In coming weeks I will be launching a new non-political project which has a great deal to do with real estate. I chose this topic of housing, as I have several times in recent months on this blog, because it goes so close to the basic fabric of Canadian life. The choices we have all made about where we live, and how we selected our houses, how we afford them and what their effect on us will be, will have profound impact on everyone – even those with no real estate.
This is one of the lessons recently learned in the US. Over-inflation of real estate led to a bubble which has burst with gargantuan implications. The American housing fiasco had nothing much to do with subprime mortgages, but rather everything to do with bad policy decisions which led to cheap interest rates, under-regulation of the financial sector and a vastly unhealthy descent into debt.
So, if you think American homeowners are suffering because rogue bankers gave mortgages to trailer park residents so they could buy McMansions, which are now foreclosed on, think again. They did what we are doing. They paid so much for houses that prices increased beyond the ability of average people to afford them. Then, as it always does, the market corrected. In case you had not noticed, all booms end the same way. Badly.
Real estate is then a metaphor for much more. Bad public administrators taking short-term actions for political reasons. Pliant and sycophantic media parroting questionable information. Asset inflation and bubble psychology. Public mania and greed masking bad personal decisions. Lack of governmental oversight. And, worst of all, a myopia that’s led people to buy illiquid objects when we all know there are two or three crises blowing in for the years ahead.
Now, don’t mistake me. I love real estate and have several properties of my own. But, they’re not conventional. They reflect the conviction that too many people have bought homes that are dangerous – dangers I’m assiduously avoiding. The purpose of the project to come is to explain this, and offer a course of corrective action.
More to come. But let me end with this snippet of what I mean.
Conventional wisdom, which is in this case is quite wise, is that anyone who needs more than a third of their total pre-tax income to carry a home, has bought too much house, paid too much, or assumed too much debt. Today, with mortgage rates at an historically reasonable level – roughly 7% for a five-year fixed rate term – we have an affordability crisis which you are not hearing about.
To afford the average two-storey house now takes 52% of the median pre-tax income of families in Toronto, 46% of income in Calgary and 75% of total income in Vancouver. This means that in those three major cities, and dozens of communities surrounding them, the average family can’t afford the average home. Or, if they are buying, they’re assuming a level of debt which is lethal. Should the economy slide, interest rates increase, jobs move or the market decline, they will be in serious trouble. This will be exacerbated by the fact real estate – unlike stocks or mutual funds – cannot be sold with a single phone call. As millions of desperate American homeowners will tell you these days, selling can take a year or more and endless price reductions.
So what, you say? Who cares if people are buying what they can’t actually afford, with debt and unaffordable prices masked by 40-year amortizations?
Well, look south. Housing deflation has stripped away billions in equity, decimated consumer spending and hobbled the American economy. Combined with mortgage defaults, it’s creamed banks. The recessionary result has freaked out financial markets and now threatens global growth. It’s already costing jobs here – autoworkers and forestry folks will attest – especially now that our dollar’s at par.
This is why real estate matters.
And yet the young couples buy big, costly new homes in the wrong locations, with little down, at the top of the price cycle, with leviathan debt, while their parents retain most of their wealth in houses that may not find buyers.
This will not end well.
181 comments ↓
This is why real estate matters.
And yet the young couples buy big, costly new homes in the wrong locations, with little down, at the top of the price cycle, with leviathan debt, while their parents retain most of their wealth in houses that may not find buyers.
This will not end well.
posted by Garth Turner on 01.26.08 @ 2:11 pm
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Garth … would you comment on the demographics of home owners, particularly in Toronto, where according to Statscan data, 52% of those living in Toronto did not live in Canada 12 years ago?
Many of these new immigrants flooded into major urban centres and bought homes immediately. Many immigrant groups have created their own majority communities within cities like Toronto. The common denominator is that most of them own homes that are mortgaged to the hilt.
Surely the waves of new immigrants has been a major factor in the upward surge in house prices in Toronto and burbs. Your use of ‘young couples’ as the cause of unrealistic house prices and buying decisions may not be accurate nor realistic.
Please comment on the huge recent surge of immigrants into large urban centres and their demand for housing driving up the prices. Thanks.
‘Many of these new immigrants flooded into major urban centres and bought homes immediately.’ Provide any evidence to support this statement on home-buying. Regardless, the fact remains house prices have outpaced incomes. The result is obvious. — Garth
Hi Garth.
Did you see the Japanese parliament debate the 9/11 cover-up?
I am ready to watch a similar debate in Canada. We gave you enough information in Edmonton and Calgary for you to ask some important questions on the murder of 24 Canadians. Not investigated to date.
And yet people are lining up for days to pay for a condo that has not started building. What are they seeing that I am missing?
Edmonton has a new recently announced “affordable housing” program that also deals with the hard to house low income sector (perpetual welfare, mental illness, addictions, etc.)
I don’t know all of the details but it took the communities, private sector, municipal and provincial governments all working together. I am convinced that solutions to these kinds of local problems should be local in nature since every city is unique.
Ottawa can’t and should not be meddling in one size fits all programs for housing aside from broad based funding to the provinces for them to then custom solutions for their own populations.
The situation you have in your city are quite different from the ones here. We have one of the largest off reserve aboriginal populations in the country.Our immigrants and ethno populations are mopre dispersed . So, congrats on thinking locally rather than coming up with federal programs that don’t reflect the reality of the regions.
Looking forward to your entries.
Garth when you say that the cost of carrying a house should not be more than 1/3 of pre-tax income, are you talking about Principal, Interest and Taxes, or are you including heat, hydro, etc.?
This includes mortgage payment, property taxes and operating costs (utilities). — Garth
Brings back memories – this is what happened in the 80’s under the Mulroney government.
People lining up to purchase over priced condos and houses, then the market dropped….houses became worth less than when they purchased.
Garth:
This is indeed a good plan, it is not too late to help out our hard working class raise their families. Living within ones means is the best advice that can be given. Keeping up with Jones by becoming mortage poor can only lead to disaster of the family. Many do not undersatnd the full consequences of mortgage interest. Less is indeed more when the working couple lives within their means. I more people return to banking with knowledge rather than buying on speculation all Canadians will be better off.
Please comment on the huge recent surge of immigrants into large urban centres and their demand for housing driving up the prices. Thanks.
‘Many of these new immigrants flooded into major urban centres and bought homes immediately.’ Provide any evidence to support this statement on home-buying. Regardless, the fact remains house prices have outpaced incomes. The result is obvious. — Garth
By Harry S on 01.26.08 2:29 pm
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But Garth, surely you cannot deny that the recent waves of immigrants into urban centres such as Toronto have affected not only house prices, but also the displacement of previous residents who sold their houses to immigrants.
Where did these previous residents go and what did they do for housing? They surely didn’t just vanish !!
I am asking you to specifically address the impact of new immigration on Canadian housing in your “new non-political project” .. rather than contemptuously point the finger at the American housing situation.
When 52% of GTA housing is in new immigrant hands, surely that has a huge impact on housing availability and pricing. Housing will outpace income, when the supply of housing is either too low, or the price of housing has been bid up too high. Is that what has happened in the GTA ??
I am asking you to address your comments to what is obvious in the GTA, so please don’t obfuscate politically.
It’s irrelevant where new homebuyers come from. When prices outpace incomes, markets inevitably correct. — Garth
does this refer to a twenty five year mortage or to the the new longer term ones
Twenty-five year amortization, 25% down. The actual numbers are far worse, since the average downpayment in Canada is now only 15%. — Garth
I agree….debt can easily become the devil.
So why are we letting Teachers’ pension fund along with three US partners buy Canada’s largest and most widely held telecommunications company (BCE) with virtually all debt and turn it into a junk bond issuer.
The debt that is being borrowed to buy BCE isn’t a future obligation of the new buyers, but rather BCE itself.
These bandits are buying $36 billion of equity with $8 billion in cash and getting the company to borrow the other $28 billion themselves on top of the $10 billion they already owe.
Garth: How will this lower my phone bill of make BCE more compatitive? The Liberals should speak up on this issue as it will soon be before the CRTC (Feb 25, 2008 Public Hearings)
PS: This deal will cost Ottawa $793 million in less tax collections PER YEAR!
Garth, I do not think any level headed Canadian is going to disagree with you concerning the fact that housing prices are grossly over inflated. The question is as I understand it, how do we allow or survive the correction that is coming, well causing the least amount of damage to the consumers.
I have read, only sources I can found are in the States that the over inflation of housing prices is in the range of 20-40% depending on which area of that country, since the two economies tend to imitate, I would assume our numbers are roughly the same. Could you possibly address these numbers as to what you think is accurate and any ideas for a gentle correction to include the banks and govt’s role in the correction.
When we bought our first home in the 1970s the financial institutions made it clear that they would not finance any home that would take more than 1/3 of our income (or a total value of not more than three times our annual income) and we had to have, I believe, a 5 or 10 per cent down payment.
Developers at the time tended to build homes that an average worker could afford and high end houses were the exception.
What happened to change that? I know that sometime within the next seven years (1976-1984)that changed because a co-worker was able to get a mortgage that took more than 50 per cent of his income.
I remember when mortgage rates were in the double digits up to 24% and people were losing their homes. That was during the terrible years of the massive world wide recession in the 80’s and also when Trudeau enacted the National Energy Program which bancrupted thousands of Alberta businesses. Premier Lougheed at that time had a program to reduce mortgage payment interest rates to 12% I think it was at that time. NOW we complain at 5, 6 or 7% mortgage interest rates. Times and solutions really do change.
Oops…bad HTML. Here is the corrected link
Tories meet behind closed doors amid possible Afghan prisoner scandal
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.26.08 2:27 pm
Stephen Harper, a flip-flopper?
Tories meet behind closed doors amid possible Afghan prisoner scandal
January 26, 2008
THE CANADIAN PRESS
OTTAWA
Facing a possible scandal over the handling of Afghan prisoners, federal Conservatives are meeting behind closed-doors in Ottawa to plot strategy for the resumption of Parliament.
The opposition charges the government covered up news that Canadian troops have stopped transferring Taliban prisoners to Afghan authorities for almost three months.
The Liberals, NDP and Bloc Quebecois say the Tories were embarrassed after discovering that a prisoner had been tortured, the way critics had been warning.
A senior aide to Prime Minister Stephen Harper at first claimed the military hadn’t told the government, but then backed away from those comments.
Industry Minister Jim Prentice defended the prime minister’s embattled communications director, saying Sandra Buckler corrected her statements promptly and responsibly.
Longtime MP Art Hangar wouldn’t indicate whether he thinks Buckler should be fired, saying he has no control over the situation.
Asked if he’ll raise concern about the flip-flops with the prime minister, Hangar said he has a bunch of issues to raise, but the communications problems are not among them.
http://news.therecord.com/News/BreakingNews/article/300732
1980-1984 Trudeau
morgage rates 14.75% up to 19%
Thats when people lost there homes
1980-1984 Trudeau
morgage rates 14.75% up to 19%
Thats when people lost there homes
By nrth on 01.26.08 4:14 pm
I believe the mortgages went as high as 22%. However with the Alberta Treasury Branches our mortgages with them didn’t go higher that 14% at the time.
Harry: Why do you use the word “displaced” when referring to people who may have sold their homes to immigrants? Displace usually means the involuntary movement of someone or something from its usually place.
Are you suggesting that home sellers were co-erced into selling? That they had no free will?
And my experience in Toronto tells me that new immigrants are not buying they are renting and saving their money like everyone else so they can eventually buy a home.
Stop trying to blame immigration for your inability to purchase a home you can afford.
Garth when you say that the cost of carrying a house should not be more than 1/3 of pre-tax income, are you talking about Principal, Interest and Taxes, or are you including heat, hydro, etc.?
This includes mortgage payment, property taxes and operating costs (utilities). — Garth
By Lana on 01.26.08 2:54 pm
Before my sis & bought a place together we took a free evening course on all of the implications of purchasing a property. Back then 25% of your after tax income was considered the max. My DH moved in with us for 1 year before we married. (No job, didn’t speak English so I paid his way.) My sis & I married the same day & she and her hubby bought down the street, as a temporary measure – her DH thought he’d make a $100K commission on the sale of a mainframe computer. It fell thru and within a yr the company closed its office here. He got his notice one day and she hers the next. He got a job with another co. and after a 3 week training course in TO he had a major heart attack. Lukily for him & her, he had disability ins. from day 1 and has been on it since last year. Twenty-one years later they are still there & only paid off a small mtg 2 yrs ago and still paying condo fees. We sold and bought this place 2/3 years after we married for about $118K in Jan. 91. with at least 25% down. We were preapproved for much more, but said if either of us lost our job, we could manage a mtg and live comfortably. My DH did end up losing his job and we knew we had made the right decision. I convinced him to go back to school, which he did. I don’t mean to go on and on, but at the time we were selling/buying we needed a 3 month guaranteed interest rate. Our bank would only give us 2 mos. so we switched to one who would. Since then, we have negotiated with banks for the best deal, even before the ’sperts’ said it was possible. We also have never paid a cent in bank fees, other than an annual safety deposit fee. We’ve a signed card by the Bank Manager that we never will pay bak charges (in the SDB). We paid off our mtg. in 7 years, partly because we sacrificed, we used software at the time, & had a little help from my my mom & DH’s parents. We could have lived a high life but didn’t. My sis did. I’ve 5 siblings and only 2 of us have been wise financially.
I didn’t mean this to be long, but I recall a neighbour a few years ago whose son & DIL bought a beautiful house a 1/2km from here – a lovely, maybe 25 yr old home, but after a yr they sold and moved up 2 streets from us into a new swanky, expensive big, home. Our neighbour said at the time that it was just an interim move – they would sell in a couple of years and go onto bigger and better. That was their philosophy for getting rich. They’re still there after several years and still borrowing his Dad’s lawnmower each week. His parents, retired, babysat for 2 yrs. Our street was extended 2 yrs ago – big homes – 1 is already up for sale, last 1 at $500K has yet to be completed. And this is Dartmouth, NS and all you see are more & more expensive developments going up. We just wonder, who the heck can afford these homes on the kind of salaries that are offered here. Unless, of course, they are going into tremendous debt. !!
If anyone wants a good laugh, read this adver… er article on why its a good idea to buy no money down, for 40 years, with a cash-back option to cover your closing costs.
http://www.househunting.ca/buying-homes/story.html?id=6b72e1f5-d832-4f50-b898-2e3eafe96ef5&p=1
It’s too bad this nonsense is inflating housing prices for people who aren’t financially retarded.
