Journalists who’ve worked in Ottawa for years confirm what I’ve also seen – this Parliament is a mess. Bitter, confrontational, often paralyzed – it seems MPs just go there every day hurl insults and fight.
I thought of that the last time I looked at the Conservative Party web site and saw a big picture of Liberal leader Stephane Dion. Where his head should have been was a massive ball of lettuce. No wonder citizens don’t respect politicians, when they dis each other.
Why did the Stephen Harper gang turn Dion into Lettuceman? To illustrate an allegation made by someone that the Liberal plan to tax pollution would end up giving us $8 heads of lettuce. So, rather than attacking an idea put out for national debate, the government decided to ridicule the guy proposing it. Don’t know about you, but I expect more of the people we send down to Ottawa to run the place.
But what of the lettuce claim? It actually falls in the same category as environment minister John Baird’s ‘fact’ that the Liberal tax-shift plan would add 50 cents to the price of a litre of gas. That category is garbage. Classic fearmongering. Worse, telling bald lies and putting veggies on people’s bodies assumes voters have the intelligence of garden tools.
So what is Dion proposing?
It’s called tax shifting and, simply put, it means moving a bunch of the national tax burden from families and workers and onto the shoulders of industry and polluters. Companies that pump out crap into the environment, specifically those gases that cause global warming, would have to pay for doing so – or stop doing it. The money they pay would fund tax cuts, bringing down income tax and also corporate taxes to spur creation of more jobs.
Under the plan, every taxpayer would pay less. Seniors, low-income people, farmers, country dwellers and people in the north would get additional breaks, since they need them.
The tax-shift plan is about more than cutting your taxes, though. Since Dion wants to put a price on pollution, a major goal is clearly to reduce it. Suddenly companies that clean up their act would be better off financially. Those that don’t, or can’t, pay more.
Would those polluters – oil producers, hydro generating stations, smelters, mills, manufacturers – pass on this new tax burden to consumers in the form of higher prices? After all, this is the foundation of the Conservative attack on the idea. (By the way, Mr. Harper’s government has yet to force any companies to reduce their polluting emissions.)
Well, that’s what the shift in taxes is all about. As the cost of home heating oil, for example, rises gradually over four years, so would family after-tax income thanks to the Dion tax cuts. More importantly, if you made your house more energy efficient, and burned less oil, then you’d be better off financially – since your income tax rate would have been cut permanently. As for gasoline, the Liberal leader has been categoric – no hike in gas taxes since there is already a hefty federal excise tax collected from every litre sold.
So, that’s the plan. Shift taxes from what you earn to what you burn. Tax polluters more and taxpayers less. Give us incentive to cut consumption. Save the planet.
Let’s talk about this, and decide together if it’s the right approach. Let’s demand a debate, not a fight.
Or would you rather see me as, say, a giant raddish?
233 comments ↓
Very nice, but what will Dion do about his Caucus wanting to pull the plug? Stare them down, or capitulate to their demands?
im gonna go with radish
Hey, I like lettuce. Lettuce is good for you – folic acid that we need, makes great salad and adds to a sandwich.
Boy, if the CPC don’t look desparate here or what….unbelievably immature.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m tired of being treated like I’m mentally challenged by Harper’s bobbleheads.
Harper – you’re not talking to your son Ben or your daughter Rachael here – you are talking to “adult” voters – get with the program. You are dealing in the “adult” world.
Holy CRAP, I mention the possibility of $8.00 lettuce and look what happens!
http://amahenry.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/vegetable.jpg
Well it certainly is a better approach than nothing, I think it is imperative to have a focused program on alternative energy. I also think seniors are going to face some very difficult times ahead as those on fixed incomes are being hit by gas, food, municipal taxes etc. way beyond the what the government is indexing pensions. The indexing for seniors based on the CPI should be based on the absolute necessities of life! Food, energy and taxation are such items.
HOW DO YOU, DION AND THE LIBERAL PARTY RESPOND TO THIS ATTACK AD CAMPAIGN?? WILL DION’S SUMMER TOUR BE THE COUNTER-ATTACK, OR WILL IT BE AN ELECTION IN JULY??
……..
The Dion Tax Trick
June 08, 2008
Multi-media marketing campaign launched in Ottawa
“At their weekly caucus meeting, the Liberals got a caution from party strategists against describing their fledgling proposal as a “tax” – a sure-fire bet to drive away voters.” Toronto Star, May 15, 2008
OTTAWA – Conservatives today launched a bilingual multi-media marketing campaign to warn taxpayers about being tricked by Stephane Dion into paying a permanent new carbon tax that will destroy jobs and drive up the cost of gas, electricity and everything else Canadians buy.
The four-pronged campaign, titled “The Dion Tax Trick”, features a mix of traditional and non-traditional media including radio commercials, audio-visual ads at gas station pumps, online viral marketing and grassroots guerrilla marketing.
“Stephane Dion has made tens of billions of dollars of non-budgeted spending promises,” said Conservative MP Jason Kenney. “He is now trying to trick Canadians into paying a permanent new tax he once vehemently opposed to raise colossal sums of revenue – it’s as simple as that.”
Sadly, Dion is attempting to sell his Tax Trick by wrapping it up in green environmental packaging and using weasel word terms such as “revenue-neutrality” and “tax-shifting
to sell the tax to Canadians. Liberal strategists have reportedly told Dion to avoid using the word “tax”.
“Canadians have seen this movie before,” said Kenney. “They’re used to politicians promising taxes that are temporary, dedicated or revenue-neutral but instead getting higher permanent taxes that feed the pool of general revenue.”
Campaign details include:
* Three English and three French 30-second radio advertisements;
* Two English 15-second fuelcast ads that will run at gas station pumps;
* A dedicated website – willyoubetricked.ca – with viral marketing devices; and
* A volunteer-based guerrilla marketing campaign that will hit numerous communities over the summer.
The campaign is being funded by voluntary donations from Conservative supporters across Canada.
http://www.conservative.ca
OK, lets debate the issue. Quite frankly I am tired of the rhetoric. I will ask a simple question – will the price of gas increase because of the Carbon Tax, and the answer that keeps coming back is that “there will be no increase in the gas tax“. But that is not what I asked now, is it?
I think we would be foolhardy to believe that gas prices would not increase. In fact, Dan Mcteague pretty much agreed with that sentiment in a recent CPAC interview. The only question is how much. Baird sez 50cents (ignore what he calls it), McTeague said it would not be significant compared to other market influences. But it will go up.
So what of people like myself that have to drive for a living. I drive on average about 1000km per week. Unless there is a change to my job load (which would mean a change to my income), that is what it is – I have little choice. It is unlikely that I am going to see a net-neutral reduction in my income tax. So your new economy is going to be on my back and on the backs of others like me.
What of the farmer who already pays thousands of dollars in gas prices. Would you not anticipate that they would have to increase their prices to compensate for their increased cost? Then there is the transportation of all of these goods into the urban centres you so proudly champion. Seems clear that everything, not just the “bad” things, are going to cost more as a result of the Carbon Tax.
But then, I don’t know the plan.
I do know that you have a LOT of competing variables, and I anxiously – I mean it, I am anxious – await for the plan to be explained. I have more than enough fears.
So, what say you? Willing to debate it now?
Is Dion going to sue Harper for his bald faced lies? If not, why not? What is the difference between the Liberal party being sued by Harper re the Cadman comments and Dion suing the Cons over their new advertising scheme? Haven’t the Libs had enough of being denigrated by the Cons?
It is bad enough That Dion won’t bring down the Cons, but to tolerate this new campaign is more then turning the other cheek.
Under the plan, every taxpayer would pay less. Seniors, low-income people, farmers, country dwellers and people in the north would get additional breaks, since they need them.
posted by Garth Turner on 06.08.08 @ 9:07 am
Have you any idea how this would work?
This new plan out of desperation for Dion to hold the leadership could possibly be the most expensive that the Canadian citizen has seen yet. The massive bureaucracy that will be needed to administer this program will be anything but tax neutral, we need look no further than the pitiful mess of the gun registry to see the waste of money, and we are not one bit safer than without it. Hopefully we don’t need to get to stressed over this because the big guns in the Liberal party are pushing for an election, and shortly thereafter there will be a new leader. We already know at least two of the contenders and they sit very close to Dion in question period.
I think the Conservatives have just dropped a finned thingy on Dion and the Liberal party.
http://www.willyoubetricked.ca/
Yeah – the front page of the Toronto Sun and the “Dion’s Tax on Everything.”
What bothers me is the assault on my intelligence. What’s funny is that the Conservative supports will lap this up.
I agree with you Garth – let’s DISCUSS this. Let’s hear the details – debate them, hear alternatives.
I am tired of constant bashing. If there are any Conservative ad-men reading this (which I am sure there are) I want to hear your alternatives. Right now, the alternative is nothing. That one sucks. I’d rather try something different.
So – here’s a question for you Garth – Am I understanding your post correctly when you say these costs are directed at Industry only? In otherwords, no “consumption” like tax at the tills?
So what is Dion proposing?
It’s called tax shifting and, simply put, it means moving a bunch of the national tax burden from families and workers and onto the shoulders of industry and polluters. Companies that pump out crap into the environment, specifically those gases that cause global warming, would have to pay for doing so – or stop doing it. The money they pay would fund tax cuts, bringing down income tax and also corporate taxes to spur creation of more jobs.
…
Would those polluters – oil producers, hydro generating stations, smelters, mills, manufacturers – pass on this new tax burden to consumers in the form of higher prices? After all, this is the foundation of the Conservative attack on the idea. (By the way, Mr. Harper’s government has yet to force any companies to reduce their polluting emissions.)
…
Let’s talk about this, and decide together if it’s the right approach. Let’s demand a debate, not a fight.
Or would you rather see me as, say, a giant raddish?
posted by Garth Turner on 06.08.08 @ 9:07 am
Okay, let’s debate, shall we?
First, when Oddawahahaha stops veiwing us as Turnips, maybe we can get moving forward.
Here are my points on any form of carbon tax.
1. It is a TAX!
2. All tax increases are ALWAYS passed onto the consumers
3. CEO’s, like GM’s, get outrageous bonuses like his recent $15 MILLION dollar package, while everyone else suck hind teat, or are kicked out into the street with no support whatsoever.
4. Cash flow means actually dealing with the reality of how much money is avaialble, not MIGHT BE, versus current liabilities. We are already supporting the government, mortgage holders and landlords (akak real Estate industry), food industry, oil companies, auto makers, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, service companies, utilities, and if after those necessities are met, our selves and families. THERE AIN’T NO MORE TO GIVE!
5. Pollution will be reduced when there are inescapable laws, such as the Clean Air Act here in Ontario (You don’t pass, you don’t operate that vehicle legally, which of course, applies to the average schmuck, not some GHG spewing industry), are written, enforced, and the polluters are sent to prison with forfeiture of all their personal assets…and NOT UNTIL!
6. The government is a MAJOR PART of the PROBLEM, and they already grab a huge tax bite from every litre, not to mention liquor…they see it all as ‘liquid assets’ for their kitty. REDUCE TAXES on BOTH!
7. Tax shifting is nothing more than smoke and mirrors BULLSHIT!
8. We need to stop protecting American automakers by allowing the best technologies to be either imported or manufactured here in Canada. This BS of ‘Oh, Japan won’t let GM, Ford, and Chrysler sell there POS gas hog vehicles there is grounds to blockade their’s here!’ Pure stupidity! We are trying to solve a problem and all the kiss ass politicians do is worry about protecting their friends.
9. Get rid of all the other idiotic laws you have written that allow these sociopathic bastards to transfer their taxable revenue offshore. Again government is an ENABLER, not the SOLUTION. You have prostituted yourselves through corporate tax laws worse that a Gaslight District whore.
10. Stop the rape of Canadians by writing tax laws for the people, not the damn mega-corporations. the recent multi-BILLION profits of the oil and insurance industries are nothing short of criminal from a sociological point.
I don’t accept it as meaningful action, and view any such proposal as out-of-date thinking by out-of-date politicians, who have far exceeded their Expiry Date!
Sorry Garth, but you can tell Stephane Dion my views and please do so. He will NEVER sell this BULLSHIT PLAN to moi! I have lived far too long to be suckered by rhetoric and another ‘tax based fixit plan’.
There, I cannot be more straightforward than that. Now CALL THE ELECTION. I think Dion has spent too much time in academia and thinks politics works in the real world like it does there. IT DOESN’T!!!!!! Here we expect RESULTS, not suck assing for tenure!
As to your own Veggie species…that is your choice. LOL I, for one, refuse to be a fungi, aka, MUSHROOM!
I got it!
The CONS are scared because M. Dion keeps saying “Lettuce talk about it and work together.”
My Mom is a “carrot head”.
But, Garth, you are not communist enough to be a “pinko raddish”. Or, maybe due to the exit of some of your creative writing perhaps “horse raddish”?
I better “beet it”… This hangover from yesterday’s wedding must be turning me into a potato head!
I do wonder, though, if the CPC site is only frequented by the indoctrinated (turnips?). I sure doubt that anyone over 15 years old would find this quite sad…
Do the Cons have no other picture of Dion? I think they are overworking this one.
The Lettuce head is a very creative stategy; however, why do the cons want to lower themselves to such disgraceful, unacceptable and bitter campaigning?
My Goodness, this is disgusting and so are they.
Journalists who’ve worked in Ottawa for years confirm what I’ve also seen – this Parliament is a mess. Bitter, confrontational, often paralyzed – it seems MPs just go there every day hurl insults and fight.
No argument on those cvomments. In fact, I would fire all of them permanently, with a few exceptions, Garth being Numero Uno!
Anywhere else in the real world would have given them their pink slips over a year ago. But, we can’t without an election being called!
WORTHLESS is what this Parliament is and will continue to be until the people get their right to choose! We have Flim-Flammed and lied too, then denied the right to correct the situation.
Right now the Liberals hold the bag for that because they have failed to be the Official Opposition! Simple as that Garth!
As I was pondering the various current dilemmas, I remembered something from my youth.
“Sam Sam, pick op thy musket Sam.”
Sam Small
By Stanley Holloway
It occurred on the evening before Waterloo,
And t’troops were lined up on parade,
The Sergeant inspecting ‘em he were a terror,
Of whom every man was afraid
All excepting one man who was in the front rank,
A man by the name of Sam Small,
And ‘im and the Sergeant were both ‘daggers drawn’,
They thought nowt of each other at all
As Sergeant walked past he were swinging his arms,
And he happened to brush against Sam,
And knocking his musket clean out of his hand,
It fell to the ground with a slam
‘Pick it up’ said t’Sergeant, abrupt like but cool,
But Sam with a shake of his head,
‘Seeing as tha’ knocked it out of me hand,
P’raps tha’ll pick the thing up instead.
‘Sam, Sam, pick up thy musket,’
The Sergeant exclaimed with a roar,
Sam said ‘Tha knocked it down, reet! then tha’ll pick it up,
Or it’ll stay where it is on’t floor
The sound of high words very soon reached the ears,
Of an Officer, Lieutenant Bird,
Who says to the Sergeant, ‘Now what’s all this ere?’
And the Sergeant told what had occurred.
‘Sam, Sam, pick up thy musket’
Lieutenant exclaimed with some heat,
Sam said, ‘He knocked it down reet! Then he’ll pick it up,
Or it stays where it is, at me feet
It caused quite a stir when the Captain arrived,
To find out the cause of the trouble,
And every man there, all except Sam,
Was full of excitement and bubble
‘Sam, Sam, pick up thy musket’,
Said Captain for strictness renowned,
Sam said ‘He knocked it doon, Reet! so he’ll pick it up,
Or it stays where it is on’t ground
The same thing occurred when the Major and Colonel,
Both tried to get Sam to see sense,
But when Old Duke o’ Wellington came into view,
Well the excitement was really quite tense
Up rode the Duke on a loverly white ‘orse,
To find out the cause of the bother,
He looked at the musket and then at Old Sam,
And he talked to Old Sam like a brother
‘Sam, Sam, pick up thy musket’
The Duke said as quiet as could be,
‘Sam, Sam pick up thi musket,
Coom on lad, just to please me
‘Alright Duke,’ said Old Sam, ‘just for thee I’ll oblige,
And to show thee I meant no offence’,
So Sam picked it up, ‘Gradely, lad’ said the Duke,
‘Right-o boys… let battle commence.’
*********
You might like to show this to Dion. It deals with Solidarity.
“Sam Sam, pick op thy musket Sam.”
Correction: Should have read “We have been Flim-Flammed and lied too, then denied the right to correct the situation.”
The Flatulence Tax ” Those that don’t stop or can’t, pay more”. No, this is no joke.
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=224920
Looks to me like the Speaker of the House of Commons needs replacing with someone able to control the tenor of debate!
True, not much he can do about advertisements outside of the House of Commons, but at least Canadians wouldn’t be forced to watch the Kindergarten shenanigans the Conservatives turned Parliament into.
Garth … you know what they say in politics … if you are forced into explaining yourself, you’re losing .. and Dion has a lot of explaining to do …!!!!
I guess you’re rather busy at the Priorities & Planning Committee this weekend and can’t tend to the weblog. We understand ….
“It’s called tax shifting and, simply put, it means moving a bunch of the national tax burden from families and workers and onto the shoulders of industry and polluters. ”
This statement may be half true. However, Stephane Dion and you are not forthcoming with the rest of the story. What is a corporation? It’s a legal entity – it does not absorb additional costs. The corporations pass along costs to the consumers or looks for countries, which can provide cheaper labour costs and less restrictive business environments.
Now, who will pay for this extra Carbon Tax which has been put onto the shoulders of industry and polluters? You, me, and all the Canadian consumers. And I would suspect also cost us a loss of jobs. Why jobs? Because industry will move to cheaper countries (such as China and India).
