“We’ve got a problem.”
It was Esther on my Berry Tuesday night around seven, as I walked to an event in Centre Block. My Hill staff had just forwarded an email to her in the riding office from a soldier in Edmonton. Moments later another arrived from Kandahar.
“They’re accusing you of saying our soldiers murder people,” she said.
Back in Milton, the local paper has just published a letter from a Cam Battley. “Halton MP Garth Turner owes an immediate apology to the men and women serving with the Canadian Armed Forces in Afghanistan,” it said. “He has come perilously close to accusing them of purposely murdering civilians.’
About exactly the same time, a posting appeared on the premier Conservative web site, Angry in the Great White North. The headline: “Garth Turner accuses Canadian military of pursuing the destruction of Afghan villages.” The article, written self-professed investigative journalist Steve Janke, asked breathlessly, “Is Garth Turner alleging that the Canadian military is buying weapons and equipment in order to attack civilian targets in Afghanistan?”
Esther read me some of the letters which had just arrived. “As a serving member of the Army I am very offended by your statement, and will not accept elected officials using the military as a carpet to wipe their feet on when it is politically expedient to do so,” a Master Corporal wrote from Afghanistan. And in Edmonton, another CF member questioned my patriotism, saying, “You are a politician of convenience and could not keep company with the men and women of our Armed Forces because you lack what they have an excess of – courage, dignity and pride in this country.”
“What the hell,” I said to Esther, “is going on?”
But it was soon apparent.
Two weeks ago I held a Roundtable on Moral Issues in Halton with twenty-four faith leaders – Christian, Muslim and others – to get their opinion on challenges facing me as a Parliamentarian. One of those, of course, was the war in Afghanistan, which they opposed with conviction. I invited the local paper to sit in, and the young reporter covering the event wrote this:
“These are contradictory times,” said Turner at the conclusion of the meeting. “We don’t have funding for youth centres but we do have $150,000 for every shell bought for the sole purpose of destroying a village in Afghanistan. We could buy each Afghan a condominium with that money.”
Actually, my words were a little different, and the village part was suspect, but the reporter was close enough in his coverage that I didn’t bother correcting him. The shells in question, as I described to the group, are GPS-guided munitions which our forces are using to destroy Taliban positions. They do cost $150,000 each, compared with about $2,000 for a conventional round. I’m told that for the additional cost, the accuracy of strikes is improved by about two dozen meters from a range of up to 20 kilometres. I used this ammunition as an example of what our group had spent two hours discussing – the priorities governments face when allocating limited resources. Maybe it was a bad example. Maybe it was a good one. But I used it. And would again.
“I’d like to see Turner meet with our soldiers or their families face-to-face,” my local Tory accuser write in his letter. “Perhaps he thought it was a clever political attack line. It was not. Turner’s verbal assault was an ignorant slur against the character of Canadians serving in Afghanistan.”
Not to be outdone, Janke added, “Perhaps Garth Turner thinks the Afghan housing market is in better shape than Canada’s. But then I can’t see how, what with Canadian troops preparing to rain destruction on Afghans and their homes.” And from one of the servicemen. “Your attempt to cheapen what they do shows me a sound-bite politician who gets his news and views from the television. Thank God for the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces because if we had to rely on people like you this country would amount to nothing.”
So there you have it. From a meeting with religious leaders, to weekly newspaper report, to Conservative militant, to out-of-context quote, to an accusation of murder, to slathering Tory blogger, to the public domain, to Edmonton, to Kandahar and God only knows where by Thursday at noon.
“We don’t have a problem, Esther,” I said. “They do.”
An hour later I wrote the soldiers, saying: The words you refer to were taken out of context from a newspaper report and interpreted and embellished by a political opponent. Of course I am aware of the shells, their origin, purpose and usage. I also voted to extend the Afghan mission – twice. I believe our troops are fighting for the principles of freedom and democracy, as much as some people here try to defeat them with deliberate falsehoods.
Thank you for your service to Canada.
Reaction to this story:
‘Twist, spin and smear,’ at Bene Diction Blogs On
‘Is this the representative we want?’ at National Post blog.
189 comments ↓
So much for expensive ammo.. these CONs are trying to throw sticks and stones at ya Garth!
…Perhaps the Harper Government is getting desperate due to “Tories losing ground with voters.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080513.wpoll14/BNStory/National/home
…also, “Tories spend $1.1M on immigration reform ads” allegedly “providing sympathetic coverage of the Tories and Prime Minister Stephen Harper.”
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/425152
I think you over reached on this one Garth, for numerous reasons you should be fact checking, this weapon is a vast improvement over conventional artillery shells and cuts the collateral damage zone down from 500m to 200m. The highest cost I can find on the net is 89g and the cost per round is expected to level out around 35k once production is fully established. you will also not need to send as many shell down range in order to have the same effect on the enemy when using this weapon system, In all seriousness Garth, you said this totally wrong and you should acknowledge it and move on.
This report says $150,000 per round. Did the media outfit get it wrong, too? http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080325/artillery_shells_080325/20080325?hub=SEAfghanistan — Garth
As I learned of the Cam Battley letter to the local paper, followed by the well orchestrated blog and email campaign described here on Garth’s blog my emotions went from anger, to thoughtful bewilderment to a heavy heart. Why would anyone go to all that bother to so blatantly, and partisanly discredit their Member of Parliament? Or anyone for that matter. What would motivate someone to be so devious? Did Cam really think he would get away with such misrepresentation of the truth? Is his estimation of the intelligence of the people of Halton really that low? My heart was sick to see those emails from our Canadian Military who had been unknowingly sucked it to this vortex of deception. How could anyone use the very group of people they deem to defend? It is not Garth Turner who needs to apologize to Canada’s Military Cam. It is you. SHAME.
So what were your words and what was the context?
Garth, the members of this so-called Conservative party are the real sultans of smear, legends of liars, masters of misdirection and that is the only majority consensus that they will ever get from the citizens of this great country.
Now go do what ya gotta do.
Garth, I am a CF soldier who has followed you and your blog for quite a long time. I NEVER once thought that you took service persons for granted or would use them as political props. If anything, you have supported our mission and what we do. However the party you are now part of treated us very shitty in the past (especially during the Chrétien years). From pay freezes and budget cuts of 25%, canceled expensive helicopter contracts, or buying crappy subs, my list could go on and on. DND was not a priority, but staying in power was. We are fortunate enough to have a PM that has the desire to support us and help our military catch up from several years of neglect. Your true partisan Liberal readers would say because it was because of hero finance minister Paul Martin, that we have the money today. We also have a CDS that helped improve our morale and remind Canadians what our primary role is again. I wish all our MPs could be freelancers and less partisan and really say what they think and not have to follow their party. That is how you started, but you have evolved into a hardcore partisan Liberal. I still like you Garth. I just cant stand the Liberal party. If the NDP ever won federally, our bullets would be taken away and we would have nicer military housing.
Garth … perhaps you could clarify two points for me, namely:
1. You were quoted as saying: “We don’t have funding for youth centres but we do have $150,000 for every shell bought for the sole purpose of destroying a village in Afghanistan.” Did you mean youth centres in Afghanistan or Halton? If you meant it for Afghanistan, what’s the use of youth centres there when the Taliban are destroying Canadian-built schools for Afghan boys and girls, and then murdering the teachers? Perhaps these GPS guided shells are a good investment if they more efficiently kill the Taliban scumbags. Agree, disagree..??
2. You also said: Two weeks ago I held a Roundtable on Moral Issues in Halton with twenty-four faith leaders – Christian, Muslim and others – to get their opinion on challenges facing me as a Parliamentarian. One of those, of course, was the war in Afghanistan, which they opposed with conviction.
Do you now oppose the war in Afghanistan with any conviction after listening to the Halton faith leaders? If yes, what changed your mind about Canada participating in the UN-NATO-led military action against the Taliban?
As usual, I would prefer to hear your opinions rather than just the Liberal party line. Thanks.
I wonder which war is dirtiest , the one on Parliament Hill or the one in Afghanistan.
In both instances one side tries to defeat the opponent.
I wonder if there is any one winning.
By KH on 05.13.08 10:52 pm
I disagree with your conclusion. Its an overblown smear and the fallout is ugly. This kind of thing makes the victim of a smear hypersensitive to the issue itself. How easy will it be for Garth down the road to speak reservations on the war if it goes forward and becomes an endless moneypit littered with causalties? Smears come with labels. There’ll be one soon and if the tag takes, it’ll be thrown in his face every time Garth talks of peace or common sense should this war never end.
And on a positive note ….. I am pleased to report that the Garth Turner “Writ or No Writ Blitz” machine was out in full force tonight. Dropping your literature on door steps where mail carriers fear to tread. Tonight’s target was Oakville. So if you are reading this and have been living in Richview for less than six months, check your front door step for a Garth Turner surprise! Can’t say where the team is headed next, lest we be met with cpc militia armed with pitch forks, shovels and keyboards. One thing we promise …. If you live in Halton ……. And you are in one of our many new subdivisions, fear not. We will find you. Feel the love.
Mr. Turner:
I believe that our soldiers (generic term, its an army mission) deployed in Afghanistan are performing their duties to the best of their abilities and in accordance with their training – I also believe that successive administrations have been using them to wage an illegal aggressive war in this country.
As someone who wear his CD at every opportunity with a great deal of pride, this is very distressing.
I think we have lost our way – I had no problem as a young man being very physically uncomfortable pursuing submarines in the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans that may at some time have had red stars painted on them – this mission in Afghanistan is the only one that the Canadian Armed Forces have been engaged in during my time as an adult that has caused me anguish at this level.
The BS in former Yugoslavia – a successions of just missions, just a monumnental Charlie Foxtrot. The liberation of Kuwait – eminently just. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. No, this mission in Afghanistan doesn’t pass the sniff test IMHO – it is as illegal as the South African War was, and that gave birth to one of our great regiments, the Strats.
Don’t sweat the slurs – you did indeed vote to extend the mission – I think you were wrong to do so – but that does not make you a traitor.
If you have the time and the inclination, read Brig. (ret’d) John Masters’ trilogy of novels about the first world war – especially take note of the comments of the soldier who was blinded in the first gas attacks; and remember that the author was a front-line soldier.
From what I can see the Taliban use villages as meeting places and ammo dumps. Whenever these villages are attacked or bombed, the Taliban PR machine kicks in with pictures of casualties, of course never mentioning that they were involved.It reminds me of news coverage of the Vietnam war, and we know how well that went….Something about history always repeats itself….
So I’m just about to turn in for the night, and decide to check one last blog …. The infamous piece of crap: Repossessing Halton.blogspot.com (ahhh how brave are the anonymous), and what do I find? Our “innocent” little Cam Battley letter has made the National Post! COME ON BOYS. Garth is but a lowly floor crossing back bencher. What makes you fear him so? Could it be “you picked on the wrong guy and he’s not going away?” Or perhaps ……. Garth Turner is the Real Deal, all the rest are amateurs.
Once again Garth your mouth is in 4th gear forward and your brain is in reverse. I wonder how long its going to be before the the Liberals realize like the Conservatives that you are a JA and kick you sorry butt out
Mr. Turner:
I don’t think you should lash out at “KH” for his or her comment regarding the cost of the Excalibur GPS-guided artillery shell, for Canada’s 155mm howitzers – used in battle against the Taliban.
You said (and it seemed kind of angry and defensive): “This report says $150,000 per round. Did the media outfit get it wrong, too? http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080325/artillery_shells_080325/20080325?hub=SEAfghanistan — Garth”
KH is right. The initial $150,000 cost is most likely for small, early orders, for rounds to be used for field testing. If you’d spent 5 minutes on Google, you’d have discovered, as KH says, that the cost-per-shell is expected to come way down once the ammunition goes into normal production. But instead, you just went ahead without any research, and took aim at our troops for buying ammunition “for the sole purpose of destroying a village.”
CBC News reported at the time that Canada was buying “a handful” of these shells. And the standard shells for Canada’s 105mm and 155mm howitzers cost anywhere from a few hundred to a couple of thousand dollars each. So your comment about “$150,000 for every shell” was really quite misleading. You could say it was “taken out of context”… by you. Don’t you think?
Is it time to apologize, now? I really think you should.
Yes Garth, I am glad you have this site.
As you may know I disagree with the “War on Terror”; I think the original attack on Afghanistan was planned prior to 9/11 2001
for oil pipeline building purposes.
http://www.crescentlife.com/heal%20the%20world/afghanistan_and_oil.htm
Would you have voted to extend the mission if you knew it was about oil?
Afghanistan needed help in the Canadian
PEACE KEEPING tradition.
I am glad you met with that group of faith leaders.
Have you talked to any other MPs or Senators about the package given each of them on May 1st?
If the material in that package is false
please show me the accurate evidence and I will shut up and go back to routine matters.
I wish you well in your difficult task.
Please tell me you’ll be responding in next week’s Champion.
Organized smears…..
No wonder Harper’s conservatives are despicable.
Garth,
Your supporters know where you stand.
I thought there was common thinking amongst liberals and conservatives to not use the Afghanistan mission for political uses.
That’s to bad, it must hurt to be bashed by soldiers.
Dirty to politics to say the least.
Daryn
“. . . Turner meet with our soldiers or their families face-to-face,” my local Tory accuser write in his letter. . . .
It would be a unique experience for you to meet with some of the CF, have a question and answer session with them and let them know first-hand what you really said.
This message could be sent sent to all Cdn. Force members around the world.
CRAP is really desperate to start something from nothing, and I venture to say they will not stop at any low point until the election, by which time a lot of Cdns. will be really angry with them, for the way CRAP has decimated our country.
“Sinking Like A Sunset” is an excellent song by Tom Cochrane, and a very large round of applause for CRAP as they exit stage left — they have been sinking like a sunset for some time.
About bloody time, too.
****************************************
I posted a link recently, which gave alternate views on energy, one of them being a combination of the wind (creating waves) and the sea.
If set up correctly, it is a cheap, renewable resource which can be tapped into, thereby reducing reliance on oil, electricity and / or gas.
A separate link, with a heading “Ocean motion powers up homes”, from a UK company, will help Wales try to become a completely self-sufficient around 2025, and then start exporting their excess.
http://tinyurl.com/3lhhrj
SMEAR ‘N’ GO
Silly contemptuous CONS with their incessant pejorative comments and writings.
I hear that their website can now spit out smears for any occasion. Simply enter your name and postal code, and your area of smear interest, and it will regurgitate the “smear du jour.”
I understand, too, that all CON MPs have recently been provided a special jar of cream called “SMEAR ‘N’ GO” in response to Poo Poo Pierre Poilievre’s recent antics in the House Of Commons.
It seems that CON MPs are getting sexually aroused each time they hear PP chant “In…Out, In…Out, In…Out”
CON members have been advised to apply this cream LIBERALLY (irony added) on their private parts before entering the House, so as to reduce the chances of extreme embarrassment. Similar to their verbal and written attacks, they can just “SMEAR ‘N’ GO”.
However, as with all their juvenile-minded policies, it seems that the effectiveness of this proprietary cream is in doubt.
Apparently, some male CON members have been caught staring lovingly at Pierre during his speeches.
Even Tom Lukiwski has been seen with a certain twinkle in his eye as he gazes fondly at PP repeating his lines.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
“Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.”
Abraham Lincoln
It’s to bad one of them there shells didn’t go off course a bit and wind up in the ___ office as it seems it doen’t matter the cost of artillary but screw our aboriginals who should be first and foremost, lower our taxes and get our economy in order instead of blowing it away in gunpowder.
It doesn’t matter whether the shell is 10 feet within target if the the dummy behind the sights is a little hungover and lines it up wrong same effect.
When i started paying taxes many moons ago 1000.00 a year was large, now 25000 times that is excruciating.
Its time we get our house in order or become a ghetto like our friends down south.
Besides who the hell we going to defend against some poor Russians kayaking over the North Pole, another 10 years and our friends down south wont have enough currency of their own to buy shells and I doubt by then the Chinese who own them already would be willing to forward anymore into a sink hole.
Garth, no-one can question your integrity. By the way, 200yards is supposed to be a “good” range? Have any of these clowns seen an Afghan village? 200 yards across is the WHOLE GODDAMNED village! The alleys are narrow enough to reach across with your arms outstretched. You can practically leap from rooftop to rooftop of neighboring homes. No wonder we’ve had so much “collateral” damage in the past few years (yet no-where near what the yahoos to the South of us have accomplished). 200m? What a joke. “Smart” bomb, my ass…
Garth being less than accurate in a meeting or blog posting….wow….there’s a first..NOT!!
Whether the cost is 150K or 89K per shell this is absolutely crazy. All this does is help fatten the bottom line of US defense contractors who are the real ones “making a killing” in Afganistan.
We have millions of people in Canada living in poverty and yet we throw away billions of dollars on a war in Afganistan that cannot be won. History has proven that for centuries.
The only reason we are in Afganistan was to keep our forces out of Iraq…it was politically expedient, and the lesser of two evils.
