Being a man who values intellectual rigor over political expediency, Stephane Dion will be announcing a bold initiative that puts a price on carbon. Thus, people and companies who emit crap into the air, which helps warm the planet and cause irrevocable damage to the environment, will pay. This, of course, is as it should be. It is common sense. And yet it’s so bold the prime minister cannot do it.
Ultimately, this added cost will find its way into oil and plastic, transportation and food. In fact, most corners of our lives. It will shape the decisions we make about what we buy, how we consume and what we waste. That, also, is at it should be. Concurrently, Dion will propose we shift an equal amount of cost away from the taxes people pay on things we want them to do – like earn income, save and invest. He’ll also propose concrete ways in which lower-income people are better off, and companies gain incentives to grow. As such, he will – in one action – show what he meant with that mantra of a ‘fairer, greener, richer’ Canada.
As I said, intellectually it’s a home run. But this is politics, where intelligence is often roadkill on the highway of fear. Conservatives know that, and have been spooking people with lies about higher gas taxes and an assault on family finances.
I will have a lot more to say on this epic battle soon. Some of it brutal.
129 comments ↓
I have a better idea. Forget the endless debate about global warming and the science of global warming. Carbon tax? Too many detractors and non compliant parties in the world to ever make progress with that initiative. Better to devote one’s limited energies to something that everyone can agree on….this world needs renewable energy and a massive investment in research in renewable energy.
That will kill two birds with one stone and leapfrog the issue of global warming by addressing what is the even larger looming issue. We need energy. Renewable energy will create lessened CO2 emission as a natural “by product” Meanwhile oil shouldn’t be burned…. we need it as feedstock for products like plastics and other petrochemical based products.
Intuitively, I don’t find a carbon tax to be visionary. No doubt there will be many unintended consequences.
I quite admire Dion for having the stones to push this. Once we see the plan in detail, with all the numbers, I believe it could be THE thing Dion needs to mark him as a leader. I do worry a little that the usual shallowness from “pundits”, “victims” and a feckless media and the other parties will come out full force on this one. We keep hearing that Canadians are in favour of doing right by the environment; this could be put up or shut up moment.
There’s nothing to prevent a chunk of the tax raised via the carbon tax being used to fund research on renewables, hell use some of it to fund renewables.
Hoping for the “magic bullet” shouldn’t prevent something that can be done in short order. As to the “detractors” it’ll be up to the advocates to dismantle their claims.
By Brent Fullard on 05.10.08 10:09 pm
Brent, I completely agree with your way of thinking. Investment in renewable energy research. You can’t take away our dependency on oil without a viable alternative.
Dion’s Carbon-Income Tax scheme was leaked to the G & M today, and now you are leaking it all over the place in a desperate attempt to pave the way for Dion’s grand entrance as the saviour of the nation and the planet.
My, how concerned the Liberals are about Canada’s measly 2% GHG production to total global GHGs. China is now the largest GHG emitter on the planet, and who is investing in Chinese high sulphur coal-fired power plants ??? Why it’s the friends of the Liberal party and even an absentee sitting MP is building several specialized brown coal-carrying conveyor vessels in Chinese shipyards to supply those filthy power stations sprouting up at one per day.
I wager Dion will never eschew the purchase of Billion$$$ of Kyoto Carbon Credits from China because friends of the Liberal party are waiting in China to get their grubby hands on Canadian taxpayer’s money .. all to finance those filthy brown coal-fired power stations. No wonder the Chinese love the Liberals and hate Harper who said “NO Kyoto Carbon Credits”.
Now that Harper has reduced the federal government’s ability to raise tax revenue, you Liberals need this Carbon Tax to get your hands on more Canadian taxpayer’s money to finance the purchase of Billion$$$$ of those Kyoto Carbon Credits. And now we know why the past Chretien-Martin-Dion regimes deliberately allowed Canada’s GHG Kyoto commitments to rise a horrendous 32% behind target .. so that Canadians are sandbagged into buying Billion$$$ of Kyoto Carbon Credits to mitigate the outrageous 10 years of Liberal neglect..!!! Talk about crooks ….
I am eager to see if CAW workers in Ontario will embrace Dion’s Carbon Tax that will have adverse repercussions in Oshawa, Oakville, St.Thomas, Windsor and throughout the auto parts companies in SW Ontario. Better cover yer arse in Halton, Garth, because the fallout is going to be radioactive … because you can’t benefit if you’ve lost your auto job and don’t pay any taxes …!!!! Are you there, Dalton ..??!!!
Conservatives must be praying for Dion to announce his Carbon-Income Tax scheme .. and then try to sell it to Canadians.
Garth … is it possible the Liberal party may squelch Dion’s Carbon Tax scheme and then ask him to step down as leader .. or will they wait until Dion fails..??
Being a man who values intellectual rigour over political expediency
You know Garth, some of value the Intelligent over the Politically Expedient. While others here are more impressed with wrapping colour and flashy paper and don’t mind the empty box that is Harper and CPC.
Win or lose, I’d rather be right and do right.
maybe you need to dump the hog Garth.
no pollution controls on bikes ya know!
Carbon tax, is a tax no matter how you dress it up. A tax that consumers will pay. Not the polluters, not the oil companies the consumers will pay.
And if it is tax neutral, why bother, just give us the tax break.
Why is it that the only policy that Dion can come up with is a tax?
Conservatives know that, and have been spooking people with lies about higher gas taxes and an assault on family finances. BY Garth
If the Conservatives are lying then you must be saying that Dion’s Carbon tax will not increase gas taxes and consequently gas prices. The BC Government has instituted a carbon tax and the price of gas is going up 1.5 cents a litre in July. For that we get a one time check of a $100.00. Is Dion going to use a similar bribe sell his carbon tax plan? Sounds like another tax grab to me.
Dion seems to be a man of Honor.
What’s up with Harper’s fear of him representing the Liberals.
I would think that Harper is home free, so why is he trying to depict Dion as some kind of intellectual geek who is not involved in criminal activities, sexual scandals, etc.
Why does Harper want to challenge him when he knows he can make ‘toast’ out of Dion?
Is Harper afraid of getting burnt?
If I was a selfish person, I wouldn’t care what happens in the years 2050 or whatever…I will be a spirit and only Harper can explain what a spirt is.
When we die, I believe we are dead for a long time….
Wow, You have a beautiful friend. Thanks.
Paul Stamets: 6 ways mushrooms can save the world
Through no fault of his own, Dion may be caught between a rock and a hard place with this, and yes tough choices will have to be made, over what stays and what goes.
Never mind carbon taxes, GHG, global warming and / or cooling — coming soon to a continent near us (ours) — food riots and uprisings.
http://tinyurl.com/4shpxu
*******************************************
Added to all the nukes Israel has, the $30-50 bln. / year as a freebie from the US, now they’re being handed this.
A month or so hence, all of the US and Israel’s enemies will have the plans for it.
http://tinyurl.com/66rd9b
Brent – I agree to a point. Right now it appears to be a toss up whether global warming will reach a tipping point before peak oil makes petroleum products unavailable and unaffordable to all but the very rich.
We’re starting to see the latter process even now.
One concept I’ve found particularly inspiring is the idea of Transition, put forward by Rob Hopkins and others. The idea is that like it or not, we are rapidly approaching the end of the Petroleum Age, and that instead of fighting it or denying it, we should embrace it and work towards creating a new way of life that doesn’t depend on fossil fuels.
The movement is spreading in England and Europe where local groups and municipal governments are jointly creating ‘Transition Towns’ that are building resiliency and working towards becoming more self-sufficient in terms of food, energy and industry.
Unfortunately, we North Americans are more addicted to oil that most, so it’s going to take some serious intervention to wean us off of that particular drug. Carbon taxes aren’t the only solution, but they’re a good start.
BTW, Garth – how does this fit in with Dion’s earlier ‘Carbon Budget’ scheme that would have funds from any ‘carbon tax’ redirected into green technologies? I actually liked that idea better than just handing the money back to people in income tax reductions – which, let’s face it, only benefit those who make enough money to PAY significant income tax (speaking as someone who isn’t right now).
Even thought gas is an average of 130 a litre, im sure no one would mind paying more to save the planet. Great idea Mr. Dion keep them Coming.
Rod
If you want to go with the “guilt by association” charge, then all liberals are guilty of theft of taxpayers money.
BY BIKER ON 05.10.08 12:06 AM
So by your logic BIKER all Conservatives are guilty in the sposorship scandal because at the CENTRE of the sponsorship scandal was Conservative bureaucrat Chuck Guite, Conservative Jean Brault and Conservative Paul Coffin.
I’m glad you brought that to our attention, BIKER. I’ll try to use your Con logic more often. Thanks for the heads up!
I am one Canadian who will never forget that it was Stephen Harper who struck the word ‘innovation’ from Canada’s research and development initiatives.
Stephen Harper is firmly entrenched in last century (perhaps earlier) ways and means.
Stephen Harper is an anachronism harking back to earlier times where science was heretical and knowledge punishable by death.
In Stephen Harper’s world, the sun revolves around himself and adherents who inhabit EastGate and RockePoint. If God isn’t hurrying to their pleasure, they’re bound and determined to make their own impact. And God be damned.
The Harperites and Harper Xtians have no patience with The Father, but march to the beat of their own Father Harper.
Let history repeat itself.
God and Goddess are nothing if not patient.
The announcement of the Carbon Tax by Mr. Dion certainly is a major step on his part. Politics being as it is, I’m unsure as to how Canadians will view this tax, especially as we’re all aware of the stigma of raising taxes even in light of positive polls on the issue. Regardless, Dion and the Liberals are stepping forward and proposing a tax on pollution which will fundamentally work to change the way that we Canadians consume in the market place. Many if it is ever imposed will not like the results, but eventually learn to live with the knowledge that the Canadian government is once again at the lead on environmental matters, as well as making a real effort to push the private sector to make large scale investments into renewable energies that can work. With the coming era of scarcity of energy, Dion’s proposal to tax carbon actually appears to be working towards solutions to dealing with this scarcity by encouraging Canadians through fiscal policy to change their habits, and their lives in order to manage this potentially chaotic future. Canadians will need to abandon their SUVs and their Minivans and look to adapt themselves early to this new era, and higher gas prices will do that.
I’m a Liberal Party member myself and many would call me a usual party advocate for supporting Mr. Dion on this issue, but economic populism is nothing more then pandering to the population for votes so you can keep your job on Parliament Hill. Dion’s intellectual stand on this carbon tax to ensure our future as a society based upon “Peace, Order and Good Government” with a leadership that understands the need for reason and scientific argument in government is a far-cry from the Tories’ populist and almost anti-intellectual stand against matters such as progressive Global Warming legislation and the safe-injection site in Vancouver. The oncoming era of scarce energy is a matter which could be much more devastating to Canadian society then Global Warming or the decline in the Housing market ever could be, and Dion is demonstrating that he is willing to put forward plans to encourage increased efficiency in Canadian energy usage and lower our dependence on non-renewables.
After the Carbon Tax policy is announced, I reckon that there will be difficulty amongst commentators to question Dion’s strength in leadership. Only a true leader would readily advocate such a controversial measure.
Intuitively, I don’t find a carbon tax to be visionary. No doubt there will be many unintended consequences.
BY BRENT FULLARD ON 05.10.08 10:09 PM
Brent is absolutely right about alternative fuels being an absolute must—we have to stop burning the oil & preserve it for those things we cannot do without.
I also think that there is a place for a carbon tax–we need some incentive to push us away from using oil unwisely & forcing the establishment of an alternative .
Hydrogen is the near perfect fuel in terms of CO2 emissions–we just need the incentive to make it work.
Some form of a Carbon tax just might l make it happen.
Will Big Oil allow it to happen??
They will be exerting their “already noted” influence within the Harper Government to stop any such full fledged initiative.
Mr Harper has already shown his willingness to allow them to stay king in this country.
If you don`t believe me , just ask the Income Trusts.
Dr mike Popovich—former life-long Conservative.
So basically, you and Stephane Dion’s vision is “those that CAN AFFORD TO SIN, will continue to pollute and others will starve and freeze”.
Example, people who are wealthy will still continue to go for joy rides in the country (cars or motorcycles); people who are wealthy will still continue to snowmobile or skidoo at their cottages; people who are wealthy will still continue to fly for their exotic vacations.
Great vision there Garth. NOT!
Activities that are environmentally destructive should be taxed and the money reinvested towards activities that create environmental sustainability. The dividends of such research, such as the sale of environmentally sustainable technologies as the product of this research and development should be paid back to Canadians. Of course this model won’t appeal to Hobbesian types.
Brent Fullard 10:09pm
I agree with your positon that carbon taxes are the wrong way to go At least Dion has the right idea that we need to offset any additional costs to consumers with reduced taxes.
My Daughter said at the supper table tonight, “what if government spent all the gas taxes on public transit and allow cities and towns to spend whatever it takes to make good transit systems and increase gas taxes to cover the costs.” If you think about it only the rich who can afford gas pay taxes will drive while the average person using transit pays none. For those of us living up north or in rural areas where the population is too low for mass transit to be economical would have to be looked after like Dions proposal. We have a northern living allowence to cover our much higher costs that has not been increased since it was brought in over 15 years ago. It needs to be doubled just to partly cover infation during those years and doubled again to bring it into todays realty and to offset increased gas taxes. While the rest of Canada paid around a dollar a liter all winter here in Whitehorse gas has been a buck twenty since it dropped to that level last August. Lately it went up like every one else to a buck forty to fifty. If the northern livng allowence was expanded to a rural living allowence this would make my duaghters idea fair for everyone. The rich get to pay taxes, urban livers get workable mass transit and rural folks get enough of a tax break to offset their circumstances.
The big winners are us!!!! If we can get half the cars off the roads in our urban areas and unclog rush hours with the increadable waste of energy going nowhere fast we will do more for the environment than any carbon tax by massivly reducing the amount of gas burnt not to mention reducing the price of oil.