Unless Stephane Dion nationalizes every Canadian industry – Stephane Dion will not be able to stem the flow of jobs to China. So Stephane Dion owes us a major explanation and the whole truth on his Carbon Tax scam….oops…. plan.
Oh btw, this Carbon Tax sound just like a sin tax. Didn’t the churches of yesteryear scare people into contributing to their churches so that the parishners can obsolve themselves of their “sins”?
The Dion attack ads have done NOTHING to get them anywhere near a majority and actually may have hurt them with many voters.
One of the big questions people should be asking themselves when filling up is why hasn’t the GST on gas over 85 cents a liter been slashed as Harper said he would do.
In opposition, the Conservatives made repeated promises to remove the GST tax-on-tax bite and pledged to remove the GST completely when gasoline prices exceeded 85 cents per litre
. In the summer of 2005, Mr. Harper was quoted saying that gas taxes could be reduced by as much as 5 cents a litre.
Three Conservative budgets have failed to lower gas taxes although roadway spending is substantially increased.
Then they try and get around it with the big 2% GST cut.
In Alberta the tar sands are using 4 barrels of water to produce one barrel of oil.Much of which is going to the US who are also questioning the quality of it.
And as far as Canada goes we could be freezing to death but that oil still goes to the US.Signed,sealed and delivered.
http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/435700
John Baird as Environment Minister has been a disaster,minus the great hairdo.
And as Treasury Board President was responsible for the NOT so accountable Accountability Act.
I know I’ll vote ABC next time.But the Liberals better get their house in order.
I predict the Anti-Carbon ads will have little impact and in fact may make more people interested in Dion’s Carbon Tax Plan.
To funny..
http://www.Willyoubetricked.ca
Garth, we will see lettuce at $8. a head, but it has nothing to do with any political plan in the future. We will have $8. heads of lettuce when these large conglomerates get their GD monopoly and control of our markets. That is the fact. It is also a fact that they will keep the poor, poor as they have done with free trade over the last two decades to ensure a good source of cheap labour. Canadian federal government do not want agriculture. This is a result of the lobby effort of a few huge conglomerates. Right now, these same mega corps are SUCCESSFULLY lobbying our government to make the ‘product of Canada’ label VOLUNTARY.
I am a campaign trustee for the CPC. I have worked very hard to help the CPC win the last election. As of today, I am very sad to say…I am done. I still will not support the liberals and I will spoil my ballot in the next election. I will still support my provincial Conservatives, but as for Federal…I’m really, really done. You all have no idea how hard that is for me to say.
Today, I learned we signed a trade deal with Columbia and agricultural products was once again the leverage for this deal. Columbia? Even the U.S. will not sign with this country due to all the corruption and human cruelty and abuses. What is behind this? WTF???
As a farmer in Canada I am so completely pissed off I can’t stand it. I am so disgusted and upset, you have no idea. A country where I would be kidnapped and tortured for ransom we sign a deal with? WTF…WTF….WTF!!!!
Another GD nail in the coffins of Canadian farmers. WTF!
I’m done. Don’t call me.
Leasa
When Stephen Harper pulls stuff like this, you can see that somewhere in his past he had sand kicked in his face, repeatedly.
There’s something very WRONG about Stephen Harper; something damaged him psychologically, perhaps even morally.
It’s time for people to find out what that something was, before Stephen Harper really damages someone in his blind hatred.
It is a curious thing that very little is known about Stephen Harper’s youth. He had no friends, no-one who can speak about his youth. He may not have any friends now, simply business acquaintances. A good researcher and journalist would discover what Stephen Harper is hiding back in his past, before he moved to Calgary and reinvented himself.
I suggest an in-depth investigation into Stephen Harper in the interests of stopping him from damaging anyone else in his obvious sickness.
CARBON-FUNDED LOWER INCOME TAX
A carbon-funded tax break is a very positive and smart initiative for Canadians.
I commend everyone involved in creating this plan.
Yes, I agree that the Conservative website is absolutely childish.
As for the tax-shift plan, we’re going to need a lot more detailed information before we can comment. I don’t think you have stated anything that we didn’t already know in your post. Shift the tax burden to polluters and give a income tax break to everyone else. When will you give us more?
I’m not a liberal fan but, I’m interested in any ideas to could help to environment and help cut my taxes.
Garth:
In part you have yourselves to blame. You didn’t position this issue properly in the first place. You called it a carbon tax. Now you’re calling it a tax shift/
Too bad your party’s political instincts are better honed, for you should have called it a tax shift in the first place.
Keep in mind you’re up against the grand master of political misconceptions….Harper is the guy who called wiping out $35 billion in retirement savings as a “Tax Fairness Plan”. This was after he was elected on a platform of “not raiding seniors net eggs”.
Who actually is the Liberal’s communications strategist? The now anointed lettuce man, or somebody else?
Politics 101: Your shouldn’t let the opposition frame your platform issues for you, or let opposition parties get away with fraud….as in Flaherty’s claims that income trusts cause tax leakage.
Go ahead, don’t be afaid, call it what it is FRAUD. It will help define Harper. If you’re lucky he’ll sue you:
http://caiti-online-media.blogspot.com/2007/04/to-finance-minister-flaherty-your-tax.html
Wait a second…
Maybe the CONS are finally getting to like M. Dion!
That is not a lettuce… perhaps it is cabbage.
You see, an endearing phrase often used affectionately here in Quebec is “mon petit chou”, or “my little cabbage”. Typically used by mothers or within families though..
“Mon petit chou Stephane”…THAT’s IT!!!
I guess ads like this make perfect sense to a party and its supporters whose only policies are to give our resources away for free, put everyone in jail and tax cuts for business is all you need to make an economy work.
This is an easy lie to tell because unless they buy their food at farmers markets, Canadians have no idea what the real cost of lettuce is. Having been a market gardener while going to college ahem years ago I suspect that farmers would have to charge at least 3 dollars a lettuce to break even today. For any green plan to work it would have to target transportation and bring it up to the point where bringing in lettuce from outside costs at least that much. No doubt the Cons. will use any increase over the superstore price to atack the Liberals.
Sticker shock is funny sometimes. When we first moved to Whitehose I was amazed that broccolli was 60 cents when I was paying 50 cents in Ontario at the time, not the huge difference I was told. When the casheer rung up $1.49 I insisted she was wrong. The person in front of me started laughing and said “you are new here aren’t you?” this happened to be the first time I met that incredable lady Audrey McGlaughlin.(sp.)?
That was when I found out that we pay for the 1000km. trip up here as well as the empty truck going 1000km. back outside so most foods were charged by the kg. not individually!
About 5 years ago Superstore and Walmart hit town and everyone cheered because food prices dropped in half in some cases but overall by a third. Everyone was saying “finally we are not getting ripped off”, Until we looked at where this food came from. Almost none of it is grown in Canada!!! The price makes sense when you consider that we are only a thousand kms. from the port of entry in Vancouver and I understad that the maritimes prices are often higher than here because now they are at the end of the transportation line.
We have to look seriously at where we came from and were we are going if we want to avoid a depression again. Go back to 8:49pm in yesterdays posts and spend 75 minutes watching the video Charles Oxley recommends. It explains very clearly why our present way of living is ending now. There is no choice, either we look to the past to see what worked and look to new technology and ideas to move forward or we will become the new third world!!!! We have to abandon the idea of cheap food and cheap things and go back to the days when quality locally produced goods sold in local stores at the going rate of wages once again becomes the norm. Our futures are planned for us unless we go back to the village way of life that we had before the big suberbs and big box stores and shipping everything all over the world to make a few people rich and customers think they are getting “bargains” we are basically doomed.
Unless Stephane Dion nationalizes every Canadian industry – Stephane Dion will not be able to stem the flow of jobs to China. So Stephane Dion owes us a major explanation and the whole truth on his Carbon Tax scam….oops…. plan.
By Catherine on 06.08.08 10:46 am
Good Catherine, you stick with the CPC and their plan to do nothing….that works for you I am sure!
There was some good news from Calgary last night. Of the two people I heard political talk from, only one was stuck back two centuries ago. I won’t tell you what she said that makes me say that.. but ‘two centuries’ sums it up in the kindest way. They don’t know.. that their Neo-Conservatives have already lassoed and roped ‘em
By Catherine on 06.08.08 10:46 am
Oh BTW Catherine…it is all about you, right B o B…
I guess you’re rather busy at the Priorities & Planning Committee this weekend and can’t tend to the weblog. We understand ….
By Harry S on 06.08.08 10:39 am
…you know, this is getting creepy. Harry’s constant obsession with Garth and Dion – has he got a secret man-crush? Weird.
Leasa – we HAVE TO buy “Canadian” from our “Canadian” farmers and the message has to get out.
I live in rural Ontario – we buy ONLY “Canadian” produce during the growing season and we buy Canadian produce over others whenever we can in the other seasons.
It’s time to support OUR farmers folks (even if a lot of them support the CPC that want to sell them down the river)
Under the Harper do-nothing plans Canadians have seen prices rise disproportionately to their incomes.
Every day that the Cons are in power we see increased costs for everything.
There plans have only hurt Canadian families and their bottom lines.
Garth … you know these CPC attack ads will resonate with Canadian voters, particularly those who commute into Toronto.
Where are the Liberal counter-attack ads .. where is Dion .. why not an election now …???!!!!
As a member of the Liberal “Priorities and Planning Committee”, I hope you are proposing a political strategy that will be worthy of the Liberal party.
Thinking about this again, if we go out of our way to avoid labelling the Carbon Tax as a consumption tax, then that is even worse – there will be double taxation at the gas pump.
Oil refiners will pass on the Carbon Tax to the consumer as a price increase. Since the existing gas tax is but a percentage of the price, as consumers we would not only have to absorb the Carbon tax on gas, but also the the gas tax on the carbon tax.
Or am I missing something here?
Is there any talk from M. Dion on actually reducing the gas tax?
Oh btw, this Carbon Tax sound just like a sin tax. Didn’t the churches of yesteryear scare people into contributing to their churches so that the parishners can obsolve themselves of their “sins”?
By Catherine on 06.08.08 10:47 am
If That,s the case then Harper and his gang would have to declare bankruptcy!
Excellent start . Now we need the new Energuide and a bunch of incentives to ‘Green’ up our houses and make them more energy efficient .
Bring back the one tonne challenge and expand it .
Maybe a series of interest free loans .
Maybe a cash grant for poor people .
Our electricity comes from wind power and we pay once cent more per kilowatt .
Bring back victory gardens so we can grow lettuce .
Surround your house with native plants as grass is a net drain on the environment and not efficient .
Using a lawn mower causes major pollution .
We tore up our lawn and planted 3,varieties of clover . For the bees .
It is maintainance free .
How can we comment on Dions tax shifting, climate change preventing carbon tax, when we have not seen it completly revealed? What are the Liberals waiting for? Is there something that needs to be changed, or hidden in the wording?
Dion wants to shovel manure from one pile to another and he will probably be good at it. That’s leadership? No that’s cow manure and it smells like it.
Dion, with his lettuce head, looks like a praying mantis. As they say in Church, “lettuce pray!” but prayer won’t win many seats. The Liberals will need more than a one issue choir boy if they want to defeat the CRAP party. Perhaps they don’t want to…perhaps they don’t deserve to.
Today is yesterday’s future and it is pretty darn good. Tomorrow can be even better…different obstacles…greater chalenges…different solutions. A pessimist thinks that the glass is half empty…an optimist thinks that it is half full.
The nabobs of negativity will always be with us. What we need are persons of vision…persons who can make things happen…sons and daughters who can make mother earth proud. Today is the first day of our future…we CANDO!!!
Garth,
Isn’t this the time to link a guaranteed annual income concept with your environmental policy?
According to “Question Period” today the Conservatives are teaming up with gas companies in southern Ontario in an advertising campaign against the Liberal environmental policies.
Journalists who’ve worked in Ottawa for years confirm what I’ve also seen – this Parliament is a mess. Bitter, confrontational, often paralyzed – it seems MPs just go there every day hurl insults and fight. – Garth
………………………………….
Most of the insults and attacks emanate from the opposition benches and not the government side. Listening to Dion and Ignatieff continuously smut and scandal-mongering day after day in QP .. and rooster Layton sputtering through is stud-moustache … well that demeans the HoCs and you know it …!!!
We not only need a carbon tax – we need a carbon tariff. Will Dion’s plan apply to the carbon cost of imports? I doubt it, but if it did, that’s where your $8.00 head of lettuce would come in – as it should be if it’s coming from California in January.
William Dahl is right. When garlic from China and asparagus from Peru are cheaper than local, seasonal produce there is something very seriously wrong. Putting a realistic price on the carbon emitted to ship this stuff from California or Mexico or half way around the world would help redress this imbalance and help local farmers to boot.
Imported foods should be expensive luxuries, not the mainstay of our diets. And yes, we can grow these things in our northern climate – it just takes a bit of effort and ingenuity.
Oh,yea Parliament has an award wining composting plan / strategy .
They even recycle paper towels .
Ah, the TRUTH prevails! A man I have personally met, had respect for, and is the Republican contender for President is revealed for what he truly is…sad to say, but truth is the most powerful of all things.
The wife U.S. Republican John McCain callously left behind
The tax-shift plan is about more than cutting your taxes, though. Since Dion wants to put a price on pollution, a major goal is clearly to reduce it. Suddenly companies that clean up their act would be better off financially. Those that don’t, or can’t, pay more. – Garth
Or they could decide to move production out of Canada so they can continue to polute without paying. I hope that loop-hole is closed say by adding “environmental” tariffs onto imports, including from the USA.
As for raddish, more like beet-root… especially when faced with the non-government government of PMSH and his totally moronic environment minister, who last week suggest that Alberta was the only province with clear GHG reduction goals, a pathetic 6% by 2050. Yet the oil sands are expected to increase their GHG output 18% for the next 2 years.
I laugh when Baird’s “Duffy brought me out of my shell,” comment airs for “Duffy Live!” Duff, if its true, you have a lot to answer for!
When the egg heads at CPC central can come up with a half decent environmental plan, then they can start calling Dion a cabbage head.
Until then, the biblical “splinter and plank” story comes to mind. I’m sure PMSH knows it well. There’s a 2×4 in the eye of the CPC when it comes to environmental policy!
By Leasa on 06.08.08 10:53 am,
I know that your expertise in agriculture would be welcomed by the Progressive Canadian Party. The party is interested in a national food policy for Canada and you would get the opportunity to help develop the policy.
The nabobs of negativity will always be with us. What we need are persons of vision…persons who can make things happen…sons and daughters who can make mother earth proud. Today is the first day of our future…we CANDO!!!
By Michael on 06.08.08 11:49 am
Is that a plug for the Green Party?
They are still a party…only one way to go…Independent!
This is what Dion is all excited about and is planning to implement nationally.
I am starting my new program called Sweaters for Seniors cuz they will need them this winter as even a small increase on top of what we are already enduring will be too much!
B.C. introduces carbon tax
The Lotus Land Province is the first jurisdiction in North America to have consumer-based carbon tax
By Jonathan Fowlie and Fiona Anderson, Vancouver Sun
Published: Tuesday, February 19, 2008
VICTORIA — Driving and other fuel-dependent activities are about to get more expensive as British Columbia becomes the first jurisdiction in North America to introduce a consumer-based carbon tax.
The carbon tax will apply to virtually all fossil fuels, including gasoline, diesel, natural gas, coal, propane, and home heating fuel. B.C.’s carbon tax, the provincial government claims, will be the most comprehensive in the world.
However, Finance Minister Carole Taylor vowed Tuesday that all money collected through the new tax will be returned through a package of tax cuts and credits.
Taylor said the new carbon tax will begin July 1, starting at a rate that will have drivers paying about an extra 2.4 cents per litre of gasoline at the pumps.
If you drive a Prius hybrid, the government estimates the new tax will cost you about $20 extra per year. If you have a Dodge Ram pickup truck, that number will be closer to $68 it says.
The tax will then increase each year after that until 2012, reaching a final price of about 7.2 cents per litre at the pumps.
My initial debate position is
NO MORE TAXES!
My God people !! You dont even know what the plan is, and everyone goes nuts. PATHETIC to say the least. CPC attack ads, attack nothing. They just leave a very bad taste in most mouths. How not to run a party or a country. Ultra stupid.
Well there goes my vegetable garden. Half an inch of snow on the ground and still falling. Hard to believe it was 30 degrees last week. I have seen a few flakes in the summer before but never this much. Every year it seems the weather gets stranger and stranger and I read how this sort of thing is becoming normal across the country. Don’t look now folks but food shortages will happen sooner than later.
Now where did I put that snow shovel?
From yesterday:
By Wayne on 06.07.08 11:24 pm who was trying to remember the insult “that goes ‘Madam, we have already established what you are….’.
“Would you sleep with me if I gave you a million dollars?”
“Well…yes.”
“Would you sleep with me if I gave you a dollar?”
“Certainly not! What do you think I am?”
“Madam, we’ve already established what you are. Now we’re just haggling over the price.”
Now, back to the comments…
Lettuce be aware of how climate change will be costly for Vegans and growers will not be able to Baird Fruit at reasonable costs.
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2941/bairdinbaligifvn3.gif
there should be an ad out there tomorrow with the PMs’voice on tape re cadman before it gets to court…let everyone hear what a cheat he is.
Oil refiners will pass on the Carbon Tax to the consumer as a price increase. Since the existing gas tax is but a percentage of the price, as consumers we would not only have to absorb the Carbon tax on gas, but also the the gas tax on the carbon tax.
Or am I missing something here?
Is there any talk from M. Dion on actually reducing the gas tax?
