Doubtlessly, they would not understand. Had my former Conservative colleagues been able to get past the security guards and pry open the two sets of doors to the Liberal national caucus meeting room Monday night, they’d be dumbfounded.
While I cannot tell you what was said, who said it, or what the consensus was, I can tell you this: for two hours Stephane Dion and his lieutenants sat and listened to MPs. The topic, as you know, was Afghanistan. The range of opinions was extreme. The number of speakers was numbing. Reaction included wild applause and uneasy silences. There was eloquence and frustration. The leader was showered with advice. And everyone who wanted to stand before one of those black floor microphones got to do so.
I watched and listened closely. Yes, I spoke too. Some of what I heard was profound. Some of it was politically naïve. Some very moving. Some dangerous.
At the end of it all, I knew what the leader’s actions would be, a conclusion I’d suspected earlier in the day during our strategic planning group meeting. It’s a strategy quintessentially Liberal and, most would say, essentially Canadian. It seeks compromise and middle ground. And it’s just what Conservatives will not understand, and likely pounce upon.
Will it work?
Beats me. That depends on Stephen Harper, whether his objective is to actually help the people in Afghanistan, and move the country forward in a non-partisan manner, or use the war as a political weapon, and destroy Dion. Like I don’t know the answer to that one. But I guess there’s hope.
Tuesday will start that process. I now have no idea where it will end.
But, this I do know. Every voice was heard spontaneously within this national Liberal caucus. To speak, one needed only raise a hand. In the Conservative caucus, advance permission to rise must be granted in advance by a subordinate caucus group. In this caucus, the leader is among the first to enter and the last to leave. In the Conservative caucus, Stephen Harper makes an entrance and MPs must stand. In this caucus, policy is formulated, changed, vetted by the representatives of the people. In the Harper caucus, elected people are told, often by PMO staff, what they will do, say, support and believe.
Finally, I know the MPs I spent Monday night with had, that day, received your words. I wish I could tell you more about the conversation. You’d be proud.
80 comments ↓
I guess that the Pentagon has finally figured out that going to another country and killing people instead of helping them makes them mad. Sounds a lot like what Dion is advocating:
“U.S. allies and international organizations, such as NATO, the European Union, and the United Nations could help the United States in areas such as “building education, health and justice systems, and training police and” military forces that perform civilian police duties.”
U.S. deficient against Muslim insurgents, study says
* Rand Corp.: Forces “at best inadequate, at worst counter-productive,” “infeasible”
* Violent Muslim extremism “gravest national security threat,” study says
* U.S. should focus on “civil governance” and building “local security forces”
* Such “capabilities … have been lacking in Iraq and Afghanistan,” says report
WASHINGTON (CNN) — The U.S. military is seriously deficient in meeting “the threat of Islamist insurgencies,” says a Pentagon-commissioned study released Monday.
The Rand Corp. report characterizes “U.S. military intervention and occupation in the Muslim world” as “at best inadequate, at worst counter-productive, and, on the whole, infeasible.” The Pentagon asked the nonprofit research organization to review strategies to thwart insurgents.
The United States should instead focus its priorities on improving “civil governance” and building “local security forces,” according to the report, referring to those steps as “capabilities that have been lacking in Iraq and Afghanistan.”
“Violent extremism in the Muslim world is the gravest national security threat the United States faces,” said David C. Gompert, the report’s lead author and a senior fellow at Rand. “Because this threat is likely to persist and could grow, it is important to understand the United States is currently not capable of adequately addressing the challenge.”
The Pentagon did not respond to calls Monday from CNN seeking comment.
The report is titled “War by Other Means: Building Complete and Balanced Capabilities for Counterinsurgency.”
It focused on the increase of about 30,000 U.S. troops in Iraq over the past year — the “surge” — which supporters have credited for a decrease in insurgent attacks.
But “it would be a profound mistake to conclude from [the troop increase] that all the United States needs is more military force to defeat Islamist insurgencies,” Gompert said. “One need only contemplate the precarious condition of Pakistan to realize the limitations of U.S. military power and the peril of relying upon it.”
The study notes that U.S. military interventions can be risky as well as costly because of the tenacity of jihadists, “infected by religious extremism.” It says massive military interventions against insurgencies usually fail.
Looking at some 90 conflicts since World War II, the report concludes that establishing “representative, competent and honest” local government is the way to go.
“Foreign forces cannot substitute for effective local governments, and they can even weaken their legitimacy,” said co-author John Gordon. The study says the United States would have more success if the insurgency were defused early and it must develop ways to interpret early “indicators and warnings.”
Along with building “effective and legitimate local governments,” the report says the United States must do a better job of organizing, training and equipping local security forces, and gathering and sharing information.
To beef up counterinsurgency efforts, local governments must develop “job training and placement of ex-combatants; an efficient and fair justice system, including laws, courts and prisons; and accessible mass lower education,” it says.
“When it comes to building these and other civil capabilities abroad, the United States is alarmingly weak,” Gompert said. “To fix this problem, the federal government will need a dramatic increase in civilian capabilities, new organizational arrangements, and more flexible personnel policies.”
More money in foreign aid, more civilian professionals and help from U.S. allies and international groups are needed, the report said.
Other observations from the report include:
American military forces can’t keep up with training local militaries to match the growth of Muslim insurgent groups and that must improve. Police should be trained by professional police trainers.
American military prowess should focus “on border and coastal surveillance, technical intelligence collection, air mobility, large-scale logistics, and special operations against high-value targets.”
A new information-sharing architecture should be created. This “Integrated Counterinsurgency Operating Network” would promote “universal cell phone use, ‘wikis’ and video monitoring.”
“Pro-America” themes should be dropped “in favor of strengthening local government” and emphasizing the failure of jihadists to meet people’s needs.
U.S. allies and international organizations, such as NATO, the European Union, and the United Nations could help the United States in areas such as “building education, health and justice systems, and training police and” military forces that perform civilian police duties.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/11/rand.insurgencies/index.html
We wanted a firm NO – what happened – where is our voice in this travesty?
Illegal,immoral $100,000,000. per month to enforce US Hegemony.
Shame.
Shame on you for not standing up against a mysoginistic war lord/drug lord corrupt puppet regime.
http://www.rawa.ord
Karzai tortures – Karzai imposes Sharia Law – executes internet researcher.
I thought wer had a deal – the CONs would suck the US teete and Liberals would stand up for justice.
Crapola. You guys might as well admit you are too weak to LEAD.
$100,000,000.per MONTH so Mullah Omar can be Prime Minister of Afghanistan with our blessing.
Crap!
Say good night Mr Harper to …….. David Emerson!
Ah yes. What can we say about David. Life long Liberal. Campaign team extraordinaire who stumped the doors; raised the cash, pounded the signs, made the calls. Flush with victory. And voila! For what? David is suddenly a conservative cabinet minister. Did you think about all those good folks in Vancouver Kingsway who gave their after tax dollars to get you elected, Dave? Did you stand with them on election night in jubilation? Did you think about these folks who gave up their vacation time, their weekends, their down time to fight for you, Dave? Two weeks? Jeeez Dave, can you sleep at night? And Stephen? What were you thinking? Shame David! Shame Stephen!
Do we really look that stupid???
Dear Political Party Leaders,
We, the Sault Memorial Gardens Rededication Committee, are writing you to request that you demonstrate your non-partisan personal gratitude for the sacrifices of life, limb and sanity that all Veterans and military personnel make, and have made, on our behalf in order to do what they believe will make this world a better place.
We ask you to do this by taking 45 seconds to sign your name to our online petition which will carry only MORAL SUPPORT for our request of the Sault Ste. Marie City Council, but will show YOUR APPRECIATION to Veterans, military personnel and their families because it is the first step in our efforts to re-dedicate our new sports and entertainment complex as a Veteran Memorial Arena. ( http://www.PetitionOnline.com/mem0rial/petition.html )
The signers of the paper petition, which is circulating around the Sault, requests that our Sault Ste. Marie City Council restore the name ‘Sault Memorial Gardens’ as a permanent portion of the two year old sports and entertainment complex located in Memorial Square at the heart of Sault Ste. Marie which replaced the now demolished fifty-seven year old Veteran Memorial Arena, Sault Memorial Gardens, which the citizens of 1946 Sault Ste. Marie voted on and paid for in order to have a daily useable memorial to the veterans of the past, present and future.
The fifty-seven year old Veteran Memorial Arena was de-commissioned as a Veteran Memorial on April 9, 2006.