What if we set a 5 year goal of producing 50% of our electricty from non carbon sources. And a 25 year goal of 100%. What if we passed a law that all new homes where possible must be heated by electricity or other non carbon source. If we combined this with a massive retrofit program for homes on oil, gas or propane this would do a lot to offset some of the coming economic downturn.
I understand Ontario put governers on trucks tha has reduced accidents considerably. Why can’t we put them on all vehicles. If all on road traffic was set to a maximum of 100kh then manufacturers would be able to put simpler and smaller engines in all vehicles except those used for heavy loads in which case a more powerful engine geared lower would be the norm. Several months ago we all asked why we need 150hp off road vehicles? Why not limit all recreational off road vehicles at 60kph except for licencing any vehicles that need to go faster as a function of their use or need. Is there a recreational need for boat motors over 20hp? except for legitemit commercial need we should charge as much as the motor is worth each year for those rich enough to “need” one.
As Brent pointed out reducing the need for carbon based energy is only half the solution. The other half is replacing our fossil fuel based culture with one that doesn’t need it. Except for Mr. Stronach and his electric car Canada is one of the only countries that is not moving forward on this front. This is going to be the long term solution to the economic downturn. Iceland has geothermal power and a fleet of hydrogen powered cars as well as the first hydrogen powered boat. Most countries in europe get some of their electricity from the wind up to 20%. A village on an island off Ireland gets its power from tidal generators between the island and the mainland. closer to home two towns on the pacific coast in Alaska just an hour and a half south of Whitehorse get most of their power from a tiny waterfall on the coastal mountains that now flows through two pipes into a generator. Whitehorse gets its power from our hydo-elactric dam on the Yukon river as well as a couple of experimental windmills a thousand feet over my house. If everyone else is actively seeking alternatives why is this country sitting on its ass twiddling our thumbs?
Instead of some complicated Kyoto type carbon tax scheme that business will work around anyway why doesn’t our federal government act instead? Instead of allowing companies to pretend to deal with cleaning up after themselves why can’t the feds go in and CLEAN IT UP OURSELVES. Send the bill to the company or industry and see how long they pollute. If we made every person holding shares in the company personaly responsible to pay the bill according to ownership we would instantly change our business practices from maximising profit to sustainable profit. I believe every mine in the Yukon has closed with the owners going bankrupt. This has resulted in the federal government (you) beng responsible for about 2 BILLION dollars of cleanup costs. We currently spend tens of millions to maintain the toxic waste tailings ponds each year until it gets cleaned up. NOW MULTIPLY THIS ACROSS CANADA and see what kind of number you can posibly imagine that our federal and provincial governments are on the hook for!!!!!!
These are just a few of thousands of alternatives to complicated carbon tax schemes.
I have no reservations about the ability of any Liberal government to bring in a new tax, whether “carbon” or any other. What has never been apparent in any Liberal administration in my lifetime, is the ability to cut or transfer any tax load from Canadian citizens. Tell me why we should trust that this will happen this time under the Liberals? (Remember the Red Book and the GST cuts? The cuts didn’t happen until Harper.)
By Van on 05.10.08 11:54 pm
If the Carbon Tax is only going to cost me 1.5 cents a litre, and will help clean up this mess we are leaving our grandchildren, then I say bring it on and keep the $100 check.
Well done Garth, and please continue to stay on message, “You have to be cruel to kind” that phase is all about kindness, attack adds are meant to spike negative emotions by forcing people away from the truth. We as nation among other like minded nations can only hope that goodness in a shroud of truth can trump evil.
Please for pay attention:
It now widely reported that for the first time in history the next generation will not out live the previous one. This means our children and grandchildren, so stop look and listen and think of future. Count me in Garth.
Thanks Mr. Dion for thinking about the urban folks once again. With subsidized transportation and most amenities a small walk away, you’ll get kudos from those people. However, here in the country where we HAVE to drive everywhere we go and especially us farmers who are already paying killer rates for fuel, fertilizer etc., if you ever get power you can be sure we will be camped on your doorstep. Leasa
Considering that not even Trudeau could make an NEP – nor even Petrocan in the long run – stick against the oil sector, good luck, Dion.
Randall Denley has an illuminating look at fuel costs as a factor in motoring costs in to-day’s Ottawa Citizen at http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/columnists/story.html?id=30ae8843-b80d-4770-a572-efe075abf257
It is amazing the amount of criticism that is already on Garth’s blog about a potential carbon tax and none of you even know the details of the proposal. This smacks of partisanship and is immature to say the least.
Let’s wait to see the details of Dion’s proposal before becoming emotional and just ranting about it.
Two facts stare us in the face today: 1) the world is running out of oil so we do need to encourage conservation of an increasingly scarse commodity, and 2) Climate change is real.
We need to change consumption patterns and we need to create energy from renewable resources. A carbon tax is one way that we can begin to shift behaviour and conserve fossil fuels. While there are plenty of nay-sayers, there are also many leading economic thinkers that feel a carbon tax would be good policy.
“Pollution must have a price tag. Currently it is too cheap to pollute, and too expensive not to.”
Don Drummond, Chief Economist, TD Bank, March 7, 2007
http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/govrel/news.cfm?story=57676
“[The argument that taxes on oil or carbon emissions would ruin an economy is] fundamentally false. First of all, I don’t think it is going to have that much of an impact on the economy overall. Second of all, if you don’t do it, you can be sure that the economy will go down the drain in the next 30 years.”
Paul Volcker, former Chairman, US Federal Reserve, February 6, 2007
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/02/06/news/FIN-GEN-Egypt-Volcker-Global-Warming.php
“Ideally, politicians would choose the more efficient carbon tax, which implies a relatively stable price that producer can building into their investment plans”
Editorial, The Economist, September 9, 2006
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7884738
“If your objective is to cut greenhouse gas emissions, a carbon tax is definitely one of the most effective ways of doing that.”
Doug Porter, Deputy Chief Economist, BMO
http://corporateknightsforum.com/index.php/CKtemplates/CKcomments/100/
“Two things are needed to stabilize greenhouse gas concentrations: you need a price on carbon, preferably through a carbon tax, to induce firms and individuals to cut back on their emissions; and you need an energy technology race.”
Chris Green, Professor of Economics, McGill University
http://corporateknightsforum.com/index.php/CKtemplates/CKcomments/100/
“A carbon tax is the best, cheapest and most efficient way to combat cataclysmic climate change.”
Time to tax carbon, Los Angeles Times editorial, May 28, 2007
“What’s needed is a carbon tax — a tax on all fossil-based fuels that reflects their true social, political, and environmental costs.”
Robert Reich, Professor of Public Policy at the Goldman School of Public Policy at the University of California at Berkeley, former U.S. Secretary of Labor. (American Prospect Online Edition, Inherit the Windfall Feb. 7, 2007)
According to current research done at Stanford University predictions in the 1980’s about the world production of oil had about a 20% inaccuracy rate. Predictions made in the 1990’s and later have a 3% inaccuracy rate. Bottom line is that economists have gotten much better in forecasting world wide oil production over the past 15 years….and the prognosis is not good.
In 1956 geologist M. King Hubbert predicted that oil production in the lower 48 states would peak in the early 1970’s and decline forever after. His prediction was actually optimistic. Oil production in the lower 48 states peaked in 1970.
Hubbert’s model shows that production of a commodity follows a bell curve with peak production coming at the middle of the bell cureve. It is estimated that the known world-wide reserves of oil is about 1 trillion barrels. Since man began burning fossil fuels, we have consumed about 900 million barrels…so we are fast approaching the peak of the bell curve. At best we probably have 8 years before the top of the bell curve is reached. Many researchers feel that we will hit the peak in this current decade.
Kenneth Deffeyes, a retired geophysics professor from Princeton University, has applied Hubbert’s modeling to world wide oil production. His analysis of world wide production indicates that 94% of production will come from fields that are already in production. The dream that mankind will somehow find new, untapped sources of oil is a fallacy.
Once the peak of the bell curve has been reached oil production will drop off quickly since demand in China and India is rapidly driving up world-wide demand.
Once we hit the Hubbert’s Peak in world wide oil production (whether that is in this decade or by the MOST OPTOMISTIC of forecasts by 2015) world wide production will decrease rapidly. David Goldstein, vice provost at California Institute of Technology, has estimated that world wide production will drop by 50% with a decade of when Hubbert’s Peak is reached. Deffeyes is even less optimistic – he predicts a 90% decline by 2019.
I appreciate that there will be some folks on this blog who negate science and will not take the time to try to educate themselves on this issue – and will simply criticize my post as ‘doom and gloom’. That will not change reality that predictions about world wide oil production done for the past 15 years have proven to be 97% accurate – and that everything is pointing to declining production. That, coupled with escalating demand leads to an inevitable outcome. We will run out of oil early in this century.
We need to cut our oil consumption dramatically. If carbon taxes help accomplish that…then let’s do it NOW.
NOTE: We are fossil fuels trying to create biofuels since only sugar cane actually produces more energy than it costs to produce. Biofuels made from corn and soybeans are actually net consumers of fossil fuels and are also driving up world wide food prices.
We need to significantly ramp up our research and commercialization of renewable energy from solar and wind. We need to work towards a vision where individuals and families meet all their energy needs by generating their own power from wind and solar.
There are TREMENDOUS economic opportunities for Canada if we take bold, visionary initiatives to be on the leading edge of renewable energy research and commericalization. Right now the world (and many people on Garth’s blog!) are living in a dream world based on the mathematically impossible promise of an endless supply of oil.
Let’s see Dion’s plan. He is a man reputed to have great intellect and vision. I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
By Brent Fullard on 05.10.08 10:09 pm
I also agree with Brent. The problem that we are facing is that governments delayed action too long in using policy to create viable alternatives. By catering to the oil companies with a series of tax incentives there was no incentive to invest in alternatives. In fact, in rural areas of the country the opposite has occured.
I will await the Dion plan but I am extremely concerned because our system is already so biased against small town and rural living.
Excuse me Harry, (good morning all & Happy Mom’s Day) but I do think the auto industry has been in trouble for quite some time now. Maybe the trade deals? AND the lack of will to change our behaviours?? We have two distinct choices, being put before us- to act in progressive ways that work- European; or go South…and how’s that workin` out for us? (I don’t believe one word Mr. Baird or CPC says about this- or anything else.)
Looks like another politician shooting themselves in the foot.
The Jack Mintz carbon tax plan seems like a great idea. I suspect Harper will poll all summer to get a feeling for public support for a carbon tax. If he feels it is a winner, the Conservatives will introduce a carbon tax bill in the fall and take the wind out of Dion’s sails.
By Leasa on 05.11.08 7:23 am
It would appear, Leasa, you are between a rock and a hard place here, under the present government you are facing extreme hardship, under the proposed new carbon tax, you have assumed it will be even harder. I am curious, it seems like neither party is looking out for your interests, and voting for either of them seems to me to be committing suicide,in your situation, just a question of which one gets you there quicker. I have to agree with C.B., you need someone in there that is willing to change the system to fairly reflect the situation of rural areas.
Maybe a whole new system of an appointed federal government by the provinces or an independent government, certainly if I were in your shoes and felt the way you do, I wouldn’t be going back to the same well.
As Buddy would say “NAP”
An Innovative Idea
I suggest an additional levy on all the methane gas that is produced by CONS spewing their MANURE.
To make this “visionary initiative” revenue neutral, rebates will be provided to CONServatives to purchase DUCT TAPE covering their mouths, thereby resulting in a virtuous circle of lesser and lesser repugnant gas being released into the atmosphere.
Not sure about the details, but the theory is sound.
Shouldn’t people wait to hear the “whole” plan before passing judgment?
Do you sign a contract without reading it first?
Lets assume for the sake of debate, my family pays 2000k for Nat Gas to heat our home each year and so does the family down the road, we have a income of 100k and they have an income of 30k, We pay about 25G in income tax all told and they pay 5k, sounds kinda of accurate so far. Now, lets say just for the sake of argument again, the increase in heating is 30% so therefore we pay an extra 600 a year but so does the family down the road, now come tax time, we get 2500 extra back and they get 500 at the 10% that the LPC is talking about,,, NOW WHO IN THEIR GOD DAMN RIGHT MIND IS GOING TO TELL ME THAT IS FAIR. When you start taxing essentials, you start hurting the lowest income earners, wake up people for freak sakes, and this will apply to more then just home heating, its trickle effect with have an impact on every essential purchase that we make.
The plan would likely remove those lower-income people form the tax roles entirely. And if fuel goes up 30%, it will not be due to any price on carbon, but rather world prices. Finally, the people down the road probably have kids, and I would think their future matters as much as natural gas. — Garth
As another side fact for all to ponder when looking at the ramifications of this policy and the urban, rural divide, how many people know that when STATS CAN starts talking about percentages concerning urban rural, any hamlet with over 1K people is deemed urban, check out their sites, I damn near died when I say it, because I can tell you of a lot of these urban centers of that size that have absolutely NO, public transport across this great country who will be paying thru the nose for this tax due to the fact as stated above they have no choice to drive.
A tax is visionary? ha,ha,ha
Go tell family’s who drive to hockey in the winter that there gas price is going up, and there home heating.
The best part oil is at 120 a barrel. And you lefties were saying that a couple bucks added to a barrel of oil at 80 bucks was going to save the world.
Nothing but a tax grab by Dion and the liberals.
SLG & John L
I agree – I waited to see the present government’s green plans before I passed judgement, and I will wait to see Mr. Dion’s essay too.
To do as so many have done on this thread is just to engage in public intellectual masturbation.
Good Morning all.