Canada has a long history of peace-keeping going back to the very first UN peace keeping force in Egypt…the brainchild of Lester Person. We need to return to these noble roots and bring our troops home. Our troops played an important role in Bosnia as peace keepers, witnessed by their heroism at the Medac pocket.
Hawks on this blog can rant all they want. Like millions of other Canadians I have never supported our involvement in Afganistan and I firmly believe that history will win out and show our involvement to be a costly mistake that had no bearing whatsoever in changing the nature of Afganistan.
[...] angry military was. I don’t think the 24 faith leaders would be amused either. Garth Turner: Anatomy of a Smear: So there you have it. From a meeting with religious leaders, to weekly newspaper report, to [...]
Well you can look at this positively, at least it will give Van Loan something different to spew when you up on the floor of the House to ask a question…his other pathetic and childish floor crossing comment is the laughing stock of the nation….now he will have a new way to look silly!
As a retired service member of over 30 years I have and will have much to say on this an other sad issues. Garth is 100% correct so forget that. The last count was 36 suicides from serving members home from Afghanistan, soldiers are being returned having complained of many mental health problems, many who have been returned are being shut out from the work force due to possible mental and physical injuries…..you want to talk about Afghanistan….get ready, ………to be continued.
By Cam Battley on 05.14.08 12:13 am
I guess you must be running as the candidate for the troubled conservative party.Good start Cam, it should put you in the good books of Harper and his cheating bunch of criminals .
On a good note.
That’s one unhappy Harper
Little sense Tories are enjoying their de facto majority
Don Martin, National Post
Published: Wednesday, May 14, 2008
http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=512757
Tories losing ground with voters
Anxiety over the economy, unease in Ontario and a winter of controversy have not been kind to the Harper government – a new poll puts the party barely ahead of the Liberals
BRIAN LAGHI
OTTAWA BUREAU CHIEF
May 14, 2008
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080514.POLL14/TPStory/TPNational/Politics/
Tory pitch falling flat, focus group tests find
STEVEN CHASE
From Wednesday’s Globe and Mail
May 14, 2008 at 4:52 AM EDT
Flaherty livid at accusations of pork-barrel politics
Tory friends win too many contracts, Liberals say
DAVID AKIN, Canwest News Service
Published: 4 hours ago
Finance Minister Jim Flaherty crossed swords with opposition MPs yesterday over accusations that Conservative supporters and friends are winning an inordinate number of government contracts.
Liberal MP John McCallum accused Flaherty of playing pork-barrel politics, a charge angrily denied by Flaherty, who said McCallum was unfairly smearing his opponents
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=ff03b816-b82e-47f2-9453-d5a17a88ef66
Hey Garth, how about you arrange a roundtable in Ottawa specifically on the issue of Afghanistan and invite military personnel and civilians?
I know you’re not afraid to stand up and speak the truth to this type of audience. Certainly would erase any doubt as to whom and what you support.
Just a thought, dude.
-R
Canadian Soldier Killed and Another Injured in Afghanistan
Ottawa – Corporal Michael Starker, of 15 Field Ambulance, was killed today and another soldier was injured when they came under enemy fire during a patrol in the Pashmul region of the Zharey district. The soldiers were immediately evacuated by helicopter to the Canadian-led multinational hospital at Kandahar Airfield, where one soldier was pronounced dead. The other soldier is in fair condition and stable. The incident occurred at about 11:45 a.m. Kandahar time. The families of both members have been notified.
At the time of the incident, the soldiers, their colleagues and Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) were conducting a civil-military cooperation (CIMIC) patrol in the area. These patrols are part of the many ways ANSF and ISAF show their presence, interact with the local population and discuss development needs of the community.
This is what this war on terror is really all about-the sacrifice of our children for the re-building of a country.
I know Garth supports our troops ,what I don’t know is why the CPC is using the death of our soldiers as a political game that dishonors all Canadians by selectively smearing those who do not agree with their politics.
The sacrifice of the lives of our soldiers deserves better than that.
This incident will not deter us from continuing our work with the Government and the people of Afghanistan. Incidents like this one prove that, along with our Afghan National Security Force partners, Canadians need to continue working to bring about peace and security in the region.
These are difficult times for the families, friends and colleagues of the soldier who died in this incident. Our hearts go out to them at this time and the Canadian Forces will do it’s utmost to help the next of kin of this brave Canadian.
-30-
Sorry for the delay in replying Garth, that pesky sleeping thing interfered.
As to whether I should disagree with the MSM concerning the price of a round, yes I should, the MSM as we both know, tends to go to the high end of any extreme, it took me less then five minutes to scan through 5 sites and come up with the projected cost per round.
As to the rest of the issue concerning this, your comments no matter how you intended were not interpreted the way you intended therefore it behooves you to clarify the remarks.
I can remember many times reading on the blog how you have stated the Media has it wrong concerning LPC intentions and policies, are you now advocating and yourself believing everything your read or see on the MSM.
As to the use of indirect fire in theater. Lesson Army 101, Indirect Fire is used to engage, destroy, force out the opposing sides when they are in a dug in, re-enforced defensive position to lessen the damage that could be inflicted on your own side or allies.
The more accurate an artillery round and its crew is the more effective it is and the less change of collateral damage.
Before I get jumped on I do know and fully understand that indirect fire can be used in more situations then the one I described.
Sounds like someone wants to be class president REALLY BAD.
I don’t see how the cost of the munition is germane to whether Garth insulted anyone, or what difference it would have made if he quoted the price to the cent. I also don’t think we’re going to accomplish anything positive by merely “killing scumbags”, Harry S, no matter how many scumbags we kill.
I thought I was becoming de-sensitized to the right-left propaganda wars since American politics took a big dive, around Nixon’s era. I was wrong. This is unbelievable. Thanks for the articles, Keith Phibbs. They do show that this is not what Canadians expect from their representatives. Harper did not have a mandate to do what he has done to our institutions and traditions. And it seems now that he is being called on it, he has ensured that Parliament and even the fabric of our conversations on politics has devolved into these personal, twisted attacks. If Mr. Dion were to say the word, I think most of us would be ready to fight on new ground. Higher ground? I hope so. Wouldn’t all investigations continue re CPC/PMO? Isn’t this prolonging of a dysfunctional government harming Canada, each day it continues? Please make it stop, Mr.Dion?
I also voted to extend the Afghan mission – twice. I believe our troops are fighting for the principles of freedom and democracy, as much as some people here try to defeat them with deliberate falsehoods.
Thank you for your service to Canada.
posted by Garth Turner on 05.13.08 @ 10:32 pm
I think many would find it enlightening if you were to expand in depth on the above, with particular emphasis on this part, “I believe our troops are fighting for the principles of freedom and democracy”.
If you believe that the troops are fighting for freedom and democracy could you explain your rationale? And could you outline the falsehoods that you refer to so this would be more precise?
I expect this would remove any room for speculation and clearly define whether you support the concept of “support the troops”, or you support the mission.
I feel sorry for these poor slobs of the maritimes that have to go in army, because they can’t find a job, or they had no money to get a good education. Now these poor man and women are there, and I’m sure hate to be in the country, but Canada is sending there because of Bush, Harper loves Bush, but does he love our soldiers, NO WAY, more love for Bush, no love for our Soldiers. Thats the Harper mentality, Harper hates anyone in this country, only his helpers he loves. I don’t like a person, that can’t look you strait in the eye’s. I HATE HIM, HARPER, HATE,!!!!!!!!!!!!
I suspect that we will find Conservative operatives and MPs making increasingly nasty slurs against elected political opponents in an attempt to get them to launch lawsuits now that they know that this will silence them.
Garth may be a test case because they want this forum shut down.
The ethics commissioner has given them a major tool to facilitate unethical behaviour. It is not clear whether the NDP motion will have any impact on changing the situation.
The question is whether Stephen Harper and the Conservatives should be allowed to make any derogatory statements about the Liberals because of their lawsuit.
You know what is really sick about this whole thing? The CPC are using our soldiers to divide, smear and try to pump up their CPC supporters – they are USING “our” soldiers for their own campaigning tactic – that is sick and evil. It’s the EXACT same tactic George Bush used – but he didn’t give a damn about what happens after they get home.
Garth – you should perhaps go to Trenton sometime and speak to the soldiers there.
Bravo
By brain on 05.13.08 11:10 pm
This war is a joke but nfortunately not for our soldiers, these are brave fighting men & women who are serving their country. The political leaders in Ottawa and the ones who are showing cowardice when they allow their men and women to be in a position where the enemy has a provided sanctuary and strike and run back to their sanctuary. This is one big joke, if the enemy is in the hills of Pakistan, then we (NATO) should be routing them out. If I was the PM, that would be my condition for staying the course, either we are allowed to play on a level playing field or bye bye! Maybe Harper might show some support for the troops by taking a trip to Washington and delivering that message to his good buddy….otherwise don’t give me garbage that the CPC supports the troops, they support GWB and the troops are the pawns in the suck up game.
Our men & women in uniform are second to none!!!!
We have millions of people in Canada living in poverty and yet we throw away billions of dollars on a war in Afganistan that cannot be won. History has proven that for centuries.
By TS on 05.14.08 5:07 am
Since we are there, do we cut and run, and I don’t just mean Canada, I mean NATO.
No.
The real question is should we spend $150K or $89K on shells to reduce collateral damage from 500m to 200m; wouldn’t it be nice if the Talibhan carried GPS locators for these weapons to hit! All this means is the shells hit closer to their selected target, it doesn’t ensure the correct target is selected; or could that money be put to better use in reconstruction and in getting the Afghanis on our side. This is especially true for the poppy-growers, who see the US. led erradication of their crops as a direct assault by the coalition and turn to the Talibhan for assistance.
And Harry, yes, the money could be better spent on youth centres in BOTH Canada and Afghanistan.
Just the facts, this is not a War, no declaration of War has been issued and our brave soldiers are not covered under the War Act, it is a UN, NATO sponsored conflict. The Taliban has no Navy no Air Force and no Marines..we are in their country, they never attacked Canada nor have they stepped foot here or invaded Ottawa or any other city town or village. Before NATO entered Afghanistan the total opium was approx. 1200 tons per year it is now over 8500 tons per year and Karzai has said hands off. A few thousand innocent men women and children have been killed many by so called smart weapons….speaking of which…Remember all that cruise missile jazz…aside from the testing they proved to be inaccurate during the first Gulf war and more money was given to upgrade them, then during the initial assault on Baghdad they fired them off at a cost around $800,000 each to get rid of them. Make no mistake the Winds of War is all about money. So who is the real enemy here? Of course we support our troops and of course will do not like to hear or see people killed, but to say we can drop 500 and 1000 pound bombs and strike from the Air Land and Sea upon innocent men women and children reducing their homes to dust, driving them into refuge camps where there is little food and water for what….untendered military government friendly defence contracts all in the name of Neo Conservative policy of Democracy by force.
Fight them over there instead of over here, have you ever heard that line? O/K the enemy (insurgents) have no Army, no Air Force, no Navy, no Marines, how are they going to get to here “Flying Carpets” then again we have NORAD, so they will need invisible flying carpets. Follow the money ladies and gentlemen.
The Commons: There is no there there
By Aaron Wherry
May 13th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Behold government as a figment of the Prime Minister’s imagination
The Scene. Shortly before Question Period, the Prime Minister strode into the House, looking refreshed after his trip to Halifax to announce… well, to announce what exactly? An announcement? A thought? A theory? An idea? A projection? A notion?
Nominally, yesterday’s do was billed as Canada’s new military strategy for the next two decades. But, as one columnist put it today, “the complete plan is apparently locked inside Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s brain.”
Perhaps then, the opposition could ask that the government table the Prime Minister’s formidable cranium. It’d be interesting to see that thing transcribed. Though no doubt they’d have to black out the sweary bits.
“For $30 billion, Canadians expect the kind of detailed, comprehensive plan they normally get from the Department of Defence,” Liberal Geoff Regan huffed on Tuesday, “not just a smokescreen.”
All snide remarks aside, there is something to be said for what the Prime Minister managed yesterday. To use a Gertrude Stein line that Conservative James Moore’s quite fond of—there is no there there. But that doesn’t matter. Because the Prime Minister says there is. So there is.
That there isn’t a plan in a binder on someone’s desk, to be reviewed and vetted and discussed, is now apparently superfluous. On all accounts. Welcome to the new metaphysics.
“This government,” Peter Van Loan vowed today, responding to questions about a possible breach in the Foreign Affairs Minister’s bedroom, “would not put national security at risk.”
How do we know this? Because the Government house leader just said so. How can we be sure? By listening. You see, the government’s words prove themselves.
The opposition demanded to know when they might see the results of a government inquiry into the NAFTA leak. The investigation, Van Loan promised, was “nearing completion.”
How near? Who knows?
The Liberals asked what the government was doing to address the catastrophe in Burma. Maxime Bernier promised “discussions.” A short while later, Conservative backbencher Ed Fast dutifully asked Bernier to expand on “what action Canada can take” in regards to yesterday’s earthquake in China.
“Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all Canadians, I want to reiterate our condolences for the tragic loss of life as a result of the earthquake in China,” Bernier said. “Earlier today I spoke with the Chinese chargé d’affaires to express our sympathies. I also expressed Canada’s willingness to help in any way necessary, including a meaningful humanitarian assistance package. We stand here in this House for the Chinese people.”
In other words, Canada is doing nothing. And yet it is doing everything. There is no there there. But there is. Because Max said so.
The NDP’s Brian Masse asked the government to account for recent job losses in the auto sector, daring to suggest the Conservatives didn’t have the faintest idea what they were doing in this regard.
Oh hardly, corrected Jim Prentice. “It is very clear,” the Industry Minister proclaimed, “that we have an auto strategy that we have been working on.”
In other words, there is nothing. And yet there is.
This is all, of course, fairly irrefutable. Who are you to say what the Industry Minister is thinking about? How is anyone to doubt what the Foreign Affairs Minister intends to do?
The opposition will stew and fume and demand specifics. And they may get them, at least in theory. But this is politics on a higher plain—government as a figment of the Prime Minister’s imagination.
If nothing else, in these times of economic uncertainty and environmental concern, it should cut down on paper use.
….tells it like it is – doesn’t it? What is is.
KH is right. The initial $150,000 cost is most likely for small, early orders, for rounds to be used for field testing. If you’d spent 5 minutes on Google, you’d have discovered, as KH says, that the cost-per-shell is expected to come way down once the ammunition goes into normal production. But instead, you just went ahead without any research, and took aim at our troops for buying ammunition “for the sole purpose of destroying a village.”
CBC News reported at the time that Canada was buying “a handful” of these shells. And the standard shells for Canada’s 105mm and 155mm howitzers cost anywhere from a few hundred to a couple of thousand dollars each. So your comment about “$150,000 for every shell” was really quite misleading. You could say it was “taken out of context”… by you. Don’t you think?
Is it time to apologize, now? I really think you should.
By Cam Battley on 05.14.08 12:13 am
Cam, you are an idiot & I hope Garth charges you, the National Post & your beloved Reform party for slander. You guys will stop at nothing in your quest for ruining people’s lives in order to stay in power. I have news for you Cam, Canadians are seeing SH for what he really is & if you think printing things out of context will help the Reform Party out, you are out to lunch.
This latest charade appears a lot like what Peppy Le Pews {PP} work but mark my words, he will pay the price for the damage he is trying to cause to the Liberal Party & btw Cam, you will be paying along with him.
Garth, sue the pants off of these jerks. I’m sure you have grounds & the finances to do so. Put these crooks down a peg or two. Hurt them in their pocketbook where it will hurt the most.
For what’s it worth, that’s my rant for the day.
Regards,
Leadership is not about defining your turf. It is about judging the effects of your theory and style on the broad situation. (J.R. Saul ‘TCoGatRotW-page 151)
This should be pasted all over Steve’s Hall of Portraits, in his office, and in his restroom. Who knows, maybe it would slowly sink in? Obviously, Dim Jim, would not even come close to grasping such a philosophical statement.
Garth does, did, and has, because he connects the dots between actions, choice of actions, the costs, results, and purposes related to the goal.
Opportunistic egomaniacs like Janke are too busy flinging unfiltered sludge to ever grasp the ‘broad situation.’
Like Scar said ‘Help! I am surrounded by IDIOTS!’
Conservative bullying undermines democracy
Frances Russell
You are right Garth – we have a “serious” problem:
Libel chill to stifle public inquiry. Intimidation to turn national institutions into servants of the party in power. Trash talk to destabilize opponents. A “black book” of procedural dirty tricks to disrupt parliamentary committees.
Like former U.S. president Richard Nixon, Prime Minister Stephen Harper wants power “not to govern the nation but to undermine the government,” Trent University historian Dimitry Anastakis and Saskatchewan journalist Jeet Heer write in Britain’s Guardian Unlimited. Harper, they continue, “sees many Canadian institutions as illegitimate, not just in need of reform but worth attacking root and branch.”
