassment suit so information becomes public.
This occured during a public protest on public streets.
Maybe some of you don’t care, but it matters, this is not a left/right scenario.
It seems to me that even a half-wit would be concerned about this kind of hijinks on the part of police. I find it even more astounding that someone would hold the older guy responsible for anything but trying to keep the peace.I’m looking at you Hogan!
By Scot Lowe on 08.23.07 1:33 pm
See Garth? If you help spread this stuff, people believe it and you know it. Now, you conspiracy theorists will have a ball stating this as ‘fact’ by next week. There are things I have read about Liberals, that are ‘way out there’ and I don’t help spread the dirt because to have wacko theories printed as fact is unfair. This was a stupid move in light of Dion becoming known as a Conspiracy Theorist himself.
Yes, I know, George Bush caused 9/11 on purpose. Who really shot JFK? I saw Elvis at the 7-11 last night…sheesh!
L
By American in Milton on 08.23.07 4:05 pm
BINGO! That possibility that they were tourorists (Gotta speak Busheeze for some you know) would certainly not have been overlooked, especially with the 25 km radius ‘Clear Zone’ My guess U.S. CIA, NSA, or military. Trying to get some ‘action.’
I see the Death Star Troll Patrol is out in force today. Guess where they were the past couple of days? Mountainous Belly knows.
Garth,
I do apologize for the comment regarding not posting.
Would you please answer my questions though:
1. Why is Dion championing Climate Change now when he did nothing when he had the chance?
2. Why has Dion said Canada cannot meet the Kyoto goals but is expecting the cons to do it?
3. Why would even insinuate that PMo had anything to do with a nutcase conspiracy theory? I too have had a pair of those boots. thats the best they have?
3. Why is it Ok for Chretien to order or have Carle order the attack on peaceful protestors?
4. Why is OK for you to post unsubstantiated rumours? You like everyone to think you are ethical and open-minded. Is this the new Enquirer?
5. What point did I make for you? Its ok for you to spout crap but nobody else can?
6. Off thread – the Liberals are the last ones who should be talking about the cons and election financing. Remember – stolen taxpayer money – to Quebec Liberals – Gomery and all that. So jjust so I’m straight – Stealing from canadians ok if it done by Liberals but shuffling accountable money around is bad. Please explain. and yes i do see some of the hypocrisy on both sides.
7. Dion voted at the cabinet table to send our troops to Afgan. Please hsow me proof the mission has changed. mr. Dion will not return my emails asking for clarification of this and his accomplishments re: Climate Change.
Please answer the questions Garth. I would love to have a civil debate based on facts.
Maybe they were in fact undercover enforceement officers who were on the other side of the barricade to identify and apprehend individuals responsible for any subsequent violence perpetrated by the “legitimate†protesters (which did in fact occur later).
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.23.07 4:29 pm
Obviously you are not old enough to remember much.
Most legitimate protest organizations have no problem with an under cover police presence because it can be used to protect them and their creditability. It is true that there are some groups that attend for no other reason than to discredit other participants.
There should be no need for police officers assigned to watch crowds to use face coverings to disguise their identity. If fact, using this kind of disguise would actually draw attention to their presence (as it did to the three individuals in this case) and undermine the entire purpose for being there.
It is not in the interests of public order, and their personal safety for police to instigate violence. Someone high up in the chain of command would have had to have partisan motives to conceive of such a plan and I cannot imagine a police force in which such a diabolical plan would be tolerated by the entire rank and file.
In any event, it is wonderful to know you’re back, spewing forth your sick, vile, perverse ultra right-wing garbage, along with your compatriots again!
I thoroughly enjoy all of your worthless vents, angeldrawers! Sieg Heil Harpoof!
By Charles Oxley on 08.23.07 3:56 pm
Old Charlie boy, you sound like Frankie. I don’t think you are in a fighting mood though like Frankie. He sounds like he needs anger management. This is what happens when you get to deep into that ultra left wing KOS site. Do you also subscribe to the ultra left wing KOS web site as well Charlie?
I thought you were really courting Geo as I haven’t seen much of her for a long time. Now that you have Georgia on your mind you can put away that big doll. Be a nice fellow now and take good care of Geo because she is quick to intercede on your part.
You must take steps to get out in the fresh air more, maybe you and Geo can go for a long walk. Sure be good for the mind. With a little work I really think you are salvageable Chuckie.
Auf wiedersehen to you too Charlie. Adios
“I find it interesting that the three men â€arrested†were allowed to wear their backpacks. Even the most rookie cop would not allow such a risk to fellow cops.
By American in Milton on 08.23.07 4:05 pm
I really missed that point, but you are right on. They would NEVER leave those backpacks on any “real” bust.
The boots might have been a coincidence (I have a pair) But the backpacks staying on is a dead give-a-way that they conspired together.
It is getting harder and harder to deny.
If no “honest” journalist fallows this up it is a sad day for our “right to know” braggarts.
Are you listening G&M big media guys???
Or is freedom of the press is another out right lie?
Sean,
The only way to clear this up is to go and read the police report concerning the arrests.OH WAIT there are none.Also real protestors do not run to the cops for protection.
Guilty. Now we just need to find out who it is.
Definately not the Quebec cops, they denied it right away. The RCMP denied that they would do something like that.
So leaves who? CSIS, PMO, AMERICANS?
I see the Death Star Troll Patrol is out in force today. Guess where they were the past couple of days? Mountainous Belly knows.
By Bill-Muskoka
The cons got the memo from Bush and Harper to just pass off real concerns as conspiracy theories and crazy talk.
Very predictable and gullible bunch.
Pity.
GAWD! The CRAPpers have gotten like a bunch of drunk parrots. Always asking inane questions, always the same idiotic posts.
Let’s just face it, they are the ones who think being American would be better than being Canadian, that fail to know anything other than what they are told, and live in a make believe world. Many, the Alliance types, are die-hard Funnymentalists, and think they have a God given calling to ‘save’ the world.
Ironically, they oppose all the things that would save the world.
They should just be ignored from hereon out. They are beyond boring.
By Scotian on 08.23.07 4:55 pm
Consider that the three were wearing masks, which is usually to prevent the authorities from being able to identify the person (and not primarily for gas protection as some have tried to claim, although that can be a secondary reason) so why, when those masks were trying to be removed by other protestors did they run to the authorities?
Long post – this one section caught my attention. Maybe some of the libertarians/legal eagles can help me with this one.
At what point does the mere act of trying or succeeding to remove another persons clothing, by force, in itself constitute an assault?
Suppose these three had instead worn full head cover hijabs, or like they do in Afganistan, burkas?
Can you, as a protester, suspecting, say, that I was acting suspiciously (like a terroriost), and it appeared that I had something under my garment, proceed to disrobe me?
Who had assaulted whom?
- Just a thought.
Then we have not mentioned that it was all a planned training exercise? Nifty, eh?
Can’t get the real protesters to cooperate so send in the Training Officers.
One thing is for darn sure…No cop is going to kindly allow and then escort a potentially dangerous person into their own midst. Watch the video…open your eyes.
What a joke pulled on the Sheeple. Harper at least got it right…’it was nothing’ and he knew that.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=6588f443-ebe8-4a93-8d42-8c89dd725ef2
Tories clash with Elections Canada
Candidates got national party cash, applied for federal rebates, Citizen analysis reveals
Tim Naumetz and Glen Mcgregor, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Thursday, August 23, 2007
More lies.
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Canada/2007/08/23/4439957-sun.html
Tories ‘exaggerate’ tax-cutting claims
Edmonton Sun
By THE SHEEPLE KNOWS on 08.23.07 5:20 pm – ‘ultra left wing KOS site’
Keep repeating the lie and the ignorant will believe soon enough.
Ultra left wingers like these folk?
http://wes-clark.dailykos.com/
(yes, THAT Wes Clark, Retired General US Army)
http://jimmy-carter.dailykos.com/
(yes, THAT Jimmy Carter – former US President and Retired Commander US Navy)
http://congressman-john-conyers.dailykos.com/
http://john-edwards.dailykos.com/
(Democratic presidential nomination candidate)
http://jim-webb.dailykos.com/
(Former Secretary of the Navy, current Senator D-VA)
You have a very odd perception of ‘ultra left wing’. Go ahead click on the links. It’s really them.
You might actually learn something instead of Bahhhhhh-ing all day long.
Have you any wool?
So it turns out they were police officers. One about face forced by public scrutiny. Good work folks.
garth,
I see no answers to my reasonable questions. So lets try this. I heard Garth got some of the money from Adscam to join the Liberals. Garth, please provide proof this did not happen? Is that your logic? And canadians are supposed to believe that you are just a hard-working honest mp looking out for his constituents.
Lots of questioons for you to answer garth. You have my email address please feel free to answer htere if you don’t want to on your blog.
Thanks.
Can someone exercise their right to self-defense? Always.
Can citizens confront potential criminals? Always.
Can citizens make a Citizen’s Arrest? YES!
Next defensive question from the Harperites…or, hopefully, NOT!
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-montebello.html
Its easier to tell the truth first ’cause backpeddling later makes you look childish.
This just in:
Deaths trigger vote threat
Bloc threatens to bring down government over mission
NOW the Bloc is upset when it’s their own dying. Honeymoon is over methinks.
Why is Dion championing Climate Change now when he did nothing when he had the chance?
By Jeff on 08.23.07 5:16 pm
Here is one to look at,non other than the great Al Gore’s mansion compared to a house belonging to Bush.
Check it out. http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp
[...] MP Garth Turner put up the Montebello YouTube video of bootgate (via: stageleft) and got slammed into the middle [...]
The evidence is mostly circumstantial, but in total it’s fairly compelling – the way they moved towards the police when confronted, the lack of any struggle on their detainment, the lack of an arrest, as well as the boots.
What I don’t get was the motive. These weren’t terrorists – they were a bunch of grandparents peacefully demonstrating against the SPP. In the video you can see their clear anger when people with masks come storming in, rocks in hand looking ready to start some destruction. Was this another attempt to discredit opponents of the SPP?
Or did the cops just want a convenient excuse to beat up some grandmas?
I trust our Members of Parliament will seriously investigate this matter, as it strikes a huge blow against our right to peaceful assembly.
Do you also subscribe to the ultra left wing KOS web site as well Charlie? . . . With a little work I really think you are salvageable Chuckie.
Auf wiedersehen to you too Charlie. Adios
By THE SHADOW KNOWS on 08.23.07 5:20 pm
Hello sexy Shadow. As a matter of fact, I do not subscribe to the KOS web site, or anything else.
Perhaps if you had read my post from last night you would know that I have supported the Green Party (taken the middle road) for a little past two decades now.
I do read Garth’s blog whenever I can, as he gives posters the freedom to express their own opinions, which is a lot more than SIEG HEIL MEIN FUHRER HARPOOF does.
As to being salvageable, I was made up of spare parts in some steel mill in Hamilton, Ont., so I may be rusting out. Got some WD40? I could sure use it!
. . . Many, the Alliance types, are die-hard Funnymentalists, and think they have a God given calling to ’save’ the world.
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.23.07 5:33 pm
Hello Bill, if these jackbooted jackasses want to ‘save’ the world (from what I don’t know), then they are welcome to have this garbage dump of a planet all to themselves.
Better an atheist and follow one’s own gut feelings – I certainly don’t let anyone tell me what path to follow, or how I should live my life.
Now we just need to find out who it is.
Definately not the Quebec cops, they denied it right away. – Keith Phibbs
Ah well, isn’t this always the way. Those that protest too much about their innocence are the guilty party. So the Quebec cops did have undercover agents in the protestors. (Just reported on CBC!) Were these 3 individuals amoung their number?
Old Enough To Remember:
Nice way of using a section of my post to go off on a tangent, and if those with the masks were feeling threatened by such actions they had every right to ask for assault charges to be laid if there was sufficient grounds, but they have not. So your question while interesting in and of itself it utterly irrelevant to this matter and the relevant issues.
BTW, for someone claiming to be old enough to remember, you clearly do not know all that much about the history of the RCMP, especially in the pre-CSIS days when it was simply the RCMP intelligence unit, of the many infiltration and provocation jobs they did during the Cold War. Things like trying to find out whether someone was gay by setting them up to joining groups to not only report on what they were planning but to actually instigate plans that would break the law so as to be able to break the groups up. None of this is new, so your alias/sobriquet on this blog is coming off as somewhat oxymoronic.
General:
The conduct of these three and the conduct of the police are what make this so suspicious, which is why we are seeing the CPC defenders treating the boots issue as the primary basis for the claim of police infiltration instead of the actual ones because that is the only element they can mock, all the other circumstances do not hold up to logical scrutiny and therefore cannot be so easily/blithely dismissed let alone be mocked. It does force one to wonder though why the CPCers here and elsewhere in the blogosphere are going to such lengths to discredit this story, unless they are worried for some reason that there were some political involvement/directives from the CPC government after all. In simpler terms, why do they protest so much, especially when there is nothing to actually point to political interference/involvement at this point? Questions yes, actual evidence pointing to it no, since we still have yet to even get the police to identify and explain what happened to these three men after they took them into custody.
I also find the point being raised about the backpacks being left on post arrest a major data point for the reasons others have already noted, that it was a potential threat/danger to the police and this is not standard protocol whenever arresting someone, same as leaving them with their face coverings intact is not standard arrest/detention protocol. The more this is examined the more it makes it look like a police operation at the minimum, and the rock being held by one of them can reasonably be seen as a tool for provoking violence for there is no good reason for any undercover cop to be holding a potential lethal weapon in such circumstances.
Therefore the idea that this was an operation intended to trigger a violent scene sufficient to justify police action and arrests is far from far fetched let alone tin foil hat territory (despite the clear efforts of many CPCers to claim exactly that) and it is incumbent on the police to provide a proper explanation to explain away this in a conclusive manner. Otherwise they leave themselves open to the future suspicion of triggering violence at protests which is not in their best interests. It is also a non-partisan interest because it is not in the interests of any believer in an open/democratic system whatever one’s political affiliations/ideology to allow law enforcement to be used in such a manner to disrupt and taint peaceful protests of government activities. I wonder how the same voices defending this here would have reacted if this were in 2003 and happened as an anti-SSM rally. Somehow I doubt they would be as blasé/complacent about it as they are now, which would simply show such folks as nothing but those that place political partisanship over civic principles, which is as far as I am concerned as anti-Canadian a mindset as you can get.
We are a nation whose basis and motto is peace, order, and good government, which requires a citizenry that believes in the importance of the rule of law, equality under the law for all, and are willing to stand up for those principles whenever they are being violated no matter who is the target. We have seen where such blind partisanship takes an open society in the past seven years in America under the Bush43 Administration, I rather doubt that is where most Canadians feel we should head towards as a nation, and this sort of police action is one way to end up in such a place. That is why this is as serious and important an issue as it is, and no amount of bleating of tin foil hat territory or nothing to see here is going to change that reality.
Why is Dion championing Climate Change now when he did nothing when he had the chance?
By Jeff on 08.23.07 5:16 pm
Hi Jeff, I guess your new to the blog, welcome.
So, did Mr. Dion have 13 years to do something. No. He wasn’t elected in 1993 and wasn’t Minister of the Environment until much latter.
Remember the Montreal Climate Change Conference, chaired by Mr. Dion.
Remember who was in opposition and their view, denial, of climate change? That would be our current Prime Minister, who stated that he would defeat any proposals from Mr. Dion.
Could Mr. Dion have brought in his plans by orders in council and hence would not need to get the support of the HoC. On some things, possibly, on others, definitely not!
Old enough to remember:
In an interview with CTV, David Coles, the gentleman in the suit (CEP) says protesters further down the street were yelling these three were cops as they moved them toward the group Coles was with.
Look at the video.
Listen to the interview, get the background and perspective.
Read, other people were there.
Look at the wider timeline than the clip.
The bandanna’assault’makes sense if you know what happened around the time frame of the video and what was said.
Filing assault charges means information gets into the court system and becomes public.
“Can you, as a protester, suspecting, say, that I was acting suspiciously (like a terroriost), and it appeared that I had something under my garment, proceed to disrobe me?”
Listen, watch, put together the sequence of events.
Then come back and ask that question.
GAWD! The CRAPpers have gotten like a bunch of drunk parrots. Always asking inane questions, always the same idiotic posts.
Let’s just face it, they are the ones who think being American would be better than being Canadian, that fail to know anything other than what they are told, and live in a make believe world. Many, the Alliance types, are die-hard Funnymentalists, and think they have a God given calling to ’save’ the world.
Ironically, they oppose all the things that would save the world.
They should just be ignored from hereon out. They are beyond boring.
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.23.07 5:33 pm
Oh the great one has spoken. What is your problem, didn’t get any strokes today? Or did you get to many and it went to your head? Why do you think we should succumb to your diatribe? You never make sense just a big dose of hot air. You think you own this site with all your smart ass comments. We oppose all things that would save the world? Get real. You think we are boring mister, we put some class into this site. Again, get real. When we are not here the site is boring and that is the time that you think you can run rough shod over everyone else. Who do you think cares when you eat and what you eat and when you go to bed? Not me for sure. Do you think for one minute that I care whether you ignore me or not?
That’s enough, you should have the picture by now, or is it just to cruel to look into that mirror again.
My reply to Scotian regarding the Grewal tapes and what Garth had to say about Hon. Ujjal Dosanjh did not make it past the blog censors, or Garth doesn’t want his former opinion about Hon. Dosanjh reapeated. I think it is most likely the latter.
They did it!
The police planted agent provocateurs at Montebello protests!
Breaking News:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-montebello.html
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.23.07 6:03 pm
I presume this sort of vitriolic reply was directed at my earlier posting.
Bill, I have been reading your posts for quite some time, and largely ignoring them. You see, it appears to me that you either think this is your blogsite and therefore your and other like minded and supportive persons opinions should prevail, or you think you have some sort of celebrity status.
So, when you go the trouble of telling us what you’re doing for the weekend, what you’ve done when you return, or whether you just flushed once or twice, I just ignore it as an overinflated ego, and erroneous feeling of self importance.
So when you quickly are at the draw to comment on a blog such as this, and make the first comment, you think you have the definitive analysis, and any contrary one has to be a “CRAPper”, a “Harperite”, or some other derogatory term in some permutation of “CON”.
Are you personally offended when others don’t agree with you?
Do you really understand this country, and the respect for diversity and differences of opinion? I wonder.
In your first entry at the top of this page, you stated: “They may even be Americans brought in to stir things up. The shoirtest one in the baseball cap looks aboriginal, perhaps Hispanic?”
What are you really trying to say here? If the person doesn’t look like you, he must be a foreigner?
I really think you need some sensitivity training. A first step might be to think for a few minutes before impulsively responding on this site like an ill-conditioned pavlovian dog.