I have read all the comments on this blog & I for one will not be making any judgment before Mr. Dion’s carbon tax is announced with all of its details. The problem with people is that we have a habit of jumping to conclusions without knowing anything about the issues & solutions presented. We believe ourselves experts on Global warming when we have next to no knowledge about the causes. There is no doubt in my mind that drastic measures have to be taken & soon. Yesterday would have been better & today may already be too late. Thanks Greg.W of Oakville for this link. For you non-believers, take the time to look at it & I’ll bet even a child can see the logic & relate to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF_anaVcCXg&feature=related
The Crap trolls on Garths blog were predicting gas prices to rise to $1.50 a liter by summer if Kyoto were implemented & that goes to show you how wrong that analogy was. Gas prices will reach $1.50. & beyond a liter without any carbon tax of any kind ever implemented & that’d a fact. The oil companies are probably the worst polluters of all. They are gouging & inflating gas prices, recording massive profits & the people whom we hired to speak for us & lead our country are gouging us as much with the taxes they collect from oil. If even the GST were to be taken off of gas & used for implanting a carbon tax, it would pay for itself. Maybe that will be part of Mr. Dions solution to off-set taxing the consumer but like most on this blog, I am just speculating. Its time we have a government with a backbone who has the guts & the heart to put a stop to this craziness & but a high carbon tax on all polluters especially big oil companies. It’s high time that big business get their claws off of running our country.
Maybe Global Warming is true & maybe its not but we have only one life to live. Can we wait & do nothing & take the chance that credible science is wrong? I for one am willing to pay for the chance to save planet earth & if it means cutting back on some luxuries so be it. That will be a small price to pay to curb global warming.
Garth … is it possible the Liberal party may squelch Dion’s Carbon Tax scheme and then ask him to step down as leader .. or will they wait until Dion fails..??
By Harry S on 05.10.08 10:51 pm
Harry! don’t you ever give up? You are such a loser & your to dense to see that. Give it up already.
Regards to all & Happy Mothers Day to the fine ladies on this blog.
Cheers
There will be no increase in the gas tax. Stop lying. — Garth
By Catherine on 04.29.08 5:48 pm
Garth, Catherine didn’t say anything about an increase in the gas tax. She was commenting on the proposed carbon tax. The B.C. carbon tax will increase the price per litre by 2.4 cents per litre coming July 1 08. Are you saying any proposed Liberal federal carbon tax will not apply to the carbon emmitted from the tailpipe of vehicles on Canadian roads?
A Liberal government will not increase taxes on gasoline. You read it here first. — Garth
Ultimately, this added cost will find its way into oil and plastic, transportation and food.-Garth
So when I asked you about the proposed carbon tax last week and you answered that a Liberal government would not increase gas tax, were you being misleading or were you just ignorent of what the Carbon tax would be affecting?
To say that a carbon tax will not find its way into gasoline prices is the ultimate in political spinning. It will definitely affect gasoline prices(like in BC), home heating, and electricity prices in parts of the country!! It will for the most part be a punitive tax on the low income crowd. And no tax is “revenue neutral”. Spin all you want Garth but it will be political loser. Bring it on!
1.5 cents a litre, and will help clean up this mess. keep the $100 check.
By wjp on 05.11.08 6:56 am
lol, just forward any unwanted $100 checks to buddy and support NAP.
Seriously Mr. P the BC carbon tax starts at $02.41/L and unfortunately it will not clean up this mess. It is revenue neutral but contrary to what is stated in the following article the majority of the tax break goes to the banks, not British Columbians, technology initiation or even alternative energy sources,,, it`s going to the banks as a preemptive bail out from the 40 year 0 down mortgage.
From the information released on the Dion plan I have to conclude the tax transfer from consumers to corporations sounds like a backwards step. Wasn`t it just 20 years ago that we replaced the manufactures tax with GST transferring taxes from corporations to consumers? Wouldn`t it be just a whole lot simpler to axe the GST and put that tax back on corporations, the higher the pollution indexed the more the company pays. The saving in GST management costs alone would light up Ottawa or fund a global university competition for a pollution free mag lift transportation system.
Besides I`m very curious on how a minuscule drop in Cdn CO2 will have any influence on GW when the BC Pine Beetle puts as much CO2 in the air as all the cars in Canada combined.
http://tinyurl.com/5c6xxh
From Saturday’s Globe and Mail
May 10, 2008 at 9:20 AM EDT
B.C. Premier says
2.41 cents per litre of gasoline, rising to 7.24 cents by 2012.
It is revenue neutral so revenues from the tax will be returned to British Columbians as tax breaks.
You guys, you need to think this through a little further. How is a carbon tax going to save the planet. It will destroy the Canadian economy. We need to reduce CO2 through incentives for industry and public transportation. Taxing carbon is not the answer. For the foreseeable future, gas and oil are a necessity. Every single one of your neccessities are based on oil, except air. Electricty generation, heating your house, every single good you buy is trucked to the store. Every penny will be passed on to you and me. As Garth says, “It will shape the decisions we make about what we buy, how we consume and what we waste.” everything we consume is influenced by the price of gas to to manufacturing process or shipping. If our goal is to reduce our useage, we will decimate the auto sector, kill tourism, and pay dearly for the tax on industry’s carbon useage, all for goods and services you and I cannot do without.
This is not the way to go.
Kerry
By Luke Miguez on 05.11.08 3:49 am
By William Dahl on 05.11.08 6:01 am
………………………………….
You present admirable ideals in your views on a carbon tax, but what you ignore is the ramifications of such a tax on Canadian industry. We know that altruistic Canadian women and children will espouse anything that punishes gluttonous energy use, and promotes a greener Canada, however these same bleeding heart people have no idea how it affects industry.
A tax on natural gas used for heating or processing will cause price increases on everything in Canada, from gasoline to fuel oil to plastics to most everything around us.
Oil refineries and chemical plants using large amounts of natural gas, and the Alberta oil sands using huge amounts of natural gas will get hit by a carbon tax. The carbon tax will be a money-maker on those industries, and in effect a money grab by central government. Also the heating bill on large factories, like auto factories will affect them too. Then PM Paul Martin excused the Ontario car factories from Kyoto restriction, and for good reason. Now if Dion wants to carbon tax the car factories and thus add cost to their product, that will further destabilize car making in Ontario.
I can see Dion attempting to divide Canadians on a carbon tax .. those who love the planet and those who fear for their jobs. In general, women will vote for a masochistic carbon tax to punish the country, while men will fear for their jobs and families and reject a carbon tax. Simplistic psychological analysis, but it will enter into the political strategy over a carbon tax. Notice that the NDP and BQ are silent on a carbon tax, most likely until they see the devil in the details.
Dion will either be a big winner with his carbon tax or a big loser and drag the Liberal party down with him. Liberals are barely treading water now, so this will be the summer of Dion selling his carbon tax. I wonder if all Liberals have the motivation to follow Dion on his Carbon Tax scheme as the solution to Canada’s 2% GHGs ….
Nothing but a tax grab by Dion and the liberals.
By Blue Magic on 05.11.08 9:57 am
Dear blinkered and stupid :
So give us an alternate plan wise guy .
“Better to devote one’s limited energies to something that everyone can agree on….this world needs renewable energy and a massive investment in research in renewable energy.” – Brent
By Brent Fullard on 05.10.08 10:09 pm
Your statement above is dead on, Brent. But your conclusion is wrong. You know the solution, I do, most who accept that there is a problem know the solution, so… if its so obvious, why isn’t a major initiative underway?
I believe this is the first time I’ve ever read something from you that I disagree with in terms of your conclusion and why I say this is because for some reason, you fail to see why major initiatives have not been taken to pour large investments into green tech and look at radical (but necessary) changes to the infrastructure we see now… radical, yes, but highly needed. So much waste.
So why isn’t the money being spent?
TOO MUCH PROFIT IN OIL!
Until the profit is taken out of oil, nothing will change, Brent and taxation on consumption vs taxation on income is the way to do it.
Currently, Exxon is the biggest corporation in the world. Their market cap is larger than the market caps of all the North American auto manufacturers and perhaps even the world… so who dictates MPG policy in the whitehouse? Democratically elected politicians such as Garth doing their job? Or Exxon and Haliburton… and the other top 50 market caps in the U.S..
Democracy died in the U.S. some time ago, but not here. And until profit on consumption is taxed, corporations will run the show and dictate policy here as well.
Dion’s strategy and environmental policy is bold. In a word, visionary and I say this because until consumption of goods that wrecks this environment is taxed, everything else will pay dearly. The environment will pay and all that are products of that environment and make up that environment so do I have to spell it out? We’ll all pay. Pay with disease, degraded environments, to know we failed as stewards to pass onto the next generation a better opportunity than the generation that preceeded us.
So yeah, who wants to pay more at the pumps? But in the same breath, who wants lower income taxes? Who wants to take that tax revenue that bites into profit from oil to make it happen, including financing the federal initiatives to encourage Green tech and development from cradle to cradle?
Who wants it?
I do and I know the Cons will spin and fear monger and all the rest with this, but if Dion is smart and explains his position well, the solution is more than merely sound. Its GENIUS!!!!
By Harry S on 05.10.08 10:51 pm
Another old worn out “everybody else is dirty so we should be too, or that makes it ok.” You’ve blathered on and on about leadership and lack there of… see it full frontal and this is what we get? Lets be lemmings? Get real.
“Win or lose, I’d rather be right and do right.”
By Zorpheous on 05.10.08 11:02 pm
I’d rather do both.
By david on 05.10.08 11:04 pm
He’s got a point! Lead by example…
By biker on 05.10.08 11:17 pm
biker… you are assuming that oil & gas producers will be untaxed… where does assumptions lead to again? You are also assuming that tax cuts won’t happen somewheres else. Whatever happened to the big picture, dude.
By Van on 05.10.08 11:54 pm
Its a tax grab that will also lead to tax cuts and force corps to look for profit elsewhere and that, pal, is dearly needed. Don’t think in the wake of man made climate change that it is not.
By Luke Miguez on 05.11.08 3:49 am
You’ve nailed it!
By William Dahl on 05.11.08 6:01 am
Love your will and goal, William. Lets be patient and here Dion’s plan and go from there.
By Leasa on 05.11.08 7:23 am
By C. B. Innes on 05.11.08 8:31 am
I for one, see the solution in subsidizing farmers for producing bio fuels on site at farms proportionate to their scale of production and industrial consumption. Bio diesel involves growing oil seeds and hydruaulic presses for extraction, not to mention low cost paper filters to produce good quality bio-diesel. From there, an easy retrofit with two tanks, a small one with conventional fuel to start and intitally warm up the motoer for the first minute and then a flick of the switch from there and whalla! Major savings and independence from oil and gas producers for farmers.
The answers are there, we just need to be imaginative, lobby hard with the solutions when we’ve got it right, and this Liberal government has shown its listening and willing.
By wjp on 05.11.08 9:04 am
Are you kidding me? Painting Dion and Harper with the same brush is like comparing apples and buicks and calling it the same.
Then again, if Dion doesn’t respond to rural needs, we need to find someone who will. I believe he’ll respond in spades. I find faith at this point, highly functional… but if he blows it, what, is this not a democracy? Vote him out and get someone in there who can get it done, but at this point, the faith meter on my end has just doubled. If the plan is what I think it is, it will skyrocket. If I’m duped, we’ll all be duped and Dion won’t last long, mark my words. This system of democracy in Canada does, after all, work!
By slg on 05.11.08 9:41 am
Echo’s my sentiment.
By KH on 05.11.08 9:48 am
If you truly spend 2 k on heating bills, then your heating system is grossly inefficient to begin with. Try heat to water to air with a forced air natural gas system and your gas consumption will be cut in most cases by 250% regardless of the insulation or lack thereof…
You like others, are missing it. Jack a tax on consumption, and consumers become more efficient. Isn’t it needed? Or do we have to be lemmings and guineapigs for the great corporate “consume, consume, consume” so we can be rich and you’ll all have jobs spin that leads to us all living in a wasteland with no one to blame but ourselves for allowing greed to dictate the policies of today for the extinction of tomarrow.
By KH on 05.11.08 9:51 am
So thats your excuse for the consumer burning 20 bucks worth of gas to go downtown with a V8 or SUV guzzler for a loaf of bread, case of beer or pack of cigs? C’mon. Its high time someone stood up to corporate greed for the sake of everyone’s survival including their own. Sure, we have no choice to drive rurally… does that mean we need to drive veichles that only get 15 MPG’s to the gallon?
I’m from a farm and need to get some seed in the ground as we speak, but out here, we’ve got the same collection of viechles as most. A couple grain trucks, 3 or 4 pickups and a putter for the trips to town. We haven’t got major money to throw around contrary to the old saying which goes, “those who cry poverty, are usually the richest of all.” This saying, while generally true, isn’t a golden rule and in our case, that is the case. So when we do our 15 mile commute plus for our wares, we don’t take the guzzlers. We take the putter cause were already thinking efficiency. But the ones who can afford it, do not… until it affects their wallets. So tax consumption? Hell yeah!!!! Bring it on!!
By Blue Magic on 05.11.08 9:57 am
And nothing but half truths from the blind. (sounds to me like its not the only sense that isn’t working)
Conclusions:
You want leadership? You want a nation that leads environmentally? Elect Dion. You want to vote for your own self interests at the great expense of others and ultimately, your own self? Vote for the guy who is likeminded. The prick in question isn’t hard to find on the ballot coming to a fall theatre near you.
The spin, if controlled properly, will produce an outcome that will give this nation the percentage of voters who either vote for whats best for the nation and its inhabitants and the world overall, vs voters who only give a shit about themselves. With this election, there will be no fence riders. The line has become elephant visible. Take a wild guess as to which side those who care for others when they are too weak, blind, ignorant and grossly misinformed to think clearly enough for themselves will be on. They won’t be voting for the guy who tries the hapless “puritan” who tries in every way possible to buy elections and preys on the weakness of the self centered dorks who can never look beyond their own selfish selves.
Wups! Out of time, gotta put some seed in the ground in Sask, y’all have a great day, and thanks, moms, for the love!