A daily physical reminder of the sacrifices Veterans and military personnel make is now GONE!
When the idea of eliminating the original name, Sault Memorial Gardens, and being replaced entirely with the name of a corporate sponsor some citizens of the Sault who remembered the original purpose of the Veteran Memorial Arena spoke out, and they had two city councilors out of thirteen who spoke on their behalf one of which was our longest standing councilor Frank Manzo who personally voted for the Veteran Memorial Arena back in 1946, and whose grandfather personally sponsored many many people from Europe to immigrate to Canada who laid the foundation of the city of Sault Ste. Marie which today provides our city with a rich European culture and strong industrial economy.
But the promise of $1.35 Million dollars over a ten year period was too great a savings for the taxpayers for our city council to turn down so the name and the Veteran Memorial aspect of the arena was lost.
With loud voices and much effort from our Mayor, John Rowswell, and a handful of dedicated volunteers the money and engineering to preserve the Memorial Tower portion of the former Sault Memorial Gardens was achieved. The Memorial Tower now stands as a free-standing structure separated from the new sports and entertainment complex and is an excellent Veteran Memorial but it is not something that future generations can use and talk about on a daily basis which would give them a better chance to know of the sacrifices that were made for them as the Saultites of 1946 intended.
Since the original signing of the sponsorship deal the sponsor has failed to honour their contractual payment and is currently under Bankruptcy Protection in the process of restructuring, hence the opportunity to recapture the name and the Veteran Memorial Arena at the request of the people of Sault Ste. Marie.
The renaming of the sports and entertainment complex with a combination title sponsor name (helps lessen the taxpayer burden and keep the name sounding fresh for the youth of our city) AND a permanent name (Sault Memorial Gardens) is the first step in our eventual goal of re-dedicating the entire sports and entertainment complex, connected Memorial Tower and all, as a Veteran Memorial Arena filled with personal mementos of military service from Sault and area residents in a secure yet easily accessible place.
Thank you for seriously considering our request, and please pass this on to all of your party members, whether or not you agree personally, so that they too have the opportunity to demonstrate their gratitude to our Veterans and military personnel and their families according to their personal beliefs. And they too can pass the petition on to potentially every Canadian so that all Canadians have the opportunity to show their gratitude to all our Veterans of the past present and future.
Although details have not yet been finalized we plan on presenting our petition to the Sault Ste. Marie City Council at the 4:30 p.m. city council meeting on Monday February 25, 2008, and encourage you to watch and/or listen in as there will be many speakers who represent all sides of the issues of corporate sponsorship of arenas as opposed to traditional names that carry lots of history and meaning and most importantly the different sides of memorializing veterans of war and the eternal hope for peace in our time.
Help us remember…
Lest we forget.
Sincerely,
Mark Brown,
Volunteer Coordinator,
on behalf of the Sault Memorial Gardens Rededication Committee
Ron W. Schinners, Veteran Memorial Co-Chair,
Randy Russon, Hockey Memorial Co-Chair,
and the 5178 confirmed signers of the paper petition as a result of just four weeks of purely voluntary effort having started with just 9 volunteers which has now grown to 80+ volunteers.
P.S. The reason this renaming and Veteran Memorial re-dedication opportunity arose is because Steelback Brewery did not honour it’s August 1st payment of $135,000 to the taxpayers of Sault Ste. Marie. Susequently, in and around November 2007, Steelback was sold and went into Bankruptcy Protection and is now in the process of restructuirng. Being from Sault Ste. Marie and living in the shadow of Algoma Steel and St. Mary’s Paper who have been in similar Bankruptcy Protection situations we know the turmoil and stress that the uncertainty of Bankruptcy Protection can have on families. Therefore we sincerely hope that Steelback emerges successfully and goes on to be a prosperous beer company for the sake of the families that work there, and we also hope that they honour their contractual obligations to the taxpayers of Sault Ste. Marie as we have held up our end of the contract for over six months leaving their name on the building and all promotional materials and pouring only their beer where others who carried their sponsorship had pulled the plug immediately. And should Steelback emerge successfully we hope that they consider the 5178 confirmed signatures of the citizens of Sault Ste. Marie reason enough to honour the request that our petition puts forward as is their right to do, without the consent of our city council, which is one of the terms of the contract that the predecessor majority owner of Steelback agreed to.
-30-
Harper Government Gave Other Untendered Contracts To Former Conservative Mike Harris Aide
The Harper government gave at least two other untendered contracts to the former Ontario Conservative Mike Harris aide who received a $122,000 untendered speech writing contract – thereby breaking the law – that is already the subject of a complaint to the Ethics Commissioner and the Auditor General.
Under Treasury Board rules, contracts worth $25,000 or more must be opened up to competitive bidding from other potential suppliers.
But Conservative Finance Minister Jim Flaherty’s friend and supporter, Mr. MacPhie, also received at least two other untendered contracts from Industry Canada in the same period, the Ottawa Citizen has learned.
These two other currently known contracts, issued in January and May 2007, were valued at a combined total of over $36,000.
But additionally, an Ottawa Citizen analysis showed that a disproportionate percentage of contracts awarded by Flaherty’s department, Finance Canada, since the Conservatives took office were pegged between $24,000 and $24,999 – conveniently just below the cutoff for competitive bidding.
Federal Conservatives Manipulating OPP In Bribery Investigation
As previously reported on February 06, Conservative cabinet minister John Baird continues to be investigated to determine whether he engaged in political interference by attempting to influence the outcome of Ottawa’s 2006 municipal election with his “unprecedented” decision to withhold $200 million in federal funding for the city’s proposed light-rail project, while also helping to propel Conservative friend and now-mayor Larry O’Brien to office.
Ottawa mayor Larry O’Brien is now being prosecuted on charges of attempting to bribe and purported influence peddling for offering to get rival candidate Terry Kilrea a federal appointment – through Conservative minister Baird – if he dropped out of the 2006 mayoral race.
Now, the Ottawa Citizen has learned, Conservative cabinet minister John Baird’s chief of staff contacted the Ontario Provincial Police just hours before the police force “astonishingly” reversed its decision to forward the Larry O’Brien bribery case to the RCMP.
Hours after OPP detectives charged Mr. O’Brien with attempting to bribe his rival in the 2006 Ottawa municipal election, a senior police officer said the force would forward its dossier to the Mounties.
The next day, the OPP “astonishingly” issued a press release saying the exact opposite – that they had no such intention as announced by Superintendent Dave Truax, the director of the force’s anti-rackets unit, which investigated the case.
Superintendent Truax had told two different newspapers in separate interviews that his unit had planned to forward the files to the RCMP.
The Ottawa Citizen also knows what a confidential informant, Mr. X, told police about an alleged meeting between Conservative minister Baird and Mr. O’Brien, but cannot legally report it because of a publication ban.
The Conservatives continually refused to answer questions concerning the affair.
CBC-Globe Report Finds No Evidence To Back Up Mulroney Testimony
—————————————-
Former Thyssen board member calls Mulroney claim “absolute nonsense.”
Canada’s former ambassador to China says: “I just find it very strange.”
International Defence expert says: “Forget it” and “You must be joking.”
—————————————-
A joint investigation by the CBC and the Globe and Mail has failed to find any corroboration for former Conservative prime minister Brian Mulroney’s explanation of cash payments from German-Canadian businessman Karlheinz Schreiber.
During his testimony before a federal ethics committee hearing in December, Mulroney – friend, confidant and advisor to current Conservative prime minister Stephen Harper and many members of his government – said he received the cash payments as remuneration for work as an international lobbyist for Thyssen, a German manufacturer of armoured vehicles.
Mulroney told the committee that Schreiber hired him for “international representation” to lobby leaders in Russia, China and France on behalf of Thyssen, promoting the company’s armoured vehicles for national needs and for use in United Nations peacekeeping operations.
The CBC and Globe contacted officials familiar with military sales in Russia, China, France, Canada as well as the company itself in its attempts to verify the former prime minister’s claims, the CBC’s Harvey Cashore said.
“We couldn’t find any evidence to corroborate it,” Cashore said Monday.
“Everyone was scratching their heads. No one had heard about this.”
In interviews with CBC News and the Globe and Mail, a former executive and spokeswoman for Thyssen said it has no record of Mulroney doing any work for the company.
Winfried Haastert, who was on Thyssen’s board at the time, told the CBC in a telephone interview that Mulroney’s testimony of his lobbying deal with Schreiber was news to those who worked for the company.
“It’s absolute nonsense,” Haastert said. “We have not asked for this and we could simply not have imagined that.”