Maybe they were in fact undercover enforceement officers who were on the other side of the barricade to identify and apprehend individuals responsible for any subsequent violence perpetrated by the “legitimate†protesters.
And they used rocks as there weapons of choice or maybe they were just going to make them into writing rocks like on the Flintstones so they could take down the protesters names.
Good Grief -Do you also believe in the tooth fairy and other Harper Party myths.
Of course, there will never be peace here – witness Garth’s blog – but this is a good comparison of then and now.
It is also happening right here, right now.
http://desertpeace.blogspot.com/2007/08/tale-of-two-cities-warsaw-and-gaza.html
Time to add more gas to the raging inferno?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/08/22/ot-police-070822.html
By C. B. Innes on 08.23.07 5:18 pm
Obviously you are not old enough to remember much.
No need to have memory, apparently, thanks to the link provided By David M on 08.23.07 6:03 pm.
Hey, it could be pure spin, but obviously someone thinks it is plausible enough to release to the public.
Compare this quote with my conspiracy theory, entered above for fun.
The provincial police, in a news release, said its officers went undercover to identify and stop non-peaceful protesters.
“In no time did the police of the Sûreté du Québec act as instigators or commit criminal acts,” the news release states in French.
(note the CBC story was posted at 6:18 pm, almost two hours after my post, in case , inevitably someone thinks I’m conspiring somehow, hello Bill!)
A very good article detailing how Washington lays down its’ law and deals with protesters.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/21/AR2007082101662.html?nav=rss_politics
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070823/summit_protests_070823/20070823?hub=TopStories
Lie no1
Jeff,
Go away you are annoying. look through the history of this site to find the answers to all your questions. Quit being lazy.
on the bright side
anybody and everybody who DID get picked up during the demonstrations doesn’t have to worry about their names showing up in a press release.
Now it seems fishy.
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/249291
Day rejects call for probe of summit allegations
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YouTube: Video of alleged police provocateursSpeak Out: ’09 pullout?Travers: Communication breakdown, but no conspiracyIs the jelly bean up to standard?Border impasse continuesVideo: Cameraman injuredCP Video: Police, protesters face offTravers: Bush woes ensure little actionSummit notebookBig business slams summit secrecyLeaders eye border disaster protocolLittle expected at meetingEditorial: When Harper plays hostAug 23, 2007 07:19 PM
Steve Lambert
Canadian press
I guess he already knows who they are. So he doesnt want to waste taxpayers money.
I don’t care how the SQ spins it.Now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag,it is apparent these 3 guys were hell bent on intimidation.
And while Stockwell in Winnipeg said there wouldn’t be an investigation,that was said b4 the SQ fessed up.
Then Steve decribing the whole protester thing as sad,to see him laughin’ and talkin’ it up with that war criminal Bush and to hear Bush tell us that Canadians are doing a great job in Afghanistan while at the same time not providing enough resources for his own injured troops is totally lacking in crediblility and sincerity while being directly responsible for the deaths of so many and the destruction of so much in the ME is sadder than sad it’s despicably so.
Tonight CNN Presents Christianne Amanpour’s examination of the Christian Terrorists. Last night was about the Islamic, and the night before the Jewish. Everybody has their little gang nowadays. Starts at 9PM EDT
I get a kick out of how poorly the big guy runs that bluster at the Union rep. Guy’s been watching too many Dian Fossey clips. Schtoop couldn’t draw a punch with a pencil.
***BULLETIN***
SQ (Quebec Provincial Police) ADMIT they were the “Provocateurs” in question:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-montebello.html
Garth — you may want to update your original post.
I’m not surprised to hear that this was a provincial Surete de Quebec operation rather than a federal RCMP operation. The people who suggested there was a trail leading to the PMO must feel a bit silly right about now.
Quebec provincial police admitted Thursday that their officers disguised themselves as demonstrators during the protest at the North American leaders summit in Montebello, Que.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-montebello.html
Garth Turner “got slammed into the middle of next week in his comment section.” ???
Bene Diction should rename itself Male Diction. I’m beginning to realize that neo-Cons can read only what they wish to see, and discovering what I like about them: nothing.
ÉCRASEZ L’INFÂMIE!
By David M on 08.23.07 6:03 pm
Thanks for that link.
I say that ends the ‘debate’..they were COPS! Great, another Black Mark on the Blue!
By Keith Phibbs on 08.23.07 5:42 pm
AHA! So, what we have here is a ‘failure to communicate!’ Instead of reading their Bibles the Harperites need to read things like the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Election laws, and realize that their little make believe world fostered by the likes of Jerry Falwell is a fantasy. There are intelligent and knowledgeable citizens out here who are going to have their ARSE!
Great link BTW. Thank you!
Jeff, now you’re ankle-biting. I protest in the name of Sean P. Hogan, who has that function covered for the CPC.
By Charles Oxley on 08.23.07 6:33 pm
Oh, they quite a long list including SSM, corporate profits, a theocratic State, annihilation of other competitive faiths like Islam, the hardliner Zionists (After they are done using them for their goal of taking over the Holy Land. They want that NEW Temple), add to those about anything they can find any thing in the Bible to be against. Women’s rights, birth control, abortion, the list is endless…because they know that the End is near. What they haven’t grasped it is THEIR end that is near.
There will be a lot of TV Evangelists looking for money to pay off their ego driven debt, and the fastest way will be switch to DRUG DEALER, or PIMP! I am sure Jimmy Swaggert can teach them alot about the latter business.
Meanwhile, the regular people will find a thing called spirituality, which no longer needs some Elmer Gantry schmuck interceding for them. It should be quite interesting to watch.
Did I not ask questions relating to the authenticity of the charges? Or would you preferred that this topic was not even brought up for debate? Why? — Garth
By Catherine on 08.23.07 3:17 pm
This topic is about what? Some claim that 3 protestors were police agitators? Glad to see that you, Garth Turner, have now become the courts (judge and jury).
Do you have evidence that the video was not altered? Do you have evidence that these 3 were not there to amuse themselves on their summer school break? Do you have evidence that these 3 were active police/service men? Absolutely no evidence. Hence, you, as a member of Parliament should not be offering conspiracy theories. Please leave these to your other Libber bloggers.
Finally, Garth, you know full well, that you put this video on your blog to discredit Stephen Harper and the summitt. Nothing more than that! Very cheap politics.
Quebec police admit they infiltrated protest
Well this is very interesting. Good of them to admit to what is obvious to the naked eye. Do you think major news media like the the Globe will see fit to report on this now that its been admitted to by the Police that they conducted themselves in a manner that could only have led to the foment of violence among a group of otherwise peaceful protesters at the SPP meeting at Montebello? Perhaps the Globe can redeem itself from its gross omission of important news reporting to inquire into the more compelling question of how far up the “chain of command†the approval for this tactic was at a the high security summit. Who in the police/government wanted to deny these Canadians their right to peaceful demonstration and protest? Who wanted to contrive a false circumstance to portray these peaceful demonstrators and their legitimate concerns about SPP in a negative light?
The initial denial followed by this quick reversal and partial admission would lead any inquisitive journalist to question and seek the answer to who potentially is now being protected by this about face admission.
In addition, who exactly were these three provocateurs? Which service were they from? Quebec Police? RCMP? CSIS?
Catherine, please grow at least one neutral brain neuron, it’s a life skill.
By Liz on 08.23.07 6:50 pm
They did it!
The police planted agent provocateurs at Montebello protests!
Hi Kate. I read the updated CBC story and missed the connection. Where exactly does it say (apart from union allegations) that the offers were IN FACT “gent provocateurs” or is that just a technicality?
Please quote the passage that says this.
By Scotian on 08.23.07 6:42 pm
Nice diatribe.
Totally irrelevant if the police force in question was provincial, which it is.
I’m sorry you feel that way Herb.
Here is the full statement from the Surete du Quebec:
August 23, 2007
Following the diffusion of a video extract on Internet site Youtube.com, possibly implying members of the Safety of Quebec at the time of the Summit of Montebello, the latter would like to bring certain precise details. After having analyzed its contents, in addition to taking note of the vidéos recorded by the police bodies, it is able now to confirm that these individuals are police officers of the Safety of Quebec. The latter had the mandate to locate and identify the nonpeaceful demonstrators for thus avoiding the overflows. The police officers were located by the demonstrators at the time when they refused to launch projectiles.
As any time, the police officers of the Safety of Quebec acted like provocative or made agents criminal acts. Moreover, it is not in the policies of the service of police force nor in its strategies to act in this manner. Constantly, they answered their mandate to maintain the order and safety.
Here is the statement made by the Surete du Quebec August 22, 2007
“I confirm (to) you that there are no agents provocateurs in the Surete du Quebec. . . It doesn’t exist in the Surete du Quebecâ€- Const. Melanie Larouche.
I really think you need some sensitivity training. . . .
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.23.07 6:51 pm
Apparently Bill, Old Enough suggests you receive some “sensitivity” training.
Well, here is something for everyone. The first part is slow; however, from the middle on the clip is guaranteed to help just about everyone’s sensitivity.
Enjoy!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pl9b2s7AraQ&mode=related&search=
By Bene D on 08.23.07 6:45 pm
I’m not following this argument.
Who cares when they were identified and what others were saying prior to the video?
What gives anyone the right to remove another’s clothing?
The intent to remove the bandanas by the protesters was clearly for identification purposes and to capture their images on the video. There was no other plausible reason.
I’m sorry you feel that way Herb. Here is the full statement off the Surete du Quebec webpage
August 23, 2007
Following the diffusion of a video extract on Internet site Youtube.com, possibly implying members of the Safety of Quebec at the time of the Summit of Montebello, the latter would like to bring certain precise details. After having analyzed its contents, in addition to taking note of the vidéos recorded by the police bodies, it is able now to confirm that these individuals are police officers of the Safety of Quebec. The latter had the mandate to locate and identify the nonpeaceful demonstrators for thus avoiding the overflows. The police officers were located by the demonstrators at the time when they refused to launch projectiles.
As any time, the police officers of the Safety of Quebec acted like provocative or made agents criminal acts. Moreover, it is not in the policies of the service of police force nor in its strategies to act in this manner. Constantly, they answered their mandate to maintain the order and safety.
Here is their statement August 22, 2007
st 22, 2007
“I confirm (to) you that there are no agents provocateurs in the Surete du Quebec. . . It doesn’t exist in the Surete du Quebec†– Const. Melanie Larouche.
Catherine,
“This topic is about what?” Nothing, except the purpose and function of police forces in a non-police state, and perhaps the readiness of some members of the political establishment to use discreditable means to discredit opposition to their desires.
Put a sock in it. Your deliberate cognitive dissonance would be embarrassing to a normal political party.
Garth,
You know what scares me the most about this whole “police as provocateurs” incident is? IT IS THE SAME TACTIC THAT WAS USED BY THE NAZIES IN 1934
Whom ever is to blame MUST be brought to justice NOW!
Old Enough to Remember , Do you remember this too? or are you just some kid with a new drum and the cowardly ability to hide behind an assumed name /
Seems more likely to me than “agent provocateurs†who would no doubt have been widely videotaped by security cameras and media had they instigated hostilities.
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.23.07 4:29 pm
How do you like your Crow? Have you tried it with rock sauce?
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.23.07 6:51 pm
Re:
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.23.07 6:03 pm
I presume this sort of vitriolic reply was directed at my earlier posting.
So, when you go the trouble of telling us what you’re doing for the weekend, what you’ve done when you return, or whether you just flushed once or twice, I just ignore it as an overinflated ego, and erroneous feeling of self importance.
I really think you need some sensitivity training.
Are you old enough to understand hypocrite? Reread your rant.
Have you stopped taking your medications? A nice twip to a wubber woom may be just what you need.
Finally, Garth, you know full well, that you put this video on your blog to discredit Stephen Harper and the summitt. Nothing more than that! Very cheap politics.
By Catherine on 08.23.07 8:16 pm
Uh, Catherine, Did you by any chance catch the 6 o’clock news????
The Sûreté admitted their guilt.
Suck it up girl, your affiliation just got exposed for what you represent which is definitely anti Canadian.
By Catherine on 08.23.07 8:16 pm
Why continue the denial? There is no longer a conspiracy ‘theory’. Just poorly briefed and badly instructed officers carrying out their illconceived orders to put well meaning Canadian protestors in harms way.
Anyone capable of accessing this site and posting to this blog is surely able to view that video in a multitude of ways.
If there is anyone and anything worthy of discredit, I would suggest Stephen Harper and the SPP summit fits that bill with its agenda and discussion veiled in secrecy.
But, I suppose you to are simply a poorly briefed and badly instructed individual carrying out your illconceived orders to discredit Mr. Turner.
Marc:
Classic CPC defender tactic, ignore the fact that someone(s) in the CPC edited the recordings and then denied it despite the harsh reality being proven that the tapes were edited, were certified by Harper himself and his party to be unaltered when they were not, and from the moment a CPC MP recorded them to the moment they were released on May 31 05 supposedly proving the Senate seat allegation they were solely in CPC hands from moment of creation to moment of released in the edited form. That is what makes this so egregious and a major scandal Marc, that someone(s) within the CPC edited these recording to make it appear something was happening when the unedited version makes it clear it was soundly rejected and refused to even be considered. That it had to be someone within the CPC because of the chain of custody running from Grewal when he made them to the CPC LOO/Harper to the May 31 05 release.
Then once the fraud was exposed no accountability whatsoever from Harper for the CPC, not even an acknowledgement that these tapes had been edited by someone within their party. No, Harper instead blamed the fictitious liberal media conspiracy and the Liberal war room for raising the notion that such was possible, despite the fact/reality that it had to be CPC hands that edited since only the CPC ever had custody from its MP making the recordings to the release. If you cannot grasp why such a serious fraud regarding specific criminal allegations being made against a sitting PM like that is so extremely wrong, dishonest, and corrupt then there is no hope for you. In short, Harper lied when he covered it up, and it is still not known whether the edits were the act of a single man (Grewal) in which case the LOO staff translating, transcribing and authenticating the recordings should have noticed it before releasing them since it was so obvious once released that it fell apart in under a week with questions literally on day one. Or whether this was at the instruction of Harper or another senior CPC official in the LOO, but either way it falls onto Harper since he was the leader and he was the one that endorsed heavily edited recordings purported to prove conclusively Liberal Senate seat selling for MP vote buying and then ran away from it when it fell apart claiming to be totally pure and innocent, he and all in his party of any wrongdoing. Either he failed to do due diligence on something so serious or he was a knowing party, neither does him any favours and both are excellent reasons on their own for stating he is unfit for the office he holds.
It is the editing and subsequent passing off the edited recording as complete that is the real scandal, along with Harper’s deliberate choice to cover up the CPC wrongdoing which there had to be in this, logic does not allow for any other conclusion. It also does not permit any other conclusion then Harper will lie about serious matters if he thinks it will hurt him or his party, and lying about something like this is extremely serious, far more than over election promises. Lying about specific criminal charges and faking the evidence to support said lies to try and bring down a government is arguably an attempt at a coup you know. I’d say that makes it pretty serious in nature, as would any reality based person.
Dear Catherine:
Re your post to the effect that:
“This topic is about what? Some claim that 3 protestors were police agitators? Glad to see that you, Garth Turner, have now become the courts (judge and jury).
Do you have evidence that the video was not altered? Do you have evidence that these 3 were not there to amuse themselves on their summer school break? Do you have evidence that these 3 were active police/service men? Absolutely no evidence. Hence, you, as a member of Parliament should not be offering conspiracy theories. Please leave these to your other Libber bloggers.
Finally, Garth, you know full well, that you put this video on your blog to discredit Stephen Harper and the summitt. Nothing more than that! Very cheap politics.
By Catherine on 08.23.07 8:16 pm”
Your arguments are shallow and prejudicial. You would be well advised to employ your sense of suspicion (i.e “Do you have evidence that the video was not altered? “) and ease of accusation (ie “Garth, you know full well, that you put this video on your blog to discredit Stephen Harper and the summit”) to better use.
It would appear that you have a hard time accepting that all may not be right with the world according to Stephen Harper. This incident at Montebello may be the most recent installment. Perhaps you could help explain why it is now, that after denying the police had any role whatsoever in infiltrating these peaceful demonstrators that Stockwell Day is rejecting calls from the opposition parties for an inquiry. Wouldn’t your abundant sense of curiosity and ease to accuse lead you to believe that there may be motive behind this abrupt about face admission that the Quebec Police actually did infiltrate the peaceful protesters. Your natural sense of curiosity may extend to finding out who might be well served by this about face admission and denial for a more fulsome inquiry?
You’re right, neither of us knows which is why we need an inquiry. It’s not Stockwell Day’s role as Minister of Public Safety to police the police. Nor is it in anyone’s interest to protect the police, as the public must have absolute faith in the police and the tactics that they employ.
The level of desperation of the neoCon bloggers on this site has reached new lows. It is completely reprehensible that anyone would accuse Garth of receiving Adscam money to join the Liberal party. Maybe Garth should consider investigating a case of potential slander against his reputation.
Plus, this BS about Dion taking Adscam funds. Get a life! Better yet…stop being so lazy and take the time to actually read the Gomery Report. I’ve read it cover to cover and Dion was completely vindicated. For any blogger to suggest anything else is simply an unfounded fabrication.
This topic is about what? Some claim that 3 protestors were police agitators? Glad to see that you, Garth Turner, have now become the courts (judge and jury).
Do you have evidence that the video was not altered? Do you have evidence that these 3 were not there to amuse themselves on their summer school break? Do you have evidence that these 3 were active police/service men? Absolutely no evidence. Hence, you, as a member of Parliament should not be offering conspiracy theories. Please leave these to your other Libber bloggers.
Finally, Garth, you know full well, that you put this video on your blog to discredit Stephen Harper and the summitt. Nothing more than that! Very cheap politics.
By Catherine on 08.23.07 8:16 pm
Quebec police admit they infiltrated protest
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=66de9807-d2f0-444e-903e-1c0ba64556de&k=39211
Quebec police says masked protesters were cops
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070823/summit_protests_070823/20070823?hub=CTVNewsAt11
NOW the Bloc is upset when it’s their own dying. Honeymoon is over methinks.
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.23.07 6:05 pm
Now Dion is saying he doesn’t agree with the timing and won’t support the bloc. I guess the Lib trough still runneth over..Why hurry?
too bad Catherine’s last post missed by a mile. The news report from CBC pretty much proves the accusation is valid.
What is “funny” is that the police do not want to comment any further and probably because thier so called peaceful intent does not explain the rock wielding officers intent.
Garth? What can be done about this? its time to demand some answers. Who commanded these guys. They should be fired. keeping the peace usually means taking the rocks away, not carrying them into the potentially volitile situation.
