Every two years the United Nations Climate Change Conference tries to save the world by building consensus and thinking of future generations instead of current intransigence. Yesterday the Bali conference ended. Two years ago, the talks were in Montreal, in the midst of a Canadian federal election campaign.
The man in charge of the Montreal UN event was our environment minister. Stephane Dion. Unlike with the Bali conference, which was inconclusive, in Montreal the world came together on one bright morning, under the guidance of one brilliant man.
Here is a refresher on Stephane Dion, who got the job done. — Garth
91 comments ↓
My grandmother often said;
“It’s gude to be merry and wise,
It’s gude to be honest and true;
It’s gude to be off with the old love,
Before you are on with the new.”
I think that Dion is Canada’s best hope for the future and I embrace him as my leader. Harper, Flaherty and the rest of the Con cabal broke their sacred promise and destroyed the IT sector. They lost my respect and my support. They lied so much that they can no longer can be trusted by decent people. Let’s give them the old heave-ho…they deserve it.
Hi Garth, I know Mr. Dion says he ‘got it done’. Mr. Dion also says that he’s a hero. I’ve looked and looked for an url or quote of anyone calling Mr. Dion a hero, and I cannot find one.
What exactly did Mr. Dion ‘get done’ on climate? He’s waving his hands (in your last posted video) saying what a success he is. I don’t hear anyone else saying he did anything.
Katrina Genuis from the CND Youth Delegation in Bali, said on CBC that Canada had the ‘reputation’ of ‘blocking climate talks’ until now. She said they “were thrilled”.
In a report from Montreal on Dec. 8, 2005, the BBC said “one of the main controversies at this conference” was an attempt by the Canadian minister of environment “to launch a two-year process of discussions outside the jurisdiction of the Kyoto agreement.”
The BBC explained that “the aim is to set up a ‘parallel track’ to discuss various options for taking international action forward, which would enable both the Americans and developing countries to participate without committing themselves to specific targets on cutting or limiting emissions.”
Sound familiar?
Of course, Canada’s environment minister at the time was Stephane Dion.
(By ANGELO PERSICHILLI)
In the seven years between the signing of Kyoto in 1997 and 2004, here’s what happened:
•Emissions worldwide increased 18.0 percent;
•Emissions from countries that signed the treaty increased 21.1 percent;
•Emissions from nonsigners increased 10.0 percent; and
•Emissions from the United States increased 6.6 percent.
~and we know they increased much more since 2004.
These are facts Garth. You know they are. Okay, we KNOW what Mr. Dion says he got done, but really, what did he do? I think it behoves him to tell us why Kyoto failed under his government’s watch and explain clearly how he would do it different. What is his real workable plan?
He didn’t get it done Garth, he didn’t get it done.
I think Katrina is right. We should be thrilled that Canada is no longer blocking talks and bringing the world together on climate talks.
Smile Garth, Canada is on the right path.
Good tidings to you and yours. Leasa
John Baird has been awarded the “Fossil of the Day Award”: http://www.pr-inside.com/de/weltklimakonferenz-auf-bali-vom-r346839.htm
From Gerry West’s column at Rabble.ca.
This week officials from around the world gathered in Bali to discuss the problems. Mostly what they did is put on a show for political purposes without really facing the problem. If anyone thinks that serious work to fix the environment was on the table, just look at the Canadian delegation. One would think to find environmental scientists who have studied the issue there. Not so in Canada’s case, they were not invited. Instead we have officials from the private energy companies serving on the delegation. It is like sending Klu Klux Klan members to represent us at a conference on race relations.
http://www.rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?x=65368
So Garth,tell us, who in opposition is going to stand up and tell Alberta to reduce their emissions???????????
A few weeks back I saw Harper’s face on a slice of toast informing us he was exactly that.
Is the bread even turning brown yet???
And what of Libby Davies saying the Chalk River potential disaster was rushed so you guys wouldn’t have to come back during your Christmas break.
The people of Canada deserve better,the choices are becoming more limited.
Mr. Turner,
I agree wholeheartedly with your endorsement of Stephane Dion. People have said that he didn’t get the job done. Of course he didn’t. He only served as Environment Minister for a relatively brief time. But during the time that he was, he attempted to make real progress and showed real leadership on the world stage. Above all he was and still is sincere about his concern for the environment, and the grave problems that we will face if we continue to ignore it.
This is vastly different from the behaviour of Mr. Harper, Mr. Baird, and the Conservative Party as a whole which were a complete disgrace in Bali. The leadership that we once showed was sorely lacking, and once again the childish behaviour of Mr. Baird was an embarassment to us all. Thanks to him we are currently viewed as stools to the U.S. position on climate change. To be linked in any way to the policies of Bush’s America is nothing to be proud of.
Hopefully, the Liberals wise up and stand behind their leader as they should have from day one, prove that they can govern, and topple the Conservatives in the next election. I supported Stephane Dion at the leadership convention, and still do. I am confident that he will prove all his naysayers wrong and show the world that Canadians are willing to be part of the solution to climate change.
You’re doing a great job too Garth. Keep it up.
Leasa
You cannot see the difference between engaging the Kyoto-rogues states (i.e. USA etc) from inside Kyoto in 2005 vs joining the rogues in 2007. Harper’s kind of low IQ voter I am sure.
Dion got it done, ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha
“When you’re Canada you lead” on the environment, Liberal leader says. It’s
not what he did
- ANGELO PERSICHILLI
Liberal Leader Stephane Dion doesn’t have the moral right to lecture others
about the environment. His talk in the House of Commons has little to do
with saving the Earth from pollution and a lot to do with saving his
polluted leadership.
I was watching Dion in the House lecture the Conservatives about the need to
do something to defend the environment. “Instead of leading by example, this
prime minister engaged in sabotage of the Commonwealth conference,” said
Dion. Screaming with righteous outrage from his side of the House, Dion
pontificated: “When you’re Canada, you lead.”
His theatrics brought me back to the summer of 2001 when I was in Genoa,
Italy, for the G8 Summit. Parallel to this summit was another one in Bonn,
Germany. The topic of the second gathering was exclusively focused on the
environment.
Then prime minister Jean Chretien, while in Genoa, received a letter from
Greenpeace and the David Suzuki Foundation. It contained an appeal to
Chretien to intervene with his delegation in Bonn because “Canada has a
tradition of taking leadership on critical global issues. This reputation
has been seriously compromised both on the international stage and at home
by Canada’s continued insistence on massive loopholes in the Kyoto Protocol
and a perception that Canada is closely collaborating with the U.S. to
derail early ratification.”
In the press release to the media, they wrote “Canada’s stance in the
climate negotiations underway in Bonn is holding up progress.” Does that
sound familiar?
In November, 2004 the same organization, making a presentation to the
Standing Committee on Finance, was still asking for “a comprehensive
national sustainability plan to become a 21st century economic and
environmental leader.” It added: “Prime Minister Martin has spoken of the
need for a fundamental shift in our understanding of the link between the
environment and the economy … but the current system lacks succinct
targets, timelines and goals needed to make real change happen.”
EMBARRASSED
That brings us to the Montreal environmental conference in December 2005. We
were embarrassed in front of the world when U.S. President George Bush
informed former PM Paul Martin that the U.S., without implementing the Kyoto
protocol, had done better than Canada in containing CO2 emissions.
In fact, since signing the protocol in Kyoto, carbon dioxide emissions in
Canada had increased 24.4%.
In a report from Montreal on Dec. 8, 2005, the BBC said “one of the main
controversies at this conference” was an attempt by the Canadian minister of
environment “to launch a two-year process of discussions outside the
jurisdiction of the Kyoto agreement.”
The BBC explained that “the aim is to set up a ‘parallel track’ to discuss
various options for taking international action forward, which would enable
both the Americans and developing countries to participate without
committing themselves to specific targets on cutting or limiting emissions.”
Sound familiar?
Of course, Canada’s environment minister at the time was Stephane Dion.
In reality, the Liberal government never implemented a plan to reduce
greenhouse gas emissions because it had no intention to reduce them in
Canada. The plan was mainly to achieve the target through “international
credits” exploiting new Canadian environmental technology not in Canada, but
abroad.
In Genoa, the Chretien government tried hard to make two changes to the
Kyoto Protocol: To have bigger credits for carbon sinks (increased
forestation in certain areas) and for the export of non-polluting sources of
energy. Basically, if we were selling non-polluting equipment to a Third
World country, the reduction of the emissions achieved in that country would
be used, in part, by Canada.
GETTING CREDIT
In the end, Canada succeeded only in getting more credits for the forest
sinks and that was the end of it. Homemade emissions and pollutants kept
growing.
I’m not saying the Conservative record on the environment is better than the
Liberals’ but I do know two things: First, something has to be done. Second,
Stephane Dion is not the one who is going to do it.
Ya keep spinning garth, it is just to funny.
Thanks for this posting, Garth. It is right on!! Mr. Dion did indeed get it done in Montreal and he got it done in the midst of a federal election campaign. Dion’s critics choose to ignore the fact that he was Environment Minister for only 18 months and accomplished a great deal during that time. Thanks for helping to set the record straight.
This is off topic, but I’ve been watching this gup gup unfold for some days now, and I think this says it all.
Mounties say will restrict use of Tasers
“The changes … make it clear that, in certain instances, including instances where the Taser has been used in the past, it’s not appropriate to use a Taser,” RCMP Commissioner William Elliott told a news conference.
“It’s not a total rewrite of our policy, nor is it anything akin to suggesting that Tasers are not an appropriate tool. They are and continue to be … a very useful tool,” he added, saying further changes in policy were possible.
The Mounties said police would only use Tasers when a subject was “displaying combative behaviors or is being actively resistant.”
“Elliott said he could not define what constituted combative behavior.”
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/071214/canada/canada_tasers_col_2
Uuuuh, if he can’t, then who can? What pool of left overs did they find him in?
This is sooooo civil service. We may hold YOU responsible for your use of the taser. We may not. It’s at our discretion, and we reserve the right to shirk the blame for everything.
Where’s the Bluenose and them 12 pounders.
By Leasa 9:50AM
I gotta hand it to you…You waste no time in getting up and att’em. The grass won’t grow between your toes. Yes, you have the facts.