Anja Gerber, spokeswoman for the company told the journalists that Mulroney had “no official business with Thyssen.”
Mulroney said he lobbied Chinese officials on behalf of Thyssen during a trip to Beijing in 1993. But Fred Bild, Canada’s then ambassador to China, told CBC News he was with Mulroney on the trip, and said the former prime minister not once even mentioned to him he was lobbying for Thyssen.
“As far as we at the embassy were aware, we were not aware of anything of the sort, and we would have been, normally,” Bild said. “I just find it very strange.”
At the time of his trip, arms-trade sanctions that Mulroney’s government imposed on China in the wake of the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre were still in place, Bild said.
The former prime minister also testified he lobbied then Russian president Boris Yeltsin in 1994, amid the country’s difficult transition from the end of the Cold War, during which it was trying to sell much of its own military stock, according to defence expert Christopher Foss.
“As for selling vehicles to the Russians — forget it,” said Foss, who tracks international military vehicle sales for the British publication, Jane’s Defence Weekly.
Mulroney also told the committee he made two trips to France, in 1993 and 1994, to promote the Thyssen vehicles.
“You must be joking,” Foss said of whether France, a leading armoured-vehicle exporter, would be in the market to buy vehicles from a German company.
THE CHOICE IS CLEAR!
A Canada run by a dictatorial CON regime, with Stevie as its baron; muzzling all other elected officials, committees, independent agencies and scientists; censoring public disclosure of everything; and misleading and lying to the Canadian public.
OR
A Canada run by a democratic LIBERAL government, with Dion as its leader; listening to others; finding compromise; well you get the idea.
TAKE BACK CANADA!!!
FIGHT FOR THE BRIGHT,
NOT THE CONSERVATIVE BLIGHT!
The present administration must be removed from office as soon as is feasible, not because of its label, not because of its position on the political spectrum, but because its beloved leader refuses to recognize that there are, and should be, any restrictions on his powers.
That is what constitutes a tyrant.
I accept that whosoever occupies the prime ministership will be flawed in some way – but some flaws are less irritating than others – I’d sooner have a thief than a tyrant – the thief justs wants my money – the tyrant wants my soul.
I still feel we should be out of Kandahar and other NATO allies take their turn.
The Harper Motion:
Prefaced by—“I want to be completely open and honest with the Canadian people with regard to our mission in Afghanistan.”
http://www.cagle.com/working/080201/nease.jpg
Herewith and simultaneously, we announce our intent to continue to provide governance under the direction of Major*** Horse[POOP]ings!
Ahhhh!… But what does Rona say, in her perfect unaccented French?
NOD … NOD … NOD!
NB—Government House Leader Van Loan is promoted to the ‘field rank’ of Major*** by Special Order in Council.
LOL!
I shudder to think how long I’d have put up with it, but I know for a fact I wouldn’t have lasted.
Morning Garth,
This post left me feeling a bit uneasy. Uneasy for you because it’s all smoke and mirrors, those who spoke obviously were not being heard. Just because someone sits and listens does not mean he is hearing. Anyway, letting you all talk looks good.
You said:
At the end of it all, I knew what the leader’s actions would be, a conclusion I’d suspected earlier in the day during our strategic planning group meeting.
***************
Obviously from this statement, nothing that was said by all those liberal MPs swayed or convinced your leader one bit. He is a stubborn man.
It’s a strategy quintessentially Liberal and, most would say, essentially Canadian.
*************
Oh Garth…please don’t start that business that to ‘be Canadian is to be Liberal’. You do remember how that arrogance we had to listen to used to absolutely turn our stomachs. I also hope that I never read you saying that the Liberal Party is Canada’s natural governing party. At least not before breakfast.
It seeks compromise and middle ground. And it’s just what Conservatives will not understand, and likely pounce upon.
***********
It does? If no one is listening to the chaos…it seeks nothing. I’m sorry to be so negative, but when I start reading old Liberal catch phrases here I have to ask if the real Garth Turner is running this blog, or do they have you locked in a closet somewhere?
Leasa
What Dion hear from the larger group echoed what he has heard from the smaller one. It confirmed his approach was the consensual one. I’m sorry you are opposed to elected members being able to speak out. It’s hard for Conservatives to accept. — Garth
New Conservative Communications Director
When asked to comment about the Conservative government’s various manufactured crises, motions, deceptions, mistruths and lies, Stevie’s new communications director Maxwell Smart began each of his responses with the phrase:
“Would you believe…?”
Garth, what you are describing in the Liberal caucus is a mark of real leadership: the willingness to include people and make them part of the process. A reveiw of modern leadership literature and research on the topic confirms this fact. Real leaders encourage debate and the sharing of opinions so that the best solution can be distilled from the widest possible number of perspectives and considerations.
‘Swarm Theory’ is something that scientists have been researching for many years to better understand how group decision making happens in nature and how that can be applied to modern business.
What you have described in the Liberal caucus appears to be a good example of ’swarm theory’ in action. While some people may view this approach as a demonstration of weak or unsure leadership, the exact opposite is true.
The following is a short piece on swarm theory that readers of your blog may find of interest.
“Scientists have been studying the behaviours of animals for many years. Recently I’ve been reading some rather fascinating material on the genius of collective behaviour in various ’swarm’ animals such as bees, birds and ants. It would appear that we can improve the quality of human decision making if we follow some approaches that are found in nature.
According to some research done by Thomas Seeley of Cornell University honeybees have an uncanny ability to make good decisions, like where to move their hive when it becomes overcrowded. Seeley and a group of other researchers took the time to paint dots and apply plastic tags to over 4,000 bees so they could track them accurately. Then, the researchers set up five potential new homes for the honey bees, but only one was actually large enough to house the hive. In typical honey bee behaviour the hive sent out scouts to locate a suitable place to relocate. All five potential houses set up by the researchers were investigated by the bee scouts. Interestingly, the one that was actually large enough was the only option where a large number of scouts began to congregrate. After about 15 bees massed together at the entrance, a quorum appeared to have been reached and the scouts returned to the hive, did their ‘bee dance’ to inform the rest of the hive of their finding. The bees’ rules for decision making were quite simple:
seek a diversity of options
encourage a free competition among ideas
and use an effective mechanism to narrow choices.
Rather than rely on a decision made by ‘the boss’ the bees invariably find the best option through group dynamics. These techniques can be applied to the decision making process in any business. Leaders and managers need to get out of their habit of going into meetings with their minds made up and hearing only what they want to hear. Far too often they exercise pressure to make other people conform to their way of thinking.
The ‘bee’ approach would work much differently. The leader or manager would encourage the group to identify all of the possibilities through brainstorming and actively soliciting input from every one at the table. Then the criteria for a good decision would be identified. All ideas, regardless of their surface merit, would be discussed at length from both opportunity and challenge orientations. Finally each of the group members would cast a secret ballot on which course of action they feel represents the best solution. This approach removes the pressure and politics from decision making.
Ever wondered why the favourite horse at the track almost always wins? Having thousands of humans in one place, each trying to pick the winner, replicates swarm behaviour found in nature.
But all are group decisions good ones? Obviously not. The Bay of Pigs invasion is a great example of an extremely poor group decision. So what factors need to be present for an organization to get the best results from its collective consciousness? Groups are only wise if each individual member makes his or her own decision and acts responsibly. Poor decisions result when group members imitate each other, follow fads, or wait for someone to tell them what to do. Each member’s input must be independent and each group member must take responsibility for their own thoughts and decisions.
Many companies are now applying the lessons learned from swarm theory to their businesses. For example, the Google search engine uses a sophisticated counting function to identify which web sites have the most links to them and lists them first when you do a search, since the links count as ‘votes’.
By examining ant behaviour computer programmers were able to develop software that considers every possible routing to factories and end-user customers, factoring in weather conditions and local pricing to determine the best routing and purchasing options, saving companies like American Air Liquid big dollars. Southwest Airlines tested an ant-based model to improve service at Sky Harbour International Airport in Phoenix by having airplanes act like ants remembering how long it took to use various gates in the past and always searching for the best gate.
Think about the powerful simplicity of how swarm theory works in nature. Simple creatures following simple rules, with each creature acts on local information. No creature telling another what to do, but each creature always working for the best outcome for the group. Imagine what that could do for your company’s performance.”