By Randy Too on 06.08.08 11:30 am
There is no doubt that the ideology on which the oil companies and the Harper government operate. There is no such thing in their world as excess profits.
In reality the oil companies could absorb a relatively high carbon. However, the operating ideology focuses on the rights of ownershipand control and not on their responsibilities to the society that gives them the right of ownership or control.
There is a concept called “good corporate citizenship.” The more powerful a corporation or a sector becomes the less need they see to be good corporate citizens. Greed becomes all consuming.
We need government to put the breaks on this kind of behaviour but we have a government whose ideology is based on the “greed is good” principle and is actually aligning itself with the oil companies not just against the opposition parties but against the best interests of Canadian society as a whole.
There is no doubt that we are in for a major conflict between the new Conservatives aligned with its oil company cronies but it is a battle that must be waged in the interests of both the environment and the economy.
Garth…will you comment on this:
A boon for outsourcers, pact rips off United States
By ALAN TONELSON
WASHINGTON – With a recession either under way or imminent, triggered by reckless over-borrowing and dismal under-production, the last thing Americans need is an outsourcers’ boondoggle like the proposed trade agreement with Colombia.
Supporters claim the deal will jumpstart U.S. exports and thus overall demand for American-made products and services. After all, backers say, previous U.S. presidents and Congresses gave Colombia duty-free access to the U.S. market years ago. This deal finally gives American producers the same opportunities in Colombia.
Yet last year, Colombia bought only 0.75 percent of all U.S. goods exports. That figure would have risen to only 3 percent even if Americans had supplied all of that nation’s foreign purchases. Why? Because the latest (2005) comparative data show that Colombia’s entire economy is only slightly larger than that of greater metropolitan area of Charlotte, N.C., and less than 1 percent the size of the entire U.S. economy.
Worse, fully 49 percent of Colombians lived below the poverty line in 2005. As of 2006, the nation’s unemployment rate was 12 percent, and under-employment stood at an astronomical 35.4 percent.
But if Colombians overall have zero potential as major consumers of American exports, what do U.S. supporters of the deal really want from Washington?
Low-wage labor supply
What they want is yet another opportunity for multinational companies to supply their overwhelmingly U.S. customers – not new foreign customers – from a penny-wage, regulation-free foreign production site rather than from the United States itself.
For the Colombia agreement doesn’t simply eliminate most Colombian tariffs over time. It also makes permanent access to the immense U.S. consuming base for any entity producing in Colombia, locally or foreign-owned, regardless of how economic circumstances may change.
In other words, the deal’s main effect is not opening a new source of foreign demand for U.S.-origin goods and services, but removing most of the risk of replacing U.S. factories and workers with export-oriented operations in Colombia.
Indeed, Alan Garcia, president of Colombia’s neighbor, Peru, spilled the beans the very day he signed his own impoverished nation’s free trade deal with the United States.
“Come and open your factories in my country so we can sell your products back to the United States,” he urged an audience of outsourcers in Washington last fall. Colombia’s nearly identical deal will produce similar results, and in the process boost America’s already gargantuan trade deficit and foreign debts
Precisely because the economic case won’t fly, proponents have turned to selling the Colombia deal through national security alarmism.
Reject the agreement, they warn, and the United States will stiff a staunch ally in a region increasingly vulnerable to the anti-American radicalism of oil-rich Venezuela’s President Hugo Chavez and his rogue-state leader buddies.
Approve the deal, supporters insist, and Washington will show Latin countries the payoffs of cooperating with the United States, and aid Colombia’s own struggles against still-powerful narco-terrorists.
Poor arguments
Yet these Cold War-era arguments are completely irrelevant today. For all his histrionics, Chavez knows he needs Americans to buy his oil, and can barely keep his mismanaged economy afloat, much less stir major trouble abroad. Most important, without superpower patrons like the former Soviet Union, even an implacably hostile Venezuela would remain a geopolitical midget.
The United States should promote Latin American prosperity and stability where practicable – to stem the flood of narcotics and illegal immigrants.
Along with the emergence of more competent, less corrupt regional leaders, trade policy can help. But first Washington must realize that Latin America’s main trade policy problem is not inadequate access to U.S. customers as such, but cutthroat competition for this market from China and other Asian producers.
Rather than enabling Asian predation by remaining open to all export comers, the United States must set strategic trade policy priorities.
Alan Tonelson is a research fellow at the U.S. Business & Industry Council in Washington, http://www.usbusiness.org
http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2008/06/08/opinion/guest/26-pact.txt
wining . Should read winning .
:…could absorb a relatively high carbon” should read “could absorb a relatively high carbon tax.”
Just another example of the Secret Harpo Party’s agenda when it comes to big oil and why we need an election NOW!
Jon Harding, Calgary Herald
Published: Friday, June 06, 2008
Environmental groups fighting Imperial Oil Ltd.’s proposed Kearl oilsands mine will consider suing members of Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s cabinet, including Fisheries and Oceans Minister Loyola Hearn, if Ottawa returns a water licence to the company with no conditions to mitigate greenhouse gas emissions.
Ottawa is in a position to hand the key water permit back to Imperial any day, after Fisheries and Oceans Canada said Thursday that cabinet’s May 15 approval of Kearl’s environmental assessment gives it the authority “to perform any duty related to the project.”
It was revealed in the Herald on Thursday the federal cabinet quietly rubber-stamped the controversial project’s environmental assessment on May 15, 10 months after Ottawa originally approved the project.
The $8-billion mine proposed by Imperial and partner ExxonMobil Corp. ensnared in a legal fight this spring after four green groups successfully reopened Kearl’s environmental assessment process. Turning back the clock forced Fisheries and Oceans Canada in March to revoke the water permit it issued last year. As a result, some construction work at the Kearl site north of Fort McMurray was postponed until the water licence is returned.
And we/Liberals continue to wring our hands and point fingers-Dion’s new mantra must be “woe is us” “what shall I do?”
How about stand up for Canadians!
We need some political leadership on any one of these files? NOW not later!
The campaign is being funded by voluntary donations from Conservative supporters across Canada.
http://www.conservative.ca
By Harry S on 06.08.08 9:51 am
Harry – have you ever been suckered in. Not only are big oil gouging, but Harper’s adding to their profits – he’s in bed with big oil. He’s paying for these pitiful ads with the money of CPC supporters so that they can further profit and support big oil – talk about an insult.
Fuuny, I live in a small town and my girlfriend’s teenage son (who’s really into the environment issue) said he’d like to get his friends to go with him and note all the gas stations that carry these ads and warn people – so that they can buy their gas elsewhere….at least the kid is trying.
“no hike in GAS TAXES since there is already a hefty federal excise tax collected from every litre sold.”
Garth, this clearly states that there will be no hike in GAS TAXES.
Can you state right now on this blog, speaking for Mr.Dion, that there will be no increase in the price of Gasoline due to this proposal. Not the Taxes on the gas, The price of the gasoline itself.
Harry; Most of the vile attacks come from Van Loan, Baird, Poilievre and Flaherty.
By Leasa on 06.08.08 10:53 am
Free trade with Colombia:
PM announces free trade talks with Colombia, Peru
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/07/16/harper-colombia.html
Harper announced his free trade talks last year in July when he was doing his Caribbean tour. Colombia was the only country in South America that he visited.
The U.S. has been pouring money into Colombia, mostly military “aid” for years, just to keep a toehold on that continent that is increasingly turning away from U.S. influence. Even Paraguay, one of the few right-wing governments left in the area went populist in April of this year.
The Bush family bought a huge tract of land there in the last few years, with ample water and natural gas deposits, probably as a place to bolt to to avoid war crimes trials after he completes his presidential term. At the time he bought it (Jenna Bush actually went there to seal the deal), Paraguay had no extradition treaty with the U.S., so if Bush made it there, he wouldn’t be sent back. Now, with the new government, an extradition treaty is definitely on the cards.
Colombia supplies most of the fresh flowers to the U.S., a huge deal what with Valentine’s Day and Mother’s Day being the biggest days for their product. But fresh flowers need to be fogged with pesticides before they’re cut and shipped, and women, who do most of the greenhouse work there, often work in unsafe conditions, going into greenhouses while the pesticide levels are unacceptably high. Many are poor (no doctors) or pregnant, so that babies are often born ill or with physical and mental defects and if the women get sick, they receive no pay.
There is a group called Flor Verde (green flower) which uses safe working practices and decent wages for its workers, but the product, of course, is more expensive, like fair trade coffee.
Most trade unionists, fair trade proponents and others concerned with working people were horrified when Stephen Harper stood up with Uribe in Colombia and announced his plan. He did it, of course, to show solidarity with Bush.
Then Stevie made a trip to Haiti, that poor wrecked country. His photo-op with the impoverished women and children there, all shined up for the occasion, made me feel sick. The look in their eyes told it all – they were hungry and in despair.
—–
By William Dahl on 06.08.08 11:07 am
About the prices in Whitehorse:
“When the casheer rung up $1.49 I insisted she was wrong. The person in front of me started laughing and said “you are new here aren’t you?””
I had a bit of sticker shock when I first went to live in Yellowknife. People who lived and worked there usually got a northern allowance to cover the cost of food, almost all of which had to be trucked up there. In the summer, the trucks could cross the river by ferry and in the winter they went on the ice road, but in between, during freeze-up and break-up, everything had to be air-lifted over the river by helicopter and loaded onto trucks on the other side. When that happened, the cost of things like milk, never cheap anyway, doubled overnight.
In the early eighties, the cost of food for two of us was about $100 a week.
—–
I try to buy local food all the time, except for oranges, coffee, bananas, etc., of course. Last year during apple season, I cut up and froze enough Ontario apples to provide us with pies, crumbles and sauce until the fall. I even buy Ontario hothouse tomatoes during the winter. In the summer, I go to the local farm shop for everything I can get – and grow stuff, of course.
I want to make sure there are still local businesses around when the only way to travel is by foot or bicycle.
Maybe there will be a switch in the future back to delivery of groceries, milk, bread etc. like there used to be. It makes more sense for one person to deliver to 50+ customers than the fifty customers to drive to a store individually.
Someone, KPN I think, mentioned the horse drawn wagons that used to deliver when she was a kid. I remember those too, in Montreal. The kids would run out and pull up handfuls of grass to feed the patient horse. The driver probably didn’t have to feed it at all when he got home.
Are horses going to be the new SUV’s?
Or would you rather see me as, say, a giant raddish?
Nah,a rutabaga .
Oh this is good. Now we have proof that Steve et al are in cahoots with big gas and oil. Paying them to run anti-Dion ads. That ought to sit well with people as they are pumping gas—to hear an ad by the Cons—wonder how many pumps will be defaced, defiled and boycotted if these ads are seen as Harper assuaging big oil profiteers at the expense of Canadian consumers.
What jerk in the Con black hole thought up this one???
Garth:
In part you have yourselves to blame. You didn’t position this issue properly in the first place. You called it a carbon tax. Now you’re calling it a tax shift/
Too bad your party’s political instincts aren’t better honed, for you should have called it a tax shift in the first place.
Keep in mind you’re up against the grand master of political misconceptions….Harper is the guy who called wiping out $35 billion in retirement savings as a “Tax Fairness Plan”. This was after he was elected on a platform of “not raiding seniors net eggs”.
Who actually is the Liberal’s communications strategist? The now anointed lettuce man, or somebody else?
Politics 101: Your shouldn’t let the opposition frame your platform issues for you, or let opposition parties get away with fraud….as in Flaherty’s claims that income trusts cause tax leakage.
Go ahead, don’t be afaid, call it what it is FRAUD. It will help define Harper. If you’re lucky he’ll sue you:
http://caiti-online-media.blogspot.com/2007/04/to-finance-minister-flaherty-your-tax.html
In reality the oil companies could absorb a relatively high carbon [tax]… There is a concept called “good corporate citizenship.” [However,] The more powerful a corporation or a sector becomes the less need they see to be good corporate citizens. Greed becomes all consuming.
We need government to put the breaks on this kind of behaviour but we have a government whose ideology is based on the “greed is good” principle and is actually aligning itself with the oil companies not just against the opposition parties but against the best interests of Canadian society as a whole.
By C. B. Innes on 06.08.08 1:07 pm
I agree in theory. In practice, we have little in place that would force corporations, oil companies being a primary but not the only example, to be “good citizens”. Further to that, I have heard little to suggest that the Liberals would take it to this level.
Do you believe that they would/could force the companies to absorb the tax?
If not, then I probably would prefer a clean and clear representation and simply claim this to be consumption tax – let the market forces play itself out. Of course to do this we need to invest in viable alternatives.
If it can be enforced at the corporate level, then call me naive, but what would the difference be between a carbon tax and cap-and-trade levy?
(We REALLY need the details to be outlined).
Let’s talk about this, and decide together if it’s the right approach. Let’s demand a debate, not a fight.
Or would you rather see me as, say, a giant raddish?
posted by Garth Turner on 06.08.08 @ 9:07 am
Well Garth, people are asking questions on this issue on your blog and you don’t seem to care. So much for discussion.
If you don’t have answers just say so. But don’t pretend to want to have this “debate” and then fail to attend.
Canadians have real questions and real fears about the Dion tax. You give rhetoric but no answers to questions. All that means is their fears are probably going to come to fruition and they will view you as a radish.
By Leasa on 06.08.08 10:53 am
Try looking at the Green Party…Just what farmers and we want…Sustainable economy, environmentaly responsible, and the highest standards for food production, not some ‘cheapen it down standards’ to allow the U.S. and foreign countries more of Canada’s marketplace.
So when is the government going to come out with fart meter’s we can plug in our ass so they can tax the amount of methane produced? Another enviromentaly friendly tax program.
All that means is their fears are probably going to come to fruition and they will view you as a radish.
By Janice on 06.08.08 2:17 pm
Ah,hem ! That is Mr. Rutabaga to you lady.
Canadians have real questions and real fears about the Dion tax. You give rhetoric but no answers to questions. All that means is their fears are probably going to come to fruition and they will view you as a radish.
By Janice on 06.08.08 2:17 pm
Okay, Janice – keep it up. Keep being a sucker. Keep those oil companies rich with your donations.
Harper is not a leader – he’s owned by big oil – he’s on his knees for them – even supporting them by paid advertising for their advantage.
Harper is not a leader – he’s owned – a real leader is not owned. Harper is a weak little puppy dog. He doesn’t care if you are gouged at the pumps – he encourages it. Not worth the risk.
What was the question?
Oh yes,
So, that’s the plan. Shift taxes from what you earn to what you burn. Tax polluters more and taxpayers less. Give us incentive to cut consumption. Save the planet.
Let me see if I’ve got this right. Polluters can keep on polluting but it’s going to cost them more. Money, millions or billions of dollars will be shunted around but the air won’t be any more breathable and the lakes, rivers and oceans won’t be any less polluted. You might save a couple of hundred dollars in taxes but we will see more and more kids with chronic asthma and more seniors will die in heat waves. Cancer will increase exponentially.
It’s the usual nonsense all dressed up as a break for the abused taxpayer. Irresponsible corporations will not be phased by an increase in taxes if they can pass them along to consumers.
I’m not buying it. Polluters have to stop polluting. There is no other option.
P.S. Thanks or finding the ‘Madam..’ quotation CM.
Canadians have real questions and real fears about the Dion tax. You give rhetoric but no answers to questions. All that means is their fears are probably going to come to fruition and they will view you as a radish.
By Janice on 06.08.08 2:17 pm
Or it could mean their fears are misguided and will be all cleared up when the writ drops….
or do you know more than the rest of the folks on here, your previous attitude and condecending manner would suggest that is the case!
[...] to defend this if we actually have specifics to point to, rather then generalities. I realize Garth Turner is doing the best he can with what hw knows or is allowed to talk about, but the public and the [...]
I thought the neocons were bad enough and this latest ad campaign is sickening. I cannot see how any person with any intelligence would vote for a party which puts out those negative ads. I don’t want people with that attitude governing my Canada.
I can see why they kicked Garth out–he was too good for them.
It seems this article is even more appropriate today after the latest Cadman news regarding altering of the tape which is Bullsh.. IMHO
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/subscriber/westview/story/4173157p-4761528c.html
Conservative bullying undermines democracy
Frances Russell
Updated: May 14, 2008 at 12:55 AM CDT
Libel chill to stifle public inquiry. Intimidation to turn national institutions into servants of the party in power. Trash talk to destabilize opponents. A “black book” of procedural dirty tricks to disrupt parliamentary committees.
Like former U.S. president Richard Nixon, Prime Minister Stephen Harper wants power “not to govern the nation but to undermine the government,” Trent University historian Dimitry Anastakis and Saskatchewan journalist Jeet Heer write in Britain’s Guardian Unlimited. Harper, they continue, “sees many Canadian institutions as illegitimate, not just in need of reform but worth attacking root and branch.”
Last March, Harper made Canadian history by suing the leader of the Official Opposition, the deputy Liberal leader, a prominent Liberal frontbencher and the party for “impugning” his reputation through “malicious and reckless defamatory statements.” The Liberals alleged the Conservatives offered dying Independent MP Chuck Cadman a $1-million life insurance policy to vote against the Liberal minority government’s 2005 spring budget.
Harper subsequently dropped St ©phane Dion, Michael Ignatieff and Ralph Goodale from his case but is still proceeding against the party. He has threatened Dion that “this will prove to be in court the biggest mistake the leader of the Liberal party ever made.”
Last weekend, the RCMP confirmed it has interviewed Cadman’s widow and daughter but is refusing to say whether it has launched an official investigation.
The Cadman affair is the most high-profile example of the Conservatives’ libel chill offensive. Nova Scotia Liberal MP Robert Thibault has been barred by the federal ethics commissioner from asking further questions about the Brian Mulroney-Karlheinz Schreiber relationship because the former prime minister slapped him with a lawsuit over his comments in a television interview.