Really Garth were going to remove this people from the tax roles entirely are we, what are adjusts are we going to make, when is the LPC going to put some meat on the bones of these proposals, lets see, fighting poverty, big press release, no meat, carbon tax, official press release to follow, is guessing no meat on the bones of it, opps, let not forget daycare,, how are they going to pay for it, who knows, it is not important just the press release is, When are you just going to admit, the LPC is screwed, the CPC has given back all the surplus and the only way to drive big social program now will be to honestly look at the Canadian people and say we will raise your taxes.
This system of democracy in Canada does, after all, work!
By brain on 05.11.08 11:30 am
Sorry, I disagree, voting for an MP who votes as the party tells him and not the wishes of his/her constituents is not democracy as I know it. Changing him/her for another MP of a different party who does the same thing does not enhance democracy…sorry Brain, while I agree with a lot of things you say on here, and would love the see the CPC on the sidelines and I agree Dion would be the better of the two, there is no democracy in Canada, it is an illusion!
1. Carbon taxes will lend predictability to energy prices, whereas cap-and-trade systems will aggravate the price volatility that historically has discouraged investments in less carbon-intensive electricity generation, carbon-reducing energy efficiency and carbon-replacing renewable energy.
2. Carbon taxes can be implemented much sooner than complex cap-and-trade systems. Because of the urgency of the climate crisis, we do not have the luxury of waiting while the myriad details of a cap-and-trade system are resolved through lengthy negotiations.
3. Carbon taxes are transparent and easily understandable, making them more likely to elicit the necessary public support than an opaque and difficult to understand cap-and-trade system.
4. Carbon taxes can be implemented with far less opportunity for manipulation by special interests, while a cap-and-trade system’s complexity opens it to exploitation by special interests and perverse incentives that can undermine public confidence and undercut its effectiveness.
5. Carbon taxes address emissions of carbon from every sector, whereas cap-and-trade systems discussed to date have only targeted the electricity industry, which accounts for less than 40% of emissions.
6. Carbon tax revenues can be returned to the public through progressive tax-shifting, while the costs of cap-and-trade systems are likely to become a hidden tax as dollars flow to market participants, lawyers and consultants.
Garth your writing skills can never be in question. Now the dictionaries have to make a new entry,” GAY” used mean “happy”, (bold and initiative)now mean more taxes.
By brain on 05.11.08 11:30 am,
I don’t know where you live but you clearly have little concept of rural and small town living in this century. A large percentage of rural and small town residents are non-farm. The farming sector makes up only a small segment of rural life.
Part of the reason is that the “free market” system discourages small enterprise and encourages factory farming and importing. It has virtually destroyed the rural farm economy in much of this country.
Government is totally focused today on globalism. Earlier today I listened to Jim Prentice make that point. The priority of government has been for decades to make specific corporations viable in the global marketplace. This requires the concentration of massive amounts of capital in select industries. This has been a Liberal policy certainly since 1993, which was driven by Paul Martin with the full support of Jean Chretien.
I had hoped that Dion had a more balanced vision but so far all indications are that he is moving in the same direction as his precedessors.
Simply placing a large tax on the general public and cutting income and corporate taxes in a tax neutral plan, will help the already wealthy, it is going to create major hardships for most and particularly the rural non-farm population.
There are huge potential unintended consequences such as a massive influx of rural and small town populations into cities, magnifiying the current problems faced by these urban centers.
Without a policy that is also focused on reviving local and regional economies any plan can have major negative economic, social, and environmental implications.
Garth
In the next few months we will examine the balancing act between where we should be and where will be in ten years. Ultimately, it will be the hearts and minds of Canadians that will decide how we shape our future.
Mr. Dion will need to listen to Canadians and understand that all politics are local.
Newfoundland and Saskatchewan have conventional oil and gas – will there be a distinction for a carbon tax from the Alberta Tarsands?
Ontario and the Maritimes are dependent on coal fired electricity.
Quebec has hydro but a distinct view of our confederation and provincial cooperation.
Manitoba and B.C. have hydro damns and two green Premiers. Mr. Campbell, however came late to the game and many in B.C. have a certain cynicism to his conversion.
The Territories remain isolated from the urban south and many communities use diesel powered electricity.
Alberta will threaten us with succession.
To transition our nation is an enormous undertaking. We have done it before: building the railway, a national healthcare program, fiscal debt reduction.
Sign me up. I, like Mr. Dion believe Canadians are ready.
I live in a small country village. Leasa thinks the farmers “who have to drive everywhere” will be hurt by a carbon tax.
Just tell your farmer friends to have their morning coffee at home instead of driving 10 miles to and from the town restaurant.Tell them their big gas sucking over-sized trucks are not intended to be used for their daily coffee run/ lunch break/ afternoon chit chat at the local cafe/ after sup chit chat at the local cafe,, etc etc.
I see farmers in town several times a day–there are no farm outlets in town, no feed mills, no stock yards—just 4 restaurants, a bank and a garage ( no gas pumps)
I do not feel sorry for farmers when I see them cruising around town in huge gas guzzlers.
Perhaps they should consider investing in a hybrid for their unnecessary trips.
There has been no warming trend since 1998. This fact is not disputed by the IPCC.
The hypothesis that anthropogenic CO2 is baneful to the climate is clearly fallacious.
So to spend money on CO2 abatement is a criminal waste.
The proposed tax would increase costs and inflation.
What is the point of it?
Tell me why we should trust that this will happen this time under the Liberals? (Remember the Red Book and the GST cuts? The cuts didn’t happen until Harper.)
By Jimbo on 05.11.08 6:13 am
Good point and the`re still on that path.
Although many Liberals have said Dion and crew are not the Liberals of old I have a hard time biting on that one. The main platform plank still in todays Liberal election platform on crime is the `root cause of crime`. The Liberals have never addressed this issue and even after repeated requests Garth has yet to produce one thread on the root cause. Meanwhile international investors noticed and started leaving Canada in 2002. The Conservatives don`t even have root cause in their crime mandate so don`t expect the investors we need to change to a green economy to come back anytime soon.
Seeing is believing and we`re not seeing anything new.
no justice, no investment
If the Carbon Tax is only going to cost me 1.5 cents a litre, and will help clean up this mess we are leaving our grandchildren, then I say bring it on and keep the $100 check.
By wjp on 05.11.08 6:56 am
Carbon taxes is not going just cost you 1.5 cents a litre. It will also increase your food cots, your materials costs, everything in your life. It’s folly to believe in this scheme. Quite obviously, Stephane Dion is not in touch with the every day struggles of the working schmucks in Canada.
I’d iamgine “rural non-farmers” would have to drive an absurd number of miles every year to be significantly impacted by a carbon tax. If a few cents per litre is the dealbreaker on whether or not to pack up and move to town the latest runup in gas prices probably had them packing already.
I agree with “Judy ON” – I live in rural Ontario. The farmers abuse the use of their vehicles. Some go to each other’s houses to look at each other’s big trucks and kick the tires and have a beer. They go the local restaurants every morning for breakfast and, many of them have the boats, skidoos, and other toys to play with.
Enough with this plight of the farmers nonsense – they get plenty of support. Hey, how about farmers who are NOT farming any more and yet get tax breaks because they own farm land. They get breaks on their vehicles among other things.
Enough already!
By Catherine on 05.11.08 2:08 pm
You may well be right, but my comment was in response to Van’s post. Whatever it will cost, we will know prior to the vote. I think we have much bigger issues to deal with like non representation from our MPs and party dominance which affects every decision made in Ottawa. It would be nice to have our vote have meaning…personally I would prefer to see the party system abolished in Canada.
There you have it folks … the Dion Carbon Tax scheme will cause division in Canada between rural and urban, women versus men, children versus society, provinces versus Ottawa, the aged versus families, auto workers versus civil servants, poor versus the rich ……
I hope Dion has the ability to clearly explain why a Carbon Tax is beneficial for all Canadians … and not only tell us we should go on a costly guilt trip over our measly 2% contribution to global GHGs .. when China and India are spewing GHGs and pollutants without restraint and dwarfing anything that Canada can produce.
I want to see the revenue income tax treatment that purportedly will offset the carbon tax to make it ‘neutral’. Somehow I sense Dion’s Carbon Tax is intended to gore the AB oil sands, coal and fuel oil fired power stations and industries where hydrocarbons are a feedstock. A Liberal government must initially generate a surplus tax grab in order to buy Billion$$$$ of their Kyoto Carbon Credits, because Harper has reduced the federal tax base with his tax cuts to the GST and income tax.
What also concerns me is how the calculation is made to make it ‘revenue neutral’ for the federal government …. because it’s easy to slap on a full Carbon Tax, but if income taxes fall due to a recession or higher unemployment in say the Ontario car industry, the government will not be able to collect taxes from the unemployed.
Dion had better not stall too long in producing his Carbon/Income Tax scheme, otherwise he will be suspected of a ‘hidden agenda’ … like overtaxing Canadians so he can buy Billion$$$$ of Kyoto Carbon Credits from China, India, Russia ….. ya think ..??!!!
There has been no warming trend since 1998. This fact is not disputed by the IPCC.
The hypothesis that anthropogenic CO2 is baneful to the climate is clearly fallacious.
So to spend money on CO2 abatement is a criminal waste.
The proposed tax would increase costs and inflation.
What is the point of it?
By RICHARD MILNE on 05.11.08 12:59 pm
Another global holocaust denier who pretends there is no global warming trend .
Most of the increase in global average temperature over the past 50 years is due to the increase in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. This long-term increase in global average temperature will continue throughout the 21st century because of further increases in greenhouse gases. Yes, there will be year-to-year natural climate variations, with some colder years, but the long-term warming trend will continue.
An ice age is definitely not going to occur in the 21st century. Instead, we will all need to make very large reductions in emissions of greenhouse gases if we are to minimize dangerous anthropogenic climate change .
I’m glad Judy made the point about rural residents/farmers and their vehicles. These monster trucks, F350s and the like, were strictly commercial vehicles until fairly recently. Apparently at some point GM, Ford and Chrysler realized the car/truck buying public were even dumber than they had previously thought and they would buy these vehicles once they were tricked out like a fancy car. Now we have thousands of selfish numbskulls dropping the kids off at school or picking up groceries in vehicles large enough to haul 5 yards of concrete. I suspect the tipping point is near. Either through more tax on fuel or the rising cost of a barrel of oill these trucks will sit rusting in back yards with no hope in hell of anyone buying them. Then when farmers go to town it will be in a Honda Civic or Toyota Yaris. As it should be. A small percentage of Canadians will do the right thing on their own initiative the rest have to be hit in the wallet.
I would venture a guess that all of Team Garth’s members accept global warming/dimming as carved in stone
fact .
Yes, there are variations and number swings recorded over time .
This does not remove the fact that GW is real .
Con-bots on the other hand continue to whistle past the graveyard of facts facing the world over global warming .
The denial coterie are dead wrong .
Then when farmers go to town it will be in a Honda Civic or Toyota Yaris. As it should be. A small percentage of Canadians will do the right thing on their own initiative the rest have to be hit in the wallet.
By Wayne on 05.11.08 4:07 pm
Agree one hundred per cent .
Thanks
The whole point of the carbon tax is to make a direct link between the choices folks make and the cost of doing so. If Jones chooses to drive a gas guzzler he’ll ultimately be hit harder than Smith who chooses to drive a more fuel-efficient vehicle. The whole point is to attach a cost to the decision to live a more carbon-producing lifestyle.
Garth :
Bring on the brutality .
Meanwhile international investors noticed and started leaving Canada in 2002
By buddy, spare a dime on 05.11.08 1:30 pm
What’s your source, I’d like to learn more about the exit of foreign investors and the type of investments they dislike.
This could be the best short joke of the year!
****************************************
A 3-year-old boy examined his testicles while taking a bath.
‘Mum’, he asked, ‘Are these my brains?’
‘Not yet,’ she replied.
****************************************
“. . . it`s going to the banks as a preemptive bail out from the 40 year 0 down mortgage.”
Aha! Now the secret is out — the rich really DO get a lot richer at the expense of folk who don’t know any better, and can’t be bothered to learn why.
Don’t ’spose the nice bankers will change the rules a little, to let others play their filthy rich games?
Probably not, ‘coz it would hurt their Platinum-Plated Pension Packages!
“. . . Wouldn`t it be just a whole lot simpler to axe the GST and put that tax back on corporations, the higher the pollution indexed the more the company pays. The saving in GST management costs alone would light up Ottawa or fund a global university competition for a pollution free mag lift transportation system.”
It would be a helluva lot simpler, but it also requires requires action, clear planning and brains.
For brains, see lead-in joke!
“. . . when the BC Pine Beetle puts as much CO2 in the air as all the cars in Canada combined.”
So one life cycle (trees) finishes as pine beetles eat them, beetles die out because there is nothing left for them to eat anymore, all the original trees are re-planted, then a new batch of beetles come along and hence, the cycle repeats itself.
However, when a new cycle begins it will be without us — we will all have moved on to better things!
By buddy, spare a dime on 05.11.08 10:50 am
Credit where credit is due. Your letter, Buddy and my interjections!
BTW, the pine beetle would be wiped out, if there was six to eight consecutive weeks of -40C weather.
Most of us are too old for that, now!
we will all need to make very large reductions in emissions of greenhouse gases if we are to minimize dangerous anthropogenic climate change.
Men With Hats on 05.11.08 4:01 pm
The latest release of data clearly and unequivocally shows we are warming globally even though this year the Antarctic ice sheets are at a 30 year high and our cooler La Nina winter.
The list of causes of GHG goes way beyond a Cdn carbon tax or even international carbon credits.
As noted the BC Pine Beetle infestation that is spreading east puts more CO2 in the air than all the cars in Canada.
The tundra has enough trapped methane to equal 10 times the amount of CO2 put out by all the cars on the planet.