Catherine, as a therapist, I would point out to YOU that you have an acute case of DENIAL!! Even the police have admitted their role now. Wake up! Smell the coffee!
I was on the national steering committe for the demonstrations. Okay, everyone, groan together now, but after 40 years of being active I thought I had something to offer. One thing I offered up was just what the White House Protocol on BuZh’s apparences actually is . which is .. no signs or placards are encouraged. That is interesting to note is it not? And that explained why the security barrier was put up. That way the signs and placards and teeshirts cannot be seen. Interesting how the 3 cops CLEARLY have no issue evident on their clothing, or holding signs or holing signs or anything! I woulda been suspicious of them, just for THAT!!!
I felt, and continue to feel, that goverment agents were also placed inside the local organizing committees, as many of the places that the 40 supporting demonstrations took place made absolutely NO sense from a strategic point of view. Demonstrating at the US Consulate here was a case in point. It has nothing to do with the issues raised in any way, yet it was put there anyway. WHY?
Now whether or not the FULL STORY of government involvement in wiping out the real issues to the maximum extent possible will ever get exposed .. I doubt it .. but I noticed that CTV ran the SAME clip of demonstrators over and over and over again . never showing how many people attended or showing any placards at the demonstration, instead ONLY focussing on those who took part that have an antiwar issue – not the job loss issue, the give away of gas, oil and water issue and so on. I took exception to CTV calling the executives inside “top” executives and being very elistist thoroughout the coverage. I tried to call to complain; they did not take calls and did not call back. So much for media transparency, too.
Garth probably knows that this issue was put front and forward today at
http://maisonneuve.org/index.php?&page_id=12&article_id=2880
and you can BET it will be front and forward tomorrow as well. There is nothing remotely POLITICAL to postingabout this . the entire country is posting .. and I will be posting about it, too, On http://www.opednews.com, where I regularly write about Canada and the SPP.
The more I reflect on Garth’s insistence on LISTENING and supporting real internet access and accountability, the more respect I have for him.
Virginia
test
Bene D (or M)
I’m sorry that you found it possible to claim that Garth “got slammed into the middle of next week in his comment section.†I know that a larger-than- normal CPC troll patrol tried, but where is a comment that achieved the putative slamming? The magnitude of the effort merely showed the neo-Con sensitivity on this issue, and was not justified by any results.
A problem with the SQ statement (besides the nebulous translation):
“The police officers were located by the demonstrators at the time when they refused to launch projectiles.” An interesting and disingenuous allegation – the good guys gave themselves away by refusing to participate in the violence of the others. Of course the SQ has video proof of other demonstraters pelting the police with rocks, even if no one else has provided such evidence of good times being had by the black gang. But how come the only demonstrator with a rock in his hand is an undercover cop who exacerbated the situation by refusing to let go of it despite being asked repeatedly to put it down?
The SQ statement is nothing but self-serving denial.
For the idjits who keep asking why protesters wear bandanas, check out the digicam on darth vadar’s helmet.
http://pacificgazette.blogspot.com/2007/08/montebello-video-we-have-not-seen.html
That is the 2nd last post, there is a more updated one as well. Oh the Doris Day backpedalling here is just so….so….well deliciously vindicating.
By Steve(Coveralls) on 08.23.07 11:03 pm
Fail!
Tonight Christianne Amanpour in her final segment ‘God’s Warriors’ interviewed President Jimmy Carter. President Carter is a Baptist, was a Southern Baptist (the largest denomination in America), and left the denomination due to it being taken over by Fundamentalists who have no tolerance, no real comprehension of the teachings of Jesus. His poignant statement in the interview was ‘They can never admit they are wrong because that would mean they are saying God is wrong!’
That, in a nutshell is the crux of their movement (according to their literal interpretation of the Bible), and also explains the very nature of Stephen Harper and his army of the Far Right!
America is nothing more, now,. than an English speaking version of Iraq when it comes to religious intolerance. No wonder they hate Islam and Iran, it reminds them of themselves. Now that, unlike Harper’s statement, is truly, truly SAD!
Be aware, not afraid. Truth is far more powerful than FUD!
Goodnight.
By Marie on 08.23.07 11:10 pm
LMAO! I thought I was the only one that ever used Idjits?
I award you 1200 points. I haven’t used that term in years. LOL
Old Enough to Remember:
Nice dodge, but it would be the RCMP that was the Canadian police agenda in charge at this conference, the fact that the SQ would be working with them under their operational authority appears to have completely eluded your oh so wise self. This was a transnational summit with heads of state and government involved, there is no way the Provincial police would have been the ones in operational control even if they were providing bodies, as anyone who bothers to think a moment on this would clearly recognize. As I said before your alias is appearing more and more of an oxymoron.
Marc:
BTW, the reason I cite Grewal in this thread is because it proves Harper will lie about criminal allegations or at best be a dupe being played with lies that he did not investigate enough to realize were lies before he used them to attack his enemies, which makes him less than trustworthy or believable when a situation like this comes up. Not to mention showing being capable of setting something like this up since on a moral and legal par it is about as offensive to democratic principles to do a provocation to discredit protestors as it is to fabricate evidence to falsely accuse specific criminal allegations against ones political enemies. This is why the details of what Garth said about Daliwahl is so obviously a dodge and irrelevant to the point, but then I have noticed that many CPC defenders go out of their way to miss the point, I would wonder why that was if it were not so bloody obvious.
By Charles Oxley on 08.23.07 9:25 pm
Cute. No one asked Dave Coles, President of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union this question in yesterday’s press conference, but since your available, and seem to be afflicted to a somewhat lesser degree, I thought I’d ask you.
Does the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada, Local 2000 offer such training, or is this just a big joke to you?
It’s completely appropriate for undercover officers to infiltrate the protesters. That’s the most effective way to monitor their activity. The fact that their are hooligans withing thses anti-globilization protesters is enough of a reason to monitor them internally. The inept execution of this operation by the SQ is a different issue.
Dell
Jeff:
Just hang around a while and your questions will eventually get answered. Someone did answer part of your question on Dion and his plans for climate change.
I’d like to give you more info. but have a bad back just now and can’t sit long enough. Maybe someone will get back to you. Garth is a very busy man and he does his best to answer legitimate questions I believe.
. . . I thought I’d ask you.
Does the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada, Local 2000 offer such training, or is this just a big joke to you?
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.23.07 11:24 pm
Actually Old Enough, since I retired (albeit unexpectedly) in Sept. 2000 due to a stroke, the only real joke now is reading all your (and others’) vitriolic neo-con right-wing drivel.
BTW, which shop do you work at? Union or non-union? I’ve done both in Toronto, and generally found that the union shops are better organized and run a much more efficient operation.
I have no doubt that you will disagree with me, but that’s okay. I’m retired, out of the workforce and I enjoy a great life – do you? Also, as stated previously, I am self-taught on the Mac and PC – it’s not that complicated.
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.23.07 11:24 pm
You’re obviously still old enough to be in complete denial.
Soem of us, however, are not fooled, and I believe we do outnunmber you.
How’s Mr. 36%, down to 35% .
Face it ConBot. Police admitted it. there’s likely more behind it. This isn’t going away anytime soon.
Now, go back and get your marching orders for tomorrow, Mr. Quisling.
We await your next round of horse puckey.
Another take on the NAU.
http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin49.htm
YouTube helped to get the MSM to finally look into it, but the real work had already been done for them . I’m pretty much disgusted with the lot of them, ctv, cbc, the dailies. Thank goodness for bloggers, the good ones. Remember the story in Alberta? “On June 18, the EUB admitted it had hired four private investigators to go undercover and mix with landowners who were sitting in the Rimbey recreation centre, watching closed-circuit coverage of board hearings in a nearby courthouse. The public had been barred from attending those hearings because of disruptions of earlier hearings in Red Deer.
In justifying the hirings, the board said the investigators were only supposed to monitor the potential for violence among dissidents. —-
“This is a vindication for me,” said Joe Anglin. “We know our rights and these people were violating our rights from the beginning.”
The Alberta Liberals’ energy critic applauds the results of the NDP’s sleuthing.
“Mr. Mason is absolutely right to call for the removal of these three individuals (the EUB tribunal). But it is my view that the premier should go one step further and ask that Mr. Knight step aside as minister,” Hugh MacDonald said.
“When a governmental organization spies on the citizens they are supposed to protect, you have a problem and the minister must accept responsibility,” MacDonald said.
“Until the two investigations into this matter are completed, Mr. Knight should go on a long vacation.”
That new alberta government, such a disappointment. Point is, it was only at the insistence of Bloggers that finally the MSM clued in. And of course that spying on your own citizens just doesn’t fly! Not ever.
Catherine,
You should be the last person to accuse anyone of cheap politics!
G.
OK
Has ANYONE in here lived through any sort of a summit? Honestly…ANYONE? I should be listening for an echo in here as I expect maybe one or two, and THAT IS IT!
I lived in Canmore during Chretien’s Kananaskis summit and let me tell you, I have NEVER seen so many undercover RCMP officers before. How can you tell? Oh, I don’t know, perhaps the close cropped hair, bigger build men walking around and the fact that they were at least paired up with two ‘officers’. Live through it just once and let us compare notes.
I do not regard Garth in any lesser of a light with this ‘revelation’. For those of you thinking this is his undoing, did any of you naysayers at all watch the CBC? That is where I saw this whole thing start. Now if the government sponsored broadcasting corporation is asking questions for the Harper government, as was done with the APEC summit, for those of you who remember that, they asked hard questions then and I see them asking the same thing now.
Don’t like it? Well, put on your rose coloured glasses or look at the bottom of whatever bottle you are drinking form to find your answer.
As for Ken threatening to never come back here, Ken….buddy, PLEASE leave, lord knows the collective may actually increase it’s intelligence a point or two.
By Virginia on 08.23.07 11:01 pm
As a therapist, you sure like to jump to conclusions.
When Garth posted his original blog entry, he did not have proof that these 3 were undercover cops, did he? He still does not know if these 3 persons have acted inappropriately. One side accuses and one side denies. It’s upto the accusers to lodge the complain. Why didn’t the union leaders do that in the first place, before they gave their 15 minutes of press conference?
BTW, as a therapist, you may want to speak with some of Garth’s groupies. They tend to be very angry people, as they are very abusive in their writings towards people who don’t agree with them. Just a suggestion, as I am not a therapist, and you are.
Nice dodge, but it would be the RCMP that was the Canadian police agenda in charge at this conference, the fact that the SQ would be working with them under their operational authority appears to have completely eluded your oh so wise self.
By Scotian on 08.23.07 11:23 pm
And you, Scotian, are jumping to conclusions that it was the mandate given to all police officers to agitate and throw rocks and molif cocktails and burn stuff in Montebello.
Now, be a good boy, and make an appointment with Virginia, the therapist, about your conspiracy delusions or at least why you need to make mountains out of mole hills. Not everything in life is that important!
The Police stated that the members of their force were inserted into the protestors for observational purposes only–from this statement, one must assume that the rock the one masked man carried must have been for self defense from all those rowdy old guy protestors.
This rock is similar to the one used by Mr Flaherty to slay the same old guy trust investors who were a blight on the Canadian fabric.
Actually , when I think about it , this is probably the same rock!!!!
Dr Mike.
They did it. On purpose. Those three (maybe more) were sent to sucker riot police into quelling a group of peaceful protesters on account of some rock-bearing police undercover.
That’s the story. In a nutshell.
Thank the goddess that no was was fooled and that no one was hurt by this evil and wrong action that put Canadians at risk of being harmed or killed by people who had been fed wrong information, or who had been riled by fakers.
Good on that Mr. Coles! He saved a lot of innocent Canadians their life, limbs, or mobility by his brave actions.
Whichever government is in power soon will be expected to get to the bottom of this travesty of police action and government incompetence regarding the safety and security of ordinary Canadians.
It is still a shock. To think that a government of Canada would order a police force to try such a thing. Thank goodness they failed.
Something is not right with the RCMP and other police forces in this country if they can be at the beck and call of the government to the point of disregarding ordinary Canadians’ rights.
Garth, please, look into this as much as you can, or dare. It is a very scary thing that is happening here.
Those rock-bearing cops seemed hell-bent on getting to the front to engage the riot police. The video makes that clear. Mr. Coles and other peaceful protesters stopped them; told them to leave the riot police alone, that this was a peaceful line.
Imagine the bloodshed that would have happened if Mr. Coles and the other peaceful protesters had not stopped these goons?
Is this what Harper had been secretly waiting for when he denigrated any opposition to his wishes as: “What is it? A couple hundred? Sad.”
Did Harper think he was prognosticating a set-back for the innocent Canadian protesters that he sent goons to?
Did Harper expect that pensioners, middle-aged retirees, ordinary Canadians would have their heads bashed in, or be pushed to the ground, snaked and hauled away, or teargassed, perhaps even shocked to death would win him some votes somehow? Who would tell the next of kin that grandma had been gassed and battered by police when she got caught up in a police-incited riot. Grandma always went to rallies… The same RCMP who gassed her or trod over her prone form?
Absolutely outrageous and uncalled for in Canada. Police, inciting riots. Endangering peaceful citizens. For what?
What was the government thinking when it cooked up this plan?
Something to think about.
Apparently it is becoming clear that both RCMP and QPP were involved in the riot squad line, so Stockwell Day’s helpful advice for people to contact the QPP or file a complaint against the QPP with the RCMP falls flat faced, as it should.
This incident is a travesty of Canadian justice, mores and basic civility and it cannot be tolerated.
Sham Sham, Why isn’t Public saftery Minister stockwell Day or PMSH calling for a public probe into the planting of undercover cops holding rock and acting provocativly!
Don’t they care about peacefull protest?
Haven’t they heard of freedom of speach!
This Government need to fall NOW!
It’s full of Weeny Jellybeen Neo-con
Fascist!!!
If weeny Jellebean PMSH wants to live in the USA he should move south of the boarded. He shouldn’t be using the SPP to make Canada a colony of the USA ritch
corporate elet. This is just bad public planing and policy to allow the corporation to control everything.
Corporations are not denocratic they, are maxium profit driven!
Hamanization through stealth, without Parlement oversight and approval is Treasonous!
*sigh* Apparently the Vancouver Sun has some information that the RCMP AND the QPP were involved.
So much for Day or Harper to stay above it all.
This is so bad. It makes Canadians hurt, even if they weren’t at a protest and liable to be subject to fake-reason battering and gassing.
This is so bad. It’s almost unspeakable.
Bad. Mal.
the fact that i live in a country of such corruptness where POLICE (who is supposed to be the keeper of law and order) gets away with first LYING about their action and then denying any sort of instigation gives me the chills… I’m moving back to Europe next year.. and frankly, I cant wait.
police showing the union leader the finger: http://communities.canada.com/nationalpost/blogs/posted/archive/2007/08/23/summit-police-admit-they-infiltrated-protester-s-ranks-at-montebello.aspx
…of course not trying to provoke at all… ya… whatever!
Statement from the Surete du Quebec webpage: “The police officers were located by the demonstrators at the time when they refused to launch projectiles.”
Nice choice of words huh? What they MEANT To say is that the police agent provocateurs were outed because the refused to DROP the rocks that they were carrying as they tried to incite the peaceful crowd to protest. The Filthy liars are trying to alter the truth through that statement.
In the past 18 months, Canada has been led into dictatorship, with their very own gestapo at their disposal!
I am very afraid for the future of Canada under this foul Harper Regime.
And, second, any leader or politician among us unappalled at this assault on civil liberties and unready to find ways to prevent it again might as well be wearing a bandana and brandishing a stone. – Garth
Can you say “Public Inquiry?” We need to know who is running the country, the politicians or the police.
Will it happen before or after the next election? Or to put it another way, will PMSH call for one, just like Paul Martin did over Adscam, or will he block it, another assault on transparancy?
Quebec police ,guilty.
Apology accepted from Hogan and the rest of the cons.
Now the question is how far up does it go?
Last week I heard Stockwell Day say that he and the RCMP were in charge of everything concerning security.
I am not quite sure what to make of all the fuss over an undercover police officer, rock in hand!
This has been standard police issue for some time as evidenced by the chiseled contents of the front slate of the Bedrock Times.
I fully expect we will be hearing in the near future how under paid police officers have taken to crawling out from under their homes and carrying it with them.
Do I make light of this situation? Shedding tears appears to be reserved for young girls fearful of those who purport to serve and protect, as seen in the photo montage at http://yayacanada.blogspot.com/2007/08/
montebello-village-under-seige.html.
I am reminded of the question a young aboriginal woman asked me at Victoria Island on the recent Day of Protest. Where have all the heroes gone? Where indeed?
Should there be outrage over these actions? I would suggest yes and it should be coming from the rank and file of the various police forces, those who still believe in ” To Serve and Protect”, who believed that when the day came and it was time to ride into the sunset, you would be sitting straight upon your steed, proud of a job well done to the best of your ability.
The young girl and woman mentioned, represent our daughters,sisters, nieces or wives and they are looking for heroes. (def: hero – a person of distinguished courage, moral or physical.)
Should Mr.’s Stockwell Day, Stephen Harper or any other official ask if I believe them or my lying eyes, my answer would be, Cir, not you Cir.
MEL
Can you all even imagine for one minute just how much of a “Bad Actor” PMSH could be will full control. Correct me here but would he just not be like “Dubya and his clowns in the White House” and just defy every law of the land when forced to submitt to any request by the people. May Heven help us all and hold your children close.
For all who doubt me lets see a full and open News Conference by PMSH with Stockwell Day and yes Wild Bill Elliot standing side by side answering all questions…..if not then all Garth has stated and more is the TRUTH!
From the absurd to the ridiculous:
http://ledaro.blogspot.com/2007/08/spp-identity-of-three-masked.html
So how does this implicate the PMO??
You, Garth, alledged the PMO may be involved. Where is the evident of that?
You need to withdraw your reckless comments and appoligize.
Hogan,
You do know that socialist does not = communist? (except in your own addled mind)
What did I say about ‘wide brushes’.
From your link quoting David Coles
“Unrepentant socialist, anti-globalization activist, environmentalist, supporter of feminist and social causes.â€
I see, Communist? hmmmm… urmmm…. No.
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt, Hogan. Did you actually have a point?
By Frank Frink on 08.23.07 3:45 pm
Yes Frank, I do see a Communist.
And bud, you can’t even admit you made a mistake when you make one and you’ve made a few here already. Calm down, take a breath.
Sean,
The only way to clear this up is to go and read the police report concerning the arrests.OH WAIT there are none.Also real protestors do not run to the cops for protection.
Guilty. Now we just need to find out who it is.
Definately not the Quebec cops, they denied it right away. The RCMP denied that they would do something like that.