Last March, Harper made Canadian history by suing the leader of the Official Opposition, the deputy Liberal leader, a prominent Liberal frontbencher and the party for “impugning” his reputation through “malicious and reckless defamatory statements.” The Liberals alleged the Conservatives offered dying Independent MP Chuck Cadman a $1-million life insurance policy to vote against the Liberal minority government’s 2005 spring budget.
Harper subsequently dropped St ©phane Dion, Michael Ignatieff and Ralph Goodale from his case but is still proceeding against the party. He has threatened Dion that “this will prove to be in court the biggest mistake the leader of the Liberal party ever made.”
Last weekend, the RCMP confirmed it has interviewed Cadman’s widow and daughter but is refusing to say whether it has launched an official investigation.
The Cadman affair is the most high-profile example of the Conservatives’ libel chill offensive. Nova Scotia Liberal MP Robert Thibault has been barred by the federal ethics commissioner from asking further questions about the Brian Mulroney-Karlheinz Schreiber relationship because the former prime minister slapped him with a lawsuit over his comments in a television interview.
Thibault is standing his ground and challenging parliament to address the growing libel chill threat, raising the spectre that frivolous lawsuits could silence legitimate parliamentary inquiry and the role of the opposition to hold the government accountable.
Ontario Liberal MP Mark Holland is being sued by Environment Minister John Baird’s chief of staff, Chris Froggatt, for publicly suggesting he “interfered with or attempted to interfere with a police investigation into Minister Baird.”
Last fall, Baird was interviewed twice by Ontario Provincial Police detectives over allegations Ottawa Mayor Larry O’Brien, a long-time friend of Baird’s, offered to help an opponent get a federal job if he dropped out of the 2006 mayoral race. News last December that the OPP was set to forward its dossier to the RCMP to probe any role Baird may have played prompted Froggatt to make a series of calls to a detective and the superintendent of the anti-rackets unit. Froggatt claims he only made the calls after getting inquiries from the media and calls Holland’s accusations “seriously defamatory.”
Also last fall, Dion had to issue a public apology to Harper’s spokesman, Dimitri Soudas, for allegedly defaming him over accusations Soudas interfered on behalf of a Montreal real estate developer involved in a multi-million-dollar lawsuit with the federal public works department.
Elections Canada is the latest federal institution to feel the full force of Harperite fury. Last Friday, Ontario Conservative MP Pierre Poilievre and a group of Conservative backbenchers engaged in a mocking chant to attack the respected federal elections agency. The Conservatives charge that other parties are also guilty of “in and out” bookkeeping, but Elections Canada is only going after Conservatives. Conservative backbenchers chanted “In and out; In and out” as Poilievre repeatedly chanted back “Where’s Elections Canada?”
The chief electoral officer and the elections commissioner are both Harper appointees.
Here’s a list of other Conservative assaults on Canada’s public institutions: Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission president Linda Keen, fired; the two top officials of the Canadian Wheat Board, removed; the Law Commission of Canada, closed; the Court Challenges Program, killed; several senior environmental and scientific positions, eliminated; several officers of Parliament — the former ethics commissioner, the former chief electoral officer and the former information commissioner –all retired after high-profile run-ins with the Harperites; the chair and advisory panel of the Immigration and Refugee Board, all resigned.
Last week, Auditor General Sheila Fraser blew the whistle on a Conservative plan to require her and other officers of Parliament to clear all public communications through the Prime Minister’s Office.
Imagine how that could have gagged Fraser’s incendiary report on the Liberal sponsorship scandal in February 2004 — the issue that brought the Harperites to power. Imagine further how the Conservatives could have been libel-chilled from probing it.
Like schoolyard bullies at recess, the Conservatives have been trash-talking Dion just before daily question period. Toronto Liberal MP Bob Rae calls it “ritual denunciation.”
The Conservative chair has blocked a parliamentary committee’s investigation of the Cadman affair for months by walking out on every meeting.
Hostility towards the federal power, indeed, towards government itself, spawned the Harperites’ ancestor, the Reform party. But their assaults on Parliament and their derision and coercion of Canada’s federal institutions are more than partisanship run amok. Degrading and undermining democratic institutions degrades and undermines democracy itself.
…a serious problem indeed – Harper is dangerous – no if ands about it.
If John Turley-Ewart had any sense of decency, he would state that he is a supporter of the Conservative party and that he is making an attack on a fellow Canadian (and using our troops to do so).
Garthie – so, what did you say…what was the context? Are you going to write to the “young journalist” or pen a letter to the editor to correct the record? Or will you just stick to your cowardly statement that you were inaccurately quoted and taken out of context?
As I said in the post, the young journalist was largely correct. I was pleased to have him at the meeting, since it was an important one for the soul of the community. — Garth
Since we are there, do we cut and run, and I don’t just mean Canada, I mean NATO.
No.
By James- Chatham on 05.14.08 8:31 am
James,
Please think about that philsophy. it is the same as two morons who continue beating on each other long after they have forgotten what started the fight to begin with. Likewise, it is the mindless philosophy that the U.S. used in Viet Nam, and is using in Iraq!.
As I recall the original purpose of going to Afghanistan was to find and capture Bin Laden. That mission is UNACCOMPLISHED and a FAILURE!
(Additional part missed)
Constant and realistic assessment of the mission goals, and its status are what should be the determinining factor, not ’cause we’re there!’
So utterly tiresome is this bizarre myth that has sprung up about how soldiers are apparently some higher beings that simply cannot be criticized.
Soldier boys beating homeless person to death, poisoning their platoon leader, beating captives to death…these are all actions perpetrated by Canadian army boys in the last 10 years. Add in a helluva lot of good, decent work, the occasional heroic act and you’ve got a similar cross section of any group of Canadians.
All volunteer army. Hardly takes a genius or anyone with special skills to enroll.
Suck it up and do your god damned jobs and be prepared to face criticism by proxy due to the wrong headed nature of the campaign.
The way some of you whining sissies demand respect sullies the good work that you perform.
Now for long term health care for all the sick and wounded that come home from this Conflict, we now have a few thousand vets waiting for compensation to which Ottawa can not handle, this will increase as these soldiers and other service people finally return home and leave the service. Last year it was reported the Navy was short $24 million for fuel, the Air Force was short $28 million the New helicopter project will be delayed and the Yanks want another $500 million on cost overruns…. our Navy is tied to the docks and recruiting is almost at a stand still couple this sad state of affairs with training and special courses on hold. All this is compounded by the fact that many highly skilled technicians are leaving for the good life in the private sector…same goes for the Air Force….South of border they have given a wavier to those with criminal records to join the Army for Iraq, reports (CNN special report) of neighbourhood gangs signing up for Iraq just to learn the fine art of killing to return home to use on their home turf much to deadly detriment of local police officers. Could this happen here? let us pray not. So you see ladies and gentlemen there is more than raw raw support the troops, of course we wish them well for all who got into battle are brave (Queen Victoria) but to-day our brave are sent for political reasons more often than not. Our initial role was the same as 95% of our countries and we were participating at a comfortable level for a large country with only 32 million, for those who blame previous government for the lack of personnel and equipment, give your head and shake and read your Canadian history books, Canada never wanted an armed force, the British set up the first bases and we mobilized when asked in WW I & WW II and did so in a gallant manner, but soon returned to old routine of providing only what was needed….”AT THE REQUEST OF THE VOTING PUBIC” Chretien said “NO HELICOPTORS” and won a majority….remember? oh how quickly you forget. Why did Canada via the government become peacekeepers, because it is the cheapest way to participate, and at that Canada was ranked #33 or #34 on the world stage. During WW II we had over 0ne Million in uniform and we had 19 officers of General Rank in total (Navy Army and Air Force) to-day we have approx, 62 thousand in uniform (Reserve included) and have 16 officers of General Rank! backed with yet another 12,000 officers and heaven knows how many Sr, NCO’s leaving a hand full of boots on the ground to carry the heavy load, to which most are support staff, so when you see all those troops lined up sending yet another brave soldier home most are support staff….That is modern day army right or wrong…The enemy (call em that) pay nothing or very little have few officers, no uniforms and are will to die in heartbeat for their land and cause and number in millions……and they just keep coming and coming. Even if they stop for what ever reason they will be back because we have invaded their land and destroyed their homes killed their family members for what reason and they remember, and another point we are protecting their government officials who are bleeding their country and living the good life. So there you go and there is more…..Listen General Romeo Dallaire when he speaks of: “Who is the real enemy” he squared of Jasen Kenny big time yesterday…. the General lived in hell and knows the truth, the loud mouth(s) rides in a limo and stays close to home…so who do trust for the truth?
I still like you Garth. I just cant stand the Liberal party. If the NDP ever won federally, our bullets would be taken away and we would have nicer military housing.
By Paul R on 05.13.08 11:28 pm
Maybe you should consider this?
I believe it is quite evident that neither the CPC or the LPC are deserving to serve again as the Government of Canada. Since the other parties have little or no hope of forming a government, I would suggest that the party system in Canada is no longer useful to the electorate and would suggest Canadians on mass demand a new form of Government.
That Government could take the form of a Provincially Appointed Government or an elected Independent Government. I have some rough ideas along that line and would suggest we embark on this route if we care at all to see a democratic government that will respect the wishes and will of the constituents. This is necessary as the two main parties in Canada no longer allow representation from the grassroots. When MPs are flown into ridings to run or told how to vote, this destroys basic democracy.
Try for a moment to put aside your partisan choice (whatever that might be) and look at this objectively.
FOR A NEW INDEPENDENT GOVERNMENT IN CANADA
Here is the plan…
1. Each Province and/or Territory is allotted one member of parliament based on their percentage of the population of Canada. For example if Alberta has say 18 % of the population, they get 18 seats. (There will be possibly a few more than 100 seats to accommodate those provinces who have .5 % or more or who might have less than 1% of the population)
Each Province or Territory must have at least one seat.
2. Within each Provincial caucus, the members slated to be in the cabinet will be voted in by the elected members.
3. Each Province and Territory will have one member in Cabinet, the four largest Provinces in population two. (Total 16 members)
4. The Prime Minister will be elected by the 16 members of Cabinet and approved by the Parliament as a whole.
5. Funding for elections will be provided by the federal government and will be limited to the minimal amount necessary. (the amount to be determined by Elections Canada)
No individual or corporate donations will be accepted, the penalty for accepting them will be dismissal from Parliament and a by election will be held in that riding within 60 days.
6. Recall from cabinet can be effected by a vote of 75% of Parliament.
7. Recall from Parliament can be effected by a 60% participation in the form of a petition of the MPs riding.
“We don’t have funding for youth centres but we do have $150,000 for every shell bought for the sole purpose of destroying a village in Afghanistan.”
Garth, you do get that it’s the second part of this quote that has people mad at you right? You wrote that “the village part is suspect”; so, what did you actually say? I don’t actually see you denying that you made that statement about destroying villages. If you didn’t, say so. If you can’t remember exactly what you said, say so. Right now you’re dancing around the issue, which isn’t really helping your credibility.
However the party you are now part of treated us very shitty in the past (especially during the Chrétien years).
By Paul R on 05.13.08 11:28 pm
First of all, thankyou for serving our country. I am a supporter of our troops. That means that I support you in a way that protects you from a gov’t
who might put you unneccsarily in harms way. I feel very strongly that our present gov’t is doing just that.
IF IT WEREN’T FOR CHRETIEN YOU WOULD ALL BE IN IRAQ GETTING SHOT LIKE FISH IN A BARREL.
We have no business imposing our way in a land that is so deep in religious values that it’s people will commit the unspeakable.
Canadians know this and we as a nation see no reason to create deficits by spending big dollars on a military that wants to fight a war for the next 100 years. Not my words, ask McCain.
When you say you can’t stand the Liberal party, you are saying you can’t stand me. I can forgive you but I will continue to support troops(not the war) until you are all home again.
If anyone has EVER USED our troops for political purposes, it’s our present minority Reformers.
Misquoted or whatever your comment was right on.It had nothing to do with our soldiers and their fine efforts.They only follow the orders of often misguided politicians whose offsprings are never in the line of fire.The billions of $ Canada is wasting in fighting George’s war,would be better spent on helping the helpless all over the world especially the downtrodden in Canada,instead of supporting a decrepid Afghan. govt.,tribal leaders and the armament industry.Well said Garth.
Where exactly in the news article does it say that Garth said that Canadian soldiers were deliberately firing on Afghan civilians?
Talk about smear. The Cons like to “cherry-pick” words and phrases and morph them into controversy. But do the same thing to them and they howl like banshees.
The Cons are so paranoid. So afraid of losing their thin hold on power that they will say and do anything to discredit Canadians who question their policies.
All the Cons can do these days is chant in unison with Pierre as choir director.
We also have our troops on standby, while the opium crop is harvested. Yes, you might say there are a few contradictions in this war. Garth- the CPC media machine is heavyweight, to make up the fact it is lightweight when it comes to policy. You have been ‘Obama-ed,’ Canadian-style. You’ll get through this (like Obama), and more! But watch those mikes!
Awwww… poor Garthy-poo. He of the “smear-a-week” party is upset for being called out as the douche-bag he is. Looks good on you.
Oh Garth. You reap what you sow buddy.
By David Bakody on 05.14.08 6:16 am
RIGHT ON! My close friend in the CF’s tells me the casualties in our troops is rising heavily. In fact, it is not just suicides, but drug abuse, psychotic episodes, family breakdowns, the usual and very predictable gamet of post combat maladies seen in every war mankind has engaged in. Still not acceptable for political reasons..
These poor souls are in deep PTSD and while they seem to be afforded help, too many are too mind f—-d to take advantage of it until they hit bottom.
As usual, the ‘mission’ got expanded for political and emotional reasons totally unrelated to its original intentions.
Pretty much like taking your car to the mechanic and then getting him (or her) involved in how bad your neghborhood has become, how you burned dinner last night, yada, yada, yada! The MISSION was simple, but not anymore. Time to Bring ‘em HOME!
As I recall a mission is a specific task designed to accomplish a specific goal. Not some never ending foray into insanity! That is what the military is trained to do.
Our troops are not to be used as political campaign cannon fodder.
As soon as the US presidential race is over the US will begin withdrawing troops from the ill-advised invasion of Iraq. History will show that this decision was one of the worst in the history of the region and will destabilize it for decades to come.
“Cut and run” is not a term that I would use. “Come to our senses and leave a no win situation behind” is how I view it.
Just because we have made a fundamental error in judgment is no reason to continue it into the future.
The Wedge of Words
In this day of 24 hour news, blogs, Youtube, information and disinformation it is difficult for people to disseminate the facts. Politicians, our most public servants are scrutinized more than ever before. They are tested every day on their ability to wordsmith and are judged accordingly.
A sound bite whether in print or on TV can and is often taken out of context. A roundtable, a town hall meeting, local news interviews are all part of a MP’s job.
But all can be used in the political arena to discredit a political party or an individual politician.
This is precisely why the Conservative party will not allow their members to speak. Photo Ops are encouraged and riding goodies announced but no direct communication in a public way.
Garth understands what has occurred and if he needs to he will privately explain and apologize if needed to armed service personnel and their families of Halton.
Now for the big picture. Afghanistan is a wedge issue that is emotionally charged and divides Canadians. After listening and watching Mr. Harper’s speeches over the past few weeks I believe his September election strategy is “Defending Canada”.
First it was the some MP anti-Semitic remark on the 60th anniversary of Israel. Then it was the 20 year Defence plan. So these are the broad strokes.
The awkward words of Garth launched a full frontal news attack on Tuesday. On the same day, Jason Kenney baits General Dallaire in Committee testimony and unfortunately he bites.
I can just see the poop-a-grams over the next few months. It is up to Canadians to disseminate the barrage of disinformation to be launched this summer. No doubt the Conservatives will question all opposition MP’s patriotism. Mr. Harper wants to fight the election on a war of wedge words.
Too much infor. has come out for any body to really think this war is about democracy or anything remotely connected to that. The soldiers do what they were trained to do, not to explore the real reason they are there. I applaud the soldiers, hate the war.
Stephane is WRONG on so many levels to slap Dallaire’s wrists, since he is the only person to speak truth to power and that really resonates with Canadians. Wake up. If Dion disciplines him, there will be a backlash from even the faithful Libs.
Oh and one more thing. Congratulations on the ability to close this parliament for the summer without giving Harper what he wanted, an election. Leave on a higher ground note.
To truly understand how some of these bozos view reality, watch Douglas Feith’s interview on Jon Stewart’s ‘The Daily Show.’ This guy was Bush’s former Under Secretary of Defense Policy, and a principle in forming the Iraq invasion plans.
Douglas Feith Uncut, Parts 1 & 2
What they believed is far, far away from what the people were told. Feith says ‘they erred’, but Stewart calls the stories they purported LIES! You decide.
I will go with Door #2 LIES!
As I recall the original purpose of going to Afghanistan was to find and capture Bin Laden. That mission is UNACCOMPLISHED and a FAILURE!
