You might be interested in what some leading bloggers and opinion-makers in the West, specifically Alberta, are saying at the moment about my last posting. It’s always instructive in politics to do so. BTW, you will note in the Calgary Herald editorial published Tuesday, “The gall of Garth” that the paper embellished a quote of mine, and added words that I did not write. My response is below. — Garth
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However Garth’s apology isn’t much of an apology at all. He says sorry to his boss for making his job more difficult, something Dion must have demanded. He never apologizes to either the people of Quebec or Alberta. He simply just goes on to continue to throw more insults around at Albertans and people who have called him out on this issue. Garth also thows in a lot of sarcasm for added measure. What a joke. And to think this is the kind of behaviour that Mr. Turner thinks is becoming of an elected official in this country. It’s time for him to make an actual apology to the people who he has insulted.
Right on Course
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It’s how Garth feels deep down inside, which makes him the typical textbook Ontarian, and the perfect example that illustrates what’s wrong with Ontario and why Ontario is in the state it finds itself in now (economically and socially) – always pointing fingers at others, while being the biggest source of problems in Canada (have you tried breathing the air in, say, Hamilton, Garth?); always trying to get their hands on other people’s money to fund their lifestyle because being self-reliant, creating a free and unfettered market economy without government influence and forcing people to work for a living, rather than relying on handouts all the time, are, sadly, concepts and principles foreign to Ontario.
Werner Patels – The Alberta Pundit
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But only Garth Turner could look at the current state of Canada and see a country divided. As previously noted, separatism in Alberta — never a terribly potent force — is as much an afterthought as it has ever been. Separatism has been so effectively managed in Quebec that the Parti Quebecois and Bloc Quebecois are both putting off any thoughts of another “sovereigty association” referendum in to the far, far distant future. While there remains the same minor partisan divisions among Canadians, this is no different than it’s ever been. The future of the country is hardly at stake.
So, as Turner continues to stew ingloriously in his own juices, one thing becomes immediately apparent: it really does seem that Garth and his blog just can’t seem to keep themselves out of trouble. When Turner got kicked out of the Conservative party caucus, it was ultimately his blogging that was to blame. Now, his blogging has gotten him into trouble again. It’s impossible to overlook the recurrent theme.
Lorne Gunter likely doesn’t expect Turner to stop digging his hole deeper. He’s already dug himself out of the government caucus, into opposition, into the Opposition Leader’s bad books, and god only knows where next. At least it makes for good entertainment.
The Nexus of Assholery
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Garth Turner is a horse’s ass. Do you know what it is? It’s that we in the West (or I suppose from the West in my case now) want to be consulted before “national” decisions are made. A caucus composed of 90 Easterners and a few guys from Vancouver is, by definition, not capable of making a ‘national’ policy in private. So when a plan like the Liberal’s Green Shift is released with input from Ontarians and Quebecers alone – and when that plan levies taxes disproportionately on Westerners and gives benefits disproportionately to Easterners – what are we to think? Is it automatically ‘national’ because ‘the two founding nations’ were consulted? A decision isn’t actually “national” unless our half of the country has given its input. Is it ’selfish’ to expect that we will be consulted on issues that may effect us? We have a place in this country and are long past the stage where we can be dictated to by arrogant and parochial Eastern politicians.
Rjjado.wordpress.com
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The gall of Garth
Once a Tory, now a Liberal MP, Garth Turner used his blog last week to call Albertans “a bunch of self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first, greedy, macho, selfish and balkanizing separatist losers . . . just like the separatists in Quebec.”
We admire his directness. No point crafting innuendoes when a simple insult will do. Now, Albertans know where they stand with Garth. (So do Quebecers.) That’s more than we can say for his boss, Stephane Dion, who said the party was seeking a more respectful debate than Turner was offering.
But, of course, the debate is over a so-called green plan that appears to be a way of siphoning money out of the West for social programs in the East. That’s hostile, too….
The truth is, there’s a part of central Canada that just doesn’t seem to like what the West stands for. It could be envy, it might also be anxiety that Alberta’s star is rising as theirs is falling. It could be tribalism that in Ontario requires a pickup-driving out-group to despise in order to elevate one’s own self-esteem. Never mind that Ontario builds the trucks, or that the people buying them produce oil everybody uses. Whatever it is, loathing Alberta seems to be fun and easy.
Would it make a difference if we apologized for that bumper sticker about letting them freeze in the dark? Probably not. After all, how does one engage with a blogger who’s a bit “self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first,” himself — or the leader who doesn’t shut him up?
Calgary Herald
My letter to the Editor of the Calgary Herald:
Because I know the Herald likes to be accurate, please note the quote you attributed to me in your editorial is incorrect. You quoted me as called Albertans “a bunch of self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first, greedy, macho, selfish and balkanizing separatist losers…just like the separatists in Quebec.”
In fact, I wrote this on my blog (the words are still there) in reference to Stephane Dion: “He stood up once to the self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first, greedy, macho, selfish and balkanizing separatist losers in Quebec. I guess he can do it again in Alberta.”
The difference? My sentence referred to Quebec separatists following the 1995 referendum. The clear inference was that Dion could do the same to Westerners who like to talk secession. The reference was not to all Albertans. Worse, the Calgary Herald actually made up part of this quote – “just like the separatists in Quebec.”
Yeah, I know it helped make your case that “Albertans know where they stand with Garth.” But it wasn’t true.
Almost all Albertans are proud Canadians who share my faith in a great future together. Some are losers who threaten Easterners. The best way forward is to be honest and open with each other, and a great newspaper can lead the way.
Hon. Garth Turner, PC
377 comments ↓
Journalists in this country are agenda driven. The embellishment of your printed words by the Calgary Herald is a shame and a professional disgrace.
I had a similar experience with Jackie McNish of the Globe and Mail recently who took it upon herself to freely and wildly speculate about the arguments that I would be raising in my recent intervention before the Supreme Court on the matter involving BCE……when she had my written intervention factum in her possession…..I guess reality didn’t fit with the Globe’s “world view”. As for Jackie McNish, her clear intent was to discredit me. Unfortunately for her, it backfired.
Could that be a doctored quote Garth? Maybe you should sue, after a proper analysis by forensic experts…
If only Alberta would separate, the good news is Harper would not be allowed into Canada! Much more of this trash talk and you will be asked to leave while Ontario and Quebec begin to electrify our railroads and build electric cars fueled by our hydro dams and nuclear power plants.
By the way enjoy your new second class status as an American Territorial Protectorate. It will prove interesting!
Bottom Line Garth -You are entitled to your opinion even more so than us who are unelected as your political life is at stake.
Whether I agree or disagree I always respect a person’s right to state their opinion in a free and open society.
To me the misquotes and the feigned outrage are just ploys to shut you down because your blog makes a mockery of the MSM
Way to go Garth-Esther was right!
Keep digging, Garth … and eventually you will reach China and meet Mo Strong, Liberal eminence grise .. along with the Canadian friends of the Liberal party who have heavily invested in high-sulphur brown coal-fired Chinese power stations .. and are waiting for the Billion$$$ they were anticipating when a Liberal government would buy all those Chinese Kyoto Carbon Credits to mitigate the 30% GHG excess that the past Liberal governments let build up over 10 years of delinquency and neglect.
Oh well .. if Dion becomes our next prime minister, we can expect that to happen in 2012 .. according to the Green Shift and the Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act … Billion$$$ going to China courtesy of the Canadian taxpayer …!!!
Garth, keep to your principles. I wish everyone in Parliament would. Just remember – any publicity is good publicity. You’ve sure got them talking.
M. Dion, please forgive Garth for his indiscretions – he does know of what he speaks. He speaks for me – and I’m from ‘the West’; although I’m probably from the wrong side of the Rockies for Jimbo and his ilk.
How about this printed word Garth?
“I am a democrat who believes everyone in the House of Commons, including the cabinet members who make up the government, should be elected. They should sit in Parliament as they were elected. If they decide to change parties, they should go and get re-elected.”
Perhaps if you actually practiced what you preached, people would accept you at your word. However, the above post just proves you are all talk and very little action.
I didn’t decide to change parties. And that is a fine quote. Have you emailed it to Mr. Emerson lately? — Garth
But Garth, your party (or at least your party’s platform) threatens my province, my livelihood and my children’s.
Such a poorly thought out policy deserves the condemnation of those that the liberals’ national policy is meant to harm….AGAIN.
NEP I – Fool me once, shame on you;
NEP II – Fool me twice, shame on me.
Ed the Hun
These papers are doing the work they were designed for. (News)
This issue is not going away and will be on the radar all summer. The only way this will be resolved is when Mr Dion is faced by the press and forced to make a response.
He either shares these views or he will have to distance himself from them.
He will not be able to go to the polls in the fall with this issue on the table. I can see all parties in the next elction having a field day with your comments.
This really put his “Green Shift” on the back burner.
We are not going anywhere in this country by promoting hatred towards one another based upon their political views.
Ah, can you read Davie? — Garth
You can blame the current Prime Minister for setting the tone of division. Canada has never had as many wedges driven between provinces and groups as with this current government. Harper has No Vision for Canada and his whole purpose is focussed on winning a majority. Unfortunately, his bad character example is being followed by many of his supporters. Too bad for Canada that we have a man like Harper as Leader…not someone for our children to look up to.
Ed the Hun said:
“But Garth, your party (or at least your party’s platform) threatens my province, my livelihood and my children’s.”
What say ye, Ed the Hun, about Harper’s Income Trust Tax that was predicated on tax leakage that was supported only by 18 pages of blacked out documents.
The trust tax was directly responsible for a major slow down in drill rig activity, the formation of junior oil and gas companies…..and the takeover of prime companies like Prime West energy by middle eastern oil company Abu Dhabi Energy.
Maybe Harper thought you were saying “the West wants out”?
“Bottom Line Garth -You are entitled to your opinion even more so than us who are unelected as your political life is at stake.”
By Calberta on 07.08.08 8:29 pm
WHAT!!??!!
Is that supposed to be the entitlement of the liberals? Free speech for liberals, all else shut up.
Cal, you would make a great CHRC adjudicator.
Garth, I hope you don’t pay too much heed to the Con-monkeys like Werner Patels. I posted (or at least tried to) comments on his blog entry that you linked to a couple of days ago, correcting him on some glaringly incorrect facts and surprise, surprise…post deleted. He epitomizes the Harper Conservative mind set – totally unwilling to look at any other perspective than their own.
I feel sorry for the Albertans who only have this lopsided Conservative perspective that gets passed off as news.
Thankfully Dion is the opposite of Harper – he a man of courage and openness, willing to listen to others ideas, and always seeking the best solution. I look forward to supporting him in the next election.
Brent,
Regarding Income Trust Tax — do as you have been…motivate those who you say were ‘harmed’ by the decision. They are free to act/vote as they wish in response to the decision. I don’t agree with them…now if those investors were Toronto-based, then I’d say that they have some choices: vote against Harper…vote to remove themselves from the ‘national decision’ (separate?). Do all of that. That is there decision.
The problem is that the decision didn’t hurt all of those who invested in income trusts (I held units, but got out when the liberals started to dick with the whole status).
What Alberta (and I suspect Saskatchewan, given my family’s opinion), wants is NOT to be targetted by the liberal party to be ‘raped and pillaged’ as occurred in the 1980’s.
The problem with the policy is that the liberals, in an attempt to ‘get back into power’ are willing to sacrifice the livelihoods of those that live in certain parts of the country (Alberta and Saskatchewan) to win votes in the east (nothing to do with GHG, climate change).
Why do I claim that, because the program does NOTHING to curb habits that apparently lead to GHG emmissions (i.e. like driving), but instead ‘punish’ those by raising costs and seeing the money sent east.
As I indicated in the last entry by Garth, Alberta just announced $4.0 Billion in spending to capture GHG ($2.0 Billion) and $2.0 Billion investment in transit to reduce dependency upon driving.
That will ‘reduce’ GHG. What the libs are proposing is nothing else but money from one region to another.
Something that was done 25 years ago, but will not be done again.
The Alberta Government has a tiger team at the ready to respond to this eventuality. And yes, a separation question is involved.