– Thomas Stirr
The fact that there is a process within the Liberal caucus for a free and open debate with elected MPs is reassuring. Consensus is difficult on this issue, I’m sure. However, it is obvious that the majority of Canadians do not want to continue with this war as it is now being fought. Many of us would like our soldiers to come home now. I know this won’t happen, and I know some people on here, and in parliament, think this is naive. However, after reading Geoffrey L.’s post, perhaps there is hope, after all. We usually follow in America’s footsteps. Let’s hope they change direction on the world stage, so we can.
Answer to Afghanistan question more complex than adding troops
Feb 12, 2008 04:30 AM
James Travers
Ottawa
Just weeks ago, John Manley’s report was part of the Afghanistan solution. Now it’s part of the problem. Instead of informing a complex debate, its pivotal recommendation is being used to force a simplistic political choice and perhaps a federal election.
To the beat of campaign drums, Stephen Harper is demanding a yes-or-no answer to a public policy question Manley panellist and former top mandarin Paul Tellier calls the most difficult in memory. Clever as ever, the Prime Minister is remanufacturing Manley’s minimum condition for continuing the Kandahar mission into a vital component for Afghanistan success.
Adding 1,000 NATO troops and more air support won’t fix what’s wrong with this attempted rescue of a failing state. As Manley found and studies warn, unco-ordinated strategies countering the insurgency, corruption and the booming opium business aren’t working and demand hurried reconsideration.
http://www.thestar.com/columnists/article/302710
The choice is clear – A consensus based inclusive team style of governance under Dion or a leader focused all power to the few and the manipulation of the many under Harper.
Thanks Garth for making my choice easy –
I stand for Canada under Dion as he represents my democratic values not a dictatorial leader under Harper who tells me what I can or should stand for within his Canada.
I didn’t. Like my Harper-hugging brother pointed out to me during a rare interlude of political comradery, Canadians have a long tradition of holding our noses and sending our troops where they’re needed.
and our troops have a long tradition of doing the best they can and not equating Canada with Ottawa.
If we really believe in ourselves, all the ways that Afghanistan is wrong at present is all the more reason for Canada to maintain a presence and make our best effort to do what’s right.
Speaking of which, anyone hear anything out of the PMO condemning that journalist’s death sentence yet? Commons doesn’t cut it.
Mind you, after six years you’d think the government of the day would be able to come up with a little more finely tuned stated policy than “over there”.
Harper claims to stand up for Canadians who work hard, pay their taxes and live by the rules – so when is Harper going to play by the rules – or, does he have a different standard for himself.
He promised Canadians that it would be safe to elect him because the senate would keep him in line – now he’s breaking the rules of Canada’s constitution by bullying them, stepping over the line – RULE – you don’t interfere with the other House. They don’t do it in the US and they don’t do it in Britain or any other democratic country – and it makes no difference if the Senate is elected or non-elected.
Harper is a dictator!
Does it matter that you stand as a matter of respect when the Prime Minister enters, why is this even news? I have to stand when a judge enters or leaves the court room whether I am Plaintiff or Defendant, I assumed it to be long standing tradition. Dion is not and likely will never be a PM unless the Conservatives get nuked. By the tone of Garth’s message it is clear the Liberal’s are not united behind Dion as to the course of action on Afghanistan, let it be a free vote.
Leasa is showing a bit of “freedom” envy. She only wishes the Con M.P.’s were able to take a tiny step without first asking ‘Mother, ( Stevie) May I?”
Garth, please post the wording of the Liberal amendment to the Afghan motion on you blog as soon as you can do so in order that we all may study it objectively. Thanks
Thanks Garth for your truthful words, as mentioned, the fruits of this blog have served you well and those who read here must be pleased. I have of course spoken many times on both NATO’s lack of focus and the no win history of any outside force to occupy Afghanistan under any condition. Afghans must sort this out within themselves as did Canada and the US. One short phrase that always appears in your voice and it holds my attention…Stephane Dion Listens” reading to-days news on the outcome of the debate I see common ground and agree. King Steve and his court will decide their own fate, and then Canadians can decide the countries fate……..perhaps it is just that simple. Thanks again, and thanks to all who take the time post here and blogs. the pen is indeed mightier than the sword.
When Harper is entering a room for his caucus meetings – he’s entering a room of his “collegues”. There’s a major difference to standing up for a judge.
I shudder to think how long I’d have put up with it, but I know for a fact I wouldn’t have lasted.
By Brian Dondo on 02.12.08 6:47 am
There are many qualified and capable individuals that might get involved in the political process if this “honoring thy master” was not part of the trappings.
Does it matter that you stand as a matter of respect when the Prime Minister enters, why is this even news? I have to stand when a judge enters or leaves the court room whether I am Plaintiff or Defendant, I assumed it to be long standing tradition.
…
By Duane W on 02.12.08 8:20 am
I’d take it easy on that “holding court” analogy if I were you. Members of Parliament rise for the Crown and its representives (usually ambiguously represented by the Speaker and a stick and probably for good reason).
but you’re right. It probably isn’t news that behind the scenes the government of the day serves two masters.
Germany says role in north precludes assisting Canadians
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=6cdb1112-cc54-4786-acd2-91fa5f625a98&k=73088
To me, at least, Germany’s NO means NO!
Big, troublesome, events are happening on the Pakistan side of the border. The entire area is now de-stabilised.
NB—Government House Leader Van Loan is promoted to the ‘field rank’ of Major*** by Special Order in Council.
By PYOTR PETROBITCH on 02.12.08 6:14 am
HEY! I served with him. Major Screwup, or was it Major PIA?
No, now I remember it was Major Waste! He replaced Major Nuisance (who was soon promoted to General Nuisance following his brief stint as a Colonel at KFC Chickenshit HQ), following the untimely demise of Major Numbnuts.
Well Pilgrim, this is the way I see it. To date.
Snake charmers.
The good caucus may have heard the message, but may well not have listened.
This issue isn’t about strategizing for a majority government, or Dion’s political survival. This is a case where to simply do the right thing, would afford far more voter loyalty.
Tell the guys on the Mulroney/Shrieber show that their pension should be secure. It should take that long just to answer the letters from Big M’s lawyers.
Here is the problem this voter has. Unless its in plain words, and gives a clear commitment, I don’t trust any of you folks to stick to an inferred agenda. Ya just simply change your mind to often or make up a flimsy excuse. Especially if you have a majority.
Another pesky quote;
Facts are stupid things.
Ronald Reagan
Oh, and about that Stephen Harper entrance and exit stuff. Pffft. “All the world’s a stage, And all the men and women merely players: They have their exits and their entrances”
Decisiveness.
If Dion doesn’t line up his duckies here, he is going to look like a combination of Chamberlain AND De Gaulle. Wiffle waffle and babbling Macaw.
Considering Harper’s order of Battle, does it appear he wants to spin an election campaign based on Afghanistan?
Moreover, is it that he understands the political animal so well, that he’s betting on the Libs to go for their best opportunity to be the ones handing out the contracts? Again. I don’t buy into the theory that he is trying to be the engineer of his own train wreck.
These guys would run to be elected Captain of a sinking Bismarck so long as they could still tax the people from a life raft. They are just like the Ferengi from Star Trek, they think about everything in the perspective of how many Bars of Latinum. No profit in being in Opposition. No income averaging either.
I can kowtow in form as well as the next guy. Actually, I do it with pride on a regular basis for recreational purposes but it sure as hell isn’t to some stuffed shirt on a high horse who gets off on it.
Recently the Dutch parliament hammered out a compromise on their own Afghanistan mission which resulted in them staying until late 2010, but with a set withdrawal then, and combining security and development. The Dutch government said it was important to reach a multi-party concensus on such an important issue which involved their troops, as to do otherwise would negatively affect troop morale. In the end even the far right and the socialist party, as well as the center, supporter it.
Garth,
Thank you for the update on the Caucus meeting. I, for one, feel like I am a part of the process. Something I have not felt since Harper became PM.
I used to trust our government, and was quite joyful in that feeling. Since Harper I have felt like we have been under Bush.
That is not a feeling I like having. Total distrust and knowing from long experience where such a road leads.
You are, in effect, my surrogate MP, because I cannot communicate with Two-Tier Tony Clement. He ‘tells’ the constituents what we are to think, whereas, you listen and carry our often lonely voice to the HoC. I will not even waste my time with TTTC.
Thank you.
Garth, as always we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
I voted no, pull the troops. Afghanistan and Iraq are no-winners.
Our international landscape changed with these words three words…”war on terror”
and we are walking in the footsteps of the US.
As Linda McQuaig has stated in this Feb 5th Toronto Star article
“The notion of the Afghan mission as a moral, legal war pervades the Manley report. Contrasting it to the invasion of Iraq,
Manley portrays the intervention in Afghanistan as a law-abiding, UN-authorized venture.