By Bill-Muskoka on 05.14.08 9:14 am
Maybe, in the eyes of Bush’s PR. But I suspect the real reason became getting rid of the Talibhan for stonewalling him. Same mentality as WMD’s for getting rid of Saddam!
As we are there, and we, NATO, have caused the mess that now exists, for NATO to leave would be for naught. What is needed is a change of focus from shelling/eradication. Some may still be needed, but the main focus has to be on helping the Afghan people, including getting rid of the corrupt members of the government. It may have been a gaffe for our foreign minister to say it out loud, but that’s what allowed the Talibhan in there in the first place.
As for your earlier reference to Scar being surrounded by idiots, you got that right. And we all know what happened to Scar!
Stephane is WRONG on so many levels to slap Dallaire’s wrists, since he is the only person to speak truth to power and that really resonates with Canadians. Wake up. If Dion disciplines him, there will be a backlash from even the faithful Libs.
By Molly on 05.14.08 10:46 am
I agree with on this and disagree with Bonnie N BC. Speaking truth to power today may make someone unpopular with the establishment. There is a huge double standard applied by our politians when it applies to their behaviour as opposed to the behaviour of others.
Double standards are becoming so accepted by the political elite that they do not even see their hypocrisy.
On the one hand they deny the rights of their opponents in Afghanistan by creating a self-serving renaming of them as “non-military combatants” so international law can be ignored and then try to say they are not “civilians” so civilian rights should not apply. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
Dion should be ashamed of himself for playing this kind of a game.
By Molly on 05.14.08 11:08 am
Oh and one more thing. Congratulations on the ability to close this parliament for the summer without giving Harper what he wanted, an election. Leave on a higher ground note.
…………………………………
Yes, Molly … the Dion Liberals have won the battle but lost the war … still mired in opposition and unable to do anything else but boast and blather in their pathetic state …!!!!
Garth could certainly have worded his comments better, but then he is colourful to say the least. Kudo’s to him, though, to head the issue straight on.
I would have said the sole purpose was to destroy Taliban insurgents. The comment as quoted was hyperbole and open to exploitation by those who have a fundamental problem with Garth being so outspoken.
Having said that though, it would be fair to point out that any village that the bomb lands in, would suffer what everyone likes to refer to as ‘collateral damage’.
It is disingenuous to suggest that Garth is far from the truth in his comment. After all, the device is not a greeting card; it’s purpose is to inflict damage.
Lost in the idiocy of this discussion is Garth’s comments related to the crazy times we live in, where there are important issues at home that may not be adequately funded or addressed while at the same time we are spending vast amounts of money to wage war on a stubborn enemy.
I certainly don’t take Garth’s comments as criticism or lack of support for the troops. It is more an observation of what our spending priorities are, and that is what the discussion should be about.
Unfortunately, that is lost in the desire to play ‘gotcha’ and extrapolate an outcome that just isn’t there in Garth’s comments.
Interested in the price of oil?
See here:-
http://www.counterpunch.org/zadeh05142008.html
Thanks Bill, far too many people for what ever reason see Hollywood in War Games, dead is forever but PTSD is even more deadly. Garth I was going to send you a personal e-mail wrt to my passions on this ill conceived conflict stating briefly that should you wish not to accept my word I understand for many to not carry the heavy heart that I do knowing perhaps more about this sad state of affairs than most. For others who know only what was sold to them in a hour of debate to which what’s his name did not even bother to show up for please keep an open mind. Garth words were correct and it is a known fact many ill informed MP’s would stop at nothing to shut down his educated words. Such is the game of bullies….Bill in the end nothing will change in either Iraq or Afghanistan, many people have and will become filthy rich supporting the Winds of War, history has shown that people build countries not politicians, good direction in the governance of sound physical and economy skills allow that to happen. It will never happen when a person in charge has a personal agenda to destroy or manipulate time tested government institutions and agencies that were put in place for the betterment of all it’s citizens. Perhaps Canadians had to see just how fortunate we were as many hard working dedicated elected MP who came before Stevie and his gang worked to provide what we had. You never miss anything until it is gone. Garth I would like to see M. Dion take the bold step of laying the truth on the line wrt Afghanistan during the next election (soon I hope) that he will bring all our troops home, stating the following: Canada has more that fulfilled it’s commitment to both NATO and the Afghan people, NATO has over 45 member Nations many larger in population than Canada, our brave troops will the full support of our population have given more than their share and asked for no favours. Our troops will be summoned home in very timely fashion with honour and we are willing to return on notice in a full rotation that is acceptable to Canadian people after a honest debate in our House of Commons.
Postscript:
Canada has up until now (Harper is now shying away from the UN security team as reported in to-days G&M) has been seen as the sobering thought around the world could put NATO on notice, to either make it work to which it’s mandate states or turn full control over to the UN to where they are sharp teeth in such issues.
By wjp on 05.14.08 9:33 am
The biggest problems I see with that is the old parties who govern provincially would simply appoint their own party hacks to the federal positions and the party landscape wouldn’t change unless it changed provincially first.
Then there’s the problem that the provinces with the largest populations would continue to run the show much to the displeasure of the rest. Pretty much as it has been in the past.
Such is why I believe we must change the way we select and elect our representatives and level the playing field completely when it comes to campaign funds and means of reaching the voters. i.e. signs, tv ads, debates etc. Uniformity for everyone and eliminate the nominating convention as it now is, that being an exercise in Knighting the chosen ones.
The decision of who gets to run has to be returned the people in order for Democracy to exist.
In this way, the party system can continue, but the status quo would not. Without the ability to buy popularity for their chosen candidates and the ability to buy elections via grossly outspending the competition, a new spirit of independence would be born as candidates would know they neither have to rely on the wealthy for funds, nor do they have to cater to their demands once “Democratically” elected.
I do like the idea of 60% being able to remove a sitting member.
Of course, these things could only come to pass upon acts of Parliament. That’s not about to happen anytime soon, unless….well you know the drill.
No matter what the cost of shells,if they are not pointed at the real problem which is inside Pakistan what’s the point?
As I pointed out a few weeks back,Karzai told Nato to stop killing the Taliban,McKay said no talking to the Taliban,and if Karzai’s regime is so GD Democratic then he should be the boss and what he says should go.But anyone who has even the most basic knowledge of Afghan politics knows this is hogwash.
Yesterday we were enlightened to learn that Mr.Bush actually gave up ^playing golf as a sign of support for his troops in Iraq.Little comfort to the 4000 plus dead,30,000 injured and 500 dead in Afghanistan.
I’m sure the family members of dead Afghan civilians will be happy to hear they were killed with a smart shell instead of a stupid one.
I don’t agree with the Liberals for voting to extend this mission beyond 2009.
As for Cam Battley maybe you could go over to Afghanistan and start reporting on the deplorable mess that exists there.
Hey if Arthur Kent can do it,why not you.But if ya won’t go at least get educated.
http://www.skyreporter.com/
The regime’s corruption, the Manley report states, is “undermining not only the hope for an Afghan solution but also support for the Western forces sacrificing their lives…” On Pakistan, the panel emphasizes a grim truth which has been concealed by President Bush, Prime Minister Harper and other Western leaders: “Taliban commanders who are responsible for the violence in Afghanistan are directing it primarily from sanctuaries in Pakistan
Awwww… poor Garthy-poo. He of the “smear-a-week” party is upset for being called out as the douche-bag he is. Looks good on you.
By Reid on 05.14.08 9:58 am
Garth has more intestinal fortitude in his pinky finger than yo do in your entire whiny body ‘ya rat bastard .
Oh Garth. You reap what you sow buddy.
By Real Canuck on 05.14.08 10:13 am
Wow ! Any more stupid bromides,moron ?
Quote:
“As a serving member of the Army I am very offended by your statement, and will not accept elected officials using the military as a carpet to wipe their feet on when it is politically expedient to do so,” End Quote
Canadians are offended by ALL the un-truths. The intentional degradation of Canadian institutions and society – the intentionally “well-cooked” meals that the ‘SUPPOSED’ sheeple swallow each day.
AND, Canadians WILL NOT ACCEPT elected officials USING the Canadian public as a carpet to wipe their feet on for the sake of political expediency.
I believe that Mr. Dallaire is showing us the way to just absolutely SPEAK OUT AGAINST all the abuse that the current parliament is attacking our country with. This abuse has to BE stopped. There is not even ONE corner of Canadian society, that past generations fought for and won, that hasn’t been poisoned, deconstructed and currently being engineered, INTENTIONALLY, to implode.
and, note briefly, (or not at all if you want to just believe the Ministries of Un-Truths): The ACTUAL (read REAL) inflation rate out of the States today is about 7.4%.
Just because we have made a fundamental error in judgment is no reason to continue it into the future.
By TS on 05.14.08 10:25 am
But, where that error in judgement has negative effects on others, then we have a responsibility to try and fix the situation.
There’s an old saying, “If you broke it, you fix it!”
If this doesn’t hold, then there is no accountability for one’s actions; without accountability, we are destined to repeat the error.
Question to Bill-Muskoka, what was the accountability for the mess in Vietnam? I wasn’t old enough to remember. But I suspect the answer is little or none. Hence, Iraq was to be expected.
Amazing. People will read into things what they want I guess. I have looked into this and it’s not what it was made out to be.
I encourage people to educate themselves and do a little investigating/reading before writting letters and getting all upset.
Of course, these things could only come to pass upon acts of Parliament. That’s not about to happen anytime soon, unless….well you know the drill.
By Greg on 05.14.08 12:00 pm
It will only happen when Canadian voters tire of voting for change and getting the same….that will be some time away as most Canadians could care less what goes on in Ottawa until it affects them personally…my guess is 5 years from now, things will be so devasting in Ontario and almost everywhere but Alberta and Saskatchewan, that Canadians will take up the revolutionary political torch…until then, we have to put up with 3 years olds running the House of Horrors (Commons).
Yes, Molly … the Dion Liberals have won the battle but lost the war … still mired in opposition and unable to do anything else but boast and blather in their pathetic state …!!!!
By Harry S on 05.14.08 11:47 am
You should understand their position completely as that is what you have been doing here for the last few months!
By Greg on 05.14.08 12:00 pm,
I agree with everything you say but it would be a major challenge. It is not even those who fund political parties that now control them but difficult to identify outside interests. Some predicted that once the official contributions were cut you would get the growth of “underground” control mechanisms which was far less open than the former system. I believe that has happened.
What we must have are “public” rather than private parties and parties that are legally governed by constitutions that are subject to the rule of law.
“As I said in the post, the young journalist was largely correct. I was pleased to have him at the meeting, since it was an important one for the soul of the community.” — Garth
And, here is the relevant quote from the “young journalist”:
“…We don’t have funding for youth centres but we do have $150,000 for every shell bought for the sole purpose of destroying a village in Afghanistan. We could buy each Afghan a condominium with that money.”
So, Garth, if the journalist was “largely correct”, do you believe that the “sole purpose” of each shell is “destroying a village?” If not, tell us how the quote is incorrect? If do believe that the sole purpose is destroying a village, why do you believe so? The sole purpose of the shell, once deployed, is to take out some enemy target. Right? The purpose of the shell NOT deployed is to act as both a deterrent and to enable the ability to take out the enemy target.
Would love to see you talk your way out of this one….that is, if this post makes it onto your blog.
By C.B. Innes on 05.14.08 11:46 am
I am not sure what part of my Wedge words you are referring to – I watched the whole Dallaire committee meeting on ParlVU. I understood and agree with General’s assessment.
What I found problematic was the bait and switch Jason Kenney did to get M. Dallaire to sound unreasonable. Jason got what he wanted a sound bite to diminish the point of the subject matter – Omar Khadr.
I would hope that M. Dion will not saunction General Dallaire.
Read Kady O Malley’s blog…
If you want to watch the entire committee meeting set your VCR to 7 pm (EDT)on CPAC (10 pm PDT)
From ReportonBusiness.com – Big Banks want Carney to have more power
“The expanded lending powers would amount to the biggest shift in the way the Bank of Canada conducts policy since it adopted scheduled dates for interest-rate announcements in the early 1990s.”
This is an amendment to the Bank of Canada Act in the current Budget Bill C-50 which will give the Bank of Canada permission to accept risky collateral. This will put us on the same footing as the other G7 countries who have bailed out their financial giants with public money.
When these institutions were shooting the real estate moon, did every Canadian citizen benefit from their windfall profits. No! But you are now asked to take on their losses – nobody else wants them.
Liberal John McCallum favours the Bank of Canada changes. Yes, of course he does.
I CAN’T BELIEVE THAT ESTHER CAN’T UNDERSTAND WHY WHY SOMEONE WOULD GO TO SUCH LENGTH TO DISCREDIT THEIR M.P. WHEN THAYS ALL GARTH AND HIS FOLLERERS DO ON THIS BLOG.I GUESS SHE FEELS gARTH SHOULD BE IMMUNE FROM SUCH CRITICISM.
DENNIS A FORMER LIBERAL.
I started extracting bits from various posts that David Bakody put on this thread, then gave up. There were too many. I agree with all of it.
The same goes for William Laidlaw’s post at the top of the thread.
Canada needs well-trained, well-equipped armed forces – no problem there. It needs to care for them and their families. Ditto. By why do we need to “grow” the army? Why high-tech expensive weapons? What wars are the Cons expecting in the future?
The soldiers sent to Afghanistan are doing what was asked of them by the present government. That’s their job. Unfortunately, most Canadians don’t agree with the mission and I’m one of them.
Since we’re paying for this and our society is being diminished by every death, wounding or illness of a soldier, and the money spent on expensive destructive weapons is not going to improve anyone’s life, here or in Afghanistan, except for the arms manufacturers, we have a right to disapprove. What surprises me is how badly the governement missed the public mood on this.
The Cons are trying to portray that they are the party of “the military”, that monolithic force with but a single thought (I’m being sarcastic here).
Funny. Since the Cons didn’t even exist until a few years ago, I wonder who THE MILITARY was represented by before that?
———-
The Angus Reid poll:
“Many adults in Canada believe the House of Commons should not have extended the country’s military mandate in Afghanistan until the end of 2011, according to a poll by Angus Reid Strategies. 54 per cent of respondents disagree with the decision.”
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/30694
———-
Bill in Muskoka re the severely dumb Douglas Feith:
“Doug Feith is the f**king stupidest guy on the face of the earth” – General Tommy Franks
“Seldom in my life have I met a dumber man.” – Col. Larry Wilkerson
His interview on “60 Minutes” caused me physical pain.
And what does he get for his supreme ineptitude? A book deal and a job at the American Enterprise Institute. Just what exactly to you have to DO before you get your ass thrown in jail in the U.S. these days?
—–
The U.S. Air Force wants to control everything, including space and cyberspace. This is very comforting.
Air Force Aims for ‘Full Control’ of ‘Any and All’ Computers
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/05/air-force-mater.html
—–
And Stevie’s supreme purpose in life?
Keeping USA gas tanks full
(from a piece which appeared in the Windsor Star):
“In 2006, the Security and Prosperity Partnership called for a fivefold expansion of tarsands oil production.
“…While right-wing pundits are claiming the SPP is dead, the new pipeline network announced by TransCanada Corps last month to connect Alberta oil to southern US markets shows that plans for North American energy integration are going full steam ahead.”
“…Ron Stevens, Alberta’s deputy minister and minister of International and Intergovernmental Relations, is heading for Washington this week to promote oil from the province’s tar sands as “environmentally sustainable.”
“…The Alberta government is investing millions of taxpayer money in a US ad campaign bearing the same message.”
“…Harper seems determined to provide the US with as much oil as it wants — at whatever the cost to our own energy security and the environment.”
http://www.straightgoods.ca/ViewFeature8.cfm?REF=277
—–
Awwww… poor Garthy-poo. He of the “smear-a-week” party is upset for being called out as the douche-bag he is. Looks good on you.
By Reid on 05.14.08 9:58 am
Garth has more intestinal fortitude in his pinky finger than yo do in your entire whiny body ‘ya rat bastard .
By Men With Hats on 05.14.08 12:20 pm
Ditto! Reid, you are a friggin brain dead evil deadbeat. My hope is that you dimwit bastards get burned big time by your beloved Dictator Harpo. You will you know. Your being used & you don’t have the intelligence to see that. What goes around comes around & that’s a fact. You guys are so dumb you can’t see the forest for the trees
Grow up & grow a backbone.
Cheers
Question to Bill-Muskoka, what was the accountability for the mess in Vietnam? I wasn’t old enough to remember. But I suspect the answer is little or none. Hence, Iraq was to be expected.
By James- Chatham on 05.14.08 12:35 pm
Very little. Eventually (30 years too late for my taste) Robert S. McNamara ‘apologized’ for erring in his administration and advice. That did nothing for the dead 58,000 troops, and far less for the hundreds of thousand dead Vietnamese.
Kennedy (JFK) was, in part, assassinated for refusing to get the U.S. involved in ‘Nam. The Military/Industrial Complex hates being told NO!