A report in today’s Okanagan Saturday from CP which concerns the economy, plus snippets from a CA / investment adviser.
Part of CP’s story is as follows:
“Those lines drew chuckles from the party faithful. But they also flew in the face of historical fact.
“The previous Liberal government cut taxes by $100 billion, eliminated the deficit, presided over years of uninterrupted economic growth, and tabled more tax cuts in a 2005 budget the Tories later reversed.”
When Catherine and I debated yesterday, I should have included one of the reasons that Hitler wanted war — the German economy was in a total shambles, and he needed something else for the citizens to focus on.
Sound familiar to what is happening at present in the US? Prior to WWII, does anyone recall seeing photos of German citizens pushing wheelbarrows loaded with Deutschemarks? Then it cost roughly two to three thousand DM for a loaf of bread.
The Liberals didn’t do that bad of a job during the 13 years they were in power. Partisan politics should be put aside, tone down the rhetoric and learn to work together to make this a solid country again. It’s become a little dysfunctional lately.
The CA’s column has a good headline — “Money mistakes”. In it, the CA describes a Consumer Reports article: “12 Money Mistakes That Could Cost You $1M”, the key word being “Could”.
Hidden inflation (food and energy costs have already started climbing), deflation and stagflation rear their ugly heads again, but anyone can live well within their means.
For us old codgers sliding toward 60 and beyond, one of the worst things is “to be conservative”, change mutual funds into GICs, fixed-term investments, etc., because this “is what everyone else does”. Screw “everyone else — I’ve never met them, nor will.
Inflation, especially hidden inflation is guaranteed to eat away faster than monthly withdrawals, leaving one well short when investments are needed most.
One of the best investments one can make is value investments, then reinvest the dividends and/or shares straight back in. Cuts down on tax payable.
OT – PBS is having another never ending fund raising campaign today. Normally my Sat. afternoons are watching all the cooking shows – cause I basically love cooking and gardening. We watched for the umteenth time Roy Orbisons’ Black & white concert in stereo and now watching/hearing all the songs of the 50/60’s. My DH recalls even those of the 60’s – they grew up with them in France – and we were dancing. An old girlfriend, her bro and their mo. (my other Mother (who emigrated from Germany after WWI) made 5 cd’s of all the old music from 50/60’s for me. I’m listening to so many now, burnt butter for my bechamel sauce, but I don’t care. It takes my mind off from my health problems and the political situation. We all need a break. If you get PBS from Boston or Detroit, its a great evening of music. The 3 tenors were on earlier.
I don’t know how much the developers in the GTA explosion have to pay for each field they are paving. Can anyone add to my knowledge?
Land development has always been a path to riches in this country – is it still as good now as it was for Colonel Tom Talbot?
By KH on 01.26.08 3:18 pm
By Lana on 01.26.08 2:54 pm
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/business/story.html?id=39465d16-a69f-4cc2-8797-1ce759871cf1
I found this link last night snooping around the media. Its likely where Garth picked up these numbers as well. Note the information provided includes a 25 year fixed rate morgage with 25% down. Morgages with less down on prinicple exasterbates the question of affordability.
“Provincially (in BC), the average two-storey house, priced at $542,012, required almost 71 per cent of the median pre-tax income to pay all its costs, up from 68 per cent in the second quarter. The RBC index assumes a 25-per-cent downpayment and 25-year amortization.
Atlantic Canada and Manitoba had the most affordable housing on the RBC index. Examples of the relative affordability of a detached two-storey house and proportion of the median pre-tax income required to maintain are:
- Atlantic Canada: $207,222, 34 per cent.
- Manitoba: $220,549, 35 per cent.
- Toronto: $481,315, 52 per cent.
- Calgary: $476,711, 45.7 per cent.”
Couple this with what Merril Lynch had to say about real estate needing to devalue a further 34% nationally including 50% in New York, California and Florida, the U.S. housing markets will face some serious personal equity shrinkage and other issues, namely currency and federal deficits, and that means things don’t look good for North America overall including Canada.
Who’s to blame? Everyone. Consumers, house buyers, realtors, financial institutions, governments, federal bankers, home builders, the works. Everyone it seems, thought of themselves. And could government have stepped in and regulated? Sure! In hindsight, they should have. A Liberal Paul Martin minority government staring at the face of an election, a New Con minority government with cut revenue increased spending strategies coupled with the philosophy of letting corporations regulate themsleves and the encouragement of foreign M & A’s and IT fiasco’s for self interested reasons…
Its likely that the fear is that the tendacy will be to over-regulate with the change in government to come, but the reality is that regulations are needed and were needed some time ago if it doesn’t come from the private sector itself and thats the thing with corporate Canada and corporate america… it never does until its far too late.
We have portable morgages for a reason. We have fixed rates for a reason. Banks learned some harsh lessons in the 80’s due to to their own foolishness of lending to borrowers who couldn’t afford to pay the loans.
People might think were not in a bubble and high times will go on forever, but… the reality of it is that it comes down to common sense. Sooner or later, common sense prevails in all market valuations. It comes down to affordability, folks. Realtors forgot their place with the old slogan, “the customer comes first”. They just wanted their cut and the bigger the transaction, the bigger the cut. Banks forgot their place and now their old slogan “the shareholders come first” will suffer along with the customers that should have been number one, people like you and I. Bond companies, insurers, hedge funds, commerical paper, Sub primers…
What were we thinking to sell or buy old homes and shacks in some cases that were going for more than brand new ones? Where was our common sense? We went the way of the lemming following other lemmings off a cliff believing we’d grow feathers in mid air.
The sad truth is that we are going to have a major devaluation of real estate on our hands and thats pretty much unavoidable, especially where there real estate has inflated the most, in BC, Alta and Ontario, the three largest provincial economies and it really can’t be prevented. Realtors and financial institutions might be celebrating $100 billion worth of real estate transactions last year in Canada when the sad truth is, its likely going to lead to $50 billion in bad debt. Drink champaigne now… hangover later. How many years worth of erased equity will we have on our hands… the sweet spot is likely 33% of pretax affordability as Garth suggests with 25 year fixed rates and 25% down.
Couple this with higher inflation in morgages(7%), energy and groceries, even with inflation dropping (mainly from veichles and luxury items with the rise of the loonie) when affordability shrinks due to higher morgage, heating and groceries, the things people have to spend on, affordability will disappear with higher unemployment as commodity valuations soften, devalued personal equity from peoples homes and higher costs of living.
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/01/25/inflation.html
While inflation has dropped, the cost of living has gone up and only the rich will be laughing with a higher dollar. (I can imagine Flarehty bragging up a drop in inflation as a reason that all is well, in fact, I think he did!)
As M & A’s continue to send our corps south, as the loonie continues to cripple manufacturing and foresty, and the drop in commodities within a year becomes prevalent as the U.S. recession and currency crisis slows consumption causing a wake up call to all of its number one sellers including Canada, people will wonder why they ever believed this government and economical sooth sayers predicted high flying times for 2008 a couple short months ago, even including today.
No one wants to upset the apple cart of consumer confidence, but… we’ll remember stories like this one as propaganda looking back, pure and simple.
http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080123.wcrea0123/BNStory/robNews/?cid=al_gam_nletter_maropen
Garth is right. Rough times ahead.
I find it amazing that you Liberals re-write history without even blinking an eye. Shame on you!
By Catherine on 01.26.08 4:52 am
In case you were unaware Catherine, I have said here before on a number of occasions that I have voted Green for over two decades now, the single reason being that I grew tired of all the LIES that PMs and various MPs said and then denied.
This should help clear things up — if not, I cannot help you any further.
I am asking you to address your comments to what is obvious in the GTA, so please don’t obfuscate politically.
It’s irrelevant where new homebuyers come from. When prices outpace incomes, markets inevitably correct. — Garth
By Harry S on 01.26.08 3:03 pm
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Oh come off it Garth … you are a political animal and will soon attempt to link housing .. to Harper .. to Bush .. to R.E. crash .. to US policies .. to Bush .. to Harper ….. it’s soooo blatantly transparent.
The real reason that Canadian housing prices in large urban areas like the GTA are dropping is because the Conservative government has stemmed rampant immigration that has inflated the house market .. and now it’s dropping for lack of buyers.
Soon the price of housing will again be within reach of that ‘young couple’ you are bleating about .. but the other ‘young couple’ who bought into the inflated market will take the hit.
As for the 52% of Canadians who sold their property to the 52% immigrants flooding the GTA … they have fled to the exurbs like Kitchener-Waterloo, Barrie, Peterborough … leaving the GTA filled with multiculti ghettos.
Welcome to Trudeau’s Liberal Canada … and an immigrant-driven housing market in the large urban centres.
Has anyone called you an idiot yet today? — Garth
A good read on stagflation, but see the three quotes at the top, as this represents govt’s. throughout the world now.
http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/3302/81/
Re: comments by lmf on 01.26.08 3:54 pm,
You are correct and those of us who bought under the old rules, although we found times very tough, were able to survive the massive increase in interest rates and keep our home where people that had bought under the new rules lost theirs.
If I am correct, what happened is the government decision of opening financial institutions to “free market” theory which freed control over credit. With financial institutions able to advance almost unlimited credit the immediate impact was inflation and high interest rates to control inflation.
This is why the federal and other governments ended up running up such massive debt without a corresponding increase in other expenditures. Most of the increasing debt during the Mulroney administration was the result of interest rates.
Eventually a recession resulted in a decline in demand and interest rates fell. The impact was a huge transfer of wealth from both government and consumers to financial institutions.
These financial institutions never changed their behaviour but government made spending cuts and many consumers lost their homes and went bankrupt.
When the financial institutions got in trouble with bad debt in South American the Mulroney government bailed them out by giving them even more freedom to expand credit.
I believe this expansion in credit is responsible for driving housing prices above what the median income earner can afford. Incomes are stagnating and it is easy credit that is fueling demand not good economics.
This whole example illustrates what is wrong when “greed is good” becomes the operating principle of “free market” economic theory.
By Charles Oxley on 01.26.08 6:38 pm
So Charles, do you support your Green delegates FLYING to Brazil in May for the Greenies conference? If so, how do you square use of the fuel used for the planes to get the Greenies to Brazil?
Do you agree the suppression of democracy in Nova Scotia by your Leader Lizzy May and Stephane Dion?
Do you agree that seniors should pay higher fuel/energy costs, as they cannot afford the upgrades to their homes?
Do you agree that there should be a substantial green sales tax on homes over 1500 square feet?
The American housing fiasco had nothing much to do with subprime mortgages, but rather everything to do with bad policy decisions which led to cheap interest rates, under-regulation of the financial sector and a vastly unhealthy descent into debt.
Conventional wisdom, which is in this case is quite wise, is that anyone who needs more than a third of their total pre-tax income to carry a home, has bought too much house, paid too much, or assumed too much debt. Today, with mortgage rates at an historically reasonable level – roughly 7% for a five-year fixed rate term – we have an affordability crisis which you are not hearing about.
This will not end well.
posted by Garth Turner on 01.26.08 @ 2:11 pm
Garth,
These are the key points that stuck out to me in reading your excellent topic.
Now, back in the late 1970’s the banks looked at your take home pay and figured that 25% was usuable for housing. The mortgage interest rates varied from 6.5 to 8.5% in the U.S. The cost of a new Condo was about $20,000 in Chicgao’s suburbs. A full fledge house was about $80 to 90K., more in Chicgao proper.
I bought a wonderful home in the country in Minnesota for $55,900 in 1977, and sold it for $73,100 in 1981 after actually putting in a lot of sweat equity in cleaning things up. The property was very nice to begin with, but I did a lot of landscaping of the 3.75 wooded acreage.
I built a beautiful real stone Heat-O-Lator fireplace into the living room which cut our fuel oil bill from a ridiculous $400 per month to $50 a month. Our heating bill for hardwood firewood from the sawmill was $25 per 3/4 ton van load, about a full cord, and we could comfortably get by with two loads per month during the worst of winter. Winters there drop to -35 to -45 F and are more brutal than here. Our mortgage was $385 USD and that included principle, interest, taxes, and insurance. The morgage was fixed rate for 25 or 30 years (I can;t remember now).
Then the BUST of 1980-82 hit and everything went to Hell. I managed to salvage our principle, and bought a home in the nearby city for the same amount I paid for the bigger 4 bdrm, 2 car garage, split level in the country. The next house was the Town Founder’s home built in 1867 and was quite a hoot. Nothing was standard size, as farm families added on as children came, and they built using what was available. There were no Home Depots in those days. The entire place was built of white and red oak taken from the property, and the studs were true 2 inches by 4 inches. The old place will stand another 300 years I think. LOL
Then after business DIED, and I mean DIED in the Rustbelt thanks to the U.S. Federal Reserve jerking interests rates as high as 24%, I moved to the Sun Belt where homes were still reasonably priced.
Alas, as the years went by those in California who had played the home equity game found themselves unable to ‘move up’, and unable to pay their mortages. This began in the late 1980’s. There was a literal exodus from California to Arizona. Housing prices in Phoenix went from $60K to $120K, and kept climbing. Ijn the U.S. the IRS demands that one either buy a more expensive home or pay Capital Gains tax on the difference. People,always ‘moved up’ to keep the goobernment out of their wallets.
Now, those same Californians who tried to escape their own greed based problems, have recreated the same where they moved to. They are the real basis of the Eagles song ‘Hotel California’ You can check in anytime you like, but you can never check out!
Canada is now finding itself victim to the same east and west coast philosophy. We Boomers are looking at this and asking ‘Where are we going to retire to?’ We do not need the HUGE McMansions, and will not buy them. We need reasonable housing like Sandy Cove Acres near Innisfil, On. Pre-fabed homes are still $60K to 80K there. The catch is that the property is owned buy Sandy Cove acres. Their monthly fees have climbed from $250 to $650 per month extra to the mortgage, insurance, and utlities that are not included. That includes common property maintenance, water and sewer, and use of the three recreational centres, but not Hydro, phone, or cable and internet.
The management has played the game that they have ‘first offer’ on all properties that come up for sale. Otherwise, they are locked into the old maintenance rates.
All things said, if the government wants to see some REALLY PISSED OFF citizens, mess with we Boomers. We have busted our arse for a lifetime, have been screwed, tattooed, and abised like dogs while those who want things for free have had their hands in our wallets. We gladly supported helping others. We have built two great nations here and in the U.S.
What have we gotten? Jim Flaherty and his IT ‘UP YOURS!’
Then compare this situation to what an aboriginal reserve has done? Their home and native land: The Westbank First Nation is turning the image of the reserve on its head
The developers need to be brought under strict control. Municipal governments need to be told they will allow projects other than the big home subdivisions. The pricing of homes MUST come down.