Thibault is standing his ground and challenging parliament to address the growing libel chill threat, raising the spectre that frivolous lawsuits could silence legitimate parliamentary inquiry and the role of the opposition to hold the government accountable.
Ontario Liberal MP Mark Holland is being sued by Environment Minister John Baird’s chief of staff, Chris Froggatt, for publicly suggesting he “interfered with or attempted to interfere with a police investigation into Minister Baird.”
Last fall, Baird was interviewed twice by Ontario Provincial Police detectives over allegations Ottawa Mayor Larry O’Brien, a long-time friend of Baird’s, offered to help an opponent get a federal job if he dropped out of the 2006 mayoral race. News last December that the OPP was set to forward its dossier to the RCMP to probe any role Baird may have played prompted Froggatt to make a series of calls to a detective and the superintendent of the anti-rackets unit. Froggatt claims he only made the calls after getting inquiries from the media and calls Holland’s accusations “seriously defamatory.”
Also last fall, Dion had to issue a public apology to Harper’s spokesman, Dimitri Soudas, for allegedly defaming him over accusations Soudas interfered on behalf of a Montreal real estate developer involved in a multi-million-dollar lawsuit with the federal public works department.
Elections Canada is the latest federal institution to feel the full force of Harperite fury. Last Friday, Ontario Conservative MP Pierre Poilievre and a group of Conservative backbenchers engaged in a mocking chant to attack the respected federal elections agency. The Conservatives charge that other parties are also guilty of “in and out” bookkeeping, but Elections Canada is only going after Conservatives. Conservative backbenchers chanted “In and out; In and out” as Poilievre repeatedly chanted back “Where’s Elections Canada?”
The chief electoral officer and the elections commissioner are both Harper appointees.
Here’s a list of other Conservative assaults on Canada’s public institutions: Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission president Linda Keen, fired; the two top officials of the Canadian Wheat Board, removed; the Law Commission of Canada, closed; the Court Challenges Program, killed; several senior environmental and scientific positions, eliminated; several officers of Parliament — the former ethics commissioner, the former chief electoral officer and the former information commissioner –all retired after high-profile run-ins with the Harperites; the chair and advisory panel of the Immigration and Refugee Board, all resigned.
Last week, Auditor General Sheila Fraser blew the whistle on a Conservative plan to require her and other officers of Parliament to clear all public communications through the Prime Minister’s Office.
Imagine how that could have gagged Fraser’s incendiary report on the Liberal sponsorship scandal in February 2004 — the issue that brought the Harperites to power. Imagine further how the Conservatives could have been libel-chilled from probing it.
Like schoolyard bullies at recess, the Conservatives have been trash-talking Dion just before daily question period. Toronto Liberal MP Bob Rae calls it “ritual denunciation.”
The Conservative chair has blocked a parliamentary committee’s investigation of the Cadman affair for months by walking out on every meeting.
Hostility towards the federal power, indeed, towards government itself, spawned the Harperites’ ancestor, the Reform party. But their assaults on Parliament and their derision and coercion of Canada’s federal institutions are more than partisanship run amok. Degrading and undermining democratic institutions degrades and undermines democracy itself.
Been consuming a steady diet of manure Garth? Cause that’s all your post is.
Incompetence breeds hatred .
Con-bots are too stupid to write bullet proof legislation that will pass the SCOC appeals .
Look at the garbage that Stockboy Day et al keep shovelling .
Reverse onus bail hearings . Locking up ten year olds
No environmental plan .No health care plan. No day care plan .
No comprehensive tax regime .
Zero. Zip. Zilch .
In case no one has told them they are now in control of the agenda,ostensibly .
Canadians are sick, tired and fed up with ” Well that is the fault of the Liberal govenment ” refrain ad nauseum .
Porky Pig Van Loony Tune gets dumber and more irritating by the minute .
If they ever have a good idea they had better be nice to it because it will be in a,very, lonely place .
Meanwhile all they can do is attack the people who do care and do have good ideas to take our nation forward into the “Brave New World ”
All one has to do is read the idiocy posted by their supporters on this blog .
Arrogant, supercillious and condescending in the extreme .
Demanding that our host reply or he should not bother posting again .
I realize that these con-bots were bullied as children .It is so obvious .
They have no real freinds .
The immaturity level is breath taking and disconcerting .
It is no accident that their strongest supporters reside in Texas North-Alberta .
All they know how to do is cry and whine .Losers .
Leasa … our forum Regressive Conservative Orchardista .. save my butt please …!!!
Could someone (Garth or any poster) answer two naive questions for me:
(1) What impact will a carbon tax on Canadian companies have on the global competitiveness of said companies if their international rivals are not having a similar tax imposed on them.
(2) Will this scheme not just result in a game of financial boomerang with out tax dollars? Companies will be taxed at a higher rate and we, as a result, pay less income tax. The companies then charge more for their goods because they are being taxed at a higher rate and we, as a result, spend more of our (now higher) take home pay on these goods. Seems like a net gain of zero for average Canadians.
Thanks to anyone who replies.
Lettuce isn’t hard to grow in Canada, if you can’t grow it in your garden for less than $8, you’re doing something wrong.
This childish, spineless attack ad is just another in a long list of schoolboy tactics by the unbelievably immature Harper Regime.
It is intended ONLY to distract people from the very very serious allegations of corruption and malfeasance emanating from the stench that is the Harper goon squad.
Mr. Turner, please DO NOT let these children distract you from your service to Canada.
Keep the pressure on over the stunning and appaling Bernier security breach that appears to have been CONDONED by Harper.
Keep reminding Canadians that Harper has never explained his statements when he is alleged to have attempted to Bribe an MP in the Cadman scandal.
Keep reminding Canadians that Harper the a-hole promised a full into the Mulroney Scheiber affair and has since done absolutely nothing.
Keep holding Harpers feet to the fire on behalf of people who care about our country.
This foul and disgraceful Harper regime reflects just one scandal after another. And each time Harper tries to distract from his incredible shortcomings with schoolyard tactics befitting a 5 year old.
Seriously, I have come to believe that there is something mentally wrong with the boy.
When referring to the political career of Harper, I have stopped using the term politics.
Harper is all about POLITRICKS, no truth, no honour, no dignity, and no hope.
Save us from this foul Harper regime.
That head of lettuce should not be trucked.
We shall not forget what they did to Ontario before going to Ottawa.
During the time of the Harris Eve era the highest numbers of closures of small farm in the history of Ontario.
Also during this time there was and on the way closing of 14 primary off the farm processing plants in Ontario.
The free trade deal opened the doors for food imports ie modified milk that’s put in the ice cream and cheese in witch took away from Ontario farmers.
And now I got to go to China for a can of peaches or mushrooms.
Plus do to the closings of three freezer plants under Harris Eves era all frozen vegis come from the US
I live in Parry Sound area and during the summer there is over a million dollars a week sold of meat.
The roast of beef has 2500 hundred miles on it.
Do to the high cost of oil there is opportunity to bring back employment by the reduction of food miles.
Northern Ontario is capable of feeding ourselves. Good things should grow in Ontario.
We need a government to stand up for the people not BIG OIL
Re free trade with Colombia:
My mistake. When Harper visited South America last year, he went to Chile and Colombia.
Trees clean the air. An acre can remove about 13 tons of dusts, gases, and pollutants from the atmosphere every year. How many acres of tree’s have been clear cut from our forest’s? How much cleaner would the air have been had they not been cut?
I know we all use lumber,but I think a good percentage of the lumber harvested is shipped to other countries for profit
and now the Canadian people are going to pay.
Been consuming a steady diet of manure Garth? Cause that’s all your post is.
By Bruce on 06.08.08 2:51 pm
Manure provided by con-bot central .
My,how intelligent .
Thanks for the erudition ‘ya friggin’ creep .
It’d be far easeier to “debate” the Liberal carbon tax plan if the Liberals would actually share it with Canadians, Garth.
On the issue of this Parliament being “bitter and confrontational” it sounds a little like Garth.ca.
What will happen when industry has to pay a huge carbon tax? Why they will just leave . . . that is the 3 that are still here!!!
Carbon trading in Europe has made huge fortunes for those engaging in the scam . . . of course guess who pays the bill . . . just the dumb consumer.
Any one notice where Al the Goricle has been investing lately . . . in carbon trading schemes . . . make money out of hot air.
By the way . . . I am starting my own CT company . . . anyone wanting to feel better about driving their truck or breathing for that matter can send me $50 . . . and I will do pennance for their sins.
Good Catherine, you stick with the CPC and their plan to do nothing….that works for you I am sure!
By wjp on 06.08.08 11:08 am
So you prefer to punish us – by gouging us with more taxes and loss of jobs? Typical Liberals.
Oh and who was it that brough in the emission testing in Ontario? Why – it was that bad, neo-con Mike Harris. Conservatives generally act for our good and Liberals generally yap and tax us to death.
Quote: Would those polluters – oil producers, hydro generating stations, smelters, mills, manufacturers – pass on this new tax burden to consumers in the form of higher prices? After all, this is the foundation of the Conservative attack on the idea. -end quote
You mean like the retailer hiked up the price on goods after the CRAPOLA gst cut?? That kind of higher prices???
Well at least with Dion’s plan I’ll have more money in my pocket to pay the higher prices or not, whatever I choose to buy. Not like now where I am getting screwed over on my income taxes, screwed over on my purchases and screwed over on the high $$$$, savings, lack of incentive to turn my house into a green home, etc.
If I pull up to a gas station and some pimp voice squeaks at me to listen to his lies about carbon tax, it’ll get riped off the pumps and smashed and I will never, ever buy gas at that station again.
I also though yellow was an appropriate colour for the cowardly acts of the Harpo CRAPERS.
Here’s a suggestion, Garth:
http://www.greenparty.ca/en/policy/visiongreen/partone#_Toc179815122
This is a link to the Green Party tax shift plan. Now can we see the Liberal tax shift plan? Instead of worrying about childish conservative tactics, change the channel and talk policy. This is like having preschoolers — we’re dying for some adult conversation here.
Been away, been busy… and missed out on some excellent pieces by Garth, excellent topics and some of the the commentary was worth taking in (you know, some).
So lets debate! (Liberals tend to, anyways)
Firstly, we don’t know the details of the plan. But… do we have to, to debate what a plan should have to be successful? Lets start at the beginning. The bare bones of it. The structure of what is needed for success. Simplicity. And then go to details and complexity from there.
To get to the right answers, one must ask the right questions. For those who seek the answers to the meanings of life, or, well, anything, there are 12 general questions of which all other questions come from. They are as follows:
Origins. Timelines. Purpose. Potential. (and the fulfillment of these first four)
Next are the W5. Who, what, where, why, when. (and these are no less important to be sure)
The final three deal specifically with failure and success. Will, goal, plan.
Origins, timelines, purpose, potential, who, what, where, why, when, will, goal, plan.
And the last three, will, goal, plan… if any of these three are off, failure is certain. Even if these last three are functional and sound, success isn’t a lock. The question of Potential comes to mind. And timelines…
This is the structure of it. The beginning. And if our will is not Good and is merely aimed at self interest and profit, a selfish will, a destructive will, failure is certain.
And if our goal is not self-sustainability, of looking after the macro environment that looks after all life never mind our own, to be a model nation for others to follow, a guiding light with such dark clouds closing in in terms of chronic shortages from human populations that are already likely too high, or human consumption that is too wasteful, or both… we will fail.
And if the plan does not promote inclusiveness, environmental sustainability, is not fair and flexible in times of constantly changing variables and yet is rigid enough to survive poor leadership, or the plan doesn’t consider all the variables in mind, (currencies, resources, depletion, resource consumption, geopolitical governments, nationalist/capitalist economies, human populations, ideologies concerning ownership breakdowns, ALLOCATION OF RESOURCES, design manufacturing and materials in mass production, exclusive/inclusiveness, just to name the tip of the iceburg) we will most certainly fail.
Here’s what we know. We know peak oil is for real. And if we don’t know what peak oil is, we had better find out fast and at the same time, find out quickly what burning the rest of it means both in terms of economic crashes to existing infrastructure, transportation means, and most importantly, environmental ecological collapse… you know, failure…
And if we don’t know that 6.4 billion, projected to be nearing 6.5 billion people on the planet before years end means both in degrading environments and accelerating with continued population growth, or that governments rely heavily on such population growth to stimilate economies and get re-elected, we will fail. Collectively.
And if we don’t also know why the system is so important in terms of being a major part of the solution, as well as businesses, we will also fail.
So this is how I see it. We are talking about the system and make no mistake, its the system that guaranteed human rights for us all. In Canada, we call it the charter, enshrined in our constitution. And what has it changed? How much “effect” has the system had on humanity? How much has it “conditioned” us?
If we looked back to the question of timelines, looked back into history, even unto the origins of modern man, we would see that we haven’t changed much in the last 5000 years, maybe 10 thousand, maybe 40 thousand. But humanity began to keep records, believing in humanity as well as Gods, believing in the next generations to come, attaching a vested interest in the future that is undeniable. And through that evolution, we learned collectively through our failures and successes, good will and bad, good goals and bad, especially in the last century as technology exploded with human population growth that outpaced superstitions and dead Gods, we learned the value in human rights, in the protection of the environment, the value within the system itself.
It was once said that… one human is worth many, many sparrows. Considering the allocation of resources and the value of the system, how much moreso is the system worth than human life? And while spiritualists may disagree in terms of the value of a human spirit in relation to the system, what can a system spawn in terms of true numbers of such spirits? How can one compare finite with what is infinite? Apples and buicks, folks. Apples and buicks of which only cult leaders and their followers dare to compare as one and the same.
A poor system can see the human lifespan last less than 40 years. An excellent system can see human life last more than 80 with much greater numbers… at least, to a point. And so… here we are today to discuss, hopefully, actually debate the system. Some with a hundred words, some with a thousand, and maybe one (cough, cough) with 10 thousand.
Dark clouds are almost here. We live in an age where history has not repeated itself. Humanity has never faced a time when just one species can decide the fate or existence of all other life on earth. We’ve never seen this before. We live in an age where just decades ago, nearly instantaneous communication with someone from China was impossible. From Archemidies, to DeVinci, to Tesla, genius comes seemingly once a millenium, but in an age where the internet thrives and is still inclusive, we are now many in one, pooling our talents and potential realized to create something as awesome as the internet itself.
We have the ways and means, folks. There is no problem that cannot be solved, no solution that cannot be left buried but now, I think, for our survival, we’ll have to look back to the basics… will, goal, plan. These are inseparable. Success is not dependant solely on one, but one three if not more questions/answers in general and the specifics… the detail…
Is a can of worms.
And if we can’t get beyond lettuce and putdowns of which I’ve heard better arguments come from kindergarteners (sticks and stones will break my bones, but…). Or get beyond the simple art of debate (of which, when one knows the attacks and counters can shred any unschooled opponent, why, out of sheer ego, try me but… aren’t any of you tired of seeing the wrong way to win an arguement? Tired of seeing answers given but coldly? And personally? Do you want to be next? Haven’t you all had enough? Or maybe you all want to see it played out in the highest offices of the land as well as this site, trumping debate, trumping answers, trumping solutions, trumping a higher standard, a higher quality of life…) Get beyond our egos and putdowns, our want to belittle others to build ourselves up, beyond the land of pretending to know the sheer weight of the problem and worse still, pretending to know the solutions, do you all not know that winning an arguement, winning a debate solves nothing? For in the end, it comes down to will, goal, plan and seeing it realized.
Back to the system. It wasn’t so long ago that women were allowed to vote. 5,000 years went by and we genetically changed next to nil but the system… the changes in consciousness from Christ to democracy, changed us. Conditioned us. And we’d better take full note of it because if these systems didn’t exist, if our government the way we now have it didn’t exist, human rights the way we know it wouldn’t exist. Why do men treat their women differently today than they did 5,000 years ago? Did their hearts change? Their minds? The system changed and with that change, came human rights that conditioned most men to see ourselves, our neighbors, our differences in race, creed, color, sex, age, occupation… differently… because we are products of our own environments!
Sort of…
But…
We still have the problem of oligarchies. Of concentrated wealth. And when I see the worlds largest corporation (Exxon) with a market cap larger than all of the worlds auto manufacturers combined (so I hear, you’re all welcome to challenge me on that one, it might not be true), who will dictate the MPG standards coming from GM, Ford and Dodge? Who will slow down the positive changes to slowing conventional energy consumptiont that should occur? Who will drive market forces to shortages before their time, spending money on propaganda wars, encouraging governments to fight oil wars, organizing other self interests from defence corps, to drug corps, to banks, to crooked politicians, to corrupting the very system itself?
Maybe it wasn’t on your radars but the congressional/senate hearings on the price of gas at the pumps, with discussions on ethanol to discussions with big oil directors and CEO’s… and that, if any of you watched and were in the know, was disturbing.
Here, we had a director from Exxon telling a senator that he couldn’t predict the future price of oil, that he wasn’t smart enough, that no one was smart enough to predict its future. It was just one of many lies in the name of self interests/shareholder values.
But thats not all that is disturbing. Even if world populations don’t rise (and they will, barring another spanish flu or ecological disaster that often comes well past the tipping point, unfortunately), we will see shortages.
The future, as I see it, is bleak for the populations we see now to survive through to an 80 year average with dignity unless major structural changes to the system are done. We have major chronic shortages coming. Some of them continental, some world wide. The poor nations will suffer the most and first. Then the 2nd world countries. The first world’s, due to their systems being corrupted (especially the U.S.) and creating oligarchies as in large, multinational monopolies, shrinks the middle class as we have seen and creates recessions.