So leaves who? CSIS, PMO, AMERICANS?
By Keith Phibbs on 08.23.07 5:28 pm
I didn’t say anything about the 3 guys. You’ve assumed I questioned the accusations against them. I couldn’t care less. The thing is, I wouldn’t put it past the Quebec cops to do such a thing.
Actually, this is all an Urban Myth. A Conspiracy Theory set up by the fringe, nutbar Quebec Police.
There was no cloaked trio. They were introduced as a hologram into the YouTube video. It is believed that Maude Barlow and the Raging Grannies oversaw the entire operation from an antique submarine. Those rocks were really disguised bags of jellybeans.
The SPP does not exist, nor does the SuperCorridor lobby group. There was no Three Amigos Summit. George Bush is wise and benovolent and believes in peace and Stephen Harper exists only to implement the will of Parliament.
BBBBBBBBBbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrahahahahaha
Since Bill is talking about the CNN series, I’ll put in some sense here. Its funny, Clinton and Carter were advocating for separation of Church and State. Not the real separation as it is known in the Constitution, but the one the left brings out. Why would these so-called Christians shoot themselves in the foot like that? Why would they want to eliminate a Christian voice if indeed they are Christians? The answer is simply, they are not Christian whatsoever. Another thing, Christ never tolerated sin and neither should Carter and Clinton.
Loved the part where the University students stood up and said the Lord’s prayer defying a judge’s orders. I’m sure Clinton and Carter would have supported the judge. They have no idea what tolerance actually means.
When i initially saw this clip, the first thing that came to mind was that the 3 protesters were cowards by not showing their faces. If people want to exercise their legal right to a peaceful protest, I believe that they should not cover their faces. In a protest, I would question the motives of anyone who covers their face.
I am appalled at what the QPP has done, in having officers infiltrate the protest crowd – whatever their reasons were – it was wrong, and should not have happened.
I also question the motives of this Dave Coles guy. It is quite evident by the video that the only person guilty of unlawful activity is David Coles. He assaulted the men in the masks. And now he is on this holy quest to uncover a conspiracy at the highest levels.
I have a very difficult time believing that the PMO, or anyone else at the Federal Political level would have orchestrated this. These people do have much better things to do.
Until there is proof that the call was made at the Political level, i think the conspiracy theories should stop. Garth, you should be the one to set the example.
The only proof that we currently have is that these 3 men were QPP officers, and that the QPP has admitted to placing these undercover officers in the crowd. It is a matter of time until we find out who made this call. Whether it was a unilateral QPP call, which will raise much more questions on its own, or a call that someone else made.
How about we wait for the truth to come out before we start pointing fingers at everyone.
Well, that wraps this topic up nicely. The Cops are BUSTED by the people! LOL
Maybe this will be a lesson to the Blue Thugs who think the public is stupid? They keep getting caught, but are a tad slow on the learning curve it seems?
Perhaps it is their higher up leaders that are the isolated ones in their oppulent offices and fancy uniforms?
Maybe, just maybe, those who need to adjust their thinking will realize that the people are their partners in maintaining law and order, not their enemy?
Maybe they will learn that honesty and truthfullness at the outset if far less dificult than cover ups and backpedaling? If not, we will administer more lessons, and more, and more. They still work for WE THE PEOPLE!
And TGIF
Nobody told Flaherty yet of the difference between markets and the economy. He says nobody should rest on their laurels….unfortunately, we don’t have no steenkin laurels.
Three fine men from Valcartier QC died during the last week.We are told they fought and died so Afghans can have a chance at living in a democratic society.
And here we are in Canada which is already supposed to be a democracy sending police officers into a peaceful demonstration to,as I said before,at the very least try and intimidate through fear.
If these three soldiers,who left behind young children,wives,parents, brothers and sisters died fighting for democracy in a foreigh country while at the same time our own country becomes less democratic,someone at the highest level of this Conservative government should be on his way to QC to explain this to their families.Then he should explain it to the rest of us.
I don’t know Adam. I might be one of those conspiracy theorists here. I think maybe the call came from Charest. Interesting though that the cause of all of this could be a former PCer turned Liberal. Ooops!
I am really shocked that security operations have been politicized. The role of police is to maintain security not to try to discredit legitimate protest which is what this was designed to accomplish.
One of the elements of this issue that no one appears to be considering it that it represents police taking a clearly political position by dressing undercover agents as provocateurs. Even if they did not act directly to promote violence their presence was designed to discredit peaceful protestors by focusing the media on their appearance.
It was an effective curb on peaceful protest as potential protestors began to question what was going on and stayed away.
One of the main problems with the RCMP is politicization and burearcratization of administration. This incident suggests a politicization of operations.
Scotian is correct: the security of international political leaders is under the direct command of the RCMP and unless things have changed in the last five years operations at that location would have been under a site commander from the RCMP. I cannot imagine that the Quebec Police would have operated outside the chain of command set up for the event.
And as to the APEC summit,maybe some in the media should start reviewing those to tapes to see if there are similarities.
“So how does this implicate the PMO??
You, Garth, alledged the PMO may be involved. Where is the evident of that?
You need to withdraw your reckless comments and appoligize.”
Jim,
I do not believe that you are naive enough to think that all details of the policing activities related to the conference were not reviewed and approved by the PMO and the U.S. & Mexican equivalents.
P.S.
Garth wrote “may” not was.
“what most major MSM outlets ignored”
3 Russian, 4 British, 5 Arabic, 3 Chinese, 1 Syrian, 1 Iranian, 1 Iraqi, and 3 Big Yankee blogs….so far! MSM is now just for comic relief!
By Charles Oxley on 08.23.07 11:44 pm
Actually Old Enough, since I retired (albeit unexpectedly) in Sept. 2000 due to a stroke, the only real joke now is reading all your (and others’) vitriolic neo-con right-wing drivel.
We, I truly am sorry to hear about the circumstances of your forced retirement. It must have felt good, however, to have signed the Collective Agreement CEP Local 2000/Kelowna Daily Courier – 2005-2008 five years in advance before your retirement.
BTW, which shop do you work at? Union or non-union? I’ve done both in Toronto, and generally found that the union shops are better organized and run a much more efficient operation.
The only unionized shop I worked in was when I was earning my wages to put myself through university. I was there long enough to become a member of the CAW at Budd Automotive. That summer, there was something like 34 illegal walkouts by a militant union. This was, of course, well before these types of jobs were subject to competition. Most individuals had, in my opinion, a very “me” attitude and sense of entitlement, and overall plant productivity fell as well, not unexpectedly.
By Herb on 08.24.07 7:57 am
Hilarious and no surprise. LOL
Dear Catherine:
I agree with you. Virginia’s clinical diagnosis of your condition is incorrect. You are not in denial, simply delusional. Your brain appears to operate much like a one way valve. Information comes out, but none seems to enter.
Are you unable to process the new revelations concerning this situation in real time? Why would you continue to advance notions such as “When Garth posted his original blog entry, he did not have proof that these 3 were undercover cops, did he?”
No he didn’t. So what’s your point? Do you want to set limits om the process of inquiry. Why would you want to set limits on the process of inquiry? What’s to be gained from knowing less as opposed to knowing more?
Obviously you have no understanding of how mankind advances his knowledge of the world around him. By positing hypotheses, such as “are these three individuals real protesters or are they mock protesters associated with the police?” and then testing that hypothesis with facts, observations and information, you are then able to ascertain the truth with the result that you learn something new.
Turns out we may have learned something new about Canada’s New Government in the process, at least for those whose thought processes aren’t governed by a one way valve of denial….. the more advanced form of which is delusion.
Okay, since we are speculating and accusing here, how about this one? How do we know that if in fact they were members of the Quebec force that these weren’t Liberal friendly officers acting on requests from certain people to screw this summit up as much as possible for the PM and create a scandal? Huh? How do ya know? Now wouldn’t THAT rot your socks!
I cannot imagine that the Quebec Police would have operated outside the chain of command set up for the event.
By C. B. Innes on 08.24.07 9:29 am
I will revise this comment. I have been told that the commander of the unit involved would have been allowed to use discretion to carry out the duties assigned as he or she saw fit. Putting police officers disguised as provocateurs in a position being protected by organizers for their peaceful protestors is incompetent if not politically motivated.
By Pecked to death by ducks on 08.24.07 8:33 am
BBBBBBBBBbbbbrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrahahahahaha
“So when you’re laughing, oh when you’re laughing, the whole world laughs AT you (including most of the media)”
Pecked, I’m still waiting for those regs you claim you can tweak and allow bulk water sales.
Btw, if you go by my original post, I still stand by this statement, which has yet to be proven wrong “(personally, if I was a betting man, I’d say it was some ill thought out idea by a local enforcement guy.”
And apart from the allegations, there is no proof that these guys were agent provocateurs, a term most people, I’m sure, had never heard more than two days ago, and still probably don’t know what it means, or when to use it properly, with proof (“ahem” our distinguished bloghost updater).
Okay, since we are speculating and accusing here, how about this one? How do we know that if in fact they were members of the Quebec force that these weren’t Liberal friendly officers acting on requests from certain people to screw this summit up as much as possible for the PM and create a scandal? Huh? How do ya know? Now wouldn’t THAT rot your socks!
By Leasa on 08.24.07 10:07 am
It doesn’t rot my socks, but it sure stretches them a lot..
I can’t help but notice how yesterdays nay saying, doubt casting, anti free speech crowd continue to attempt to fight a rear guard action that has become nothing less than pitiful at this point.
Now, lean close to your monitor those of you who have been left behind and left out of the marching Mulroneyism Legions, especially the Major Hooples and Beetle Baileys….
The wise Soldier knows not to attempt to defend an indefensible position.
So shaddup already.
I think the penny dropped for many today, sparked by the revelations of this incident. Our tax money is being used against us.
Things are not going to change until we take an active role in the next election. You have the power and it’s made up of rights. Use them or lose them. (To paraphrase The Flaming Lips – The W.A.N.D.)
Adam and Leasa,
the way to deal with this situation is not to be innocent, obtuse or partisan. If you do not see the problem, you are wasting your time on a political blog (unless your blindness is in the line of political duty).
The truth (of who “made the call”, for instance) will not surface of itself because it would be too painful for the authorities involved. Of course, Harper could empanel an independent inquiry, but I suggest we not hold our breath. The best hope for those who blew it is a low profile and time to let things fade in memory.
Ah Hogan,
Still clueless after all these years.
Ahahahahahahahahaha.
Have a nice delusional day!
Since we’re on the ludicrous conspiracy theories…i thought i would contribute.
I think Gilles Duceppe did it because he didn’t want President Bush in his Nation!
Old Enough, you are becoming incoherent. Stay calm. Breathe deep the gathering gloom. Follow the low spark of boot heeled boyz.
Hey there, what’s that sound? Step out of line…
By Herb on 08.24.07 10:33 am
So what you are saying is that there should be an inquiry into this, at a cost of who knows how many millions of tax payers dollars. I’m glad to see that your liberal wallet is overflowing with money.
If you would have read my post properly, i believe that i did point out that the QPP actions were a problem.
Given that this issue came to light very quickly, is in the mass media and all over the internet (there have been more than 220 posts on this blog alone), someone will need to save face, and someone will be found guilty pretty quickly.
Just be patient.As we all know, government (at any level) doesn’t move very quickly.
Ah Hogan,
Still clueless after all these years.
Ahahahahahahahahaha.
Have a nice delusional day!
By Frank Frink on 08.24.07 10:33 am
Thank you loonie-left.
How do we know that if in fact they were members of the Quebec force that these weren’t Liberal friendly officers acting on requests from certain people to screw this summit up as much as possible for the PM and create a scandal? Huh? How do ya know? Now wouldn’t THAT rot your socks!
By Leasa on 08.24.07 10:07 am
There is a simple response to that one. Stockwell Day has refused to investigate the matter. If there was anything to suggest that this was a Liberal conspiracy he would be immediately starting an investigation.
The police officers that went under cover to investigate the protest were there to monitor and collect information. How ridiculous is it to imply that they were involved in illegal activity and trying to start a riot. That is a real slap in the face to all police officers across Canada. Whatever police were in the crowd disguised as protesters were there because they needed to be. I don’t see what the big deal is? Maybe we should have a national registry that lists all undercover officers and their assignments on a website so we can all discuss the legitimacy of the assignments?
Catherine & Lisa, please please dear ladies give your head a shake. I do not want to be unkind but please listen to yourself….. What most are asking for is the TRUTH, and in this case it clear as a full moon in a August sky, PMSH and Co. are dead silient when it comes to the truth. I will pay for the taxi fare for PMSH, Stockwell Day and Wild Bill Elliot to stand in front of H of C and answer all Garth’s questions in front of the camera’s. You both are invited to stand beside him. Do you have the backbone to listen and watch. Ready? if not re-read what you have said and think next time. Please.
OK
Has ANYONE in here lived through any sort of a summit? Honestly…ANYONE? I should be listening for an echo in here as I expect maybe one or two, and THAT IS IT!
By Steve on 08.24.07 1:17 am
Yeah Steve, I did – a G8 Summit here in Halifax. I was working just above the site and what a helluva disruption to just about everyone in the downtown core. My DH has various RCMP acquaintances/friends and he heard lots of stories. One funny one. RCMP got together with a bunch of GWB’s personal security team night before the summit started. Took them out to a few local pubs. GWB’s guys, not used to Cdn beer, got bombed. That’s all I’ll say. You can use your imagination.
I wouldn’t put it past any Cdn Govt or the RCMP to infiltrate protesters as they did. If you think otherwise, you’re naive!!! That’s not to say its not despicable.
Geez, you are still going on about this topic? get a life. The Cops are BUSTED! Period. It is not a political issue, it is a simple issue…they lied, they got caught.
And all the Left Right crap is tiresome.
Here is how it looks
!,,, (Left)
,,,! (Right)
!,,! Both fighting
,!,, Centrist to both extremes.
James – that’s a great idea! Wouldn’t we be surprised. Well, some of us at least.
The police officers that went under cover to investigate the protest were there to monitor and collect information. How ridiculous is it to imply that they were involved in illegal activity and trying to start a riot. That is a real slap in the face to all police officers across Canada. Whatever police were in the crowd disguised as protesters were there because they needed to be. I don’t see what the big deal is? Maybe we should have a national registry that lists all undercover officers and their assignments on a website so we can all discuss the legitimacy of the assignments?
By James on 08.24.07 11:14 am
What is with the rocks they were holding and the way they shoved a elder Union Leader when he questioned their presence!?
People!! What is all the hullaballoo?! This is SOP for the police. Attend any fairly large picketing group, strike or large gathering and you’re bound to find some undercover police officers there.
The only difference this time, is that the SQ buffoons weren’t so good at the ‘undercover’ part.
The police officers that went under cover to investigate the protest were there to monitor and collect information. How ridiculous is it to imply that they were involved in illegal activity and trying to start a riot. That is a real slap in the face to all police officers across Canada. Whatever police were in the crowd disguised as protesters were there because they needed to be. I don’t see what the big deal is? Maybe we should have a national registry that lists all undercover officers and their assignments on a website so we can all discuss the legitimacy of the assignments?
By James on 08.24.07 11:14 am
What is with the rocks they were holding and the way they shoved an
elder Union Leader when he questioned their presence!?
Like many others, I’m outraged at the behaviour of the police in this event. It is simply unacceptable that the police force would try to incite protestors into doing things that would land them in trouble. To try and spin the actions any other way is fooling yourself.
There should be a public inquiry into this. Until someone stands up and claims accountability and heads roll, I don’t believe the Canadian public will stand silent. Law Enforement in Canada has just given themselves a very big black eye, and their creditabiity will not be restored, with me anyhow, until this matter is fully explained.
Dear James:
How correct you are in saying;
“That is a real slap in the face to all police officers across Canada.”
The gross incompetence of these amateur undercover sleuths is an embarrassment to all competent law enforcement professional across the country. The real slap in the face however came from the upper commanders who were adamant in their initial denial of any such thing and their subsequent sheepish and contained admission of the partial truth. These upper echelon officers either didn’t know what was occurring within the ranks of their command or don’t understand the value that all members of a civilized society place on the truth. Instead their knee jerk instinct was to lie in the face of abundant information to the contrary. Truly a slap in the face of all police officers across Canada.
Kind of makes you wonder about the wisdom of Harper’s concept of having the police involved in the appointment of the judiciary, assuming that this concept didn’t already strike you as wholly inappropriate in the first place.
Police vetting of judicial appointments would be the ultimate slap in the face of an independent judiciary and judicial system where the police have to make their case on its own factual merits. This incident shows how readily some in the police services are to lie to protect themselves from the embarrassment often associated with the truth.
If on the other hand you were arguing the opposite side of this argument, then you must think that police officers across the nation are a bunch of easily offended wimps unconcerned about maintaining the integrity of law and order and the perceptions held by the public for whom their mission is to serve and protect.
Whose interests do you suppose were foremost in the minds of those who issued these denials. Those who serve and protect, or those who are served and protected? Or was it a case of these lies being served up to simply protect the guilty?
(PS This is a rhetorical question)
RCMP is out of control.
The alarm signal should have been when they sent Maher Arar to torture.
And after that they tried to cover it up.
I’m pretty sure Harper has some kind of involvement. This is standard neo-con “modus operandi”.
Your taxpayer money at work Canada: masked RCMP goons with boulders.
On a separate note, Mr.Dion is a big disappointment. With PQ and NDP ready to vote for a troop pull out, it came down to Dion. He is responsible for yesterday’s deaths in Afghanistan. Without him propping Harper, our boys would have been out of there by now.
We will get out in 2009 or sooner. Afghanistan will be just the same or worse. Higher poppy harvest for sure. Maybe a few hundred Canadian causalities and a few more billions spent on tanks.
I was hopping you Mr. Turner can figure out faster a bad investment. And this one doesn’t bring any dividends and it won’t be coming back like some of the income trusts stocks.
It’s time to cut our losses and move on Mr. Turner. You could make a difference. A big one! Many parents will thank you.
Re comments By kpn on 08.24.07 11:25 am
I will take issue with your recollection of this event.
I was at the G7 in Halifax and at that time Bill Clinton was President. As far as I know there has been no such summit since.
At that time there was little indication of protestors except for some placards. Protest groups did hold meetings nearby but they were extremely peaceful. Some of the leaders even mixed freely with the crowds. There was heavy security with snipers on roof tops and undercover agents in the crowds but no problems unless someone tried to enter secured areas.
The following day Boris Yeltsin arrived to meet with G7 leaders. The next year I believe it was renamed as the G8 summit.
Quebec police to address summit concerns
Canadian Press
August 24, 2007 at 11:53 AM EDT
MONTREAL — Quebec provincial police are holding a news conference later today to explain why three of its agents played the part of protesters at this week’s North American Leaders’ summit in Montebello, Que.