While there is little that we can do about controlling GHG emissions there is a lot we can do about creating/enhancing ghg sinks. The destruction of forests worldwide; The Amazon rain forests(lungs of the earth), other rain forests including those in BC, African forests(being converted to charcol for cooking) as well as boreal forests are losing ability to soak up Co2. This has to be stopped and reversed. Nature is our friend and, no matter the cost and sacrifice, we have to start helping her do her job. We seem to have unlimited resources for wars and destruction. Well, this is a war of a different kind that has to be won. We can win it by making the Earth a real Garden of Eden…that is the God given example we have to strive for.
WRT to Bali and Montreal, “Bali will be remembered by millions of Canadians and many more millions around the the world as the Climate Change Sumitt where “Loud mouth Baird, became known as “NO SHOW LOUD MOUTH BAIRD” and dats just the fact.
Its amazing to see how some people cannot and will not recognise the insincerity of the present Government and environment minister – Mr. Baird. I trust all Canadians who believe that we have to change our ways and embrace a Climate Change doctrine that helps our small planet, and who do not laugh in the face of scientists, like so many who align themselves with this farce of a government and its failure on such a dire issue, will bombard Mr. Baird with emails, faxes and phone calls – letting him know of their disgust at his lack of leadership and that he has let us down again…Shame on Baird, Shame on Mr. Harper. Mr. Dion has the leadership qualities we want. Let’s have an election and soon…
Hi Garth, I know Mr. Dion says he ‘got it done’. Mr. Dion also says that he’s a hero. I’ve looked and looked for an url or quote of anyone calling Mr. Dion a hero, and I cannot find one. – Leasa
How about me? I believe Stephane Dion is a hero.
What exactly did Mr. Dion ‘get done’ on climate? He’s waving his hands (in your last posted video) saying what a success he is. I don’t hear anyone else saying he did anything. – Leasa
His biggest achievement as minister of environment likely had to do with parks. Dion nearly doubled the size of parks, particularly around the great lakes. As for what he’s done as an MP, the Hansard has a record. By all means, take a good look at how they vote. (might learn something!)
Katrina Genuis from the CND Youth Delegation in Bali, said on CBC that Canada had the ‘reputation’ of ‘blocking climate talks’ until now. She said they “were thrilledâ€. – Leasa
What is missed is that Baird left at 10 pm the night they negotiated a deal. In other words, he wasn’t there. All through the conference, Baird did everything he could to scuttle any talk of committment to C02 production.
Our international reputation got shitkicked in Bali all week due to Bairds stances. And its shameful.
In a report from Montreal on Dec. 8, 2005, the BBC said “one of the main controversies at this conference†was an attempt by the Canadian minister of environment “to launch a two-year process of discussions outside the jurisdiction of the Kyoto agreement.†– Leasa
Due to the reality that the U.S. wasn’t willing to even be at the table, something had to be tried.
The BBC explained that “the aim is to set up a ‘parallel track’ to discuss various options for taking international action forward, which would enable both the Americans and developing countries to participate without committing themselves to specific targets on cutting or limiting emissions.†– Leasa
Sound familiar? – Leasa
Of course, Canada’s environment minister at the time was Stephane Dion.
(By ANGELO PERSICHILLI) – Leasa
Dion was dealing with a U.S. President that 2 years ago, would have scuttled any future talks to climate change C02 regulations in Bali. That is certain. Things are changing. Bush has a year left and the world is hoping Americans don’t elect another corporate lobbiest.
In the seven years between the signing of Kyoto in 1997 and 2004, here’s what happened: – Leasa
•Emissions worldwide increased 18.0 percent; – Leasa
•Emissions from countries that signed the treaty increased 21.1 percent; – Leasa
•Emissions from nonsigners increased 10.0 percent; and – Leasa
•Emissions from the United States increased 6.6 percent. – Leasa
~and we know they increased much more since 2004. – Leasa
These are facts Garth. – Leasa
You could have saved us time by simply putting up this link:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbon_Emission_by_Region.png
Note who the real polluters are.
You know they are. Okay, we KNOW what Mr. Dion says he got done, but really, what did he do? I think it behoves him to tell us why Kyoto failed under his government’s watch and explain clearly how he would do it different. What is his real workable plan? – Leasa
Its in the Liberal platform, if you care to look.
He didn’t get it done Garth, he didn’t get it done. – Leasa
He didn’t have the time to save the world, Leasa. He had 17 months.
I think Katrina is right. We should be thrilled that Canada is no longer blocking talks and bringing the world together on climate talks. – Leasa
Again, you are misinformed. Baird did nothing but stall any talks for future commitments to climate change all throughout his time spent at Bali. Its a matter of record. Its in the G & M, CBC, CTV, well, pretty much any media outlet that has a semblance of reputation as to what Baird tried to accomplish, which was to get rid of Kyoto to begin with. That was all Baird tried… and again, its shameful.
Smile Garth, Canada is on the right path. – It sure isn’t when it comes to the enviroment, war, trade, and the simplest of affairs such as a nuclear plant shutdown that the Cons had 2 years to prepare for, but scapegoated when it was time to take responsibility for what happened.
Good tidings to you and yours. – Leasa
Merry Christmas!
By Leasa on 12.16.07 9:50 am
Over and over, same old same old. The Liberals didn’t get it done, so this gives my gang carte blanche to do exactly the same.
What an embarrassing position.
Only now you use Ms. (Disin Genius) as reference instead of a snubbed, and likely pushy reporter. (In my opinion)
The Green Party was actually keeping people on their lists informed as to happenings at Bali. Sometimes several times a day. Kudos to the Green Party.
I’m quite sure they would be happy to have any past CPC voters apply for a member card.
Let the Truth be known..good job CAITI!
http://caiti-online.blogspot.com/
On the subject of tasers again. Anyone who thinks these things wouldn’t be used on a 68 yr old stroke victim, needs to read this story.
Mountie to be disciplined for using Taser on double-parked senior.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/12/14/bc-parkingtaserapology.html?ref=rss
By Blue Magic on 12.16.07 11:42 am
By taking up so much space you have forced me to skim over your “comment”. Can you noy say the same ting in a much more brief comment?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_burman/2007/12/canada_flounders_on_issue_of_c.html
This is pretty much the scoop with our international reputation since the arrival of Harper. Not much chance of mirroring the Liberals with these issues.
And this is what Bali accomplished thanks to the so called leadership Canada has these days:
http://www.thestar.com/sciencetech/Environment/article/285909
How serious is the issue of global warming? Its ugly serious:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cyc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_forcing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vostok-ice
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Five_
If readers take the time, these links and maps will help us to understand the seriousness of the situation.
In the past, ice ages and retreats were known to be cost by the astrological orbit of earth in relation to its distance from the sun, coinciding with the atmospheric changes that occur as a result of the presence of volcanoes or in the last tens of millions of years, in varying degree’s, of life itself.
Note that with these C02 variations provided on this link:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbo
Combined with this one:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Globa
And this one:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbo
Indicate how fast C02 is rising and which nations are most responsible. this next chart indicates the rise in tempurature, and greenhouse gases. Note where C02 has been.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Vosto
Note where its at now:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Carbo
Note this dire warning:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kyoto/stern-report
Scientists at Bali universally predict a 2 to 4 degree rise in earth’s overall average temperature in this century.
In other words, if we listen to climate change denials by for profit corps that benefit from dirty energy, we’ll likely end up as dinosaurs. C02 has an atmospheric half life of 80 years.
To answer to waht dit Stephane Dion get done? “Stephane Dion showed up at the meetings on time and contributed many positive points of view on behave of over 31 million Canadains who want clear air to breath and future for their children and grandchildren! So why did Mr (loud mouth) pull a George Jones and not show up, if he were on a drunk perhaps I could give him some slack that would be an excuse albeit bad, but fear of being asked a reasonable question…..give me a break. Then again how many times have I heard a Conservative member was asked to appear on radio or TV to comment on behave of “OUR GOVERMENT” only to hear not available for comment…..a thousand (1000) times perhaps!
That is exactly why the cons are afraid of Dion and spread lies about him constantly.
Thanks for this posting, Garth. It is right on!! Mr. Dion did indeed get it done in Montreal and he got it done in the midst of a federal election campaign. Dion’s critics choose to ignore the fact that he was Environment Minister for only 18 months and accomplished a great deal during that time. Thanks for helping to set the record straight.
By Ida Tjosvold on 12.16.07 11:49
With all due respect, I don’t take any heed to Persichilli’s viewpoints anymore. He’s been on Dion’s back for months after he was promoting Dion during the leadership race. There are just some journalists who are only content to be opposed – he’s one of them.
I hope this isn’t too, too hard for people to understand – Dion was ONLY environment minister for “18 months”. He had a plan and monies were put in place, plus the Montreal Convention in his pocket…and then, and then Harper/Layton pulled to government down – what the hell to you expect Dion to do then? Think about it.
The Environment Commissioner at the time said, yes, the Liberals failed – but, Dion had some promising initiatives – I watched her in an interview right after she gave the report. She criticized Harper’s plan and all of a sudden she was fired – suspicious or what.
I watched what she said in that interview myself – I heard her. These were the initiatives that Harper cancelled – now do you understand?
Harper/Ambrose/Baird have been handling the environment file for longer than Dion did – duh.
By Michael on 12.16.07 12:03 pm
Michael, I think with what you have written, you get my perspective regarding this old earth of ours. I believe that our real concerns with what we are doing to our fresh water supply…which even in Canada is limited. We fail to control our sewers and good water is spoiled every day. We still allow (about 50 years behind Europe) our wrecking yards that dot this country of ours. We allow wrecks with all their toxins to sit on bare land to leak into our aqua-filter.
We make band-aide attempt to curb urban sprawl, but I watch as every day, more and more of our arable land is swallowed up. There is truly very little arable soil on this earth, and we shall come to regret this sooner rather than later.
I came into possession of 30 acres of the most beautiful sensitive waterways in Ontario. It is abundant with many varieties of trees and wildlife. The only path to truly protect it was to donate it to those who’s job it is to over-see these lands. I do hope that in 100 years it hasn’t become yet another apartment building, parking lot or is sucked dry because of our lack of water.
It is my belief that smog will kill us long before GHG will. Carbon credits will not clean the air our children breath. I would some day like to see a world treaty where all countries must, must, must put the highest technology on their coal-fired plants. We do have high-tech scrubbers available today that will make such a huge impact, why aren’t we using them? If just Ontario in the next decade these plants run would invest in these scrubbers, then we’d all see an impact instantly. But, no, we will enter into a scheme that will bolster the C.C. market and money will be exchanged and NOTHING will change and our children will choke to death from smog.