General Westmoreland went on to a happy retirement. General Chuck Horner went on to fight in the Gulf War, and revised the USAF’s tactics based on the lessons (HARD lessons) learned in ‘Nam.
The War Lords walked away with trillions in profits.
Accountabillity? Those who died and were maimed for life was the only thing counted publically.
LBJ (Johnson) refused to run for another term because the war was so unpopular, and so was he. Nixon, took the reigns and tricky Dick ended in disgrace being impeached by the Congress.
Those that promoted the war went on, as usual, to highly paid ‘consultant’ positions and helped set the stage for Globalization, the next disasterous ‘policy’ we are still dealing with today.
Henry Kissinger, Zebrenski (sp?), the entire lot of them prospered with the Tri-lateral Commission, Council on Foreign relations, WTO, World Bank, and all the other high up ‘world class’ organizations they fostered.
Today we have their hand picked puppet George (of the desert II) Bush, (versus his Daddy, who as CIA Director was deeply involved in ‘Nam. That would be George of the Jungle, later to be George I of The Desert in 1991).
Also of note is that with the end of the ‘Nam ‘police action’ (It was never officially declared a WAR!), came the oil crisis. Following Operation Desert Storm, came 9/11, followed (naturally) byOperation Iraqi Freedom (Free dumb is what that has been), followed by the raping of the world by the oil companies (again only this time it is not OPEC as much as Wall Street doing it), and then we get to today and the meltdown of the economy because nobody wanted to pay for the previous wars, and darn, all those money lovers figured out they can avoid their responsibilities for the past, by gambling with the future. Remember that the Globalism thing started in 1971. When Nixon promoted, along with Greenspan, and the other Economic Gurus if the Ether taking the USD and world off the Gold Standard and onto the Oil Standard.
Makes me wonder if anyone else sees a continuing pattern in it all? I certainly do without any doubts.
Thanks for asking, I thought you were older? You lucky guy you. LOL
The ’smear bullet’ went right for your heart Garth! The only reason for it, is because you’re perceived by the CRAPS as a threat & believe me, that’s a good thing. Like a star player on the Liberal Team, the competetion will be out in full force trying to ‘take you out’. You handled the ball well & achieved your goal. I sincerely hope your federal Liberal Team Players will come to your defence re this sleazy, smear campaign aimed at you. f there’s one thing today’s Liberals need it’s solidarity! Hope you get it. You deserve it. You work hard. You play fair. Thanks for all you do, each & every time you put yourself before the public scrutiny. Yours isn’t an easy job.
By Dennis Richard on 05.14.08 1:35 pm
Excuse moi, could you please SCREAM a little louder? We experienced Old Guys have trouble hearing you due to the wall of BS you attempt to speak through.
If opposing war means opposing soldiers (because they seem hell bent on making support whatever it is they do over there), then so be it. I’ll be damned if I’m going to renounce pacifism because soldiers want a blank cheque of support. If they want to influence policy, they can vote or run for office like everyone else. Until then, they’re just doing a job, no braver than the single mother who goes into work everyday to feed and clothe her kids. No more honourable than any other Canadian.
By CM on 05.14.08 1:49 pm
LMAO! Listening to Feith explain (a very vain and transparent attempt to be sure) the FUBARS of the Bush Administration is almost comical. These morons live in Never Never Land (Presidents Never err, Administrations and their plethora of ‘consultants’ NEVER err, and when caught dead cold they explain it away in terms newly spun by the Liar Spider casting another elusive web of BS).
I truly believe that the former Iraqi Minister of Information, the inoble MSS, is safe and sound in Washington, DC, writing more propaganda for the sheeple.
Jon Stewart’s FULL interview with Feith is an expose of just how bizzare these morons thinking truly is. Stewart spoke for all people Americans and Canadians I think in his summation to Feith.
Interestingly, we have our very own version in Caesar Disgustus, akak Stephen Harper, and his entourage of CRAP Goon Squad parrots.
In a time of economic trouble, this is what we need to hear:
Defence plan pricetag billions more than announced
“A major Canadian defence strategy could cost more than $20-billion more over the next two decades than the Conservative government announced earlier in the week, the Vice Chief of Defence Staff says.
“Lt.-Gen. Walter Natynczyk, Canada’s No. 2 soldier…”
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/425389
Now, where have I heard that name before?
Ahhh…yes…
“LGen Natynczyk attended the U.S. Army War College and was subsequently appointed Deputy Commanding General, III Corps and Fort Hood. In January 2004, he deployed with III Corps to Baghdad, Iraq, serving first as the Deputy Director of Strategy, Policy and Plans and subsequently as the Deputy Commanding General of the Multi-National Corps (Iraq) during Operation IRAQI Freedom. LGen Natynczyk led the Corps’ 35,000 soldiers, consisting of 10 separate brigades, stationed throughout the Iraq Theatre of Operations.
Upon his return to Canada he assumed command of the Land Force Doctrine and Training System. He was subsequently appointed Chief Transformation where he was responsible for implementation of the force restructuring and the enabling processes and policies.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Natynczyk
So much for the Canadian Forces. I get the feeling our people are just a branch plant of the Imperial Army.
You know what is remarkable in all this is rather than apologize and give the conversation in it intended context, Garth self justifies and says he would say the same things again.
Thats the arrogance that offends. You’ve got your puppets on this site that pay you homage but you’ve got a whole host of Canadians both in the military and out that you don’t care what they think.
You don’t care that such comments from politicians are a real source of discouragement to those in harm’s way. You say you support the troops but your treatment of them says differently.
A man of honour and integrity is also a man of humility. No one has ever accused Garth of that.
Vietnam…..I was of course a young man in the RCN during that period of time, and the news is not what it is to-day. I was at sea on a Carrier watching a movie sitting on double deck-er bench when the Cap’t told us JFK was shot. Word around at that time was th at Washington knew Vietnam was a lost cause but as the Russians had shown the US they did not fear a good fight and could loose plenty of troops so could the US. ( for what it is worth the French told the US not to go as did Chretien tell Bush) I have mentioned many times that the US did not know how to fight in a jungle and they have proved they do not know how to fight in the desert and no army knows how to fight in the mountains of Afghanistan. Those who mention the Winds of War make the rich even richer are 100% correct, but to-day this war has driven oil to prices to create profits even the oil giants never dreamed possible…as for dead soldiers, read the Bible over em and then plant them, recruit even more, but be sure not to touch the educated or those with political ties.
By Bill-Muskoka on 05.14.08 2:24 pm
Bill, out of curiosity, I was wondering if you have ever travelled back to our if you intend to travel back to Vietnam? From what I have read and seen it looks like a very nice place to experience their culture. I realize that when you were there with the U.S. you were not there as a tourist, but just wondered if you felt like going back to see what life for the Veitnamese is like post war. I intend to go someday but after our planned trip to Borneo next May. Regards
DENNIS A FORMER LIBERAL.
By Dennis Richard on 05.14.08 1:35 pm
Dennis,presently a brain dead TROLL .
Who cares what you think,idiot ?
By Janice on 05.14.08 2:45 pm
One small point Janice…Garth should only apologize if he is wrong!!! In this case he is not (although perhaps he could have chosen his words more carefully). Any perceived animosity from Garth’s comments are MANUFACTURED BY CPC supporters.
Support our troops by opposing this Afghanistan offensive and bring them home.
We got Garth saying our military blows up Afghan villages and Romeo Dallaire saying our government operates the same as al Qaeda.
Is that the liberals talking points these day? Thats about as popular as the gasoline tax.
By Deny Trudel on 05.14.08 2:36 pm
Respectfully Deny, you have to walk a mile in their shoes. However, I do very much support your position of choice for pacifism and your right to speak out. I hope you continue to do so in as ardent a manner as possible.
Please understand, my fellow Citizen, Soldiers know what they are told, and some professional Soldiers do what they do, due to a basic chemistry. Not necessarily good chemistry. I know the difference, and perhaps one day you will too.
Ahhh Garth, you may have a soft voice doing your interviews, but, your writing does tend to offend many.
Seems that you may be one of those wolves in sheep’s clothing, eh
And btw, even when you were a Conservative MP, I never thought you to be a person who cared who he hurt.
A man of honour and integrity is also a man of humility. No one has ever accused Garth of that.
By Janice on 05.14.08 2:45 pm
err, good journalism Janice also provides a counterbalanced view. He ain’t no messiah, and I tell him so more often than I expect his people would like, but be fair Janice.
Who should we aspire to believe in praytell Fair Maiden? Lead us all from the darkness into the light with your vision.
By Janice on 05.14.08 2:45 pm
You’ve got your puppets on this site that pay you homage but you’ve got a whole host of Canadians both in the military and out that you don’t care what they think.
Dear Janice,
Garth did not say he would not apologize or clarify his statement. He will have to determine how his constituents have reacted to exaggerated opinions on his actual statement in the meeting.
I take exception to your characterization that I do not care about the military. What is happening here is the Conservative party has decided to open up the Afghanistan wedge issue. They want you to think, that I , a small “l” liberal do not recognize the accomplishments of our Armed Forces in harm’s way.
And so the wedge begins…
Did anyone see rookie London Liberal MP Glen Pearson interview with Talk Politics on CBC.
Mr. Pearson has refused to participate both in committee and question period with the kind of attack questions and slurs that characterize all political parties particularly the Conservatives and his Liberal party.
He has received criticism from within his own party and even indicated that he wondered about quitting.
We need more Glen Pearson’s who have real integrity. Who refuse to engage in name calling, slander, gossip, and other assorted dishonest spin miasma.
By Harry S on 05.13.08 11:31 pm
Whazzup, Garth … did you miss my valid questions or have you been duct-taped by der grupenfeuhrer at headquarters …???!!!
Is this the back door to gutting the Wheat Board?
OTTAWA, May 14 /CNW Telbec/ – Conservative government plans to
drastically reduce Canadian Grain Commission spending will hurt grain
producers and Canada’s international reputation for quality, according to
three former senior officials of the federal agency and the Agriculture Union
which represents employees of the CGC.
A new government spending forecast released this morning comes to light a
day before Agriculture Minister Ritz is scheduled to testify on his
department’s spending before the Commons Agriculture Committee.
A spending forecast published by the federal government shows Grain
Commission producer protection programs will be slashed by 67% while grain
quality programs will be reduced by almost half and research programs will be
cut by 60%.
“As Ottawa’s contribution goes down, producer costs will rise,” said
Albert Schatzke, a former Commissioner of the Canadian Grain Commission.
The spending forecast is in line with a Conservative government
legislative proposal – Bill C-39 – which would gut the Grain Commission’s
inspection, weighing and independent oversight that ensures producers are
treated fairly.
The Canadian Grain Commission protects producers by ensuring their grain
shipments are accurately weighed and graded so growers are properly paid. The
Commission’s independent arbitration process levels the playing field between
individual producers and the powerful grain companies they must deal with when
disputes arise.
“These cuts will undermine grain producers in their dealings with grain
companies, which have never been more powerful. Canada’s reputation for top
quality grain will be hurt too. You can’t protect producers and make these
cuts at the same time,” said Bob Douglas.
These Commission activities would be eliminated by Bill C-39, against the
unanimous advice of the all-party Commons Agriculture Committee which recently
completed a study on the future of the Grain Commission.
Product safety is another important role of the Canadian Grain
Commission.
Inward inspections conducted by the CGC before grain gets into the
terminal elevator system identify dangerous contaminants like mercury and
fungi such as ergot and fusarium — bio hazards that are extremely dangerous
to human health. Inward inspections also offer early warning alerts of the
presence of glass, metal shavings, rocks and other safety hazards in grain
shipments arriving at terminal elevators, as well as bug infestations. C-39
would kill inward inspection services by the Grain Commission.
“At a time when food safety is a top priority for Canadians, Bill C-39 is
undermining the safety of Canadian grain products,” said Donna Welke.
“The Agriculture Union calls on the Government to withdraw this flawed
legislation. Minister Ritz should also instruct the Canadian Grain Commission
to, at the very least, maintain the level of service it now provides to
producers,” concluded Bob Kingston, Executive Vice-President of the
Agriculture Union (PSAC).
Albert Schatzke was Alberta Commissioner of the Canadian Grain Commission
(1997- 2006); Donna Welke is the former Assistant Commissioner from
Saskatchewan (1994 – 2006), Bob Douglas is the former Assistant Commissioner
from Manitoba (2000 – 2006)
The Agriculture Union – PSAC represents 9500 people who work at
Agriculture Canada, the Canadian Grain Commission, the Canadian Food
Inspection Agency, and other workplaces.
-30-
/For further information: Jim Thompson, (613) 447-9592; Peter Bleyer,
(613) 292-6929/
Well lookie here,Karzai only wants another $50 BILLION.And if it was to go the poor starving people who need it most then I’m all for it.But this is not the case,nor it is anywhere near the case.
The people of Afghan. who dare to speak out,as far as I’m concerned, tell the true story.
And no amount of political or military spin can refute that.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/05/14/afghanistan-aid.html
This is beyond belief, is there no one or way that this can be stopped. Surely there must be some legal action that can be take.
We’re just Hangering out for a while: Liveblogging the Justice Committee
By Kady O’Malley | Email | May 14th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Well, that was weird. Apparently, someone told the security at Wellington that this was an in camera meeting, and reporters weren’t allowed to even wait outside in the hallway—which would be weird even if it was in camera, which it wasn’t. Thankfully, I was able to wander up here anyway, and I made sure to tell someone that this was going on, so they could correct that bit of misinformation. I can’t imagine where the guards would have gotten that idea. Can you? Why, if that was the case, we wouldn’t be able to cover the flight of the Hanger!
3:31:14 PM
No quorum. Or, wait, there is quorum, actually, although the Conservatives are arguing amongst themselves—but loudly enough across the table so I can hear—whether it counts or not. If they don’t have quorum, the chair can adjourn; I know there are opposition MPs here.
And here they are—as well as a small throng of reporters who had been temporarily detained by the security guards. The MPs look grimly determined; Hanger looks—inscrutable. But he always looks inscrutable.
3:36:16 PM
The chair just kicked off the meeting, and the opposition is already itching for a fight: Brian Murphy brought up the misunderstanding over media access, and the chair assured him that the meeting was open—not in camera—despite what security might have thought. Now he’s reading the 106(4) letter—which is why we’re gathered here today—and, I think, is once again about to rule the motion out of order. Which means no meeting, I guess.
He has reasons—the chair, that is—for his decision, but really … Well, that’s it. This situation is fundamentally at odds with reason, reality and common sense. I don’t know what they’re going to do if they actually want to pass a Justice bill.
3:39:57 PM
Real Menard is furious. “It’s going to be the same in September, in October—forever,” he tells the chair. Now the members are fighting amongst themselves—not with fists, at least not yet. And with that, it’s off to watch David Cronenberg, and a functional committee.
By Harry S on 05.13.08 11:31 pm
Whazzup, Garth … did you miss my valid questions or have you been duct-taped by der grupenfeuhrer at headquarters …???!!!
By Harry S on 05.14.08 3:52 pm
Harry, with the crap & venom coming out of your mouth on most posts, you don’t deserve the time of day let alone answers of any sort. Take a hike Harry, preferable in the Sahara Desert & please take Janice / Catherine with you. You are pathetic. BBTW Janis, I voted for Harper last election & I will be voting him out on the next. You can be sure of that.
Shake Hands with the General
Mr. Kenney
May 14, 2008
For immediate release
Statement by Senator Roméo Dallaire on Canada’s inaction on the case of Omar Khadr
It is my firm belief that nations like Canada must act to protect and enforce international law and codes of behaviour that we have ratified through the United Nations over decades. These laws have been established to safeguard human rights, to protect human beings caught up in wars and conflict and to give us the serenity that the rule of law prevails.
It is my strongly-held view that the continued, illegal incarceration and prosecution of Omar Khadr – who was a 15-year-old child soldier at the time of his arrest in 2002 – puts the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict into jeopardy. Further, our acquiescence with his continued incarceration and prosecution puts in question Canada’s standing as a nation that respects global human rights and international law. More than ever before, the new global challenges we face in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, require nations like Canada to protect and enforce international law.
Frankly, I think it is a distraction from the issue at hand to engage in a debate over the semantics of my response to a loaded question raised by a Conservative MP at the House of Commons Subcommittee on International Human Rights, who asked whether I was equating the Canadian and the American governments as equal to Al-Qaeda in terms of terrorism. Suffice it to say that I in no way intended to equate Canadian or U.S. authorities with the terrorist organization Al Qaeda. But we cannot avoid the point that if we violate international law in our pursuit of the war on terror, we risk reducing ourselves, collectively, to the same level as those we oppose.
I stand by my views about the descent into uncertainty and the risk that our nation faces when we fiddle with basic tenants of human rights, international law and conventions and do so in the name of protecting our security.
The more we permit our political leaders to act outside of these same rules, the more we expose ourselves to potential abuses and loss of freedom and individual rights.