After originally denying it, the Quebec force has admitted the undercover officers were involved in the protest after a video clip of the trio showed up on the popular website, Youtube.com.
But Quebec provincial police are denying they were attempting to provoke protesters into violence.
Rather, they say the three officers were planted in the crowd to locate any protesters who were not peacefully demonstrating.
CTV Newsnet: David Akin on the fake summit protesters
The force will hold the news conference at 3:30 p.m. at its downtown Montreal headquarters.
Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day has already rejected opposition calls for an inquiry.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070824.wquebcpol0824/BNStory/National/home
Herb:
“I know that a larger-than- normal CPC troll patrol tried, but where is a comment that achieved the putative slamming?”
Same thing happened at The Globe and Mail, other media sites with comment sections and at blogs.
You just said what I did, I used the colloquialism.
A lot of bloggers worked hard to get this story out, I was one of them.
I appreciate your kind blog mention, if you need to label me because of a colloquialism upset you – then extend both of us the courtesy of actually commenting at BDBO or send me an email.
C.B. Innes you are correct. The G7 then was exceptionally peaceful. Families gathered along the street to watch and wave flags at the parade of limos. One headline in the Directory of News Releases has an entry “Delegates and Staff Get Mugged”…referring to the passing out of Environmentally Friendly Mugs in the Press Kits.
Some may respond by saying…Yea, that was 1998. The world has changed since then.
Yea, hasn’t it? Terrorists have tried to steal our rights. Don’t let them win.
Make your vote count and enlist others on the side of truth and rights. Take our Democracy back.
Here is an excerpt which is both relevant and would surprise many as to it’s origin. Don’t look at the bottom before you read it. That would be cheating, and you don’t want to admit you are a cheater right? Let’s see how many of you pass the test. Only you will you know.
When the nations on this planet fight for existence-when the question of destiny, ‘to be or not to be,’ cries out for a solution-then all considerations of humanitarianism or aesthetics crumble into nothingness; for all these concepts do not float about in the ether, they arise from man’s imagination and are bound up with man. When he departs from this world, these concepts are again dissolved into nothingness, for Nature does not know them. And even among mankind, they belong only to a few nations or rather races, and this in proportion as they emanate from the feeling of the nation or race in question. Humanitarianism and aesthetics would vanish even from a world inhabited by man if this world were to lose the races that have created and upheld these concepts.
But all such concepts become secondary when a nation is fighting for its existence; in fact, they become totally irrelevant to the forms of the struggle as soon as a situation arises where they might paralyze a struggling nation’s power of self-preservation. And that has always been their only visible result.
As for humanitarianism, Moltke said years ago that in war it lies in the brevity of the operation, and that means that the most aggressive fighting technique is the most humane.
But when people try to approach these questions with drivel about aesthetics, etc., really only one answer is possible: where the destiny and existence of a people are at stake, all obligation toward beauty ceases. The most unbeautiful thing there can be in human life is and remains the yoke of slavery.
Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Sean..if you are a R.C., I would suggest you have a little chat with your Pastor. Catholics in the Roman Rite do not believe in the literal interpretation of the scriptures, rather we use the Historical Critical Method. If you are not R.C., then be my guest and interpret it however you wish.
Geoffrey, So when exactly did we get confirmation from a Police agency in Canada that those 3 men were officers from their organization? I understand that is merely speculation right now. If I am wrong and an agency has come foward to say those 3 men were in fact police officers, then please give me a link to it.
Three fine men from Valcartier QC died during the last week.We are told they fought and died so Afghans can have a chance at living in a democratic society.
And here we are in Canada which is already supposed to be a democracy sending police officers into a peaceful demonstration to,as I said before,at the very least try and intimidate through fear.
If these three soldiers,who left behind young children,wives,parents, brothers and sisters died fighting for democracy in a foreigh country while at the same time our own country becomes less democratic,someone at the highest level of this Conservative government should be on his way to QC to explain this to their families.Then he should explain it to the rest of us.
By Ted Browne on 08.24.07 9:17 am
Well put. I would just add that there have been many more than 3 soldiers who have been killed or wounded in this war action and all of them are equally dishonoured by this type of behaviour within our democracy by the government. And yes I do believe the police at a Leaders Summit are in fact representatives of the government. Seems clear who should be answering to the people about this.
Sean..if you are a R.C., I would suggest you have a little chat with your Pastor. Catholics in the Roman Rite do not believe in the literal interpretation of the scriptures, rather we use the Historical Critical Method. If you are not R.C., then be my guest and interpret it however you wish.
By pjw on 08.24.07 12:30 pm
You mean that the Catholic church doesn’t believe in one man, one woman marriage?
Now, what part of the Bible were you referring?
Law Enforement in Canada has just given themselves a very big black eye, and their creditabiity will not be restored, with me anyhow, until this matter is fully explained.
By Joe T. on 08.24.07 11:44 am
I appreciate your sentiments Joe, but the reality is they really don’t care. Anyone hear of Ian Bush and a little place called Houston, B.C.? Then there’s the anonymous 12 regarding the RCMP inquiry. The PC chair said, I don’t know what they have to say, so why should we hear them? They are hiding behind their Lawyers and have a duty to uphold the Law. Words to that effect.
Always remember, above all else Police forces are the paramilitary wing of Government and will be employed / deployed accordingly.
Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
By Greg on 08.24.07 12:26 pm
No, not surprising when one understand the context of which he speaks. Entirely evil really. L
hard to fathom how anyone can say it is SOP for the police to infiltrate a protest. This is not supposed to be a police state. It has nothing to do with the nature of the group they are watching… they could be stamp collectors for arguments sake. Point is that this is entire issue is that the government and the RCMP have decided that the protesters are guilty. If they thought otherwise… they’d ALL be behind their own line sipping coffee.
and the only thing they were guilty of is opposing the process of the SPP, secrecy of the negiations, etc. Last I checked it was healthy in a democratic society to express desenting opinion.
Seems to me that MP’s from both sides should be able to stand together and confront the PM on this. This has at this point become a significant distraction, probably planned that way.. so now we have gone down the police infiltrator rabit hole and stopped talking about the fact the the SPP discussions are completely out of control of Parlement – meaning the people are not being informed and not allowed a say if the majority even want to be part of this. This is the real argument that Congress in the US has started and several states also ratified not to participate.
Lets move on the that since it seems clear there are people in political and police that are corrupt.
Get the depths of the purposes of the SPP agenda’s into full disclosure and then a reasonable public debate an begin. This goes beyond partisanship at this point. It will take one MP to provide leadership…
If these three soldiers,who left behind young children,wives,parents, brothers and sisters died fighting for democracy in a foreigh country while at the same time our own country becomes less democratic,someone at the highest level of this Conservative government should be on his way to QC to explain this to their families.Then he should explain it to the rest of us.
By Ted Browne on 08.24.07 9:17 am
Got news for you Ted, its been a long time since Canadians have felt that the government is democratic. I give you the GST debacle where Mulroney brought in Dr. Keon to push the vote over in the Senate. I give you Trudeau, who gave the finger to Canadians in the west, I give you Chretien who pushes a protestor by the face and Shawinigate and so on and so on. How about the pepper spray incident too?
Face it, its the same pattern used by the Libs and the Conservatives when they’re in power.
Oh and PJW, look, I’m criticizing the Conservatives.
RCMP is out of control.
The alarm signal should have been when they sent Maher Arar to torture.
And after that they tried to cover it up.
I’m pretty sure Harper has some kind of involvement. This is standard neo-con “modus operandiâ€.
By Solitario on 08.24.07 11:54 am
Are you kidding me!!! check your facts…Arar happened under the Liberal watch friend…..
Oh could you please give the the figures on that? Never mind, that’s the kind of stupid question you would ask! I am surprised you would make such a generalized statement with out factual evidence to back it up…oh, I understand, you can make gereral statements when it suit you but challange anyone else who does….double standard even for a child Hogan!
By pjw on 08.23.07 3:58 pm
Okay, let me make this very simple. Check out and see in the video how many protestors you see and you’ll find out that you could probably count them at less than 30. That speaks volumes, maybe not to you, but it is self-evident to those who are objective.
Yes, Steve, I’ve lived through two. Well, actually two and half so to speak.
The 1997 APEC summit in at UBC in Vancouver. The infamous Hughie ‘Sgt. Pepper’ Stewart incident.
And then the infamous 1998 ‘Riot at the Hyatt’. I live about a block and half from the downtown Vancouver Hyatt.
Come to think of it, because of where I reside I also had a ‘front row seat’ from my living room to the 1994 Stanley Cup riot in Vancouver.
Yep. I’ve seen things get out of hand.
I could tell immediately from the body language etc… in the video that those three were police plants.
Other incidents I’ve lived through, as a child or adolescent in this case – the various St, Jean Baptiste parades in Montreal that turned into riots in the late 60′s; the random FLQ bombs in Montreal through the 60′s; and the 1970 October Crisis when the Army was patrolling the streets of Montreal.
RCMP is out of control.
The alarm signal should have been when they sent Maher Arar to torture.
And after that they tried to cover it up.
I’m pretty sure Harper has some kind of involvement. This is standard neo-con “modus operandiâ€.
Your taxpayer money at work Canada: masked RCMP goons with boulders.
On a separate note, Mr.Dion is a big disappointment. With PQ and NDP ready to vote for a troop pull out, it came down to Dion. He is responsible for yesterday’s deaths in Afghanistan. Without him propping Harper, our boys would have been out of there by now.
We will get out in 2009 or sooner. Afghanistan will be just the same or worse. Higher poppy harvest for sure. Maybe a few hundred Canadian causalities and a few more billions spent on tanks.
I was hopping you Mr. Turner can figure out faster a bad investment. And this one doesn’t bring any dividends and it won’t be coming back like some of the income trusts stocks.
It’s time to cut our losses and move on Mr. Turner. You could make a difference. A big one! Many parents will thank you.
By Solitario on 08.24.07 11:54 am
Your kidding right? The deaths of the soldiers is on Mr. Dion…… HE is the one propping up the current government??? Buddy, did you just wake up a few minutes ago from a long long nap? The liberal party has YET to prop up this crumbling government. Take a long hard look at the PQ. THEY are the ones that kept this train wreck moving forward. NOT the liberals. Sorry to burst your little bubble.
And even on that note. How could it even POSSIBLY be the liberals, the NDP, the PQ’s fault. They are NOT the governing parties are they? No, if it is ANYONE’S fault it is the con party. THEY are the ones that decide where the military goes and when they come back. They have that control, no one else does. So get off the high horse and back down to reality.
James on 08.24.07 12:31 pm
*sigh*
The Surete Quebec issued a media release (une communique) last night explicity stating that the three men in the video were indeed officers from their force. There’s still a whole lot of spin in that relase, though.
Here’s the link (it’s in French)
http://www.suretequebec.gouv.qc.ca/accueil/communiques/2007/20070823_02.html
By Angry Canadian on 08.24.07 12:50 pm
At the beginning of this book, it is very hard to follow as it seems amateurish, but as it progresses, I guess via practice Hitler articulates much better and it becomes easier to draw parallels to modern society and the lessons many have learned from Hitlers ideologies and mistakes in implementing them. It’s a hell of a read.
The section on Propaganda, from where the above passage came from is especially interesting.
Your kidding right? The deaths of the soldiers is on Mr. Dion…… HE is the one propping up the current government??? Buddy, did you just wake up a few minutes ago from a long long nap? The liberal party has YET to prop up this crumbling government. Take a long hard look at the PQ. THEY are the ones that kept this train wreck moving forward. NOT the liberals. Sorry to burst your little bubble.
By SJ on 08.24.07 1:01 pm
Actually SJ, the Libs are propping up the CPC right now because they are against Duceppe, who wants to topple the government if they don’t have an emergency meeting on Afganistan. Dion said that he’ll oppose Duceppe. It hasn’t come to a vote yet, mind you, but that is what Dion is saying.
Get the depths of the purposes of the SPP agenda’s into full disclosure and then a reasonable public debate an begin. This goes beyond partisanship at this point. It will take one MP to provide leadership…
By American in Milton on 08.24.07 12:53 pm
Absolutely, let’s not forget the simple strategy of divide and conquer. Yet, we should recognize the powerful tool which has been placed in the hands of proponents of free speech with catching the oppressor with pants, er mask down.
Does anyone have a Commodore computer laying around to keep James up to date?
Hey Garth, the news that these 3 protesters were actually undercover cops is outrageous: does this Conservative government believe protesters are criminals or something? Such undercover tactics are usually reserved for testing the will of drug smugglers and criminals, NOT protesters.
It’s days like these that make me glad that freedom of speech and assembly is protected under the Charter, ‘subject only to such reasonable limits as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society’(section 1b of the Charter)
Only one thing will come of this event:
There will be regulations to ban cameras from demonstrations, for your own good,
going forward 
Sean..if you are a R.C., I would suggest you have a little chat with your Pastor. Catholics in the Roman Rite do not believe in the literal interpretation of the scriptures, rather we use the Historical Critical Method. If you are not R.C., then be my guest and interpret it however you wish.
By pjw on 08.24.07 12:30 pm
You mean that the Catholic church doesn’t believe in one man, one woman marriage?
Now, what part of the Bible were you referring?
By Sean P. Hogan on 08.24.07 12:44 pm
Sean, as a Church we have dogma, doctrine and the scriptures, the scriptures I am refering to are the ones we use? I did not mention marriage at all. I am refering to the method of intpretation we use as a community. Do you not agree with the Catholic Church on its method of interpretation? If you are Roman Catholic, you can get a copy of St. Jerome’s biblcal commentary which will spell it all out for you. If you are not Roman Catholic, then just forget it. My only point was to inform you, you obviously aren’t interested since you want to speak to specific issues, you can ask your pastor those questions, he will be happy to answer them.
OK
Has ANYONE in here lived through any sort of a summit? Honestly…ANYONE? I should be listening for an echo in here as I expect maybe one or two, and THAT IS IT!
By Steve on 08.24.07 1:17 am
Yeah Steve, I did – a G8 Summit here in Halifax. I was working just above the site and what a helluva disruption to just about everyone in the downtown core. My DH has various RCMP acquaintances/friends and he heard lots of stories. One funny one. RCMP got together with a bunch of GWB’s personal security team night before the summit started. Took them out to a few local pubs. GWB’s guys, not used to Cdn beer, got bombed. That’s all I’ll say. You can use your imagination.
I wouldn’t put it past any Cdn Govt or the RCMP to infiltrate protesters as they did. If you think otherwise, you’re naive!!! That’s not to say its not despicable.
By kpn on 08.24.07 11:25 am
Re comments By kpn on 08.24.07 11:25 am
I will take issue with your recollection of this event.
I was at the G7 in Halifax and at that time Bill Clinton was President. As far as I know there has been no such summit since.
At that time there was little indication of protestors except for some placards. Protest groups did hold meetings nearby but they were extremely peaceful. Some of the leaders even mixed freely with the crowds. There was heavy security with snipers on roof tops and undercover agents in the crowds but no problems unless someone tried to enter secured areas.
The following day Boris Yeltsin arrived to meet with G7 leaders. The next year I believe it was renamed as the G8 summit.
By C. B. Innes on 08.24.07 12:07 pm
Hey C.B. I was not talking about protesters. I merely indicated that there was a lot of disruption months/days prior to the summit because of security. BTW, I have particpated in public protests – last one was the nurse’ stike, IIRC. I’d do more if my health permitted.
And, I also believe that if it weren’t for unions Cdn workers would have little or no rights. In 68/69 I was one of the front line people who worked tirelessly at night to help establish a union for Fed. secretaries across Canada. I was with the foreign service at the time. The FS officers had their own little union, but basically didn’t want us to have one. Tho we were in a very different situation from other secty’s in the Fed govt., we had to get a majority vote from all secty’s acros Canada working for the fed govt. We got responses such as – why do I have to belong to a union – my hubby already does!! Duh. Well, we succeeded. But, during the process, most of us got transferred to positions where we were not allowed to have anything to do with union activities. I worked for the feds 3+ yrs and 26 yrs for the province and I know that if you speak up, try and show the wastefullness and, outright ‘fraud’ and ineptness of ‘higher ups’, you’ll be punished, in not so subtle ways. I’ve personally, as an IT business analyst, seen millions of $$ wasted. Every dept. is out to protect their own territory and, spend whatever $$ maybe left on frivoulous things, during the last month of the budget year, as their next year’s budget is based on the previous one. Call me a cynic about politicians, I don’t give a damn. But, ABC is my motto. I detested the Chretien/ ADSCAM fiasco, but HARPO & his stooges are more scary than anything I’ve ever seen in Cdn politics.
By Pecked to death by ducks on 08.24.07 1:22 pm
Does anyone have a Commodore computer laying around to keep James up to date?
Do you mean one of those huge, cumbersome, awkward to carry, Zurassic era computers the size of a huge boulder?
But union leader Dave Coles, one of the organizers of the demonstration, said Monday’s incident went beyond any undercover police officer’s mandate.
“We’re not talking about someone that’s in plainclothes just walking amongst them. They were there armed with boulders. I witnessed them trying to incite a riot. I saw it,†said Mr. Coles, of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada.
“I asked them to put the boulder down. They refused to. They were there to provoke trouble.â€
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070824.wvideo24/BNStory/National/
(notice how the description, in the course of one paragraph went from “they” “and boulders” to “them” and “the boulder”)
Sounds like Dave desperately needs to get his rocks off.
“Boulderdash”
SJ,
Dion could bring down Harper’s government tomorrow if he wants to, IMHO.
NDP and PQ would vote for Afghanistan pullout.
I would like to read Mr.Turner comments on the issue.
Adam,
Please read my comment again. I didn’t say Harper’s at fault for Arar’s torture.
The out-of -control RCMP is and the Liberals bear the political responsibility.
Harper’s is on the hook for masked goons with boulders. RCMP still out of control. And that will be the case as long as Harper’s in power.
Harper owes them -the RCMP- big.
Bene D,
forgive me if I misinterpreted your “got slammed into the middle of next week” as another of the fraudulent neo-Con claims I have grown allergic to on Garth’s blog. I did not realize that you were referring to the number of comments. To me it smacked of “got knocked for six”, to use an older colloquialism.
Be happy to apologize on your blog, if you think it warranted. In any case, I take back the “Male Diction”.
Re: comments By kpn on 08.24.07 1:51 pm
If you want to get a real perspective on disruption you should spend some time in Washington. If we want to be involved in international affairs we must at times put up with some disruption. If we want the right to unionize we have to put with disruptions.
I am not sure why you got the impression that I was opposed to all union activity. Unions are like all other organizations; they can cause just as much disruption as other self-serving organizations. I have not had positive personal experiences with unions so I am probably not someone you would like to engage on the issue. That being said I recognize their important to any democratic system.