Ed the Hun
Garth Great Blog and I am from the West.
some of these guys sure do not know how to read and understand.
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 8:34 pm
Again Ed, thanks. I do find your responses reasonable.
One more question…
The 3 plans put out so far are the Green Shift (Liberals), Cap and Trade (NDP) and Carbon Capture (Conservatives).
I believe that one of these 3 plans will be introduced within the next 3 years. So, my question, is which is the best?
Green Shift – you feel is unfair to the west
Cap and Trade – I feel is no better than the green tax – it will force producers of GHG (ie. Alberta and Saskatchewan) to buy carbon credits from Quebec (possibly Manitoba) – but without the income tax cuts
Carbon Capture – IMO, an unproven technology, to be paid for by taxpayers. My problem with this plan is that it is, in effect a “reverse NEP” – taking money from the east (where more tax payers live) and giving it to the “West” – or more accurately to the oil companies, which are currently earning record profits – and should be, IMHO, paying for it themselves, but obviously won’t unless forced to (or unless we build it for them)
Out of these 3 choices, which would you pick? Of course – you could also say none of the above if you don’t feel any of these plans will come into play.
Thanks again – and thanks for the responses.
Guess you can’t say anything about anyone in these politically correct days now. I read your words as talking about Albertan seperatists, but some might have comprehension problems so it is better to say nothing. I did like Werner Patels – The Alberta Pundit
comments tough. He seems to dislike your caling out Albertan seperatists, or Albertans depending on how he read it, and then calls you a typical Ontarian? What is a typical Ontarian Werner? We need a Comedy party of Canada, I nominate Don Cherry to be the Leader and hopefully future Prime Minister. Any one have any ministers who would work?
Keep digging, Garth … and eventually you will reach China…
By Harry S on 07.08.08 8:30 pm
My God, man!!! You make it nearly impossible for anyone to challenge your rapier-like wit. Tell us Harry, how have you achieved such a command of the written word?
Re. Rjjado’s comments
Extensive consultation was conducted with all sorts of private citizens and authoritative bodies, all west of Ontario.
From on-line Q&As with average Canadians to detailed analyses by organizations like the Pembina Institute, your claims are false.
The environment is a shared Federal-Provincial jurisdiction. One would expect that if this policy were enacted into law that extensive input from *all* affected would take place.
Please sir, calm your rhetoric.
By Closely Watching on 07.08.08 8:45 pm
Harper has No Vision for Canada and his whole purpose is focussed on winning a majority. Unfortunately, his bad character example is being followed by many of his supporters. Too bad for Canada that we have a man like Harper as Leader…not someone for our children to look up to.
……………………………….
But, Closely Watching … Please read page 16 of Dion’s Green Shift where he admits that Canada won’t meet its obligations under the first phase of the Kyoto Protocol. That means under a Dion Green Shift government, we won’t meet our 2012 Kyoto targets, and this is in Dion’s own words.
Do you accept Dion’s ‘Vision’ for Canada where we fail to reduce our current 30% GHG excess accumulated under the past Chretien-Martin-Dion Liberal governments ??
Do you accept the fact that Dion’s Green Shift has no specific GHG reduction targets for the duration of the scheme to 2012 ??
Never mind children, but how can any Canadian look up to Dion when he capitulates to Canada’s 30% GHG excess and has absolutely no goal to reduce GHGs going to 2012 !!
Just imagine … if Canada had controlled it’s GHG emission over the 10 years of Liberal government, we wouldn’t need a $15 Billion Carbon Tax for the next 4 years ..!!!
Tuesday, July 08, 2008
Turd Of The Day
http://farnwide.blogspot.com/
Ah, more insightful depth from the cesspool of Canada. At least we know where Karl Rove is working now.
By Calberta on 07.08.08 8:29 pm
What a colossal waste of time. Maybe we blame this whole thing on the education systems in Canada, because clearly a lot of people are having trouble with comprehension.
This whole thing arose after several comments on the blog about Alberta separating (you yahoos know who you are). And, it was the usual crap, “Albertans will not stand for this; the west will leave…”.
The problem, of course, is we have so many people on here who are quite convinced they are speaking for all Canadians, or all Albertans, or all Alaskan Malamutes, or all whatever.
It’s a load of crap; no-one here is speaking for anyone except themselves.
I certainly understood what Garth said is posting, and that it was directed at the idiots spouting about western separatism.
Unfortunately, Garth should have ignored the noise coming from those sphincters. They aren’t worth paying attention to…
Brent,
As well, the trust tax was ‘not’ directly responsible for a major slowdown in drill rig activity…that can be accredited to many other things, the least of which is not the high cost of doing business in Alberta, the royalty rate review and the siphoning off of capital to Saskatchewan to take advantage of other petroleum opportunities….
As far as ‘takeovers’, the energy companies (including Prime Energy), like almost all publicly traded companies, was sold at the advantage of the owner(s) (stockholders).
The amount of money being invested in Alberta is directly leading to the massive surpluses, plus the continuing ‘full steam ahead’ economic activity in Alberta.
Alberta (and now Saskatchewan) continue to operate on all cylinders. The tax trust did nothing to impact economic activity…
Ed the Hun
It is not surprising at all that those you quote showing their indignation, do not seem to mind doing the exact thing that they seem to be mad at you for.
It was clear to me, that you were not talking of everything in the West or Quebec. Only those that would support an agenda of separation or hypocrisy.
You’ve hit a nerve. It isn’t going to be easy “going green”, but these people better get used to things changing or there will not be anything left of the planet for them to worry about.
I agree with the others that you said nothing wrong. You call them as you see them. Good on you!! Keep up the good work.
Scuze me!
Test question:
Who was the guy who said build a firewall around Alberta?
Alberta has a geological windfall. Oil in the ground. That’s it, that’s all!
NEP I – Fool me once, shame on you;
NEP II – Fool me twice, shame on me.
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 8:40 pm
Posted by Ed the fool . Pretend soldier and warrior .
What say ye, Ed the Hun, about Harper’s Income Trust Tax that was predicated on tax leakage that was supported only by 18 pages of blacked out documents.
The trust tax was directly responsible for a major slow down in drill rig activity, the formation of junior oil and gas companies…..and the takeover of prime companies like Prime West energy by middle eastern oil company Abu Dhabi Energy.
Maybe Harper thought you were saying “the West wants out”?
By Brent Fullard on 07.08.08 8:46 pm
How many pages were in the report?
Geez Golly, Garth, you have provided the people in the West with an incentive to drive a wedge between you and Mr Dion. Too bad it won’t work. Dion allows free speech !
Has the Herald misappropriated your personality, Garth?
The feigned outrage … the righteous indignation….. Forgive me if my eyes roll…
This from a province where it is:
• a sense of entitlement that conveniently allows the forgetting of the large amounts of NATIONAL resources (read $$$ from Ontario and Quebec) that were plowed into it, not only to buy the territory of what is now called Alberta, but also to develop the oil industry;
• overlooked that the technology that extracts oil from the sands is based on the work of an Ottawa-based scientist (Ells) working for the Mining Branch whose notes were “acquired” under dubious circumstances after Ells shipped out in 1917 to fight in the First World War;
• not discussed that up until the 1960s, politicians and oil industry types were seriously considering using underground thermonuclear detonations as a source of heat to facilitate the extraction of oil from the oilsands (never mind the local population, water and other resources, and that the size of the territory to be honeycombed is equal in size to Florida); and
• a vocal chorus that is, in the modified words of Werner Patels .. “always pointing fingers at others, while {ignoring its contributions to the} problems in Canada”.
To Garth post 8:36 pm
“I didn’t decide to change parties. And that is a fine quote. Have you emailed it to Mr. Emerson lately? — Garth”
What? Were you drafted into the liberal party? What kind of nonsense is this?
The last time I looked Mr.Emerson did not promise in the last election campaign that MPs that change parties should go back and be re-elected under the new party. Now correct me if I’m wrong here.
Now why didn’t you do as Mr. Bill Casey did when he was kicked out of the Conservative party. He is still sitting has an independent. Or do you have something against independent Mps?
Remember Ms.Sheila Maureen Copps a former liberal Mp? She had promised that if the liberal government wouldn’t cancel the GST that she would resign her seat. With pressure from the opposition in the end she did the right thing.
So Mr.Turner how good is you’re word? Oh do you only criticize the government when you think they didn’t keep their word,and it doesn’t apply to you right?
So please don’t give us this nonsense that you didn’t decide to change parties,have some respect for the people who pay you’re salary.
Are you new here? This is boring history. And, no, I did not decide to leave the Conservative caucus. Mr. Harper decided that, so make him accountable. As for being with the Libs, well, it is now the party of the moderate centre, a good place for a PC to be. — Garth
GARTH; How much longer is Mr.Dion going to stand by while you carry on with your ranting and insulting of everyone.Are you having any discussions with Elizabeth May…..she to is prone to making outrageous comments and has on many occassion had that foot in the mouth disease.You two would make a great team!!! I know for sure Jack Layton wouldn’t have you in his party.
Ask Dion, not me, if you’ve got the courage. — Garth
But Garth, your party (or at least your party’s platform) threatens my province, my livelihood and my children’s.
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 8:40 pm
But what if I lived in your province and believed that the ideology you promote, the freedom of capital to maximize their profits no matter what the costs, “threatens my province, my livelihood and my children’s?” What if I believed that something had to be done because if these interests were allowed to exploit the environment for their personal gain that there would be nothing left for my children? What if my province, once a beautiful garden, was being transformed into a stinking industrial waste dump?
I can remember when the people of Sydney, Nova Scotia keenly supported their steel industry. They proudly referred to their city as the industrial heart of Cape Breton. Now they are best known as the home of one of the worst industrially polluted sites in Canada. Is that the legacy you want for your province and your children?
NEP I – Fool me once, shame on you;
NEP II – Fool me twice, shame on me.
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 8:40 pm
Maybe it is time for this again since apparently the NEP did not ruin Alberta according to a prominent Albertan.
http://darrylraymaker.blogspot.com/2008/07/calgary-heralds-disrespect-of.html
Sunday, July 06, 2008
THE CALGARY HERALD’S DISRESPECT FOR THE HISTORICAL RECORD
For those of you who read my musings, Rick Bell has appeared in my pages more than once. These days he is temporarily out of my doghouse. The quality of his work has risen perceptibly since he was recently awarded SunMedia’s prestigious J. Douglas Creighton Award. The Award is named after a much loved colorful co-founder and one of the publishers of the Sun organization. It was bestowed upon Bell for his undeniable excellent writing skills that has graced the Sun pages over many years.
Yesterday morning at the Calgary Zoo, I ran into the seasoned old pro Bell. He was there covering the speech of Stephane Dion at the annual Grit Stampede Breakfast. After exchanging the usual pleasanteries interspersed with a few loud guffaws, he introduced me to reporter Jason Fekete of the Calgary Herald who was standing nearby. I had never met Fekete before. He seemed like an earnest young man and was friendly enough. However, the introduction was perfunctory and fleeting. Hardly an opportunity to size up the personality and skill set of the young scribe.
Dion went on to wow the crowd of 500 or so party faithful with a forty minute exposition of his ‘Green Shift’ policy, delivered articulately and passionately without a note. The crowd gave him many warm and long bursts of applause throughout the speech, ending with a heartfelt standing ovation. It seems that there are a lot of ‘Green Shift’ sympathizers in cowtown. I have heard Dion speak many times in the past, but this was his very best outing and his listeners rewarded him accordingly.
After the festivities had concluded, I returned home and picked up my morning edition of the Calgary Herald which I had yet to read. I was disappointed but not surprised to see that the second most prominent story on the front page was – as you might expect from an organization that is in the throes of a steamy love affair with Bush’s pal Steve Harper – a negative story about the Liberals. It was written by Fekete who I had just met. The headline read “Grit’s blog slurs Alberta.” The piece was about the incendiary musings of maverick Ontario Liberal MP and former Tory, Garth Turner. Turner has mused like this before. He’s a loose cannon. All parties have had loose cannons. I would question whether Turner’s musings – like pitbull stories – are the right stuff for front page treatment. For that I don’t blame Fekete. It was probably the work of one of his rag’s many Conservative cheerleader editors. So be it.