Likewise, the real estate agents have profited at 7% per sale for way too long. They have been a major cause of inflation, as have too many municipalities, as well as the provicial tax people (Obviously the moratorium on real estate taxes came about because of gross abuse and disparities)
Perhaps we need to apply the old Levitical Law of Debt Forgiveness every 50 years? God DOES KNOW the banks have made billions year after year. Time for them to cough up their fair share for the good of people.
I wasn’t here in 1929, but this “stimulus package” didn’t go over very well.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/great-fiscal-stimulus-package-/story.aspx?guid={D3B850E5-E05D-40DA-A630-42B3CB838AE9}
Great idea Garth, Spread the word far and wide. I hope at some point you can include the fixed income of the disabled, which include our soldiers, as well as two women seniors I happen to know, who are actually wanting to buy their first home together after lifetimes of renting. Now here I am talking about people in my nabe who have gotten out of debt, living very simply, as income forces them to. They are not the type of people who would ever buy a home they couldn’t afford in the first place. The rough times ahead conjecture means nothing to them, they already live that day to day, but still have the dream. They wonder about things such as should they stop banking with RBC for instance and go to a credit union. Will they get house mortgage insurance and so on. I really hope you address this so I can share it with my neighbourhood, soldiers/seniors, everyone.
dubya’s “coalition of the willing” falls even further apart. The only terrorists are at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iLG6pnN_CSSuA7WKLrViHAJpY2Zg
Trouble is, so many jobs have been outsourced, trades are evolving to needing less workers along with a proliferation of minimum wage jobs; plus, the US has a slight debt problem.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/25/AR2008012502779.html
3 in 10 spend too much on shelter: Stats Can
CBC News — January 25, 2008
Finding affordable housing was a problem for about three in 10 Canadians between 2002 and 2004, according to a study by the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and Statistics Canada.
The study, released Friday, said that during the three-year period 28 per cent of Canadians reported spending at some point more than 30 per cent of their household income on shelter. Thirty per cent is commonly held as the upper limit benchmark in shelter cost-to-income ratio.
“While a stable 20 per cent of Canadians live in households spending above the affordability benchmark for shelter in any single year, when measured over a three-year period, 28 per cent reported living in a household ever exceeding the benchmark-12 per cent for one year, seven per cent for two years and nine per cent for all three years,” the study said.
People in Vancouver were identified as the most likely in the country to exceed the affordability standard, with 44 per cent of residents reporting doing so at least once during the three-year time frame.
The report also found that lower-income families were most likely to exceed the affordability benchmark, owing to low-paying jobs, unemployment, and family breakups, the federal agencies said. Renters, people who live on their own, single mothers and recent immigrants were also identified as spending more on housing.
People undergoing major life transitions — such as becoming a homeowner, getting married or divorced — also reported surpassing the affordable income-shelter ratio, the study said.
http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2008/01/25/affordable-housing.html
……………………………………………………………………………………….
With new immigrants representing 52% of the GTA population and a huge Asian influx into Vancouver, increased housing demand by these demographic groups must have had a big impact on driving up house prices.
By John Duddy. on 01.26.08 2:34 pm
I watched the Japanese Diet listen (without interruption!) to all the evidence the one minister presented and I was very impressed. Very straight to the point, clear and concise.
Actually I was amazed. I had no idea that they were investigating it at all.
Garth, you really should take at look at these clips. There are 8 of them but none are very long and subtitles are good. Especially when he starts demands answers to his questions from the ruling party. He is the opposition.
WTC7 always bothered me. It went down too nicely. And the hole in the pentagon was too round and where did the wings go? And I’m not a conspiracy theorist. It’s just that BushCo lie like breathing. Like Steve does.
OK, back to housing.
Geo
Has anyone called you an idiot yet today? — Garth
By Harry S on 01.26.08 6:48 pm
…………………………………
Go for it, Garth … but first read this before you again stick your pied into your bouche :
http://www.toronto.ca/demographics/pdf/profile02.pdf
Study your subject before you announce you are going to start a “new project”, because living out there in Halton and Ottawa may cloud your judgement.
This is funny.From the Globe.
Conservatives send designated MPs to defend Buckler
ALEXANDER PANETTA
The Canadian Press
January 26, 2008 at 6:23 PM EST
OTTAWA — A Conservative MP said it’s up to the Prime Minister to decide whether to fire his chief spokeswoman for making false statements about Canada’s mission in Afghanistan.
The government sent out two designated speakers Saturday — one English, one French — to defend Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s communications director Sandra Buckler.
Other Conservatives grumbled privately that her misleading remarks are the latest example of how a potential good-news story about the Afghan mission has been plunged into the bowels of public-relations hell
The appearance of secrecy was only fuelled by the sight of dozens of Conservative MPs escaping through back corridors to avoid answering questions as they emerged from a caucus meeting.
Mr. Van Loan and Mr. Paradis were sent before the news cameras.
But their colleague Sylvie Boucher probably summed up the sentiments of many as she beat a hasty path from one meeting room to the next.
“I want to avoid running into journalists,” she said.
When informed she was speaking to one, the Quebec City MP replied: “It’s not that I don’t like you. I just have nothing to say.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080126.whcaucus0126/BNStory/National/home
So there you have it Garth … StatsCan has already done the project .. and they didn’t have to point the finger at the American housing market and trying to link it to the Canadians situation.
This CBC article reveals how badly you are off the mark on real estate in Canada, and confirms to me that you are only trying to politicize the situation for your own desperate ends as a Liberal in trouble.
Nice try Garth … but you lose again .. LOL
Sandra Buckler is a liar. What else has she and the PMO lied about?
http://jasoncherniak.blogspot.com/
By Georgine on 01.26.08 9:30 pm
The reporter from Auntie Beeb (BBC), said with a straight and serious look that WTC7 had just collapsed, except . . . . . it was still standing; didn’t come down for several seconds.
Then again, all heads of state, such as dubya and harper, can be trusted, no?
Would you believe the average home in the USA lost a full 1.8% in value last year…how terrible. Of course, Florida, Nevada, Arizona and some other jurisdidtions lost considerably more and 1.4 million forclosures are possible this year. The average price of a house in Detroit is $49,223…but nobody is rushing out to buy. On the other hand it is not uncommom for two or more immigrant famililies to occupy a $600,000 house in Toronto. There are two parties involved in every sale with a willing seller and a willing buyer…its called the market. Sometimes the market gets out of whack and corrects…last one in generally gets hurt. Its been ever thus.
Garth, get yourself a hammer and volunteer at Houses For Humanity…who knows, you might set a trend.
US average prixes, according to the National Association of Realtors, declined almost 7% last year, the first year-over-year reduction since the Depression. New housing starts were off by 23%, and the price drop in certain markets (California, Florida) touched 30%. Merrill Lynch is forecasting a further 25% plunge in values in 2008-9. Canadians should heed this. — Garth
“This will not end well.” –posted by Garth Turner
I still believe that we need to be optimistic rather than pessimistic about the ultimate future. If we walk in wisdom, problems can be surmounted, and the ultimate future can be very bright indeed. We can overcome adversity, and end up at the top.
Things can end well, but wisdom is the principal thing that is needed. With wisdom and wise counsel comes everything else that we need in life.
Wisdom means buying wisely and eschewing unrepayable debt. — Garth
By Catherine on 01.26.08 6:55 pm
#1: I suppose they could take a Greyhound bus, although they might be a few weeks late for the conference.
How many times would the bus have to fuel up with diesel to further fog up the atmosphere? I’ll let you figure that out.
Then again, they could all walk — that is pollution free, but the conf. would have ended. About 18 months prior.
Would you like me to continue? Strange as it may seem, flying is the most sensible and practical method to go. Besides, Brazil is already destroying the rain forest, much as CRAP is destroying itself.
#2: See harper’s dictatorial and controlling methods of manipulating his MPs. It’s MY WAY or the HIGHWAY. That is my answer.
#3: Why don’t the feds work with the provinces to allevate some of the burden on seniors? I understand that harper would have to give over some control (which would annoy him greatly), but there has to be a silver lining in there somewhere.
Oh, that’s a realistic idea; harper, flaherty don’t live in a real world. They do live in a make-believe world, which does exist for them, although not too many citizens.
#4: This is a good idea, because it forces people to buy a much more reasonable, modestly-sized, second-hand home. One does not need all the bells and whistles that a new home comes with.
There. I’ve covered all your questions. Whether you like my answers is another matter, but for what it’s worth, I couldn’t care less.
You, as well as all CRAP members can have all the McMansions with huge mortgages with no chance of ever paying them off. Keep yourselves in perpetual debt, which is what dubya and harper (your heroes) have done to our countries.
If I’ve missed anything, do let me know. Unless you’re in the process of declaring bankruptcy.
By Harry S on 01.26.08 9:20 pm
Idiot.
Has anyone called you an idiot yet today? — Garth
By Harry S on 01.26.08 6:48 pm
I think this Harry S is a complete whack job. Get a life Harry, you are pathetic.
Now the good news for America today is ‘Barack Obama takes South Carolina with 55%,
HillaryBillary Clinton gets 27%, and Jon Edwards, a SC Native son, carried a massive 18%.’‘Change we can believe in!’ Hopefully Canada can say the same thing soon?
houses became worth less than when they purchased.
By slg on 01.26.08 2:55 pm
houses became worth less than when they purchased.
By slg on 01.26.08 2:55 pm
Yup they sure did. Interest rates also took a huge jump, at one time as high as 26%. It was a global recession and hard times for all.
On the other side of the coin, when interest rates levelled out around 12% and the cost of houses was still down, it was a buyer’s dream. Farms especially at that time were selling for half the normal value. A lot of real estate exchanged hands.
There is a difference when real estate is bought as an investment or when it is bought for much needed housing.
Several years ago, I hired a ‘money man’ to handle some investments, he bought mutual funds and I don’t know what else. Over a two year period I watched the principle investment do nothing but go down.
Today, I don’t invest in anything I can’t see or touch. Real estate continues to be for me the best long term investment going. You just have to have the time to ride the waves.
For a really long term investment I would say arable land is the way to go. Mark my words…we are running out. We are paving and building on good soil and we will regret it. It will some day become a hot commodity like no other. While you are waiting you can have it custom worked or rent it out.
Anyway, I’m rambling…very tired. Today I went where no woman should have to go…I cleaned the fridge. LOL
Leasa
Has anyone called you an idiot yet today? — Garth
By Harry S on 01.26.08 6:48 pm
Let me be the first and an uniformed one at that!
Ottawa can’t and should not be meddling in one size fits all programs for housing aside from broad based funding to the provinces for them to then custom solutions for their own populations.
By lmf on 01.26.08 2:45 pm
I totally agree with you 100%.
I would, however, mention that the function of Ottawa is set some broad guidelines, and to provide Federal funding to enable those working to resolve the problems locally. That does not mean establishing another Ministry, of bureaucratic lethargy, but to provide valuable information and knowledge I speak on this matter having actually worked with the homeless and mentally ill.
There are a plethora of people who are well qwualified to deal with the tasks required. the problem is usally relatee to ‘Turf Warfare’ by Ivory Tower ‘professionals’, and greedy little minded twits who want to garner power.
People are very capable of getting the job done, if they have access to the necessary resources. That is government’s job to establish funding to give them the enabllement to ‘Getting it done!’
A good example is the battle between the currently working doctors, at least one, and the retired doctors who want to bring their skills and knowledge back into play to help ease our healthcare problems. Once again we have pure Turf Protection disguiised as ‘rules’.
By Catherine on 01.26.08 6:55 pm
Whatsa matter CC. Greens have you wetting your panties? I guess it all Depends, eh?
Do you agree that seniors should pay higher fuel/energy costs, as they cannot afford the upgrades to their homes?
Do you agree that there should be a substantial green sales tax on homes over 1500 square feet?
By Catherine on 01.26.08 6:55 pm
There now CC. your are batting .500 with those two questions. Just being fair.
Two out of four is an improvement for you here.
So where did you get those ideas from CC?
The US has a slight debt problem.
By Charles Oxley on 01.26.08 7:24 pm
Is that akin to being a ‘little pregnant’?
By Georgine on 01.26.08 9:30 pm
Trust me…You are not alone on those points of inquiry!
By Harry S on 01.26.08 9:20 pm
Where would you have them live Harry?
By Charles Oxley on 01.26.08 7:24 pm
As the saying goes..’Globalism is where the rich profit from the rich of poor countries and from the poor of rich countries.’
A short article on foreclosures. The banks take a hit when someone walks, but they were advertising sub-primes and cheap loans in the first place.
The wheel always turns. What goes around comes around (and bites).
http://cbs13.com/local/foreclosures.real.estate.2.638417.html
To me the whole problem with the system of escalating housing costs is the borrowers. There was a time when if you could not afford it you simply did not get the money. If the borrowers don’t lend you the money, and no one has the cash to buy expensive housing, two things can happen. No houses will sell, or the price starts to drop on the houses in the market. If the guide lines were adhered to then, one would think that would alleviate the disproportional rise in housing every year. The money supply would be controlling the housing costs.
Welcome to Trudeau’s Liberal Canada … and an immigrant-driven housing market in the large urban centres.
Has anyone called you an idiot yet today? — Garth
I don’t think anyone has. May I? Thank you.
Harry, you’re an idiot.
There. I feel better now. Goodnight.
Its time to spread the growth out to areas such as Fort Erie, Belleville, Owen Sound, Orillia etc
Less people moving to the GTA will keep prices more reasonable
Has anyone considered that the Harper Conservatives’ raid on Income Trusts and the damage done to the elderly was planned?
What now will the elders sell to survive since their retirement funds have been wiped out?
You get a shiny North star if you guessed: their houses! Their ancestral homes. The very thing they scrimped and saved for to leave to their family or simply for posterity. Taken from their homes feet first.
What else do they have, hmmmm? It’s not like more than 5% will live long enough to fight the the Government and taxation effectively to a just conclusion…
Very crafty. Two birds with one stone, so to speak.
Now. Who is best positioned to buy them?
Just 75,000 votes per province will send the Harper Conservatives packing, and perhaps buy a more decent future for Canada’s elders than being on the street.
Action now may help to protect the ’sandwich’ generation who may also have put their savings into Income Trusts for their own retirements down the line. Or leveraged their own homes to care for ill parents, or make the tax payments on their parent’s property while the parents face difficult times, even the end time.
It is very much harder for someone who has been used to everything to become used to nothing; in this regard the poor or the economical by necessity folks bear up under difficult circumstances much better than those who have been accustomed to much.