You know, it’s all too delicious to see them bludgeoned with their own jackboots (pun intended)
Isn’t it pitiable when all Stockwell Day can find to defend / hide behind, is the old stalwart bureaucracy. How disingenuous is that? May the fleas of a Thousand Prairie Dogs infest his armpits.
I see Major Hoople, Supreme Commander of the Western Prairie Dog Brigade has called a tactical retreat of all forces to the burrows in order to regroup.
If you have bandaged the wounds and repaired the supply line, you can prepare to return to the next blog.
Comrade sniper awaits you with bated breath!
By Solitario on 08.24.07 11:54 am
On a separate note, Mr.Dion is a big disappointment. With PQ and NDP ready to vote for a troop pull out, it came down to Dion. He is responsible for yesterday’s deaths in Afghanistan. Without him propping Harper, our boys would have been out of there by now.
Under what rock have you been living for the last 6 months Solitarioa???
Herb: No apology needed, I don’t know if I’ll ever get used to some neo-con repetitiveness.
One Blogging Tory kept an open mind the last few days. One. So-con blogs – not a peep.
You’re welcome anytime, I appreciate the mention and your willingness to explain.
PJW, I am Roman Catholic, and yes, I am interested in what your telling me here. I just would like to know which parts of the Bible you believe that Catholics do not take literally?
As well, I was wondering how this applies to what I’ve said about Clinton and Carter, or does it? Forgive me, I am a little confused, my fault, I’m not quite following exactly what you’re telling me.
I gave marriage as an example of how the Catholic Church takes the Bible literally.
By kpn on 08.24.07 2:28 pm
Apparently the same rock I have been under. Now let’s look at this analytically and without partisanship.
The first time the ducks get in a row to bring Harper down, where does Mr. Dion do? Go off course. Why? Everyone knows the opinion polls right?
The question I have, is how many young Canadian lives need be sacrificed for political expediency? I heard the talk, and although it may delude some, he needs to walk the walk if he is to have credibility. He said he wants to wait until he hears what the government says in the fall. Really..
2 days before he releases a statement prioritizing commitment to Afghan withdrawal, then runs for cover at the first opportunity to make good.
I learned a lesson when I was young and asked a old guy if he would take $600 for a horse? He stepped up to me, put his hand on my shoulder, looked me in the eye, and said,”Is that an offer young fella?” First rule of salesmanship, seize the moment. First rule of Honor, back up what you say..
By Greg on 08.24.07 2:24 pm
Comrade sniper awaits you with bated breath!
Sounds like something the occupant of a trout farm would speak with some conviction.
(sorry Herb, but he’s been trying so hard for some attention lately. Just like a pet dog, you have to throw him a treat once in a while or he goes off and bites somneone )
Re: comments By kpn on 08.24.07 1:51 pm
If you want to get a real perspective on disruption you should spend some time in Washington. If we want to be involved in international affairs we must at times put up with some disruption. If we want the right to unionize we have to put with disruptions.
CB I agree – sorry, but the way you initially responded seemed like an attack on me. Maybe I’m too sensitive for forums like this. BTW, since GWB got into power I swore I would not set foot in the US until he & his controllers – Rove/Cheney/Rummy/Frum, et al – were out of the picture. Rove has resigned but you can be sure he’s behind the scenes. I’ll not spend a dime or a minute of my time in that country until GWB is toally out of the picture. And even then, I’ll consider who’se in power.
Re unions, agree there are negatives & positives, but believe that if it weren’t for unions initially, we’d still have companies totally taking advantage of employees. Just look at China and most of the third world – hey even the the 1st world.
I am not sure why you got the impression that I was opposed to all union activity. Unions are like all other organizations; they can cause just as much disruption as other self-serving organizations. I have not had positive personal experiences with unions so I am probably not someone you would like to engage on the issue. That being said I recognize their important to any democratic system.
By C. B. Innes on 08.24.07 2:18 pm
C.B. – Sorry, I perceived, for lack of a better word, that you were taking me for a neo-
Harper’s is on the hook for masked goons with boulders. RCMP still out of control. And that will be the case as long as Harper’s in power.
Harper owes them -the RCMP- big.
By Solitario on 08.24.07 2:11 pm
Why – it was the Quebec Provincial police that did this? So unless you have evidence that the RCMP gave orders to the Quebec police, you should not jump to conclusion and make unfounded accusations.
“And you, Scotian, are jumping to conclusions that it was the mandate given to all police officers to agitate and throw rocks and molif cocktails and burn stuff in Montebello.
Now, be a good boy, and make an appointment with Virginia, the therapist, about your conspiracy delusions or at least why you need to make mountains out of mole hills. Not everything in life is that important!”
By Catherine on 08.24.07 4:59 am
And you are putting words in my mouth to create a straw argument and then go on to make ad hominem attacks, must be because you cannot actually using the facts in an honest manner refute what I wrote. I never said anything that can be construed as this except in your fevered imaginings “…that it was the mandate given to all police officers to agitate and throw rocks and molif cocktails and burn stuff in Montebello.”, and your quote from my comment certainly does not say any such thing. What it DOES say is that there is no way the SQ were the ones in operational control of a transnational Head of government/State meeting on Canadian soil and therefore to argue the SQ were the ones in operational control makes no logical sense.
You appear to have this need to put words in others peoples mouths Catherine, why is that? Can it be that you are inherently dishonest by nature? Can it be you do not know how to read plain English? Could it be you are more interested in being a propagandist? Could it be you are incapable of perceiving reality and therefore are suffering delusions? Or could it simply be you are a poor excuse for a citizen and human being? Really, I do not know, nor do I overly care, especially since you discredit your own attempts at discrediting others by being so dishonest as you were when you foolishly put words in my mouth that the quote of mine you used clearly did not state nor even imply.
I would suggest that you might be better served taking your own advice to me as it is clear that you not only have difficulties with reality and comprehension but also have a problem with engaging in baseless attacks on the personal nature of someone you disagree with, especially when you do not know that person, solely because you disagree and/or do not like what they are saying. Next time, try to at least argue against what I actually said instead of going off into fantasy land, especially when you in the middle of doing so are claiming I am the one in fantasy land. Not only is it dishonest it is blatantly obvious what you are doing to all except those that like yourself are preprogrammed to act in the manner you did in the defence of your preferred political party. No challenge at all.
BTW, isn’t it Harper and the CPC that believe that the media suffers from a (L)liberal media bias where there is a conspiracy out to hurt Conservatives and help Liberals in the media and the CBC is a Liberal party organ? That is the very definition of a conspiracy theory yet that doesn’t appear to bother you or give your fellow CPC fans any problems. Why is that I wonder…could it be because it suits your paranoia and gives you a way to explain the lack of success of the Reform/CA/CPC in this country instead of facing the simpler explanation that simply the ideology/agenda was not one most voters agreed with nor wanted? Sheesh, what arrant stupidity in action on that conspiracy theory, yet it is accepted as proven fact/truth within CPC circles from Harper on down, so I guess that conspiracy theory isn’t a problem in your eyes while my concerns about where the orders for the provocateurs came from and why they were there with the clear intent on inciting trouble since they would not drop the rock even when the other protestors demanded that be done is somehow an outlandish conspiracy theory despite the actual facts as they currently are known.
The facts being the trio were undercover cops, one was carrying a potentially lethal weapon (the rock), refused to put it down when demanded to by other protestors including an organizer, then once the other protestors start thinking they are undercover slink over to the police to get away all the while still holding that rock. The SQ initially issued a flat denial, and then a day later says they were undercover but were only identified because they wouldn’t throw the rock despite the clear proof to the contrary on the video recording. The RCMP were the force in overall operational control here because of the nature of the meeting, as is the norm, and no one knows where the orders came from for this infiltration nor why there was the clear intent to incite/provoke a violent scene at the meeting site of the three leaders of Canada, USA, and Mexico by these undercover cops. That is not conspiracy theory, that is simply reality, and a reality it appears you cannot handle, although why do I suspect that if this were a Liberal government in Ottawa that this happened under you would be screaming political interference? Oh, I know, because you are acting in the manner of a CPC apologist instead of someone worried that the rights of all Canadians to peacefully protest government policy are endangered by this type of conduct. Some commitment to democracy you are showing there along with your preference for ad hominem attacks.
We, I truly am sorry to hear about the circumstances of your forced retirement. It must have felt good, however, to have signed the Collective Agreement CEP Local 2000/Kelowna Daily Courier – 2005-2008 five years in advance before your retirement.
The only unionized shop I worked in was when I was earning my wages to put myself through university. . . .
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.24.07 9:51 am
Good afternoon, Old Enough. Trust you are fine and well.
You were smart to go to university. I began my apprenticeship when I was 15, so I’m not very intelligent. Couldn’t stand school – the girls were nice, but that’s about it.
Remember linotypes, ludlows, the foundry where all the lead was melted down and resurfaced as lead bars again? Well I don’t have lead poisoning.
As far as signing a new collective agreement, don’t forget that I am paralyzed down my right side – right arm and hand, and from kneecap to toes – so I wouldn’t possibly have been able to sign anything, as I’m right-handed.
Can’t drive, can’t walk (except with a limp), but I’m happy with my lot in life. I’m on disability income now, but I wouldn’t change a thing.
Cheers!
PJW, I am Roman Catholic, and yes, I am interested in what your telling me here. I just would like to know which parts of the Bible you believe that Catholics do not take literally?
As well, I was wondering how this applies to what I’ve said about Clinton and Carter, or does it? Forgive me, I am a little confused, my fault, I’m not quite following exactly what you’re telling me.
I gave marriage as an example of how the Catholic Church takes the Bible literally.
By Sean P. Hogan on 08.24.07 2:48 pm
The Church, the teaching arm of the Church I should say, since the people are the Church, but the hierarchical teachings coming from the Bishops headed of course by the Bishop of Rome, and none of the scriptures are interpreted verbatim. You are correct on the teaching of the Church regarding marriage but only after it had been determined that this was the intent of Jesus in his teaching. Those things that are unchangable are dogma, those that are open to review if you like are doctrine. My point was and is that everything is not black and white, but needs prayerful relection. The rematks you made about the two US Presidents could be considered very judgmental something that Jesus himself condemned, however, having said that, I do it all the time. God forgive me. I just wanted to make clear our Church is not a fundamentalist Church. We do have many beliefs that others will disagree with, and we need to respect that. The only people we are called to hold accountable are ourselves.
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.24.07 2:56 pm
The Great Codswallop speaks!
You liked the color of that fly did you?
I was worried you might be too busy groveling at the feet of King Kontroll to see it. It wouldn’t surprise me if you get busted back to Private and assigned to Kitchen Patrol after that dismal performance.
Hot potato , hot potato..
Re: comments by kpn on 08.24.07 3:25 pm
I am sorry you got that impression. I was merely pointing out that it was not George W. Bush who was President at the Halifax G7 but Bill Clinton. Clinton was giving his security detail nightmares by wading into the crowds shaking hands as if he was in the middle of an election campaign!!
By Charles Oxley on 08.24.07 3:45 pm
Thanks Charles for taking the time to write. I appreciate the effort that was required for such a long reply if you peck away, like I do, with only one finger, instead of the two that I use.
I also appreciate the tone of the reply. Much more interesting for me to read.
A quick story to share with you with my union days at Budd Automotive (they made car frames). My first day, there were a number of summer replacement hires. When we arrived, we were separated into two groups – those that were to work on the assembly line parts presses, and those that were to weld the parts together in an assembly line. Well, I got the green safety glasses, so guess where I ended up?
With little training, I soon found myself as the “repair welder” where I fixed/patched problem areas that the QC guy identified one station ahead of me. On a good day, we could put through 85 car frames per hour, and we were compensated purely by piece work rates.
I was doing arc welding, and it took me some time to learn to co-ordinate the head thrust forward to have my welder’s helmet descend over my face, and the striking of the welding rod near the repair area. So, I did “flash” myself in the eyes quite a few times in the early stages.
One weekend, visiting friends, I had to keep my tinted safety glasses on, the slightest amount of light was quite irritating. For quite sometime that summer, I was referred to as “Roy Orbison” (no permanent damage).
Cheers
(sorry Herb, but he’s been trying so hard for some attention lately. Just like a pet dog, you have to throw him a treat once in a while or he goes off and bites somneone )
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.24.07 2:56 pm
Hey Pte Hoople, I was just perusing your post again, and must say it’s not too bad. One of your better efforts indeed!
Now tell the truth, did you come up with it yourself or did you use a ghost writer?
If you conceived it yourself, I am left to think that someone is making best efforts to pull that stick out of your ass and relieve the pressure on your brain.
What is with the rocks they were holding and the way they shoved a elder Union Leader when he questioned their presence!?
By Geoffrey L. on 08.24.07 11:42 am
Maybe they were just trying to get him out from under the rock.
By Charles Oxley on 08.24.07 3:45 pm
Charles, if I were operating a blog, I would certainly hope that it would attract people such as yourself who contribute worthwhile posts and diverse information as you have done.
The body may be weak, but the soul can be strong. Someone far wiser than me once said, the pen is mightier than the sword, albeit you continue with a one finger version, your contribution is most valuable.
I have by times, reminded my best friend that Roosevelt ran a country from his wheelchair, and she, sharing this, has power only limited by the extent of her will..
By the way, she lives in Burlington along with 40 or so extended family members. Most of which are voting age.
By Greg on 08.24.07 4:56 pm
If you conceived it yourself, I am left to think that someone is making best efforts to pull that stick out of your ass and relieve the pressure on your brain.
Greg, let’s not get too personal here. No one wants to hear how you were “conceived”, or in fact introduced into this world.
OK truce.
So many comments! I’m coming in very late and I’ll apologise if someone has offered this link up already.
http://www.cupe.ca/gallery/montebello-monday/Montebello_20_ao_t_043
CUPE’s Gallery of still shots. I’d start at no.22 a lovely view of Canada’s finest in full kit. I wonder what goes thru their minds really. Maybe after work, while having a beer.
Then at no. 25 is the 3 “protesters”. Posers, is more like it. While the two in front, short little bandy rooster guy, big red head standing all belligerent, watch the guy on the wall (black swathed head) negotiate their way into the police line. Secret password or whatever that got them thru so quickly. Finishes at no.35, then more Montebello shots, some are great.
Whoever is responsible, be it Day or SQ or RCMP or all of the above (nothing rouge about it!) they should be ashamed. They were caught out. PMO is responsible for this one ultimately as far as I’m concerned.
Especially after his mocking comments regarding the protesters, ie: only a couple of hundred; It’s sad. His glib and demeaning manner towards Canadian Citizens must stop. If he has nothing of worth to say he can STFU!
Geo
So very very sorry I was unable to be there.
The Surete du Quebec held a news conference Friday afternoon and said:
“…one of the officers was given a rock by protesters but the officer had no intention of using it.”
This being one of the officers they denied earlier this week. Should be fairly easy to verify.
No explanation from the police of the beer (?) wine cooler bottle in the back pocket of one of the three undercover officers.
Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day Friday says it was the protest organizers fault:
“…the undercover officers were exposed because they were not committing violence.”
This is how we know the RCMP was involved, direct from the RCMP website:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/qc/comm/2007/08/070821b_e.htm
It says:
Unified Police Agencies Report Positively on Security at Montebello Summit
Papineauville, Tuesday, August 21, 2007 – The unified police agencies, which include the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP), Sûreté du Québec (SQ) and the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP), report positively on the security measures implemented to ensure public order and security during the North American Leaders’ Summit.
At the end of the two-day event, the police have arrested four demonstrators. Charges of obstructing a peace officer and assault could be laid against these individuals. The clashes caused little damage. Five police officers suffered minor injuries. Although the Summit ends on August 21, the police resources will remain on site until the next day, August 22.
Anti-Summit protesters gathered at the old train station in Montebello, around noon the first day of the Summit on Monday, August 20, before heading for the Château Montebello.
Security based on actions of demonstrators
RCMP, SQ and OPP troops were deployed to prevent any outburst and ensure that demonstrators expressed their views peacefully while respecting the law, people and property. The actions of the crowd dictated the actions of the police.
The unified police services worked closely together to provide the best possible security services during this meeting of the three North American Heads of State.
In addition to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Sûreté du Québec and the Ontario Provincial Police, the security surrounding the Summit required the collaboration of the Ottawa Police Service, Gatineau Municipal Police, the Canadian Coast Guard, the Canadian Armed Forces, as well as several federal and provincial partners.
A mandate fulfilled
These partners fulfilled their mandate which consisted mainly in ensuring the protection of the Heads of State, dignitaries, participants and the local community of Montebello.
The most interesting explanation for the innocence of Doris Day I have seen comes from Kady O’Malley:
“The most charitable explanation for Day’s baffling decision to defend the dubious tactics of the Surete du Quebec by attacking the peaceful protesters who exposed the fauxtesters is that he hasn’t actually seen the video, and is relying solely on the statement from the SQ. If that’s the case, his staffers might want to hold a private Youtube viewing in the ministerial office in order to give Day the chance to see the footage for himself before he puts his own credibility further at risk.” – http://forums.macleans.ca/advansis/?mod=for&act=dis&ref=publish&eid=48
The “two solitudes” that used to plague this country appear to have been replaced by two separate realities: that of the neo-Cons, and that of the rest of Canada.
ÉCRASEZ L’INFÂMIE!
By Old Enough to Remember on 08.24.07 5:22 pm
Truce, it is a novel concept isn’t it?
I haven’t all the resources you have, I am after all a hillbilly. I haven’t attended a dignified institution of learning, I have attended the University of Life. Which encompasses far more than a detached University Professor could ever hope to convey
I have graduated summa cum laude, and am an extension of the yearning for hope.
When hope dies, so does the Human soul.
Are you with me Brother? We are a Nation, a diverse Nation, but a Nation nonetheless..
Power to the People, and may God guide us in our quest for Freedom, and truth.
Yet another Ideologue, I know…Higher ideals may lead to higher aspirations. Remember the blood of our Soldiers, I do. Panzer Panzer right 90 degrees, an instant before the 88 mm struck the Bren Gun Carrier, and destroyed the lives of many.
Lest we forget.
By Greg on 08.24.07 5:14 pm
Hello Greg, nice to hear from you.
I do try to contribute something worthwhile – whether one agrees/disagrees is irrelevant – but I always learn from others’ opinions, no matter what they are. It is so easy to get caught up in rhetoric.
Indeed, one’s own will (a positive attitude) and the pen will always be mightier than the sword.
I did not know that Roosevelt was confined to a wheelchair. I was in one for two months, then had to learn to walk again – an interesting experience. Rehab took just over a year.
Cheers!