So, yeah, my personal opinion is that Mr. Dion, Suzuki, Gore, et el, can stuff Kyoto and the C.C. market where the sun don’t shine.
Let’s begin again and get it right this time.
Later Tater…Leasa
Leasa – I wasn’t aware you were an expert/scientist – well I’ll be damned.
I live in rural Ontario in one of the most beautiful areas on the province. The water levels were dangerously low even in November – it was suggested at that time we may have to take it easy on our use of water.
Wolves and coyotes are running through town attacking cats/rabbits, etc. We’ve been warned to keep our pets inside. A friend of mine, who lives right in the middle of town, had a cat killed by a coyote. Why are they finding the need to come into residential areas for food?
I could go into more, but what’s the point. Leasa will say silly later taters, oozy woozy stuff, but just doesn’t get it.
I love this line….directed at the US (and Canada I think):
Mr Yudhoyono urged the conference not to allow “the planet to crumble because we can’t find the right wording.â€
Mr Ban said he was “disappointed at the lack of progress†and pointed out the conference was already due to have ended five hours earlier. This was at 1.20 pm local time.
The conference reconvened. South Africa made an emotional appeal for the Americans to reconsider their statement – and was supported by delegation after delegation from the developing world while Miss Dobriansky and James Connaughton, President Bush’s climate change adviser, talked increasingly animatedly off-microphone.
The killer blow came from the Harvard-educated representative of Papua New Guinea, Kevin Conrad, who used Mr Connaughton’s diplomatic gaffe of earlier in the week to humiliate the Americans.
Mr Connaughton had said: “We will lead. We will continue to lead but leadership also requires others to fall in line and follow.†Mr Conrad said, to applause: “If you are not willing to lead, then get out of the way.â€
Miss Dobriansky finally pressed her button to speak again and said: “We will go forward and join the consensus.â€
Right on….
“If you are not willing to lead, then get out of the way.â€
Ok liberals, I get it the world is about to end from climate change.
Only Dion can save Canada from the evil denier Harper.
Then why did Dion sit on his arse over the throne speech?
The world going to end but the liberals would not take the postion layed in the throne seech on the enviroment to the polls.
Sorry Garth you sat on your hands, you and your party (never mind the record you libs had while in power) have no cred on this issue.
Still pissed Dion did not fall for that trap? — Garth
A couple of points:
1. Dion was called a “hero” by environmentalists after the successful 2005 UNFCCC of which he was President. Here’s the quote and the link from Embassy, December 14, 2005:
The Sierra Club Canada compared Dion’s stellar work in international negotiations with Ambrose’s complete failure, saying:
2. Click
here for video from COP11 in Montreal of some of Dion’s press conferences and his opening speech.
Video of Dion’s press conference at Bali is available here.
(If that link doesn’t work, click here and scroll down to 4:30pm – 5:00pm, Globe International…)
Autre chose … Garth’s faithful readers may be interested to be reminded that, contrary to a lot of the propaganda we hear from Canada’s fossil government, greenhouse gas emissions (GHGs) actually FELL in 2004/05 while Dion was Environment Minister:
In addition, the energy efficiency of oil production improved by 45% during the terms of the Chrétien & Martin Liberal governments. The Liberals succeeded at improving energy efficiency of the oil/gas industry, cars, etc.; and were vigorously working on the second step, reducing absolute emissions, when the Martin government was brought down. The Conservatives cancelled billions of dollars in Liberal climate change plans. Then blamed the Liberals.
Click here for video.
By Heather on 12.16.07 3:30 pm
Thank you Heather for providing this information. Honestly, all this time and you are the first person to answer the question as to who called Mr. Dion a ‘hero’.
Okay, so now we know, John Bennett said Mr. Dion should be called a hero.
The article you gave still gives me cause for concern. Re: the purchase of Carbon Credits. According to the article, it is exactly what I thought. Under Mr. Dion Canada would immediately purchase around $5 billion dollars worth of credits per year. Now, we know how government programs work…I think we can safely say it would be much more by the time the Credits are over-valued because the market knows Canada will be forced to buy. I think $10 billion at least would be a safer bet. So, where will the money come from? Also, how on earth does this plan actually help the environment? It allows countries like China who are becoming the worlds biggest polluters to pollute even more. China as you know is right now building many more coal fired plants…China is a wealthy country. How on earth can we buy credits from this country and do it with a straight face?
Oh well, at least I know who thinks Mr. Dion was a hero. Thank you.
Leasa
Leasa, there’s this thing called Google. If you are truly interested in fighting climate change, and not just regurgitating Conservative propaganda, you might try doing some research. You might also try paying attention to the environmental NGOs who are at the forefront of the fight and who have enormous respect for Stéphane Dion. I myself was a lifelong New Democrat until Dion won the Liberal leadership and I did a lot of research on him. The more I learn about him, the more I admire and respect him. If you care about the environment, he’s the person who can turn things around. If you don’t care about the environment, don’t bother pretending to.
By Heather on 12.16.07 4:00 pm
Heather I applaud your effort, but I think the spin is a bit much since it is a LPOC website, as it would be on a CPC party website.
It looks like the emissions did not go down under Dion as Inviro. Min.
http://www.ec.gc.ca/pdb/ghg/inventory_report/2005_report/images/fs_1_l_eng.gif
ES.3.2.2 Long-Term Trends
Although the long-term (1990-2005) sectoral emission trends showed both declines and increases, the increases were well ahead of the declines, for a net growth of 151 Mt, or 25%. The largest portion of the growth is observed in the Energy Sector, where the Energy Industries (fossil fuel industries plus Electricity and Heat Generation), Road Transportation, Commercial & Institutional, and Mining categories made the greatest contributions.
http://www.ec.gc.ca/pdb/ghg/inventory_report/2005_report/som-sum_eng.cfm#s2
The above site makes excellent reading, and really brings home how complicated an issue this is.
Point is, when Mr. Dion and his government lost power we were still eons away from ever reaching any kind of target and emissions grew wildly over the last decade of their reign. The Liberals were ‘implementing Kyoto’ for well over a decade. Mr. Harper has been in power for two years and has to start from scratch. Let’s be fair.
Regards, Leasa
Broken conservative promises .
Defence department red-flags 52 military contracts
David Pugliese , CanWest News Service
Published: Saturday, December 15, 2007
OTTAWA – Defence Department officials are recommending audits or reviews for 52 contracts totalling more than $1 billion after determining that the deals exhibited “high risk attributes.”
The Defence Department’s financial watchdog, the Chief of Review Services, looked over 347 operations and maintenance contracts and found that 72 had each gone over budget by 130 per cent.
Also, 43 of the companies involved in operations and maintenance contracts were found to have had a history of excess profits on past government deals, or of posting additional claims on such contracts greater than $350,000, according to the Chief of Review Services report
Dion must precipitate a vote of non-confidence in early February to stop a Spring Budget, and to use Kyoto as the main issue for the election in March.
The Liberals will be able to energize the 18-25 year old vote which is massively 80% Liberal, to vote for Kyoto, thus cutting their own throats because they are willing to sacrifice their parent’s jobs,and their jobs too all to ’save the planet’ with a Kyoto Carbon Tax. These kids mostly live at home and depend on their parents for financial support, so they can feel socialistically altruistic in their sloth.
Yes it appears the Dion Liberals are looking at the ‘perfect storm’ for election advantage and they are riding high on the Bali-Kyoto tide in Canada. This opportunity must not be wasted with delay and abstention.
If Dion waits until the Spring Budget and giving the Conservatives time to deflate the Kyoto controversy, his position will be compromised. He must strike while the poker is hot hot hot ..!!
No confidence vote in early February and voting day in March .. are you ready Garth ..??!!
Garth wrote:
Here is a refresher on Stephane Dion, who got the job done. — Garth
The why did Iggy say “We didn’t get it done1″ in the leader’s debate during the Liberal Leadership race. Dion replied, “That’s not fair”. Was Iggy lying or are you lying now? Which is it Garth? Both of you can’t be right.
Leasa – I wasn’t aware you were an expert/scientist – well I’ll be damned.
I live in rural Ontario in one of the most beautiful areas on the province. The water levels were dangerously low even in November – it was suggested at that time we may have to take it easy on our use of water.
Wolves and coyotes are running through town attacking cats/rabbits, etc. We’ve been warned to keep our pets inside. A friend of mine, who lives right in the middle of town, had a cat killed by a coyote. Why are they finding the need to come into residential areas for food?
I could go into more, but what’s the point. Leasa will say silly later taters, oozy woozy stuff, but just doesn’t get it.
By slg on 12.16.07 2:49 pm
What I don’t ‘get’ my friend is you. In your reply, you pretty much agreed with what I had written, then the last sentence you get nasty? Why is that?
Why are coyotes coming into neighbourhoods? Read my post. You are living in the middle of their natural habitat, not the other way around. I live with bush all around me and we’ve never had a dog or cat killed by coyotes. I’ve seen wolf in my area…even had one in my back yard once, but have never had to shoot one yet. Why? Because I have bush all around me…they have lots of room to move and lots of rabbit, possum, mice etc. to eat. Urban sprawl is a big deal. Look at the news…deer in shopping centres, in back yards, running around neighbourhoods…simply because they forgot to leave at least some acreage…they took their homes and forgot them. Where do they go? Country ‘neighbourhoods’ aren’t what they used to be. A country neighbourhood was a group of 4 or 5 houses on a road surrounded by bush and farm land. Now they are massive ’sub-divisions’ where the owners commute to the nearest city to work.
We need arable soil to produce our food. We need bush to keep nature in balance. We need fresh water in order to live. On that I think we agree?
Oh, and I say nice things because I mean it. I actually like most people.
Leasa
I am sick and tired of all the political posturing over the climate change question – the Canadian Government has been avoiding and evading ever since the question first appeared on the scene. The present one continues in the time-honoured path of non-involvement, with a NEW spin on how to duck the issue.
The trouble is that the longer effective action is put off, the more it is going to cost, socially, economically, environmentally.
I greatly fear that I will see the ill-effects of our ostrich-like behaviour in my lifetime, and I am 60.
The reasoned objections of the elected, and the bureaucratic obstructions of the appointed have got me so mad I have to watch the old blood pressure.
What we need is a new Jim Morrison to scream “WAKE UP!”
“The[n] why did Iggy say ‘We didn’t get it done[!
1]‘ in the leader’s debate during the Liberal Leadership race.”By Van on 12.16.07 5:16 pm
Dear Van,
Isn’t it obvious why Iggy said, ‘We didn’t get it done’??? It must be because… “Iggy is not a leader too”… right Van?