What is clear to me is that we, Canada, have no legal basis on which to justify our inaction in allowing a Canadian citizen and the first ever child soldier to be prosecuted for war-crimes in an illegal process in Guantanamo Bay.
As more facts surrounding Khadr’s detention and this illegal process have become available, the issue is clear as well as the risks. UN officials have said that this prosecution will set a dangerous precedent that will put at risk the future of thousands of children we pledged to protect and to assist with disarmament and reintegration into society.
Support our troops by opposing this Afghanistan offensive and bring them home.
By Reefer Sutherland from the Big Smoke on 05.14.08 3:32 pm
Reef, you are entitled to that opinion. Many Canadians feel the same way.
However, the liberals have voted to extend the mission in Afghan twice, once to 2009 now til 2011. If they are voting in favour of the mission then don’t you think they are somewhat obligated to support the mission and the troops in mediums such as web blogs and public meetings?
Garth gives a drive by slap to the troops and justifies it. All I want to know is, is that the liberal position or is he a lone wolf, again.
Garth, speaking of smears…what about Julie Couillard? I am wondering why if certain people like Mr. Dion & Mr. Duceppe really thought she was such a huge ’security risk’ why didn’t they quietly go to the authorities? I mean, do they not realize what they have done to this woman? She is a CND citizen, never charged for any illegal activity but now, 10 years after she for whatever reason, was involved with undesirables has had her life ripped apart and is now known as a ‘mob moll’. Did any Liberal or Bloc member consider what this would do to her? Her right to privacy was stripped away. Her life must be a living hell right about now. Did anyone consider what her personal story might be? Did anyone consider that to escape her former life she may have risked her life to do so?
We all went bonkers over Brenda Martin. Yet, we salivate the juicy gossip that stomps on the human rights and dignity of this lady. There is no where she can go in this country, her home, that this now won’t follow her. Perhaps since this has become a public political fight, it will once again put her in real danger. Did anyone in our political realm or the media think about her for one second before outing her like this?
I think anything you are complaining about regarding your own personal security or right to privacy is small potatoes compared to what this woman, who I repeat is an innocent Canadian. What a price to pay for one’s mistakes in a distant past….
Leasa
Garth did not say he would not apologize or clarify his statement. He will have to determine how his constituents have reacted to exaggerated opinions on his actual statement in the meeting.
I take exception to your characterization that I do not care about the military. What is happening here is the Conservative party has decided to open up the Afghanistan wedge issue. They want you to think, that I , a small “l” liberal do not recognize the accomplishments of our Armed Forces in harm’s way.
And so the wedge begins…
By Bonnie N BC on 05.14.08 3:45 pm
Are you saying Garth needs to poll the people to find out what he is thinking?
And Bonnie, I don’t know where you read that I said you don’t support the troops.
One can certainly make the argument Garth doesn’t.
Whazzup, Garth … did you miss my valid questions or have you been duct-taped by der grupenfeuhrer at headquarters …???!!!
By Harry S on 05.14.08 3:52 pm
LMAO….
Is that the liberals talking points these day? Thats about as popular as the gasoline tax.
By Janice on 05.14.08 3:38 pm
And as popular as the CPC cutting seniors CPP and OAS benefits by 20%.
Just another quick thought while we are discussing Afghan.
State your position on this issue clearly Garth. I know one individual can’t speak for a liberal caucus bent on humiliating itself, and abandoning it’s principles, but one person can speak to a Nation.
But you knew that already.
By Ted Browne on 05.14.08 4:01 pm
I would imagine that the CPC government would have many dollars to contribute, at least 5 billion they are stealing from Ontario in equalization and then the money they are saving by ignoring the manufacturing sector but they better do it quick because very bad times ahead for most of Canada.
By TS on 05.14.08 5:07 am
Excellent post, TS and I fully concur.
Get our troops out of combat, out of Af’stan altogether, or if they must stay to fulfill their mission, then switch post-haste to a rebuilding one — some positive spin, for a change.
Let the war-mongerers continue in their incessant joy at blowing up innocent people — these are the despots (such as cheney, dubya, harpo etc.) who have yet to see hell for what it truly is.
By Marc on 05.14.08 3:27 pm
Hi Marc, Charles here.
You asked Bill about Vietnam.
My brother and his ladyfriend, who teach ESL in southern China, right next door to Hong Kong, recently spent three weeks on holiday in ‘Nam.
Both said it is one of the most glorious places they have ever visited — no need for cars, rent scooters to get around, trekked up into the mountains, the people are so happy and friendly and the food — although a little spicy — is really good.
Quite different from China, and the whole area surrounding it is well worth a visit.
By Janice on 05.14.08 4:35 pm
Dear Janice
A good MP listens to his constituents. It is a matter of understanding whether people believe these characterizations or he needs to talk to people in his riding to answer on what he really said and why.
If you consider that a poll you are entitled to that opinion.
My point about supporting troops is the usual Conservative talking point always uses “you are for us or against us”.
Sorry not a puppet of any MP – just interested in a true dialogue.
Garth is not my MP – I am in BC.
The Glove Mr. Garth, lies at your feet. 64% of Canadians oppose the involvement in Afghanistan. Are you principled enough to represent the People, or is your rhetoric about democracy in keeping with the rest?
Is there anyone out there other than HArry,Leasa,and Catherine who actually like Harper? I almost felt sorry for him today.
Bad grades for Harper’s handling of labour market: study
Don Butler , Canwest News Service
Published: 3 hours ago
OTTAWA – Business leaders give failing grades to the Harper government for its handling of eight labour market issues they identify as priorities, according to a survey commissioned by a federal department
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?id=84660c50-19fa-40e5-b33f-58c0c4cc92f5
One can certainly make the argument Garth doesn’t.
By Janice on 05.14.08 4:35 pm
More partisan crap based on zero….you might want to learn about priority spending, then come back with an intelligent comment!
Get our troops out of combat, out of Af’stan altogether, or if they must stay to fulfill their mission, then switch post-haste to a rebuilding one — some positive spin, for a change.
Let the war-mongerers continue in their incessant joy at blowing up innocent people — these are the despots (such as cheney, dubya, harpo etc.) who have yet to see hell for what it truly is.
By Charles Oxley on 05.14.08 4:47 pm
Thats all very nice. The problem seems to be the terrorists didn’t get the memo. Someone needs to let them know we are there to build schools and hospitals so stop shooting at us. Go after the ones looking for a fight.
Maybe Dion should go with Obama and negotiate with them.
By Janice on 05.14.08 4:35 pm
Are you up to answering those who disagree with your positions or are you all about soap box postulating? Cowards abound, are you just another one of them?
It appears that you are just another mental weakling from the dark side. Could this be so?
By Sid on 05.14.08 9:22 amSo utterly tiresome is this bizarre myth that has sprung up about how soldiers are apparently some higher beings that simply cannot be criticized.
Sid, you are so right, I could not have said it better. Bravo.
By keith phibbs on 05.14.08 5:33 pm
If you think that Harper is bad, do you think that Dion, Ignatieff, Rae or even Layton would be an improvement ??!!
(Of course it goes without saying that our MP Garth would eclipse everybody if ……)
Harper is going to reduce CPP payments for seniors by 20%.
How disgusting, EI payments will be next.
Mark my word.
Janice: Actually we are the ones who are looking for the fight right now. We are on the offensive and routing them out.
And if we heeded advice, even from our own troops, we would be opening up the lines of communication. Everyone admits that this war will not be solved militarily so diplomacy must be initiated.
For some reason Harper isnt listening to the people on the ground.
In today’s mail: a mailing piece from the Conservative Government about protecting Canadians against identity theft and fraud, from, of all people, Rahim Jaffer.
Loraine Lamontagne, Mississauga-Erin
Get our troops out of combat, out of Af’stan altogether, or if they must stay to fulfill their mission, then switch post-haste to a rebuilding one — some positive spin, for a change.
By Charles Oxley on 05.14.08 4:47 pm
I used to agree with the role of rebuilding but this gov’t says we can’t have one without the other(other meaning offensive war)
There’s an old saying that goes like this…”your first mistake is always the smallest”
We made a mistake going there and we better get out before it gets worse.
ps: I just about hurled my pizza when I saw Harper standing in front of a huge Canadian flag and behind a podium covered in camouflage.
Keith: And now Harper has made it virtually impossible for Canada to get a seat on the U.N Security Council.
His small-minded, “I want to be the commander in chief” mentality has alienated Canada.
When we did have a seat we were able to broker the Land Mines Treaty and the International Criminal Court policy.
You know, in the days when we actually had a Foreign Affairs Minister who had experience, tact and great communication skills.
Harper has such a weak foreign policy that he is so afraid of being rejected that he won’t seek a place for Canada.
Canadians should be embarrassed by this dismal showing and lack of leadership.
And when the Afghan mission expires in 2011 wouldn’t it have been beneficial to have a say in what happens after that?
Maybe Dion should go with Obama and negotiate with them.
By Janice on 05.14.08 5:37 pm
We were thinking of sending you since you have such wonderful diplomatic skills….
Leasa: Julie gave up her right to privacy the day she showed up at the swearing in hanging on to Maxime’s arm.
And when she flew to Afghanistan with him on official business.
She is not a victim. Legitimate questions have been asked. Mr. Bernier could have saved her some notoriety if he had quickly and succinctly answered the question. Was she cleared through security processes? Yes or No.?
It is Mr. Harper who continued today to mention Mr. Bernier”s girlfriend—so now who is “maligning” her?
Thats all very nice. . . . It appears that you are just another mental weakling from the dark side. . . .
By Janice on 05.14.08 5:37 pm
By Greg on 05.14.08 5:42 pm
In wasting mine, and most other people’s time in responding to you, Janice, all I will say is that harpo and his sleazebags are in their master’s — dubya — pockets.
Say, your rant remind me of my ex-girlfriend — Ms. The Shadow Knows — she was full of methane, much like CRAP.
Add yourself to the dark side, and don’t come back — that’s where y’all belong.
Oscar: You fail to mention that the enemy targets are in Afghan villages.
So, in truth, these obscenely expensive shells will, when used, wipe out villages.
Or do you think they will use them to blow up a single hut?
Now I have seen it all!!
I often voice my opposition to the Conservative party’s policies through my M.P., Gary Schellenberger.
But I have always praised him for his demeanour in the House during Question Period. I have never seen him indulge in the crass and childish antics that are so prevalent.
That is until the last few days.
To my dismay Gary Schellenberger has become one of the back up singers for Pierre Poilievre–they must have practised in the back room–right on cue Gary pipes in unisons—”in–out, in–out”
Not what the constituents expect from Gary.
He has descended.
Garth …… now we hear from Liberal MP Dominic Leblanc on CTV Duffy Live today … clearly stating that the ‘carbon tax’ is not a certain thing, unless the leader decides on it … which sounds like Dominic, representing the NB riding of Beausejour, is sweating because everybody in his riding heats with fuel oil which would be whacked by Dions Carbon Tax … looks like some Liberal MPs are bailing on Dion and his Carbon Tax anchor …!!!
Since a Dion Carbon Tax would have a direct and indirect impact on the Ontario car manufacturers, will you now publicly eschew Dion’s idiotic carbon tax on behalf of your Halton constituents many of whom work in the auto industry …???
Speak up or forever hold your piece …..
By Charles Oxley on 05.14.08 6:26 pm
But Charles, they claim exclusivity in supporting our troops, they send them over there, provide sanctuary for the enemy so they can get picked off, then claim anyone who is against the mission as being Taliban lovers…all the time, they are the ones who do not support the troops, they support the ammo suppliers and the big money that backs war…to them troops are expendable and a great political toy…Harper nose is so brown from following GWB….his make up person is working overtime…and people like Janice are like little puppets doing the master’s bidding…only because they can’t think for themselves…
By Ron p on 05.14.08 9:44 am
When you say you can’t stand the Liberal party, you are saying you can’t stand me. I can forgive you but I will continue to support troops(not the war) until you are all home again.
Don’t take so personal Ron. I wasn’t directing anything at you.
It very hard for me to give Liberals my vote based on the following:
-Chrétien’s famous “Zero helicopters” speech. Keep using Sea kings. Only 20 hours maintenance for every hour of flight.
-When the Liberals finally decided to pick a helicopter, it had to be totally different than the original because that would mean they made a mistake.
-Dismantle of airborne regiment after shutting down Somalia inquiry.
-During Manitoba floods, Chrétien fills “one” sandbag for a photo-op and disappears.
-MASSIVE budget cuts-and pay freeze. Thirty thousand less soldiers!
-Sent troops to Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Haiti, and Afghanistan poorly equipped and denied anytime we did combat because “Canadians are strictly peacekeepers.”
-Have you ever had to spend an extra few weeks away from home (after being away for several months) because you were waiting for a serviceable herc to come pick you up before you could go back home? 15 out 20 of my herc flight had mechanical delays.
-Purchase old subs from the Brits they no longer used.
-Gave bonuses for early retirement. A few years later gave bonuses to recruit the same people back in because our numbers were short on experienced people. After several training facilities were torn down, rebuilt them again to support new recruits.
-Martin balanced the federal budget by doing the following:
-25% cut to military
-Closed several bases
-Cut transfer payments to provinces thus increasing the debt of provinces and burden of health care on them. In Ontario, the Liberal government recouped it’s losses by adding a health care premium. (CF person posted to Ontario pay this although military do not belong to any provincial health care plans.
-Cut EI qualification criteria and created a humongous surplus in the fund. EI is a tax on jobs. The less EI we pay, the more money would be available for wages for employers.
-Opposed, then embraced free trade, Opposed, then embraced the GST.
-The sponsorship scandal was the final straw and the rest is history.
Military persons are not allowed to publicly criticize their government without grave consequences. After Somalia, it was much easier and the political will was there for Paul Martin to abandon us and help balance his budget on our backs. Its so refreshing to hold my head high once again and not be ashamed to wear my uniform because we finally have a government that is putting serious funds back into recruiting and equipment and a public that now again supports our troops. Even if you don’t support the war, we still need support to help us be prepared for the next battle. Canadians are so complacent until something happens here. Garth, your party abandoned us in the 1990s. Former Defence critic Denis Coderre can kiss mine and every CF member’s ass when he complained about Gen Hillier talking about the “dark 1990’s and how he was out of line for criticizing the previous government. The truth hurts. Boo hoo.
I do have Liberal friends. We just don’t talk politics, because it pisses me off.
Cheers.
By Charles Oxley on 05.14.08 6:26 pm
Charles, re: Janice
It’s about Heroes. I asked her in my own way, who are the Heroes?
I’m waiting for your answer Janice.
We’ve already lost any moral high ground we once possessed as a nation. And Harper pulling out stakes for a top United Nation seat shows how embarrassed he is. Even Biker-girl Max won’t comment. EU despises us anyway because of the environmental spinelessness, so no votes there. Wonder if we can go back to criticizing Israel now without being labelled anti-Jewish by HarpoCo? Since our reputation sux now I think it would be cool for some brave MP/Senator to just say why Portugal and Germany are shoo-ins and we’re not. Of course they are more independent of Bushwacko’s foreign policies.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080514.wseat14/BNStory/National/home
However, the liberals have voted to extend the mission in Afghan twice, once to 2009 now til 2011. If they are voting in favour of the mission then don’t you think they are somewhat obligated to support the mission and the troops in mediums such as web blogs and public meetings?
Garth gives a drive by slap to the troops and justifies it. All I want to know is, is that the liberal position or is he a lone wolf, again.
By Janice on 05.14.08 4:31 pm
Where is this drive by smear, Janice? And don’t regurgitate the Janke crap.
Personally, I see it as part of the debate on how the NATO mission will achieve its goals. Do we spend approx $100K to miss a target by 200m rather than 500m (a miss is a miss!), or could that money be better spent? Directly supporting the troops would mean buying as many of these shells as are required. But maybe instead of being myopic, using some of that money to help the Afghanis directly give our troops a better chance of succeeding as those Afghanis who are turning to the Talibhan may have reason not too!
By wjp on 05.14.08 7:02 pm
Couldn’t have put it better myself!
*******************************************
More BS from the msm, which is why I haven’t bothered with it for a few years now.
Not too long ago, I posted a link which said the hidden inflation was running about 10-12% in the US, although it’s probably closer to 15% with all the foreclosures, financial meltdowns, etc. all taking their toll.
With gas regularly shooting ahead, the same is pretty much happening here, but these reports won’t be seen in the msm.
http://tinyurl.com/6p9wyv
****************************************
Interesting that Barcelona, Spain now imports water for it’s citizens.
Heard today that a possible second cyclone is headed toward Burma, although not too sure of that.
Wow Garth you are going to fry a bit over this one!! I don’t believe it was your intent to discredit the military but that is what has happened if the reporter is accurate. There won’t be a lot of point in wasting money and time calling on Military households next election. Less dramatic effect phrases should benefit you in the future if there is one.