“…the undercover officers were exposed because they were not committing violence.â€
By Bene D on 08.24.07 6:59 pm
Remember when Day was Canadian Alliance leader? This statement is reminiscent of that period. The question is whether this merely shows his ignorance or whether this is part of the strategy to discredit anyone who dare disagree with the direction of the Conservative government.
It does make you wonder whether it was Day’s idea to use these three individuals in the first place to try to discredit those concerned about the SPP. Afterall, it was no less than Bush and Harper that mocked the serious concerns of Canadians about what was going in the political backrooms. Their ideology is so elitist that it foster arrogance, lack of respect and a willingness to push the “ends justify the means” to unethical (and eventually illegal) limits.
Sorry, it was left as I remember him screaming in the night.
“but I always learn from others’ opinions, no matter what they are. It is so easy to get caught up in rhetoric.”
By Charles Oxley on 08.24.07 8:59 pm
Charles, when I was in my mid thirties I realized I learned a great deal more when I listened, than when I spoke.
I also learned that wisdom is best conveyed, by those who can do it with a few words, rather than many.
I’m beginning to think that with their self proclaimed tactic of “evolution by stealth†and the complete lack of parliamentary oversight, that SPP may stand for “Subvert the Political Processâ€. Come to think of it, after this week’s events of police agent provocateurs being used to subvert the right to peaceful protest and demonstration on the part of Canadians with legitimate concerns, I am virtually convinced of it. Who mandated these people to carry out sweeping reforms? Who mandated these people to carry out any reforms? How do the 10 members of the NACC purport to represent anyone or anything apart from themselves and the corporations who employ them?
May I take a wild guess of which of the three policing agencies that would have been responsible for the overall co-ordination of a summit meeting? Might that force be the RCMP who increasingly mires themselves in politics?
Heads should roll starting with Day if for no other reason than stupidity if he hadn’t seen the YouTube video. L0L
As a Canadian who loves my country, I would settle for nothing less than a public enquiry that assigns culpability to the individual agencies and personnel involved.
Garth, please do your best to ensure there is a reckoning.
OMG…Stock Day’s statement…
“Because they were not engaging in violence, it was noted that they were probably not protesters. I think that’s a bit of an indictment against the violent protesters,” Mr. Day said.
What a f*&$ing LIAR!
His account certainly doesn’t jive with the what I saw in the video, nor with the account provided by Montebello’s mayor…
“They left no graffiti. There was not a single incident of damage,” Descoeurs said.
He said he would welcome back an international summit — and the protesters such a meeting attracts — any time.
After reading many news and blog articles, I’m left with the feeling that this whole incident was arranged to take the heat off the real news of the Summit. Is ANYBODY discussing the outcomes of the summit???
http://communities.canada.com/nationalpost/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2007/08/24/yoni-goldstein-the-qpp-s-undercover-blunder.aspx
Well said C.B. Innis.
If PMSH isn’t involved in this subversion of rights, I will eat my shirt. This probably came directly out of his “Book of Dirty Tricks” he wrote awhile back on how to thwart democracy.
“PROTESTERGATE” will be the downfall of this truly lousy government.
Today;s Toronto Star:
http://www.thestar.com/article/249761
“Dion, Williams set to compare notes on unseating PM
Liberal leader and Newfoundland Tory may meet next week”
—————————————
I understand that the 2.5 million income trust investors aren’t too happy with this government either. Then there are the 70% of Canadians without pensions who have lost an important investment choice. Don’t forget the 86% of seniors who don’t benefit from Harper’s brand of pension income splitting. Not to mention the 100% of taxpayers who will have to fund the annual tax shortfall of $7.5 billion a year once all these income trusts go the way of BCE: highly levered buyouts by foreign private equity. Lorne Calvert’s and Rodney MacDonald’s names also come to mind. This is becoming the veritable big tent of discontent. Maybe Dion and Williams can post their notes on Wikipedia, so others can make meaningful contributions of their own about how best to unseat the PM. No reason a person should have to leave the comfort of their own home to go about protesting their government, since these days you never know who your fellow protesters may actually be.
For every problem there is a solution
Michael,
I believe you hit the nail on the head.
This is absolutely consistent with Harper’s underlying communication policy, namely, “Get the message out, stifle feedback.”
Garth wrote,
>A charge is a charge. It is reportable, >as are the results of that action.
And you Garth will take advantage and use it just as you have for your own political purposes without first checking them out.
Give it up. All Canadians now know the issue. It is a sad day when our protectors deceive us, and when our leaders turn away. — Garth
What happened, and what was supposed to happen -
Three undercover cops outed themselves most unprofessionally by their appearance and actions.
Was this deliberate to distract from the results of the meeting?
Consider the downside. Embarrassment for all police forces, whether involved or not. Potential embarrassment for the New Government of Canada. A rat’s tail of continuing controversy. But, if there is something nefarious about SPP, the last thing you want is continuing controversy. You’d rather quietly get on with implementation. Therefore, no advantage to staging the “outingâ€.
Who would benefit from a little excitement at Montebello?
If there is one thing Canadians do not like, it is unnecessary violence (except in hockey). Violent protesters at the SPP meeting would serve to demonstrate that yahoos and anarchists are opposed to SPP, and, by implication, that normal Canadians are not. Opposition to SPP discredited, advantage SPP proponents.
And suppose you gave a party and no one came, or staged massive security and nothing happened, indicating that there was no threat to justify your efforts? Arrange to stir up a little violence just in case, and you have justified your efforts and proved your future necessity. Advantage police.
Any bets on which consideration was the operative one?
If PMSH isn’t involved in this subversion of rights, I will eat my shirt. This probably came directly out of his “Book of Dirty Tricks†he wrote awhile back on how to thwart democracy.
“PROTESTERGATE†will be the downfall of this truly lousy government.
By Michael on 08.25.07 9:12 am
Oh stupid one, guess you haven’t seen the Lieberal book of dirth tricks. They are the masters at it. They wrote the book. How much money do they have to steal before the likes of you understand? So quit getting your shorts in a knot and enjoy the rest of the day.
Hey, here’s a piece of video footage I’d like to see. I wonder if they had or used “boulders”?
Protest TV
Summit organizers hired a cameraman to monitor the protesters so that the live pictures could be beamed back to the leaders at the Château Montebello during the two-day event. TV monitors were set up in the hotel. This is consistent with the protesters’ human rights and court assertions that protesters be seen and heard.
However, according to a summit official, protesters turned on the camera operator – who in effect was working for them – roughed him up and broke his camera. So, he quit. The official said the cameraman didn’t want his name revealed for fear of repercussions. The next day, the TV monitors were showing static pictures of the weather forecast.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070825.NOTEBOOK25/TPStory/?query=jane+taber
Call me naïve, but I do place trust in police. When lost, I have no hesitation to ask directions and when in need of assistance, the first person I would ask is the police. A police officer stopped and changed my tire when broken down on the 401. When threatened with violence, my automatic reaction is to pick up the phone and dial 911 rather than reach for a gun (which I don’t have). The sole weapon at my disposal is an old hockey stick in my closet. L0L
Now for an officer and/or cabinet minister, regardless whether they’re RCMP, QPP, OPP, and/or my Prime Minister, to suggest after deliberately placing provocateurs among peaceful demonstrators that justifies the huge expenditure of manpower, and equipment can be rectified by an internal review goes beyond credibility. My trust has been betrayed and my demand is those betrayals meet the light of day. Answers must be forthcoming or it leaves me no choice but to arm myself against police forces who no longer protect me but instead lie and proceed to cover their own hide.
And I totally reject bullshit like the video was doctored! More and more people, groups and polilticians are demanding a public inquiry. A public inquiry could restore my faith, but nothing less will do.
And I totally reject bullshit like the video was doctored doctored. More and more people, groups and polilticians are demanding a public inquiry. A public inquiry could restore my faith, but nothing less will do.
By Old Enough to Remember… See Noami Klein’s article Big Brother Diplomacy
Shadow,
and if you think that official video coverage of the protest was limited to one cameraman hired for the occasion, you are innocent enough to be a dedicated neo-Con indeed. There will not be one square foot of the security area or protest area that was not covered by “official” video. All “officials” had to do is feed it, or release it to make a case now.
By the way, can you link me to a neo-Con website where bootgate received any meaningful coverage? Could it be that the right wing of the political spectrum is even more selective in what it covers than the MSM it complains about? Or is it merely following higher direction to consign it to the “do not mention” corner of its separate reality?
And I totally reject bullshit like the video was doctored:
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/249759
More and more people, groups and polilticians are demanding a public inquiry. A public inquiry could restore my faith, but nothing less will do.
By Old Enough to Remember: See Naomi Klein’s article, Big Brother Diplomacy
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070910/klein
Oops sorry for the double post. I didn’t think my html was being accepted and made up another post without html tags.
Is this the same three terrorists that showed up at Garth’s Town Hall meeting.
For some reason, cons like three’s company.
Idiots.
Disgusting and embarrassing. Stock Day is a pompous and pitiful mp; he should be made to resign over this. Harper should shuffle him out as soon as possible.
For some reason, cons like three’s company.
By Sandy Canchuk on 08.25.07 3:07 pm
That is because they actually are Martians! LOL
My trust has been betrayed and my demand is those betrayals meet the light of day. Answers must be forthcoming or it leaves me no choice but to arm myself against police forces who no longer protect me but instead lie and proceed to cover their own hide.
By Canuck on 08.25.07 2:03 pm
This is the crux of the issue. There are some here who trust no policeman and this will reinforce their paranoia when it comes to law enforcement. As someone who has been around law enforcement personnel for decades the issue represents something I have never encountered before and something that is extremely troubling.
Law enforcement should be just that. It should never involve using its power to make a political statement.
The perception is that these three police officers were in the process of making a political statement by using their masked presense to paint the peaceful protestors as potentially violent radicals. That both the Quebec police leaders and the federal government have participated in trying to maintain the same perception of the demonstrators adds to the perception that there were political motives.
Comments made by both Harper and Day and the Quebec police authorities suggest they are all engaged in a smear campaign against peaceful protestors. I only hope that the RCMP were not involved and that they will make a statement contradicting the Day position. I am not holding my breath because I suspect the reason for selecting a partisan, civilian commissioner was designed to ensure the politicization of operations.
Herb said:
“Was this deliberate to distract from the results of the meeting?”
Hardly. This was pure unadulterated police incompetence. It doesn’t get any purer than this. Do you suppose they also did the filming? Do you suppose they posted it on You Tube? Do you suppose David Coles was an accomplice? All in a grand rouse to get caught to achieve some other ulterior purpose that would only be served by being outed?
If that’s your theory, then why did they deny their complicity in the first instance. That would have run the real risk that people would have believed their denial, which would be a very real risk indeed to the grander agenda, since before this incident I think it would be fair to say that 80% of Canadains probably believe the police are in the business of telling the truth and 100% of Canadians would like to think that the police are in the business of telling the truth. As naive as that turns out to be.
No, unfortunately this particular police detail is about are as honest as they were competent. It’s really that simple.
What’s all this fuss over a pet rock? So a police officer brought his pet rock with him to work while working undercover at Montebello. What’s the big deal. It’s not like he ever intended to throw it. As a professional spokesperson like Sandra Buckler (Harper’s spokeserson) might say, as she did in the case of bulk water sales the US being on the SPP agenda: “It’s not ever going to be our intention to incite violence amongst peaceful protestors by having undercover agent provocateurs from the police services throw rocks at police. It’s not on the agenda and it’s not on the table . . . I dampen that immediately. It’s definitely not on the agenda. We’re not talking about it. It’s not up for discussion. It’s not happening.”
Deny deny deny. When that strategy fails in light of cameraman Paul Manly’s You Tube video of the actual circumstances, the only tactic left is a finely parsed qualified admission followed by containment. The strategy of containment is inconsistent with the holding of public inquiries. In situations like this, there are many who would prefer that the truth not get out.
David Coles is to be congratulated for having the presence of mind to quickly understand the situation that was unfolding before him for what it was. Without his strong desire to maintain the peaceful nature of his demonstration and insistence that this undercover officer drop his pet rock projectile, there would have been no need for the mock arrest dramatization that revealed the incriminating souls for who they were. And now we know the identity of the cameraman who took this documentary footage that deserves to be at the center of the public inquiry. Meanwhile nothing is known about the identity and therefore the employer of these three agent provocateurs. We are first told that they are not members of either the RCMP or the QPP. The next day we are told they are members of the QPP. Thanks, but no thanks. Once bitten, twice shy. We need hard evidence. Not today’s version of the truth, as these individuals’ identity is only the first item on a long list of questions that demand answers.
Cameraman worries about democracy
Paul Walton, Daily News
Published: Saturday, August 25, 2007
Article tools
The Nanaimo man who shot a video showing police as agents provocateurs at recent protests in Quebec says he is more disturbed than proud.
Independent videographer Paul Manly, who runs Manly Media, said his footage, now all over the Internet, is evidence that police — not protesters — are putting the democratic right to protest at risk. The incident happened on Monday as North American leaders met at Montebello, Que., to discuss the Security and Prosperity Partnership.
The video shows the president of the Communication Energy and Paperworkers union, Dave Coles, confronting the three men wearing bandanas and ordering one to drop a rock. Manly points out how one of the trio leans over, partially moves aside a riot shield and appears to commiserate with the riot squad.
“You think they would let any protester do that? Not a chance,” he said.
With the video in hand, Manly became fearful, not knowing if the three men were police, bikers or even working for CSIS or the CIA. About 12 hours later he had it on the Internet, easing his worries.
“I have never felt so insecure in this country before,” he said.
By Friday afternoon, the video had been watched nearly 200,000 times.
Even before the incident involving the three men, now revealed as officers with the Surete Quebec, Manly was concerned about the direction the protest was going.
Though it had been arranged for the Council of Canadians and others for others to deliver a petition to politicians, an hour prior the RCMP cancelled the meeting and the area was flooded with riot police.
Manly then found himself at the apex of battalions of riot police as they converged on protesters.
“They were all geared up for war.”
One of the reasons Manly is disturbed is his sister is a police officer, and he supports their role in society.
“They have put police into disrepute, and this puts a black mark on policing,” he said.
Coles and the CEP are now calling for a judicial inquiry. Manly thinks the secrecy of the Security and Prosperity Partnership talks and the incident show a trend that is threatening democratic freedoms.
“Hopefully what this does is get people to think about why this is happening,” he said. “It’s very telling, it’s really disturbing for a number of reasons.”
The Surete Quebec said the officers in the crowd were not provoking violence. They said one officer had a rock after it was given to him by a protester. Coles maintains the three were advancing to the front of the protest line and inciting others to throw rocks.
“He only had the rock because he was trying to blend in with (a crowd of) extremists he had been with earlier,” said a spokesman for the Quebec police, Insp. Marcel Savard.
PWalton@nanaimodailynews.com
250-729-4230
© The Daily News (Nanaimo) 2007
By Canuck on 08.25.07 2:34 pm
By Old Enough to Remember… See Noami Klein’s article Big Brother Diplomacy
Thanks. Yes, she does bring up some interesting issues.
I was thinking the same thing about how much face time do these CEO leaders really get. So, I e-mailed a journalist who also blogs, and they confirmed it was scheduled for one hour and ran 15 minutes late. I was curious with what they could actually accomplish, what with Spanish, English and French speakers there etc. , introductions etc. Not much I suspect. It’s more the optics I think that concerns people.
The description of the protest video tent actually made me think of City TV’s Speaker’s Corner – which I have watched on occasion when in T.O. – interesting. To my surprise, I saw my niece and her friends on there one night complaining about gun violence.
I don’t know – sounds innovative to me to put up a similar booth to cater to the MTV crowd – but it’s a kinda damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
I notice Klein didn’t however talk about the roving videographer that got roughed up according to Jane Taber that I quoted above. Perhaps it didn’t fit her editorial position.
Would a protest march with people chanting “Hey hey. Ho ho. SPP has gotta go” been more effective. Doubtful.
Either way, it’s the main media (tv, newspapers) where the leader’s (and those that brief them and follow these things closest) will get their info on protest efforts, so I wouldn’t be overly concerned.
As with the effective use of YouTube and vigilant amateur video, blogs etyc. the increasing use of technology cuts both ways. Not too many people out there who don’t have cell phones that are also capable of taking video, which is a good thing, in my books, on this sort of protest stuff.
By Canuck on 08.25.07 2:38 pm
And I totally reject bullshit like the video was doctored:
Hey, I just read your TorStar story, and it doesn’t say “doctored” (meaning to me that the images were altered) but rather “edited” (meaning to me that sections of the raw tape that runs for however long were not uploaded.)
There is a difference.
Btw, I did find on the site you provided a video story on the videographer that was injured.
http://www.thestar.com/fpLarge/video/248333
Interestingly, the short clip included a section with a protester throwing a rock, surrounded by similarly dressed individuals with bandanas, and backpacks.
Shadow,
and if you think that official video coverage of the protest was limited to one cameraman hired for the occasion, you are innocent enough to be a dedicated neo-Con indeed. There will not be one square foot of the security area or protest area that was not covered by “official†video. All “officials†had to do is feed it, or release it to make a case now.
By the way, can you link me to a neo-Con website where bootgate received any meaningful coverage? Could it be that the right wing of the political spectrum is even more selective in what it covers than the MSM it complains about? Or is it merely following higher direction to consign it to the “do not mention†corner of its separate reality?
By Herb on 08.25.07 2:35 pm
You missed my point Herb. Michael was saying he would eat his shirt if the Prime Minister wasn’t involved with these three goons doing whatever they were doing. Well I can advise him that he will be eating his shirt and his shorts as well. Then Sandy Canchuk calling for Day’s resignation. How foolish.
I know that you are all lefties and that is okay. You keep throwing s..t at the wall trying to see how much sticks. I could care less whether every corner of the area has been covered with cameras, it makes no difference to me whatsoever. Really, this is a non item and amounts to nothing, but you lieberals keep trying to make something out of it.
I have no control what the conservative party does Herb. If they choose to down play this episode then that is their business, not mine as you insinuated. I am not a card carrying conservative or belong to the party in any way. I do not contribute to their cause except with my vote when I feel like voting. Believe it or not, I supported the lieberal party for many years. They will never get my vote again, ever for a variety of reasons.
Shadow,
it may be a non-item and amount to nothing in the CPC neo-Con universe, but it’s a big thing in the rest of Canada.
There are many who do not like arbitrary or unrestrained action by government or its agents. They are not necessarily Liberals, just democrats. The fact that the CPC is not upset and on side does not speak well for its understanding of the theory and practice of democracy in Canada.
P.S.: I am not nor ever have been a member of the LPC, but have voted Liberal in the past – by actual count just as often as I have voted PC and CPC. Nor am I throwing s..t, but I do look at what is proferred, and call it horseshit when appropriate.