Who is responsible? We all are, leaders and followers alike. Who was it that voted for GWB and his Northern puppet? Who was it that decided that corporations and their lobbyists should dictate governmental policies?
Who’s bright idea was it that decided we should carelessly ignore the ugly realities of supply and demand, of shippiing manufacturing jobs overseas, of deregulating how corporations do business, of giving entities without a soul more rights than those who possess one? Who’s bright idea was it that decided we needed to cut our forests down to live in homes? To drive veichles that weigh 2 tonnes to shop for groceries, to stonewall energy efficiency from the air car, to hybrids, to infrastructure design that integrated efficiency in every aspect from town to cities on a municiple level?
And who actually believes there isn’t money to be made in energy efficiency, in new development that is in every way, promoting self sustainability and cradle to cradle design/manufacturing/materials?
Cause’ thats what its going to take.
Its not just this nation but the world that needs this vision, folks. And Europe is well ahead of us, make no mistake but we can outpace them if we get the design right the first time out. Get the right plan. With good will. And what should that common goal of, you know, survival with dignity… for us all.
Because if we don’t, this is what will happen. Energy shortages world wide within 5 to 10 years. With natural gas, in the U.S., by 2020, 2025 (and this was Exxons panecea, what lies). With potassium/phospates e.i. fertilizers, 5 to 10 years and if anyone wishes to dispute this, look at the existing known deposits and their rates of depletion, it doesn’t look good. And the effect? Fertilizer shortages in North America between 5 to 10 years from now. High grade coal? less than 20 years away, some say 10. Fresh water? Already happening in some continents, most especially some nations. Metals? 5 to 10 to 20 to 30, depending on the metal (base metals, I’m talking about here). Oil? 5 to 10 years away and sooner in other continents/nations.
Meanwhile, ocean currents have slowed 30% in the last 30 years from the rapid ice melts caused by accelerating climate change. Ozone holes keep expanding from CFC’s that are leaking out of old fridges and air conditioners, accelerating climate change. CO2 and methane levels keep rising with science certain about the consequences. Plankton, a major CO2/O2 factor, is dying in major percentages as a result of the changes in light hitting the earth. Marine mammals are a 10th of the populations they were 50 to 100 years ago. Coral reefs are dying world wide from ozone damage/pollution/acidification of ocean waters. Pacific salmon are in jeapardy from fish farm lice at the mouths of spawning rivers off of BC’s coast while governments do next to nothing in terms of moving existing farms to more sensible locations and all the while, fish stocks are plummeting from climate change, over fishing, development, greed and government corruption at both federal and provincial levels. Coral reefs are dying world wide as a result of ozone destruction and ocean acidification from pollution. We now have dead spot the size of Saskachewan for an example (600 x 1,000 miles) created by fertilizers pouring out of the Mississippi. All but two U.S. states have contaminated freshwater fish, unfit for human consumption. We have a plastic island caught in an ocean current vortex located in the middle of the pacific ocean almost the size of Florida, some 30 metres in depth. Speaking of plastics, our love affair with plastics has more than 90% of the North American population carrying unsafe PCB levels mainly from food and drink packaging, and we don’t know it, nor know its long term effects. 7% of the Canadian population now has diabetes. More than a full third of us are now obese and another full third is overweight and on its way. And as corporations study nature to “tweak” it to sell something “exclusive”, natures superior secrets are kept shut in the data vault for the lack of making a buck. GM foods and terminator seeds are becoming the norm, while cancer, specifically in digestive systems and sex glands created by estrogen mimickers (PCB’s and estrogen/growth hormones in the food supply, particularly meats), preservatives, colors, dyes, pasturization, chemical sprays etc are going through the roof. Antibiotic resistance bacterias are now becoming the norm and the fear of catching an infection that cannot be cured, caught and created by an operation in a hospital is generating fear that is rooted in reality. More than 2/3rds of the ocean floor has been dragged for marine life, most of it more than once. Disappearing glaciers, rapid weight displacements happening or about to happen in Greenland and Antartica and to my knowledge, no known models are being worked out to understand the effects to our faultlines and earthquakes from Sunami’s and quakes to possible volcanoes… 30% of our land base is considered to be in serious decline while the rest is declining at “less serious rates”. Deforestation is happening at unbelievable, never mind unsustainable levels.
Fear mongering? Its all a matter of record and a good minority if not the outright majority of us are so unaware, caught in our own little bubbles, our own individual paradigms, blinded by our own self interests and self centered ways of life that we don’t know what lies ahead?
Don’t expect the solutions to come from a goverment that runs on a platform of “smaller government is better government”, doing nothing to regulate greedy corporations and instead do everything they can to facilitate the growth of oligarchies, the concentrated wealth that breaks economies… and the increased market share of current monopolies to their own self interests and the skyrocketing price fixing to the rest of us consumers as a result.
So… I don’t know about y’all, but I’m pissed. I’ve got an axe to grind. And when I see the failed leadership of the Harper party praised, and talks of how do nothing, cut taxes, deregulate, smaller is better, Bush policy is Canada’s foreign/economic policy, weaken the federal system Harper policy is somehow the best we can do or even deserves talk of a majority, it sours my mood because I really, really thought Canadians were smarter.
Smart enough to realize why we think differently than Americans out of a simple placement of where we were born. Smart enough to understand the sheer importance of just how and why our system of government is so important and how fragile it is to just one leader that lacks the vision and imagination, blinded by his own self interests, unable to see the rest of us through hard times because these hard times will come.
And we can’t agree on something as simple as a tax on carbon as necessary? We can’t agree that the goal itself is sound?
My hypothesis is certain that we had better look at the will that’s inside our hearts, the goals we truly aspire towards, and the plan we wish to take to truly make it happen to not be so arrogant or ignorant to think that the efforts of a few will decide the course for the many, or that it won’t take hundreds of solutions working synergistically to get it done or failure, including our own ability to survive with dignity is certain.
Lets get back to the debate! Recognize what succeeds and build on it! Recognize our failures! Our weaknesses and strengths, our long suits and short suits, our adversaries and challenges that lay ahead because we don’t, once again, failure is certain and I don’t know about y’all, but I’m not going to take failure lying down and if I’ve ever said one thing that makes sense or is worth repeating until its heard, its that we must learn to be our brothers keeper. Think about the next person beside you… the one you’ll never have a chance to even know. Think about their needs and wants and goals and yes their plans, good and bad because if we don’t, if we can’t learn this… to effectively put ourselves in the shoes of others, to think outside the box, losses will be extreme and everyone, rich or poor, will feel it. Everyone’s lives will be heavily touched by it and those who survive won’t find much to be happy about.
A few final words (if its ever possible from me).
There is great power in numbers. The system needs fundamental changes in mass production, mass media, mass religions and mass education. Profit or sole self gain must be replaced by sustainability and the general benefit for us all.
Think big. In the realm of a debate such as this, think big.
And remember this… “Selfishness? Welcome to the road to self destruction. Selflessness? Same thing. Welcome to the road to self destruction. In order for us to survive, we must consider everyone including ourselves to survive. And who does? But we must try. Our survival depends on it.”
I don’t expect every individual to come up with genius, some of us just don’t have that potential. But I do expect most of us to know the difference between right and wrong and to recognize the causal effects of both government parties with pics like this on their website don’t offer much in the way of solutions or imagination…
Look to Europe as having the best tested models in terms of the environment/development. Dion has and could take it further, improving on what systems Europe already has in place. With tax schemes and environmental practices, look to Europe and know that we can improve on it if we have full federal/provincial/municiple co-operation and take a good long hard look at the four masses and their economic consequences both good and bad. Remember, with or without money, the use of numbers will always be needed but greed must be taken out of the systems we all use because this is where its eventually headed anyways for the survivors of the future. It will always be about the allocation of resources , the ideology of ownership, and our collective will, goal and plan and whether or not its dawned on anyone who reads this, a major change of governance is just the beginning. We need plans for success and for failure, the failure within other governments such as the U.S. to get it right and if we haven’t looked at the mere generalities, the simplicity of it, there is no hope for the complexities needed to adjust to the changing variables to come.
Until then, we’ll just vent frustrations, offering at most, a dot begging to be connected with the rest without anyone to connect them. Think big (and yah, don’t forget at the same time to think small, but think big).
(sorry about the long post Garth, but, y’know)
Take your time… and… good luck!
This U.S. recession will last approximately 3 more years. High energy prices, peak oil fears, but mainly a collapsing U.S. dollar will mean hard times for a while to come and Canadians, if they don’t get it together, will suffer one too! We are seeing it now. A devastated forestry and manufacturing sector from curren
If it can be enforced at the corporate level, then call me naive, but what would the difference be between a carbon tax and cap-and-trade levy?
(We REALLY need the details to be outlined).
By Randy Too on 06.08.08 2:14 pm
Neither option is ideal. Some suggest that a combination of the two might be better than the use of one alone. Certainly the development of alternatives is essential. I doubt that too many oil companies would walk away from such a profitable resource even it they could not download the total cost of a carbon levy to consumers.
There has to be a will to control the freedom of corporate exploitation of resources, the environment, workers, and consumers. It is difficult to say if any government is willing to take the necessary measures.
I think the Conservatives have just dropped a finned thingy on Dion and the Liberal party.
http://www.willyoubetricked.ca/
By Harry S on 06.08.08 10:04 am
My take on all this is that the Cons are CRAPping in their pants over Dion’s proposed plan because it will likely be A GOOD PLAN. Why else would the Cons bother spending what looks to be like an enormous amount of money on an “advertising” plan do discredit Dion’s carbon strategy?
Harper is pulling out all stops now to try to discredit Dion and the Liberals even further because of his useless do-nothing strategy, his weak and talentless cabinet, and his pandering to the US and Big Oil.
Mr. Harper, you have no-one to blame but yourself for your demise and no amount of smear campaign spending will save you your job in the HoC. Good riddance I say…sayonara Steve.
Interesting comment on the Libs not releasing the “plan” until the writ drops. That’d mean there’s next to no time to discuss it, figure out the pros and cons, decide if it deserves support, etc. Then you add in the various other unrelenting B.S. that flows during an election campaign and it all points to a complete lack of regard for the electorate (ya, that’s something new). Then the politicians wonder why they score so poorly in the “trust” department.
I think this latest smear campaign is as good as the Conservatives have got. With all their cards on the table if we were to have an election right now I wonder if the CPC would have much more to say. I am really hoping to see the government fall this week as such adolescent idiocy shouldn’t be that hard to beat.
Conservatives generally act for our good….
BY CATHERINE ON 06.08.08 3:36 PM
Eh??? You left out the rest of the statement that goes ‘and often make reckless and irresponsible statements that have no basis in fact’
I don’t believe any of the current crop are capable of taking a leadership role in anything that would introduce significant change in Canada. Increasingly our governments appear to be in a reactive, rather than proactive, mindset. Quite literally evry day a new “crisis” emerges that soaks up all the attention of the government, media and most of society, then disappears when the next one appears. Long-term planning or a vision for how Canada should evolve over the long-term is almost unknown.
Could someone (Garth or any poster) answer two naive questions for me:
(1) What impact will a carbon tax on Canadian companies have on the global competitiveness of said companies if their international rivals are not having a similar tax imposed on them.
(2) Will this scheme not just result in a game of financial boomerang with out tax dollars? Companies will be taxed at a higher rate and we, as a result, pay less income tax. The companies then charge more for their goods because they are being taxed at a higher rate and we, as a result, spend more of our (now higher) take home pay on these goods. Seems like a net gain of zero for average Canadians.
Thanks to anyone who replies.
By Ford on 06.08.08 3:05 pm
(1) The question is: would the oil companies abandon their investment in a lucrative resource to spite a government that dare tax their emissions? If you are making huge profits and you control a resource you are more than competitive. In fact, one might argue that the petroleum industry is currently a non-competitive industry that gives it something close to a monopoly.
(2) That is a risk if there is no attempt to prevent that kind of downloading. What government should be looking at with any environmental policy is the adaptation of the market to provide alternatives. In a revenue neutral scheme, while going into what appears to be a recession, the Conservative government has been closing the options a future government in assisting with the necessary transition.
My impression of the current government is that its main priority is to protect the rapidly increasing profits of the oil companies. Pursuing that priority has major implications for the environment and the rest of the Canadian economy. At the same time, it is a strategy that fits well with the pro-Alberta and pro-petroleum industry focus of the current government.
By Emilie on 06.08.08 3:37 pm
Well at least with Dion’s plan I’ll have more money in my pocket to pay the higher prices or not, whatever I choose to buy. Not like now where I am getting screwed over on my income taxes, screwed over on my purchases and screwed over on the high $$$$, savings, lack of incentive to turn my house into a green home, etc.
……………………………………….
Yes, Emilie ….. Dion’s planned tax shift will lower your income tax, but the tax shift will only mean it’s tax neutral for the federal government, not you specifically. The burning question will be: Is Dion’s tax reduction enough to compensate for rising world oil prices … and if oil prices collapse, will Dion readjust the Carbon Tax downwards, or is it always there.
Dion promised to produce his Green Plan in June, and I’m certain everybody is eagerly awaiting it … and I hope he doesn’t stall until June 30th to reveal it..!!!
Ha,Ha,Ha, Lieberals sit on their hands, have no money except for that which is stolen, too gutless to go to the polls.
Poor, poor pathetic Lieberals.
Cry me a river. HAHAHAHAHA!
Thanks for adding so much to the debate, Bruce. — Garth
I also though yellow was an appropriate colour for the cowardly acts of the Harpo CRAPERS.
By Emilie on 06.08.08 3:37 pm
Right-on observation Emilie. I totally agree. All bullies are cowards. I knew these guys stooped pretty low and thought the Cadman doctored tape affair was the bottom and I guess I was wrong. How would anyone with any brains vote for these people with this negative attitude.
C. B. Innes, thanks so much for your answers. In my first question, I wasn’t asking specifically about oil companies. Surely, high energy using manufacturers will also be hit hard by the carbon tax. My question was more directed to the competitiveness of these companies.
Your impression of the current government (and their friends running the US government) are in line with my thoughts.
“no hike in GAS TAXES since there is already a hefty federal excise tax collected from every litre sold.”
Garth, this clearly states that there will be no hike in GAS TAXES. We know that there will be no increase in taxes on gas(that would be political suicide for any party)but what about the PRICE OF GASOLINE BEFORE THE TAXES ARE INCLUDED.
Can you state right now on this blog, speaking for Mr.Dion or for yourself that there will be no increase in the price of Gasoline due to this proposal. I state again just to be clear, not the Taxes on the gas, but the price of the gasoline itself.
IF THE PRICE OF GAS GOES UP SO DO THE TAXES THAT THE GOVERNMENT COLLECTS.
Wake up people.
Wrong. The excise tax does not increase if the price of gas goes up. As for a carbon tax-induced increase in fuel costs, I am told the estimated increase is between a half-cent and two cents per litre as an eventual pass-through by producers. The income tax cuts everyone will experience are designed, in Dion’s plan, to more than offset increased consumer costs, where they occur. — Garth
As for a carbon tax-induced increase in fuel costs, I am told the estimated increase is between a half-cent and two cents per litre as an eventual pass-through by producers. The income tax cuts everyone will experience are designed, in Dion’s plan, to more than offset increased consumer costs, where they occur. — Garth
Ah, finally some clarity. So an increase is expected, but as stated here (and indirectly by McTeague) it is expected to be a relatively small/manageable increase. I await confirmation in the details to be released, but that is at least the start of an answer.
There is still the trickle effect as the increases flow outward to pretty much all consumer products and services. However, bigger minds than mine will have to go through the economic impact and distill it into concrete terms for me. I only hope that this will be available to the electorate.
As for me, in spite of my personal belief that my net adjustment will be negative (i.e. I will have to pay more, much more, than I will recoup in income tax relief), I am actually willing to consider it if it indeed means making a difference – this is also the lacking details I await.
Part of my worry is that we are asked to adjust, but to what?? We can’t simply “use less” as this means “doing less, and thus earning less”. That just passes the competitive nature to other companies and countries. So what would the adjustment be that would allow me to make “wiser” choices whil maintaining economic growth.
The simple view of oil being the problem distills readily into concerns on gasoline. However, in Ontario if I switch to use of electric energy we still pay the price with the presumed equally “bad” coal/carbon tax. BioDiesel? I have a flex-fuel vehicle with nothing but gasoline available to fill it with – where and when is the infrastructure for alternatives going to arise.
That is but a sample. We need a real commitment to the development of alternatives. Is this part of the green plan? How will it be costed?
C. B. Innes, thanks so much for your answers. …
By Ford on 06.08.08 5:07 pm
Ditto. It is nice to see that a healthy and helpful exchange of ideas is still possible in this new-age partisan world.
Wrong. The excise tax does not increase if the price of gas goes up. As for a carbon tax-induced increase in fuel costs, I am told the estimated increase is between a half-cent and two cents per litre as an eventual pass-through by producers. The income tax cuts everyone will experience are designed, in Dion’s plan, to more than offset increased consumer costs, where they occur. — Garth
………………………………
Sounds good Garth …. but if there is only a half to 2 cents increase on the price of gasoline, where will the inducement come from to lower gasoline consumption?? Will Dion depend on rising crude oil prices to dampen gasoline usage … but what if the crude oil bubble collapses and gas prices go down??
I hope Dion’s Green Plan will clearly explain how it will motivate average Canadians to drive less and heat less.
Any hint of when Dion’s new Green Plan will be revealed ..??!!!
Ha,Ha,Ha, Lieberals sit on their hands, have no money except for that which is stolen, too gutless to go to the polls.
Poor, poor pathetic Lieberals.
Cry me a river. HAHAHAHAHA!