But Boyle says that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were both illegal under international law,
in that neither received Security Council approval.
The Manley report implies that the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was endorsed by the Security Council,
but Boyle notes that the Security Council resolution cited by Manley in no way authorized military action.
Rather, it called for the perpetrators of 9/11 to be brought to justice –
suggesting they be dealt with as criminals through extradition and the judicial system, not war.
After invading Afghanistan and toppling the government, Washington won UN authorization
for the new government it installed, and for its ongoing intervention through NATO.
As a result, the U.S. presence in Afghanistan – like the one in Iraq –
now has “a veneer of UN authority,” notes Osgoode Hall law professor Michael Mandel.”
CBC recently reran this documentary on the US Military Industrial complex, “Why We Fight”
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/whywefight.html
The blowback on this is that now we invade, topple and send nations into turmoil with one hand
while with the other mitigate our destruction with rebuilding efforts. Great humanitarians eh?
Is this real peacekeeping?
What this does is divert taxpayer monies required for our own social infrastructure and ballons them
into long term foreign aid. The collary effect is that the existing humanitarian organizations already
in place have more difficult work to do, only now along side the invaders.
Both the phrase “War on Terrorism” and the policies it denotes are a source of ongoing controversy,
as critics argue they have been used to justify unilateral preemptive war, perpetual war,
human rights abuses, and other violations of international law.
Canada needs to think long and hard on it’s foreign policy going forward and detach from the US insanity.
When I hear the words “canadian Peacekeepers” I want to hold my head up with pride, not down in shame.
By Bill-Muskoka on 02.12.08 9:40 am
Which demands yet another promotion.
Major CONundrum.
There are many qualified and capable individuals that might get involved in the political process if this “honoring thy master” was not part of the trappings.
By Doug on 02.12.08 9:11 am
Harper has to much of Dark Side of the Farce flowing through him. He thinks he is Darth Vaguer!
Remarks at Foreign Press Association in London
http://www.state.gov/p/us/rm/2008/100673.htm
“I would just use Canada as an example.
Canada has suffered casualties, the highest rate of casualties in the alliance of any country, in Kandahar province. Canada is in the most significant military altercation since the Korean War. Canada has made an enormous contribution and sacrifice and for Canada to do all that, and not to have the support of every country in the alliance to come and help with resupply, with helicopters, with combat troops, is not a recipe for success. And so I think you do need to tend to both the civilian side as well as the military side, and Afghanistan is a country in which we have to do both well, and NATO countries have to be involved in both and not just in one of them, and that was a central message we are trying to send and we were trying to send it at the Wehrkunde conference over the weekend.”
France’s proposed “surge” as a means of providing support for Canadian efforts, appears to be stalled, at least for now, according to the LA Times. Am still trying to track the supporting URL.
By Greg on 02.12.08 9:59 am
LMAO! Yes, good point!
French troop surge to aid our soldiers put on hold
Spectator—LA Times—Tues., Feb. 12, 2008
http://www.thespec.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/323629
[London—Feb 12, 2008] Ottawa’s quest for help in Afghanistan continues today amid mixed messages from France on the heft of assistance it may bring to Canadian troops bogged down in Kandahar province.
Expectations of a French troop surge that would comprise a major part of the 1,000 soldiers Canada requires as a precondition for extending its combat role in the NATO-led mission were dampened on two fronts.
In Paris, foreign ministry officials insisted the matter was still under review and categorically denied media reports of a decision to send as many 700 soldiers to fight alongside Canadian troops.
Officials in Paris insisted the direction of French assistance would not be disclosed until it is announced by President Nicolas Sarkozy at the NATO Summit in Bucharest scheduled for early April.
By PYOTR PETROBITCH on 02.12.08 10:19 am
Oh yeah! We KNOW we can always count on the French to keep their word! Sure, Absolutely, Well maybe?
Oh yeah! We KNOW we can always count on the French to keep their word! Sure, Absolutely, Well maybe?
By Bill-Muskoka on 02.12.08 10:26 am
I keep having this recurring dream, Bill.
It’s a vision of a TALL GUY, ~7ft. 14ins., walking alone down the Champs-Elysées, waving to any and all who would reciprocate, [thousands did!] acknowledging that NONE OF IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED, HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR HIM ALONE!
I believe the same man was pretty much insistent THE WINSTON and General Eisenhower were to curtsy when his presence became known. NATO had to withdraw all its French bases later as well.
Kinda makes you feel Spesshul, like the Church Lady, don’t it!
It would be nice of Monsieur Dion would listen to the leaders of the other political parties in the way that he listens to his own caucus. Surely the views are no more diverse among the various leaders of other parties than they are within the Liberal caucus itself.
Within his own party, he is willing to coompromise, but not with other party leaders.
All that these “amendments” will do is to bring confusion into an already difficult situation. The other party leaders have a clear position, but not so Monsieur Dion.
Let’s have a vote on either finishing the job in a way that the hands of our soldiers are not tied, or, as John Manley recommended (and Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe would agree), get out of Afghanistan altogether NOW.
This pussyfooting around with the serious nature of the conflict with phony amendments only obfuscate and bring confusion and chaos where clarity and forthrightness is needed.
We need leadership, not obfuscation and confusion at a time like this.
Let me get this straight. Harper has everyone stand when he enters the room? Why? WHo does he think he is? HRH?
“Our position is that in 2011 the mission is over,” Monsieur Dion told reporters.
This is a political rather than a principled position. It is in no way connected to any particular goal, objective or principle for which the former Liberal government got us into this in the first place.
There are no benchmarks, no principles, but simply an arbitrary date unrelated to any goal or objective.
It’s a long road to freedom. Freedom for all is the goal. If Monsieur Dion would stop short of that goal, of what purpose will our contribution have been to date.
Thank God we did not have leadership like that in Winston Churchill in the darkest days of the Second World War.
We need fewer Neville Chamberlains and more Winston Churchills when it comes to surrendering to tyranny.
There are those who believe that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, and there are those for whom any sacrifice is too great.
How can you defeat an enemy who thinks nothing of dying in the cause of the expansionist aims of terrorism unless sacrifices are made to defend liberty and freedom?
A wimpy response is our enemy, not our friend.
In WW2, we fought an enemy threatening our allies and world domination, until the fighting was over. In Afghanistan we are part of a 37-nation NATO force which agreed to rotate troops in order to assist in stabilizing an unstable nation. Canada has already done more than its share. This is not WW2. Cut the hyperbole. — Garth
I’m sorry you are opposed to elected members being able to speak out. It’s hard for Conservatives to accept. — Garth
Dear Garth, at the risk of getting into a tiff with you, I have to say; if the Liberal MPs are so very, very free why can’t you tell us what was said in caucus? Why is it when some of your members leak caucus happenings to the press they do so anonymously? Because, unless your leader says you can, you can’t. You are no more ‘free’ than any MP from any party.
Garth, I may not be the brightest, but I’m not totally ignorant either. If you were to post here on this blog something which went entirely against your leader…you’d be sitting as an indie tomorrow. Right?
Leasa
Leasa, Give it up. — Garth
By Jim Trechek on 02.12.08 10:52 am
Oh good grief, Jim. Mr. Harper has never told anyone at any time that they had to stand when he enters a room. If they do so, it’s of their own volition, maybe they are just proud of the guy.
Ask Garth if when he was in that party if Mr. Harper told him he had to stand.
Leasa
By Ike on 02.12.08 10:45 am
I haven’t seen so much WAVERING, since John Tory saw fit to introduce faith-based schools to his Ontario agenda.
Ere we reach the shining W-A-A-AVERRR,
Lay we every burden down;
Grace MORE VOTES will deliver,
And provide a MAJORITY and CROWN.
Hi, I’m BILL MURDOCH, and I’m Waaaveerrrrring.
Me too, says Ted Chudleigh!
And then, a resounding chorus of WAAAVVVEERRRERS!
I’m not sending my children or any other children into that [??ALLIANCE??] Ike!
Ike on 02.12.08 10:45 am,
It is not Dion that is the problem but Harper. Harper, and his supporters, believes that compromise shows weakness. Under that principle, in order to “sell” Harper as a strong leader, compromise and consensus must be avoided at all costs. That creates a major problem when trying to negotiate with opposing parties.
The question is whether Harper will agree to compromise or will he stick to the principle that to compromise shows weakness.