And isn’t it obbvious to everyone that “EVERYONE who holds a LIBERAL membership IS NOT A LEADER!!!”?
As a matter of fact the only people worthy of the NAME-TAG ‘leader’ are card-carrying Conservatives… isn’t that right Van?
Or is it just Stephen Harper who gets to use the slogan ‘ME LEADER’?
Please advise.
Sincerely,
MB
A far cry from agreeing on what they’ll be talking about in two years time like we saw in Bali. Embarrassing work by our government overseas.
I agree with you Heather; M. Dion is deserving of respect and support.
I think he’s been subjected to the syndrome of a prophet not being appreciated in his home town (province/country by extension). I have said before, members of the wider international community recognise and appreciate his diplomatic skills and leadership qualities, and I’m sure that given the chance in Canada, he will not disappoint. And yes, I am an Ontario voter who cares not one whit that he hails from Québec.
Mr Garth TurnerMP,
For anyone that mist the link to
‘how it all ends’. Why we need to do something about climate change NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/user/wonderingmind42
We need to drastically stop burning fossil fuels to get the energy we need before 2012 or we will see the BRUTAL effects of climate change in our life times. Your money will not safe you!
It’ll be a one way trip to HELL on earth!
There is nothing good about climate change!
Do you care about your family and other human beings? What are you doing to help? Does you local government have a plan to help ous all stop global cliamte change and deal with peak-oil?
Think globally and act locally as you can.
By William Laidlaw on 12.16.07 6:35 pm
I am sick and tired of all the political posturing over the climate change question – the Canadian Government has been avoiding and evading ever since the question first appeared on the scene. The present one continues in the time-honoured path of non-involvement, with a NEW spin on how to duck the issue.
The trouble is that the longer effective action is put off, the more it is going to cost, socially, economically, environmentally.
I greatly fear that I will see the ill-effects of our ostrich-like behaviour in my lifetime, and I am 60.
The reasoned objections of the elected, and the bureaucratic obstructions of the appointed have got me so mad I have to watch the old blood pressure.
What we need is a new Jim Morrison to scream “WAKE UP!â€
……………………………………………………………………..
Get real, William … the Harper government is trying to get Canada off the Kyoto hook that the previous Chretien-Martin-Dion governments hung us on with their 33% GHG excess they deliberately created on their watch .. and that reality nobody can deny. Now to slag the Conservatives for trying to extend our Kyoto deadlines so we can reasonably handle the Liberal created GHG excess is quite disingenuous and political opportunism at it’s worse.
Quite bluntly, Harper does not want to give the Chinese, Indians, Russians, Billion$$$ of Canadian taxpayers money as a Liberal devised gift to these countries who are in competition with Canadian companies and workers. The braying environmentalists are very suspect as agents of the Chinese et al, because their shouting sounds similar to that of the Dion Liberals .. and we know the Liberal connection to China through powercorp-CITIC and CSL.
Kyoto is not a simple matter of reducing our excess GHGs by simply shutting off a switch and no more GHGs .. they are the basis of our country’s economy and any reduction will mean shutting down sectors of our economy. Purchasing Kyoto Carbon Credits to mitigate our Liberal 33% GHG excess is only another way of imposing a Liberal Carbon Tax on all Canadians.
Is that what you want .. giving Billion$$$ to China et al and shutting down Canadian industry and resources .. will that make you happy and content once your guilt-ridden angst over Canada destroying the planet with it’s puny 2% total GHG production is relieved ..?? Just vote Liberal if that’s what will make you happy (and stupid too) …. after all, ignorance is bliss.. TAX ME I’M CANADIAN ..!!!
Mr Garth TurnerMP
Re: Bill C-484, Private members Bill.
I heard some decusion on CPAC on thur. regarding the bill C-484, unborn victums of crime act.
It sound like a ‘bad’ Bill.
I would vote against it.
It will make abortions a criminal act.
Women have and should contine to have free choise, and access to safe abortions for unwanted pregnaces if they chose. If there is evidence that babies are being aborted only because of there sex, we might want a law to ban telling people what the unborn sex is.
Money would be better spent on birth control education and access, good medical care diring pregnaces.
Not all birth control is 100%, I know a couple on the pill that got pregnant, and they are both MD’s.
Anything that can help women have healthy ‘wanted’ babies when and if they chose to is always a good thing.
Warning lables on alcohole about possible harm to the unborn. Or removing fluoride from drinking water so the newborns don’t drink it. It’ll lower there IQ! Boiling water make it more concentrated and brital filters don’t take it out. It’s industrial toxic waste from the phosphate industry, with traces of arcinic and lead also. http://www.fluoridealert.org/
Don’t we want smart people in this country?
Mr Garth TurnerMP,
Worth renting/seeing,
Just saw DVD today(rented),
‘Manufacturing CONSENT, Noam Chomsky and the Media’. 167min long, plug extra interveiw with directors and Noam Chomshy in 2007.
http://www.mongrelmedia.com/video.html
Also saw a couple weeks ago(rented), it was interesting but slow,
‘Manufactured Landscapes’
http://www.mongrelmedia.com/films/ManufacturedLandscapes.html
For anyone else that wants to know more about what peak-oil is about you should see/rent ‘A Crude awakening, the oil crash’.
http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/
New movie about climate change coming out soon, the 11th hour.(I haven’t seen it yet.)
http://wip.warnerbros.com/11thhour/
Greg, the sad fact is that our country produces what the world wants. It is the world’s demand for our goods and energy that drives the Canadian economy. The world will still get our resources and energy regardless of what we as consumers do. If you want to pressure government into putting more regulations on companies, fine, fill your boots, but the fact is, our oil will be refined, our minerals mined, and our goods exported. You can do what you want to reduce your GHG emmissions, but it won’t matter. The GHG emmissions of our economic drivers far outweigh Canadians output as individuals. So its not convincing Canadians they have to act, we have, lights, composting, recycling, low flow, etc, its the rest of the world that needs to be convinced they don’t need our stuff.
Kerry
Harry S, On.,
What have you done lately to reduce your personal carbon foot print?
Man made climate change is a Global issue we ALL need to deal with and stop NOW, or we will all be F***ED!!!
We all need to help stop climate change now.
You don’t seem to get it, or care about other human beings on our only planet.
Are you informed or a critical thinker?
Are you going to help be part of the solution to stop climate change now? or get out of the way!!!
Steve and the CONS lie about Dions Kyoto record.
According to internal government documents, had the Conservatives not scrapped Project Green, Canada would have met 80 per cent of its Kyoto targets two years before the deadline.
Leasa, here is some information on how carbon offsets work:
Carbon offsets are simply credits for emission reductions achieved by projects elsewhere, such as wind farms, solar installations, or energy efficiency projects. By purchasing these credits, you can apply them to your own emissions and reduce your net climate impact.
Your continual rants about Canada giving money to China through carbon credits and ‘allowing them to continue to pollute’ are simply nonsense. It is true that Canada could buy carbon credits from China – but these carbon credits are based on CARBON EMISSION REDUCTIONS that have been achieved by projects in China.
A carbon credit isn’t just money that gets thrown into some black sink hole somewhere. They are credits that are purchased from another country or industry that has achieved carbon emission reductions.
This concept has worked well in the U.S. to help reduce acid rain and it was the United States that suggested carbon credits in the first place. Rather than rant about something, it may be more beneficial for you to learn about how the concept works first.
Harry S…. please read my post to Leasa regarding how carbon credits work. There is little point in you ranting about something which you obviously do not understand.
on bill c484, I have to agree with Greg…the recriminalization of abortion is being proposed through a backdoor route. Of course, it is aborhent that a woman is targetted for assault during pregnancy but the MP proposing this bill is from a group that’s stated goal is to criminalize abortion. This is dangerous territory.
Harry S.
Get your head out of the past – everything that has been done to date is smoke and mirrors – posturing without substance – and postponing effective action – that includes your pet buggaboo of trading cash for carbon – that is a stupid idea that only benefits the carbon producers.
Stop hurling invective and start implementing effective measures. How many motor vehicles do you own? Do you vacation in a tropical resort? How much electricity do you use? Does your electrical utility make it easy for you to intertie? How much of your groceries are produced within 100 km of where you live? How much water do you use?
Etc, etc, etc.
By TS on 12.16.07 10:53 pm
Good morning TS, Actually I do understand supply & demand markets. I also have a bit of an understanding on the China C.C. Market. China has capped old gas wells, and thus developed a huge C.C. market, and true to form they are undercutting the world market. ON the other hand, China is quickly becoming the world’s largest GHG emitter and by not having to sign on to any global reduction targets, they get to perpetuate the C.C. market without ever having to buy the credits themselves. Wow!
Business interests literally flocked to China to buy their cheap credits. As demand for these credits build, the price comes up. So, buy cheap in China, set on them, a treaty like Kyoto comes into effect and you can sell your credits for huge, huge, huge profits.
It is a scam. It is bogus. In the end, buying credits does absolutely nothing for the environment. But, the sales pitch is good, people are swayed and they believe it does. Well, at least we’ll be able to spend our billions buying credits that were bought from China, and the people will have bought some ‘feel good’.
Maybe Santa will leave some C.C. stock in your stocking this year! Salutations, Leasa
“And as China is the market leader in terms of CER supply, we would expect it to be the price-setter for carbon credits,” said Mr Taylor. Also, getting Chinese projects registered at the UN was is easier because the environment laws in China are not as strict as India’s, said Mr Das. Projects driven by rules do not qualify as CDM projects. ”
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2006/08/27/stories/2006082703600100.htm
By Deb Prothero on 12.16.07 11:18 pm
Hi Deb, Do you really believe that? I think that any woman who lost a viable fetus because someone beat the hell out of her would disagree. Right now, someone can physically assault a pregnant woman carrying a full-term baby, kill the baby and only be charged with assault. I think were it me, I’d want him charged with the death of my child. Wouldn’t you? The legislation says ’causes the death of the fetus due to a ‘criminal act’, abortion is not a criminal act. Completely totally separate issues. To try and tie them together is wrong, because that is not what this is about. L
TS on 12.16.07 10:53 pm,
A carbon credit market might work in theory but in practice it simply becomes another market for speculation.
Your argument that one company could buy credits from another so that it can continue to emit green house gases, coupled with the fact that other industries can increase output of green house gases at the same time suggests that the whole concept is not really designed to reduce overall emissions but as a means of reallocating global wealth.