Rain forest around the world are shrinking releasing even more CO2.
Developing countries have shown no intention to stop increasing GHG levels with promises of a car in every garage. One suggestion is for developed countries to convert to a green economy which overall will have little effect compared to the list above. Besides no one has answered the question as to who it would be marketed to, the consumer far too far in debt to switch over in any numbers large enough to make any difference in the least.
“So give us an alternate plan.”
By Men With Hats on 05.11.08 11:28 am
I think it`s time everyone that`s interested in doing something other than nattering about climate change take a minute to scan my blog and if you have an alternate please give it too us.
By wjp on 05.11.08 11:53 am
Ask Garth if he has the freedom to speak his mind and disagree with his Liberal MP’s… publicly. Any and all of them including Dion. I’m betting he has that freedom. The question at this point is… where? And too, isn’t a democracy in practice a governmental system where votes are equal?
Take a look at this carbon tax. If its true what I assume and producers, never mind consumers will be taxed while tax cuts are around the corner in personal and corporate tax cuts including government spending initiatives on Green tech, is this not a direct challenge to the status quo of the most powerful and elitist corps in the world?
And are you telling me outright that Liberals are continually forced to vote as a block? At times they are. At times they aren’t and still do anyways. But the main of my argument is that Liberals can publically disagree with each other, debate openly, even criticize each other as a former Liberal MP and running candidate did last month (Frilla from Quebec) with Dions leadership and still be in the running. Can that happen in any other party? Greens maybe… but they haven’t succeeded enough to be tested in such a way.
Garth has complained many a time about how controlled MP’s are when it comes time to speak their mind with a controlled vote. Has he done it lately since joining the Libs? Has he once stated “I vote the Liberal party way brass tells me with a gun to my head”?
What I’ve heard Garth say is that behind closed doors, there is a circle formed where every MP has a microphone in front of them and and equal say with what comes up. Either we got snowed by Garth or its likely the most autonomous party of elected representatives in the current system we’ve got.
Don’t take my word for it. Ask Garth directly if democracy is practiced in the Liberal party. And if you can’t trust Garth, I ask you who can you trust? Harper? Layton? You saw the leadership convention as well as most other posters here. What did you see… Was it hijacked? Were delegates voting with guns to their head?
You make it sound as though elected MP’s that run and vote as a block thwart democracy. Do they? Are unresourced indies truly the answer… pick ‘em for commitees and ministers with a draw from a hat, go random does this work for you? Otherwise, what do you suggest to bring back democracy, I’d like to hear it.
I’ll say this much. The moment election financing was changed with Bill C-32 (correct me if I’m wrong) everything changed in terms of favors owed in regards to election financing regardless of dud links provided that are extrapolated to suggest otherwise. And parties will either practice democracy within their own system or they will not. Thats just how it is, so voter beware as always.
If but one party practices democracy within their own circle, democracy is alive, don’t kid yourself… regardless of controlled media spin that suggests otherwise, the likes of which Harper may has well fluffed Leonard Aspers Israeli owned Can West for its spin last week in smearing Liberals with propaganda antisemetic hatespeak.
Beyond the smoke and mirrors of this very debate about carbon tax, a decima/harris poll came out with 62% of Canadians in favor of a carbon tax. Is Dions stance an assault on democracy? Seriously… are you suggesting that there is no such thing as elected servants or public representation? Is that true? Really? Ask Garth how true that is and if you can’t trust his words, then who can you trust… yourself? No one? Only those who agree with you?
Democracy exists here in Canada. It just takes a much slower pace than people would like including myself, but thats just it. Its more than one persons opinion or say so that decides it. (thank God cause some peoples opinions really, really suck. Not singling you out, even though I disagree with you on this one)
By C. B. Innes on 05.11.08 12:20 pm
Wow, I spoke about farming, because Leasa did and you commented on it and then you come up with this? A lecture on globalization?
I grew up in a town of 800 people and spent my first 25 years there both in town and on the farm 14 miles away. I made a point about Rural voices needing to be heard or treated differently in some ways than urban, with farming as an example and I see there’s major resentment felt there by you in terms of a paint brush treating urban and rural all the same while different problems exist, which is true. Everything from bilingualism and multiculturalism and gun control and fish and wildlife laws and animal laws and poisons and metric and just about everything under the sun that inconveniently threatens the existence or easy way of life in “rural” Canada because of the tendacy to treat urban and rural the same… the question that should be asked is…. is it fair to do so? Should rural towns and people living in the sticks miles from their nearest neighbor deserve to be above the laws that urban people must follow? Can treating urban and rural differently under different laws somehow be considered as fair?
And who would exploit it… and even so, is that enough of an arguement to treat urban and rural differences the same way?
When you can put yourself in the shoes of urban life, get back to me and tell how and why. Don’t think for a minute that I won’t agree with you, at least on some of it. But the question I have for you, C.B. Innes, is this. Have you put yourself in those city shoes? Have you seen it from all angles from crime to environmental concerns to recreation, to licencing, to sentencing to just about everything… have you looked at the big picture especially so from the law makers of this nation or any other? Or are you just hot because you don’t like being treated like everyone else in every and all cases.
Your a sharp cookie (I mean it). Don’t offer to me/us complaint without solutions, you’re far more imaginative than this. Tell Garth and all the other MP’s and journalists following this blog what you think should be done and if I hear silence in terms of solutions than what am I supposed to think?
Lets debate! Its why we here, to exchange ideas (and yes, to complain), to inspire, for no one individual can do it alone. What do you think should be done with the issues you have in mind concerning urban/rural differences which are many and varied. I’m sincerely all ears.
In the meantime, people can walk for the mail in a town of 5,000 or less, they can bike, they can car pool, they can car share, they don’t have to drive 3/4 ton trucks to go a a coffee down town. And you speak of globalization as if its all bad. Take a look at what ends up on your plate and come back to me with complaint about how the variety isn’t to your liking and at the same time tell me how and why people don’t grow gardens for whats in season. (I guess were all to busy for a bit of local creation). See how popular it is to take away the choices of consumers even though some should seriously be taken away regardless… but which ones? The choice to drive a cigar boat or 120 ft. yaught built for 2? 35 room mansions built for a family of 3? CEO retirement packages that number in the hundreds of millions? Where does it begin and end…
Everything, C.B, from the copper thats sending this out to you, to the design behind the light sent through optics to get this same message to your house is here from globalization, I might add. you paint it as though trade, extraction and sharing of resources is a terrible thing but thats not it, is it…
Its the hoarding of wealth, the insatiable appetite of greed thats bad. Its the destruction of environments for a buck, putting a lowly monetary value on whats priceless that is wrong with this world. The shallow materiality pride and prestige lusts for. But the closer look reveals the true ugliness of it, that its beyond capitalism or any other kind of system or government that cherry picks which liberties must be lost or found. Its bad will, ugly goals pursued at the expense of all life and the environments that sustain it never mind our own, and the nutbar plans formed by people that only give a shit about themselves thats perverse with this world. C.B., its us. Only a few in a million have pure hearts. And only a few from the many use logic without bias. What do you expect, a system to be built that will force us to be saints? I’ve got news for you. Sin, wrong, disfunctionality, whichever word suits you, is a matter of choice and people blow it constantly. We all do. I haven’t met a person yet that didn’t have issues. Jesus died before I got here and while his teachings of peace, love, forgiveness and faith work, many and most if not all choose a different path. Until humanity perfects teaching and morality, there will be no oneness within the realm of functionality, only conflict and chaos. Expect more of the same even if the most powerful of all truths is revealled to the shame of many if not all. As populations grow and environments degrade, expect it to get ugly. Expect the large minority if not the majority under the most challenging of tests, et. el. survival, to fail and fail miserably.
Its not the system thats broken, C.B.. Its us and there’s plenty of shame to go around for everyone, politicians, non participants and voters alike and then some and the end of globalization won’t stop it. The end of trade won’t stop it. The end of the dollar might but even so, it is all about the allocation of wealth and the ideology of ownership that will decide it, not the scrapping of tech or trade. If you don’t know this without the presence of fairness and equality without predjudice then you haven’t thought it through.
If you have, lets hear the solutions in detail in terms of the system model or design that works best. By all means, if you have, then you should be the one talking while others listen.
If not… then lend an ear. The opinion of a sociologist might help and if you don’t like what the sociologist has to say, vote for someone else. Contrary to wjp has to say, your opinion and your vote does count… especially so in a digital democracy (bubble though it is) such as this one.
By Jimbo on 05.11.08 6:13 am
The New Cons cut the wrong tax, its as simple as that. Raise consumption taxes, cut income taxes, how hard is that to rationalize?
Wow – you can tell how good an idea it is by the number of trolls that showed up immediately after you posted. I’d say you’ve got a winner!
For the moron that decided that Ontario would lose because of big automobiles – what about an all-out effort to produce zip cars – and the infrastructure to support them (i.e. lanes similar to HOV lanes on the highways)? Use your brains – try to think positive for a change. This is our future, and our childrens’ future.
By Wayne on 05.11.08 4:07 pm
My point exactly.
Seeing as we’re talking about the environment and oil, thought I’d post the following.
It’s not just about 500 dead ducks
May 11, 2008 04:30 AM
Gillian Steward
Who could have known that a flock of ducks on its way home for the summer was fated to become a powerful symbol of all that is wrong with Alberta’s most vital industrial project – the tar sands?
As much of the world knows by now, about 500 of them died when they set down on a lake of oily goo, usually referred to by the petroleum industry and the government as a tailing pond – a much more neutral phrase than 22 square kilometres of toxic sludge produced when oil is extracted from the sandy soil.
And that’s just one tailing pond. There are almost a dozen and they cover about 55 square kilometres. Within 10 years, when all the planned tar sands projects are up and running, they will cover three times that area.
At about the same time the ducks were dying, Alberta Deputy Premier Ron Stevens was winging his way home from a trip to Washington where he went to great pains to convince U.S. politicians that oil extracted from the sands is not “dirty.”
That’s how it’s being described stateside by those alarmed about the environmental impact of these massive projects. This matters a lot to the powers that be in Alberta because if enough Americans think our oil is dirty, they may stop importing it. Thanks to the unfortunate ducks, Stevens was left with a lot more than egg on his face.
It’s a story line that could have come out of a Robert Redford movie: Eager Canadian politician goes to Washington to spin a story about his government’s strict environmental policies; as the senators and members of Congress consider what he has to say, photos of ducks drowning in poisonous muck pop up on CNN and the Internet.
The tailing pond belongs to Syncrude – a joint venture of Imperial Oil, Petro-Canada and others, and the world’s largest tar sands operation. The poisonous pond was built in 1973 and, according to Syncrude, the ducks died because a system of small cannons designed to issue warning shots was not running due to recent snowstorms.
This sounds like a reasonable explanation until one asks why on earth hugely profitable corporations and a wealthy provincial government couldn’t come up with something better than a contraption that is no more than a complex scarecrow. And that begets an even bigger question: Why have these toxic lakes been allowed to fester for so long?
They line both sides of the Athabasca River, which flows into the Mackenzie Basin. Many are already leaking and creating their own tainted wetlands. Minnows dropped into the ponds die within 96 hours. Residents of Fort Chipewyan, which lies downstream from the tar sands projects, have long complained about the weird-looking fish they pull out of the water and the high incidence of certain cancers in their community.
Talk about canaries in a coal mine. The fate of the 500 ducks is symbolic of much deeper problems when it comes to the environmental consequences of Canada’s largest industrial project.
Unfortunately, most of the CEOs and politicians, including Prime Minister Stephen Harper who called the death of the ducks a “tragedy,” seem more concerned about polishing up their tarnished reputations than actually doing anything to lessen or limit the environmental quagmire that caused the deaths of the hapless ducks in the first place.
Premier Ed Stelmach has called for an investigation. But don’t hold your breath – it will likely focus on why the scarecrow didn’t work rather than what lies beneath it.
Gillian Steward is a Calgary writer and journalist, and former managing editor of the Calgary Herald.
I agree with Brain & Judy when it comes to farmers. I was raised on a farm, have siblings still farming, take a trip yearly to visit elderly parents on those farms. I have seen first hand how gas gusling vehicles are a driven for coffee breaks, lunch etc. I have seen with my own eyes that going 15 miles to the cafe for breakfast is not a problem with them. Sometimes there are 3 different family vehicles going & none have any plans to car pool.
My brother & his wife have over 250 head of cattle & the reason for having so many is the price they get for their beef. It is costing them more to make hay & feed their cattle than a steer is worth on the market. They probably get less than 10% for their meat than what the marketers when it hits the groceries shelves.
Did I tell you that they both work full time jobs to earn a living to keep their farms? Did I tell you that they are part of the ones who think nothing of going to town for a coffee?
When I ask what their plans are for retirement, they have none. They tell me they can’t afford retirement. Farmers are having it pretty rough & the price of fuel is eating away daily. Wheat & different seed crops are subject to the weather big time. They spend the money to work the fields, get the crops in the ground fertilize & quite often, lose it all to drought, flooding, hail & the severe tornado’s that are becoming a norm. I am talking about Mb.
You see my brother & his family have to at one point will have to tighten their belts & conserve fuel. They have to. did I mention that they are part of the problem.
Regards,
A carbon tax is transparent and easy to understand; the government simply imposes a tax per ton of carbon emitted, which is easily translated into a tax per kWh of electricity, gallon of gasoline or therm of natural gas. By contrast, the prices for carbon set under a cap-and-trade system will vary with market fluctuations and be impossible even for big business (let alone small businesses or consumers) to predict. A cap-and-trade system will require a complex and difficult to understand market structure in order to balance the many competing interests and ensure that the trading system minimizes abuse and maximizes real carbon reductions.
Contrary to wjp has to say, your opinion and your vote does count
By Jimbo on 05.11.08 6:13 am
Latest Nanos poll shows the none of the above (undecided) surfing the Big Mo.