But as I read further into the story, I did find something in Fekete’s story that, well, . . really pissed me off. It was the invoking of the mother of all of our fears – Alberta’s potato famine, its holocaust. Yes, the Ace up every RAT (ReformAllianceTory)’s sleeve, and the rabbit in every RAT’s hat – the National Energy Program! The evil and dreaded NEP!
Now, being a Grit in Alberta, I need not dwell on the fact that I do not like the mention of the NEP. Of course, I don’t. After all, our opponents have been flogging us about the NEP for – believe it or not – more than twenty-eight years! But what I really dislike is when it is made to look a lot worse than it was. When history is cast aside in the interests of advertising revenues or pamphleteering, or pandering to an important well-heeled segment of the Herald’s dwindling readership. That is when it really gets to me.
The offending paragraph of Fekete’s article reads: “The NEP – which set domestic oil prices lower than the world price and steered energy exploration out of Alberta – crippled the province’s economy for a decade, but it was compounded by a collapse in world oil markets.”
A fair interpretation of Fekete’s words is that it was the NEP that caused our economic woes for ten years, and the collapse of world oil markets did not make things any easier. This is nonsense!
These are the facts:
1. The NEP was introduced in October, 1980.
2. Brian Mulroney and the Tories were elected in September, 1984.
3. Mulroney’s Western Accord ended the NEP in March of 1985.
So, Fekete’s history lesson so far is that the life of the NEP was four and one-half years – not a decade.
But here’s more history – economic history, in this case – for Mr. Fekete:
• Between October 1980 and December 1980 when the slowdown began to take hold in the oil and gas industry, as well as other parts of the economy, interests rates – led by the Federal Reserve Board of the United States – rose from 13.5% to 20.50%.
In other words, NEP came into force and interest rates shot to the moon, just like that. There was no lag in time between the NEP and spiralling interest rates. Think of it – homeowners facing twenty percent mortgage rates. Investment loan interest in the same levels of the stratosphere. Business in times like that has only one way to go – down! It went down. And it got worse:
• By September 1981 – one year after the introduction of the NEP – interest rates were still hovering at 20%.
• Through 1980, the average price of a barrel of oil was $37.42 US (inflation adjusted to 2007 $97.68 US).
• Through 1984, the average price of a barrel of oil was $28.75 US (inflation adjusted to 2007 $59.47 US).
• Through 1986, a mere 6 years after the NEP and almost 2 years after the Western Accord that trashed the NEP, the average price of a barrel of oil was $14.44 US (inflation adjusted to 2007 $28.29 US – about 29% of the real value of a barrel of oil in 1980 when the NEP was initiated).
• Between 1987 and 1990 the average price per barrel ranged from $17.75 US to $23.19 US (inflation adjusted to 2007 $33.56 US to $38.02 – 35% to 38% of the real value of a barrel of oil in 1980 when the NEP was initiated).
And so, there was little lag in time between the NEP coming into force and collapsing oil prices. What this history tells us is that the NEP was literally the least of our problems.
See, Historical Oil Prices http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/Historical_Oil_Prices_Table.asp
See, Historical Interest Rates http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/PRIME.txt
See also, http://darrylraymaker.blogspot.com/2007/10/gwyn-morgan-pinnochio-failing-memory-or.html
Ed the Hun said:
“Regarding Income Trust Tax — do as you have been…motivate those who you say were ‘harmed’ by the decision. They are free to act/vote as they wish in response to the decision. I don’t agree with them…now if those investors were Toronto-based, then…..”
Sorry Ed, your implication is both wrong and geographically myopic.
This policy affects every tax paying Canadian regardless of your myopic east-west mindset.
The 40 trust takeouts to date along with the LBO of BCE have resulted in the loss of $2 billion in ANNUAL tax revenues to Ottawa. You folks still remit your taxes to Ottawa the way that I did in 1983 when I worked and lived in Alberta, don’t you?
Once all the remaining 235 trusts get taken out by domestic pension funds and US private equity (pending a recovery in the leveraged buyout debt markets) Canadians will have subsidized the takeover of a $230 billion market with the loss of $7.5 billion in ANNUAL tax revenue….equal to a 1.5% GST hike in order to compensate.
Meanwhile Canadians are being deprived of an essential investment alternative that is available south of the border. 75% of Canadian are not members of defined pension benefit plans. Are you one of the 75% or the privileged 25% like Harper et al?
Therefore, not to be affected by this brain dead Tax Inequity policy of Harpers would mean that you:
(a) don’t pay taxes
(b) won’t age
Meanwhile the rest of the world operates on the basis that the only two certainties in life are death and taxes.
As for being with the Libs, well, it is now the party of the moderate centre, a good place for a PC to be. — Garth
By The Right on 07.08.08 10:07 pm
Bingo Garth! There are legions of old PC’s that are in the Liberal Party or at least adherents to a Liberal vote.
We have a little bit of a score to settle with those Reform bastards in the next election.
Kinda reminds me of the finned thingy debate. So far you’ve got the military and westerners riled, let’s not forget about those feminazis, and now Dion, who’s next, real estate agents?
Gord.
Only Conservatives, actually. Normal people think this is pretty lame. — Garth
Ed Brooks, the biggest problem with folks like you is that you REALLY don’t know what is going on in the Alberta Government.
Internal to the PC party of Alberta is an element of ‘hard-nosed, right wingers’ who are prepared to branch-off into the “Alberta has had enough”.
Those people are elected members of the Alberta Legislature and have a contingency plan that will go into effect the moment that there is any suggestion that a liberal party will become the government in Ottawa.
There are many steps to the plan, the last being the separation question. Oh yes, there is a referendum in-wait that will ask Albertans (given certain minimum residency requirements) whether they want to see their economy and livelihood sacrificed on the alter of serving the same old powers-to-be located in central Canada (the same ones who through the the national government resulted in all of the country having to support the development of industry, even at the expense of their own best interests).
30 years ago, Lougheed and the PC’s were caught unaware…the same guard is still there and is fully aware of the game that the liberals like to play (demonize Alberta, steal their wealth and their future). And the topper is that the current Alberta government has a great deal of those who would prefer to see Alberta leave confederation (even without the NEP II) or at least see that firewall built.
All that is required is a leader to take control of the agenda. There are more than a few within the current government who would lead the response to any type of ‘federal’ carbon tax shift agenda.
Ed the Hun
Sure sounds like a threat, Hun. Vote Harper, or the country gets it. — Garth
Garth, you sure have made yourself out to be the victim, again.
The MO: make foolish statements with extreme rhetoric and wait for those you offend to respond. Then spin your tale to make you appear like the country is picking on you.
You sure know how to milk it.
You sure help. — Garth
This IS lame, next post please. Oh, I’m from Ontario.
Ed the Hun said:
“As far as ‘takeovers’, the energy companies (including Prime Energy), like almost all publicly traded companies, was sold at the advantage of the owner(s) (stockholders).”
Sorry Ed, now you are really showing your complete lack of knowledge concerning this policy and the nature of capital markets.
Are you remotely familiar with the term arbitrage? Tax arbitrage?
Arbitrage situations exist where on eparty had an advantage over the other that affects how thay will value a given security. One form of arbitrage is tax arbitrage.
Suppose I was Sheilk Abu Dhabi and I could aquire Prime West Energy with a lot of debt, such that I didn’t pay any taxes in Canada. Suppose the government in Canada was dumb enough to eliminate (read: zero) the withholding tax that I used to have to pay on that interest on that debt.
That would mean that I could export these pre -ax earnings of Prime West out of Canada at 100 cents on the dollar…..ie no taxes in Canada.
Meanwhile, what if a prized asset like Prime West Energy that is held braodly by retail investors were soon to be taxed at a rate of 31.5%, such that a dollar of earnings in my hands were only worth 68.5 cents to them.
What would I pay for that dollar of earnings:
(1) $1.00
(2) $0.685
(3) Something between (1) and (2)
Ed the Hun: For your lame argument to be true and for Harper’s equally lame tax to have been of no harm to Prime West shareholders, would require that you are answer to the above is (1).
In reality the answer is more like (2).
Meanwhile where is Harper’s proof of tax leakage? Promise of transparency and accountability? Why did he demand the blacked out info issued under the Access to Information to be returned.
Your so called leader is a fraud and a crook…..not to mention a litigious briberer.
Werner Patels – The Alberta Pundit… don’t make me laugh. This CON censor’s all comments to his blog that aren’t in agreement with his own warped view.
As for the Calgary Herald, Garth you are going to force me to buy one just to read your letter.
As for the rest of the Alberta pundits and Alberta separatist…. we’re gonna kick your sorry little butts all the way to the Butte and never allow you back.
And now we have Slimy Ed taking our tax $$$$ and cleaning up after Big Oil. And we still have to do without doctors, hospitals, schools, proper roads and hiways, plus pay provincial income tax. What a sucker.
C.B. Innes,
The problem with your comment is that you base it upon the presumption that a person like me doesn’t care about the environment of where I live (or anywhere).
Well that is where you are wrong, on so many points that are the basis of your assumptions.
Did you know that the Alberta Tar Sands is a smaller blight on the earth that the City of Toronto. The difference is that the sands, once the oil is extracted have to be returned to their original state. In fact as I type, the companies who are operating in the sands are restoring the land (can’t say the same about Toronto, can I?)
“March 19, 2008
Alberta issues first-ever oil sands land reclamation certificate
Former oil sands site transformed into forested area
Edmonton… Alberta has designated a rolling forested area with hiking trails and lookout points as the first piece of oil sands land to be reclaimed.
The Alberta government issued a reclamation certificate to Syncrude Canada Ltd. for the 104-hectare parcel of land known as Gateway Hill approximately 35 kilometres north of Fort McMurray.
“To confirm the success of reclamation takes time,” said Environment Minister Rob Renner. “Both operators and government want to ensure that the reclamation is successful before a certificate is granted.”
Under Alberta’s reclamation standards, companies mustremediate and reclaim Alberta’s land so it can be productive again. Alberta requires reclaimed land to be able to support a range of activities similar to its previous use.
“This is an important first step in restoring land to its more natural state,” said Sustainable Resource Development Minister Ted Morton. “We are continually learning more about the science of land reclamation, and we will apply that learning to ensure we have continuous improvement.”
The site was used for placement of overburden material removed during oil sands mining. By the early 1980s, the area was no longer needed and Syncrude began to replace topsoil and plant trees and shrubs.
Typically oil sands mining requires the use of land for several decades. The reclamation process occurs throughout the life of the project, and the final reclamation certification occurs when the land is no longer in use and has been fully reclaimed.”
As I indicated on a separate entry, Alberta (that is Alberta taxpayers) is committing over $2.0 Billion towards implementing a CO2 sequestation program and $2.0Billion towards a transit plan.
Not a penny from Ottawa, of any other province.
Ed the Hun
Brent, your assumption is that I am defending the Income Trust Decision. I’m not. I told you that not all income trust unit holders/investors were hurt. As I indicated, I got out of the income trust world when Ralph Goodale started playing with that investment vehicle. As I said earlier (reread what I wrote), you can be mad as hell and do something about it (i.e. don’t vote for Harper). The problem with the similarity between the trust and the shift is that one is directly targeted at a geographical region of the country to extract money and use that money to try and bribe voters somewhere else in the country.
The income trust decision is one of:
a. differing opinion on tax policy (tax leakage — is it real and if so, can the government develop a tax policy that changes the potential structure of a corporation)?
b. You say the decision was wrong because 1) the Harper government said it wouldn’t touch the income trust (getting into government the bureaucrats convinced them to change that position) 2) it hurt some investors.
I don’t care about the income trust decision.
And Harper sure isn’t ‘my leader’. Since Manning left public life, there hasn’t been a federal leader that I would describe as being ‘my leader’. Harper is just the best of a bad lot.
Ed the Hun
I’m an Easterner living in Alberta. I’ll side with the Westerners when it comes feeling slighted by the East & Ottawa.