On the other hand, the argument put forward by Harper, Baird, et. al. that there is no point in our country working to reduce emissions if countries like India and China are not forced to reduce theirs is probably even less of a solution.
The choices have come down to a questionable solution and maintenance of the status quo.
For example, there is an argument out there that the reason that countries like Britain have been able to reduce emissions it that they have simply transferred emissions to the developing world. The same thing can be said about the U.S.
If we were really serious about reducing emissions rather than playing financial games, we would be pressuring countries to reduce emissions through trade restrictions.
That is considered “morally” wrong in the religion of globalization.
By Leasa on 12.17.07 7:16 am
More generalizations, how long do you suppose credits from those gas wells will last and how significant will their impact be in the long term? You say that although China is cutting emissions to earn credits by improving some areas, their total emissions rise dramatically as their economy grows? Sound familiar? Think Canada.
Bogus? Scam? Think Air Bus, think Armored cars, think Coleson Cove, think Adscam, think a top up of almost a billion to Quebec, 350 million grant Pratt and Whitney, distinct nation, six barrels of water to one barrel of syncrude, massive disposal pits, GST, Nafta, appointing non elected persons to cabinet and the looming SPP/NAU potential for Board appointments and misc. $1,000 dollar bills. Think the benefits of sending Baird to Bali. Think think think. Too much rhetoric and cherry picking, too little thinking.
So Leasa, how are those Patronage treats doing anyway? Up til the midnight oil burns and back at it when the rooster crows. Interesting how the Help desk keeps feeding you more material on which to base excuses each and every day. Are they coming to realize that Bali was their Waterloo?
http://www.fotosearch.com/IDX034/384367/
So as the last line of defense, the Help desk goes after Carbon Credits, throws its hands in the air, and yelps “throw out the baby with the bathwater”
You seem to be missing a common concept here. Whenever an initiative is taken that is sizable, and in this case global, there will be profit seekers. This is where free market comes into play and that is what CPC and Republican principles are based on, are they not?
Free markets find their level, and although plans are laid, and carefully calculated sometimes the best laid plans of mice and men go awry. Astute and experienced participants will adjust to market forces to achieve the desired goals.
The current direction of deflect, defer and do nothing, is in a word;
SCANDALOUS! SIMPLY SCANDALOUS!
Also, from your own reference;
f you were to break up the carbon credit, how much of that you think India would garner because we understand China is competitive as well in that space?
The Minister of Environment said recently that India has 203 projects that it has approved and they will generate 195 million tonnes of carbon credits. I mean globally what we are seeing at UN level is that 125 million tonnes of carbon credits will be generated from the projects that have been registered and in the UN pipeline, which will not include all the CDM projects that India has approved, we are looking at 575 million tonnes of carbon credits. So India at the moment plays a significant role. I think that we had a very positive regulatory environment in this country from the Designated National Authorities (DNA) the Ministry of Environment, which helped India, move quickly. China and Brazil will come into this market longer term, mainly China with a lot of HFC projects, with a lot of coal mine methane projects and they are going to really push a large volume of carbon credits.
Corporate Biggies Warm Up To Carbon Credit Trade
MUMBAI: THE carbon credit trade is entering the big league, with large Indian business houses jumping onto the bandwagon. After small- and mid-sized companies, it’s now the turn of the Birlas and the Ambanis to explore options of cashing in on efficient production technologies to boost profitability, as polluting foreign companies rush to meet international deadlines starting next year. The trend could witness the entry of India’s Exim Bank as a key player in facilitating trading in carbon credits.
India is considered one of the largest beneficiaries in carbon credit trade, accounting for about $5bn, or 31%, of the total world carbon trade through the Clean Development Mechanism. In what could be the first such public disclosure, a senior Aditya Birla group executive said Grasim Industries is talking to various international companies, while a Reliance Industries official privately admitted that India’s largest private refiner and petrochemicals maker is negotiating with European firms to explore ways of selling credits earned through tight emission controls.
Carbon credits are certificates issued to companies that reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. These credits are then sold to companies who cannot fulfil the protocol norms.
THIS last paragraph supports what TS posted. So they reward initiative, and penalize those who cling to the status quo.
Imagine Leasa, if major developed countries got on board, and made concerted efforts to reduce their GHG’s, what that would do to the speculators. Just Imagine.
http://greenventuresindia.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html
Why is it Harper always gloats, pretending to be a leader when the only thing he has been doing is carbon-copying the US? I don’t call that a leader, I call that a brown-noser. But he tries to leads the CPC so tightly that if he were ever to break/leave, the whole CPC would fall apart, kind of like under Day, I’d guess.
If you want to have good cred on the issue, I’d say do like the GPC in sept 2006 and put out a plan which includes measures that have been studied in a CPC’s own report: $50/ton emissions tax won’t affect the economy. You can then say “we told you how it could be done yet you sat on your hands”. Avoid criticizing the CPC enviro plan (or lack thereof) until the people knows your own very well. This is one spot where I wouldn’t keep my cards too close to myself simply on the basis of strategy.
Ignatieff: “We didn’t get it done … WE DIDN’T GET IT DONE !!!”
Dryden: “What stopped us, why didn’t we do better !!”
Why were they attacking Dion’s and the Liberal government’s past record on the Kyoto Treaty??
Just look at this graph of Canada’s GHG emissions during the Chretien-Martin-Dion governments and it will explain the Liberal failure.
http://www.ec.gc.ca/pdb/ghg/inventory_report/2005_report/images/fs_1_l_eng.gif
Dion joined the Chretien government as a Minister in 1996 to 2003. In that period Canada’s GHGs increased by a massive 100 Mt (100 Million tonnes). As a minister he was fully aware of the situation, and cannot plead ignorance or escape responsibility. There was no attempt within the Chretien-Dion government to cap GHG emission to meet our Kyoto obligations in a timely manner. It was a record of intentional neglect, and Dion must share the responsibility for that planned failure.
Dion was then named Environment Minister in the Martin government from 2004 until the fall of that government in February 2006. In this time he proposed to Cabinet a ‘Project Green’ plan to drive down GHGs (including an iniitial $5 Billion for Kyoto Carbon Credits). Dion failed to convince then PM Martin to make Kyoto a ‘priority’ due to lack of leadership on his part. His failures were confirmed by Ignatieff and Dryden in the Liberal leadership race.
Should Canadians now give Dion a ’second chance’ to impose his draconian taxation measures to force Canadians to meet their Kyoto GHGs targets .. while the Chinese, Indians, Russians are spewing amounts of GHGs that dwarfs Canada’s GHGs, and even send them Billion$$$ and penalize our economy ??
Let Dion lead the Liberal party into an election in February 2008, to ask Canadians for their support, rather than abstaining and making his Kyoto plans all the more difficult and costly to Canadians. Dion certainly “didn’t get it done” by abstaining and allowing the problem to get even more critical under the Kyoto agreement.
It’s obvious that if a Dion Liberal government is elected by say March 2008, there will be no way Canada will be able to physically reduce it’s GHG emission to meet our 2012 Kyoto target without shutting down large sectors of our economy (AB oil sands, Nanticoke ON), Dion’s only recourse will be to buy Billion$$$ of Kyoto Carbon Credits from China et al, and a Liberal Carbon Tax on all Canadians.
No significant GHG reduction in Canada, and only buying our way out of the Liberal created mess with Billion$$$ of Canadian taxpayer’s money. Is that what Canadians want, or will they vote for a more reasonable Conservative plan to extend our Kyoto targets so that we can actually reduce the Liberal created GHGs ??
Garth ???
It will be interesting to see how much GHGs increased from January 23, 2006 until the end of 2007 and beyond, won’t it? — Garth
By Greg on 12.17.07 9:49 am
So Greg, I will ignore, the patronage insult and reply:
It does not make sense to allow China & India & the U.S. to profit from the CC market without having to meet targets themselves. China is building how many coal burning plants?
Think about it. They cap a few wells, are given the CC credits to sell, use the money to build even more coal fired plants…Hello?
L
By Harry S on 12.17.07 11:20 am
It will be interesting to see how much GHGs increased from January 23, 2006 until the end of 2007 and beyond, won’t it? — Garth
Yes it will, Garth, but the real story is the total lack of preparation by the Chretien-Martin-Dion government to put into place GHG-reduction programs to hold down GHG growth before and after January 23, 2006.
GHG increases are like a train coming down the tracks, they can’t be stopped instantaneously (unless you shut down the oil sands and Nanticoke). But now after Bali it’s all moot because new targets are being set for 2020, and it looks like Canada will not acheive those targets either all because your Liberal governments have shoved Canada so far down the Kyoto hole with their 33% GHG initial excess.
Liberal covert strategy was obvious to intentionally allow Canada’s GHGs to grow to an untenable point, and the only way to mitigate it would be with Billion$$$ of Kyoto Carbon Credits from China et al.
So much for your tax-depleting income-splitting ideas .. the tax money will be required for Liberal friends in China. No wonder Dion doesn’t support your ideas !!!
Don’t forget that in order to have CC to sell, a country MUST have reduced their carbon output. This is a good thing.
With Dion’s plan the companies who will buy CC instead of reducing their own carbon output will also pay huge fines to a fund that companies can draw on to improve their emissions. There are many incentives for companies to reduce their emissions.
Great plan and it will work when Dion is elected.
By Harry S on 12.17.07 11:20 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuc4HtT13c0
Waterloo Waterloo where will you meet your Waterloo
Every puppy has his day everybody has to pay everybody has to meet his Waterloo
Now ol’ Adam was the first in history with an apple he was tempted and deceived
Just for spite the devil made him take a bite
And that’s where ol’ Adam met his Waterloo
Waterloo Waterloo…
Little General Napoleon of France tried to conquer the world but lost his pants
Met defeat known as Bonaparte’s retreat and that’s where Napoleon met his Waterloo
Waterloo Waterloo…
Now a feller who’s darling proved untrue took her life but he lost his too
Now he swings where the little birdie sings
And that’s where Harper and Baird met their Waterloo
Waterloo Waterloo…
Comrade Okie
By Harry S on 12.17.07 11:20 am
I’ll use your own argument, Harry: Dion was only env. minister in 2004-2005. The graph shows no increase in those months. I wonder what the ‘Baird’ graph will look like.
How’s that PMO chair, btw? Did you also take up reading Harper’s book “How to get elected?”
Hey Garth, talk about special interest and Kyoto Extremists!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22896334-2,00.html
No more babies!