By Leasa on 02.12.08 11:02 am
We leave you in your devotion to the most insignificant minutiae totally irrelevant to political events, Leasa.
BTW, remind us what the BAIT was, when Harper’s Bizarre eased you over the side?
Kinda makes you feel Spesshul, like the Church Lady, don’t it!
By PYOTR PETROBITCH on 02.12.08 10:37 am
Oui mon ami! Il doit être vrai, parce qu’il l’a dit!
The internets I browse have copies of something called the Afghanistan Compact on them.
Just for Leasa (Who I know will appreciate the irony of this! LOL)
A man owned a small farm in Iowa. The Iowa State Wage & Hour Department claimed he was not paying proper wages to his help and sent an agent out to interview him.
‘I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them,’ demanded the agent.
‘Well,’ replied the farmer, ‘there’s my farm hand who’s been with me for 3 years. I pay him $200 a week plus free room and board.
The cook has been here for 18 months, and I pay her $150 per week plus free room and board.
Then there’s the half-wit who works about 18 hours every day and
does about 90% of all the work around here. He makes about $10 per week,
pays his own room and board, and I buy him a bottle of bourbon every Saturday night. He also sleeps with my wife occasionally.’ ‘
That’s the guy I want to talk to — the half-wit,’ says the agent.
‘That would be me,’ replied the farmer
In WW2, we fought an enemy threatening our allies and world domination, until the fighting was over. In Afghanistan we are part of a 37-nation NATO force which agreed to rotate troops in order to assist in stabilizing an unstable nation. Canada has already done more than its share. This is not WW2. Cut the hyperbole. — Garth
AMEN! Too many people are still seeing every military engagement with through the memories of WWII.
WWII is OVER, has been for more than a half a century.
Korea was NOT WWII!
The Six Day War of Israel was NOT WWII
Viet Nam was NOT WWII
Grenada was not WWII (Hell, it wasn’t even a war. We had more action in Combat training than happened there.
The Falklands was NOT WWII
Desert Storm was NOT WII
Operation Iraqi Freedom (Freedumb) was NOT WWII
and for darn sure neither Iraq or Afghanistan are like WWII
However, if the War Mongers keep up their stupidity, especially Bush’s lust for another war with Iran, we will have WWIII.
Sometimes I think that is the goal?
Let me get this straight. Harper has everyone stand when he enters the room? Why? WHo does he think he is? HRH?
By Jim Trechek on 02.12.08 10:52 am
More than likely, they stand trying to decide whether to stay or RUN!
Even the most loyal, brain dead moron has a sense of survival, and facing Harper’s Raging Hate (HRH) would motivate even a Village Idiot on drugs to seek shelter.
‘That would be me,’ replied the farmer
By Bill-Muskoka on 02.12.08 11:20 am
Quite obviously HE EARNED HIS WAY!
How can you defeat an enemy who thinks nothing of dying in the cause of the expansionist aims of terrorism unless sacrifices are made to defend liberty and freedom?
A wimpy response is our enemy, not our friend.
By Ike on 02.12.08 10:59 am
Ike, is that really you? You are the paragon of love, and tolerance, political correctness, and soul soothing metaphors.
Garth,
I am, not going to read the comments of others before I write this.
If all you say is true,(I read EVERYTHING with a large grain of salt these days)then we are going to beat the hell out of PMSH.
Your description of the caucus meeting sounds like the a description of a TRUE TEAM leader in action.
GO M. Dion!
Garth,
Does anyone in Ottawa know the difference between the roles of: a military, a policing agency, and a humanitarian organization? Don’t ask a military to do either of the others – it’s not what they are trained to do nor is it something they should be doing. The military is utilized because they are cheap: there is no overtime; they will sleep almost anywhere; and they can’t complain about it. Get real! If our mission is to capacity build this nation get the military out and the “capacity builders” in. If you want “security guards”, bring in the police – and get out your cheque book!
By PYOTR PETROBITCH on 02.12.08 10:19 am
Oh yeah! We KNOW we can always count on the French to keep their word! Sure, Absolutely, Well maybe?
By Bill-Muskoka on 02.12.08 10:26 am
At least the French stood up for their farmers and said NO to GMO foods. Even the cows won’t eat it. Look what Stevie is doing in our name!
In our name, the Harper government is telling people in Europe that they do not have the right to refuse genetically modified (GM) foods.
Canada has threatened the EU with WTO trade sanctions, if it does not cave in by February 11, 2008 and approve GM products, even though EU citizens do not want this (see article below).
Meanwhile, 33 Irish and British politicians “ including the former UK Environment Minister Michael Meacher MP…have denounced the activities of a Canadian Government agent, who has attempted to sabotage Ireland’s policy to keep the island of Ireland free of genetically modified crops”.
“This covert interference by the Government of Canada is an affront to Irish and UK sovereignty and to the Precautionary Principle which is a cornerstone of EU policy on GM food and farming,” says Kathy Sinnott, Member of the European Parliament. “I am calling on the European Parliament to investigate this scandal, as we have done regarding the CIA’s violation of European airspace for illegal torture flights. We need a full investigation into the extent of covert influence by foreign governments and corporations on the GM policies and decisions of the Commission, EU member states, and their regulatory bodies.” See “CANADA DIRTY TRICKS EXPOSED IN WTO DISPUTE ON GMOs”.
And if you haven’t already done so, please send a letter to Prime Minister Harper, asking that he support a ban on Terminator technology, which causes seeds to become sterile after one harvest.
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/01/28/FoodFight/
Now what is the Liberal position on THAT?
We might as well move on, because there is going to be a political compromise the majority of Canadians don’t want anyway. As if we really have any say.
Your description of the caucus meeting sounds like the a description of a TRUE TEAM leader in action.
GO M. Dion!
By A.R.Wainwright on 02.12.08 11:49 am
My experience as well. The other ‘leaders’ we let them lead. In ‘Nam we made sure the sassy new Nuggets (2nd Lieutenants) took the point and ‘led’ the Grunts in country.
We knew they knew it all so we never bothered to mention that their life expectancies was only 16 minutes. They got their glory, and we got them out of the way by their own arrogance.
Funny how reality can work so well, eh?
By Alan – Ontario on 02.12.08 12:15 pm
Hear! Hear! Well stated. That would the RCMP!
Bill Muskoka, I personally live by the law of love. At the same time, I believe that the police and the military have a role to play in restraining the lawless, the criminal, and those who do not respect the rule of law in regarding the rights of others.
I know full well that there is no ultimate military solution in Afghanistan, or anywhere else for that matter. Wars do not end wars.
Neither do prisons rehabilitate prisoners. Yet they are necessary for the protection of society.
Wars do not end wars, and yet there is such a thing as a just war to curb tyranny in the short term so that life is liveable for all lovers of freedom who have a responsibility to further the work of true reconciliation rather than a temporary truce.
There is no contradiction to saying that governments have a role to play in the protection of society with a military and a police force, without saying that they are going to resolve wars and conflicts by force.
Neither should we submit to tyranny which must be restrained sufficiently for a different kind of ministry, something that no human government is capable of by external means alone, to effect healing.
Thank you for your comments Bill.
By Ike on 02.12.08 12:55 pm
The only time war is necessary is in true defense of one’s homeland, our loved ones. That means the enemy is on OUR soil, not a ‘maybe’ threat somewhere on this planet.
It is pretty easy to tell justifiable war using a map. If it’s your country, then go for it whole heartedly. If it’s another’s country, then don’t.
If it is a friend in need, and on that friend’s soil, then aide and assist them. If it is on a make believe enemy’s soil, then stay out of it.
That was a common sense position that saved many lives in the past.
When some Imperialistic nation tries to invade another nation for their wealth and resources, that Imperialistic nation is the AGGRESSOR!
Compare the actions of Germany in WWII and the U.S. today. See the parallels? I certainly do.
Also reflect on Japan’s invasion of China during WWII. Again, an Imperial Force attempting to take resources that were not their’s to take.
Japan’s biggest mistake was attacking Pearl Harbour. Had they not done that they would have probably won. In the end they did anyway.
Let us not forget their people were starving, because they ahd too many people on their islands. Rather than use intelligent approaches like asking for aide (maybe they did, but I don’t recall at the moment), they were like fleas attacking a Rottweiller.
Little Japan versus Mainland China? Yes, and the Chinese were a peaceful people at that time.
Last time I checked it was called national sovereignty and borders?
Personally I despise war, but follow the Marine Corps philosophy of ‘Peace if at all possible. But, once the enemy is engaged they have one of two choices. Unconditional surrender or annihilation!’