For starters, it’s the negative stereotypes of Alberta. I know when I decided to move out here, all I heard was how Alberta & Calgary where home to a bunch of rednecks & greedy oil barons that can’t count to 20 without their toes.
Now, living in Alberta, I realize the “narrow minds” aren’t in Alberta, but in Ontario. I look back on Ontario and see this angry, bitter province of people whose provincial past-time is whining. When I drive in Alberta, people let me in, in traffic. When I stand by the side of the road, people stop to let me cross. In Calgary, people are mostly polite and civil not locked up in their own little world. And when Stampede time comes around, they know how to have fun. Out here, a stockbroker wearing a cowboy hat is perfectly normal, not some freak of nature.
My parents often ask me when I’m moving back. My answer is never. Why would I? Who wants to move back East to a place that’s full of angry, bitter, cynical types that expect the government to save them from every inconvenience life throws at them.
See Garth, difference between you and someone like myself is I’ve lived in both areas of the country. Ya know Turner, you might ask yourself this. There must be SOME reason why SO many people in the West resent the government in Ottawa. That includes people raised in the East who moved out here
Thing is, you’ve never experienced the west, you’re too busy stroking your ego going on CTV dressed in your riding vest. Easily the most cheesy and grand standing moment I’ve seen from a politician in the last decade
Irvine,
Calgary, AB, Canada
Hey, but my bike is nice. And I stop to let juveniles like you cross. — Garth
To Mr.Turner post 10:08 pm
“Are you new here? This is boring history. And, no, I did not decide to leave the Conservative caucus. Mr. Harper decided that, so make him accountable. As for being with the Libs now, well, it is now the party of the moderate centre, a good place for a PC to be. — Garth”
Mr.Turner are you for real” Please point me where I asked if you decided to leave the Conservative caucus.
You were kicked out I get it. So was Mr.Bill Casey for you’re information.
If you really believe about this re-election business,then why during the numerous opposition days since you were with the liberals you didn’t put forward a motion to stop floor crossing hummm? To answer you’re question if I’m new here the answer is no. I have posted before.
Now don’t bring up Mr.Emerson he did not promise what you promised. Why don’t you compare yourself with Mr.Bill Casey instead? You both were kicked out the Conservative caucus he (Mr.Bill Casey)decided to stay as an independent and you Mr.Turner decided to go with the liberal’s.
How can you criticize the government in question period,because in you’re view they do not answer you’re questions to you’re satisfaction. But here you are doing exactly the samething that you accuse the government of doing in Q.P.
The best that you can come up with is: “This is boring history. And, no, I did not decide to leave the Conservative caucus.” This is the samething as saying leave me alone I don’t want to answer you,and I’m being polite here. You politicians are all alike.
Hey, did you hear I actually outlasted Buckler & Brodie? What a hoot. Must kill you Blogging Tories. — Garth
Now, living in Alberta, I realize the “narrow minds” aren’t in Alberta, but in Ontario.By Irvine on 07.08.08 10:55 pm
Which side of Saskatchewan is Alberta on?
“Sure sounds like a threat, Hun. Vote Harper, or the country gets it.” — Garth
A threat? I guess so. I see it more as a promise though. If you think that Albertans will once again allow a Quebec prime minister, with the aid of central Canadian MPs destroy (or try to) Alberta’s economy, then you and your leader are mistaken.
NEP I and its terrible impact upon this province is still way too fresh to be forgotten.
It was one thing that the power behind the scenes did this time was to ensure that their economic house was in order to ensure that if it came ‘push-to-shove’ and Albertans voted as the polling is indicated, there would be no reason not to take the bull by the horns and look after ourselves (since obviously to do otherwise was to invite destruction from Ottawa).
The devastation caused by the actions of the last attempt to redistribute the wealth of Alberta took over 10 years to be repaired. Alberta is still building its infrastructure after cutting spending for 10 years to get its budget under control (of course the benefit of a much higher oil price only resulted in the the government slaying its debt very quickly and being able to stash away about $45.0Billion in various pots around the province — Heritage Fund ($17.0B); Stabilization ($8.0B); Capital ($6.0B); Medical, Scholarship, Funds, etc).
Garth you can take this bit of knowledge however you want. A threat? I guess the response to your party’s policy (if it were to become law) would eventually escalate into the basis for a referendum question.
Don’t know what else you want me to say, except the truth…you can be offended if you wish — I’ll even wear whatever the label that you were using in your earlier blog, but if you take the fact that given the option of:
a. Albertans allowing Ottawa to destroy Alberta’s economy again:
versus
b. reviewing all of its options, including the possibility of seeking separation to protect its economy and its economic future:
as being a threat, then I guess c’est le vie.
I just see it as putting all of the cards on the table.
Ed the Hun
It’s my country too, Hun. Do not delude yourself. — Garth
*Hey,did you hear I actually outlasted Buckler & Brodie? What a hoot Garth” And isn’t this getting juvenile?You were kicked out PERIOD Buckler and Brodie decided to leave for personal,family reasons.Quite a difference!!!!
Well, you fell into that one. — Garth
To Garth Turner post 10:58 pm.
“Hey, did you hear I actually outlasted Buckler & Brodie? What a hoot. Must kill you Blogging Tories. — Garth”
Are you capable being serious for a minute and try to answer my question.
Why don’t you do what you have promised you would do in the last election campaign hey?
When you act this way you sound like you are taking the tax payer who are paying you’re salary for a fool. Do you think that an election promise by politicians should mean something?
What promise would that be? The one never to tax income trusts? — Garth
Hey, but my bike is nice. And I stop to let juveniles like you cross. — Garth
Well that’s super nice of you Garth. I do hope you come West sometime soon Garth. I’m inviting you. I’ll take you out for a couple of pints of Big Rock, we’ll hit the Palomino for a burger and some garlic fries. Then head down to Turner Valley and you can pose on your bike in front of the big sign that says “More Alberta, Less Ottawa”.
And let’s make a deal dude. When we’re out and about in Alberta, I want you to walk in the shops, the pubs, the farmers markets and say “Hi, I’m Garth Turner, Liberal MP, and I’m hear to listen to the people”.
Then you can pose, on your bike, under an oil derrick (the one on Highway 2 in Edmonton) with an Alberta flag on your vest…while listening to Elliot Brood – Oh Alberta. Lemme tell you Garth, nothing feels nicer than being on the bike rolling up Highway 2A, stopping for a steak & a beer.
I can not believe my eyes that a reputable ,or what used to be when I lived in Alberta for twenty five years was, is reporting as news. To have such slanderous words towards easterners and Ontarians, and who ever else who can not be as prosperous by hard work and grit. What gets me is the attitude that Alberta is where it is solely by pulling up the boot straps, by no help from anyone else. I seem to remember when I lived there that Mr. Chretien was the one who launched a huge developmental grant to get things really rolling in the tar sands. Also another thing that gets me about the whole attitude out there is that when king Ralph Klein was elected he demolished hospitals and cut wages from teachers, police, firemen, and all other civil servants, only to pay for programs that helped the businesses. I have been to Calgary lately and what a third world province, the roads are all still the same congested grid lock system, and if you need to go to a hospital wow it’s crazy the wait times, and the main thing is people are just so darn busy with themselves the compassion and friendliness seems to have left the city. You couldn’t pay me enough to live in that province again, similar to you couldn’t pay me enough to destroy the planet the way Albertan’s are doing now. The real question is how did we get so divided on our views(east vs. west). I know their has always been friction and debate to some degree, however with this type of journalism by The Calgary Herald, is producing a whole new type of division, what next, will these journalist consider Alberta to be a unique society and do they speak for most Albertans.
Ed the Hun said:
“I don’t care about the income trust decision.”
Well I guess that means you care not a wit about accountability and transparency of the government or the economic well being of seniors and those saving for retirement.
You sound like a great guy. Glad your not my neighbour.
I agree with you on one isolated point, namely Who cares about Harper’s broken promise. Politicians break promises every day. It’s habitual.
No, what you and all Canadians SHOULD care about is the completely FALSE PREMISE for that broken promise, namely alleged tax leakage.
So where is the proof? In actuality, given you mentioned Goodale, it was during the Goodale PUBLIC CONSULTATION round in 2005 that a study was done collaboratively with the Department of Finance. That study proves that these crook bureaucrats are concocting tax leakage by leaving out ALL THE TAXES paid on the 38% of trusts held in RRSPs.
That’s like a landlord who wants to collect more of your money because he claims you didn’t pay your rent..when in fact you did. That deferred dollar of “rent” from a trust held in an RRSP is worth more than a dollar to the government since the rate of increase in the dollars invested in RRSPs exceeds the government’s cost of capital.
And even if it didn’t, what possible benefit to Canadians is an RRSP if the government doesn’t acknowledge the taxes that are paid and then concocts policies that are regressive to those very people whose taxes they arbitrarily ignored?
Meanwhile Flaherty the total hypocrite that he is, has this to say about BCE which he “forced” into the hands of private equity:
” well of course, Teachers’ beneficiaries will pay taxes when Teachers’ distributes BCE’s earnings to them”….or words to that hypocritical effect.
But by all means, ignore the income trust issue. That’s what Harper expects most lame and uninvolved Canadians will do……all in support of his phantom notion of accountability and transparency…..with infinite assistance from Canada’s pathetic press.
However let’s be clear, not all Canadians are as lame and intellectually apathetic as you.
Garth,
It sure is your country too, but you’d better read the Clarity Act. It doesn’t give non-geographical residents a vote…
Ed the Hun
There are many steps to the plan, the last being the separation question. Oh yes, there is a referendum in-wait that will ask Albertans (given certain minimum residency requirements) whether they want to see their economy and livelihood sacrificed on the alter of serving the same old powers-to-be located in central Canada (the same ones who through the the national government resulted in all of the country having to support the development of industry, even at the expense of their own best interests).
30 years ago, Lougheed and the PC’s were caught unaware…the same guard is still there and is fully aware of the game that the liberals like to play (demonize Alberta, steal their wealth and their future). And the topper is that the current Alberta government has a great deal of those who would prefer to see Alberta leave confederation (even without the NEP II) or at least see that firewall built.
All that is required is a leader to take control of the agenda. There are more than a few within the current government who would lead the response to any type of ‘federal’ carbon tax shift agenda.
Ed the Hun
=====================================
Dear Ed, There is another plan in the waiting, too. The minute that there is any serious separatist moves, the US Marine Corps with other elements will be arriving en masse. This has has even been practiced at Fort Drumm. When you wake up to the realities, this whole thing is much bigger than you understand. They might even have some units from the Canadian Army including the Quebec Vandoos, if they aren’t in L’Affgansitan at the time!
Separation is just a pipe dream and what is happening is the powers that be behind the scenes have us all conquered and divided.
I suggest that everyone step back and look at the total picture …..get an overview…and rethink all of the points. Emotional decisions made on half baked plans frequently cause disasters. Under an occupation, your oil will be used to fund the very things that are happening in Iraq, and that ain’t pretty if you have been “reading the mail”!
Nope we don’t forget:
http://archives.cbc.ca/science_technology/energy_production/topics/378-2140/
Ed the Hun
Telling it like it is Garth, that is what some politically correct people cannot tolerate..I love it…shake the tree hard… and the nuts come falling down.
Please don’t ever stop speaking your mind, Garth. There are many (like myself) who come here to get a different perspective on what’s happening politically in this country. We don’t always post comments but we’re reading this blog on a daily basis.
It’s easy to spot the political leanings and differences of opinion. Good luck to Mr. Dion! At least by starting in Alta. he has showed that he is a couragious man.
Its a pity one needs cruise the blogs to find those two sentences back to back. Such amusements should be more public.
Don’t know what else you want me to say, except the truth…you can be offended if you wish — I’ll even wear whatever the label that you were using in your earlier blog, but if you take the fact that given the option of:
Albertans allowing Ottawa to destroy Alberta’s economy again:
Truth ? Truth ? you dare to call what you post truth .You sput nothing but drivel .
You are badly deluded and in need of some serious psychiatric intervention
What a friggin’ clown .