Remember, Tory times are tough times. The people who survived Tory times can tell you from experience. Perhaps they’ll have to tell that sad and sorry tale again. Or new sad stories of loss will be born.
Hope not.
Harry S
You really have you knickers in a knot about the *influx* of of immigrants to our respective cities. Is this something you have just noticed recently? Are you implying that it is some sort of problem? The photo of West Vancouver that Garth put at the top of the post is some the most expensive real estate in Canada. You can’t see the mountains or the ocean in this pic but they are both right there. Can you tell, just by looking, how many immigrants live there?
Geo
A quick note on Condo’s not sure about Ontario, but here in Halifax 50% plus of the Condo’s are purchsed early and rented out as an investment. Garth can explain the pros and cons of that but it is safe to say in a good district it is a good investment.
I personally don’t want government legislating home prices or interest rates. The bureaucrats generally screw up these types of programs.
Now, when we got married in the seventies, we waited 5 years to purchase our first home. As we didn’t have any assistance from either side of our families, we had to save for our first down payment (including moving expenses and house type purchases). Our first home was a plain jane semi – no granite counters, no walk in closets, no garages, no “family room and living room”, no ensuite, no hardwood flooring, and no ceramic flooring. We paid 45,000$ for the new house, 5,000$ for appliances and other house type equipment (lawn mower, garden stuff, snow showels, etc.) and 5,000$ for fencing, decking, and trees, and decking. Our combined annual income was 24,000$ (15,000 and 9,000).
How did we do it?
We waited to have children until our first house was purchased; we didn’t do vacations away; we didn’t go out to eat, daily, weekly or monthly – we did go to restaurants for our 2 birthdays and our anniversary; we prepared meals from scratch (no take outs); we didn’t buy top of the line furnitures or electronics or appliances; and we didn’t buy new cars.
Even when we purchased our second, single home – we didn’t buy a bigger home with the bling blings.
Now compare this to today’s first type buyers and new home offerings. While they are saving, they are also not sacrificing to save. Honeymoons are taken in exotic locations; vacations are taken at home; eating out is the norm; must have new cars; etc. Houses are not smaller, but, bigger; must haves include granite counters, hardwood floors, top of the line furniturings, top of the line appliances, walk in closets, jacuzzi tubs, living rooms and family rooms, etc.
It sort of reminds me of the kids growing up in the 80’s and 90’s. These kids (no matter what their family income was) had to have the dockers, top of line clothing, nintendo games, and disney world trips. And now these kids want bigger and better stuff without actually realistically adjusting their life styles. Hard lessons to learn, but, for some it’s a wake up call.
And oh – we paid 10.5% interest when we first bought, and then it went to 14% (at renewal). But, we did the 6 month renewals until it got to more manageable levels (2 years later).
It appears the key is to either cause significant increaes in incomes, difficult to do or significant decreases in housing costs, hard to do and wildly unpopular. You could fiddle with the idea of making some mortgages costs tax deductible, however that’d likely put upward pressure on prices. It’ll be interesting to see Garth’s plan unfold or, at least, see what he’d do.
OT: deAdder’s cartoon – Lines of Communication. I’d say it applies to more than this.
http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=102179&sc=91
Nice to see Harry showing his true anti-immigrant colours.
For the record, Harry, more than 85% of Toronto’s population is Canadian-born. Plus the largest group of people moving to the GTA area is CANADIAN, not immigrants.
Finally, when immigrants buy houses they often buy from other immigrants, they do not force Canadian-born to sell up and flee to the rural hinterland.
“Brain” Please see http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20080126053812907
Housing price bubbles are mainly driven by immigration and speculation. If you consider areas that have had the highest rates of price growth, they have most often been fueled by strong net in-flows of migrants:
London (from eastern Europe and asia)
Vancouver (from asia)
Auckland (from asia)
Calgary (from eastern Canada)
etc.
Migrations can occurs within a country and even from rural to city centers in provinces.
BTW: it isn’t the older house sellers that are displaced, it is their children.
With regards to speculation, a lot of real estate has been bought up by baby-boomers to fund their retirements. On aggregate, they are simply transferring wealth from their children to themselves.
Jessie
Mr Turner
I am sure the real estate topic you wish to present will be educational. However, I fail to see what it has to do with government. These are personal individual choices and we should not have to be saved from ourselves.
However, it may be a good time to change the channel and get off this Liberal/Conservative bent.
It is obvious from the tidbits being dropped the past few days that we are not heading into election mode anytime soon. If this is the case I feel Mr Dion should publicly state that we will not have an election until the fixed date so we can all get on with our lives and wait for it. After this statement is made we would like the politicians to work on what is best for CANADA.
It’s a new day, so I’ll get it in first: Harry S, you’re an unconscionable idiot. I hope you are only making like one in the line of Death Star duty.
Well, Garth, you certainly have defined the malignancy, and Brain, Innes, Muskoka, Oxley and others have added details. Knowing that the economy and great swaths of society are, or will be, very sick is a start, but how do we stop overvalued real estate from turning into a progressive, incurable and terminal economic and societal disease?
Homeowners are holding the bill for a lot of money they have inserted into the economy. The whole real estate industry – land owners, developers, builders, suppliers, shareholders, trades, governments, advertisers, brokers, agents, lawyers, lenders, previous owners – have siphoned off their share of transactions and added to the bill to be paid by homeowners in real money. It’s the great game of “Pass the bill”: enjoy the meal/benefit, and pass the bill to someone else.
Homeowners buy homes to follow the “My home, my castle” dream, and to escape the trap of terminal renting. A great selling feature for real estate has been that the costs of ownership were not much higher than the cost of renting, that with a bit of sacrifice in other areas, you could sink your costs into a home rather than just sinking them, that your costs would build capital over time rather than doing so for landlords. Do such considerations deserve the blame that is about to descend on the victims?
So, with the inevitable downturn, ”correction” and deflation, a lot of people with a lot of money in the pot are going to be sitting there with a busted flush. What is the answer? Remember, they are expected to pay the bill for real money inserted into the economy with more real money continuing to go into mortgages and housing costs. “Screw them” may be an answer for some players in the economy, but not for the whole housing sector, which in turn has a lot of wages, taxes, profits and dividends riding on homeowners continuing to “pay the bill.”
Is there anything governments or corporate sector can do, Garth, or do those of us who may not be affected just blame the victims and congratulate ourselves? And hope we don’t get sucked into the downward spiral?
Hey Garth, I noticed in your article you fail to mention the housing situation in St.John’s, Halifax, Fredericton, and Charlottetown…. Will this “non-partisan political group” be national in focus, or will it only focus on those areas west of Atlantic Canada?
As of right now, the town of Paradise (it’s just a 15-20 minute drive outside of Mount Pearl, part of Conservative NL MP Loyola Hearn’s district) has been called “the fastest growing municipality in Atlantic Canada”.
It’d be great if you could try to compile some stats. from Statistics Canada concerning the sustainability of mortgage spending, rates,etc… in that community. Why I may ask? Because Paradise is arguably Newfoundland and Labrador’s first official suburb. (That’s because areas like Renews, and others on the Avalon Peninsula are really subrural.)
What doe subrural mean you wonder? It means they’re areas where the majority of local jobs are in traditional sectors such as forestry, mining, the fishery, agriculture,etc… However, the majority of people have to commute to larger urban centres (such as St.John’s, Mount Pearl, Corner Brook,etc…) in order to find work of a more modern nature!
Indeed, I wonder how the town of Paradise (technically a suburb) will handle the impending housing crisis!
As my husband I and get closer to thinking about retirement (although both of us will…because we need to, probably work until we are 70, if we can stay in good health), I worry about how we will pay our mortgage payments on a reduced income. We have too much house, (3 bedroom back-split…over 30 years old), but my son-in-law, who is a mortgage broker, advises us to stay put.
Anyway, if we wanted to sell, we would have to do some major work on the house…which we can’t afford right now. TV commercials tempt people our age to look into a “reverse mortgage”. Who is behind this idea? Who would benefit?
It is hard to know who to listen to, or what the future holds. It’s a bit scary.
Taxation without misrepresentation:
http://caiti-online.blogspot.com/2008/01/taxation-without-misrepresentation.html
Garth What if we passed legislation that required financial institutions to sell any property they forclose on at the price they origionaly agread to a mortgage? I would suggest that this would flatten the real estate market by eliminating the highs and subsequent lows because we would have to go back to the 1960’s when people had to save their down payment before buying a house.
Welcome to Trudeau’s Liberal Canada … and an immigrant-driven housing market in the large urban centres.
Has anyone called you an idiot yet today? — Garth
By Harry S on 01.26.08 6:48 pm
Well if no one will step up to the plate, Harry S. You are an Idiot.
Ok, that task is taken care of, next.
Where would you have them live Harry?
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.26.08 11:41 pm
Judging from his all too numerous posts on the subject, I expect in a shared accommodation somewhere about 3 ft. below ground level as per the wishes of his kin.
Let the world be aware says Airry, if its wrong, dem immie grants are at the root of it. Yup, we wuz jus’ talkin’ bout that over at the “Co-kashun Slave” the other day. Iff’n ya doan believe me, why just read r lit rature. I tell ya, they’s hav’n an impact, sure enough! Y, I’s bin impacted fer years!
You know you are a Redneck when;
your dinner was freshly squashed this morning, and you’ve decided to let it age for a while before you send the wife to fetch it.
you no longer drink wine ever since the screw cap got caught up your nose.
You are obviously exaggerating the situation for political gain. Fearmongering is the Liberal’s main weapon nowadays, all because you Liberals are in such dire straits.
Take one hypothetical isolated problem and attempt to spook everybody else, hoping they will vote for you because you were the first to define a non-existent problem.
You Garth, are a shrewd and scared politician, and you are trying to blow the housing real estate situation out of proportion, thus breeding discontent in the population.
Nice try, but you abjectly fail again .. just like your IT scare which fell flat on it’s face, or should I say ‘your’ face. People who own ITs have recovered most of their loss and are now quite happy. Besides the initial drop was insignificant with your so-called and exaggerated $20 Billion over 2 million Canadians .. which equals to a paper loss of $10,000 on average. Your gloom and doom approach to the IT situation probable scared people into cashing out and suffering the loss prematurely.
Most smart investors held on and are now whole, on the advice of their investment counsellor. Good thing few Canadians listened to your bad financial advice.
By Michael/Garth 10:24PM
I meant Habitat for Humanity and the average 1.8% reduction in year over year US house prices came from Kudlow and Company.
Kudlow and Company(7:00PM nightly MSNBC) is an interesting watch as one gets to see great economists/investment types of much learning and a wealth of experiences tackle the economy from the bull/bear angles with opinions/views dripping sagacity and insight.(one whole hour) That people with great learning and experience can have such diverging views/opinions is a testament to the complexities of today’s economic milieu. Having said that, markets are efficient and generally respond to the supply demand scenario to the benefit of the whole economy.
Harper/Flaherety are amateurs in economic matters and, as the Peter principle states; “PEOPLE RISE TO THE LEVEL OF THEIR INCOMPETENCE” and Harper/Flaherety give ample proof of that principle. Harper/Flaherety/Reformer/Cons find it necessary to treat people like mushrooms; that is, keep them in the dark and feed them horseshit…not the way to run a government in my opinion.
It sort of reminds me of the kids growing up in the 80’s and 90’s. These kids (no matter what their family income was) had to have the dockers, top of line clothing, nintendo games, and disney world trips. And now these kids want bigger and better stuff without actually realistically adjusting their life styles. Hard lessons to learn, but, for some it’s a wake up call.
And oh – we paid 10.5% interest when we first bought, and then it went to 14% (at renewal). But, we did the 6 month renewals until it got to more manageable levels (2 years later).
By Catherine on 01.27.08 6:49 am
I seldom agree with you Catherine, but in this case I do. I believe that many kids today have no idea of the value of a $. I realize there is a lot of peer pressure on teenagers today to have those Nike shoes, Columbia jackets, etc., yet most are unwilling to work for them. And, I’m not talking about getting a McDo job after school, etc., tho that wouldn’t be a bad idea. They won’t even mow a lawn or shovel a driveway for less than $20. an hour under the table. I’ve seen it on our street. The parents are out early in the am shovelling to get the cars out so they could take the kids to school. On garbage day, the kids will walk by the empty cans leaving the parents to put them back. Forget about their mowing the lawn. I blame most of this on the parents and wonder how these children will ever make their way in the world. They’ll be in for a shock.
BTW, we did not get money from our parents for a downpayment on our 1st or 2nd house purchase. We inherited a small amount (as did each child) from my Mom who, by the way, lived with my DH & I for 4 years. Due to inheritance taxes in France, especially if you live elsewhere, my PIL prefer to give money to each of their 3 children & spouses rather than waiting until they die. My MIL did not want to repeat what her parents did to her (an only child), who struggled to bring up her children, only to be left with a small fortune upon the death of her mother. I remember the first time I met my DH’s grandmother. She complained about all the taxes she had to pay. We did not know her worth but my DH said to her that at least she was fortunate to have enough money to warrant those taxes.
Also, we had a v. flexible mtg. We could double up monthly payments & put down 10% of the original mtg. on the anniversary date each year. We did. Some would say we should have invested that extra money instead. But, we liked the security of not having a mtg.
A quick note on Condo’s not sure about Ontario, but here in Halifax 50% plus of the Condo’s are purchsed early and rented out as an investment. Garth can explain the pros and cons of that but it is safe to say in a good district it is a good investment.
By David Bakody on 01.27.08 5:59 am
Thanks David. Its something we should definitely look into, especially if the housing market starts to slide here.
This is somewhat off topic…but I found an incredible passage from General Douglas MacArthur, perhaps the greatest US general in history that I thought was worth sharing on Garth’s blog.
After accepting the surrender of the Japanese on the battleship USS Missouri, MacArthur went to the microphone and delivered the following radio address to the world.
With the current debate raging over Canada’s role in Afganistan I thought that these words from MacArthur are instructive, and worthy of thought and reflection. War of any kind is not to be taken lightly.
“Today the guns are silent. A great tragedy has ended. A great victory has been won….
As I look back upon the long, tortuous trail from those grim days of Bataan and Corregidor, when an entire world lived in fear, when democracy was on the defensive everywhere, when modern civilization trembled in the balance, I thank a merciful God that he has given us the faith, the courage and the power from which to mold victory. We have known the bitterness of defeat and the exultation of triumph, and from both we have learned there can be no turning back. We must go forward to preserve in peace what we won in war.