Hence the name Devil Dogs earned by the Marines in both WWII Theaters. Anything less is merely a schoolyard pissing contest that wastes innocent lives.
That is how real war is fought. Swift, sure, and no maybes. You hit the enemy with the Full Power and destroy them and their leaders will to continue. That is what the military’s real job is.
But then that before we all came so politically correct and wonderful, eh? LOL
Here is an example of childish postering, again, ‘They play their deadly games!’ (Quote from Hunt For Red October by Sean Connery as Captain Rameus!’
U.S. navy intercepts Russian bombers flying near ships
This is what Dubya’s War Mind has brought back upon the world again. DAMN HIM! I spent my entire life under the threat of nuclear war and some maniac pushing a button. I will not tolerate my children and grandchildren living under that horror.
“If it’s your country, then go for it whole heartedly. If it’s another’s country, then don’t.” –Bill Muskoka.
It wasn’t our country that was attacked in World War I and II, but we stood with our Allies, and with fellow human beings, recognizing that our freedom is inseparably connected with all human beings.
Do you believe in standing up only for your fellow citizens, or for your fellow human beings? Do you believe in universal human rights, or in the rights of one nation to defend itself only?
We need to stand up for one another, as the NATO Alliance so clearly states, that “an attack against one is an attack against all.”
United we stand, and divided we stand within the human family.
I am surprized at your nationalistic tone. Suppose we had taken that attitude towards Poland and France 60 years ago? Suppose that England had taken that approach?
Fascism knows no borders, no boundaries, and neither should freedom. We were created to be free and equal, and those are inalienable rights of ALL human beings. You cannot selfishly limit it to your own nation as if you could live in isolation from others. That cannot be done in the real world.
I believe in the human family, and that we are brothers with all who love freedom.
Life without freedom for any of our fellow human beings is no life at all, and all life is interconnected and interdependent. No man, and no nation, is an island unto itself.
This is how it works in the real world.
Bill, your analogies fall short, as the aims of the Taliban in their Constitution are expansionist and global, not local and regional only.
All fascist parties want to rule the world, and this is the most dangerous type of fundamentalism that we are all at war with. How can you declare a truce with fundamentalism? The Taliban are the epitomy of fundamentalism of the most oppressive variety.
I am beginning to wonder about your position, especially since you have used Mohammed as an example of a role model in social reform. Huh?
A just war is a defensive war against fascist forces in the world throughout history, and that are still at work today, in the interests of respecting a society where there is freedom of choice for all.
In these fundamentalistic countries, there may be freedom of speech, but there is certainly no freedom AFTER the speech. So we must stand together, and understand together.
To take your logic to its logical, or “illogicial” conclusion, we should not stand up for the freedoms of those who are oppressed or downtrodden in other countries, only for those in our own country.
Whatever happened to the interconnectedness of all living things?
We are our brother’s keeper, n’est pas?
By Bill-Muskoka on 02.12.08 11:20 am
HA HA HA yes Bill, I’ve read this one several times. After a farmer finishes laughing at this one, the tears become real. L
Leasa, Give it up. — Garth
Some days I’m tempted to do just that. Leasa
By Ike on 02.12.08 2:43 pm
Note, that the Germans attacked our allies on their home soil. That is why it was called a World War.
The Nazis were rampaging across not only Europe but Africa as well.
All the other points you raise are contraindicated by the Monroe Doctrine, which had it been ratified by the individual States (and almost was BTW) would have prevented the modern day imperialistic excursions by the U.S.. (The U.S. Congress did pass it), and it was under that philosophy that FDR withheld getting the U.S. involved in WWII in Europe. Finally, after the request of Britain, he acquiesed, and at great cost to America.
America did not win’ WWII, the Allied forces won WWII! It was a moment of real greatness as humanitarians as well. The difference is they went after the enemy wherever he was, and they were everywhere. They fought to WIN!
What happened after WWII? The Brits and Yanks took the Jews who were still unwanted by the Europeans, basically stole the land from the Palestinian people, and created the next World War battle ground…the Middle East. They never learn. They all had good intentions, but you cannot take from one and give it to another without their freewill concent. The losing side will NEVER forget!
Most of the problems between the U.S. and al Qaeda are due solely to the U.S. position of unquestioned support of Zionism in Israel. Even the Israelis know this is wrong, but they keep getting fantical leaders, who keep getting that nice $30 BILLION in foreign aide from America.
Then Americans are so shocked when the poor and deprived join together in Jihad against them? Are the Americans NUTS? Yes, and stupid as a rock. You either treat people equally or you make enemies. Those enemies will eventually attack you because you threaten their right to life and happiness.
Let us not forget that the real purpose of Afghanistan was to track down and get Osama Bin Laden, not to rescue the Afghanistan people from the Taliban, or themselves.
But like all such exercises in might, it got expanded, and justified by the politicians.
Sorry, but, this old Marine remembers a thing called Mission Objective. That means you go on the mission for a pre-defined purpose, there are ROE’s set, and abided by. Then the mission is OVER!
Afghanistan remains Canada’s Viet Nam. How come we were smart enough to avoid ‘Nam (albeit 150 canadians did die in Viet Nam fighting as American soldiers), but now find ourselves in the same predicament?
People are not set free by war, rather they are enslaved by it. The Afghan people need to learn to stop being afraid, and standup for their rights against the Taliban. They have divided and conquered their own future, and need to stop. Want to be free? Then stop empowering your oppressors.
What we are currently doing, and I base my opinion on the first hand reports from my friend who is a very seasoned and experienced CF member (Bosnia, Rawanda, The Gaza Strip), and was THERE, is we are doing the fighting for them. That is not our job, nor something we will accomplish with victory.
Trying to teach the Afghan’s tactics is like pulling crocodile teeth. They all want to run into the battle rather than fight as a unit. The government fails to pay them, so they end up with a weapon, but sell the ammo (if they even get it) to buy food for their families to eat. In effect, we are supplying the Taliban via the Afghan people. What are we NUTS?
We are not going to overcome generations of hate and fear by training a few of them in the use of weapons. We need to change their entire thought process from ‘I’ to ‘Us’. There is the problem. it goes right back to Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, and no matter what Generals or Politicians think, that principle cannot be changed.
The current approach is the same as you or I trying to cure someone’s alcoholism or drug addiction by taking it for them.
I, too, am a firm believer in helping my fellow human beings, and have all my life. I am also wise enough to know where my responsibilities end and their’s begin. No emotions involved. Just logical reality.
The mission is bogus as it was stated and has now evolved.
Yes, we should be first and foremost concerned with our own nation’s people and their problems. Not spending inordinate sums of money chasing goblins for others.
That entire philosophy reminds me of a man I knew in church. He was always broke, his family was suffering from financial, nutritional, and lack of basic needs, yet he gave 10% of his pay to the church. His reason was it was stated in Bible in the Book of Hosea.
Some would say that was admirable, and a matter of faith. I counseled him that his first and foremost duty was to his family and himslef. God did not need his money, they did! they needed to be strong to get stronger, so they could actually be of service to God.
There is the difference between foolish faith and real faith. recall the story of Jonah. he simply did not believe he could make a difference for the people of Ninevah. He though tit was ll on his shoulders. God told him ‘What is with you? I have 7,000 other faithful servants. Each does their part as best they can. But not you! No, you have to have the master plan all laid out, rather than just doing the simple task I asked you to do!
Another prime example, the one I shall never forget, was a homeless man that came forward to accept Jesus. He was drunk, stunk, and was bleeding from being stabbed.
The Deacons took him to counselling to ‘pray with him’ about Jesus. They called me because I ran a program for the families of substence abusers. I talked to him for maybe thirty seconds, assessed the situation as critical, called 911, got him to hospital, and trusted that God would handle the details. God did perfectly, because I did my part correctly. I didn’t pray with him, I took action that was imminently needed. I knew prayer and genuine thankfulness, as well as a real lesson right from God’s own hand, would come, but first his life had to be saved, before we worried about his soul.
Three months later I went on visitation, and one of my cards was for someone I did not recognize at a rehab centre. I walked in, asked the staff to please let them know I was there to see so and so.
The same man walked around the corner, stopped dead in his tracks and stared at me. He looked at me through then clear shining brigh eyes and said ‘I know you! You’re the man that saved my life!’
I still get tears in my eyes whenever I recall that most precious of moments. I served God that day in a way I could never have guessed would be my deepest honour to do.
That is what real ‘community is about.’ A total stranger who we help, not for any reason other than it is the right thing to do.