Thanks for adding so much to the debate, Bruce. — Garth
By Bruce on 06.08.08 5:04 pm
Bruce has his tin-foil pith helmet on too tight .
Don’t worry Bruce the Aliens will return soon and remove the anal probe .
The entrance . . .
****************************************
Practical gifts
To all my friends who, in 2006 and 2007 sent me best ‘wishes’, chain letters, ‘angel’ letters or other promises of good luck if I forwarded something,
NONE OF THAT SHIT WORKED!
For 2008, could you please just send:
Money, wine, chocolate, movie tickets,
gasoline vouchers and / or airline tickets instead?
Thank you!
****************************************
. . . to make a few people rich . . .
William Dahl, 11:07 am
Hello William.
The video is straightshooter, giving reasons for what is going on — an awful lot of things, all happening throughout the world less than a couple of months apart, all “designed” to keep us off guard and for one reason and one reason only . . . to make a few people rich.
That is the only reason, and it is working, as more and more folk are becoming overwhelmed with life’s constant changes and having to cope with them.
All price increases, from utilities, food, fuel, combined with fiscal meltdowns, declining house prices, the unnecessary aggressiveness of govt.’s in power who use fear-mongering tactics, threats to their citizens, etc., are guaranteed to throw the average person’s psyche completely out of kilter.
As there is ‘nowt folk can do about that, it stands to reason that it’s not something worth being concerned with, although it does take an awful lot mental effort.
What IS worth being concerned with is to turn one’s attention to what is necessary, as you said, to live a lot more simply now.
The Greedy Generation, consisting of people who love maxing out theirs (and others’) credit cards and having The Life of Riley, but haven’t got the foggiest of how to look after themselves, are the ones who will suffer in the short- and long-term.
One only has to look at the staff in hospitals, care homes, how many street children there are — it is not a pretty world anymore; it’s getting a damned side uglier every day.
Surely, high energy using manufacturers will also be hit hard by the carbon tax. My question was more directed to the competitiveness of these companies.
Your impression of the current government (and their friends running the US government) are in line with my thoughts.
By Ford on 06.08.08 5:07 pm
This is an interesting question. Canada has sold its competitive advantage in energy (some would argue has given it away).
If we brought in a carbon tax, would we be able to put that tax on exports given the terms of NAFTA? Would we have to sell energy to the U.S. and other trading partners cheaper than we could sell it to Canadian energy consumers? If we could not the cost verses the benefit of a carbon tax would be questionable.
Quebec sells its and Labrador’s hydropower to the U.S. while other Canadian jurisdictions have been forced to use fossil fuels. We have already allowed free market ideology to destroy our competitive advantage. There would have to be a major re-thinking of the philosophy which I believe needs to be done.
Thanks for adding so much to the debate, Bruce. — Garth
By Bruce on 06.08.08 5:04 pm
Well considering your contribution to the debate is, “don’t listen to the Conservatives, trust us and take our word for it, we’ll tell you later.”
This just proves how dumb you Liberals are. You leaked out a test balloon of a carbon tax. Then refuse to release any details. By doing this you allowed the Conservatives to frame the debate. Now instead of just explaining your plan, you have to try and “debunk” what the Conservatives have said. You’re following instead of leading.
Had you released your details first, it would be the Conservatives in the position of trying to debunk you. It just proves that, tactically, the Conservatives are far smarter than the Liberals.
Like the ad campaign or not. It will be effective. And the Liberals will be forced to play catch up.
Lots of details in my post today. Enjoy. — Garth
Catherine: you mean the emission plan that rips off consumers and benefits those stations enrolled in the government plan??
Isn;t Flaherty demanding that Ontario have a harmonized sales tax?
Right now the only tax I pay on heating fuel is GST not PST. Why is Flaherty promoting upping the tax we pay on heating our homes??
To-day something has to be done to help Canadians other than spending money on super sillious attack adds against Dion. I am in the process of looking for a good used car and it is depressing because I have to choose gas mileage against comfort and heart warming appeal. All this leaves one to wonder what the future will bring, then to read of yet another negative attack run by the Stephen Harper & Co rather than contributing to the solution process.
Another GD nail in the coffins of Canadian farmers. WTF!
I’m done. Don’t call me.
Leasa
By Leasa on 06.08.08 10:53 am
Did you hear that all McDonald’s across Canada have stopped using tomatoes because of yet another salmonella scare from the U.S / Mexico?
http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1060749.html
Until recently, I had never heard of such things. What are they doing, spreading liquid manure right on the produce as it grows?
You are correct Garth. The excise tax does not increase if the price per litre of gas goes up. What about the GST on the price per litre Garth. If the price per litre of gasoline goes up so does the GST tax the government of the day collects.
http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2866
So if I am debating this carbon tax amongst friends and family, I am safe to say that under the Liberal Carbon Tax proposal, the price per litre of gas will go up???
I answered that. — Garth
I think there are an enormous number of issues to be resolved before a carbon tax could/would be successfully implemented and until we see what the plan is and how the various issues have been resolved there’s not much of substance to the plan. This isn’t necessarily an attack on the Libs, rather a comment that there’s a lot of details Canadians should be demanding before taking a position it one way or another. The devil really is in the details.
Still sounds like more VooDoo economics to me. Non! Nyet! NO! No more ‘Trickle down economics!’
Write laws to seriously reduce pollution by criminal penalties on the major polluters.
Like Ontario Hydro? — Garth
I think the “details” folks have in mind is more along the lines of an official Liberal plan and not Garth’s opinion on what the plan might do.
Consider:
C.B. asked how the plan would provide “extra benefits” for certain groups such as farmers, “country dwellers” (what the hell does that even mean?) and so on.
So far there’s been no effort to explain how the idea would work.
These are the details people expect to see.
So far
And you will. Patience. — Garth
By Steve(Coverall Guy) on 06.08.08 6:33 pm
Gas has gone up 44% since the beginning of the year without any energy plan by the CPC….so to think the carbon tax will raise it a couple of pennies makes that argument look ridiculous.
By Greg on 06.08.08 6:31 pm
Which brings to mind. Canada can make a REAL difference by refusing to import goods from countries that do NOT meet our standards, in any manner! Oooooooo that would BIG Cajones in Oddawahahaha!
Lots of details in my post today. Enjoy. — Garth
By Reid on 06.08.08 6:14 pm
Too funny Garth. Because just a few posts lower you prove my point.
So far there’s been no effort to explain how the idea would work.
These are the details people expect to see.
So far
And you will. Patience. — Garth
By John L on 06.08.08 6:50 pm
Keep playing catch up Garth. You guys are toast.
Ha,Ha,Ha, Lieberals sit on their hands, have no money except for that which is stolen, too gutless to go to the polls.
Poor, poor pathetic Lieberals.
Cry me a river. HAHAHAHAHA!
Thanks for adding so much to the debate, Bruce. — Garth
By Bruce on
——————
Sounds like Rick McNutty found his way over here from the G&M blogs
Houston we have a problem – in Canada – Harper is supporting and beholding to the Texas oil guys – the G.W. Bush/Cheney Houston gang.
Harper is controlled by Bush, Cheney and Big Oil.
Harper is not a leader – he’s a puppet on the strings of big oil/Bush and Cheney. They own him.
A Freudian slip? Stephen Harper uses a talking oil slick to put forth his and Big Oil’s non-plan!
The Harper Conservatives are so embarrassing! Worse, they’re stupid. Using other people’s money to do really stupid things with. Just another day in Harperville.
Gas has gone up 44% since the beginning of the year without any energy plan by the CPC….so to think the carbon tax will raise it a couple of pennies makes that argument look ridiculous.
By wjp on 06.08.08 6:51 pm
Actually gas has gone down 2% everytime you fill up at the pump no matter what you are paying day to day due to the 2% Gst cut WJP. This is not a partisan attack, just trying to get the facts. Now if you think that a Canadian Government energy plan, or not, has anything to do with gas being up 44% this year alone, you need to give your head a shake. GAS PRICES WILL GO UP AS A RESULT OF A LIBERAL CARBON TAX.
The burning question will be: Is Dion’s tax reduction enough to compensate for rising world oil prices … and if oil prices collapse, will Dion readjust the Carbon Tax downwards, or is it always there.
….
By Harry S on 06.08.08 5:01 pm
Harry, I don’t know where you and your moron friends get your information, but the carbon tax isn’t supposed to help with gas prices. Gas prices are market driven, and unless the government fixes the price of oil in this country, the prices will be dictated by the market.
The goal of Dion’s plan is to proved revenue for a much needed research and development program to reduce our dependency on oil through innovative technologies, without putting undue burden on the Canadian taxpayers. Of course the devil is in the details, but on the surface it is a plan that makes sense and is miles above the do nothing policies of the current government.
Gath Dion was againts a carbon tax said it was not a good policy.
Now he says it’s great.. explain this flip flop please.
SLG says
“Houston we have a problem – in Canada – Harper is supporting and beholding to the Texas oil guys – the G.W. Bush/Cheney Houston gang.
Harper is controlled by Bush, Cheney and Big Oil.
Harper is not a leader – he’s a puppet on the strings of big oil/Bush and Cheney. They own him.”
Ha,ha,ha,ha, oh man where can I get a gulp of the far left koool aid.
Let me guess and Harper was going to put s9oliders in are strees.. with guns…. I am not making this up..
you far left loons are great.
And yes I know I am neo-con bush loving big oil insert other moron talking points blah,blah,blah. lol
If you can’t/won’t share the details supporting the claims you make you should probably not make them.
You, and the Liberals, have been telling us of your carbon tax “plan” for some time now. How much “patience” do you expect the citizens to have while you try and figure out what the plan is?
By Greg on 06.08.08 6:31 pm
Greg, Mexico does not have ANY food safety standards in place and we the buyers have no way to enforce or change it to meet our strict food safety standards. My next inspection is June 17, if I don’t pass…I don’t ship. In Mexico, India, Guatemala etc. etc. they can literally shit in the water they use to cool and clean the product in. The conglomerates source product from all these countries and many end up labelled ‘product of Canada’, Imported by blah, blah’ or product of the U.S.
That’s the truth. Forced labour with no social safety nets equal huge profits for a few who have very powerful lobby groups employed to lobby people like our government & the U.S. government. That is why Canada’s agriculture industry is on life support. Leasa
Holy CRAP, I mention the possibility of $8.00 lettuce and look what happens!
http://amahenry.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/vegetable.jpg By Captain George on 06.08.08 9:49 am
Tell corporal stevie harper to get off his butt with diesel fuel . Same price as high octane gas ?
Excuses galour won’t solve the need for new refineries and 20 cents /litre extra for his stupidity . Thats why politicians are considered ignorant NO DEEDS ALL LIP .
What about low-income families? And university students? They’re still making the same amounts of money, but now have to pay more for everything.
You Liberals are idiots, if you had any cajones you would go to the polls right now.
Garth, if you carbon tax the big emitters, how are you going to prevent them from passing that cost along to the consumer?
How are the Liberals going to prevent the price of virtually everything going up?
If your answer is price controls you should go join Chavez.
I have wondered since this came up why it was labeled something smarter than a TAX because people hate taxes. Calling it a Carbon Excess Emitters Penalty at the very least would have made a lot better, but seriously, marketing department.
I’m curious to see if there’s going to be anything other than the lame “do nothing” response to this. This constant “no response, just hid behind the couch until mom comes home” approach is beyond me. It takes a LOT to make Jack Layton look like a reasonable guy to consider voting for, and he wants to tax my income out of existence.
Fat boy Jason Kenney was all over the news tonight .
Beaking off about how this was nothing more than a huge, Liberal designed, cash grab .
Where in the hell are the Liberal public relations people ?
Garth, you are a coward for deleting my question, so I will ask it again.
How are the Liberals going to prevent the big emitters, who would be subject to this carbon tax, from passing the cost along to consumers?
Again, if you say price controls you may as well go join the Chavez gang down in Venezuela.
I did not delete your question, so apologize for calling me a coward. The post I wrote, if you read it, clearly says we can expect costs to be passed under Dion’s plan, which is why income taxes would be cut. — Garth
Now you put it up, answer?
Sounds like Rick McNutty found his way over here from the G&M blogs
By Randy on 06.08.08 7:16 pm
No doubt.
The con ads are getting a thrashing over there with the majority thinking the ads are stupid and a desperate attempt to change the channel from the traitorous activities recently uncovered that the Harper Conservatives openly and accountably don’t want Canadians to know about.
McNutty and his HaHa’s, like the Con Oil ads, are going over like a spider on a birthday cake. No wonder he left there to come here!
Only 2 cents per liter. And the gun registry was only going to cost 2 million. Sorry, but pretty skeptical. If taxing is the solution to over use, its going to take more than a cent or two.
Kerry
Gas already has a federal excise tax on it which is equivalent to a carbon tax twice as high as Dion is contemplating. And you didn’t even know it, right? Don’t fall for the fearmongering. — Garth
. . . Why is Flaherty promoting upping the tax we pay on heating our homes??
Judy, 6:17 pm
Remember the link I posted from yesterday’s UK Daily Mirror, which stated that home heating costs were going up around 5%, adding further to the year-upon-year increases they get?
Report said that if seniors couldn’t afford the increase, then tough. If it turns out to be a much-colder than average winter, this is when people will feel the pinch.
It could be that dimdum needs more more money — like dubya to fund these illegal wars in Iraq and Af’stan — so CRAP hits folk with a double whammy.
A deliberate cull of people is now well underway. Soldiers — such as the one who died today today, from the Okanagan who fell down a well at night — plus folk who die of “natural causes” (they can’t afford to keep warm) are conveniently leaving.
Somewhat akin to what The Third Reich started in Nazi Germany, hoping the Aryan Nation would reign supreme.
I expect more of the people we send down to Ottawa to run the place.
Fortunately I and many others expect nothing from this crowd of asses with ten gallon hats covering ten cent
heads .
We have known all along how extreme and stupid they were .
However I think the Liberals have made a huge tactical error in letting out the carbon plan in dribs and drabs .
Better to stun the nation all at once than to use a half charged Taser of teasers .
This should have been announced with the entire team standing shoulder to shoulder with Mr. Dion .
An opportunity wasted .
We’ll see how it goes .
Bruce: And what is preventing the big emitters from passing the cost of not meeting Harpers “tough” new targets along to consumers????
Of course I know there is an excise tax, find me someone who doesn’t. My point Garth was that any government(not just yours) that tells me me its going to cost me X number of dollars for a program usually means I can double, triple, ten fold that number.
And the last thing I believe is something that any party tells me, esp fearmongering from any party. Do I believe lettuce is going to cost 8.00$, hardly. Everything that I hear from the Libs, Cons, Greens, NDs, I take with a grain of salt, and await the details and find my way through the double speak.
No matter how you sell a carbon pricing platform, the trickle down effect is going to hurt every consumer of heat, transportation, electricty, and consumeables. I’d like to see incentives for lowering our use of NECESSITIES, not the stick. The only thing a stick does is hurt those you hit.
Kerry
A brilliant way for the Liberals to discourage fearmongering would be to release the details of their plan immediately so folks can determine that there’s nothing to fear. What’s the holdup?
My mistake — gas bills in the UK are going up 40%.
As well, SPAM and other canned goods are flying off shelves in the US.
http://tinyurl.com/58ftkn
*******************************************
Report gives a slightly clearer explanation of the NWO.
Note the second or third para.: “. . . Two years ago, a press release sent out on the date of the opening session in 2006 (held in Ottawa, Canada), . . .
http://tinyurl.com/6nhxvn
Garth, I don’t trust you or the Liberals and no I won’t apologize for calling you a coward. You idiots sit on your hands, you’re all a bad joke.
Remember Bre-x Garth, anything to apologize for there, eh Garthy Boy?
No. Bye. — Garth
Wrong. The excise tax does not increase if the price of gas goes up. As for a carbon tax-induced increase in fuel costs, I am told the estimated increase is between a half-cent and two cents per litre as an eventual pass-through by producers. The income tax cuts everyone will experience are designed, in Dion’s plan, to more than offset increased consumer costs, where they occur. — Garth
By Steve(Coverall Guy) on 06.08.08 5:12 pm
So – it’s 2 cents per litre, and 2 cents per loaf of bread, and 2 cents for litre of milk, and 2 cents… and 2 cents… and 2 cents…. and 2 cents… and 2 cents…
So basically, the working stiff or senior is going to get hosed!
Garth, do you honestly think that someone who is making 155,000$ per year is going to care if his overall costs increase (say at least 100$ per month) when he will raking in income tax cuts?
But to others earning a lot less than those of MPs will care!
But hey, for you suzukite zeolots what do you care – you will live comfortably.
That’s the truth. Forced labour with no social safety nets equal huge profits for a few who have very powerful lobby groups employed to lobby people like our government & the U.S. government. That is why Canada’s agriculture industry is on life support. Leasa
By Leasa on 06.08.08 7:47 pm
Mono-culturs also has a lot to do with why farms are failing .
Crop rotation makes perfect sense .
The land is addicted to a chemical soup that makes its way into the food chain .
Well I returned to Canada two months ago after 7 months away and found absolutely nothing different politically. However everything is more expensive than before I left. Somebody is asleep at the switch, all we seem to have in parliament is opposition parties. Where is the governing party, all they seem to do is oppose the opposition, they are supposed to lead. My own solution is I am not buying a car and living near to my employment, I will cycle and use public transit. For holidays I will rent a vehicle. I am sure there will be others doing the same
To give a separate view on the jump in oil, read further (comments courtesy whatreallyhappened.com).
“The reason for the one-day jolt was Israel’s announcement of their intent to bomb Iran’s reactors.
“As a side note, we have been down this road before. Israel bombed Iraq’s reactor complex under the justification that Iraq was building nuclear weapons underneath it (the way Israel is known to do under Dimona).