A new era is upon us. Even the lesson of victory itself brings with it profound concern, both for our future security and the survival of civilization. The destructiveness of the war potential, through progressive advances in scientific discovery, has in fact now reached a point which revises the traditional concepts of war.
Men since the beginning of time have sought peace…. Military alliances, balances of power, leagues of nations, all in turn failed, leaving the only path to be by way of the crucible of war. We have had our last chance. If we do not now devise some greater and more equitable system, Armageddon will be at our door. The problem basically is theological and involves a spiritual recrudescence and improvement of human character that will synchronize with our almost matchless advances in science, art, literature and all material and cultural development of the past two thousand years. It must be of the spirit if we are to save the flesh.”
Thomas Stirr
http://www.tomstirr.com
Countrywide lawsuit names Canadian banks
New York investors add TD, Bank of Nova Scotia and RBC to the list of class-action defendants
Jan 26, 2008 04:30 AM
http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/297605
Less people moving to the GTA will keep prices more reasonable
By Liberals Suck on 01.27.08 2:20 am
Wow, you have a real green plan there LS. Just what we need is more urban sprawl, more long commutes, more traffic jamming up each other’s arse on the 400 series highways.
While the reality is that is exactly what has been happening. Just look at Barrie…130,000 now. Orillia will be next. The Muskoka is seeing it begin as well with Big Box stores and Smart Centres building (which we welcome), but new manufacturing jobs, and well paying jobs, outside of construction, are hard to find. Bottomline …NO REAL JOBS!
There is a vast nothing between Barrie and Parry Sound. That will soon fall to development as well. Honey Harbour has already started. Unfortunately, with development goes the established ecosystems, forests, farmlands, and wetlands.
Again the problem is commuting to work. Approximately 30,000 people commute from Barrie to the GTA each day. GO transit has finally resumed rail service, but that has only reduced the traffic by about 400 people a day.
The GTA could be wonderful if it had any leadership. They had Mel Lastman, ‘Mr. Nobooooody!’, who didn’t even know who WHO is. It was like an Abbot and Costello ‘Who’s on first’ episode, and now Miller, and a city council that is more like the Keystone Kops. Their streets are in horrid condition, and the city is filthy in the most public places like the theater district, which is the only reason we ever go downtown to Toronto. Crime is up, and gangs roam at will. All the product of a dysfunctional society with too large of gap between the haves and have nots. Failure to plan and fund infrastructure is not just a GTA problem. We have the same here.
Politicians like to build and fund BIG impressive projects. They do not like to say ‘My greatest accomplishment was to make sure are out of sight infrastructure like sewers and water mains, bridges and roads, will be there in good shape for our future.’
We se our MP funding ‘feel good projects’ like community hockeyt rinks. That while our healthcare is being reduced to shambles because of top heavy administrators taking the lion’s share of salaries. Poepple here have to travel, at their own expense thanks to McSquinty, to Regional healthcare Centres like Peterborough, New Market, Sudbry, or the GTA. they will be opening a new Cancer care Centre at Royal Victoria Hospoital in Barrie, but cardiac care is Peterbourough, New Market, or Toronto.
The only cure are smaller, more realistic dwellings, less spread, better mass transportation, and a REAL plan that takes the best and keeps it viable as they have for centuries in Europe. Truly planned communities.
What we need is a Barack Obama who will bring ‘Change we can live with!’; who brings a future, not more of the past. Such vision is not heard in Canada. No, we get clowns like Donald Trump building ego monuments to himself as the focus of our future. The MSM present nohing but fluff news, and trying to see any true plan or progress is not a simple matter for people.
We get obscene ‘artsy’ structures like the new ROM. What a total waste of money on an archittect’s egomania. We get things like the National Art Gallery in Ottawa, a beautiful building used to house ‘art’ like a pile of carpet scarps, a length of dirty hauser lying on the floor taking up valuable space that could be used for real art.
We have too many drug induced artiists who have no clue what art is. My five year old grandson makes better art using finger paints than these high priced clowns. His artwrok, at least correllates with his mental and skill level. Costs to the taxpayer? Peanut Butter and jelly sandwiches and few supplies.
We need to save that which is functional, and get rid of that which is not both in ideology and structures. The Distillery District is an example of what can be done with real vision. The TTC is not, although it certainly could be. There are many models to follow right here in North America.
Vancouver has the Sky Train which is fully automated and qwuite nice to ride. Edmonton has the LRT which is also very well done, as is their Skywalk system in the downtown that saves people from having to go outside in the cold and weather. Chicago and NYC have excellent rail transportation. Chicago is excellent, albeit falling into disrepair.
We can build all the required equiment right here in Ontario and Quebec. we also need affordable rural rail and aircraft service. We need satellite airports with fixed and rotary wing aircraft that bring people to and from major hub airports like Pearson. We here in the Muskoka travel as well to. It is a long drive to Pearson, or we can take the Shuttle for $40 per person one way. the time is the problem 2.5 hours to Pearson to arrive 3 hours before an interantional flight, and then the return trip. That adds up to 11 hours to just get to and from the airport.
We should be able to board a train, travel to Union Station, board a Rapid Rail Shuttle to Pearson, and that will expand buiness in the rural regions.
Where are the Ed Mirvishes? Where are the leaders with vision? Any of them ever hear of phased management? First, get the infrastrucutre in shape, then assist in needed growth. That’s the ticket.
Things are already happening in some of our hyper housing markets – according to my banker-in-law in Clagary who thinks the sun shines out of Mr Harper’s fundamental orofice, the housing market is now flat there. I won’t disagree – I lived in Alberta during their last bubble in the 80s, and once again there are abandoned half built condos, with just a security guard to keep people from stealing the plumbing fixtures.
Today I went where no woman should have to go…I cleaned the fridge. LOL
Leasa
By Leasa on 01.26.08 11:02 pm
OH MY GAWD! Leasa, are you okay? No WMD’s in there I hope? ROFLMAO! My wife and I have an ongoing contest regarding the fridge. She stuffs stuff in the back, I put on my HazMat suits and clean it out monthly.
Yesterday I found a Alien Onion growing in a plastic bag. A slice of red onion that had decided it would mobilize itself by growing appendages. Pretty scarey to encounter. I think I will take a pic of it and send it to Garth to post. LOL
Heck, I may have thrown out a cure for something now and then. Some containers look like Biological Weapons waiting to attack when they are opened. Please don’t tell Bush or he might invade the Muskoka. Thanks. LOL
Oh my! Harry is this you?
The NRA’s Environmental plan
By Catherine on 01.26.08 6:55 pm
#1: I suppose they could take a Greyhound bus, although they might be a few weeks late for the conference.
How many times would the bus have to fuel up with diesel to further fog up the atmosphere? I’ll let you figure that out.
Then again, they could all walk — that is pollution free, but the conf. would have ended. About 18 months prior.
Would you like me to continue? Strange as it may seem, flying is the most sensible and practical method to go. Besides, Brazil is already destroying the rain forest, much as CRAP is destroying itself.
By Charles Oxley on 01.26.08 10:45 pm
Charles – you do know about video conferencing, eh?
What a wonderful example it would set, if the Greenies cancelled their 3 day party with a real solution to our environmental pollution. But, I guess photo ops and partying are their main priority!
Seems my solution beats your solution. Cheers.
By Catherine on 01.26.08 6:55 pm
Whatsa matter CC. Greens have you wetting your panties? I guess it all Depends, eh?
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.26.08 11:25 pm
Billy, you are very sick, sick man(?).
So where did you get those ideas from CC?
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.26.08 11:32 pm
Billy, I don’t wait for government to tell me when and what I should do to be respectful of the environment. Because, it should come for each and every individual. But, I guess, you born again Kyotoites, are all mouth and not action. BTW, I have seen your kind before.
Where does U.S. imported oil come from?
Who would have guessed?
Great moments in Canadian Immigration
Canada’s REAL Power Corp!
The Bush, Manley, Harper Plan
So where did you get those ideas from CC?
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.26.08 11:32 pm
Courtesy of all centrist-minded Greens and Libs., such as ourselves!
No thannks are required, as someone has to run this country!
——————————————————————-
Is that akin to being a ‘little pregnant’?
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.26.08 11:35 pm
More like a ‘pregnant pause’ before someone pulls a card from the base of a ‘card house’; then everything comes tumbling down!
Harry S – the fact is all Canadians had immigrant roots other than our natives.
Harry S. – Garth is right, you are an idiot and a bigot and a great example of the CPC mindset. It’s a wonder Harper doesn’t stop you from putting in responses because you sure make Conservatives look really bad.
Housing – everyone’s in a hurry to have everything now. I remember when my parents bought their homes there was a fixed interest rate (I believe 5 or6%) for the whole immortization. As time went on their mortgage payments went down. As the monthly mortgage payment went down (to the point, as my mother said was like cheap rent) they made their improvements, bought new furnature, etc. And, when the house was to the point of cheap rent so to speak they moved to a little bit bigger and nicer house and then to their 3rd house.
It’s partially the greed of the banks want to increase and increase interest rates so that young couples can’t get out from under.
Whoops – forgot to mention that the 3rd house my parents bought – they paid for it fully in cash because of value of their prior house increasing.
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.27.08 12:33 pm
HA HA HA, yes, cleaning the fridge is one of the yuckiest jobs known to mankind. Mind you, since we have an open door policy for our son’s friends, I can have anywhere from 3 – 5 or 6 16 year olds here for the weekends, unless some other blessed parent opens the door. The fridge might as well have a revolving door, slam, bang, throw it in, grab it out.
BTW…thanks for the web site advice. I will learn the HTML as soon as I clear a few other tasks from my desk!
*****************************
On the immigration thing: My husband is an immigrant who just got his CND citizenship last year. The man worked his butt off, never received unemployment or disability and he created many jobs. What I’d like to see though is more immigrants going to other areas like small towns, why always the big cities where the cost of living is so high? Housing is cheaper and there are jobs in rural Canada.
Well, got to run again! Have a nice Sunday afternoon.
Well now, just received a call asking for money a donation to the CPC, how strange, in any rate I asked why and was told by some dude named Jack that PMSH is putting down a budget that the opposition will not accept… so much for his fixed elecction date. If he is so committed why even bother with all this crap!
BTW, I have seen your kind before.
By Catherine on 01.27.08 12:48 pm
Oh really CC? and what kind would that be in your book of CRAP wisdom?
As to waiting on government to tell me. No, I listen when they have something new I did not know. The point of Kyoto was for establishing a means to drag kicking and screaming those whose minds are closed to environmental responsibility, those who’s beliefs are they have no need to change.
Do I think Kyoto is the final solution? Absolutely not, and neither did those who signed on to it. It was a First Step, Phase I of a long overdue program on the international level to protect ourselves from ourselves.
I have said that before, and will, continue to say it. Do I believe in Carbon Taxes? NO! I think they are, again, a possible step towards instilling compliance. I also believe they are merely another means for arseholes to bilk money from the people, but the people, while being a major part of the problem by their chosen lifestyles, are also caught in a trap made by government’s ballessness, and manufacturer’s refusal to be accountable.
If I wrote the law it would be strick, and with short time limits to compliance. Failure to reduce emission, and I mean the major emitters, would entail criminal prosecution and prison time, with forefiture of all their personal and corporate assets. it would be adminsitered under a sepearate agency, immune for political interfenence. One such as the CNSC. That is how laws are supposed to be administered. Equally, and without political escape clauses. It is called democratic process. any thing else is called criminal collaboration. (Psst! Send an IOM to Gary Lunn for me will you?)
Canada signed Kyoto, and that is a matter of honour and reputation. People who go back on their promises lose their reputation as straight players on the world stage. They also foresake the right to be a part of the process which was agreed upon as an interim means of getting this mess under control.
So, tell me CC, just what type am I?
It sort of reminds me of the kids growing up in the 80’s and 90’s. These kids (no matter what their family income was) had to have the dockers, top of line clothing, nintendo games, and disney world trips. And now these kids want bigger and better stuff without actually realistically adjusting their life styles. Hard lessons to learn, but, for some it’s a wake up call.
By Catherine on 01.27.08 6:49 am
Hey now Catherine, that’s my generation that you’re talking about. I grew up in the 80’s in some quite affluent areas (Nepean and Oakville) and can assure you that there were very few spoiled kids those days.
We were all chomping at the bit to join the work force at 14 years old. I worked at the local dog kennel…guess what my job was!
We shovelled driveways in the winter and mowed lawns in the summer. We had paper routes and part time jobs.
In the summer we would go down to the golf course and wade through the creek and pick out all the golf balls. We’d sell them to the golfers @ 50 cents a ball or $2 for five.
By Greg on 01.27.08 10:54 am
ROFLMAO!
By Harry S on 01.27.08 11:01 am
Yeah, Harry, a mere $35 BILLION stolen from Canadians, and on a broken promise from Steve, is nothing compared to the $150 Million of AdScam.
As always (in your mind) you ‘R Right’ Harry.
By William Laidlaw on 01.27.08 12:29 pm
The ‘Cottage Country’ housing market has grown pretty stagnant as well.
I can tell just by reviewing the real estate ads week to week. Same listings still there, and those are lower priced units as well as the multi-million dollar ‘estates’ on the Lakes. The turn over used to be measured in a few days.
Billy, you are very sick, sick man(?).
By Catherine on 01.27.08 12:46 pm
Maybe CC, but my underwear is dry! LOL
We refinanced our mortgage two years ago, and included the consolidation of some debt (Visa and car payment). Our home was valued at $225,000, and our new morgage is for $169,000.
Our interest rate for 5 years is 4.55%, and the mortgage is amortized over 20 years. Our monthly payments are around $1400.00/month (PIT).
Based on Garth’s figures, we should be “rolling in dough”, but we aren’t. Sometimes we struggle to make ends meet.
Based on a lot of advice on this blog, I think it is time my husband and I tighten our belts, and get on a budget!
If interest rates are high in 3 years’ time, when we need to renegotiate, we could be in trouble. My husband will be 65 then.
How does this stack up with others on here?
It’s partially the greed of the banks want to increase and increase interest rates so that young couples can’t get out from under.
By slg on 01.27.08 1:19 pm
Sitting here listening to the Eagles ‘Life in The Fast Lane!’, and their new CD ‘Long Road Out of Eden’ Great lyrics like
Music blasting from an SUV on a bright and sunny day
Rolling down the interstate in the ‘Good Old USA’
Having lunch at the Petroleum Club, Smokin’ fine cigars, and swappin’ lies
….
Freeways flickering, cell phones chiming a tune
We’re riding to Utopia
Road map says we’ll be arriving soon
Captains of the Old Order clinging to the reins
Assuring us these aches inside are only growing pains
But it’s a long road out of Eden
What are we doing here?