The moral is that I merely acted as I would for anyone, but is was he who took that first step and in fact, saved his own life and future by seeking help.
I later taught many a Bible Study lesson on ‘Being available’ for service to God.
If each person did that one simple thing, we would eliminate 90% of the world’s problems in a very short time.
It is taking time from yourself and giving it to others. It is not doing for them what they must do for themselves. Just be available, and wise enough and humble enough to know you are but a small part of God’s forces on earth.
Use every bit of knowledge and wisdom you possess, but never be a follower when a leader is needed.
Like the old Baptist saying goes ‘They are so heavenly minded they are of no Earthly good!’
Hope that helps you to see my position and the reasons for it more clearly?
BTW, I, again, urge you to read Jim Wallis’ book ‘The Awakening”. You will find, as I have reading through it, that you are far from being alone in your views. He has also done a very rare thing…offered wise solutions that will deal with the cause, instead of the symptoms.
Have a good day mon ami!
Garth … re your recent caucus meeting on Afghanisatan:
I watched and listened closely. Yes, I spoke too. Some of what I heard was profound. Some of it was politically naïve. Some very moving. Some dangerous.
……………………………..
Could you elaborate on the “dangerous” opinions??
Perhaps not because it is caucus confidentiality, but let me hazard a guess.
Was it the “extremist element” within the Liberal party, the one that campaigned against Bob Rae because his wife was Jewish?
Did they want Canadian troops out of Afghanistan immediately to allow the Taliban free reign in Kandahar??
“Most of the problems between the U.S. and al Qaeda are due solely to the U.S. position of unquestioned support of Zionism in Israel.Bill Muskoka.
The U.S. is the one country that is pushing for a two-state solution in Palestine, with the co-operation of Palestinian leader Abbas as well as Israeli PM Olmert.
So what do you want the U.S. to do, to impose a one-state solution, or to deny Israel’s right to even exist as a nation-state?
In no way would Abbas or the Palestinian people even look to a pure Zionist to facilitate negotiations if the U. S. did not believe in a two-state solution.
“Afghanistan remains Canada’s Viet Nam. ” –Bill Muskoka.
And Viet Nam is a poor example, because there is no freedom in South Viet Nam today. I have personally met a fine South Vietnamese couple who fear for their lives every time that they re-enter their country, because there is not freedom of thought, expression or of the press in their country.
So Viet Name is a story of capitulation to tyranny, something that you seem to want Canada to do in Afghanistan.
I don’t buy it.
By Harry S on 02.12.08 4:11 pm
Do you sell smut for a living too?
So Viet Name is a story of capitulation to tyranny, something that you seem to want Canada to do in Afghanistan.
I don’t buy it.
By Ike on 02.12.08 5:54 pm
You just don’t get Vietnam my man. It wasn’t about freedom, for the U.S.
Let me try to explain it this way. In the woods the Bear scratches the outer most points of his territory so that other Bears know this place belongs to another Bear. Dogs piss on the corners of their lot, so other dogs know this place belongs to another dog.
It was a high stakes warning shot. So was Korea, kind of, except it was the predecessor and more of a testing ground. Speaking of Korea, if we were so damn interested in saving the world’s people from misery, why didn’t we keep grinding on the North Koreans?
Answer; Legions of Chinese. Endless Legions, and the world was gut sick of war and burying their Son’s. Regardless of the rhetoric they were fed.
Ike, your posts are somewhat rambling. Moreso than mine. They are also long and lack consistency. I’m beginning to wonder if you are one person or two, or??
Are you a Harry nom de plume?
I only read bits and pieces of them, for the above reasons. Some seem to have some worth. Correct me if I am wrong. I’m always up to a worthwhile discussion with a lucid soul.
Here’s the thing though, at the end of the day it doesn’t matter what you think. It doesn’t matter what I think.
The Feudal Lords will continue to do what they have always done. Except now, they trade places via a rigged game of nominating conventions and an illusion of democracy. In days of old, they donned their Armor, drew their swords and actually killed one another.
They progressed beyond that long ago. The only constant that remains, is as Steve Earl so eloquently said it in his song, Copperhead Road. “They draft the white trash round here first, anyway”.
Ya know Ike, the smell of Napalm never leaves your nostrils. It’s always there.
I don’t buy it.
By Ike on 02.12.08 5:54 pm
And I am not selling it! I am stating it. Your freewill choice to see the comparisons and realities!
Oh, BTW, are the Afghans free to speak and think today? Will they be after we leave?
Ya know Ike, the smell of Napalm never leaves your nostrils. It’s always there.
By Greg on 02.12.08 6:44 pm
So true. Neither does Cordite. I can inhale and smell it from memory! I, at least, still remember the good smell of JP-4 and JP-5. LOL
By Bill-Muskoka on 02.12.08 8:06 pm
Then came the thunder.
“Oh, BTW, are the Afghans free to speak and think today?”
Not in some parts of the country. But thank goodness, there are communities in Afghanistan today that are settled and inhabited in peace, whereas they would have been scattered and exiled in fear of the Taliban if it were not for the excellent work our Canadian soldiers are doing.
Let’s finish the job. As Winston Churchill said during WW II, “Give us the tools, and we will finish the job!”
Let’s not leave pockets of Afghanistan ruled by the Taliban from where they will continue to declare “holy war” and jihad on the peace-loving citizens in the other areas.
Then came the thunder.
By Greg on 02.12.08 9:45 pm
Yes, rolling through the jungle where the sound could hardly be discerned from what direction. Those on the ground, who heard the thunder lived. Those who did not DIED!
By Ike on 02.12.08 9:58 pm
You, my friend, are an idealist, disconnected from reality. Your really believe we , as Canadians, can change millenia of history in a few years?
I shall never share your utopian delusion, but struggle on as you will.
For two millenia the messgae of Pease and Good News has been on earth. Is it markedly a better place?
Answer: Only where the Spirit penetrated the Cold Hearts living on FUD!
“Are you a Harry nom de plume?” –Greg.
Greg, to the contrary, if you will check out some of Harry’s latest comments, he belittles me for accepting Bill Muskoka as a person, and as a friend, even though we (Bill and I) may disagree at times.
You can see that Bill considers me as an idealist. I am not idealistic in the sense that we can change the world top down by any human power structure that tries to change people by force. I am only suggesting that as individuals, we can make a difference in our own world, one person at a time.
It is so much better to be friendly, and to reach out even to those we disagree with. I can’t see where the bitterness and the name-calling, and the accusations that we see so prevalent on this blog are getting us anywhere. I am not impressed with that.
I admit that I may seem like a complex person to those who do not know me, but do not judge me superficially by just skimming over my posts. Engage with me. Ask questions. Probe deeper to see if there is wisdom there.
This is what I do with Bill. We ask each other the hard questions, trying to understand how the other thinks.
At times Bill appears contradictory to me as well. For example, some of his posts will eulogize the wisdom of the Egyptian gods and goddesses, and others present Muhamad as his hero and role model as a social reformer.
How you can reconcile the teachings of Egyptian mythology with the monotheism of Muhammad is a bit of a stretch, and Bill has not yet answered these questions to my satisfaction. Nor do I think we should be eulogizing Muhammad and the violent methods of reform that he resorted to. This has not produced a good harvest in the world, in my view.
This does not take away from the fact that I still love and respect Bill as a friend, and value his right to a point of view as much as mine or anybody else.
In this regard, I am decidedly unlike Harry S, so let’s at least be clear on that.
Let’s be not quick to make judgments before we know the depths of what is in another person’s heart and mind. Let’s ask questions. Let’s dialogue. Let’s let each other speak for themselves without comparing people like me to Harry S before you know me, and do more than glance over my posts.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
At times Bill appears contradictory to me as well. For example, some of his posts will eulogize the wisdom of the Egyptian gods and goddesses, and others present Muhamad as his hero and role model as a social reformer.
By Ike on 02.13.08 10:32 am
Ike, you have it so wrong. Why the jump to assumption that I present Mohamed as my hero?
No, he is but one voice from history that had some psoitive things to say.
If I say to you ‘Ike, the sky is blue!’ What does that mean to you?
I merely state facts to educate others. It is their own internal processing that determines the value of what I share.
‘Look inside your own self Luke! Face your own Dark Side and then you will be ready to be a Jedi!’
Obi Wan!
That is the goal. To know by facts the truth, not by the beliefs of others. Then they are your’s to possess and no one can take them from you. ‘I give you a peace beyond all understanding!’
See you in the new topic mon ami. I am done here.