Professor Walters, clinical associate professor of obstetric medicine at the University of Western Australia and the King Edward Memorial Hospital in Perth, called for condoms and “greenhouse-friendly” services such as sterilisation procedures to earn carbon credits.
And he implied the Federal Government should ditch the $4133 baby bonus and consider population controls like those in China and India.
~Ya know, as the article already shows, there are those who would actually like to see this happen. (sigh)
I just hope it’s not retro. Leasa
Think about it. They cap a few wells, are given the CC credits to sell, use the money to build even more coal fired plants…Hello?
L
By Leasa on 12.17.07 11:42 am
Well Leasa, I guess all we have to do is cap a few wells and get a bunch of Carbon Credits to sell. Then we can use the money to drill more, or better still use it to build that rapid transit system that Mr. Got Rope used to tell us about. Jobs Jobs Jobs! Clean Clean Clean!
Uhhhh, think about it. Hello!
I wonder what Bushco would have to say about that plan eh?
Earth to George. Earth to George. Calling Interplanetary most Extraordinary Craft.
George sends his reply, “Toad ya dey wuz all commies”
BTW, sorry if you were offended by my little partisan poke. I wuz jus’ havin’ a little fun witch ya..
Li Li Life is hard eh?
Along with carbon credits which can be traded by corporations, Dion’s Project Green included penalties for corporations emitting over their alloted amount. These penalties would be monetary and would be held by an arms-length body. The emitter could recover these penalties by lowering emissions. Each year there was a delay in lowering emissions, the refund would be proportionately less. If they failed to recover any of the penalty, the amount left in the fund would go to green projects decided upon by a panel who were involved with such projects.
This would all be audited.
This is what I recall from reading the Dion/Liberal plan. If anyone wants to look it up, it was called, “Project Green -Moving Forward on Climate Change–A Plan for Honouring our Kyoto Commitment” and an updated portion of this plan, called “Balancing our Carbon Budget”.
Thanks a lot, Heather, for your posts.
They should have added a lot to the understanding of all Dion and the Liberals did do on climate change, contrary to the much repeated chants from the CPCs that they did nothing.
It may be true that if a lie is repeated ofter enough, a lot of people will believe it.
More news from ZENN car manufacturer.
Zenn electric car still stops at the gas pump while awaiting provincial approvals
http://www.canadaeast.com/business/article/158567
Harper has promised the U.S. to quadruple oil and gas exploration in secret meetings in Houston. It will be interesting to see how emissions rise. 50% of oil and gas exports out of Alberta go to the U.S. He will have to blame the Liberals! I’m getting tired of that swan song!
Is that what you want .. giving Billion$$$ to China et al and shutting down Canadian industry and resources .. will that make you happy and content Harry On
Harry ,Harry you must stop sipping the kool-aid that is making you so paranoid.
Yikes!you are spewing the biggest load of BS ever to be jeered at.
FAct 1-Alberta passed the Climate Change Emissions Act in MArch of 2007 that legislates that all Companies who emit more than 100,000 tonnes of C02 annually must reduce their emissions by 12% or to 88,000 tonnes. Their are about 110 companies who have to comply with this legislation in Alberta.
FAct 2 This is the first legislation of it’s type in North America and it offers the LArge Final Emitter Companies three options 1.they can reduce their emissions in-house, 2. they can pay into a government sponsored technology fund or 3. they can purchase carbon offsets from an unregulated sector like Agriculture as long as they are real,from Alberta and quantified to an international auditing standard.
What is not generally recognized is that this Act opens up a green market revenue opportunity for farmer in Alberta,since the regulations state that LFE’s cannot import offsets from any place other than Alberta.
On the one hand the government is regulating the amount of emissions companies(LFE)can emit,the market is incenting a previosly unregulated sector like agriculture to reduce it’s emissions 25% by using best environmental practises so now we are talking about a real reduction of 25% from the farmers and a 12% intensity reduction from the LFE’s. The money stays in Alberta to help our economy and does not go to China or anywhere else.
I know Harry in your case it is easier to run around screaming nonsense but give us Canadian business people a little credit. We are not politicians.
The Feds and other Provinces are watching us and then they will be doing in the next year. One size doesn’t fit all in Canada but this is a good start to saving our Canada while preserving our economy.
By Calberta on 12.17.07 3:17 pm
FAct 1-Alberta passed the Climate Change Emissions Act in MArch of 2007 that legislates that all Companies who emit more than 100,000 tonnes of C02 annually must reduce their emissions by 12% or to 88,000 tonnes. Their are about 110 companies who have to comply with this legislation in Alberta.
FAct 2 This is the first legislation of it’s type in North America and it offers the LArge Final Emitter Companies three options 1.they can reduce their emissions in-house, 2. they can pay into a government sponsored technology fund or 3. they can purchase carbon offsets from an unregulated sector like Agriculture as long as they are real,from Alberta and quantified to an international auditing standard.
What is not generally recognized is that this Act opens up a green market revenue opportunity for farmer in Alberta,since the regulations state that LFE’s cannot import offsets from any place other than Alberta.
On the one hand the government is regulating the amount of emissions companies(LFE) can emit,the market is incenting a previously unregulated sector like agriculture to reduce it’s emissions 25% by using best environmental practises so now we are talking about a real reduction of 25% from the farmers and a 12% intensity reduction from the LFE’s. The money stays in Alberta to help our economy and does not go to China or anywhere else.
I know Harry in your case it is easier to run around screaming nonsense but give us Canadian business people a little credit. We are not politicians.
The Feds and other Provinces are watching us and then they will be doing in the next year. One size doesn’t fit all in Canada but this is a good start to saving our Canada while preserving our economy.
………………………………………………………
Kudos to Alberta, Calberta … for their enlightened GHG legislation and keeping some of the money in Alberta.
Minister Baird said he was receptive to domestic carbon trading and even N American carbon trading .. but giving the money to China et al who are not obliged to reduce their absolute GHG emissions is a no-no. Why shoot Canada’s economy in the foot, knee, and belly by sending Billion$$$ to the friends of the Liberals in China … no way ….!!!!
BTW … nationally, Quebec would be a huge source of domestic carbon credits due to their massive hydro-electric projects … so the Alberta oil sands developers can send Billion$$$$ to Quebec and keep the money in Canada … neat, eh …??!!
Wolves and coyotes are running through town attacking cats/rabbits, etc. We’ve been warned to keep our pets inside. A friend of mine, who lives right in the middle of town, had a cat killed by a coyote. Why are they finding the need to come into residential areas for food?
I could go into more, but what’s the point. Leasa will say silly later taters, oozy woozy stuff, but just doesn’t get it.
By slg on 12.16.07 2:49 pm
Slug, then why did you move into their habitat in the first place? You could live in existing communties in density housing if you were truly environmentally conscience. Oh I forgot, “it’s not me, it’s them” mindset with you.
Autre chose … Garth’s faithful readers may be interested to be reminded that, contrary to a lot of the propaganda we hear from Canada’s fossil government, greenhouse gas emissions (GHGs) actually FELL in 2004/05 while Dion was Environment Minister:
Recently released [May 2007] government documents show greenhouse gas emissions in Canada’s industrial sector declined in 2005 while Stéphane Dion was Environment Minister in the previous Liberal Government….
Required reporting information released by Environment Canada shows that Canada’s large industries reduced their annual greenhouse gas emissions by 150,000 tonnes in 2005. It also shows that companies who had to report in both 2004 and 2005 reduced their emissions by roughly 0.6 per cent – a reduction of about 1.7 million tonnes. In all, over 160 large Canadian companies reduced their GHG emissions in absolute terms 2005.
Source: http://www.liberal.ca/story_12805_e.aspx
In addition, the energy efficiency of oil production improved by 45% during the terms of the Chrétien & Martin Liberal governments. The Liberals succeeded at improving energy efficiency of the oil/gas industry, cars, etc.; and were vigorously working on the second step, reducing absolute emissions, when the Martin government was brought down. The Conservatives cancelled billions of dollars in Liberal climate change plans. Then blamed the Liberals.
Click here for video.
By Heather on 12.16.07 4:00 pm
So Heather, what you are saying is that Alberta’s oil production increased and yet the CO2 fell. Seems that we don’t need to send Billions of tax dollars to China, and hence we don’t need to sign any piece of paper.
Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
So Heather, can we now get on with REAL enviornmental problems?
We should open diet centers, where those who exceed their weight loss goals can sell those pounds to those who continue to gain weight, so that everyone can say they lost all the weight they wanted to, no matter how much heavier they have become. You can tell your friends “I know it looks like I’ve gained fifty pounds, but thanks to the effort of several others, I’ve dropped almost a hundred”
Kerry
So Heather, what you are saying is that Alberta’s oil production increased and yet the CO2 fell. Seems that we don’t need to send Billions of tax dollars to China, and hence we don’t need to sign any piece of paper.
Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
By Catherine on 12.17.07 4:44 pm
………………………………..
Catherine .. please stop baiting the devout Liberals on this fine forum provided for us by MP Garth, with your taunts that Canada need not buy Kyoto Carbon Credits from China.
Don’t you know that the Liberals are so entrenched with the communist-capitalists in China through powercorp-CITIC, CSL, and Liberal godfather Mo Strong, that the Chinese even sent government officials to the Liberal leadership convention in Montreal..!!
The entire Liberal raison d’être is to ‘go back to power’ and then fill the Chinese coffers with Billion$$$ of Canadian taxpayer’s money buying their Kyoto Carbon Credits. Dion has stated that a Liberal government would purchase international carbon credits to help mitigate Canada’s Liberal 33% GHG excess. That means a Liberal Carbon Tax.
Dion is so deep in the pockets of Liberal business interests in China that he may even step aside so that Bob Rae can be the next Liberal leader because they are getting squeamish over Dion’s prospects in any next election. Of course Dion could expect a warm and furry landing out of politics … the Liberal way ..!!
BTW … nationally, Quebec would be a huge source of domestic carbon credits due to their massive hydro-electric projects … so the Alberta oil sands developers can send Billion$$$$ to Quebec and keep the money in Canada … neat, eh …??!!
By Harry S on 12.17.07 3:58 pm
Does the wind blow on the Prairies Harry?
Does the sun shine on the Prairies Harry?
I believe the poster said, “The money stays in Alberta to help our economy and does not go to China or anywhere else.”
Think of the good they can do with the money.
Wanna know about Electric cars Harry?