Harper nose is so brown from following GWB….his make up person is working overtime…and people like Janice are like little puppets doing the master’s bidding…only because they can’t think for themselves…
By wjp on 05.14.08 7:02 pm
Hence the saying ‘What is the difference between a Brown Noser and a Kiss Ass? Depth perception!’
By James- Chatham on 05.14.08 8:38 pm
The WOPR would advise ‘The only winning move is not to play!’
Good night!
They doth protest too much. The question is why?
Interesting how the Cons would latch on to this?? Perhaps it’s because there are so many Canadians out there who make 60K+ a year and are considered ‘working poor’?? Spending 150K for one missile??
Glad to see my tax dollars are well spent.
Paul R.,
I do beg your pardon, but you are a jackass. Your reasons for hating the Liberals reveal only your ignorance of government, politics and National Defence in Canada.
It’s too late in the day to deal with your allegations in detail, but we will have opportunity to cross swords in future, since I am sure that you will feature in our Troll Patrol.
By the way, Garth, in your honour I propose “Garth’s Law”: “If something can be misconstrued by political opponents, it will be”. And its First Corollary: “Weigh your words – in carats!”
Oh my God goodness Dear God; What happening to our ounce Good Canada/
What do you think is the Primary Purpose of our brand New Government?
What’s up with this? Thanks.
Actually Herb, Paul R. is bang on in everything he said. I’d love for you to find the time to challenge any of his points.
It would be very interesting to see what arguments that you might come up with.
But as you already indicated, it is “too late in the day to deal with your allegations in detail…”
How about tomorrow. I’d really enjoy to see the exchange. I suspect that it would be a one-sided affair. And not in your favour.
Ed the Hun
This once fine forum has descended in to the hateful and vile bile of Liberals in panic mode … without policies … without decency … without a leader …just a gaggle of desperate voices lashing out against their sworn enemies … other Canadians … and they revel in their shameful conduct as they go down the sewer of their own making …. so pathetic ….!!
Garth, you really should explain your words, maybe you can change the subject to Dion’s carbon tax, that should be a winner for you.
Gord.
Don’t take so personal Ron. I wasn’t directing anything at you
By Paul R on 05.14.08 7:08 pm
Well Paul, I do take it personally. Let me ask you this. Why did you join our armed forces? and I want an answer other than ” I want to serve my country.”
You bad mouth Liberals about poor pay ,benefits ,and crappy uniforms etc etc, but I’ll bet you own a pair of Oakley’s.
So WTF are you talking about, you’re in the army now, you’ll never get rich.
Secondly , as I mentioned in an earlier post, Chretien saved YOUR ASS from going to Irag where you would have been shot up like fish in a barrel and if you think otherwise then I suggest you get another job. How much is that worth to you and your family in dollars?
You are starting to piss me off but I’ll continue to support our troops as I and my fellow Canadians will. You work for me now and don’t you forget it.
HI HERB ,
Our young soldier has a lot to learn and I believe you can do the job.
I’ve got your back covered.
This once fine forum has descended in to the hateful and vile bile of Liberals in panic mode … without policies … without decency … without a leader …just a gaggle of desperate voices lashing out against their sworn enemies … other Canadians … and they revel in their shameful conduct as they go down the sewer of their own making …. so pathetic ….!!
By Harry S on 05.14.08 10:53 pm
Harry, you are describing the Reform Party & yourself to a tee. Why would the Liberals reveal all their polices knowing full well that Harpoon & his scavengers will only recycle them & use them for their own? Are you that dense or in your mind only, important? BTW, I don’t see Harper revealing any of his polices.
Keep in mind bigot Harry that Mr. Dion is the opposition & until an election is called, he doesn’t have to reveal anything to you or your out of control party. You’ll just have to wait like the rest of us. I really feel sorry for you. Your a sick man.
Cheers
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 05.14.08 10:37 pm
Take a hike Hun . No one missed your stupid militant posts .
Harper is going to reduce CPP payments for seniors by 20%.
How disgusting, EI payments will be next.
Mark my word.
By defeatist of the maritimes on 05.14.08 6:07 pm
Links please.
Actually Herb, Paul R. is bang on in everything he said. I’d love for you to find the time to challenge any of his points.
It would be very interesting to see what arguments that you might come up with.
But as you already indicated, it is “too late in the day to deal with your allegations in detail…”
How about tomorrow. I’d really enjoy to see the exchange. I suspect that it would be a one-sided affair. And not in your favour.
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 05.14.08 10:37 pm
Why wait?
I’ll tear it apart right now, if you don’t mind.
-Chrétien’s famous “Zero helicopters” speech. Keep using Sea kings. Only 20 hours maintenance for every hour of flight.
Ah, the ancient sea kings. 20 hrs to maintenance to 1 hr of flight simply reveals just how much these things are needed by our nation. Do you seriously believe this ratio would change after spending 4 billion (plus 300 million every year that follows from interest on debt, since paying down principle on fed debt these days is passe’. I’d really like for you all to explain how brainard genius endlessly paying interest only on 465 billion makes sense. Is there a one of us who believes we should do the same thing to morgages? What are we subsidizing banks now? Oh, wait, just the american ones by our wonderfully unelected cabinet minister Fortier who needs not answer to democracy or play by its rules) 4 billion on heli’s for what outside greedy defense contractors and politicians in line for directorships and its share ops to get in on the latest resource war. What a brilliant plan.
-When the Liberals finally decided to pick a helicopter, it had to be totally different than the original because that would mean they made a mistake.
Please explain to us what kind of heli that is. Links, please and bet you can’t without making yourself look even sillier than you are about to be.
-Dismantle of airborne regiment after shutting down Somalia inquiry.
I knew one of the men in that same regiment. Kevin was one of the finest individuals I’d ever met or known. What did he have to say about it? “The one that brutally murdered two Somalians will get his.” When Kevin said it, I couldn’t help but believe it will happen before God gets a hold of him.
The facts the way my friend explained it, was that there literal nutbars on first airborne. Hero’s and assholes is what this regiment was full of and the dirty secret is that this regiment was the first to land anywhere. This regiment saw the roughest action of all regiments and took very little recognition for it. By the time Somalia rolled around, too many of the same soldiers saw too much combat. First airborne wasn’t shut down due to embarrassment. It was shut down due to the fact that the men in first airborne had seen too much and the only way to deal with it in terms of replacing them was dismantle it.
Was it the right decision? How many times can you send the same team out to hell holes and not expect something bad like Somalia to go down… should the regiment have been replaced with new faces? Whole new can of worms. Rookies aren’t the same as vets, heros and assholes or no. Its was damage control, pure and simple, but not in the way you think.
-During Manitoba floods, Chrétien fills “one” sandbag for a photo-op and disappears.
Do you have the slightest clue how many ops ALL politicians go for? The one who is the most photo opportunistic of all, is Harper who is, to anyone with eyes, in his own league. Chretien vs Harper photo ops? Like comparing carrots and bicycles.
-MASSIVE budget cuts-and pay freeze. Thirty thousand less soldiers!
Yup! Budgetary. Needed and soon answered.
-Sent troops to Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Haiti, and Afghanistan poorly equipped and denied anytime we did combat because “Canadians are strictly peacekeepers.”
I’d really like to hear your definition of “combat” in terms of a planned mission in these nations. Truly. We get shot at, we return fire, its protocol. But combat missions? Only first airborne participated in what you hazily define as “combat” in the Cretien years, you couldn’t get the nations involved right and you still have no grasp as to why first airborne was shut down. Did it ever occur to you that first airborne was in some ways badly managed and too hair trigger trained, that there were reasons why it was shut down that a knowitall such as yourself simply did not know?
Martin… you might have a chance with him nearing the end of 2005 when the Libs looked like they were going to lose the election and the Cons were going to win and generals began to call the shots from their own bubbles. After Harper got in, troop sizes doubled in Afghanistan and the mission went to combat for almost a full year before people in our nation were even told and the Cons took full credit for this in the Con/Lib “comprimize” on Afghanistan. Its a matter of record. Truly, you should read what’s in that record. Why not save your angst for the true hypocrites of the game?
As for the rest, let ‘er rip and keep the lies down to a minimum, they’ll be caught as quickly as one picks up the phone. Ironically and dumbly, you missed the nation that gave us the most casualties besides the one south of us that fires “friendly”, but now I’m splitting hairs. As for under equipped, under equipped for what? Peace keeping? Or combat of which this nation never knew for almost a full year under Harper even though our soldiers kept returning in boxes. And you think the Liberals are bad? Only a blind partisan hypocrite would ignore such recent history to compare under the Cons.
-Have you ever had to spend an extra few weeks away from home (after being away for several months) because you were waiting for a serviceable herc to come pick you up before you could go back home? 15 out 20 of my herc flight had mechanical delays.
Poor baby. And for this, you feel that 4 billion plus 300 million every year after should be taken away from social programs due to the fact that you had to wait a couple weeks… and got paid for it. Times are tough, eh?
-Purchase old subs from the Brits they no longer used.
Ranks right up there with purchasing 200 worn out panzers that couldn’t take the heat in Afghan. You think buying used subs and tanks are dumb, try the idea of buying them at all. In case you’re unawares, this was a nation of peace before the idiot U.S. multinational corporate lobbyist Harper sellout came in to spread our tax dollars around to his corrupt Republican/CEO friends.
-Gave bonuses for early retirement. A few years later gave bonuses to recruit the same people back in because our numbers were short on experienced people. After several training facilities were torn down, rebuilt them again to support new recruits.
Ah, budgets. Almost there.
-Martin balanced the federal budget by doing the following:
-25% cut to military
-Closed several bases
-Cut transfer payments to provinces thus increasing the debt of provinces and burden of health care on them. In Ontario, the Liberal government recouped it’s losses by adding a health care premium. (CF person posted to Ontario pay this although military do not belong to any provincial health care plans.
So what you are saying is that after watching the fed deficit balloon from 194 billion in 84′ to 524 billion in 94′ after witnessing Mulroney rack up 330 billion in fresh debt over 10 years, Chretien is supposed to spend like there’s no tomarrow, tell us there’s no problem with debt and currency when our debt to GDP ratio was flirting near 80% (which, when a nation gets around the 100%, generally goes bankrupt) and at the same time, not raise taxes and somehow run surplus’s to get our currency under control?
Are you on glue? You like to sniff solvents? One too many cap concussions from squeezing a trigger? The only reason why we have prosperity today is because these choices had to be done. Military cuts? There were cuts across the board in the 90’s. And tax increases across the board too! And if the provinces didn’t take the brunt of it in a currency/debt crisis like this, our dollar would have been worth pennies and our commodities would have sold for next to nothing and we wouldn’t know what present prosperity is. Poor puppies whining now… a real hero in the works, you are.
-Cut EI qualification criteria and created a humongous surplus in the fund. EI is a tax on jobs. The less EI we pay, the more money would be available for wages for employers.
This one is laughable. EI was created in 81′ and since its creation, ran up over 24 billion in deficits before one surplus showed up, its true. People talk about media guessedtimated 53 billion dollar surplus’s over 13 years without ever talking about the deficits (without compound interest included) as though its a big cash cow. After the smoke and mirrors clears, not counting deficit interest (which was runaway, double digits in the 80’s all this time we ran deficits during recessions, was it not?) our EI surplus since conception is around 15 billion… exactly what we should have in the kitty for a recession, like the nasty real estate recession thats right around the corner for us. Sharp as a marble, you are.
-Opposed, then embraced free trade, Opposed, then embraced the GST.
Try opposed free trade and introduced NAFTFA which should be renegotiated, contrary to what our U.S. corporate puppet plant sellout Harper and crooked Emerson has to say. Cons defending Liberal policy… maybe its time they just… passed the ball.
GST? Everyone who heard Cretien say we didn’t need a GST knew we did. So why did he say it… did he have to? No. He was assured a majority because the Cons really did blow it that severely. Cretien either lied, or he was naive. I’ll make no excuses for him on this one. He blew it. Is it enough to crucify him for it? Hardly. He made the right choice in the end and kept it… or do you, like the rest, believe dumbly that we didn’t need the revenue… (really shaking my head now)
-The sponsorship scandal was the final straw and the rest is history.
Cretien blew it there too! He, more than anyone, should have known not to give MP’s purse power in ministerial positions, never mind otherwise. He should have also known the MP’s from Quebec that served under him better than he did. Again, no excuses. He blew it and it cost this nation huge as a result. It cost this nation confidence in our government as a whole, but even worse, it cost this nation with all the damage being done by a government that is pulling off stuff that is even more scandalous. At least the Libs didn’t try to buy a federal election outright, if not MP’s directly.
If you think the Cons haven’t pulled off worse than adscam, think again. We are talking about more than a few corrupt Quebec Lib MP’s that steal from their own party, never mind the tax payer. Were talking about an entire political party that has made every attempt to buy an election outright from taxpayer bought propaganda, to “election campaign scams to bribing MP’s.
Garth is right. We need an election. A real one this time.
As for the rest of your post, I’m sure German soldiers in WWII felt “loved” because they had their needs met, but it didn’t make ‘em winners.
Wake up, buddy. Your in a bubble. Your no different than any other self centered person in any other occupation who believes their ability to carry out an “act” justifies the act itself. You’re arguements for blowing major wads of dough on military hardware are about as silly as farmers who whine about not having the machinery they need to grow opiates, cocaine or tobacco, oblivious to the harm their actions/crops produce.
If it was food? They’ve got a point. If soldiers kept the peace? They’ve got a point but think!!! How equipped does one need to be to “observe” or keep the peace?
In the meantime, an unjust war by no means supports the need for Canadians to pour what is likely to amount to 50 billion in an endless, unwinnable war that will leave nothing but victims… and for what. A Chevron oil play? A Unocal pipeline? Defense contractors? Exxon tankers? 14 million “future” capitalist consumers so dullard corps assume?
In the end, all we’ll be remembered for is joining another CIA spun plot gone bad civil war where we backed 14 million Dari’s with a corrupt CIA plant led government against 14 million Pushtins in Afghan and a further 28 million Pushtins in Pakistan who cross an undefendable border as they please and after having said that, please tell me why you or anyone else believes this war is winnable or won’t endlessly drag itself out.
Yeah… I’d like to see poppy cultivation stopped to a large degree as much as anyone (mind you, we do need some, morphine is a needed drug in the world medicimally, just not the cash cow illegal gobs of it they are growing now) but there are far better ways of getting the job done than through the barrel of a gun.
This nation is famous for being one of peace, one of diplomacy, one of generosity and we’ve lost our way. (Even talk of being generous with grain is murky these days as its measured in inflated commodity valuations instead of tonnes.) We lost our way. Stopped being transparent. Elected a corporate lobbyist for a PM but there’s hope.
There’s an underdog, a man with a plan to restore Canada’s vision again, this time, with a plan for the environment, you know, the one that supports all life never mind human. And it doesn’t involve guns and bombs sadly to the dismay of ignorantly uninformed hawks such as this.
Leasa: Julie gave up her right to privacy the day she showed up at the swearing in hanging on to Maxime’s arm.
And when she flew to Afghanistan with him on official business.
She is not a victim. Legitimate questions have been asked. Mr. Bernier could have saved her some notoriety if he had quickly and succinctly answered the question. Was she cleared through security processes? Yes or No.?
It is Mr. Harper who continued today to mention Mr. Bernier”s girlfriend—so now who is “maligning” her?
By Judy on 05.14.08 6:24 pm
So to publically accuse her of blackmailing Bernier is OK with you? Or calling her a security risk is OK with you?
Are you suggesting that the public start examining all the girlfriends, boyfriends, or spouses of all our MPs, senators, and public servants?
Btw, Judy, are you stating that a public servant who was given secret clearance upon joining the government, vet his or her potential dates with the RCMP? What about when his or her children start bringing home dates? Should their dates be vetted by the RCMP? Or how about any future friends? Should the public servant first vet his or her friends with the RCMP?
Where do you think it should stop?
Actually Herb, Paul R. is bang on in everything he said. I’d love for you to find the time to challenge any of his points.
It would be very interesting to see what arguments that you might come up with.
But as you already indicated, it is “too late in the day to deal with your allegations in detail…”
How about tomorrow. I’d really enjoy to see the exchange. I suspect that it would be a one-sided affair. And not in your favour.
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 05.14.08 10:37 pm
In the same manner, it would be interesting to see Harry, Catherine and Janice respond when they are challenged as well, however, they rarely do, in fine CPC fashion, they spew their CPC garbage, then run….I think Herb owes nothing here, until these fine folks I mentioned stand up, why should he? Of course I realize all CPC members feel they are entitled to responses!
By Judy on 05.14.08 6:24 pm
Morning Judy…listen to what you are saying! Does, for example, Mrs. Turner give up her right to privacy and safety because she is married to a politician? Does any woman who dates a Cab. Minister or MP automatically forfeit their basic human rights? When Garth’s family privacy was invaded just a while ago…he was livid.