The only vote that counts is the one you don`t cast, maybe then we`ll get some change out of the land of promises.
NAP
Funny how the CPC supporters stick like glue to the CPC talking points and ignore facts. The Liberals gave over $100 million in tax cuts – more than Harper did…..ah, but don’t let some facts get in the way of a partisan rant without checking info. Harper is a liar and yet you insist on taking his word for everything.
As far as income tax cuts – we lost “A YEAR” in cuts because Harper increased taxes and then reduced them back to where they were – I feel quite cheated actually.
Try reading other things besides the pitiful CPC website that appear to be done by partisan “kids” – no class, no style and only negativity – pathetic. I hope they don’t pay too much for it because they’re not getting their money’s worth.
Well looks like a lovely pig pile going on. I am surprised by the remarks regarding a few farmers who have large vehicles. I guarantee I saw a heck of lot more abuse from the city folks than the FEW farmers who are left in this country could ever manage. I know a guy who lives in Burlington, works 10 Klm from home and bought a new F-150 so he could haul his high horsepower snowmobile to Quebec 2 or 3 times per winter. Where he can actually use the thing.
Many must think that todays farmers can still make do with the old F-150 that grandpa left them. Sorry folks, it don’t cut it on many farms these days. ex. an F-150 can’t handle a modern stock trailer full of cattle. Can’t haul a tri axle trailer and 200 HP tractor.
If you think farmers are doing so well, why do you suppose the buyout for brood sows is happening? Why has the real value of farms in Saskatchewan declined for decades? When you drive out from the city in Ontario did you ever wonder why there are so many dilapidated farm properties? I know a guy in Ontario who owns his farm and machinery debt free and he is making $12 per market hog.
On top of that, they can’t even sell lots to supplement their income unless the gov. approves and they pay a very large severance fee. So much for property rights.
You should also bear in mind that some farmers inherited properties that have been in the family for generations.
Authoritarianism creeps into culture of Harper government
http://www.harperindex.ca/ViewArticle.cfm?Ref=00147
Killing CAIRS database makes it easier to delay, obfuscate and withhold information – journalists.
Chilling lawsuits, misquotes and outright lies
Last week, StraightGoods.ca ran an article by Duff Conacher of Democracy Watch, about how the Harper government deliberately misquoted him in the debate on the issue. For instance, on April 16, government House leader Peter Van Loan told Parliament “Mr Speaker, let us remember that this was a dispute initiated in the courts by the Conservative Party of Canada because of the unequal treatment of the Conservative Party compared with other parties, including the NDP… It has been going on for years. Duff Conacher said that on television. He said it is legal.”
Duff Conacher saw red when he heard of this.
“Peter Van Loan lied when he claimed that I said the Conservatives’ TV ad spending scheme during the last election was legal. In fact, I said very clearly that I believe the scheme was illegal,” he wrote. “Mr. Van Loan owes me and Democracy Watch an apology for so blatantly abusing our good name in trying to excuse the Conservatives’ dangerously undemocratic activities.”
I didn’t know that Jean Brault, Paul Coffin, and this Chuck Guite were Conservatives.
Question? Does Harper and his cons know these three thieves are one of them?
I kept thinking that Liberals were thieves, here it turns out to be Cons. Hmmm, interesting. And now, the Biker Gangs and Max Bernier’s friends and family.
Dion certainly is charismatic. Dion seems to be a man of honor with the best interests of all Canadians.
Should we break the news to Harper that he needs to stop saying that all Liberals are liars and theives or does he have enough on his plate right now?
No wonder he was begging for an election. All of this could have been swept under the table and Canadians wouldn’t know the difference…until after we all voted Conservative. Wow.
Harper and his Cons are scarey.
Maybe he’ll tell us that it is none of our business.
KPN:5.22pm
That was my point this morning when I said That the time for action has come and the feds need to step in and clean up the mess to protect the NWT which still is a federal responsibility. Any cleanup costs should then be passed on to the shareholders who might have some interesting ideas at the next shareholders meeting. Most of us teach our children to clean as you go because we can’t afford new dishes and clothes every week. We need to change our business thinking the same way. If it cost $200 a barrel for tar sands oil then we wouldn’t be raping the land to get it. If we applied the same rules to chinese goods then our store shelves would be empty as they would not qualify to sell here. It is embaressing to say that in the 10 or so years this has been a front page issue, Canada is the only industrialised country to neither clean up our mess or invest in alternative cleaner solutions.
For those that preach patience to hear what the political parties propose I say that is all we ever do, WAIT! If these ideas are so good then just announce them instead of spinning the idea. Every time I hear tax scheme I think income tax which is designed to tax those fortunate enough to afford it but in reality the richest 10% end up paying virtually no tax while the working poor in the middle pay more than their share. There has never been a proposal on the evironment yet in this country that doesn’t exclude some big corporations. While we can’t change indvidual choice the simple ideas I proposed this morning along with hundreds of others can change society in positive ways without hurting those less fortunate or live in the vast remote areas of the country where we already pay a high price (trucking both ways, empty on the way back)of living there with no simple solution except lots of railroads in sight.
Most everybody here are promoting Dion’s Carbon/Income Tax scheme based on future benefits, but everybody ignores the immediate backlash that such a taxation scheme will unleash.
The CAW cannot support such a Carbon Tax because it will further devastate the jobs of their members in Oshawa, Oakville, St.Thomas and Windsor as well as the many auto parts jobs in SW Ontario.
Here we will have the Dion Liberals promoting a punitive Carbon Tax intended for Canadians to meet their Kyoto commitments while starting 32% behind target. A Carbon Tax starting in say November ‘08 under a Liberal government, will not take hold for several years as people attempt to adjust their lifestyles.
Meanwhile, Canada will remain well behind it’s Kyoto commitments due to the 32% excess Liberal GHGs, with no way to substantially reduce them other than buying Billion$$$$ of Kyoto Carbon Credits to mitigate our failure.
I have no doubt that a Dion Liberal government would purchase Billion$$$$ of Kyoto Carbon Credits from China, etc, and Canadians are told that is the only way we can meet our Kyoto commitments.
Would Canadians agree and accept a Dion Liberal government purchasing Billion$$$ of Kyoto Carbon Credits from China, while factories are shutting down due to the onerous Liberal Carbon Tax and Canadians are losing their jobs to Chinese competition being subsidized by a traitorous Liberal government.
Canadians will get the government they deserve if they vote for a destructive Carbon Tax ……
One cannot compare apples (US) to oranges (Canada), but rather get ideas as to infrastructure costs on what must be done immediately, and those that can wait for now.
For instance, when an overpass collapsed in Quebec a few years ago — I seem to recall a few people died, but I’m not sure — how much would the cost have been to check it out, and put it into better shape before it happened?
Further, who is responsible for paying? Is it a mixture of the feds. and provinces? Have our feds. been putting money aside for these projects?
The link is an estimate for the US only.
http://tinyurl.com/58t48z
Contrary to wjp has to say, your opinion and your vote does count
By Jimbo on 05.11.08 6:13 am
Contrary to what Jimbo has to say, your vote only counts for the party leader which gives you little representation from your MP since he is told how and when to vote…so if you are happy voting for the same, be my guest, I would prefer to see a system where my vote means something. the last two parties in power have done very little but lie, deceive and manipulate the people, you keep voting but no change, somewhere someone told me that is insanity.
Selling “lots to supplement their income” would make them a property developer, no? The last thing we need are more houses plunked down in the middle of farmeland.
I’d imagine the truth is more along the lines that some farmers are doing well, some are doing so-so and some are failing; rather the way its always been. Given how much farms fetch when they sell, typically to other farmers
there’s still a little money floating around.
As to farmers buying large, and expensive, trucks to haul stuff most of the ones I know hire that work out to people who do it for a living.
Gee Harry: Harper et al are not doing such a good job of keeping auto jobs here. His enviro plan has not stopped any job losses. And can you tell me how much GHG’s have risen in the last 2.5 years since Harper took over?
And how much more will they rise due to Harper’s visionless “intesity based” targets?
And how much more gas prices will rise while Harper continues to subsidize oil and gas barons?
I think I will listen to Dion’s carbon tax policy.
I know I trust him more than I trust Harper (the denier).
And if you don’t like it–it must be good.
It takes three barrels of WATER to make one barrel of OIL -Giving up our life giving water to make oil for profit screams profit over people and the ecosystems we need to live.
The quote “we do not own our environment we only borrow it from our childern and grandchildren’ was never truer than here in Alberta, as we work to find a balance between our economy and the eco-system.
As one Environmentalist recently declared “we need to utilize all our options including market based approaches as well as command and control techniques like taxes”
One size does not fit all for us to ensure our environmental future but we do need leadership on this urgent issue, something we are not getting from the current Harper Regime.
I’ve just been surfing newspapers tonite; I found it interesting that journalists are saying or Harper is saying that the Liberals did it first.
Geez, the Con’s New Gov’t should be setting a New Standard’ if they want to be known as ‘New’.
Max Bernier, I am confused…was Madame C his spouse or was she a common law girlfriend-ex girlfriend whatever… I wonder what’s in this relationship for her and why ’she said’ or ‘he said’ ‘goodbye nice knowing you’.
Stockwell Day thinks it’s too difficult to do a criminal record check on Government MP’s, their relationships, their families, their children, their friends…yet he demands Canadians to be ‘tough on crime’. What’s up with this? Apparently Jean Chritien has been on a photo op with this Chamas criminal.
As I was reading about this story, I was thinking…and wondering…was Chamas under investigation at the time? Was he charged with 10 counts of illegal guns? Was he charged with Tax Evasion of almost a million dollars?
I will certainly not stand for corruption. So, was Chamas a suspect and charged criminally when he had his photo op with Chrieien?
Somehow, this seems like a ’smoke and mirror’ defense for our New Government.
So, if the Liberals did it, it’s o.k.? Can’t understand the logic here.
Please could someone explain this line to me. Thanking you in advance.
I am ready to become an advocate of DEMOCRACY. Although I am not a leader, I will follow someone who has a concrete plan of derailing this Con Gang and allowing Canadians their rightful spot in history.
I have had enough. Thanks.
When all of us are driving to work tomorrow, with no one else in a vehicle built for four or five, on a road jam packed with other four seat vehicles with one person inside, idling in the Tims drive thru for 10 minutes, we can think about how those damn farmers are ruining the planet, and they need to be the ones to change, not us.
Kerry
Thank you Brain ~ you’re my kinda people!! ~ your friend…
Comrade Okie- thanks for the songs! I replyed on yesterday’s, late, as soon as I listened to them…new favourites, for sure, friend. I’d welcome any more. Take care, ok?
If all public transportation vehicles were limited to 150hp, would that not decrease carbon emissions? The car I drive has 130hp, that is still enough to give me a ticket for racing on the highway. I don’t see the need for all the excess hp that car manufactures are producing.
By Harry S on 05.11.08 7:33 pm
The CAW cannot support such a Carbon Tax because it will further devastate the jobs of their members in Oshawa, Oakville, St.Thomas and Windsor as well as the many auto parts jobs in SW Ontario.
Harry
It is not the fault of the CAW that the American auto manufacturers left their brains on the curb a long time ago.
Toyota managed to see the future, Prius; Mercedes the Smart Car, Renault etc. The writing was on the wall and I feel for those workers that have lost their jobs and may lose their jobs.
I realize they do not decide on product but your argument that the carbon tax is the the evil nail in the coffin is neither logical or practical. People drive sales not the CAW or a Carbon tax and it is time that we considered a way of transitioning our industry into to something beyond stupid decisions by large inflexible companies.
I understand this is painful but this is reality and it is time the CAW dealt with the known product – we consumers can no longer afford – gas guzzlers.
we can think about how those damn farmers are ruining the planet, and they need to be the ones to change, not us.
Kerry
BY KERRY BUSSE ON 05.11.08 8:18 PM
Speaking for myself, I have no grudge with farmers and I respect them. But I don’t like selfish stupidity (I don’t suppose anyone would admit to liking it). Judy commented earlier on farmer’s driving to town, sometimes more than once a day for coffee or lunch, etc. If those trips are made in honking great pick up trucks that’s my definition of selfish.
This type of behavior, driving oversized vehicles, is a thousand times more prevalent in town but I don’t think that let’s rural Canadians off the hook.
I’d be really surprised if anyone commenting here were anti-farmer. We all have an obligation to reduce our carbon footprint.
I don’t know that people were necessarily picking on farmers totally because they’re farmers, rather the issue is about people who drive vehicles likely to be larger and more of a gas-guzzler than they really need.
Then you get into the issue of whether or not they should be accorded any extra consideration because a carbon tax might impact more on them. On a personal note I’m amazed at the number of people who can’t seem to live without a 4×4.
By Bonnie N BC on 05.11.08 8:53 pm
Harry …. It is not the fault of the CAW that the American auto manufacturers left their brains on the curb a long time ago.
I realize they do not decide on product but your argument that the carbon tax is the the evil nail in the coffin is neither logical or practical. People drive sales not the CAW or a Carbon tax and it is time that we considered a way of transitioning our industry into to something beyond stupid decisions by large inflexible companies.
I understand this is painful but this is reality and it is time the CAW dealt with the known product – we consumers can no longer afford – gas guzzlers.
……………………………………………………….
Right on, Bonnie N BC …. your maternal instincts to save Mother Earth for future generation trumps the jobs of tens of thousands of Ontario auto and associated parts workers and their families. Our MP Garth must be crapping his britches over this Carbon Tax because many of his constituents work in the auto industry.
Influential auto workers in Ontario will have to make a Yes/No decision whether to impose a Carbon Tax on their product .. gas guzzlers … come the next election. Somehow I suspect that CAW auto workers will overwhelmingly vote NO to a Dion Liberal Carbon Tax … and that will mean goodbye to principled MP Garth …. unless the women of Ontario get out there and vote for a Carbon Tax and to hell with men’s jobs … after all where are your feeeelings for the planet and man-made global warming attacking Mother Earth and future generations of children.