Leasa, why on earth do you believe that Kyoto does not address smog and “only GHGs”…?
http://www.sierraclub.ca/national/media/item.shtml?x=984
Please read the article (although your belief gives a pretty good indication of where the source of your beliefs lie).
What do you think the source of smog is? When Kyoto talks about “carbon dioxide”, it has always talked about “equivalents”. So any industrial pollutant that is released in the air is given an value of “carbon dioxide equivalents” so that every country can be on the same ruler and same page on their GHG emissions.
Really, Leasa, if you were truly concerned about the environment, I have no idea why you would even bother to rely on CPC hacks to understand Kyoto, when 2 years ago, Harper called it “so-called global warming”, and 1 year ago he thought it ridiculous that they were talking about “carbon dioxide which is important to life on the planet”, and now pretending to be the flag-bearer for Kyoto (while doing his best to undermine it).
Austin
BTW…I don’t think anyone has heard you retract your disparaging statement about (paraphrasing or course) Dion stating that people considered him a hero for the environmental movement…
Harper has promised the U.S. to quadruple oil and gas exploration in secret meetings in Houston. It will be interesting to see how emissions rise. 50% of oil and gas exports out of Alberta go to the U.S. He will have to blame the Liberals! I’m getting tired of that swan song!
By Elizabeth on 12.17.07 2:36 pm
Elizabeth….Would you please quote the document that said “Harper has promised the US to quadruple oil and gas exploration in secret meetings in Houston”? No quotes from the liberal website please unless there is proof of the matter. What is your swan song Elizabeth?
Betty White on 12.17.07 6:19 pm,
This may be what Elizabeth is referring to:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/01/17/oil-sands.html
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/12/04/TarSands/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeUGhSgWIy8
The Birdy [BOO!] Baird productive phase…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWe-tgqheF0
Baird snubs youth delegates … The Environment Minister cancelled his appearance at a government-sponsored event; while Stephane Dion mingled at Bali climate change conference
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/video/vs?id=RTGAM.20071211.wvbaird_climate1211&ids=RTGAM.20071211.wvbaird_climate1211
Under the proposed federal emissions trading program, tar sands developers will be eligible for up to $700 million in “carbon credits†– even as they increase their greenhouse gas emissions.
But a query on the matter to the office of federal Environment Minister John Baird was met with a ferocious response that focused on Premier Dalton McGuinty’s failure to close the coal-fired plants by 2007, as he originally promised.
“The reality is that Ontario is still waiting for the premier to make good on his broken promise to close down Ontario’s coal-fired power plants,” emailed Amanda Galbraith, a spokesperson for Baird.
“Just this year we gave Ontario over half a billion dollars ($582.6 million) for clean air and climate change initiatives. Even with that kind of support Premier McGuinty still won’t take action.
“Premier McGuinty is just like his federal cousin, Stéphane Dion. When greenhouse gases were rising year after year, Dion did nothing. Just like the premier is still doing nothing while Ontario’s air gets dirtier and dirtier.”
Put aside for a moment the substantive inconsistencies with this response.
(Yes, Ontario got $582.6 million, but as part of a national “trust fund†established by Ottawa; Alberta received $156 million from the same fund. The emissions trading credits are supposed to be over and above that. And while one can always accuse the McGuinty government of not doing enough on the climate-change front, it is demonstrably wrong to say it is doing nothing while it is pouring billions into alternative power sources – nuclear, gas, hydro, solar and wind – and conservation.)
What is truly remarkable about the response from Baird’s office is its partisan tone.
MB Wrote.
>Dear Van,
>Isn’t it obvious why Iggy said, ‘We >didn’t get it done’??? It must be >because… “Iggy is not a leader tooâ€â€¦ >right Van?
What are you going on about? For one thing I never on any occasion ever said Iggy(Ignatieff) wasn’t a leader. The fact of the matter is that the subject which Iggy’s ” we did not get it done” comment was referred to was that the Liberals didn’t get the environment done while in office and had every little about individual leadership. You would have to ask Iggy the question if he was referring to Dion’s lack of leadership on the environment file.
>And isn’t it obbvious to everyone that >“EVERYONE who holds a LIBERAL >membership IS NOT A LEADER!!!�
What the hell are you talking about. The topic was about what was or wasn’t done about the environment. You are way off topic when you talk about Liberal membership. IN fact my question was directed to Garth Turner who said He ( Dion) got it done while Ignatieff said we (Liberals) didn’t. I would think that both comments can’t be true if looked at logically. Now MB tell me what has that got to do with membership and leadership unless you are referring to the Liberal lack for leadership on the environmental file? In this case one is an adviser to Dion as well as an MP and the other is the deputy leader who was appointed by Dion and who also is an MP.
>As a matter of fact the only people >worthy of the NAME-TAG ‘leader’ are >card-carrying Conservatives… isn’t that >right Van?
Are you serious? You do go on. Where in the hell did you get that impression from my question to Garth? The only thing relating to “leader” is my reference to the Liberal leadership Convention leadership debate where Ignatieff made the comment.
>Or is it just Stephen Harper who gets >to use the slogan ‘ME LEADER’?
Not at all. Personally I could care less who calls themselves a leader. The fact is, that just because a individual says he is a leader doesn’t make it so.
I must admit that the Liberal absenteeism and abstention during critical votes during the current session indicates a definate lack of leadership Official Opposition Party. Especially when Dion himself our job as the Official Opposition is to oppose the government. Sorry being absent and abstaining is not opposing anything except perhaps their own party principals.
>Please advise.
Just did. Your comments appear to be coming from left field unless you objective was to try to deflect my question to Garth by changing the subject.Btw my original question remains unanswered. Do you know the answer?
“I know it looks like I’ve gained fifty pounds, but thanks to the effort of several others, I’ve dropped almost a hundredâ€
Kerry
By Kerry on 12.17.07 5:01 pm
It will become a matter of “the mass of the ass EXCEEDING THE ANGLE OF THE DANGLE!”
A warning from Dalton McGuinty–Premier of Ontario calls on all MPs to seek fairness from Bill C-22
http://www.corrieretandem.com/viewstory.php?storyid=7925
Followed by the silence of the Ontario CPC LAMBY-KINS!
1.Albrecht, Harold Kitchener—Conestoga Neo-Con
2.Allison, Dean Niagara West—Glanbrook Neo-Con
3.Baird, John Ottawa West—Nepean Neo-Con
4.Brown, Gord Leeds—Grenville Neo-Con
5.Brown, Patrick Barrie Neo-Con
6.Carrie, Colin Oshawa Neo-Con
7.Chong, Michael Wellington—Halton Hills Neo-Con
8.Clement, Tony Parry Sound—Muskoka Neo-Con
9.Comuzzi, Joe Thunder Bay—Superior North Neo-Con
10.Davidson, Patricia Sarnia—Lambton Neo-Con
11.Del Mastro, Dean Peterborough Neo-Con
12.Devolin, Barry Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock Neo-Con
13.Dykstra, Rick St. Catharines Neo-Con
14.Finley, Diane Haldimand—Norfolk Neo-Con
15.Flaherty, Jim Whitby—Oshawa Neo-Con
16.Galipeau, Royal Ottawa—Orléans Neo-Con
17.Gallant, Cheryl Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke Neo-Con
18.Goodyear, Gary Cambridge Neo-Con
19.Guergis, Helena Simcoe—Grey Neo-Con
20.Khan, Wajid Mississauga—Streetsville Neo-Con
21.Kramp, Daryl Prince Edward—Hastings Neo-Con
22.Lauzon, Guy Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry Neo-Con
23.Lemieux, Pierre Glengarry—Prescott—Russell Neo-Con
24.MacKenzie, Dave Oxford Neo-Con
25.Miller, Larry Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound Neo-Con
26.Nicholson, Rob Niagara Falls Neo-Con
27.Norlock, Rick Northumberland—Quinte West Neo-Con
28.O’Connor, Gordon Carleton—Mississippi Mills Neo-Con
29.Oda, Bev Durham Neo-Con
30.Poilievre, Pierre Nepean—Carleton Neo-Con
31.Preston, Joe Elgin—Middlesex—London Neo-Con
32.Reid, Scott Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington Neo-Con
33.Schellenberger, Gary Perth—Wellington Neo-Con
34.Shipley, Bev Lambton—Kent—Middlesex Neo-Con
35.Stanton, Bruce Simcoe North Neo-Con
36.Sweet, David Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale Neo-Con
37.Tilson, David Dufferin—Caledon Neo-Con
38.Van Kesteren, Dave Chatham-Kent—Essex Neo-Con
39.Van Loan, Peter [CUZZ] York—Simcoe Neo-Con
40.Wallace, Mike Burlington Neo-Con
41.Watson, Jeff Essex Neo-Con
They’re all going to be FIRED!
Regime Change is COMING…finally!
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/286274#
BTW, sorry if you were offended by my little partisan poke. I wuz jus’ havin’ a little fun witch ya..
Li Li Life is hard eh?
By Greg on 12.17.07 1:35 pm
Awe, shucks, that’s okay Greggins. I knows ya really love me. (smooch) In the meantime, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’ll never be a CC fan. Tell you what, in 10 years, if we have global trials because of the greatest scandal in the world’s history the C.C. market, or if Kyoto targets are adopted and save the world, we’ll track each other down and ONE of us can say ‘told ya so’! Maybe even get in a few nah nah nah’s.
……………………………
BTW…I don’t think anyone has heard you retract your disparaging statement about (paraphrasing or course) Dion stating that people considered him a hero for the environmental movement…
By Austin So on 12.17.07 6:18 pm
Ya, I did Austin, even thanked the poster for finally answering that burning question for me.
Also, I don’t rely on CPC hacks as you call them. I rely on Leasa logic, as flawed as that may or may not be. Tell you what, in that same decade I talked to Greggins about, you can meet up with us…the two of you will either by then think me the stupidest twit that ever breathed or you’ll both be bowing to my advanced futuristic intelligence. K?
Merry Christmas! Leasa
In April 2005, then prime minister Paul Martin and his Liberal government unveiled what they called Moving Forward on Climate Change: A Plan for Honouring Our Kyoto Commitment. Under their revised plan, the Liberals pledged to spend $10 billion over seven years to help Canada cut its average greenhouse gas emissions by 270 megatonnes a year from 2008 to 2012.