Most other folk will discuss this bafflegab ’til death do us part, so I won’t bother; all this stuff is being rehashed over and over again, and for what reason?
There is only one subject worthy of consideration — the economy, as it is spinning downhill like a giant out-of-control snowball.
Let hairline hasbeen hairy and trolls deal with the small stuff; the rest of us have a country + economy to figure out, because CRAP has really screwed it up badly.
An election may / may not be called prior to Xmas; meanwhile, Canada is doing exactly the same as the US — spending wildly out of control, all because carney, harpo and fellow neandertrolls want to follow dubya down the road to hell.
One way or another, the election can’t come soon enough, as a lot of Cdns. by then will have realized that they were lied to, and Canada has a bad case of the plague (CRAP).
Any suggestions from level-headed folk?
****************************************
Combined with a few other reports over the past week or so, and upon reading this shows the enormous pressure China is under to keep their heads above water, let alone host the Olympics.
If the NWO wasn’t able to control China directly, then do it by other means — find ways to mess their economy up.
http://tinyurl.com/5o96bb
****************************************
Could be this is a ‘designed’ part of the takedown of the west’s economy — get Russia pissed off, let the war tomtoms get louder and then our economies will sink quickly.
http://tinyurl.com/6e35w6
“You can blame the current Prime Minister for setting the tone of division. Canada has never had as many wedges driven between provinces and groups as with this current government…”
CLOSELY WATCHING 07.08.08 8:45PM
You took the words right out of my mouth.
Garth,
The bloggers you quoted sounded no different than the trolls who come here, a small amount of people who basically vandalize for political gain.
I’ve talked with our visitors and friends in Alberta lately, hot spot you know with Stampede and all, people from 25 to 70, people who’ve lived both east and west and other countries… No one talks about a difference between Canadians anywhere. We are all the same. Of course there’s no difference between and west. Those posts are just fear and hate mongering by a bunch of idiots spurned on by the example of Harper.
“I feel sorry for the Albertans who only have this lopsided Conservative perspective that gets passed off as news.
Thankfully Dion is the opposite of Harper – he a man of courage and openness, willing to listen to others ideas, and always seeking the best solution. I look forward to supporting him in the next election.”
REEFER SUTHERLAND FROM THE BIG SMOKE 07.08 9:01PM
Right on Reefer,
There’s been days when I’ve wondered why anyone would buy the rags they call newspapers out here in Calgary. The television news shows are almost as bad. I find it all sickening some days, as sickening as Harper himself.
“But Garth, your party (or at least your party’s platform) threatens my province, my livelihood and my children’s”
Ed the Hun,
I’m an Albertan Ed, and your idiocy threatens mankind.
Alberta has the lowest high school graduation rate in Canada. The political mantra by the Alberta Con politicians is ‘keep them stupid and simple’.
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 5:58 pm
Sounds wonderful and nice, but… you missed just one thing.
Alberta and Saskatchewan have 13% of the population and 40% of Canada’s GHG’s. GHG’s are truly a western problem and its producer driven.
Just sayin’.
And too, Ed, you go on and on with this stuff:
“Now regarding refining. Alberta (with the oil/tar sands) has hundreds of years of supply…however until it is refined it is a useless commodity.” – Ed the Hun
Do you have any idea how much GHG’s will enter the atmopshere if its all burned, especially the way its refined today? Do you even realize that Canada doesn’t have enough natural gas in the nation to extract it all under current methods? Did you know that? Guess not…
“But given the carbon tax shaft, why would anyone build a refinery?” – Ed the Hun
This one is laughable. If you seriously believe $10 bucks a tonne going up to $40 a tonne over four years will stop development of the tar sands as scheduled to produce 1.7 million barrels a day by 2016 from where it is today at 1.1 mil, you aren’t all that bright. Two answers for you. They’ll keep building tarsand refineries up north for the money. And secondly, you really don’t believe what you said. I’d say that makes you either a liar, or somewhat slow. Pick ‘em.
“To do so makes them a contributor to the GHG issue…so to do so means that the cost of the GHG bill will be passed onto the consumer. And in Western Canada, that is the joe on the street. But not onto the eastern joe, because he gets his fuel from Iran (or Iraq or Saudi Arabia). No carbon tax on the producer (Suncor, for example in the oil sands), or the refinerie (already refined), or the consumer (becasue the libs plan CONVENIENTLY doesn’t include taxing the actual driver, who POLLUTES the clear blues skies of Toronto (sarcasm meter off). But in Western Canada, those costs are pushed directly onto the poor smuck driving to work.” – Ed the Hun
Firstly you say there are refineries in the east and then you there are no refineries in the east. Which is it? Are there or aren’t there?
And if energy producers are the big emitters of GHG’s (again, 40% of GHG’s are produced in Alta, Sask with 13% of Canada’s population), to meet Kyoto or do anything in terms of international committments how can one overlook the biggest polluters of all, oil/gas producers themselves?
And how can one overlook the fact that the producers are majority owned by U.S. multinationals? And how can one overlook the simple fact that producers with the record profits they are making, don’t have to pass down the cost of GHG’s removed from their refinery stacks? How can one overlook the blatant fact that at some point, Ed, it comes down to this.
C02 produced in mass quantities per capita is pollution! And I don’t care what kind of argument you can make against it, deny global warming/climate change all you want, deny that its developing nations that need to lead with pollution controls all you want, but thats what white collar crimers are good at, Ed. When caught, just deny, deny, deny.
We are way past denial of climate change here, its a fact. Its happening. And to believe that the developed world can’t do its bit at the refinery/producer level and show some leadership with such a crucial issue, that $10 buck a tonne going up to $40 bucks a tonne is unaffordable for oil/gas producers, thats gotta be one of the dumbest arguements I’ve ever heard. That ranks up there with Catylitic converters being too unaffordable, along with seatbelts and refining sulphur, or it getting to costly to stop pumping mercury from factory pipes into the Great lakes. C’mon, who are you fooling?
Its time polluters cleaned up their act. If it takes a tax to get them serious about cleaning up their own emmissions, so be it. If the govy wants to transfer the tax grab back to the consumer in the way of income taxes and social spending, hello, whats not to like?
Amid all of this fluff you put out there, Ed, the only people who will really lose is the shareholder. Instead of getting a few hundred more percent on their gains with their investments, they’ll miss out on ten or fifteen points.
If you really hope to pursuade anyone on this site who doesn’t already subscribe to oil burning, climate change denying, blue koolaiders, you’re going to have to do a lot better than this and you know what? You can’t. The facts don’t support the argument to not pass monetary penalties by the feds on oil/gas producers to not clean up their act unless readers believe your fallacies, twisted half truths and lies. Otherwise, there is simply no way the debate against a price on carbon can be won with fully revealled truth.
Hard caps truly are a punnisher on producers. Cap and trade is simply passing the buck and not suited for Canada as a nation. A price has to be put on carbon and it has to be stiff enough for producers to simply “clean up their act” and yet, not so stiff it kills profits and stalls the energy sector. If this plan is too steep for you, you’ll have to explain to readers just why that is.
When you know how many barrels of oil can be produced with the byproduct of an actual tonne of C02 the way its being done now (by doing absolutely nothing to capture it), then we can talk numbers. (and don’t mess with the facts, I already know them) Until then, Ed, you’ve got some reading to do and it majorly shows.
Where, is the indignation, for the greedy oil companies?
It’s Canada natural resources, why do we keep taking bad deals for them, and then infighting?
Why? Ask the Conservatives.
BY IRVINE 07.08.08 10:55 PM
Irvine has fallen under the spell of the divisive Conservative politicians here in Alberta, the ones who raised Harper in a cage too.
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 9:03 pm
My respect for your awareness on the issues is continuing to freefall. There was damage done to oil IT’s in a major way and to its investors who were mainly Canadian shareholders. Even Ralph Klein rolled his eyes with that one calling the policy a big mistake. Where have you been?
“As I indicated in the last entry by Garth, Alberta just announced $4.0 Billion in spending to capture GHG ($2.0 Billion) and $2.0 Billion investment in transit to reduce dependency upon driving.” – Ed the Hun
And this gem… 2 billion bucks worth of taxes from the taxpayers goes directly to oil companies! Isn’t that a nice subsidy. Why even bother collecting royalties and corporate taxes if all honest Ed can do is give it right back to them (someones on the take).
“As far as ‘takeovers’, the energy companies (including Prime Energy), like almost all publicly traded companies, was sold at the advantage of the owner(s) (stockholders).” Ed the Hun
This one is laughable as well. The Prime West takeover from an IT shareholder point of view was a one time buyout shot that didn’t come close to the pure profits that prime west was generating for IT investors. The quick return was peanuts compared to the long haul as an IT investor with Prime West.
Do you have any clue as to how profitable their quarterly’s would be at present? Again and again, I see you as thinking and guessing but not knowing what your talking about.
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 10:36 pm
And your 10:36, OMG man. If they try it, its the last Conservative government provincially elected for decades in Alta. You’ve really got to be brainwashed to think there’s a majority of Albertans who want to separate. Good luck with that…
“Did you know that the Alberta Tar Sands is a smaller blight on the earth that the City of Toronto. The difference is that the sands, once the oil is extracted have to be returned to their original state. In fact as I type, the companies who are operating in the sands are restoring the land (can’t say the same about Toronto, can I?) – Ed the Hun
I’m beginning to think I’m reading the words of the mind of a child, now. Close to 4 million people live in TO and GTA. How many people live in the tarsands?
And all this talk about reclamation. That 100 hectares which to us folk is a whopping 250 acres, lol… (and word is they had to hold their noses to pass it and it wasn’t in the heart of tarsand country) Clearly, you have no clue as to just what has happened to the environment due to oilsands development. If you did, you wouldn’t be bringing up “reclaimation” as though its something oilsands producers have been good at. Anyone can google earth, dude and see a comment like this for what it is. Practically worthless.
Anyways, for what its worth, I do appreciate your efforts, Ed. Mis-information has a habit of provoking true information and your good at the first, so… thanks for those efforts in these contexts
Garth:
By the way, I thought this was a wise piece (as well as your last). That line that got you in trouble there… you striped the generalities away and got quite specific as to who you are at conflict with out west (and out east, to a degree).
All I can say to the readers out there is that there is a debate going on and a necessary one. People shouldn’t expect a debate such as this (C02 emissions) to be kind and gentle. Clearly, as Garth has illustrated, there is no such thing as kind and gentle coming from Dions opponents and it has never been as such. There has never been that level of respect from oil lobbyists and their paid off/brainwashed propagandists so to expect fair play at this point…
I wish I could say that the past is past, but… our choices follow us. Its just as true with who we elect as we have to live with the choices of our politicians in the future so if you want to elect a federal minority government that has consistently gotten the tone wrong, has consistently been closed and secretive when it should have been open and transparent from FOI to Afghanistan (a year of offensive military ops before Canadians knew it from this government was shameful), labelling opposition parties as anti-semite (interfering with Israeli elections/politics), interfering with U.S. elections, killing IT’s, a dismal record with M & A’s, utterly incompetant fiscal policy (stoking an overheated economy was dumb… really dumb), muzzling scientists, wrongfully firing civil servants (fired another one for no good reason again just yesterday), Cadman, In and out, Bernier, ramming through dramatic Immigration changes with only one reading of the house, the billion dollar softwood givaway (with almost half going straight to the Republican party itself, yes its true!), Billion dollar military cost overruns, horrid fiscal accountability, The altered Grewhal tapes, unelected cabinet ministers and 2 week old greedy floorcrossers, do nothing climate change policies, foreign embarrassments with France, in Bali, in Lebanon, again in Japan with the G8, with Obama, with oceans and fisheries from fish farm sea lice to killing the inuit fishing industry to Tasers and armed border boondoggles to a full blown diabetes crisis (as well as a fast growing percentage of preventable diseases) to committee philibusters, to swiss cheeze accountability acts, to killing the Canadian film industry, to the americanized health bill, to, well, anything they do from the destruction of the CWB to the privatization of healthcare, to the deregulation of the banking industry (and that one, folks, is fatal, goodbye Canadian economic sovereignty if they succeed with that one). I might have got a third of them…
Everything this Harper party does is for one end and one end only. U.S. market share. And why? Because he’s a U.S. multinational lobbyist (prez of NCC) that never gave up his old job.