Judy, they could have vetted her quietly. The Opposition could have made concerns known privately. The media circus that actually took place was wrong and very much unnecessary. Was no one concerned that such a public flogging could have resulted in putting her life in danger?
Also, if Max denied her simply because of political optics and is letting her go through all of this alone…he’s a jerk.
Leasa
When I entered cabinet my wife was subject to a security check, as was proper. — Garth
First, I missed the action yesterday because my internet was on the fritz until a tech support agent in India (!) managed to get me back on line late in the day. Then I sleep, and Brain lets ‘er rip. Thank you Brain, you’ve covered the bases extensively. I propose only to highlight a few facts that some people find it politically expedient to ignore.
Paul R.,
You hate the Liberal Party because they “treated us very shitty in the past (especially during the Chrétien years). From pay freezes and budget cuts of 25%, canceled expensive helicopter contracts, or buying crappy subs …” For starters, it was not the Liberal Party, it was the Government of Canada, and it was responsible for the welfare of the whole country, not just the military part of the population. Yes, there was a pay freeze – for the whole darn public service, for about five years, with something like 50,000 public servants being cut because the blessed country was broke.
The defence budget was cut by 25% indeed, but let you in on a little secret: one quarter of our defence budget was used to pay for Canadian Forces Europe in all its capabilities and glory. That CFE was disbanded in 1993, so saving that part of the defence budget made sense. Besides, the Soviet threat and “high-intensity battlefield” we had hung all military requirements on, had disappeared.
Yes, Chretien cancelled a very expensive helicopter contract, but not because he hated pilots, but because there was no money (and he may have had suspicions about the Conservative selection process.) And we did buy “crappy subs”, but who specified those subs for purchase? (Hint: not the Government; try the Navy.)
I’d be quite happy to discuss details, but here is a link that contains two charts you should look at, http://www.ipb.org/Canada’s%20Alarming%20Rise%20in%20Military%20Spending.pdf. I know it’s a Polaris report, but just ignore the text and look at Chart 1 on page 4, “Canadian Military Spending (1980-81 to 2009-10)”. Good Lord, it was a Conservative Government that initiated the “decade of darkness”! Then have a look at Chart 2 on page 7 – “Changes on U.S. & Canadian Military Spending (1945-2005)”. What an amazing coincidence, but the fact to hoist in is that the Liberal Party of Canada that allegedly slaughtered the CF were not in government in the USA, where the same decline in military spending occurred. There were and are other factors at play, Paul.
Any government is faced with competing requirements for its attention and funds, and its job is to determine the priorities, and act and assign funds based on them. If Defence was low on the totem pole, it was because there was no palpable military threat, and keeping the CF fat, dumb and happy paled in comparison with other national requirements.
Paul’s posts, and Ed the Hun’s exuberance, do point out a military and political problem. Having seen some light after the “decade of darkness”, the CF have become converts to a sort of “Cargo Cult”, looking to the Conservative Government for great material things. The political fact is that our military considers the Harper Government to be a protected species. We do need an election to get rid of this Government for reasons discussed at length right here – and to remind the CF of the facts of life and get them back under control.
Leasa: Anyone in public life knows that nothing is done “discreetly”.
I can’t believe you agree with the Cons that it is no one’s business who accompanies our Ministers on official business–especially to sensitive war zones like Afghanistan.
As I stated a simple “yes or no” to the first question would have stymied this debate from the get go.
And why does Mr. Harper continue to mention Mr. Bernier’s “girlfriend” everytime he rises in the House?
Yes, Catherine , I believe those who accompany M.P.’s on official government business and are privy to official government dealings should be vetted by the RCMP.
The Cons are so paranoid about their own Party security but don’t seem to give a damn about national security.
Their priorities are misplaced.
Sorry, the link to the Polaris report got mangled in posting: http://www.ipb.org/Canada’s%20Alarming%20Rise%20in%20Military%20Spending.pdf
There also is an earlier study with more detail available at http://www.ploughshares.ca/libraries/WorkingPapers/wp031.pdf
Why do we have to go to “peacenik” sites to get such information presented in comprehensible form?
150k can buy a condo for an afghan family … but it could also buy one for a CF family. Some CF members apparently think that everything is always the Liberals’ and doubters’ fault, but there would be no such issue in the first place if Canada had stuck to its values of promoting peace and development, by taking a whole different approach to dealing with the Taliban. Since when did attacking a seemingly endless “supply” of volunteer Tablian soldiers ever amount to everything except a case of perpetual war? That’s like treating the pain of a broken leg by singing a soothing song: it looks (and sounds good) but the problem is still there and must be fixed. Kandahar should start growing wheat and sell it to the coalition instead of filling up Osama’s pockets with opium money.
When I entered cabinet my wife was subject to a security check, as was proper. — Garth
I’ll give ya that one. However, if they had found an earlier indiscretion in her life and ran to the press with it instead of quietly looking into it…how would you have felt then? She wouldn’t have been able to live peacefully in Canada without the ‘past’ haunting her. Do you think it was fair Garth? What did this woman do exactly that warranted such an ‘outing’??
I’m not even talking politics here. I’m talking about an innocent CND citizen’s right to live in peace. I’m not saying that she shouldn’t have been investigated or any such thing…but why involve the public? Unless, it was for political points. Pretty sad.
Leasa
By Judy on 05.14.08 6:24 pm
With due respect, Judy, there is quiet vetting, then there is taking away a citizen’s right to privacy and to live in peace in our country. There was no reason for her life to be opened up for public fodder. Leasa
Helicopter links:
FYI
http://ensign.ftlcomm.com/editorials/LTE/robinson_CTF/fiasco/fiasco.html
http://www.canadait.com/cfm/index.cfm?It=106&Id=22239&Se=2&Lo=443
http://www.mapleleafweb.com/political-cartoons/liberal-tax-cuts-and-underfunded-military
My “Jackass” opinions are my own. Despite Afghanistan, things are much better today than the 1990’s.
Like most of you, I hold my nose in the voting booth. The Conservatives were not voted in. The Liberals were voted out. Canadians choose the lesser of the evils. Thats why I prefer non-partisan style polititions. What we have now is all costs, priority of the party comes before priority of Canadians. You Liberals really don’t like not being in power.
By Bill-Muskoka on 05.14.08 9:37 pm
“Hence the saying ‘What is the difference between a Brown Noser and a Kiss Ass? Depth perception!’”
—-
That was truly awful – but really funny.
Now, how am I going to get that image out of my head?
Where do you think it should stop?
By Catherine on 05.15.08 3:57 am,
This is the wrong question. You should be asking: why those who have access to the most sensitive information in this country are operating under such a low standards? The are much lower standards than any other government official who deals with sensitive information. Why are their families considered to be less of a security risk than other Canadian families?
Why do you refuse to answer that question?
I’m not even talking politics here. I’m talking about an innocent CND citizen’s right to live in peace. I’m not saying that she shouldn’t have been investigated or any such thing…but why involve the public? Unless, it was for political points. Pretty sad.
Leasa
By Leasa on 05.15.08 11:53 am
Would you say it compares with the PM’s attempted smear on Bains or his outright lies about the husbands of Robitaille & Jennings?
With due respect, Judy, there is quiet vetting, then there is taking away a citizen’s right to privacy and to live in peace in our country. There was no reason for her life to be opened up for public fodder. Leasa
By Leasa on 05.15.08 11:56 am
Once you associate with a public figure and appear with him in public in association with his position then you forego a large amount of privacy. She made the choice of becoming a public figure and took the risk. When people make these kinds of choices they open themselves to public scrutiny.
Bernier took the same risk by associating himself with someone with a questionable background if he knew about her past, or by associating himself with someone he knew little about by designating her publicly as his spouse.
People in positions of authority should have to meet at least the same standards as those they expect their subordinates to meet. If they want public respect then they should be expected to respect their position.
It is the lack of understanding of these principles that separate the new conservative from the true conservative.
Paul R.,
welcome to the non-partisan element of garth.ca. You sure didn’t sound like a prospective member in your comments.
Your first link, to Walter Robinson, contains the great truth that overshadowed all military matters in the ’90s: “In fairness, Canada did not have the fiscal capacity in 1993 to buy 43 helicopters at a price tag of $5.8 billion.” Of course there was and is an operational requirement for various helicopters, it’s just a question of what you cut to get them.
Your second link, to the Maritime helicopter contract, is good corporate boilerplate. What gives me pause, is that the Robert Fischer speaking as VP Business Development and Government Relations of General Dynamics Canada, is LGen (ret’d) Robert Fischer, who was ADM (Mat) in DND. He is only one of a clutch of former generals selling things to the CF. Nothing like a bit of incest for that aura of objectivity in defence requirements and procurement.
I could improve on your third link, the Liberal tax-cuts cartoon, by digging into the three-ring binder of DND cartoons I gathered in my years at NDHQ in the late ’80s. I have some great ones about DND budgets and the Conservative Government of the day.
Yes, “things are much better today than the 1990’s.” Even, and especially, financially – for the time being.
The Liberals certainly do not like not being in power – and the Conservatives do not anticipate that experience with any greater relish. So hold your nose (as I did when I voted CPC in 2006) and vote for or against the government in power, but don’t blame one party for all the bad things that happened to the CF.
Herb,
Well I am impressed that you responded to Paul. Now, given my tight schedule I will pick apart your positions tomorrow (can’t this evening). I too lived through the decade of darkness, and it was truly dark.
Until tomorrow,
By C. B. Innes on 05.15.08 4:39 pm
I can see your view of this, however, I always felt that the families, spouses etc. were off limits. The only time I have ever commented about Mr. Dion’s wife, for example, is when she gave those extensive interviews, then I only commented on the content of the print. (she said some incredibly dumb things)
Do we really have a right to know who politician’s spouses slept with in the past?
It still does not sit well with me. I do think (although I don’t know her) that she certainly didn’t expect, nor should she have that she would be splashed all over every t.v. screen and every newspaper for having relations a decade ago.
If this is the way it is…when will we see the list of names of other politician’s spouses and former their lovers?
Leasa
It still does not sit well with me. I do think (although I don’t know her) that she certainly didn’t expect, nor should she have that she would be splashed all over every t.v. screen and every newspaper for having relations a decade ago.
If this is the way it is…when will we see the list of names of other politician’s spouses and former their lovers?
Leasa
By Leasa on 05.15.08 6:50 pm
How do you know that she did not attach herself to Bernier for just that reason?
There are people who target prominent individuals because they know that they can in some way assist their careers by providing special access to others. If these individuals are given free reign to do this without any restrictions then we may end up with an even more corrupt system.
This case highlights how easy it would be for criminals to successfully worm their way into the highest circles of power in the country.
Stockwell Day was quite adamant that the same regulations that apply to members of the RCMP, CSIS, and other even low level public servants should not apply to cabinet ministers.
My family and in-laws, including brothers and sisters, had to undergo regular security checks because a member of our family held security clearance. We understood that was the price we had to pay for our relatives’ position. I find Stockwell Day’s and Stephan Harper’s attitude offensive when they say that their families should never have to undergo the same level of scrutiny as we did.
By PaulR on 05.15.08 11:57 am
Thanks for the links, and glad to see you are your own man.
http://ensign.ftlcomm.com/editorials/LTE/robinson_CTF/fiasco/fiasco.html
The first heli link forgot one little thing, R Paul… just 15 years of interest on 5.8 billion. What would that contract have cost us with interest if honored? It would be in the teens in terms of billions as it would have been honored on borrowed money. There was no way this contract could have been honored in 93′ and the writer with an axe to grind acknowledged it. The 500 million in costs to cancel the contract, he blames the Liberals for anyways, even though the writer of the piece admits the government couldn’t afford this contract in 93′. Wheres the logic in this? How can this writer not acknowledge the $500 million cancellation fee as a bungled contract detail by the previous govy to begin with? How can this writer not miss as well, the interest on 5.8 billion over 15 years? He’s too busy hating Liberals with rabid partisan bias, lamenting the 41 heli’s he wanted from Lockheed Martin, thats how.
Interesting second link. With regards to the second link, if I was counting beans, I’d go for the 1.8 billion spent on heli’s manufactured and designed in Canada. The job spinoff and tax revenue stays at home, its a no brainer. Too bad we had the U.S. puppet plant NCC corp lobbyist Harper get elected. Harper killed the deal because the contract didn’t benefit his Republican friends which in this case, is what, one of the top two or three gun manufacturers in the world and here we are, still without heli’s.
R Paul, Ed, we all suffered through the 90’s, thats the point. It wasn’t just the military… it was everyone, rich, poor, middle class, working class, miners, farmers, oil workers, soldiers, factory workers, the works. What else was there to expect when a nation of 30 million runs up 330 billion in debt over 10 years with not all that much to show for it, there’s going to be some pain. I appreciate the want to participate in an open debate and exchange views, info and all the rest, I really do. And if I got a little carried away, its probably because you’re in the military, you can take it (and I was born with Leo in Mars, not a friendly sign in such a place) and I put a 1000 k on some wheels yesterday, was buzzing on coffee, friggin’ hate this war and don’t have much tolerance in repeating the same things over and over. If I went over the top, apologies.
Nevertheless, don’t think for one moment that today’s prosperity (party) and yesterday’s poverty (hangover) and govy cutback pains weren’t shared. Everyone felt it and the sad truth is, it can happen again with a government that doesn’t have the public interest in mind. I’ve never witnessed detox that didn’t hurt… but its getting old blaming the hurt on the detox instead of the ones who put the poison in the system to begin with.
Brain,
good, sympathetic comment. I look forward to Ed picking “my” position apart to-day.
How do you know that she did not attach herself to Bernier for just that reason? ~ C.B.
I don’t know. However, my point is that she could have been quietly vetted and the RCMP could have quietly investigated. Do the RCMP make every personal investigation of this nature so public. All I’m saying is the security issues could have been addressed without the public flogging. Her life could very well be in tatters now. Still doesn’t smell right to me.
Leasa
By Leasa on 05.16.08 6:51 am,
The government claims that checks were not done and that it should not be done.
If this had happened to a Liberal foreign affairs minister would you have been as forgiving? I doubt it. I remember a whole series of comments about Belinda Stronach’s personal life.
I find the Conservative hyprocrisy amazing over this issue but I have to admit that they have done a good job of flip-flopping on their priorities by suddenly placing privacy over security (when it comes to their own behaviour at least).
That is the problem with extreme partisanship: it makes people hypocrits because they are forced to defend double standards.
When a person moves from being a partisan to a non-partisan there is a huge load lifted from ones shoulders because they no longer feel obliged to defend double standards. The new Conservative Party has rejected all of the things that drew me to the old PC Party and released me from any partisan ties. In particular, they replaced all commitment to community and replaced it with self-interested individualism and that is something I totally reject. With that kind of ideology you are bound to get double-standards.
Dear Mr. Turner:
I’m a Halton constituent, and I wonder if it might be possible that there is a problem with your blog software. I’ve been posting responses to your comments about me, and they appear on your blog, but then they disappear. It’s as if someone is deleting them. Do you know why this is happening?
In any case, I’ll re-post here, the comments that somehow disappeared. And I’ll copy it for future reference, in case this should continue to be a problem for you.
Yours truly,
Cam Battley
**************
Hi, Mr. Turner:
I posted a comment to your blog last night at 11:14, responding to your mention of my name in your article.
There must have been some kind of technical foul-up (?), because my comment is gone now. So I’m reposting it for you here.
Yours Truly,
Cam Battley
************
Hi, Mr. Turner:
I’m the Halton resident who wrote the letter to the Milton Canadian Champion, calling for you to apologize to our troops.
Did you just accuse me of “smearing” you? I don’t think the people of this riding would consider my repeating your own awful words, and condemning those words, as “smearing”.
The reason I sent that letter to the Champion is that I was mad. I felt that you had finally gone beyond just promoting yourself and seeking constant attention… to saying something untrue and indecent, in an offhand manner, to try to score some political points.
Canadian troops do not set out to destroy villages. Period. To claim that they do so, with artillery shells of whatever price tag, is wrong. And cruel.
So who is really guilty of a “smear”? In my opinion, it is you who have smeared the young Canadians who are putting their lives on the line to help the people of Afghanistan.
You should be ashamed of these comments, Mr. Turner. And you should apologize immediately and publicly.
Yours truly,
Cam Battley
By Cam Battley on 05.13.08 11:14 pm
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By Cam Battley on 05.14.08 9:24 am
By Cam Battley on 05.13.08 11:14 pm
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By Cam Battley on 05.14.08 9:24 am
By Cam Battley on 05.16.08 12:59 pm
No one gives a rats fat ass what you think or say .
Hopefully you will be sued as the entire conversation and meeting are on the taped record .
Now beat it ‘ya stupid goof .
Did the soldiers you responded to ask how diverting funds from the military budget to, say, immigration or, more recently, youth cenres, was actually a sign of support. This wasn’t Garth Turner proposing a better way to spend funds on the military, rather this was Garth Turner proposing to remove funds from the military to buy votes somewhere else. Pretty hard to spin that to soldiers.