However, when Prime Minister Stephen Harper and the Conservative government tabled the federal budget in May 2006, there wasn’t a single mention of the Kyoto Protocol. Finance Minister Jim Flaherty repeated his pledge to develop a $2-billion, five-year “made-in-Canada” climate change plan, but there were no details. The budget also set aside $370 million over two years for a new tax credit that would benefit commuters who buy monthly transit passes.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kyoto/
Seems like the “New Gobermint” plan was to cancel all the “Lieabel” programs that would have reduced Canada’s GG emissions and allowed us to reach and possibly exceed the Kyoto target set by Chretien/Martin/Dion. This cancellation of Project Green, Moving Forward on Climate Change, etc was absolutely necessary to give Steve, the climate change denier some credibility. IF the Liberal plans had been allowed to continue, Steve and all his cronies would have had to swallow their tongue.
So in order to make a lie come true, the plans in place to meet Kyoto had to be canceled and the lie perpetrated to all the world that “Dion was a failure on the environment.”
You see, Steve et al thinks that the voter is stupid and doesn’t know what is going on.
Emilie said:
“…to cancel all the “Lieabel†programs that would have reduced Canada’s GG emissions and allowed us to reach and possibly exceed the Kyoto target set by Chretien/Martin/Dion.”
From the link you provided from Feb of this year, you claim that emissions would have met their target.
But if you read the article, the plan would allow buying credits from other countries, that would ‘enable’ them to develop cleaner technology for their own country.
In doing so, that other country is *not* required to stop doing whatever they had been doing before, that caused emissions.
And worse, in doing so, Canada *still* could carry on with whatever emissions production they had going on.
They could feel less troubled about it…but carry on as they were. How would that work exactly?
Tell me where I am wrong, please.
At least now with the new provisions of the CPC plan, some penalties are in the works for those companies creating GHG emissions above a certain level, per industry.
Bali was all about business interests from other countries clamoring, in massive groups to get money…lots and lots of money….from us, to go back home and strike up more industry.
Did they think they would abolish those polluters already doing business…They laugh at how easy it has been to get this gift, from you.
Check out newspapers from other countries and see who is salivating at having your family’s money going to theirs.
By the way, did you see the program last night on China’s involvement in the world’s oil/gas development?
They come in with buckets of cash, build roads, and pipelines, and such from the very poor, but oil rich countries.
In the Sudan, they have moved in with big promises of helping the regions where the oil/gas is, and what happened?
They are still waiting…no health clinics as promised…no roads, schools….but never mind….China also sells the weapons of war against the Sudanese populations.
And those countries now have a stake at keeping China happy on the world stage, to keep the hope going to getting something from China for what it has taken. And to not ruffle China’s feathers when it comes to UN votes. It is pretty basic stuff….
And what is Canada expected to do?
Ship buckets of Kyoto-compensatory emission pay-offs to China to help them develop their economy.
Wool meet eyes!
Also, I don’t rely on CPC hacks as you call them. I rely on Leasa logic, as flawed as that may or may not be. Tell you what, in that same decade I talked to Greggins about, you can meet up with us…the two of you will either by then think me the stupidest twit that ever breathed or you’ll both be bowing to my advanced futuristic intelligence. K?
Logic is only as good as the premises from which it stems. You rely on CPC information, and I don’t think you can deny that at all. It is way too obvious, Leasa. Every talking point. Every factoid.
It is unfortunate that, despite being one of the more thoughtful people here, you do not have enough faith in your abilities to dig up information independently and come up with a conclusion that is entirely your own.
As far as the decade is concerned, don’t you realize that even if the sky does not fall, all these efforts to clean up the environment will be absolutely huge to the welfare of our planet and its political stability?
Austin
As far as the decade is concerned, don’t you realize that even if the sky does not fall, all these efforts to clean up the environment will be absolutely huge to the welfare of our planet and its political stability?
Austin
By Austin So on 12.18.07 4:49 pm
Good evening Austin, Actually, I hope you are right. Of course I want the best for our environment…and I mean ALL of our environment. Not much sense in worrying about the air, if we’ve allowed our fresh water to become putrid toxic cesspools. In the early morning, I do a lot of reading when the house is quiet and I can sit with my hot coffee and wake up. I read from many different news organizations, I read some of the urls provided here from both sides of the fence. I would agree with Kyoto if it’s main premises wasn’t a C.C. market…that smells fishy to me. I would further agree with Kyoto if the world’s largest polluters were on board. But, yes, you are right…perhaps some good will come of it. Not enough, but some.
Leasa
By Second Look on 12.18.07 11:57 am
If you are totally new here I will repost all the info that you are requesting.
But I know that you have been around for awhile and therefore you know that the answers to all your points have been made, time and again.
So I suggest that you quit pasting the PMO/CON talking points cause the voter is not stupid.
Emilie, did your people tell you that China has recently begun the huge rebuilding of their navy?
It was all on that same program…not the government telling us. The media gave that up.
And do you know why China says they are bulking up their military?
Why, to protect their shipping channel route, for all that oil they are bringing home, of course. Silly us.
Yup, that ought to do it- a whole navy with all that power.
So while you are pushing for Canada to send buckets of our tax monies, via carbon credits to China, question China about *our* financial input for their military.
Don’t concern yourself about not getting a straight answer. China has it figured out about business coming first.
China promises they are *all about business*.
They even promise those developing oil-laden nations, those little Darfur regions, (you know the one I mean), that China will not tell others how to conduct their affairs.
All while they sell the weapons, that are used to suppress and murder Darfur’s people.
Just business. Full stop.
They have seen the willingness of those many regions, that they now do business with, display their nervousness with any vote at the U.N.
Imagine those ‘business talks’ behind the curtains.
They already see your willingness to weaken.
It has zip to do with actually cleaning up the greenhouse effect.
Show me where I am wrong. And show me where I copied anything from any political party.
This was all on CBC. Knitting needles no longer required. Hat is done.
By Second Look on 12.19.07 10:15 am
Never argue with a fool. People might not know the difference.
By Second Look on 12.19.07 10:15 am
Hi Second, Yes, you have it nailed. I, over the last few years have been keeping my eyes and ears open, docs, news ‘bits & bits’ and I don’t like what I see going on in China. All the while Canada was giving $125 million every year in aid to China they were in turn spending billions beefing up their military. Why? Under Chretien, we have numerous ‘trade’ missions with China. We sent them nuke reactors, at the same time frame Paul Martin pulled his ship building from our own east coast and moved it to China. After Chretien left politics, he spent more time in China than Canada for a while.
I’d say the wise would stand back and take that second look, wouldn’t you?
L
For those who are sincere about debating the aspects of reducing GHG’s, I offer this additional info below.
There is more than one kind of skeptic in this climate conundrum.
I don’t see anyone as being skeptical about changes in the climate, do you?
But I do see variations in what people think can be gained from the various prescribed programs….carbon credit buying, especially.
Don’t leave that to what a few posters might speculate about, here.
Look to what others in a few countries have to say:
I have given some evidence from a CBC program on China earlier in this thread.
Take a look at India, and what Greenpeace in India has to offer. People will not need reminding that Greenpeace is hardly a conservative body.
This is what they have to say about using stats in the ‘per capita’ mode. It is quite telling:
http://www.greenpeace.org/india/press/releases/hiding-behind-the-poor-english
“According to the report, the average CO2 emissions of an individual from the highest income group of above Rs 30,000 (1494 KG) is 4.5 times that of one from the lowest income group of below Rs 3000 per month (335 Kg). 14% of the Indian population, which earns more than Rs. 8,000 / per month, contributes to 24% of the country’s CO2 emissions.”
“…According to the proposed national strategy on climate change India will not abide by any international commitment to mandatory reduction of greenhouse gas emission. India’s approach of measuring world GHG emissions is per capita emission rather than country-wise emissions which is the approach of the developed nations. Although India is the sixth largest carbon emitter in the world, it has one of the lowest per capita emission rates. Greenpeace proposes a third approach of measuring emissions by differentiating the carbon footprint of the various income classes in the country thus calling for climate change mitigation that addresses international and national climate justice.”
Move along now to Japan, and how they plan to cover their requirements….NOT by actually reducing emissions at home, but by buying the glut of cheap ones from old Soviet nations.
While you are reading how that happens, check out how Russia got away with slipping off so easily.
http://globalisation-and-the-environment.blogspot.com/2007/11/carbon-credits-japan-to-buy-from-just.html
“Today’s FT reports that Japan is looking to hoover up shed loads of carbon credits on the cheap to meet its Kyoto agreements.
…. The problem with buying carbon credits is that it does not necessarily reduce emissions by a single tonne of CO2. What then is the point exactly?
The collapse in eastern European heavy industry means they have an excess of credits to sell (and is one reason why Russia signed up in the first place despite dragging its heals for many years).
..Japan will announce as early as next week that it intends to buy carbon credits from Hungary, a move that could foreshadow a much larger purchase from Russia – and one that would provoke criticism as a means of meeting its obligations under the Kyoto protocol.
The memorandum of understanding with Hungary could lead to similar deals with Poland and the Czech Republic, officials from Japan’s trade ministry said, and would test the waters for a contract with Russia.
….. eastern European countries, including Russia, lost much of their industry following the collapse of the Soviet Union, so their emissions today are much lower than in 1990. This means they have large numbers of -carbon credits, known as “assigned amount units” or AAUs, for sale.
Japan is interested in Hungarian and Russian credits because they are much cheaper than the alternative, which do result in emissions cuts……
Toshihiro Mitsuhashi, director of the trade ministry’s office for the promotion of the Kyoto mechanism, said Japan was reluctant to pay what he said were the “crazy prices” being fetched by CERs….
“There’s some criticism that buying AAUs somehow doesn’t help the earth,” said Mr Mitsuhashi. “We have promised to meet our Kyoto obligation but we will use any means necessary. These AAUs exist. There’s no reason we can’t use them.”
Mr Mitsuhashi said that, to forestall criticism, Japan would insist that countries selling carbon credits set aside the proceeds for green projects. But he acknowledged that any deal with Russia would invite suspicion that the money would not be spent on the environment, but instead “go into the pocket of [Russian] bureaucrats”…..
Mark Partington, a consultant to EEA Fund Management, a carbon asset manager, said threatening to buy from Hungary and Russia was Japan’s way of signalling it was not prepared to “comply at any price”.
Japan is reluctant to spend vast amounts to comply with Kyoto as the US has never ratified the treaty and India and China have no obligation to cut emissions. Mr Mitsuhashi said Japan had to think about its own taxpayers as well as the environment.”
It could only be considered foolish to *not* think about its own taxpayers, as well as the environment.