Folks, should I have to say it? We have a traitor as a leader and we can get ugly about it, or we can can get nice about it, give the Liberals a mandate to bring this government down with support for them (and they’ve earned it) and nicely vote the Harper party out and send them on a southern river.
The choice is ours.
Buckler and Brodie bailed so they can be sycophants errr QUIT being sycophants. Instead they will be LOBBYISTS. Who are they going to lobby? Gee whiz, that’s a stumper. Hmmm. *thinks*
For those who think that only Alberta gets gelded “news” and/or targetted talking points, have a gander at this piece of… I don’t know what it actually is. It’s published in small town BC and unaccredited. Doesn’t say it is a Letter to the Editor. Looks a lot like an opinion piece written anonymously. It’s under the “News” category which seems to suggest some sort of newshound and reportage, but again, no source. Give it a whirl:
http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/vernonmorningstar/community/24085909.html
Who wrote it? What? When? Where? Why? and How?
The Six basic principles of reporting.
Done?
Do you think someone paid someone to print this? How likely would that be? For what purpose other than the obvious? Is there a way for an ordinary Canadian to find out if a “news” source is ‘on the take’? Do people and businesses pay for or spread propaganda? If so, does it matter? Why? Why not?
Sorry folks, perhaps I got carried away. Seriously though, my aunt in the OK-dokey sent it to me cuz I’m nosy and wordy and she thinks I could get some answers. Can I? That remains to be seen. Do other newspapers publish like this? Any input you have will be most helpful. Thanks!
Oh, Mr. Turner. You’ve put a burr under their errr saddles alright! Keep on keeping on!
Hi The Right on 07.08.08 10:07 pm,
I paid attention when PMSH had Mr. Garth TurnerMP throw out of the new CPC party (It’s not the same as the CP party, they just took the name to fool the CP to vote for them last time. Garth was a life long CP member, until the reform party stool the Cp name.
If you were paying attention.)
Mr. TurnerMP did offer to have an election, when after more than 6+mouth
He trying to be an affective MP for Halton, he decided that Mr. Dion Liberals were the best party to join. So he asked them and was welcome in. Just as I’m sure you are welcome to join the Liberal party. (I haven’t joined any party but have been now to send money to some.)
Garth simple ask that PMSH guaranty that an election date would be set right away, so the people of Halton would not be 6 mouths with out an MP to represent them in Ottawa.
The PMSH was silent again, as he is so often in the house when asked a question.
Independent MP’s can’t be on committees were the real work in Ottawa usually happen, until PMSH gang showed up with there book to disrupt committee work and there sheets of paper with the speeches to read on them, and the added BS to say. If your MP is a PMSH gang member they are not representing you. They are told what government policy is and what to say by un-elected people in the PM office!
Independent MP’s can’t ask question is QP.
Why did/do you want me and everyone else in Halton to be with out and MP for up to 6 month, simple because PMSH is gutless and not willing to give a firm date for a by election in Halton. You should be asking PMSH why he wouldn’t set an election date
For Halton when Garth first join the liberals and Garth ask he for a date, and he would resign his seat and run again.
Not to worry though, I’m sure there will be an election soon enough in Canada!
I respect those who speak their minds, whether popular or not. Freedom of speech and all that. Why not give Harper the same respect when he said the word screw? Jumping on him for being vulgar is a bit over the top. If you respect Garth for speaking his mind, why can’t you do the same for Harper?
Nothing changes, nothing changes Garth, I suspect those red necks who have self centred hatred breaded into their cowboy boots will carry their prejudices to their grave. The sad part is their children and grandchildren must live with it daily. There are more good people living in Alberta every day among the many who already see beyond their borders and soon most of the population will have come from outside knowing of a life outside Alberta. Perhaps the culture change will allow true growth. There is always hope.
Brain,
You can sit in whatever room you are and make the stupid claims that you do, but I know all that I need to know about the sands. I do know my business…again, there is more pollution generated by Torontonians in one day than that by the oil sands. The difference is that once the oil is extracted, it will be returned to the wild.
Toronto won’t be, unless you consider it the ‘wild west’…with all of that shooting going on.
Check a map.
Ed the Hun
Brain,
Check out the new Sarnia Refinery. It ain’t happening. According to oil execs the uncertainty of the GHG issues in Ontario is one of the key factors as to why it has been shelved…
Ed the Hun
Alberta has the lowest high school graduation rate in Canada. The political mantra by the Alberta Con politicians is ‘keep them stupid and simple’.
By Dee on 07.09.08 2:07 am
Dee you have won the ‘Most Bigoted Comment’ of the month prize! Your prize is that you get to ride a very high horse at a full gallop through the streets of Calgary. Your ride will be proceeded by your prize winning statement emblazoned on billboards throughout the city. There will be a large ‘dumb and simple’ crowd anxious to greet you when you fall off of the high horse.
Seriously…yes, the graduation rates are low in Calgary and actually highest in Nova Scotia. Now…why would that be? Ummmmm…I wonder if maybe it is not reflective of the actual intelligence of the people like you so ignorantly suggest, but in fact linked to employment rates? Could that be it? My God, I think we have a real revelation here!
Leasa
Where, is the indignation, for the greedy oil companies?
It’s Canada natural resources, why do we keep taking bad deals for them, and then infighting?
Why? Ask the Conservatives.
By Barb the proof-reader on 07.09.08 2:15 am
Excellant post Barb.
I find it funny that the same people who are threatening separation are also the ones who want the natives to assimilate.In reality the natives are the only people in this country with a case for it.
We sit back and argue about silly things while our PM is out in the world helping his oil company buddies and screwing the environment.Nice.
PM pushed softer deal on climate
Les Whittington
Ottawa Bureau
TOYAKO, JAPAN–Prime Minister Stephen Harper worked to ensure that the Group of Eight leaders produced a climate change agreement that did not contain overly ambitious goals for cutting greenhouse gases, a senior Canadian government official says.
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/456919
I love it!
People are finally realizing what Garth Turner is all about.
Even people who know nothing about politics are realizing what Garth is about.
And, it isn’t good for Garth…
BLAH! BLAH! BLAH!
To Mr.Garth Turner post 11:20 pm
“What promise would that be? The one never to tax income trusts? — Garth”
Fair enough Mr.Turner I believe they promised not to tax income trust. But I also believe you said people who cross the floor should go to the people who elected them first. So if you Mr.Turner can break you’re promise why can’t others do the same hummm? I’m just using you’re logic here please explain!
Surely a smart young blogger like you can do some research. Tell me where I promised anything about this issue. What you will find is my assertion that someone elected with Party X who decides after being elected to quit the party, cross the floor and join Party Y, especially as a cabinet minister, should seek re-election. I did not voluntarily decide to quit the Conservatives. Harper threw me out. He is accountable for his actions. I am still representing my constituency, which is what politics is all about, son. — Garth
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 10:46 pm,
Are you serious? How are they going to clean the tailing ponds or the ground water once they are contaminated? I have seen contaminated land sites where nothing will grow they are so poisoned.
Some people never learn anything from history. You should be learning something from Toronto where some of the best farm land in the country has been paved over and covered with subdivisions. The air is full of smog on many days of the year. Is this what you want for your children?
Two wrongs never make a right. You have allowed the bitterness against Ontario distort your thinking. It seems that it is more about “getting even” at all costs for some real or imagined past wrongs.
I come from Atlantic Canada and there is no doubt that we have a lot of grievances about how we have been treated by governments dominated by other parts of this country. Nova Scotia was the first province that tried to separate from Canada. I have my own share of bitterness over how we have been treated in the past but I have learned to get over it and move forward.
A united country is far stronger than a fragmented country. There are realities of geography, size, population, resources, that we have to learn to live with and other people and groups that we have to work with.
If Alberta separates they will not achieve any level of independence. The province has made itself too dependent on the United States. Unless you formally become the 51st state you will end up governed from Washington and the petroleum companies without
any of the constitutional protections of statehood. Maybe you think you will be better off governed by Washington but remember that Washington is “east” as well.
There is a significant element in Quebec separatism that wants to become more strongly tied to the United States. For example, an official policy of the BQ is taking the U.S. dollar which would make Quebec totally dependent on U.S. economic power.
If that is where your separatist bitterness has taken you, at least be honest about it.
And, it isn’t good for Garth…
By Eric Foreman on 07.09.08 7:28 am
I think we constituents will decide whether Mr. Turner is the best representative for Halton, and I will predict he wins with 60% of the vote.
C.B. Innes,
Assuming that your premise is correct (51st state and all), here is what Alberta would receive:
a. Statehood;
b. 2 x Congressmen with the same representation as, lets say California;
c. the benefit of the oldest democracy in the world where the federal government respects its constitutional role (as do the states).
The difference between Quebec and Alberta is that Alberta wouldn’t want any type of ‘cultural protection’ whereas Quebec would.
Oh and Alberta is economically feasible. Quebec isn’t.
And my “separatist bitterness” is COMPLETELY the result of some central canadians (funny how they all seem to be liberals) seem to insist on sticking their noses into Alberta’s business, trying to destroy it.
You being an east coaster may have become used to that treatment, but we haven’t. And won’t.
Separatism is a natural response to the policies of a central government whose only goal is destroy our economy in order to ensure that there is a ‘needle-exchange’ program in downtown Torona.
Oh yes, I lived through the ’80s and it won’t happen again.
Ed the Hun
This is despicable: “Separatism is a natural response to the policies of a central government whose only goal is destroy our economy in order to ensure that there is a ‘needle-exchange’ program in downtown Torona.” Shame on you. — Garth
Love it! The neo-Republicans and their support troops making things up to make a case that falls apart when when allegations are checked against the record. They forget that there are people who care about the truth.
I have a special message for Werner Patels that he hardly would publish on his blog:
Mit Verlaub, Sie sind ein Arschloch!
Perhaps he will translate that and circulate it to his fellow Albertan agitators.
We are not going anywhere in this country by promoting hatred towards one another based upon their political views.
Ah, can you read Davie? — Garth
By David Halfkenny on 07.08.08 8:40 pm
Right, David, that is one of the reasons Harper cannot gain in the polls, he has divided Canada more than any PM in my memory which goes back to Lester Pearson.
Hi Greg W., Oakville on post 07.09.08 4:10 am
Mr.Greg the reason why I’m going after Mr.Turner on this issue is,because I truly believe he doesn’t believe stopping floor crossing. He has been with the liberals now for many months. Why didn’t he just use one of those opposition days to pass a motion stopping floor crossing before going to the people hey?
We have people who get elected as independent Mps. Are you going to tell me that people who elect them have no Idea what they are doing? Mr.Bill Casey was also kicked out of the Conservative caucus,just like Mr.Turner was. Are you saying that Mr.Casey is not doing a great job for the people who elected him? Just because he happens to an independent Mp now!
Why not tell Greg you are a card-carrying member of the Conservative Party, and a contributor to Blogging Tories, who has a stake in rendering me ineffective? You could not care less about democratic representation. — Garth
To Mr.Turner post 7:38am
“Surely a smart young blogger like you can do some research. Tell me where I promised anything about this issue. What you will find is my assertion that someone elected with Party X who decides after being elected to quit the party, cross the floor and join Party Y, especially as a cabinet minister, should seek re-election. I did not voluntarily decide to quit the Conservatives. Harper threw me out. He is accountable for his actions. I am still representing my constituency, which is what politics is all about, son. — Garth”
Mr.Turner you are now playing with words here. If you truly believed this,then why didn’t you use the many opposition days to pass a motion in Parliament to stop this humm? But I digress.I have no more time to waste here I have to go.
No wonder. — Garth
NEP I – Fool me once, shame on you;
NEP II – Fool me twice, shame on me.
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 8:40 pm
Who is the Jack Spar-I-So for Alberta [aka Fort McSludge] Sep-A-Ration?
Someone from the West Canada Foundation?
Gizz a name … We’re holding on with bated breath. Is it Werner Paddles of the #3 Solid Waste Lagoon? Gizz a Name.