I think Dion will have to immediately precipitate an election in September when the Parliament reconvenes .. and run on his Carbon/Income Tax scheme … and to hell with Ontario auto workers … because the planet needs saving, and if that means lost jobs in Ontario so be it …. right Garth ..???!!!!!
Hi Charles- thanks so much! especially for the video on Palestine. I’d like to ask you some questions sometime? How much more do people need to hear? . . . Thank you. I cannot, in my heart, as a Christian, wish them congratulations on that birthday…
By linda on 05.11.08 1:43 am
Hello Linda. Sorry it took me awhile to catch up.
The Mossad’s (Israeli Secret Service) motto is “By Way Of Deception, Thou Shalt Do War”.
The conflict in Iraq is going very well for Israel, primarily because there should be no war at all. Fooling others to do one’s dirty work is deception, pure and simple.
Of course, further misinformation and lies are flowing as freely as the oil from Iran being a clear danger to “stability”, so dubya (and McCain if he replaces dubya) is making noises about doing naughty things with Tehran, and keeping wars going as long as possible.
As long as the US, Canada and others stay in that part of the world, stability will not happen. Most here already know that Russia, then China will protect Iran, which is probably why the US will bark a lot, but won’t bite.
I understand the official US death toll in Iraq is above 4,000; unofficially, it’s around 25,000, and the total — including Iraqis — is over 100,000.
Our forthcoming election is an excellent opportunity for Cdns. to ask harpo and others straight out:
If there are no WMD in that region, why are so many Cdn. soldiers being trained, then sent to fight and die for nothing? Because that is all that is happening.
The answer, which will never be told publicly, is that this whole mess is for Israel’s benefit. That’s all.
It should be noted that Israel is in the top ten list of countries with nukes — not many other places in the Middle East have them. Why?
I don’t understand enough about Zionism, but I believe they are the driving force behind all this, although it cannot be proven.
Worldwide bloggers can keep folk informed as to how the Palestinian people are suffering and are losing so much of their land.
Meanwhile international investors noticed and started leaving Canada in 2002
By buddy, spare a dime on 05.11.08 1:30 pm
What’s your source, I’d like to learn more about the exit of foreign investors and the type of investments they abandoned?
Harry: Who are you trying to fool? Auto sector job losses, especially with the big 3, have been forecast for several years. Nothing to do with carbon tax.More to do with lack of product ingenuity. No job losses at Toyota and Honda. In fact, job increases with both manufacturers.
Do you really think a carbon tax initiative is going to shut down Toyota and Honda?
Hi Garth,
I was justs reading an article about Stockwell Day saying that it would be too complicated and overkill to have all families and relationships exploited through security clearances for MP’s their families and their friends.
It seems to me, that Stockwell Day will go to all extremes to condemn murder by RCMP in the Polish immigrant case, yet he sees no harm in assuming that all Cons are honest, law abiding, hardworking citizens who deserve a break because, in his analytical thinking capacity, he thinks it would be overkill to have a security check done on Con MP’s. Go figure. What’s up with this?
If the big 3 could ever get there heads straight ,build cars with no more than 150hp,improve on quality(instead of building crap that falls apart) they would have a car that would compete and also produce jobs.
Oh my goodness, I just read that Max Bernier’s ex spouse, ex girlfriend or significant other, accompanied Max on a foreign trip and she actually got to attend the closed door meetings at Taxpayers expense.
Somehow, I can’t figure it out, why this would be acceptable and appropriate with the New Government. Is this something new or Legislated Law that Liberals missed sitting on their hands and why wouldn’t Harper call this piece of legislation a ‘non confidence’ vote and challenge or at least inform Canadian Taxpayers the graciousness of slipping this legislation through without Senate Debate.
I think that I am rambling, yeah, I’m confused with Harper approving Biker
Dion had better not stall too long in producing his Carbon/Income Tax scheme, otherwise he will be suspected of a ‘hidden agenda’ … like overtaxing Canadians so he can buy Billion$$$$ of Kyoto Carbon Credits from China, India, Russia ….. ya think ..??!!!
By Harry S on 05.11.08 3:59 pm
Harry – you better call John Baird again and get some new talking points – you are getting so monotinous – he may be with his mother today, so perhaps you can call him tomorrow.
About the CAW – the motor companies have had over 20 years to come up with solutions.
Necessity is the law of invention – remember we had an industrial revolution – that’s over. Now it’s time for a new one – out of necessity.
By Harry S on 05.11.08 9:15 pm
Harry
Perhaps I was not as diplomatic as I should be I suggest to you we need to find a middle ground. In fact, this may be the real issue between us all in Canada.
My frustration is you continue to spin the truth. You said the CAW will never except a carbon tax. They will rail against the carbon believers. What does a carbon tax have to do with the reality that large monolithic companies only look to share holder profit and never looked at sustainability and most importantly their workers??
Harry, you know I am correct – CAW has been used by the automakers and your fearless Conservative leader does nothing but let Neon fiddle and Rome burn.
I’d like to learn more about the exit of foreign investors and the type of investments they abandoned?
By Ron p on 05.11.08 9:36 pm
Statscan has most of it. The only investments of substance is in globally priced raw resources of which Cdn government has very little affect on. There was investment in Linamar years ago with a big tax dollar subsidy just like the recent Ford deal. Other than that there was some in BC infrastructure years ago under PPP. The next big economic push for BC is the Pacific Gateway Project, another PPP. So far it has both provincial and federal funding requiring private investment to proceed. It`s been dead in the water for months and will sink soon.
By slg on 05.11.08 10:15 pm
Harry – you better call John Baird again and get some new talking points – you are getting so monotinous – he may be with his mother today, so perhaps you can call him tomorrow.
About the CAW – the motor companies have had over 20 years to come up with solutions.
Necessity is the law of invention – remember we had an industrial revolution – that’s over. Now it’s time for a new one – out of necessity.
………………………………..
I bet Dalton McGuinty will be tickled pink to hear about how Liberal Dion is going to gore the Ontario auto industry with his Carbon Tax scheme … and tens of thousands of Ontario jobs lost to satisfy Dion’s desire to save the planet from Canada’s 2% GHG production!!!
Oh it’s gonna be a jolly time in Ontario once the Liberal shit hits the Ontario fan … LOL
Thanks for the comments, Charles. I would not consider the realities there, at first. Tried to debate it with my Palestinian friends. And, little by little, with much reading, watching and conversation, I came to learn the history and understand the present. I think that short, powerful video you posted yesterday, with words from people in power- and much smarter than I- is so important to see. I implore people to watch it. 3 minutes. Especially, those who buy the msm propaganda. You know what they say about contempt prior to investigation…It has enough power, that video, to open the mind a tiny bit. And that’s all it takes to begin. One man’s terrorist IS another’s freedom fighter, I know that now. (Take note Ezra, Mr. Carter is not among those speaking on this. Although thankfully, many of us stand with him on this issue.) Hope you are well and take care, Charles.
I’d like to learn more about the exit of foreign investors and the type of investments they abandoned?
By Ron p on 05.11.08 9:36 pm
btw it`s not only international investors leaving since 2002 but jobs as well. Ontario will soon be over the half million mark. The historical facts and most recent data indicates Ontario will lose another half to 1 million over the next five years. The `New Government` that is perceived to be tight with big business has so far failed to restore international investor confidence. While this started 40 years ago, every consecutive government made it worse so 2002 is the date the tide turned and it`s been downhill since. The jobs created in Canada over the last few years are either in raw resources or a spin off or are public service or tax funded thanks to increased royalties from raw resources and nothing to do with Cdn government policies not withstanding the cash injections of tax dollars.
I previously mentioned as signs of some stability shows in the US economy, resource prices and government revenue will drop. Over the course of the last week it followed that course. Perhaps consumer spending stats coming out this week might speed up the process, buckle up.
I’d like to learn more about the exit of foreign investors and the type of investments they abandoned?
By Ron p on 05.11.08 9:36 pm
btw it`s not only international investors leaving since 2002 but jobs as well. Ontario will soon be over the half million mark. The historical facts and most recent data indicates Ontario will lose another half to 1 million over the next five years. The `New Government` that is perceived to be tight with big business has so far failed to restore international investor confidence. While this started 40 years ago, every consecutive government made it worse so 2002 is the date the tide turned and it`s been downhill since. The jobs created in Canada over the last few years are either in raw resources or a spin off or are public service or tax funded thanks to increased royalties from raw resources and nothing to do with Cdn government policies not withstanding the cash injections of tax dollars.
I previously mentioned as signs of some stability shows in the US economy, resource prices and government revenue will drop. Over the course of the last week it followed that course. Perhaps consumer spending stats coming out this week might speed up the process, buckle up.
no justice, no investment
Obviously Dion is onto a good thing. Today is Mother’s Day…Tomorrow should be Mother Earth’s Day and everyday thereafter.
Dion has a clear vision and is preparing to take a stand on Carbon Tax.
Well, I stand by Dion because I believe the climate is changing and I believe in my future and the future of my grown children and now we need to react for the future of our dear grandchildren.
Harper doesn’t seem to think there is a climate change movement. It seems as though he is so busy telling Canadian Taxpayers that nothing they do or decide is ‘nobody’s business’.
I love this line…’nobody’s business. LOL. I’m going to start using his line and observe the reactions of those I interact with daily.
I don’t have very much money; however, I will be donating to the Liberal Party of Canada on May 15 or 16/08.
Just to solidify my decision, the Conservative, I mean Saskatchewan Party’s Secretary to Premier Brad Wall just call NDP member, Deb, a ‘DUMB BITCH’ in the legislative Parliament. He said he was sorry and that he shouldn’t have even thought or spoken the stupid words ‘DUMB Bitch’ out loud. He will remain an MP for Cutknife constituents, but he has resigned being Premier Brad Wall’s Secretary. Obviously, he’s very sorry for calling Deb a ‘Dumb Bitch’ that is now in the Hansard records.
Dion certainly had a six sense about not being baited into a Harper induced bully election through the Non Confidence votes he dangled in front of the opposition parties. I quess he should have defeated himself if he wanted to save his butt. What was he thinking?>||
Dion, I’ll do whatever it takes to get the word out and inform my family, friends and associates the games the Cons have been playing with our minds and Canadian Taxpayers’ money.
Thanks Garth and thank you Dion for continuing believing in the Canadian Way of Life.
and to hell with Ontario auto workers … because the planet needs saving, and if that means lost jobs in Ontario so be it …. right Garth ..???!!!!!
BY HARRY S ON 05.11.08 9:15 PM
Harry, if you are working in the auto sector I can imagine you’d be quite upset at the prospect of job losses. But this has become a tedious complaint.
As has been mentioned already the Big 3 have built crap for years. For a long time we didn’t know it was crap because we didn’t have Japanese imports. Once the imports got established here it took years for the domestic manufacturers to improve the quality of their vehicles in order to compete. A lot of people would say North American makers have never matched the standard of Japanese makers.
I don’t mean to sound trite but this is another case of adapt or perish. It may not be the unions fault that the employers have been too slow or too arrogant to make timely changes.
But factories cranking out useless vehicles are going to close. The question is, ‘what can be done to adapt’ to the changes? Do you honestly think these jobs are more important than the health of present and future generations?
I gather buggy whip makers were really pissed off when the first cars came down the pike.
and to hell with Ontario auto workers … because the planet needs saving, and if that means lost jobs in Ontario so be it …. right Garth ..???!!!!!
BY HARRY S ON 05.11.08 9:15
News Flash!
Buggy Whip Makers face huge lay offs!! Blame placed on horseless carriage makers.
Harry, the health of future generations is more important than jobs in a sector which is too slow or stupid to adapt.
It’s obvious that there will be a need for thousands more buses, more trains, wind turbines. And cars that don’t pollute or pollute less. And on it goes.
No one owes me a job and no one owes any member of the CAW a job.
If you are faced with job losses in your field I can understand that you would be concerned. But global warming isn’t an elaborate scheme to close down factories.
This is our future, and our childrens’ future.
By JLW on 05.11.08 5:17 pm
And yes and here is old suzukite argument “think of our children’s future”.
So, what are YOU doing in your own personal life to respect the environment?
Did you use disposable diapers? Are you living in home that is bigger than 1500 sq feet? How many trees are your property? How big is(are) your vehicle(s)? How often do you buy prepackaged foods? How often do you buy new electronics? How often do you replace your furniture? How often do you replace your clothing (to stay trending)? How many Gameboy/Xbox/etc games do your children go through? Do you fly for you vacations? How often do you use the dry-cleaners?
The number of postings on Garth’s blog that are in denial of the obvious is quite amazing. Regardless of whether there is a carbon tax or not, world demand for oil will continue to rise while oil production will soon peak and then go into decline….meaning that anything that uses oil will be escalating in price. Economics 101. Scarey? Sure….especially when we have a Conservative government that doesn’t have a clue what its doing, and has absolutely no vision for the future – other than to create a Herr Harper dictatorship to replace democracy in this country.
The fate of auto plants producing large, inefficient vehicles is already known…they will be mothballed unless the companies that own them produce smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. The world price of oil will continue to rise pushing the price at the pumps up, regardless of whether there’s a carbon tax or not. Rather than get wound up about something that is obvious its much better to focus on the opportunities that declining supplies of oil represent. Hopefully that is where Dion’s plan will take us.
It doesn’t take too much brain power to imagine a world where gasoline for consumer vehicles is a thing of the past. The AirCar is scheduled to be launched to the public in Europe this year and in the US by 2010. Tata, the huge Indian company, just signed a deal to bring the AirCar to market in India. Its a brilliant concept – powering an engine with compressed air that can be replenished by plugging the car into your home outlet…an outlet that could be powered by your own wind or solar power.