Back home I was so certain, the path was very clear
But now I have to wonder
What are we doing here?
…
Weaving down the American highway
Through the litter and the wreckage and the culture junk
Bloated with entitlement; loaded on propaganda and now were driving dazed and drunk
Been down the road to damascus, the road to mandalay
Met the ghost of Caesar on the Appian Way
He said ‘It’s hard to stop this bingeing once you get a taste
But the road to Empire is a bloody, stupid waste
Behold the Bitten Apple
the power of the tools
But all the knowledge in the world is of no use to fools
And it’s a long road out of Eden!
Or, as another track says ‘We are ‘all to busy being fabulous!’
Resist reading, reacting or responding to rhetoric from a racist, red-necked, rabble-rousing reprobate. There is a reason for re-posting the same rambling rants repeatedly. (You know who you “R”).
Thomas Stirr
http://www.tomstirr.com
By Thomas Stirr on 01.27.08 11:58 am
BTW Thomas – great to see you here on Garth’s site. I have enjoyed reading your posts.
Feds collect student loans from dead students
The federal government is collecting thousands of dollars from student loans even after the borrower has died, new figures show.
Advocates of student loan reform say Ottawa should end the practice, which often results in collection agencies seeking to recoup the funds from grieving parents and family members.
Wow, Conswervative values? Family values?
Monte Solberg, minister of Human Resources and Social Development Canada, has said the governing Conservatives intend to unveil changes to the Canada Student Loan Program in the spring budget.
Another Blackmail solution to a real problem. Yes, Canada’s ‘New’ Government is looking out for you Canadians. Just give them a majority and you will see what they really can do to you.
Everything is Quid pro qou…Just give them more power and they will do the right thing, if Steve doesn’t change his mind?
Meanwhile, back at the ranch:
Harper failing to lead Afghan mission: Ignatieff
Ignatieff said that the public and Parliament have not received “honest answers” from the government and that Harper has to grab the mission “by the throat and pull it together.”
“Afghanistan is the most important thing Canada has done in 50 years, and he’s not leading,” he said. “The prime minister has to act like a prime minister, and not like a partisan leader on this issue of Afghanistan.”
The sky is falling the sky is falling,… COME ON GARTH, give us an ELECTION to give us some hope and take our minds off our other woes like the economy!
By Harry S –Standing up for Conservative values.
People who own ITs have recovered most of their loss and are now quite happy.
Most smart investors held on and are now whole, on the advice of their investment counsellor. Good thing few Canadians listened to your bad financial advice.
–I,m amazed that any person with a brain would ever have the gall to print outright lies like this. The income trusts are now below what they were worth at the lowest point from the Halloween Massacre. Harper and Flaherty and paid political hacks like Harry S rely on public ignorance to con voters. Facts always catch up to liars. There,s nothing more despicable then a chronic liar. In time, when the facts are known the liar loses all credibility. Once this trust is broken you,re tainted for a life time. It becomes a sad life!
I find it amusing when I see tactics used by Consevative Governments North and South of the border.
Bush—-Barack Obama,s early education was linked to radical Islamic schooling. Obama is a Muslim. Barack Obama is a Muslim and some sort of alien threat to America?
Harper– suggests the Liberals support the Taliban more than Canadian soldiers.
RE: Bill Muskoka
We also need more expressways to make the hinterland closer to the city
For example the 427 extension to Barrie and a new highway from Barrie to Waterloo Region (to give it better access to the US border in order to attract industry)
As the sprawl spreads out so can the jobs
As the jobs spread out this can create more stable commute times.
Also when traffic increases on the roads, we can expand transit.
I am against cramming everyone into a downtown setting. Development needs to be market driven
Today I went where no woman should have to go…I cleaned the fridge. LOL
Leasa
By Leasa on 01.26.08 11:02 pm
OH MY GAWD! Leasa, are you okay? No WMD’s in there I hope? ROFLMAO! My wife and I have an ongoing contest regarding the fridge. She stuffs stuff in the back, I put on my HazMat suits and clean it out monthly.
Yesterday I found a Alien Onion growing in a plastic bag. A slice of red onion that had decided it would mobilize itself by growing appendages. Pretty scarey to encounter. I think I will take a pic of it and send it to Garth to post. LOL
Heck, I may have thrown out a cure for something now and then. Some containers look like Biological Weapons waiting to attack when they are opened. Please don’t tell Bush or he might invade the Muskoka. Thanks. LOL
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.27.08 12:33 pm
Bill – the onion just goes to mush, as does many other things that ’somehow’ gets hidden in the veggie drawers or somehow manage to hide themselves in the back of the fridge only to discovere they have taken on a life of their own. LOL
The worst tho, is the toilet in our little ‘ensuite’ which my DH uses, BUT I have the ‘privilege’ of cleaning. My DH can do just about anything, but he never got around to taking Cleaning 101.
By Andrew McDonnell on 01.27.08 2:13 pm
Well Andrew, I am afraid that you were probably in the minority, as my children were. Many of their friends were not interested in these after school jobs. Their parents coughed up the money for their expensive bling blings. Take a look around now. Why do teens need their cell phones stuck to their ears (in shopping centres and on buses) and all you get hear “Oh no”, “yeah”, and “like this” and “like that”. Do you think that these teens will grow up respecting the true costs of living?
South has a crush on Obama
Mr. Obama offered a fresh jab at Clinton’s attack on his statement that Republicans had been “the party of ideas” in recent years, saying it was evidence of what was wrong with Washington.
“It’s the kind of partisanship where you’re not even allowed to say that a Republican had an idea — even if it’s one you never agreed with,” Mr. Obama said. “That kind of politics is bad for our party, it’s bad for our country, and this is our chance to end it once and for all.”
I think the Great White North could learn to have a similar ‘Crush’ of admiration.
Obama expresses one of the core principles’ of the Green Party. ‘a good idea is a good idea, regardless of where it comes from!’
Oh, that we could see that happen in Parliament? That is why we have parties,a nd individual’s sitting as MP’s not a dictator contrlled bunch of Zombies! Hey, wait a minute We do have a dictator controlled bunch Zombies sitting as our goobernment. How did that happen Oh Canada?
Posterior Prosperity: Look on the bright side of foreclosure…
‘Intentional Foreclosure’
Stuck in a high mortgage?
House across the street, same as yours but more upgrades, selling at a lot less at foreclosure prices?
Buy it and give back yours.
Hmmmmm, and then yours goes on sale at even a lesser price and you can buy it back again.
and then, do it again…ad infinitim
Bottom line, same as it ever was – “in the end, we all end up paying the price”
flipping forward 
Hey now Catherine, that’s my generation that you’re talking about. I grew up in the 80’s in some quite affluent areas (Nepean and Oakville) and can assure you that there were very few spoiled kids those days.
We were all chomping at the bit to join the work force at 14 years old. I worked at the local dog kennel…guess what my job was!
We shovelled driveways in the winter and mowed lawns in the summer. We had paper routes and part time jobs.
In the summer we would go down to the golf course and wade through the creek and pick out all the golf balls. We’d sell them to the golfers @ 50 cents a ball or $2 for five.
By Andrew McDonnell on 01.27.08 2:13 pm
Andrew – I’m truly happy to hear that you took the initiative. I’m sure there were kids like you, but I certainly haven’t seen too many in the last 10-15 years.
BTW, I screwd up on an earlier comment. I said that kids wanted $20 under the table an hour to mow the lawn. DH told me they wanted $20 to mow our lawn. We don’t have much of a lawn as most of it is gardens (and not little round circles or beds. It takes DH 1/2 hour. But, I’ve seen kids mow our v. elderly neighbours lawn and it can take them 2 hours. And, they have about the same amount of lawn as we do.
What I’d like to see though is more immigrants going to other areas like small towns, why always the big cities where the cost of living is so high? Housing is cheaper and there are jobs in rural Canada.
Well, got to run again! Have a nice Sunday afternoon.
By Leasa on 01.27.08 2:02 pm
LOL at the ‘Attack of the Teenagers!’ You are most welcome on the links.
Now, to answer your question, and I will do so from my own personal experience as an immigrant. First, though, BIG COBGRATS to your husband on obtaining his Citizenship last year. I will never forget the ceremony and the pure joy of obtaining my own. There were 76 people that day, from 32 countries. All but two passed the Citizenship test, so 74 of us were sworn in as Canadians. it was like being united with the world that day. People who have never had to go through such a trial have little appreciation for its import.
Now, as I travelled acorss Canada I experienced all forms of bias and bigotry. First, I was an American, and has ‘an accent’ (albeit a very minor one compared to many people). Second, i encountered gender and racial bias as I was not a woman, and not an aboriginal in a place that catered first adn foremost to female aboriginals.
It was a rather trying experience. I also never asked for or recieved one penny of government assistance. I also discovered that education is not equal in Canada. I am a university graduate, en engineer with decades of professional experience. Did that count? NO! I had not graduated from an approved Canadian University. The fact that I made the National Dean’s list, Who’ Who, etc., also meant nothing, not mention all the experience I have.
So, why do immigrants migrate to the GTA and large cities? Simple. they can find support systems there that are simply not available in rural areas. Yes, they congregate in ghettos (menaing an ehtic community, not a slum area). The same happens in all major U.S. cities, as well as in European, Asian, etc. cities. it is only normal for human beings to congregate with those who understand them, share their background, religion, culture, etc. There is a functionaing network present to assist them in getting started.
Tehre are also far more job opportunities available for them Regardless of what people like to think about employment this is how it works in reality.
1. The first choice of any company will be from an employee they trust, and that means referrals.
2. The second choice, failing the first, is a head Hunter Agency
3. The last ditch place is a newspaper Want Ad. Generally that means the company is either small, bad to work for, has high turnover, or is looking outside their immediate area for skill sets they cannot, or do not want from their own area.
When I first came here I had a job waiting. That job turned out to be a sham position, so I took my abilities, funds, and determination and started my own company. I had been there before, so I had decades of experience. Thankfully, I have survived and have a pleasant life now doing what I enjoy.
The key was, is, and always will be NETWORKING. I am always looking for honest opportunites, and if they come, and they fit my plan, then they turn into money in my pocket.
Being over 45 at the time was no help whatsoever. Believe me we older Boomers are NOT appreciated for our knowledge. That seems to be changing because employers are finding out that university degrees alone do not knowledgeable employees make.
So, there is location, gender, racial, national origin, accent, and age bias all working against any immigrant who comes here. I had it very hard at times, but nothing compared to what non-English or French speaking people endure. They get my deepest respect.
As to housing costs being cheaper in rural areas. That is true, but the pay rates are way lower as well, and the remoteness is devastating. Look at the attitudes over in Herouxville , Quebec? Never fail to recognize that Canada has a lot of Rednecks. We most certainly do!
Have a nice afternoon!
On “intentional foreclosure” and “flipping forward”, just make sure that your mortgage agreement does not leave you liable for any shortfall between your mortgage debt and the proceeds of the forced sale of your property.
Most mortgage lenders are not dumb.
“… that any person with a brain would ever have the gall to print outright lies like this.” – Dan Bool
That is the neo-Republican renewal of Canadian politics. We’ve always had a modicum of verbal trickery, but no outright lies.
To Bill Muskoka: You are very quick to jump on Harry S but where do you get your numbers from on the IT fiasco?
35 billion stolen? If stolen where did the money go? Did the numbers come within hours after the announcement. I chart around 10 IT’s and most were starting to consolidate or recover within 48 HRS. Within a week it was clearly rebounding. No finacial advisor that I listened to advised to dump the shares. The loudest noise is still the “Big Money” as it is affecting them to greater degree. Now we are seeing a general downturn and you will still try to pin it on Harper.
By Thomas Stirr on 01.27.08 11:58 am
The problem basically is theological and involves a spiritual recrudescence and improvement of human character that will synchronize with our almost matchless advances in science, art, literature and all material and cultural development of the past two thousand years. It must be of the spirit if we are to save the flesh.”
Thomas Stirr
http://www.tomstirr.com
……………………………….
Stirring words from Gen. MacArthur and you too in your other postings .. in contrast to the stench that emits from the Liberal cesspool of fearmongering, scaremongering and smearmongering so evident.
The hatred that pours forth from Liberals is frightening as they curse and mock the country’s Prime Minister Harper. It’s almost like these Liberals cannot breathe the same air as the rest of us do with a Conservative government leading the nation.
I don’t know about you, but I am fearful of the mendacious Liberal party that sinks to the lowest levels of American-style political attack. Their desperation is so palpable, almost as if they can’t posit anybody but themselves governing Canada.
The Liberal party is the epitome of ‘democratic dictatorship’, and that is what makes me fear for Canada and all Canadians of good will.
The victorious Americans offered the vanquished Japanese forgiveness and survival, but Liberals in Canada seem not to have any of those qualities. The Liberal party needs a ‘renewal’(purge) to cleanse itself of it’s monstrous, sordid, corrupt past.
To date, I do not see a Liberal leader needed to do the job. Liberals are lost because they have forsaken fairness and faith in themselves and Canadians too.
Lana,
if you’re treading water now, you’ll sink should your income decline when your husband retires.
Track where your money goes now, do an honest appraisal of what you’ll make in retirement, and adjust your housing and/or living costs accordingly.
My DH can do just about anything, but he never got around to taking Cleaning 101.
By kpn on 01.27.08 3:55 pm
You’re looking a little ‘flushed’ ma ami!
Now we are seeing a general downturn and you will still try to pin it on Harper.
By Duane W on 01.27.08 4:46 pm
As to the figures…what source are you using? As to mine, every MSM has used my figure.
Does the FACT that Harper PROMISED never to tax the IT’s mean anything to you? Do promises mean anything to you? ARE YOU ONE OF THE INFAMOUS ‘PLAYERS’?
As to the current downturn, I have not blamed Harper one time for that. That is the direct result of the philosophy of greed that people, like Dumb Fools, have bought into. Now the Sleeping Dog has awakened and bit them in their arse.
Harper has enough negatives going to fuel years of review by Canadians.
By Harry S on 01.27.08 4:54 pm
Thank you Sgt. Schultz for your insights!
HNESNESNE That’s the ticket Harry!
What I’d like to see though is more immigrants going to other areas like small towns, why always the big cities where the cost of living is so high? Housing is cheaper and there are jobs in rural Canada.
By Leasa on 01.27.08 2:02 pm
I agree with you on this point Leasa. I believe immigrants generally go to larger centres because they believe the employment opportunities to be far superior, they find communities of their countrymen there, and are able to social network better in their view. There may also be some apprehension as to acceptance in smaller communities as well.