Our MP Garth is comfortably surrounded by his forum groupies coming to his rescue and damning anybody who dares attack their Halton hero ….!!!!
It’s all moot because Dion’s Green Shift is dead in the water, prairies, cities, everywhere. Canadians want the tax cuts but they don’t want the carbon tax .. and that’s how they’ll vote in the next election.
Isn’t free speech great?
I love the back and forth of this blog!
BTW Premier Ed Stelmach received $500,000 thousand dollars from the big oil for his campaign. looks like a good investment for big oil. $500 grand invested 2 billion returned. The Morton gang are all jacked up about Ottawa while big oil is draining the Alberta treasury. Get your question ready Ed and make sure you ask us who we prefer to take our tax dollars – our government or a multi-national corporation.
One thing for sure in Alberta their are different kinds of debt -their is our roads, hospitals and schools debt, their is our large social deficit and their is our financial debt.
Just because we paid our financial debt doesn’t mean we are debt free in Alberta.
Billions to China-Billions to Ottawa! No somehow our Alberta government thinks sending billions to the oil companies is a better way to go. Where was the public consultation?
Ask me the question Ed I am ready to give you an answer!
GARTH; How much longer is Mr.Dion going to stand by while you carry on with your ranting and insulting of everyone.Are you having any discussions with Elizabeth May…..she to is prone to making outrageous comments and has on many occassion had that foot in the mouth disease.You two would make a great team!!! I know for sure Jack Layton wouldn’t have you in his party.
Ask Dion, not me, if you’ve got the courage. — Garth
By david on 07.08.08 10:08 pm
Hey DAVE – you like outrageous comments? Well, here’s a few for you:
B.C. gets no protection from an immigration department that imports literally thousands of criminals into British Columbia who prey upon law abiding citizens.”
- Darrel Stinson, Conservative MP, Hansard, April 27 1998.
“We should try to keep our mothers in the home and that’s where the whole Reform platform hangs together.”
- Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative MP for Yorkton-Melville, in the Vancouver Province
“The Europeans came to this country 300 years ago and opened it up and settled it and because we didn’t kill the Indians and have Indian wars, that doesn’t mean we didn’t conquer these people. If they weren’t in fact conquered then why did they allow themselves to be herded into little reserves on the most isolated, desolate, worthless parts of the country.”
- Athabasca MP David Chatters on Aboriginal people.
“Do you notice that in Toronto there has been increased crime from certain groups, like Jamaicans? ”
- Calgary Northeast MP Art Hanger during a get-acquainted tour of Toronto’s ethnic communities, to a storekeeper about crime, quoted in the Edmonton Journal
“When you go into the issue of homosexuals and lesbians it’s in the interest of society to have the right to discriminate against that group in areas of … schools is one that comes to mind.”
- Conservative Party Natural Resources critic Dave Chatters arguing in favour of discrimination against gays on a radio station in Westlock, Alberta, on April 30th 1996.
“You can’t scalp me because I haven’t got much hair on top of my head.”
- Saskatchewan Canadian Alliance candidate Brian Fitzpatrick during a native-organized candidates debate, November 2000.
Old age security is welfare for the aged.”
- Conservative MP Paul Forseth, Vancouver Sun
Will that suffice or should I show you some more? Enough of your hypocracy.
Enough of this silly argueing already!!!! lets kiss and make up.
Alberta has generously supplied oil to the rest of Canada for years so in a few years when there is no more drinkable water in the provence I propose we give them FREE OF CHARGE two barrels of water for every barrel of oil they have sent us before charging them the going rate of $136 a barrel or the market price at that time.
What can be more generous then that? No reason we can’t be best bud’s again is there?
Bin Laden, Oil Prices & Inflation
Money & Markets–Sean Brodrick–07-09-08
“*No production boost from our Saudi ‘Friends’. Saudi Arabian Oil Minister Ali Naimi said last week in Madrid that the world’s biggest oil exporter had no immediate plans to boost crude output because there was no need to do so.
This is a complete about-face from what the Saudis said last month — that they would boost production by 200,000 barrels per day on top of a 300,000 barrel per day hike in May. But it doesn’t surprise me, and it shouldn’t surprise you. With friends like Saudi Arabia — home to 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers — we don’t need enemies.”
I visited Alta. in 79′ and by the looks things have’nt ghanged much.They still love the American way.”Do your own thing and to hell with anyone else.”Eh,c’est la vie n’est-ce pas.We now have two provinces who consider themselves as nations.ignore those edits. Garth.We still loves you here in good old Ont.After all, this pronvince has kept things going for our entire history.Reading these editprials is like reading the CRAP found in most Yankee papers.The Lord help us.
Bin Laden, Oil Prices & Inflation
Money & Markets–Sean Brodrick–07-09-08
‘Scusa me … You might want a URL to go with that, Earl!
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/Issues.aspx?NewsletterEntryId=1945
Dee you have won the ‘Most Bigoted Comment’ of the month prize! Your prize is that you get to ride a very high horse at a full gallop through the streets of Calgary. Your ride will be proceeded??? by your prize winning statement emblazoned on billboards throughout the city. There will be a large ‘dumb and simple’ crowd anxious to greet you when you fall off of the high horse.
By Leasa on 07.09.08 7:19 am
By your own admission, Leasa, you have consistently maintained you are nice person. That’s why I would never make any reference to a POOR HORSE having to CARRY YOUR WIDELY SPREAD ASS-ETS to an adoring public. That’s why we agree with Layton’s comment, “to end the support to BigAss!”
http://people.alfred.edu/~rlb4/images/Garconis/Fat%20Subaru.jpg
What can be more generous then that? No reason we can’t be best bud’s again is there?
By William Dahl on 07.09.08 8:49 am
Right on – we can live without oil by developing alternatives – you can’t live without water.
Garth, this is a watershed moment for you. After more than a year hosting this political blog it seems you have not yet stirred the polls, they remain much the same. I believe this time you`ve done it on the unity issue. I expect a noticeable change in the polls and am looking forward to seeing the new ones as they come up. This bashing the other party into losing should by now be acknowledges as a very poor political agenda. However I think you`ll find the unity of the country based on the personal displeasure of the people with government as something that will move the polls. True, the none of the above will soon climb from the largest block of eligible voters to a majority of all voters of eligible voters over economic conditions. As next big shift will comes as economic conditions related to global demand of raw resources firms you`ll still be able to say you were right in there behind adscam as a political mover and shaker.
Garth, you rock my political world baby! The truth hurts, no doubt, but you keep handin’ it out and hopefully one day people will realize we’re all in this together, for better or worse. Canada may have its problems but, in my humble opinion, it’s still one of the finest places on the planet to live and we should all be grateful for being Canadian and remembe that when we engage in petty regionalisms.
You rock on Garth, keep fightin’ the good fight and I’ll have my fingers crossed that one day you may decide to run for PM!
It’s all moot because Dion’s Green Shift is dead in the water, prairies, cities, everywhere. Canadians want the tax cuts but they don’t want the carbon tax .. and that’s how they’ll vote in the next election.
By Harry S on 07.09.08 8:36 am
Wrong again Harry.
It looks like Stephane Dion has hit the nail on the head and that is why the neocon trolls have been so strident against his Green Shift Plan
Never mind gas prices, Canadians want tough enviro action
Wed, July 9, 2008
OTTAWA — Most Canadians want aggressive government action against climate change, in spite of soaring fuel costs, a new poll suggests.
The CP Harris-Decima findings fly in the face of the notion that Canadians, shocked by record-high oil and gas prices, won’t stomach environmental policies that drive up their cost of living.
Poll results were published yesterday as leaders from the Group of Eight nations, including Canada, issued seemingly conflicting declarations at their meeting in Japan.
One statement endorsed cutting the world’s emissions of greenhouse gases in half by 2050, while another called on oil-rich states to ramp up production to reduce fuel price.
The survey indicates many Canadians profess to want environmental actions that push the country toward greener, alternative sources of energy — regardless of cost.
Respondents were given two options: Did they support a more cautious policy approach “so that we don’t drive up the cost of fuel and the cost of living even further?” Or did they agree “the rising price of fossil fuels is a reason we must move even more aggressively to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.”
Sixty-one per cent said an aggressive approach made sense, while 27 per cent said governments should move more slowly in light of the rising costs of oil and gasoline.
Environmental advocates cited the survey as yet another indication that Canadian popular opinion is outpacing more cautious politicians when it comes to climate change.
“Canadians know we are living in a time of climate chaos,” said Beatrice Olivastri of Friends of the Earth.
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/CanadaWorld/2008/07/09/6107121-sun.html
I know their has always been friction and debate to some degree, however with this type of journalism by The Calgary Herald, is producing a whole new type of division, what next, will these journalist consider Alberta to be a unique society and do they speak for most Albertans.
By Frankly Canadian on 07.08.08 11:27 pm
No Frank, the Calgary journal does not speak for most people. Nor do the dead beat trolls on this site. There are plenty of good Canadians living in Alberta.
Cheers
The Nexus of Assholery has you absolutely nailed, Garth.
As he points out, the evidence and facts suggests separatism, in both Alberta and Quebec, is a dead and/or dying political philosophy.
Yet here we find you flogging the separatist beast to glorify your ego.
Facts:
* There hasn’t been a referendum in 13 years.
* The separatists in Quebec aren’t even in opposition.
* Alberta has elected ONE separatist member in its history, and that was 26 years ago.
* The Conservative Party of Canada is nipping at the Bloc in almost every region of the province.
If you really were the federalist hero you claim to be, these facts would delight you, Garth.
The fact that you ignore them while piling on about an invisible monster shows just how self-serving you are.
Hey, Brock, have you read the comments of other visitors here? I suggest it. — Garth
“A great newspaper can lead the way” Garth writes. I am not aware of any great newspaper in Calgary. The Herald is good for job searches and advertising real-estate. For NEWS we need to go to the net. Mainstream media have let us down; they are a large part of the problem. They get no money from me.
OTTAWA — Most Canadians want aggressive government action against climate change, in spite of soaring fuel costs, a new poll suggests.
Bonnie L on 07.09.08 10:08 am
“Stephane Dion has hit the nail on the head”
Hate to break it to you Bonnie but the poll does not suggest Cdns want aggressive action against climate change. The majority question selection, “the rising price of fossil fuels is a reason we must move even more aggressively to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels.” isn`t about climate change, it`s about the rising price of fossil fuels. Cdns want to diversify because fossil fuels prices are projected to go up not down. They want aggressive action to avoid serious economic liabilities, not climate change.
If you think the way to Cdn voters is a tax when they want alternatives for economic security you should have a word with the Lib strategists.
To Mr.Garth Turner post 8:13 am
Why not tell Greg you are a card-carrying member of the Conservative Party, and a contributor to Blogging Tories, who has a stake in rendering me ineffective? You could not care less about democratic representation. — Garth
Mr.Turner I know I said that I had better things to do,but I could not let this go by with out a answer from me.
1) I’m not a member of any parties never was o.k. Mr.Turner. Even if I were it’s no one’s business but mine get it. We still live in a free country.
2) When you say that I could not care less about democratic representation that is disgusting for an Mp to say.
Why,because I disagree with you’re plotics?
Hey, Blogging Tory, cough up that promise I made or buzz. BTW, why did you remove that Loverboy vid from your blog? I thought it was deep. — Garth
By Bonnie L on 07.09.08 10:08 am
Wrong again Harry.
It looks like Stephane Dion has hit the nail on the head and that is why the neocon trolls have been so strident against his Green Shift Plan
Never mind gas prices, Canadians want tough enviro action
OTTAWA — Most Canadians want aggressive government action against climate change, in spite of soaring fuel costs, a new poll suggests.
The CP Harris-Decima findings fly in the face of the notion that Canadians, shocked by record-high oil and gas prices, won’t stomach environmental policies that drive up their cost of living.
The survey indicates many Canadians profess to want environmental actions that push the country toward greener, alternative sources of energy — regardless of cost.
………………………………………………………..