“But following the invasion and conquest of Iraq (based on a lie that Saddam had nuclear weapons) the ruins of the Iraqi reactor proved it was just a power station.
“No material or tools consistent with Israel’s claim of a weapons factory were ever found.
“Yet the US Government wants to go along with Israel’s same stupid claims about Iran.”
http://tinyurl.com/435jod
P.S.: Anyone remember Hans Blix? Cdn. troops are fighting for what and whom? Not too difficult to guess.
So…
The Liberals would cancel the existing federal excise tax on gasoline?
Senior Liberal MPs are urging Dion to pull the plug on the Harper government this week with an election date in July.
Dion says no because he wants to ’sell’ his Green Plan to Canadians this summer with a cross-country tour.
Sounds like most in the Liberal caucus don’t want Dion to promote his Green Plan, and instead just go into an election.
Is it because the wiser heads in the Liberal caucus do not want to be associated with and having to explain a Carbon Tax Green Plan to their constituents ..??!!!
That is desperate!
And we always liked cabbage patch dolls!
“Companies that pump out crap into the environment, specifically those gases that cause global warming, would have to pay for doing so – or stop doing it.”
…Or they could pack up and move to some third world country with no carbon taxes, leaving us with no carbon output, and no economic output either.
From what I’m reading here not to many posters believe Dion’s fairy tale, guess we’ve been lied to too many times,this is a horror story and it’s not liked.
What about the Conservatives, what are they proposing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Shouldn’t they be presenting an alternative instead of attacking an amorphous concept like carbon tax being proposed by the Liberals? How about if the carbon tax is indeed practical, doable and beneficial to the Canadians, what is the alternative being proposed by the Conservatives? Nada, zilch, nothing. If their way to govern is to attack instead of propose a new idea, they are going to go down with Bush on November 8.
a giant raddish?
No a turnip yes.
(the’re hard as a rock)
Let’s talk about this, and decide together if it’s the right approach. Let’s demand a debate, not a fight.
posted by Garth Turner
Tommy Douglas who presently reigns as our greatest Canadian used the fable of “mouseland” on many occasions. When he introduced the IDEA of health care for every citizen, he started a vicious fight against those who opposed the plan. We the citizens knew that his plan would cost in the form of taxes but he was a LEADER who fought tooth and nail because he believed it was the right thing to do. In the end with the help of Pearson, his IDEA became a legacy that today continues to define us as Canadians. IN my books a true leader is a fighter not a consummate smear artist.
It’s the story of a place called Mouseland. Mouseland was a place where all the little mice lived and played, were born and died. And they lived much the same as you and I do.
They even had a Parliament. And every four years they had an election. Used to walk to the polls and cast their ballots. Some of them even got a ride to the polls. And got a ride for the next four years afterwards too. Just like you and me. And every time on election day all the little mice used to go to the ballot box and they used to elect a government. A government made up of big, fat, black cats.
Now if you think it strange that mice should elect a government made up of cats, you just look at the history of Canada for last 90 years and maybe you’ll see that they weren’t any stupider than we are.
Now I’m not saying anything against the cats. They were nice fellows. They conducted their government with dignity. They passed good laws–that is, laws that were good for cats. But the laws that were good for cats weren’t very good for mice. One of the laws said that mouseholes had to be big enough so a cat could get his paw in. Another law said that mice could only travel at certain speeds–so that a cat could get his breakfast without too much effort.
All the laws were good laws. For cats. But, oh, they were hard on the mice. And life was getting harder and harder. And when the mice couldn’t put up with it any more, they decided something had to be done about it. So they went en masse to the polls. They voted the black cats out. They put in the white cats.
Now the white cats had put up a terrific campaign. They said: “All that Mouseland needs is more vision.” They said:”The trouble with Mouseland is those round mouseholes we got. If you put us in we’ll establish square mouseholes.” And they did. And the square mouseholes were twice as big as the round mouseholes, and now the cat could get both his paws in. And life was tougher than ever. And when they couldn’t take that anymore, they voted the white cats out and put the black ones in again. Then they went back to the white cats. Then to the black cats. They even tried half black cats and half white cats. And they called that coalition. They even got one government made up of cats with spots on them: they were cats that tried to make a noise like a mouse but ate like a cat.
You see, my friends, the trouble wasn’t with the colour of the cat. The trouble was that they were cats. And because they were cats, they naturally looked after cats instead of mice.
Presently there came along one little mouse who had an idea. My friends, watch out for the little fellow with an idea. And he said to the other mice, “Look fellows, why do we keep on electing a government made up of cats? Why don’t we elect a government made up of mice?” “Oh,” they said, “he’s a Bolshevik. Lock him up!”
So they put him in jail.
But I want to remind you: that you can lock up a mouse or a man but you can’t lock up an idea.
Gas already has a federal excise tax on it which is equivalent to a carbon tax twice as high as Dion is contemplating. And you didn’t even know it, right? Don’t fall for the fearmongering. – Garth
………………………………..
Garth … the federal excise tax on $1.35/L gasoline is 10¢/L .. which is 8% of the price of the gasoline.
Are you telling us that Dion’s Carbon Tax will be half that or 4% on all other carbon-based products … or will it be 5¢/equivalent litre ..??!!!
Do you know when Dion will finally release his Green Plan and if so can you tell us in which week of June it will be available .. after all you are on the Priorities and Planning Committee so you should know ..??!!!
Glo-bull Warming is a scam, drink more kool-aid you leftards.
“Companies that pump out crap into the environment, specifically those gases that cause global warming, would have to pay for doing so – or stop doing it.”
…Or they could pack up and move to some third world country with no carbon taxes, leaving us with no carbon output, and no economic output either.
By Paully on 06.08.08 9:56 pm
The problem for them is that they can’t take our energy resources with them. It would be in their best interests to adapt.
Tommy Douglas who presently reigns as our greatest Canadian used the fable of “mouseland” on many occasions. When he introduced the IDEA of health care for every citizen, he started a vicious fight against those who opposed the plan. We the citizens knew that his plan would cost in the form of taxes but he was a LEADER who fought tooth and nail because he believed it was the right thing to do. In the end with the help of Pearson, his IDEA became a legacy that today continues to define us as Canadians. IN my books a true leader is a fighter not a consummate smear artist.
By Ron p on 06.08.08 10:23 pm
If you Liberals would be fair in your arguments you might actually do better when it comes to swing voters. By ignoring the role of John Diefenbaker and the Progressive Conservatives on the health issue you simply anger those who are aware of your tendency to rewrite history as “spin” rather than “fact.”
Glo-bull Warming is a scam, drink more kool-aid you leftards.
BY WAYNE ON 06.08.08 10:37 PM
Wayne,
Your ignorant words are show us all exactly what is wrong with your Conservative Party. Steve Harper has attracted people like you, who are vandals, which is why none of you will ever have the respect of Canadians
Don’t get sidetracked boys and girls
Focus on the Conservative government and the deteriorating economy.
REPEAT AGAIN AND STAY ON MESSAGE
Focus on the Conservative government and the deteriorating economy.
From what I understand, Canada produces an estimated 2% of the world’s greenhouse gases. 2%! For this, we’re supposed to create a massive tax-shifting, industry-killing money-sucking bureaucracy that will ultimately fall onto the backs of taxpayers in the form of higher prices? Does anyone really believe higher prices for everything will be offset by lower taxes? Don’t insult our intelligence.
What pray tell will a Liberal Carbon Tax achieve?? We already have a de facto carbon tax.
Gas prices have risen about 45 cents a litre, or $2.00 a gallon since Dion was elected leader of the Libs and the media put global warming/climate change on the front burner for him.
Result?? Severe economic hardship on lower and middle class. Factories being shut down, workers losing their jobs.
Dion’s solution?? Raise the price even higher, with a carbon tax ..!!!
Liberal Carbon Tax is not about saving the environment and never was … it’s only to tax Canadians Billion$$$ to buy Kyoto Carbon Credits from China to mitigate the Liberal-created 32% GHG excess over 10 years of intentional neglect.
Man accounts for 3% of atmospheric C02. Canada accounts for 2% of the 3% or 0.06% of atmospheric C02.
If we did not burn another drop of gas or oil in Canada, there would be a reduction of atmospheric C02 of one fifth of one part per million. Almost zero … and Dion wants to commit us to reducing the 32% excess GHGs by 2012 to meet our Kyoto commitments?? Obviously we are dealing with a Liberal ‘hidden agenda’..!!!
Conservatives are running their ads as the MSM has simply abandoned any desire to criticize Liberal Carbon Tax policy … and that is the true travesty within our democracy ..!!!
The post I wrote, if you read it, clearly says we can expect costs to be passed under Dion’s plan, which is why income taxes would be cut. — Garth
So in other words, the more industry pollutes, the more income tax we save? Woo hoo sign me up for this climate change/global warming preventing plan.
on the health issue …
BY C. B. INNES ON 06.08.08 10:45 PM
Hi C. B. Innes,
A fun fact is that a relative of mine wrote the Saskatchewan plan for Tommy Douglas. The evolution of what we have today has had participation from most governments to some extent, but of course it was the Pearson government who introduced the Medical Care Act which was passed in 1966.
I’m glad the Conservative Trolls make their ignorant comments here. It shows in writing what the Conservative Party is all about, who supports the insanity of Harper, and it gives everyone the concrete proof of these new Conservative’s non-stop tactics of smearing and lying.
Glo-bull Warming is a scam, drink more kool-aid you leftards.
By wayne on 06.08.08 10:37 pm
Was there a mass breakout from the retard factory ?
Glo-bull Warming is a scam, drink more kool-aid you leftards.
By wayne on 06.08.08 10:37 pm
….ah, we don’t drink cheap kool-aid with its sugar and additives….we drink fresh juices, nice wines and coffee that tastes like coffee without the phony-cream additive of Timmy’s.
You CPC’s keep drinking the blue kool-aid – it’ll rot your teeth.
Isn’t it interesting that the Harper Tax Trick commercial has to try to repeatedly point the finger at Dion, just so his sheep will learn his lie well?
Mr. Stephen Harper,
You really think Canadians are complete morons. You disgust me. You disgust my family. Mr. Harper, you are in bed with big oil and big business. Now everyone knows it. Everything you do is for them. Then you turn around and try to claim that you do it for the little guy. Harper, you are a big fat liar.
This exact tax-shifting idea was proposed over 10 years ago by the green party…give credit where credit is due.
Harper’s Negative Ad Campaign may actually help Canadians confirm that the “tricks” are played by Harper.
Harper has a Gas Station Pump talking on his behalf !!!!!!!!!!!
The Gas Pump represents Big Oil. So it’s the Big Oil Company telling us we’re being tricked. The same ones who are killing us at the pumps. And now they’re speaking on behalf of Harper. Wow. Harper really is loony. Harper thinks Canadians are going to listen to Big Oil and Gas Companies? Boy these Conservatives are dumb.
The new ads are like free advertising for the Liberals, because people will now take a more understanding look at Dion’s plan, to decrease personal income taxes for all Canadians… a carbon-funded tax break.
Forgot about this form of transportation.
Aloha Airlines went under a couple of months ago, and a few others may bite the big one as well.
http://tinyurl.com/6477cw
*******************************************
Only need to read the first line to see where we are all ultimately headed.
http://tinyurl.com/6h2tqk
By Steve(Coverall Guy) on 06.08.08 7:32 pm
Stop deluding yourself. There was no 2% reduction anywhere. That gst cut was gobbled up by the retailers as they jacked up prices with the gst being lower.
Add that to the amateur economics of Harpo and his Flim Flam and we are screwed royally.
And don’t try and tell me that you are saving any money or taxes under this CRAP government.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/series/primeministers/stories/jd-20020119.html
John Diefenbaker’s accomplishments and he was not a Harpo Reform/Crapper but a Progressive Conservative.
Houston we have a problem – in Canada – Harper is supporting and beholding to the Texas oil guys – the G.W. Bush/Cheney Houston gang.
Harper is controlled by Bush, Cheney and Big Oil.
Harper is not a leader – he’s a puppet on the strings of big oil/Bush and Cheney. They own him.
By slg on 06.08.08 7:17 pm
So stop buying fuel. Stop buying cars. Stop buying electronics with plastic casings. Stop buying PVC stuffs. Stop buying groceries unless they are grown/made by your next neighbours (of course within walking distance).
You know slug, if you buy strawberries in the winter – someone has to truck them to your area. That truck uses “big oil” fuel. You then are the problem! Sheesh – your Liberal talking points are sooooo passe!
What about the Conservatives, what are they proposing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions? Shouldn’t they be presenting an alternative instead of attacking an amorphous concept like carbon tax being proposed by the Liberals? How about if the carbon tax is indeed practical, doable and beneficial to the Canadians, what is the alternative being proposed by the Conservatives? Nada, zilch, nothing. If their way to govern is to attack instead of propose a new idea, they are going to go down with Bush on November 8.
By Roberto Rembrado on 06.08.08 10:02 pm
First off, fool, the USA elections are November 4th.
Second off. Apparently people voted for “change” 2 years ago and put the Democratics in the Legislature as the majority. Did the Democratic Legislature come up with something to help the American people? Nope!!!!
Seems people keep forgetting this main fact.
Do you know when Dion will finally release his Green Plan and if so can you tell us in which week of June it will be available .. after all you are on the Priorities and Planning Committee so you should know ..??!!!
By Harry S on 06.08.08 10:32 pm
You just can’t seem to get an answer Harry, can you….maybe it’s the manner in which you ask your questions. You should be more specific and ask the minute, hour and exact date…or demand an answer immediately. Maybe you are being just too nice…LMAO….
But to others earning a lot less than those of MPs will care!
But hey, for you suzukite zeolots what do you care – you will live comfortably.
By Catherine on 06.08.08 9:19 pm
Well my gas bill for my car has gone up 44% since the beginning of the year and my food bill by 10%, we haven’t bought anything different than we normally do, my R.E. taxes are up 5% and expected to jump to 7% this year….and the CPC has done jack about these prices rises…and is is a lot more than the 2c on each item you have mentioned. This and we have no environment plan to speak of from the CPC….
I’d like to see incentives for lowering our use of NECESSITIES, not the stick. The only thing a stick does is hurt those you hit.
Kerry
By Kerry Busse on 06.08.08 9:12 pm
Buy cat food for your family, that would decrease the cost of necessities?
Come on, decreasing consumption on necessities would only cripple the poor and elderly, opps sorry, that is the CPP plan is it?
What about low-income families? And university students? They’re still making the same amounts of money, but now have to pay more for everything.
By Andrew C on 06.08.08 7:57 pm
Those people don’t matter to the CPC.
Profit margins in the petroleum and finance sectors are around 20% of sales (using 2006 data, the most recent annual data available). Profit margins in the rest of the Canadian economy average about 6% of sales.
On a per-employee basis, the petroleum industry generates a stunning $300,000 worth of profits per worker per year. (If that little factoid isn’t enough to turn everyone into a Marxist, I don’t know what will!) The financial sector, in contrast, produces a mere $100,000 in profit per employee per year. The mundane rest of the economy generates an average of only $10,000 per employee — barely enough to qualify as “exploitation”.
http://www.progressive-economics.ca/2008/0…already-winners/
These are 2006 stats were oil averaged $ 62.00 a barrel now oil for this year is going to end up ( mark my words) averaging $138.00. so big oil will be making close to a million dollars profit per employee per year
Is any one keeping a list of the stations were there being played for I would like to know
By Bill-Muskoka on 06.08.08 7:01 pm
What’s the point of having standards if they can be circumvented by simply producing the product elsewhere? Or importing bulk product and packaging it here? (Product of Canada)
Given the history of serious issues with foodstuffs in recent years, buying things that are labeled Imported by, or Prepared for etc. give me cause for concern. Having come to understand that Product of Canada doesn’t mean the product was produced here, start to finish, is further cause for concern.
Having raised beef cattle in this country I know that commercial production methods of meat products grown here have serious issues. I shudder to think what may be allowed in countries where there are few or no controls.
Is any one keepimg a record of the stations that there being played i would like the list
Before free trade we used to import 10%of the food we consume now we import 40%
Something is wrong with this picture.
From what I understand, Canada produces an estimated 2% of the world’s greenhouse gases. 2%! For this, we’re supposed to create a massive tax-shifting, industry-killing money-sucking bureaucracy that will ultimately fall onto the backs of taxpayers in the form of higher prices? Does anyone really believe higher prices for everything will be offset by lower taxes? Don’t insult our intelligence.
By RM on 06.08.08 11:03 pm
Like all humans over time we have to adapt to the new realities both economically and environmentally. We need to develop an economy based on sustainability. It takes people who see the bigger picture to lead that adaptation. Whether the Liberals have come up with the necessary kind of integrated plan is unclear at this point but at least they are moving forward.
The new Conservatives, meanwhile, are too focused on their silly political strategies and their corporate cronies to see that they are being left behind.
O Canada doesn’t mean what it used to.
That is why Canada’s agriculture industry is on life support. Leasa
By Leasa on 06.08.08 7:47 pm
That’s a good way of putting it.
Here’s another,
“When people ask me what we do for a living I tell them we sell Trucks so we can afford to Farm”.
There has been a two pronged assault for many years now, and I could write at length about it, but no one listens anyway.
I can picture Stephen Harper as a gas pump. He’s blocky enough for it, and where his face is I can see a screen advertising Big Oil and perhaps running TSX oil graphs climbin ever upward. One arm can be the lever taking wads of cash from Canadians, while the other arm is the pump, dribbling out drops of gas while the screen goes wild with $ figures.
There’s a truth ad right there.