Shadow,
I owe you ONE apology, because the 12:49 PM comment I objected to was by Old Enough, not you. Sorry.
But my response to what you posted at 6:06 PM stands.
Old Enough,
would you care to provide a late reply to my misdirected post of 2:35 PM?
By Herb on 08.25.07 8:56 pm
Old Enough,
would you care to provide a late reply to my misdirected post of 2:35 PM?
Yeah OK, as best I can. Thanks for the opportunity, although I am by no means a security expert. On this blog, I would defer to C.B. Innes who appears to have good operational experience (can’t say I agree with all of his political judgment, however).
“Official video†is a term that I’m not sure I understand within the context of your posting “By Herb on 08.25.07 2:35 pm†as it relates to my posting of a G&M article about a videographer. From what I gather, this guy was feeding street video of the protesters to the Montebello conference centre. I provided the link to a video story of his demise in a later post. Here it is again: http://www.thestar.com/fpLarge/video/248333
Was his video feed part of the early part of this clip? I don’t know. But if you look at the computer screens at the Montebello centre while he was operating, in a short clip visible for a few seconds, these were not Speaker’s Corner type interviews that Naomi Klein suggested in her Nation Story, linked above. The visuals suggest he was posting actual, ongoing demonstrations.
When the POTUS (President of the United States) goes anywhere internationally, would I expect unusual levels of security and surveillance? Absolutely! In recent history, JFK was assassinated, Gerald Ford nearly shot by Squeeky From, Ronald Reagan shot by Hinkley. And none of those Presidents had approval levels even approaching the lows of GWB.
I’m not sure I’d agree that stationary security cameras would cover ALL of the potential security areas around Montebello, similar to the levels of coverage that Londoners accept in the U.K. as necessary evils in today’s world, but I’d certainly expect close to the defensive perimeter there’d be lots of security cameras.
So, I’m not sure precisely what your point is here. Do the authorities have independent video to cover the YouTube stuff? Given that it was close to the security perimeter, I’d expect the answer to be yes.
Do they have video where they claim the undercover officers were allegedly offered rocks? Maybe, depending how far away it was.
Should they have immediately released any and all surveillance video of this event? No, not in my opinion, but you can differ. I don’t see what purpose it would serve, frankly. If there is a case for disclosure, I’d rather it proceed through complaints review and FOI requests. It seems unreasonable and overall costly otherwise at this stage (both short term and long term).
Turn it around. I can remember some sort of protest in Vancouver a few years ago where protesters shut down Robson St and proceeded to climb hydro poles etc. ( I have lost track of the protest- same individuals it seems, different issue each time). There was some damage and the law enforcement officials wanted the video footage from the news agencies of the vandals as they had no surveillance themselves, and wanted to identify the perpetrators. Big fight in the courts, and I can’t remember who prevailed – the TV stations or the police.
I’m not sure I answered your question. The cameraman injured that I noted was serving a different purpose than the surveillance security cameras. He was injured, it appears, because the protesters didn’t understand the difference.
A mistake you seem to have also made.
By Old Enough to Remember:
Statements by SQ Inspector Marcel Savard:
—–
Savard suggested the video had been edited to cast the officers in an unflattering light and that from the SQ’s standpoint the operation – to ensure last week’s summit went off without injury or property damage – was a success.
—-
The statement in the article from Savard about editing or doctoring was not a direct quote. What he has said is that the tactics “merit an extraordinary review†and with that statement I’m fully in agreement. I just don’t believe that review would be credible if done by the foxes guarding the hen house but plausibility enhancement is accomplished if done as a public inquiry. Police did abuse their powers at Chateau Montebello and to restore my faith in them, they’ll have to take off their gloves and show me their shiny, clean hands. Otherwise the shadows over QPP generalizes to policing not involved with the offenses committed at Montebello. A public inquiry restores faith ensuring police safety as well as the publics. Lost trust…extremely difficult to rebuild and in some cases never completely restored and suspicion must not be allowed to creep between citizens and the police.
Public trust is a precious commodity! See Saanich Police Code of Ethics
Google, “Police Investigating Themselves” and it returns 565,000 hits Dissatisfaction about transparency and justice appears wide spread. Cases of corruption have been documented Examinations about the police, conducted by the police should not take place behind closed doors. I’m not a lawyer, but that makes no sense. Lift the veil of secrecy and let the sunshine in where previously only darkness prevailed.
The relationship between police and the public is built on trust. Abuses by police tear the roots out of the system.
By Canuck on 08.26.07 3:26 am
I just don’t believe that review would be credible if done by the foxes guarding the hen house but plausibility enhancement is accomplished if done as a public inquiry.
Yeah, I hear your point. It’s all a matter of degree. If you took your argument to one extreme, there would be no police internal reviews of any complaints – every perceived or alleged wrong should go to a public hearing. A very expensive approach (which would make some lawyers happy).
It seems to me the real issue here is the rock, and issues surrounding it, is it, or are you against the whole idea of police going undercover?
Also, do you think that authorities should pursue investigating and charging the individuals who did in fact throw rocks etc. with the same vigour you advocate here, or is this simply the right of passage for activists?
You know when some people arrive with gas masks to a “peaceful” demonstration, I would suggest it would take NO provocation for them to push events to where police respond with tear gas – to them perhaps their own sign of a “successful” summit.
No wonder the protest petered out the following day. I wouldn’t stick around either had I been involved in provocations the day earlier which included roughing up the videographer. Especially if I only had one set of clothing and risked being identified from the day’s previous surveillance or media video.
Since we are on the topic of those in a position of trust using deceptive practices, here’s a new question to consider:
So just how many people has Harper sucker punched as Prime Minister?
suck·er-punch /(sÅk’É™r-pÅnch’)
–verb (used with object) Slang.
to strike (someone) with an unexpected blow.
Harper’s biggest and most blatant sucker punch to date has got to be the sucker punch he delivered to the unsuspecting public by promising to never tax income trusts in order to get elected and upon entering office turned around a delivered a $35 billion dollar blow to the groin of the 2.5 million Canadians who had taken him at his word. You know the old expression. Once sucker punched, twice shy. That doesn’t bode well for the new platform of policies that Harper has concocted over the summer in an attempt to delude voters once again in the newly revised concoction of Canada’s New One Two Punch Government. Maybe Stephen Harper derives this political doctrine from P. T. Barnum, famous for saying that there’s a sucker born every minute.
I don’t suppose Danny Williams likes being taken for a sucker when it come to the Atlantic Accord. Just ask the foreign oil companies he negotiated the Hebron deal with, which is in stark contrast to the type of deal that Jim Flaherty would have negotiated on bended knee with industry, such as the Bruce Power Nuclear deal where he sold off all the upside and kept all the operational downside. And to think that Mike Harris tried to pawn this kind of nonsense as part of a Common Sense revolution.
That pretty much sums up the seeds that Harper has sown with his litany of broken promises in that he has sold off all his political upside and kept all the downside. I have only mentioned the two most prominent of the many broken promises of our sucker punching Prime Minister. There’s a website dedicated to this formidable task of keeping tack of Stephen’s non-accomplishments at at http://trustbreaker.blogspot.com/ which at last count was up to 42. Harper’s possible throne speech will no doubt provide the fodder for many new entries in the days leading up to the next election
Old Enough,
Thank you for your response of 12:14 AM. Let me review the points made in Taber’s report that form the substance of your post of 12:49 PM yesterday -
1. “Summit organizers hired a cameraman to monitor the protesters so that the live pictures could be beamed back to the leaders at the Château Montebello during the two-day event.â€
2. “However, according to a summit official, protesters turned on the camera operator – who in effect was working for them – roughed him up and broke his camera. So, he quit.â€
3. “The next day, the TV monitors were showing static pictures of the weather forecast.â€
So summit organizers hired “a cameraman†to provide live coverage of the protests for “the leaders.†If that did not make that cameraman and his work “officialâ€, I don’t know what that word means.
This cameraman was roughed up by protesters and his camera was broken. I assume that it is this incident that is the “… piece of video footage I’d like to see.â€
And the resulting implication is that the leaders had no coverage of the protest, or what’s the point of Taber’s statement that the monitors showed static weather pictures the next day? As the separate, after the fact Panetta CP video report you linked to tells us, “the project was suspended.â€
The point of my 2:35 PM comment was that there was lots of video coverage for any imaginable purpose, even for the information of summit leaders. We are talking about security arrangements for a PM exponentially increased for a POTUS. I repeat, there is not a square foot of the security and protest areas that would not have been covered by video cameras for purposes of security and subsequent evidence, if necessary. So live video coverage was available and could have been edited for feed to the leaders (as at hockey games, what appears on TV screens is selected from many cameras, right?). I do not for a moment believe that the information of summit leaders failed because a cameraman was roughed up by protesters. Someone is selling us a bill of goods here. Video also could be edited and released now to prove any incidents and back up or disprove any allegations. If it isn’t, ask why, and don’t settle for “Security!â€
We are in the disinformation and misinformation stage of “bootgate†and should not be content to stay there. If guardians of law and order were used in an attempt to discredit protesters, it was a political purpose and is wrong. If guardians of law and order tried to stir up a bit of business for themselves, that too is wrong. And I am not sure that the police complaints process will be adequate to establish the truth.
So why is there no problem in the eyes of CPC adherents, as evidenced by the lack of discussion in their part of the blogosphere?
By Herb on 08.26.07 11:35 am
Well Herb, I think you are splitting hairs here. But allow me to reply this one last time.
So summit organizers hired “a cameraman†to provide live coverage of the protests for “the leaders.†If that did not make that cameraman and his work “officialâ€, I don’t know what that word means.
Well, the CP video story suggested this whole idea was a bit of a joke – with the monitors placed in a corner in The Montebello centre. But even if the leaders did have time in their busy schedule to mosey on over and watch, could the suspended road level videographer feed be replaced from a roof mounted camera?
Recognizing that the videographer was roughed up Monday night, I don’t believe it would be physically possible come Monday morning within the time frame remaining of the shortened conference(and remember, there was only a spattering of protesters the next day according to media reports.)
C.B. Innis may be able to help here, but the videographer was feeding to the Montebello computers through satellite, I presume. The survey cameras probably are hard wired into a central security location where the feeds are digitized.
I would expect these two systems to be completely separate by technology, and who controls them (the RCMP probably on the latter, conference bureaucrats on the former). I;m not sure technically it could have been done as you suggest, even if they had the time, and agreement with the RCMP.
This cameraman was roughed up by protesters and his camera was broken. I assume that it is this incident that is the “… piece of video footage I’d like to see.â€
Yes
And the resulting implication is that the leaders had no coverage of the protest, or what’s the point of Taber’s statement that the monitors showed static weather pictures the next day?
I don’t know if you read Jane Taber in the G&M. Her Saturday column, where I got the story, is a sort of light news/Parliament Hill gossipy thing, which includes a section called “Who’s hot. Who’s not.” I think you are reading too much into it if you are suggesting she is making some profound statement. Just reporting a piece of irony as it relates to this conference. Pick up yesterday’s G&M and have a look for yourself.
I do not for a moment believe that the information of summit leaders failed because a cameraman was roughed up by protesters. Someone is selling us a bill of goods here.
Well, as I mentioned in a different blog entry, I think the leaders would be well aware of the nature of the protests from tv and newspaper accounts and briefings, so I really don’t see what goods are being sold here.
By Herb on 08.26.07 11:35 am
So why is there no problem in the eyes of CPC adherents, as evidenced by the lack of discussion in their part of the blogosphere?
I don’t know. I never visit their websites, whatever they are, nor do I know any that manage them or blog there.
Why don’t you ask them?
If PMSH isn’t involved in this subversion of rights, I will eat my shirt. This probably came directly out of his “Book of Dirty Tricks†he wrote awhile back on how to thwart democracy.
“PROTESTERGATE†will be the downfall of this truly lousy government.
By Michael on 08.25.07 9:12 am
Oh stupid one, guess you haven’t seen the Lieberal book of dirth tricks. They are the masters at it. They wrote the book. How much money do they have to steal before the likes of you understand? So quit getting your shorts in a knot and enjoy the rest of the day.
Let me tell you something Shadow Knows. I dont care what you call me, or how despicable you think I am, but I want you and Stephen Harper to know one thing – I WILL NOT FOLLOW YOU!
“Why don’t you ask them?”
I did, 24 hours ago (at 2:35 yesterday), but the silence of our CPC troll patrol has been deafening – as it always is when they are backed into a corner where simple contradiction won’t work.
Do all conservatives think this is appropriate behaviour of our ‘new canadaian government?’
Gee, home grown terrorists; and the conservatives will try and stage an act of terrorism to continue to propogate their self righteous behaviours.
Harper is very scary.
CNN Video:Lou Dobbs Slams CFR & North American Union
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kjsy2Z3kdI&mode=related&search=
The Church, the teaching arm of the Church I should say, since the people are the Church, but the hierarchical teachings coming from the Bishops headed of course by the Bishop of Rome, and none of the scriptures are interpreted verbatim. You are correct on the teaching of the Church regarding marriage but only after it had been determined that this was the intent of Jesus in his teaching. Those things that are unchangable are dogma, those that are open to review if you like are doctrine. My point was and is that everything is not black and white, but needs prayerful relection. The rematks you made about the two US Presidents could be considered very judgmental something that Jesus himself condemned, however, having said that, I do it all the time. God forgive me. I just wanted to make clear our Church is not a fundamentalist Church. We do have many beliefs that others will disagree with, and we need to respect that. The only people we are called to hold accountable are ourselves.
By pjw on 08.24.07 3:50 pm
PJW, many priests must have missed this teaching as they seem to take the Bible literally. For example: The priest at my church mentioned Jonah and how he was in the whale. He took it literally. I’ve heard over a thousand homilies and based on this, I’ve never heard a priest not take the Bible literally. Would you mind pointing me to a vatican document on your point of not taking the Bible literally? This would really help me out and I thank you in advance. The judgment of someone’s acts is not part of the scripture, it was referring to eternal judgment.
Why should we respect other’s who reject Christ’s teachings? Is that what you meant by our beliefs that other’s disagree?
By Sean P. Hogan on 08.27.07 9:26 am
Sean, I really don’t want to get into all of this on here, I have told you the official interpretation of scripture in the Catholic Church in the Roman Rite is the Jerome Biblical Commentary which is available at any good Catholic bookstore. Secondly, any priest who is using a literal or fundamental interpretation is not in union with the teaching arm of the Church. You can easily find out by calling either the Archdiocese office or St. Augustine’s Seminary if you find it difficult to believe me.
Sean..you wanted a document, try this one..http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html
Why should we respect other’s who reject Christ’s teachings? Is that what you meant by our beliefs that other’s disagree?
By Sean P. Hogan on 08.27.07 9:26 am
Yes, we shoud respect others who do not hold our beliefs and by doing so may win the opportunity to love them into the Church, very few people come at the threat of a stick, welcoming and inviting them works much better.
PJW, I appreciate you taking the time here, if you’re still willing, and since no one else is participating on this topic, would you mind continuing the conversation?
Well I am not an expert on the subject and you would be better informed by a scripture scholar, of course, a Catholic one, someone like Fr. Raymond E. Brown who I have seen many times in various conferences and biblical studies that I was involved in. But it has been a few years now and I am not actively involved any longer. But I did spend a few years at the Seminary and had the opportunity to learn a lot. the idea of the Historical Critical Method of scripture interpretation is used by almost all biblical scholars in our Church, of course, it is the magisterium that holds the ultimate decision on what we teach and what we don’t. That is why the Jerome Biblical commentary is used by all who preach, it is a good check that what you are saying is in line with the teachings of the Church. The Holy Spirit also plays a huge role in all of this as he guides the Pope and the Bishops as they discern. You mentioned earlier something about judgment meaning eternal judgment, it is also one of the requisites that eternal judgment is based as Jesus said “Judge not lest ye be judged” It is rather difficult to carry this conversation on in a public forum, but as I said the priests who interpret the scriptures literally or verbatim are doing their parish a disservice, it is easier to do so, it takes far more time to reflect and work one’s way through the readings. Of course, we differ somewhat from our protestant brethren in that our holilies are to be based on the reading of the day and we shouldn’t be going off on little tangents of our own making. Whereas in the other Christian denominations, they are free to deliver a sermon on most any subject they like. I am not sure how the Anglicans and the Lutherans still do it but I was speaking of the mainline protestant churches. There are some dangers in the fundalmentalist approach, mainly that it can be so black and white, it doesn’t allow room for the Holy Spirit to operate, after all, if the bible is the absolute and final word, then there is no need for the work of the Spirit and in some sense means God no longer works in our lives, after all, if we already have all the answers, where would be the need? Our Church, I believe has the best balance and we depend on God to continue to work through our Holy Father and through the community as well as adhering to the spirit of the Holy Scriptures.
Others may not agree, and we are called to embrace them, not to push them further away, after all, we are all made in the image and likeness of God, we need to reconize that in others as well as in ourselves.
I think that is enough preaching for one day, I wish you a good evening and am heartened that you are interested.
PJW, the link you gave me didn’t really point me in your direction, so to speak. Let me quote from it:
Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation. Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).
When I read this and other statements which are similar, it makes me think that yes they do take it as is. I mean, don’t they believe that Jonah was in the belly of the whale? What about Sodom and Gomorrah? What about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego who were tossed into the furnace? What about the flood and Noah?
Are these examples of what is not taken literally?
I’m going to keep my eyes open for the St. Jerome Biblical Commentary. I’m sure it’ll make for good reading.
Are these examples of what is not taken literally?
By Sean P. Hogan on 08.28.07 2:46 pm
Personally from a Christian perspective, I see the old testament as a forerunner to the coming of the Messiah, whether the acts you quoted were actual or not is not the point, the point is, what is the message contained in each one. But I am not very familiar with the old testament, and the new testament is the one I have studied most. In one gospels, the Shepherds come to Jesus’ birth in another the magi…does it matter? Not really, it does point to the diving birth and that is the essence of their coming. One can find many contradictions in the new testament but not conflicting messages. I suggested you call the Chancellery office or the Seminary to find the answer, I don’t understand why you don’t do that, if you are interested in the truth? Tell them you are interest in speaking with a scripture scholar and interested in finding out if we are a fundamentalist Church in regard to interpretation of scripture. Do we take them literally?
Since you quoted from the Letter of Timothy, it seems you would like it to be that way. There are certain groups within our Church who lean in that direction such as the Charismatic Renewal albeit they still accept the teaching of the Magisterium. So Sean, if you are seeking the truth, I have given you the direction you can find it.
Have a nice evening….
Oh and the Jerome Biblical Commentary, I would hardly call it good reading but it does keep us on course.