It doesn’t take much brain power to envision a world where all new homes produce their own power through wind and solar…and put the excess produced back into the power grid.
Homes that are completely off the power grid are becoming more and more common. I saw a home featured last night that is 6 miles from the closest power line. A beautiful home with the most well equipped, energy efficient kitchen that could be imagined.
As this technology gains popularity the price for it will drop, including the retrofitting of homes.
Rather than use up fossil fuels to produce plastic we could easily meet our packaging needs by recycling existing plastic rather than filling landfill sites with it.
Small commuter cars running on electricity will be coming to market in the near future. Even monolithic companies like GM with their Volt are well into this technology. In the short term it is easy to envision cars being recharged through home-based solar or wind…heck you can buy an electric lawnmover now that recharges with a solar panel.
Will these changes cause some displacement and realignment of the workforce? Absolutely. And, if we have a government of vision we can realign and reapply the skills those workers have in producing new, green technologies. This will never happen under a Conservative government that has clearly shown over the past 2.5 years that it completely lacks vision and innovation. Their solutions for everything are to cut taxes and throw more people in jail. Duh…that’s forward thinking.
From what Garth is saying on his blog it sounds like Dion will be launching an INTEGRATED policy platform. One that addresses environmental issues, sustainability (another word for continued economic performance), and social justice. I am intrigued by this notion since no government in Canadian history has ever done this before.
It is time for a change.
All car companies need to get their heads on straight and focus on building vehicles that do not consume fossil fuels at all. Period.
Better to devote one’s limited energies to something that everyone can agree on….this world needs renewable energy and a massive investment in research in renewable energy.
By Brent Fullard on 05.10.08 10:09 pm
Going all the way back to the beginning of this blog as I didn’t have time yesterday to comment, I have to say I can’t even agree with this statement. Perhaps in the Liberal circle you can find consensus Mr. Fullard, but I have to say that over in the obscure world of the righties, there is none.
I have been wrestling with the right recently and have to say there is nothing in the realm of alternative energy that they support. I tried wind, solar, vegetable oil based biofuel, conventional ethanol, hydro and even skirted nuclear briefly. These things were attacked like someone showing up at a southern baptist evangelical association meeting on a Sunday afternoon wearing a red suit adorned with horns, tail and embroidered with the numbers 666.
These things threaten their narrow conventional viewpoints and are targeted for fear mongering. The result is as usual, closed minds and irrational fears.
Everyone can agree? I don’t think so.
I was justs reading an article about Stockwell Day saying that it would be too complicated and overkill to have all families and relationships exploited through security clearances for MP’s their families and their friends.
It seems to me, that Stockwell Day will go to all extremes to condemn murder by RCMP in the Polish immigrant case, yet he sees no harm in assuming that all Cons are honest, law abiding, hardworking citizens who deserve a break because, in his analytical thinking capacity, he thinks it would be overkill to have a security check done on Con MP’s. Go figure. What’s up with this?
By Sandy Canchuk on 05.11.08 9:56 pm
This issue is an excellent example of Conservative values. They believe that for them, an exclusive club of political winners, security clearance for family members and close associates would be too intrusive. They have the entitlement to associate with whoever they see fit with no consequences.
Cabinet ministers only apparently have one security check and that is prior to becoming a minister. After that they can secretly associate with anyone they want. It is true that CSIS or the RCMP will notify them of questionable associations but it is the Prime Minister that makes the final determination as to whether the association is acceptable.
At the same time they demand that such security checks be carried out on thousands of members of the public service and their families and reviewed on a regular basis.
The issue reflects their disdain for the professional wing of government for which they have an ideological based distrust.
This is the first time that we have had a Prime Minister and government that is opposed to Canada as a state and seeks to dismantle the state and create a society controlled by the most powerful corporations.
“Should rural towns and people living in the sticks miles from their nearest neighbor deserve to be above the laws that urban people must follow? Can treating urban and rural differently under different laws somehow be considered as fair?”
By brain on 05.11.08 5:06 pm,
I lost all respect for your opinions when I read the above.
I lived in a city for years. I had public transit at my door. I could walk to the nearest grocery, pharmacy, school, library, even my doctor and dentist. Not everyone has those advantages nor could they afford to live in the same kind of upper middle class community that I lived in at the time.
A few years ago there were four service stations within about five kms of where I live today and three convenience stores. Today there are none within thirty kilometers. The oil companies and other suppliers decided that they could increase profits by centralizing delivery to larger centers and large supermarkets and refused to deliver to rural areas. Back then we had a local school and a book mobile that provided library access: they no longer exist.
What is “fair”?
Your comments illustrates the problems that many poor Canadians are going to face when the wealthy urban decision makers mitigate the impact on themselves and transfer the costs to others. It has been going on for years and it bound to get worse with the kind of “let them eat cake” attitudes exhibited by people like you.
I agree with Brent Fullard’s synopsis.
I believe that, at the moment, it is of the utmost importance to keep the structures of Canada’s democracy sound. Perhaps the greater threat currently is the attacks being placed on the soundness of our financial system. It is so very disconcerting to read and then understand what the ramifications will be if
Bill C-50 is enacted.
PLEASE READ and then think about it!
Big Banks want Carney to have more power
http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080512.wrboc12/CommentStory/Business/home
Executives want finance minister to push through legislation that will let central bank accept riskier assets as collateral
Canadians need a change in government NOW – not later. Distrust is accelerating.
TS ….meaning that anything that uses oil will be escalating in price. Economics 101.
If that’s the case, why bother with a carbon tax? Seems a pretty cynical move to inflict additional hardship on people who are being hammered by circumstances already. If you believe that our reliance on oil is already self-correcting then how can you advocate the carrot OR the stick?
Re “Men with hats”. The hypothesis that anthropogenic CO2 is driving temperatures must be fallacious if the data does not support it.
Facts should supersede ideology.
There should at least be a moratorium on CO2 demonisation and expenditures until scientists review the data and the hypothesis.
All car companies need to get their heads on straight and focus on building vehicles that do not consume fossil fuels at all. Period.
By TS on 05.12.08 5:39 am
The problem is alternate fuel availability. As long as the oil companies control the distribution system, there will be no change. No one will buy a car they cannot reliably obtain fuel for.
Electric is ideal except for the battery weight, costs, and recycling.
Fuel cells are heavy as well. We had the problems of much urban transportation solved back when I was a kid…they were called Interurbans. Pennsylvania still runs many of them. They are all electric rail.
The oil companies will NOT change unless they are nationalized and forced to by government. Kid yourself not. Likewise, the other chemicals (plastics, lubricants, pharmaceuticals, etc.) derived from crude oil are now essential as well. We are burning up our future while OPEC ($1 TRILLION in profits for the last report), Exxon-Mobil ($90 Billion profits last QUARTER if memory serves?), Petro-Canada more billions in profits. Now, as long as Ottawa collects all that gas tax, does anyone think they will kill their own sacred cow? HELL NO!
It is all political fluffy BS. Same goes for the provinces…they, too, are raking in the cash from gas taxes like a cheap whore sucking down a bottle of cheap wine.
How long have the promises been coming? As long as I can remember, and that is more than 60 years.
Besides, do you really believe Frank Stronach wants to change his Golden Egg income? Yeah, sure, wake me up when its over.
As to Dion’s carbon Tax…I say NO! What we need are strict environmental laws with heavy fines and imprisonment, and sufficient inspectors backed by law enforcement. No more ‘Nice Guy’ approach. Get it DONE!
Brent.
YOu’re idea presupposed that given enough money any solution can be found and it’s just now so. YOu can throw all the money you want at Fusion technology and the odds of finding the key break through don’t increase dramatically. It’s not simply a matter of willing renewable energy production into existence.
First you have to convince the people to go against their immediate best interests and play way ahead. Most average citizens have a very limited capacity to do this. They want tax cuts that take effect this or a retroactive and they want to be told we have the tech now and that all we need is the money and the will to get it done. The carbon sequestration hullabaloo is the cons current golden egg. There’s been some success in limited trials and the cons are trying to convince canadians that it’s just a matter of scalling up the process and then we never need worry about vehicle or power plant emmisions again.
Even appealing to the their pocket book isn’t enough because if the price of gas drops due to some efficiency improvements you’ve lost them. You have to convert them to the type of believers that the cons have as their base (just look at how much these guys pull in in donations. It has more to do with shared social ideology they get from ministers than competence). We have to convert canadians to the idea that greening the economy will not only not hurt the economy but grow it but that it’s their moral responsibility to do it. Not just for their kids (a large percentage of the voting population doesn’t have kids) but for themselves in the next decade.
If we can be evangelized about the snowball effect of improving the environment you get a citizenry that wants decrease emissions because it is morally obligated to do so.
By TS on 05.12.08 5:38 am
Best post I’ve read on this one.
“I lost all respect for your opinions when I read the above.” – C.B. Innes
By C. B. Innes on 05.12.08 8:28 am
Really? I usually reserve that one for violent criminals and phycopaths, myself, but if you insist.
And while I respect ALL of your own opinions, I can’t agree with them all, especially the one above as I respect myself just fine, but I will offer this. None of us, including you and I are always right.
You speak of self sufficient small populations as though its doable. Just remember that there is only one of two ways in which it will ever be achieved. The first is tech which came as a direct result of trade and globalization whether you’ll ever want to admit it or not. The second way is to walk away from tech completely. Good luck convincing the rest to do just that, walk away.
Finally, this shrinkage of rural pops came from industrialization. Tractors pull 60 ft of cultivation instead of 10 ft with tractors of old, or 2 ft with a horse and plow. Harvesting that took 10 men a day to do 40 acres takes one man 4 hrs today. Did you expect agriculture driven populations of these towns to stay the same as a result? In a way, they have. The town I grew up in had a population of 800 + when I graduated. 20 years later, it was 550. Now, its back to over 800 again. Why? No more empty houses. Housing has increased in value to such a point that they were all bought up from people moving from expensive BC. Its the norm in Sask in most small towns. Its not job opportunities that is driving this migration but the value in owning affordable housing and living cheap on the sly in a place where there are no big city worries. Is it a better way of life? Maybe if one grows a garden. Are people better quality people in small towns? Its the same wherever one goes.
And what about those cigar boats and yaughts and mansions built for 3 (can’t even spell it right, shows how often I’ve been on one). Did you really think I was defending the “ownership” of such toys? Mabye if they were shared and taxed but even so… its gluttinous excess that I was criticizing and if you were too emotional to get the point and that was my doing, then I am sorry. Otherwise, it was not my intent so save the “lets eat cake” label for someone who deserves it, shall we, the disconnected, out of touch aristocrat label is wasted on me. Truly.
A carbon tax that won’t fly
National Post – May 13, 2008
Stephane Dion is again musing about a carbon tax. During his bid for the Liberal leadership in 2006, he called it “bad policy.” Then, last spring, he suggested a carbon tax was a good policy, but not so good that the Liberals should adopt it. Now, Mr. Dion appears to be saying that a carbon tax may be the right policy for the Liberals after all. His most recent flip flop could not come at a better time for the Conservatives. With high gas prices already enraging consumers, Mr. Dion’s idea will be suicidal at the polls.
We know Mr. Dion claims his carbon tax would be revenue-neutral: Other taxes would be lowered to offset the billions that a carbon tax would raise. The Liberal leader insists he seeks only to change Canadians’ carbon-use habits, not raise more monies for the federal government. But “revenue neutrality” is one of those promises that never seems to pan out once a new tax is actually imposed: Recall that the Mulroney government assured consumers its GST would be revenue neutral, and look how that turned out.
Ontario, similarly, has proposed a new tax on computers, monitors, televisions and other electronics to cover the cost of disposing of them at the end of their useful lives. That, too, is supposed to be revenue neutral. But at the rates suggested by the Ontario government, the plan would actually raise as much as $210-million more than needed each year –money the Ontario government could then spend as it saw fit.
Other jurisdictions’ experiences with carbon taxes also raise concerns. In British Columbia, where an allegedly revenue-neutral carbon tax was the centre-piece of this spring’s provincial budget, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation estimates it could cost consumers and taxpayers up to $1-billion each year.
Denmark’s carbon tax, introduced in the mid-1990s, succeeded in reducing carbon emissions — but not in the way intended. All the carbon reductions came from shuttered factories and lost manufacturing jobs. While emissions fell 10%, manufacturing employment fell 25%. The reductions came at the expense of workers, not carbon producers.
Even if the Liberals do truly intend to lower income taxes — or some other personal tax — by the same amount raised though an added carbon tax on gasoline, home heating bills and electricity, the plan will be unpopular at the polls. The trouble, politically, is that marginal offsets in personal taxes tend not to attract the attention of voters — while the jump in gas prices and utility bills caused by a carbon tax would be glaringly obvious to Canadians every time they filled their tank or paid a heating bill.
Selling Canadians on a new tax at this particular time will be doubly difficult because they are already grumbling about high pump prices. Moreover, the move would come in the midst of economic uncertainty. Polls in the United States (which has admittedly been hit harder than Canada by the international credit crisis) show that when households start feeling financially pinched, concern for the environment is one of the first things that gets jettisoned. The environment has already fallen in U. S. public opinion surveys from the first-or second-most important issue to fourth or fifth in just the past four months, as homes have been foreclosed, businesses shut, workers laid off and gas prices raised. A similar pattern will be observed here if our economy turns south.
In any case, even if pollsters aren’t picking up the evaporating concern here yet, we suspect that voters’ interest in green issues has waned since cresting in the lead-up to Mr. Dion’s triumph at the Liberals’ 2006 leadership convention. If Mr. Dion wants to accelerate the onset of the next such convention, championing an unpopular carbon tax is a good way to do it.
…………………………………
I hope Dion is not swayed by facts about a carbon tax and goes ahead with it … and then tries to sell the idea to Canadians during an election campaign …. Are you on board Dion’s sinking barge, Garth ..???!!!!