Glo-bull Warming is a scam, drink more kool-aid you leftards.BY WAYNE ON 06.08.08 10:37 PM
Read more facts…
“Climate change will exacerbate many current climate risks.” That’s one conclusion of a comprehensive federal government study of how Canada must adapt to climate change, entitled “From Impacts to Adaptation: Canada in a Changing Climate 2007.”
“Yet the Harper government is doing next to nothing about climate-change adaptation measures, so the study was given minimal publicity when published in March. You can download it here. “tinyurl.com/2uhqa2
The economy is going into the tank. The Conservatives are out of gas with no where to go. They continue to count on people being poorly informed. This is another example of it. Give them time and they will implode, just as they always have in the past.
Does anyone really believe higher prices for everything will be offset by lower taxes? Don’t insult our intelligence.
By RM on 06.08.08 11:03 pm
No it would be much better to have our grandchildren coughing and slowly poisoned to death? Insult your intelligence….isn’t that an oxymoron?
By Ron p on 06.08.08 10:23 pm
Thanks for the excellent story. It has travelled farther than you would guess.
Don’t insult our intelligence.
By RM on 06.08.08 11:03 pm
No need to RM. Your doing a grest job all my yourself.
Regards from Manitoba
Hey, don’t you worry your widdle heads about Glo-BULL warming. I would, however, suggest you worry, or at least have some concern, for the effects WHERE YOU LIVE!
Garth,
The conservatives have no creative policy ideas so the only thing they can do is, throw dirt.
My message to the prime minster through you is:
1) grow up, enough with the childish attack ads.
2) resign and let Emerson take over as PM.
Daryn
WJP
I think we are on the same page here. I said using the stick of taxes for necessities only HURTS people. Incentives better than taxes.
Kerry
My ‘incentive’ still remains ‘Pollute as an industry…go to prison!’
Suncor? — Garth
By ignoring the role of John Diefenbaker and the Progressive Conservatives on the health issue you simply anger those who are aware of your tendency to rewrite history
as “spin” rather than “fact.”
The Royal Commission on Health Services was established under John D’s gov’t for the purpose of inquiring into and reporting upon the existing facilities and the future need for health services . I didn’t intend to ignore this and you could have brought this to my attention without an attitude which BTW seems to be your tendency.
So it took an NDP to come up with the IDEA, a PC to study the IDEA and a LIBERAL to enact the IDEA into LAW.
Fact: Finally standings of the greatest Canadians:
Tommy Douglas(1st)
Lester B.(6th)
John D(47th).
By C. B. Innes on 06.08.08 10:45 pm
Enligh
Bill-M
Yes we need to work on industry reducing pollution. The problem is we NEED them. So until we find alternatives, we need their gas, the heating oil, the natural gas, the transportation of our goods. So we may not like them, but for the near future we need them. And is a polluting company any more irresponsible than the farmer going to coffee in his F350, or the worker driving to work all alone in a car built for 5, the drive through, driving anything bigger than a smart car to work farther than the nearest public transportation parking lot, driving thousands of kms for holidays.
Kerry
I see foul play on both sides. Whereas Dion campaigned against Ignatieff’s idea for a carbon tax in 2006, Dion now supports it. On the other hand, the Conservative have so few alternatives to such a plan that the best they can do is make cheesy attack ads to manipulate public opionion.
So Garth, would you please ask Mr.Dion why he changed his mind? How new research come out saying carbon taxes are more effective when combined with a cap-and-trade system? Was it the lobbying of Deputy Leader Michael Ignatieff? Or is it really a way to fund his progressive social justice, environmental sustainability, and economic growth initiatives?
I’m an undecided NL ( Newfoundland and Labrador) voter, who’s sick of the current Conservatives, uncertain of the Fed. Liberals, on the fence about the NDP, and isn’t sure what other alternatives would work.
I think that Mr.Dion should have “Town Hall Meetings” across the country on the Carbon Tax, Cap-and-Trade et all policies. Why? Because giving people a chance to voice their concerns and debate it with politicians present, it’ll take the sting out of the Conservative’s ads!
Last, I noticed the Radio Ads the Conservative made (available on their website) are designed to sound like a call-in show. In my home province, listenership for VOCM’s 3 call-in shows are pretty high. A likely tactic? The Conservatives will put the ads out during commercial breaks of Open Line, so that some late viewers think their hearing a person calling in, rather than an ad of the Conservative Party.
Last, I would advise you look up some studies of the demographics of Canadian provinces that list to the radio, and determine how best to counter-strike: radio ads promoting the initiative as a way to shift to a greener economy, creating new green jobs. If you’re running it in Ontario, mention how your “Green Manafacturing Strategy” could help not only bring back jobs to communities that have lost work, but to benefit the environment at the same time.
Garth, prepare orders for counter-strike! (And yes, that was a “Top Gun” reference, just for kicks!)
I forgot to ad that we should use the “National Town Halls” That US Democratic Presidential Nominee Barrack Obama and US Republician Presidential Nominee John Mccain plan on running.
They’re talking abotu having a ’semi and/or no moderated debates’, where the audience would set the terms of the debate, and you have a mixture of pre-planned questions (maybe thru. Youtube requests, video recording, voice recording) and spontaneous questions (with a few mics in the audience, where audience members can ask questions from the floor).
If you’re also looking for a way to move forward, look at what the NL Provincial Gov’t is doing: deliberative panel discussion reports/papers.
Here is an excerpt from “The NL First Party Supporters Site” I maintain
” developing a Youth Retention and Attraction Strategy, using the services of CPRN (Canadian Policy Research Networks) by giving them $1.38 million to conduct deliberative consultations with young people in the province ages 18 to 30 (the members are mentioned in the Press ReleasE). In addition, they’ll have a Social Networking set up to get input from August to November2008. Last, they’ll be consultations in each of the 9 ‘Rural Secretariat districts’, in addition to St.John’s.
For more details on this initiative and how to get involved, consult the following links:
1. ” Province to Develop a Youth Retention and Attraction Strategy”
Link: http://www.releases.gov.nl.ca/releases/2008/exec/0605n08.htm
2. ” Newfoundland and Labrador Youth Dialogue Project – News Release
by CPRN / RCRPP”
Link: http://www.cprn.org/doc.cfm?doc=1905&l=en
3. “CPRN Home”
Link: http://www.cprn.org/
Apparently, there is a ‘Newfoundland and Labrador Youth Advisory Council’ (according to the June 5th 2008 press release found in Link #1.) I guess it just hasn’t been widely advertised enough, since the NL Advisory Council on the Status of women gets much more mention in the media than the NLYAC…. On another note, most high schools in St.John’s and in Mount Pearl do have a YAC (Youth Action Committee), which can do campaigns at the school level.
If you’re looking for more information, just reply to this thread and/or send me a pm on Facebook!”
From link: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2230406030&topic=7106 (concerning this)
Either way, I hope this helps to stimulate debate… Also on a sadder note, NL MHA Jack Bryne passed away on June 4th 2008, the same night that Harbour Grace, NL Native Danny Cleary became the first NLer to be on a Stanley Cup winning team!
Source: 1. For more details, see the VOCM Story “MHA Passes away: June 5th 2008″ Link: http://www.vocm.com/news-info.asp?id=29159 (or view below…)
2. ” As a backgrounder, she this profile that is contained in ‘The House of Assembly’ website:” ( Link: http://www.assembly.nl.ca/members/cms/memberdetail.asp?MemberID=11 )
3. ” ” Funeral Mass Held for Veteran Politician
June 9, 2008″
Link: http://www.vocm.com/news-info.asp?id=29244
Man accounts for 3% of atmospheric C02. Canada accounts for 2% of the 3% or 0.06% of atmospheric C02.
If we did not burn another drop of gas or oil in Canada, there would be a reduction of atmospheric C02 of one fifth of one part per million. Almost zero … and Dion wants to commit us to reducing the 32% excess GHGs by 2012 to meet our Kyoto commitments?? Obviously we are dealing with a Liberal ‘hidden agenda’..!!!
Conservatives are running their ads as the MSM has simply abandoned any desire to criticize Liberal Carbon Tax policy … and that is the true travesty within our democracy ..!!!
By Harry S on 06.08.08 11:05 pm
No… one of the major travesties in democracy is having to sift through false information the likes of which you just posted and if one can’t get the facts straight, chances are quite high that one won’t get any conclusions straight as well which, in your case Harry, explains a great deal.
I say its time for a picture of Harper & Baird , both wearing gas masks with throngs of Canadians behind all wearing gas masks . The message: The results of the Conservative climate change plan.
By Ron p on 06.09.08 10:03 am,
In other words, you do not consider the Hospital Insurance and Diagostic Act of 1957 as part of the process? Instead you only rate the 1966 Medical Care Act as significant?
In my opinion, that position is a good example of partisan “spin” rather than objective commentary.
Suncor? — Garth
BINGO!!!!
In my opinion, that position is a good example of partisan “spin” rather than objective commentary.
By C. B. Innes on 06.09.08 12:30 pm
To even suggest that I’m in the “spin” business is wrong. I have no intention of playing the spin game, I don’t have to so it’s not my MO, maybe yours but not mine.
By Kerry Busse on 06.09.08 10:17 am
We need them Ah, but they need us even more! Likewise, the oil and gas industries are taking OUR resources by government lease, not ownership. All we need to do is make that very clear who OWNS the resources.
Likewise, all businesses have to operate under the umbrella of the LAW. They just don’t have any restricting their gluttonous ‘give a damn’ attitude.
Guess who’s fault that is?
The U.S. has far tougher environmental laws than Canada. Let’s Get Some!
For those who deny mankind is a party to our atmosphere, you can view this and the other CHRONOS O3 pollution images from Environment Canada’s website. Funny how the pollution is found over the densest population centres. But, then some people are naturally DENSE!
CHRONOS at 500 metres.
This four panel one shows how the pollution travels and involves non-polluting areas just the same.
I can hear Baird and Harper screaming ‘DAMN SCIENCE’ here in the Muskoka.
<a href=”http://weatheroffice.gc.ca/chronos/imageview/viewImage_e.html?urlpath=/data/prog/chronos&Type=ANIMA4PAN&start=0&end=48&format=jpg&TITLE=CHRONOS&pas=6&imagename=00_054_C1_north@america@chronos_I_4PAN_CHRONOS”CHRONOS Four Panel View
Make sure and play the animation to see what happens every day 24/7 here in North America.
Oops! Bad HTML. Here it is corrected
CHRONOS Four Panel View
Oh, and note the nice plume over the Oil Sands in Panel 2.
This is being marketed in an entirely wrong direction. For the first time in history, the federal liberals should take a look at what the NB provincial liberals are doing. They are CUTTING TAXES first, and paying with the income tax cut as an economic stimulus package with a carbon tax and consumption tax hike. All of the numbers are laid out.
Dion’s plan is being marketed even by the liberals as a consumption tax first, with some vague discussion of revenue neutral income tax cuts that will come later. This is a huge mistake and people are not in an ultruistic mood with 1.50 gas. It won’t work. Provide a quantitative number for a tax cut with estimated carbon tax receipt in balance. I personally welcome the opportunity to have the option to selectively consume to cut my tax burden rather than having it jacked at the source.
This is a big deal….smart people are doing stupid marketing.
To even suggest that I’m in the “spin” business is wrong. I have no intention of playing the spin game, I don’t have to so it’s not my MO, maybe yours but not mine.
By Ron p on 06.09.08 1:28 pm
Why then distort the facts? You continued to pursue the distortion even after it was pointed out to you.
Would those polluters – oil producers, hydro generating stations, smelters, mills, manufacturers – pass on this new tax burden to consumers in the form of higher prices? – Garth
………………………………..
Garth … could you explain how hydro generating stations are major polluters?
Perhaps you misspoke yourself and meant coal-fired generating stations.
Perhaps you misspoke yourself and meant coal-fired generating stations.
By Harry S on 06.09.08 2:57 pm
Gee Harry, even this dumb, draft dodging, muskrat knows that everyone calls electricity ‘hydro’ here, but you still make a good point. LOL
By Harry S on 06.09.08 2:57 pm
“Would those polluters – oil producers, hydro generating stations, smelters, mills, manufacturers – pass on this new tax burden to consumers in the form of higher prices?” – Garth
………………………………
Garth … could you explain how hydro generating stations are major polluters?
Perhaps you misspoke yourself and meant coal-fired generating stations.
……………………………….
Great appearance on CTV Mike Duffy Live today, Garth … and I heard you say:
“coal-fired energy plants”
… so you owe me one, Garth ….LOL
Why then distort the facts? You continued to pursue the distortion even after it was pointed out to you.
By C. B. Innes on 06.09.08 2:51 pm
What facts am I distorting? Go back to the original post.
Our greatest legacy that defines us as Canadians is our health care. The fight for that right to health began with an IDEA by Tommy Douglas and ended in victory when Pearson was PM. It took a long period of time to take an IDEA and make it a success and there sure as hell isn’t enough room on Garth’s blog to document all the events and contributors who helped along the way. Do I have to POINT THAT OUT to you? Couldn’t you just figure that out all on your own instead of jumping the gun and calling me some kind of spin artist?
MY deepest apologies for not mentioning your PM Deifenbaker.
Now I expect an apology from you.
Gee Harry, even this dumb, draft dodging, muskrat knows that everyone calls electricity ‘hydro’ here, but you still make a good point. LOL
By Bill-Muskoka on 06.09.08 3:56 pm
It’s an Ontario thing. In some other provinces we refer to it as electricity.
By Bill-Muskoka on 06.09.08 3:56 pm
Gee Harry, even this dumb, draft dodging, muskrat knows that everyone calls electricity ‘hydro’ here, but you still make a good point. LOL
…………………………………
Well, Bill …. I’m sure Dalton in Ontario will be pleased to pass along another Liberal tax .. first his ‘health’ tax and now Dion’s ‘carbon’ tax … and pretty soon Ontarians will be the healthiest, broke-est people in Canada courtesy of your friendly, beloved Liberal government.
I wonder if the Ontario Energy Board will allow Hydro-One to pass through a carbon tax on Nanticoke .. ya think ..??!!!
Gee, are the Liberals every lucky, they are getting some great advertising on the Cons dime. Well, it’s probably our taxpayers dime, one way or the other, I love the veggie ads, looks good on Dion, especially the beautiful green head of lettuce.
Most of us love salad and it looks good on Dion.
What’s next out of the cons war room, or whatever they are coniving for next bout of silly attack ads.
They must get quite a kick out of bullying voters and citizens of Canada.
I wonder if the Ontario Energy Board will allow Hydro-One to pass through a carbon tax on Nanticoke .. ya think ..??!!!
By Harry S on 06.09.08 5:47 pm
Hell YES they will if they can make money at it! It’s the bottom line ALWAYS, and ALL WAYS! But you know that Harry! Besides, just think of the CEO’s kickback for sucha brilliant piece of slicko management?
It’s an Ontario thing. In some other provinces we refer to it as electricity.
By C. B. Innes on 06.09.08 5:43 pm
Not really C.B.. They called it that in the NWT and Alberta as well. When I came to Canada it was a tad confusing because in the States ‘hydro’ means hydro-generation, not electricity, but Hey!…what does a Muskrat know, eh? Have any idea what a turbine does to our hide? LOL
Hell YES they will if they can make money at it! It’s the bottom line ALWAYS, and ALL WAYS! But you know that Harry! Besides, just think of the CEO’s kickback for sucha brilliant piece of slicko management?
By C. B. Innes on 06.09.08 5:43 pm
And you accuse me of spin and distortion.
By Ron p on 06.09.08 11:14 pm
Uh? Ron,. I said that, not C.B.
Good night now!
Thank you CB Innes for your thoughtful response to my post (not so much WJP and others…if you’re going to go on the attack, how about attacking the message rather than the individual?).
While I fully agree with and support common sense solutions such as conservation, recycling, anti-smog legislation aimed at chronic polluters, even stronger anti-littering laws etc., like it or not, we are inextricably tied to the US economically and cannot afford to wilfully create a situation that would place us at undue risk, competitively speaking, with our southern neighbour with whom 80%+ of our economy is tied. Does that mean we throw up our hands and give up? Of course not.
As CB suggests, there is plenty we can do to clean up our own backyard. But I also believe our response needs to be measured and in proportion to what our part of the problem is.
An inescapable fact (inconvenient truth?) is the following…even if we shut down all industry and consumer usage of fossil fuels in Canada today, the global improvement in GHGs would barely be measurable. Remember that the next time you hear all the hysterical hyperbole from the Opposition.
Pragmatism, people. It makes no sense to turn our whole economy upside down with a carbon-tax or cap-and-trade system for almost no gain in the big picture (ie. global climate change) while the biggest polluters by far (the US, China, India) do nothing. I don’t like it either but the fact remains, the long poles in the tent are those nations.
So let’s “lead” by all means…but let’s also be sensible and consider ALL the scientific facts while we do so.
Me thinks Harper’s child like ads will come back to bite him in the butt.
Bernier’s inquiry starts today. Are the cons ever expedient when it comes to one of theirs.
Bernier and his biker babe kick a$$. She’s a goergeous looking woman and I can understand how Bernier fell for her and her ‘barbie doll’ bod.
Wasn’t that outfit she wore a bit too revealing; I thought it was a touch on the pornographic side of life.
Just waiting for another goberment ad so we can have some fun at our office when we have a coffee break. These ads stimulate and motivate crazy humorous dialect.
Please hurry with the next set of attack ads. Thanks Harper.
Here we are moments before the election and the lettuce ad will not go away. It is blatant deceptive advertising. Truth be known the carbon tax will amount to less than one penny per head of lettuce.
http://lettucetalk.wordpress.com/2008/10/06/the-conservatives-have-crossed-the-line-on-deceptive-advertising/