Nonetheless, my experiences with the fortunes of immigrant families in low population areas has been encouraging. I have found them to be industrious, family oriented and entrepreneurial.
Their children seem to integrate well, and are well accepted generally, and usually good students.
If immigration workers were asked to make efforts encouraging more settlement in rural areas, some headway might be made in this regard.
Has anyone called you an idiot yet today? — Garth
By Harry S on 01.26.08 6:48 pm
For what it’s worth, whenever I need a boost of mirth in my day, I read part of Harry’s posts — almost as good as MPFC Ministry of Silly Walks sketch!
———————————————————————–
Has anyone considered that the Harper Conservatives’ raid on Income Trusts and the damage done to the elderly was planned?
What now will the elders sell to survive since their retirement funds have been wiped out?
By Liz on 01.27.08 4:24 am
Damned right it was planned so that Morons Unlimited could go on their spending spree throughout the country, dropping a few hundred million here — OF OUR MONEY — and a billion there (especially Quebec, which only needs a reasonable amount).
This is called vote-buying; all they did was to raid the pantry whilst they figured no one was looking. However, they were caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
When the time is right (prior to the election), they will cook the books to make themselves out as saviours of a near-dead economy.
The election must be called sometime. Time to switch trains, as CRAP are like British Rail — they’re always breaking down!
Libs., Greens and the Rhino Party are way more reliable.
By Liberals Suck on 01.27.08 3:50 pm
Your ideas are so antiquated that it is very difficult to know where to begin.
We have some problems in the world these days. Two of the significant ones are the environment and the depleting reserves of fossil fuel.
We have some challenges to rise to here in Canada. Two of them are how we are going to reduce our impact on the environment and how are we going to continue to function as a society as the world depletes its fossil fuel reserves.
Our use of the personal automobile is the single largest impact on our environment.
Western Europe is at least 20 years ahead of us in their preparation for the depletion of the fossil fuels because they have been developing infrastructures that are not dependent on the personal automobile to function.
What we have to be doing in Canada right now is changing the structure of our society such that, as much as possible, we do not have to commute and when we do it can be done, as much as possible, by public transit.
To say the least we have a long way to go on both counts because we have not started. The reason we have not started is poor leadership. The poor leadership is not isolated in any particular party.
There are some extraordinary posts on this blog. All of Brain’s that I have seen for example. I would suggest that you read, learn and think a lot more before posting here. You are doing your cause a disservice.
Garth,
Would it be possible to have the bloggers name at both the bottom and the top of their posts?
It would save us the time and trouble of reading the first few lines of a post before scrolling to the bottom to find something like “By Harry S on 01.??.?? ?:?? pm” and realizing there’s not likely to be any thought provoking content.
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.27.08 5:21 pm
By Harry S on 01.27.08 4:54 pm
Thank you Sgt. Schultz for your insights!
HNESNESNE That’s the ticket Harry!
………………………………
Bill-Muskkka is a Harper-hater .. and there can be no doubt about that. I on the other hand argue that Dion is not the leader needed to ‘renew’(purge) the Liberal party of it’s sordid and ever-present past.
Before any staunch Liberals on this forum try to attack the Conservative government, they should first look at their political legacy and failed leadership. Canadians do not want another Liberal prime minister from Quebec now .. and Dion must be replaced asap.
Dion is now being used as a kamikaze politician who is sinking to his lowest before he exits in a flaming mess. What we are witnessing now is the final death throes of the Liberal Beast.
By Duane W on 01.27.08 4:46 pm
http://caiti-online.blogspot.com/2008/01/harper-tacked-and-weaved-more-like-lied_26.html
This site best explains it. Brent Fullard likely puts the best color on it with his video interview you will find on the right as you scroll down.
BTW, if you haven’t got the time, stay misinformed.
Harry S…
After reading your link of which you jumped on Garth (for whatever convoluted reason, I don’t know), I noted that its 1998 data did not suggest what percentage of immigrants owned homes in the GTA. What was implied was that they live in apartments and low cost housing.
Your earlier link implies a lower income standard with immigrants as well. You should think about becoming a member of the National Citizens Coalition. They’ve ran media campaigns against immigrants in the past… when boat people arrived as refugee’s as an example, but they ran much more recent campaigns that were just as agressive against immigration in this country.
The NCC, helmed by Harper for the previous 5 years to his Conservative leadership of which he states many times he has never encountered a disagreement in NCC policy, is where I believe you will find your home.
http://caiti-online.blogspot.com/2008/01/national-citizens-coalition-alberta_13.html
Its an interesting thing about polls and surveys.. if they dont’ ask the right questions, they never get the right answers…
Enjoy your new direction, Harry S, as Garth is clearly no longer in your favor. Hopefully, G’ bye!
Starting to read some are complaining we are blaming Harper…….hmmm has the tide changed here. It’s this way when you run for the job of PM and win it means you are in kitchen, and if y’all can not stand the heat, then leave. Just in case y’all did not hear M. Dion on Check_Up he stated very clearly, if Canada makes a comittment it will keep it under a Liberal goverment, last one was made under a short notice (6 hr debate) was till February 2009..case closed! If PMSH wants more then let him say so and ask for vote, case closed again. Now that sounds like a clear and concise response to me>
Tomorrow, Jan. 28th, Canadian Parliament hangs up the “WE’RE OPEN” sign again – after a 6? WEEK absence, and preceded by an absence due to “pro roguing”. WHAT DOES IT SAY – WHAT SHOULD IT MEAN – in light of the fact that MOST Canadians are NOT BEING REPRESENTED by the current government holding the power?
FINANCES – within a country – HOLD THE KEY to the state of faring well AND to the well being of all citizens of a country. The “faring well” part might be acceptable if Canada was just another province (state) of The Big Brother. But if Canada is, TRULY, it’s own country, then what the current government in power has done and continues to do, IS UNACCEPTABLE. The “well being of all citizens” part – if one observes the misery – it is plain to see that the government has NOT proven itself TRUE to its own citizens.
There is a groundswell of support for a Canadian Government of the TRUE kind, and there is NO POSSIBILITY for the current government in power to offer that. EVER!
It is A SHAME, that a lone, private citizen (BUT NOT ALONE) has to spearhead, through all the BSGOVMSMCON propaganda that allows the treason to continue. Thank you Mr. Fullard.
GET ON BOARD, taxpayers of Canada. YOUR tax dollars are being STOLEN FROM ALL the programs that you are relying on.
Bill-Muskkka is a Harper-hater .. and there can be no doubt about that. I on the other hand argue that Dion is not the leader needed to ‘renew’(purge) the Liberal party of it’s sordid and ever-present past.
Nice CRAP comment Harry. No, Harper EARNED my disrespect by lieing, deceiving, and bing a total Dickhead for two years.
As to Dion, I say this, The Liberal Party elected him and he has NOT disearned my respect. Who else is there? Jack layton? He and the CPC used car salesman would make a great team.
Like I said Harper represents Caesar Disgustus to me. He earned that title, not because he is a Conservative, but because he is a CONswervative with no moral, or ethical compass, and is interested only in power. Harper is NOT a leader. At least not of Free, and thinking people with a functional mind. Neither are his PMO stooges.
You are the one with the unfounded hate Harry. You are a bigot, in more ways than I will bother to name. You hate Liberals, but without thinking beyond your little minded world.
You, Harry, are INFERIOR as a human being. In fact I can only classify you as a Homo Sapien. Humans have the ability to think, evaluate, and make an informed and rational choice of action. Your hate shows through here every day. You hate all things Liberal, and especially Stephane Dion. Why Harry? Does he threaten your manhood?
Harry, are you really Iggy? He too hates all things related to Dion and lusts for power regardless.
By Charles Oxley on 01.26.08 10:03 pm
Charles, I used to work for the fellow who used to implode the few buildings in Vancouver that had to be brought down that way – with explosives. He explained a lot and had a lot of movies too. His dad did it before him.
The clean and straight drop of the long roofline just doesn’t look like a building collapsing after burning for 7 hours. Especially one that was partially shielded. Funny that all 3 collappsed. Building, Tall ones, just don’t.
Also, WTC7 was home to all sorts of interesting outfits wasn’t it? CIA and FEMA and Insurance I think. Can’t remember right now.
Even if the Japanese video is something else…discussion for a new blockbuster “what-if” movie. It’s still worth the watch:)
Geo
Cheers.
By Catherine on 01.27.08 12:44 pm
I imagine that by living in a McMansion, you will never know that true feeling of elation when a broker says,
“Your mortgage is due for renewal, and this is the rate the bank will charge.”
“Ummm, We’re not renewing, we’re going to pay it off.”
The person at the Bank of Nova Scotia (as it was known in the early ’80s) looked at us as if he hadn’t heard what Sandy and I told him, so she repeated it,
“We’re paying it off completely.”
By the time all was said and done, we had a paid-for townhome in Willowdale, Ont., just under $400 in the bank and no investments. No debt, either.
The Canada Savings Bonds we had been acquiring for a few years up to then came in mighty handy when the interest rates were about 21% — they all went toward paying it off.
About six months later, San said she really wanted to quit work. I said, “If you want to quit, quit. I’ve got a really good paying trade which will support us.”
After that, we started saving for a rainy day — our retirement — and despite all the ups and downs, highs and lows of life, it’s all been worthwhile.
You’re right about one thing, Catherine — Cheers.
Life is far too short a journey, from beginning to end, to get caught up in the garbage down here.
Cheers!
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.27.08 6:04 pm
As to Dion, I say this, The Liberal Party elected him and he has NOT disearned my respect.
Harry, are you really Iggy? He too hates all things related to Dion and lusts for power regardless.
————————————————————————————–
It’s getting harder to parse out the significant tidbits in your loquacious blurting, Bill-Muskkka, but let me try.
The fact is, Dion was not ‘elected’ by the Liberal Party .. he was ’selected’ by the backroom types brokering votes and making promises to save old dog Liberals from being purged out of the party, accepting support form David Orchard and his 150 delegate votes, and even pandering to the ‘extremist element’ that attacked Bob Rae’s Jewish wife and those who didn’t want any further investigation into Air India. This is common knowledge in Ottawa and the Liberal party.
Belinda Stronach said she could not participate in the Liberal leadership race because it was not based on grassroots democratic voting like in the Conservative party .. Instead is was controlled and manipulated by the delegates after the first vote was cast representing grassroots Liberal preference … then it became a backroom brokered vote. Not exactly representative democracy within the Liberal party..!!
In the first vote at the leadership convention, Ignatieff won 29% of the grassroots vote while Dion only managed 17%, and that was after 12 months of campaigning. What do the Liberal grassroots members know that you don’t know about Dion??
Now Liberals are burdened with a failed leader in Dion, and resorting to the lowest form of politicking …. fearmongering and lies. Oh how desperate the once mighty Liberal party has become … a snarling beast with no redeeming qualities that Canadians can see come any next election.
Hatemongering types like you fill political forums and wail away at the Conservatives, but you can offer nothing much positive for Canadians. You are a bunch of wild anarchists who smear and intimidate, all because you are devoid of rationale or reason.
The Liberal party desperately needs new leadership to drag it out of it’s cesspool of hate and mendacity. Anybody other than Dion would be acceptable to most Canadians. Let the purge begin.
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.27.08 5:18 pm
Humour us Billy, lists the ITs that you have lost and never recovered. Thank ya.
By Charles Oxley on 01.27.08 6:28 pm
Now Charles, your “McMansion” was called for. But, hey, for some, making fun or marginalizing their opponents is about all the debating intellect one has. Pity.
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.27.08 2:15 pm
Glad I could give you a giggle.
It’s unfortunate that Airry is such an angry man.
When I sense substantial anger, I try to remember this.
“When I left for work that morning, it was a normal day. When I came home, my neighbors house was gone. A V-1 had destroyed it while I was gone. I remember the sound of the buzz bombs, the V-1’s. They were called that because they made a buzzing noise until they ran out of fuel. Then they dropped. Like a stone. My neighbors house was gone. Just a hole in the ground, was all that was left.
Me Ma told me that.
Funny, what a young man recollects.
Comrade Okie
Leasa approx 2pm (and Greg around 5)
You might be surprised how many do come out to the sticks, the depopulating hinterland. The fact remains that there are a lot more jobs to be had in the urban mass – so more will go there.
Take a look at the demographics of the hinterland – it is steadily depopulating as the jobs disappear – the decline is in the young adults with young kids bracket – and the more of those you have, the more school teachers, doctors, dentists, churches, arenas, swimming pools, telephone installers, municipal public works staff, librarians, etc you have.
Out here in the hinterland, there’s an awful lot of jobs that have disappeared through mechanization – not to mention the vicissitudes of rising energy costs and the canadian dollar.
Canada doesn’t look like it did 50 years ago, and some of these changes are actually to the good. And some can even be directly attributed to the actions of individual politicians.
Or, as another track says ‘We are ‘all to busy being fabulous!’
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.27.08 3:03 pm
Bill, Thanks! Great lyrics!! I bet the “fabulous” ones are too. Any chance of sharing those?
I know what type you are and I like you just fine. What I’d be curious to hear is how Cathy describes herself. Somehow her description and mine would be somewhat different I’m sure.
Geo
http://www.ctv.ca/mar/photo.html?pname=http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20080127/450_QP_ignatieff_080127.jpg&win_width=795.0&description=Deputy%20Liberal%20Leader%20Michael%20Ignatieff%20speaks%20with%20CTV’s%20Question%20Period%20on%20Sunday,%20Jan.%2027,%202008.&slug=ignatieff_qp_080127
Deputy Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff speaks with CTV’s Question Period on Sunday, Jan. 27, 2008.
Now here is the image of a Leader, and if you had watched and listened to Ignatieff on CTV QP, you would agree with me.
By Georgine on 01.27.08 6:05 pm
Probably a Cruise Missile. The one that struck the Pentagon. Thanks for the alert.
By Georgine on 01.27.08 6:05 pm
Or, I meant to add, the Controlling aircraft.
. . . related to Dion and lusts for power regardless.
By Bill-Muskoka on 01.27.08 6:04 pm
I watched an interview with Eric Idle of MPFC several years ago. His idea for the title of their film “Life of Brian” was “Jesus Christ’s Lust For Power”! The other Pythons laughed their socks off, then nixed it — too provocative.
It was, and remains one of the funniest spoofs I have ever seen (I was a Catholic for 17 years). Cleese said that “Brian” was the happiest time the Pythons ever had.
—————————————————————————–
By Georgine on 01.27.08 6:05 pm
Three questions that the msm never has, nor will ask:
First, why was the USAF ordered to stand down that morning? There were fighter jets — all within a few minutes — which could easily have shot down all those passenger jets.
Second, supposedly a year or so before the attacks happened, the owner of the towers took out an insurance policy, which covered terrorists attacks.
I don’t know what the premium was, but that person ended up collecting $4 billion (or thereabout).
Did said person know in advance that something was going to happen? When the tower in Madrid, Spain caught fire and burnt — about 20 storeys up in 2003 later — it didn’t collapse.
Third, hours after all planes had been grounded (remember the airports?) a private jet WAS allowed to leave from Florida. It carried the bin Laden family, who have had ties with the Bush family for decades.
Doesn’t matter about any of this, because the msm will keep burying it for time immemorial.
A real case of the ‘Empire Strikes Back?’
Is the Empire State Building New York’s Bermuda Triangle?
Man, we need to update the CN Tower asap! LOL
This comes from the other side of the pond (Limeyland).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/01/24/bcnstig124.xml
The US mortgage crisis is all based on fraud. Individuals were paid to buy homes. As the home rose in price they leveraged them against the equity.
These people in the States do not need lawyers to close housing deals it is done through their realtor.
The problem is that these mortgages were passed on to Wall Street to the big broker who passed them on around the world to their customers as suecured investments.
The foreclosures are people who have just walked away after they pocketed the cash. This cannot happen in Canada as we need Lawyers. We have to put 25% down and if we do not have that amount the remainder of the mortgage must be insured.
This has affected world markets as the world is holding the debt issues. The people who caused the problem have their money. Large financial institutions are having to write off the debt. It is estimated to be 1 trillion plus.
Yes, the “big house” crowd in the Maritimes WILL be crushed by the pending real estate bust as well…
Harry? Fearmongering? Do you understand economics at all?
Back to the topic, “60 Minutes” had a sweet segment on sub-prime money and the housing market tonight:
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml
Click on “House of Cards.”
FOR LANA 01.17.08
We have retired two mortgages over our lifetime. We purchased a starter in 72 and retired the mortgage in 1981. We had a new home built in 1986 and retired the mortgage in 1990. We sod and purchased a detached condo built and did not take a mortgage.
The way we found to do it was ensuring we paid the 10% or 15% allowed annually as this comes directly off the principle.
When weekly and bi-weekly mortgages became available we took full advantage of the weekly. For example a home purchased with a 25 year amortization would be paid for in approximately 18 years if the interest rate remains the same. If you also pay down the principle annually by the 10% or 15% will retire the mortgage quicker.
Go to Coles Bookstore and pick up an amorization book it will serve as a great tool to tell you when you can have your mortgage paid off.
http://www.softsphereconsulting.com/gselzler/Blog/CanadianPoliceState.aspx
Interesting link.
“Society” has become a really sad, pathetic entity. A few years ago, a person was giving a speech, and said something to the effect of:
” . . . Where has all the comedy gone? Why does no one laugh anymore? It has become so politically correct to stay in line with the establishment.”
If people want to believe in something that doesn’t exist, fine — that is their choice. I will always ignore the establishment; it hasn’t done a thing for me.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7204635.stm
BERNANKE’S EASING THWARTED BY SURGING COMMERCIAL MORTGAGE RATES:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aaK_r.bfo7TI&refer=home#
Perhaps this article explains WHY the income trust theft ended up EXEMPTING the REITS. (Looks like the REITS need a bailout from the everyday investor – despite the fact that it appears there could be little real
income available from this “investment choice” due to the facts as portrayed in this article. (What better way to appease those snarly income trust investors – just make the junk available to them – let THEM be on the hook in trying to collect income from depreciating/debt laden/possibly bankrupt entities.)
Another example of why the current government’s truth is only found in its presentation. (Halloween night/Income Trusts – Lists – GST cut/bookstore photo-op with Harry Potter – Keen firing/dark of night)
VERY BLACK
Harry? Fearmongering? Do you understand economics at all?
By Glen on 01.27.08 8:13 pm
………………………………
You mean stuff like where supply and demand curves intersect, and interest rates ….??!!!
Garth…was interested in seeing how Canada compares internationally in housing affordability, and came across this study. Of major English-speaking countries, Canadian housing affordability actually looks pretty reasonable although some markets are definitely out of hand.
Median multiple (median house price divided by median household income) for Canada is 3.1. US is 3.6, Australia & New Zealand 6.3, and the UK 5.5.
On the other hand, the authors prescribe the solution as “allowing housing to be built on low-cost urban fringe land.” which may indeed help to make housing more affordable, but also exacerbates the environmental, tax unsustainability and quality of life issues that are caused by unmanaged sprawl.
Harry (my) S’s ploy is a clear attempt at dividing LPC supporters with claims of “really being a Liberal”. Quite pathetic when one looks at his unabashed support of Harper’s and the CPC’s policies, which make even former PC shudder.
The point that people should try to remember about Dion when is comes to leadership, was that despite the high powered support of Rae and Ignatieff (whose support base consisted entirely of cronies…why do you make stuff up Harry?), despite the old guard that supported these two in their leadership bid, Dion won. And he did it by relying on the rank-and-file joe-blow Liberal.
Sorry, but this strikes me as someone who can lead and someone who knows how to build something strong enough to topple giants.
Personally, I think he will win the election because of that same tenacity and honesty, regardless of what the pundits and nervous nellies claim. Polls only reflect the opinions of those that wish to state their opinion, and in no way reflects the true feelings of the general population. And that is why the CPC fails miserably.
As far as the Garth’s original post, I just wanted to say that us young families in general (not me) buy into housing because banks offered 0% down-payment financing, and it is fear that the market will price housing even further out of reach. What family doesn’t dream of owning their own home? Banks are equally culpable in this housing mess. And for them, they can offer all of this because they end up owning the asset if they foreclose. Win-win for them. So governments can help by being responsible with our tax dollars, and not throwing around money to buy votes. How many billions of dollars have been promised that achieve absolutely nothing in spurring or maintaining economic growth by those CPC hacks? Face it, not only are they liars, but they are incompetent planners.
Austin
Austin
By Harry S on 01.27.08 6:53 pm
Whatever you say Iggy!
By Georgine on 01.27.08 7:12 pm
You really must buy the CD. Go to WalMart and save mucho bucks. The lyrics are inluded, although the type size is like the contraindications for meds. We Boomers can’t read those very well either. LOL
Humour us Billy, lists the ITs that you have lost and never recovered. Thank ya.
By Catherine on 01.27.08 6:56 pm
We lost nada CC. We are not greedy, so we have our investments in more secure locations. The fact remains Harper LIED! That is L-I-E-D Chatty Cathy. Look it up! Try to comprehend the meaning.
Oh, I bet you don’t believe lieing exists? You do it so often here!
There, are you laughing now CC?
By Harry S on 01.27.08 6:53 pm
BTW, you never answered my question. Are you Iggy? But then, you never answer questions, just like the mindless CRAP parrots during QP. That would not be authorized by Caesar Disgustus, would it Harry? That is another question BTW.
But, hey, for some, making fun or marginalizing their opponents is about all the debating intellect one has. Pity.
By Catherine on 01.27.08 6:57 pm
And you would know this from how?
By Harry S on 01.27.08 7:17 pm
Wow Harry, you really are a Closet Liberal arent you? In fact, you are Iggy! Garth can tell us by checking your IP addy.
Try telling us something you don;t like about Harper? What? That is not allowed?
Oh, yeah, you (actualy Stev the Dreeb) are so scared shitless of Dion, that Harper, aka, Caesar Disgustus, has assigned you to cause confusion that Iggy should be the Liberal Leader. Well, Harry, here is the score in my book. Dion is the Liberal Leader. Iggy is the wannabe Lieberal Leader.
Wanna up the ante Harry?
By D Halfkenny on 01.27.08 8:37 pm
If you want amortization schedule just go to your bank online. They are all their for free. At least RBC has one. I am sure Scotia, BMO, and CIBC do as well. Why spend money for a book? That is not a very conservative approach to problem solving.
By D Halfkenny on 01.27.08 8:03 pm
You have that correct. I am waiting for the writ to come down for a class action suit naming Visa, Master Card. etc., who promoted adding the credit card debt on as second and third mortgages, who conspired with the banks and sub-prime lebders to prevent the collapse of the entire credit card industry.
Watch,it is coming soon to a news cast near you.
It is all linked together to keep the mindless consumerism afloat. Unfortunately, like the Titantic, physics is unaffected by BS.
Why do you think businesses like the Brick keep offering delayed payment plans?
Their plan has failed. I just watched the ‘Bourne Ultimatum’ in PPV. Hmmmmmmm…same plan that went awary.
Down the Rabbit Hole we go! Hoorah!
I will always ignore the establishment; it hasn’t done a thing for me.
By Charles Oxley on 01.27.08 9:07 pm
We haven’t had that vintage here since 1969!
LOL!
Funny, what a young man recollects.
Comrade Okie
By Greg on 01.27.08 6:59 pm
Yes, indeed it is. And we Old Men recollect that and far more.
Like Al Capone’s Country Speakeasy on U.S. 40. Last time I saw it , it was called ‘Kiddieland’. My dad pointed it out as we drove home from my grandmother’s funeral at my young age of 10!.
I also recall the stories of a former family member who was in Buchenwald Concentration Camp in Nazi Germany. So many memories, so damn little understanding of history nowadays.
The V-1’s were not Smart Bombs, but they were Terrorist Weapons to be sure.
They have come a long way from those pre-warning noise makers. Now, all you hear is a millisecond of BANG, and you are GONE!
Isn’t technology wonderful?
By Charles Oxley on 01.27.08 7:30 pm
CBC’s ‘Fifth Estate’ broadcast that info even before Micheal Moore’s ‘Farhenheit 9/11′ came out.
Nice to have connections with the Bush family, eh? Afterall, that’s the least Dubya and his daddy could do after the Bin Laden Group bailed Georgey Boy’s arse out of bankruptcy!
Second, supposedly a year or so before the attacks happened, the owner of the towers took out an insurance policy, which covered terrorists attacks.
I don’t know what the premium was, but that person ended up collecting $4 billion (or thereabout). – Charles
Larry somethingstein took out an insurance policy on the towers 7 weeks before 911 for 7 billion in payouts against a terrorist attack.
By brain on 01.27.08 11:58 pm
Hence the American maxim of ‘Follow the money!’
See you in the ‘My Job’ topic.
I am a Canadian, and I deserve better than Dion from the Liberal party. I don’t want another Liberal prime minister from Quebec.
Turdeau, (Mulroney), Chretien, Martin … all lawyers .. all lapsed RCs .. all from Quebec .. all corrupt… !!!
Plain and simple ..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Looking forward to hearing more about this project Garth – as 1/2 of a young couple who have yet to wade into the mire of home ownership, I am quite interested in hearing your perspective.
Smart people aren’t buying real estate at the moment…they’re waiting for prices to dive.
No one should buy what they can’t afford. Maximum monthly that should be spent on housing 1/3 of income including utilities. The bigger the downpayment you put on a house, the less you have to pay in interest. Make sure you read the amortization table and know how much you’re paying out in interest and how many times you can make payments that lower the principal without penalty.
Make sure when you retire, your home has no mortgage and credit cards don’t have to be used that can’t be paid in full monthly so no interest is incurred. For peak spending periods, arrange a line of credit…far lower interest rates than credit cards. Don’t ever charge things to places like Sears, the interest of which is over 30%/annum.
Buy used cars…the depreciation is more than 50%. I picked up a 2006 Ford Focus stationwagon for $14,000, selling price new: more than $29,000. We do need a large vehicle because we often carry building materials from stores to our house, but this one gets 35 mpg highway. The mileage on it was 6600 kilometers. She paid more than $14,000 depreciation and put a really small amount of mileage on the vehicle. Deals are out there…we just happened to see the vehicle being brought in for trade and drove and bought it the following day.
Life within your means. No one needs a suite separating the children from the parents. When a house is too big, owners end up employing people to keep it clean because they’re busy at work. Or they exhuast themselves which means less time spent on developing their relationships with their spouses and children.
Children should not have televisions in their bedrooms–all entertainment should be shared. Restrictions need to be placed on children’s Internet usage…teens are committing suicide because of cyber bulling. Make sure your children and teens know ‘never-ever’ to give out their passwords. They also need to have ‘real friends’ that develop social skills. Know where and what your children are doing. Families that play together tend to stay together. Find a sport or activity that everyone likes and participates in together.
A housing crash would be great news.
For all those people that listened to the banks and mortgage brokers…too bad!!! When the melt down happens here, l will be waiting to pick up a few bargains. Recessions are good news for those of us that have cash in our pocket:-)
I am a Canadian, and I deserve better than Dion from the Liberal party. I don’t want another Liberal prime minister from Quebec.
Turdeau, (Mulroney), Chretien, Martin … all lawyers .. all lapsed RCs .. all from Quebec .. all corrupt… !!!
Plain and simple ..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Harry S on 01.28.08 11:13 am
Well Harry, I am Canadian too & I deserve better than the likes of fibber Harper destroying my country. I most certainly do not want him or another Alliance Party member for that matter, running my country.
Can I be any clearer?
Cheers
Harry….thanks for that response. I thought so…
Folks, the real estate crash is but a few months to a year away at best.
Are you ready? Or do you love the look of those granite countertops THAT much?
Well Andrew, I am afraid that you were probably in the minority, as my children were. Many of their friends were not interested in these after school jobs. Their parents coughed up the money for their expensive bling blings. Take a look around now. Why do teens need their cell phones stuck to their ears (in shopping centres and on buses) and all you get hear “Oh no”, “yeah”, and “like this” and “like that”. Do you think that these teens will grow up respecting the true costs of living?
By Catherine on 01.27.08 4:05 pm
Honestly Catherine, I don’t think that I was in the minority. Many of my friends did have parents that could have afforded to have spoiled them but they didn’t. Most of my childhood friends are still my friends and I can assure you that they watch every dollar.
I remember asking my Dad for money for jeans and being handed $15. When I explained that the Levis that I wore cost $50 I was told to “get in the car…we’re going to Zellers”.
“Those darn kids of today” is an age old lament. I’m not too worried. All it takes is a trip to my local Timmie’s to see the local youth working away at 6am to lift my spirits and justify my confidence in today’s youth.
Heck, the young families that I know don’t have the money to spoil their kids. When dad’s making his Friday night six pack last all week and mom’s getting her hair done at Magicuts, moderation sets in.
I really do hope that I’m right on this one Catherine as they’re the ones that will be looking after me in my later years!