CP-Harris Decima polls are suspect because they always promote the Liberal agenda, and everybody in the know knows that too ..LOL
What we are witnessing now is Dion puddling about and being shored up by the Liberal MSM and their dubious polling firms. What we are not getting is the opposite pov in debate, and that will not happen unless there is an election … besides, Dion may not survive as Liberal leader given the isolation he is in with no other Liberal MP standing up with him on his Green Shift scheme .. other than our MP Garth who has lost his credibility now.
Once Canadians realize that their GHG emissions represents only 2.3% of the world’s total GHGs, and to comply with Kyoto only contributes a 0.7% reduction to the world’s total GHGs, I believe Canadians will change their mind on GHGs and punitive Liberal Carbon Taxes. Meanwhile, China’s GHG increases blows Canada off the planet.
PM Harper is working to include China, India, Russia, into the Kyoto Accord so that their skyrocketing GHGs are brought under control … as opposed to the neglect and delinquency of past Liberal governments who ignored Canada’s growing GHGs for 10 years … and now those same Liberals are trying to ’sell’ … or ‘trick’ … Canadians with their Carbon Tax to mitigate the very same GHGs that the Liberals created.
Once Canadians realize that Dion is peddling a Carbon Tax on the excess GHGs that the Liberals allowed to happen … well that’s when the shift will hit the fan …!!!!
Nice that you support thieves whom steal “green shift” name. Idiot!
Interesting to note that “Green Shift” was used by the British governenment for an environmental program, and “Green Shift” is the name of a US-based biofuels technology company, as well as the “Green Shift” in Toronto that makes enviro-friendly products and the “Green Shift” that is a proposed Lib policy intiiative. Very popular. — Garth
“What promise would that be? The one never to tax income trusts? — Garth”
I have a question, Garth. Its for you not your lemmings.
Why is it if Harper has a change of policy he is a liar? If Dion has a change of policy he is a visionary?
Dion said he would not impose a carbon tax, remember?
Mr. Harper campaigned across Canada on his solemn, oft-stated policy pledge and secured the support of seniors to become prime minister. Then he screwed them (to use his terminology). Mr. Dion was campaiging among Liberal supporters and, at the time, was a backbench Opposition MP. So, it’s up to Libs to tell him if they accept or reject his change of heart. I don’t think you qualify. — Garth
By Ed the Hun on 07.09.08 7:02 am
“You can sit in whatever room you are and make the stupid claims that you do, but I know all that I need to know about the sands. I do know my business…again, there is more pollution generated by Torontonians in one day than that by the oil sands. The difference is that once the oil is extracted, it will be returned to the wild.” – Ed the Hun
Are you kidding me? You think the acidification/pollution of those soils is suddenly going to balance out their PH overnight? You yourself said that they imported top soils from the “unmined land” to reclaim what I’m saying the Alta govy held their noses and passed and they did it in response to a Pembina report that was pretty much an F on the tarsands industry overall environmentally. In other words, Ed, the whole thing was staged and it doesn’t pass the smell test.
Tell me how the importing of topsoil is going to work with 200,000 acres of the “hundreds of years” of oil you claim can be mined with “current methods”. If they saved the initial topsoils, its doable but guess what, Ed. Tarsands developers haven’t done this to date and its documented but even so, if they try it, success is not a lock. Acids highly likely seep from infills below with time even if its tried.
As for the rest of your rebuttal, WHAT REBUTTAL? Like I say, until you can give me an actual answer thats true concerning how many barrels of oil is refined on average with the production of an actual tonne of carbon by current unregulated emissions refining methods (non sequesterization of C02), then we can’t even get to numbers.
Ed, its like this. Until you can give us bloggers/readers alike an actual honest answer with this question, your whole “Alberta will separate from the NEP II tax grab” is complete bunk. And you know what? When you do get that answer, then you’ll know what I know… and that is that your arguement, any argument the oil industry/brainwashed propagandists puts forth is unwinnable unless they can actually convince the public that global warming/climate change isn’t happening (good luck with that), or that oil producers can’t clean up their act without it forcing oil/gas producers to go broke. Lol, wish you lots of luck with both. The best you can do is serve us by being the poor sap who has to try to defend a losing argument because its majorly trumped with the fully revealed truth. (poor sap, takes all kinds but you truly are doing us a service)
By Ed the Hun on 07.09.08 7:05 am
Check out the new Sarnia Refinery. It ain’t happening. According to oil execs the uncertainty of the GHG issues in Ontario is one of the key factors as to why it has been shelved – Ed the Hun
Links please and keep in mind this is in Ontario, not western Canada where the east imports and the west exports. Apples and oranges, Ed and you didn’t list ALL the reasons why, did you. (Ed is right by the way, William. Oil from the west is all pipelined south, eastern oil burned by Canadians is imported from other nations and it has everything to do with world prices and the scrapping of the NEP which see’s every drop of oil produced from the west being piped to the states. This by the way, makes no sense from a national standpoint. Trudeau had it right, except he didn’t want to pay world prices at a time when oil prices were recessed or about to be. As well, he was hit hard by oil lobbyist propaganda and didn’t sell his idea well enough and here it is, what we have today. Western oil produced goes south and the east imports from the rest of the world for its consumption. Sad really that the majority of Canadians don’t even know where their refined oil comes from. It compares to putting food on your plate and not knowing where its grown/fed and readers reading this are likely saying, the smart ones at least, “its worth knowing”)
If all you folks from central Canada want a united Canada, then quit electing the liberals and their divisive policies.
Quit electing the party of the NEP and their ’screw the west, we’ll take the rest’ approach.
Quit electing the liberals who demonized Alberta for talking about making health care better by allowing private clinics while Quebec actually allowed them.
Quit being so stupid as to elect an idiot like Paul Martin who portrayed himself as the defender of public health care in Canada while his own doctor ran a private clinic in Quebec.
Quit electing liberals who would impose the Kyoto accord on Alberta’s oil industry while exempting Ontario’s auto industry.
You want a united Canada? Quit electing the liberals who play one region against another.
Now the liberals have a new plan to screw the west to buy votes in the east.
Quit being such gullible fools if you actually want a united Canada.
Or what, Stan? — Garth
By Ed the Hun on 07.09.08 8:05 am,
At least you are finally being honest about your agenda to trade Ottawa for Washington. I am sure there are other separatists in Alberta that might have other ideas. Your willingness to trade Ottawa for Washington and remember that getting the same Senate representation as California means that your proportion of representation overall will fall dramatically. You would give up Canada for far less federal representation and far less political power in a country that has a population ten times that of Canada. Sometimes people will allow their bitterness to take them in directions that are definately not in their own interests.
The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.
Assuming that your premise is correct (51st state and all), here is what Alberta would receive:
a. Statehood;
b. 2 x Congressmen with the same representation as, lets say California;
c. the benefit of the oldest democracy in the world where the federal government respects its constitutional role (as do the states).
The difference between Quebec and Alberta is that Alberta wouldn’t want any type of ‘cultural protection’ whereas Quebec would.
Oh and Alberta is economically feasible. Quebec isn’t.
And my “separatist bitterness” is COMPLETELY the result of some central canadians (funny how they all seem to be liberals) seem to insist on sticking their noses into Alberta’s business, trying to destroy it.
You being an east coaster may have become used to that treatment, but we haven’t. And won’t.
Separatism is a natural response to the policies of a central government whose only goal is destroy our economy in order to ensure that there is a ‘needle-exchange’ program in downtown Torona.
Oh yes, I lived through the ’80s and it won’t happen again.
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.09.08 8:05 am
Ed, take your bigoted blinders off & face the facts. There are 4 main political parties in Canada, not just your CPC Party or the Liberal Party. Obviously 65% of the people across Canada don’t agree with your party policies & probably 90% or more do not want to see a divided Canada.
You & your fellow separatists are Traitors & an insult to Canada & its citizen’s. If you feel so strongly about leaving Canada, please do so. No one is keeping you here. Get your passport in order & bon voyage. Quit trying to speak for the rest of Canadians.
PS, we all lived through the 80’s. Some of us who didn’t spend beyond our means kept our debt down & spent only what was necessary to ride the down turn. We happened to be the ones who worked at normal jobs with low salaries with just enough money to pay the rent & buy groceries. We also had young children to raise.
We could never afford to buy homes on speculation & than lose everything when & if the economy went into in a recession (which it did) & interest rates were 17% plus. You see Ed, we didn’t spend money we never had & that is why average Canadians got through the early 80’s. I am truly sorry you were a loser at that time but for Christ’s sake, take some of the responsibility on yourself & quit blaming the government.
Good posts Brain. Too bad the trolls can’t take off their blinders & recognize facts when they see it.
Cheers
For every blogging tory utterance you post saying casting dispersions about the east of the country, there are no doubt an equal number of Liberal bloggers saying the same about the west. Your commentors are a prime example of that.
Bloggers and commentors can say whatever they want about those that reside in other parts of the country, they aren’t members of the Parliament of Canada. You are. You should know the difference, and not use the words of unelected Canadian citizens in an attempt to justify your wrongful slights of areas of the country for which you feel a sense of contempt.
I did not sleight any ‘areas of the country’. I slagged separatists and secessionists. And, pal, that’s my job – to stand up for Canada. — Garth
C’est pour moi une question de passion pour notre pays, ses défis, ce que nous avons accompli, son futur verdis.
By Stan on 07.09.08 11:25 am
I don’t know what reality you live in, but in mine, the Liberals lost the last election because we in the east didn’t vote for the Liberals.
It sure wasn’t because Alberta changed their voting habits.
Troll.
By Harry S on 07.09.08 11:02 am
MSN is Liberal now! Keep on clucking, Harry (or trucking, or whatever it is that you do, its good for comic relief.)
As for China and Kyoto, I suggest you read this link in full Harry and come back to us as to why China would be a top pick to trade carbon credits with under Kyoto.
Please explain.
And if you wish to go on about China/Kyoto loopholes, here’s one for you. If China recieves Kyoto carbon credits to fund projects for carbon sequestering, legally at this point it could be argued that China has now become an ANNEX 1 nation. The loophole you cling onto is a temporary one at best from a legal standpoint.
Seriously, the only thing standing in the way of Kyoto is GWB and he’s not going to around for much longer(How many posts have you blathered on with that one, chuckles).
By got rope? on 07.09.08 10:47 am
“They want aggressive action to avoid serious economic liabilities, not climate change.
If you think the way to Cdn voters is a tax when they want alternatives for economic security you should have a word with the Lib strategists.” – Got rope?
So… what you are saying (or heavily extrapolating) is that Canadians won’t do dick for climate change if it costs them financially, that its “all about the money” for us, its me first, we gave at the office. Thanks for the Canadian putdown of the day! Thanks for putting words in the mouths of Canadians and describing us as greedy money grubbers when it comes to the environment, you’re too kind.
So, it’s up to Libs to tell him if they accept or reject his change of heart. I don’t think you qualify. — Garth
By Janice on 07.09.08 11:13 am
So this green shaft is a liberal debate, not a national debate? So Alberta and Sask should just roll over and let the libs redistribute their wealth to central Canada. Basically, as you say, we don’t qualify to be in the discussion.
See, Garth, thats the arrogance of liberals that causes regional divisions and ignites separatism. But I think you know that. Thats why you play this game. Trying to score points in a region where you hope to make gains while alienating another where you know there are no gains to make. It is you who are the separatist.
I just finished a radio interview with John Gormley in Saskatchewan. Answering his questions about wealth redistribution was easy. And you’re no Gormley. — Garth
Hypocrisy Summit
Ironic quote from a troll: “You should be proud of our PM Harper at the G-8” …considering just days ago, Gordon Brown was urging us all to stop wasting food and combat rising prices and a global shortage of provisions.
I hope Harper ate all 24 courses of food he was served in one day.
The world leaders enjoy an 18-course banquet and a 6-course lunch as they discussed how to solve global food crisis at the summit focused on solving the food crisis.
I guess they thought the problem was too much food. So were they trying to help eat it all themselves?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1032909/Summit-thats-hard-swallow–world-leaders-enjoy-18-course-banquet-discuss-solve-global-food-crisis.html
[with a nod to posts by Lana, Charles]
By C. B. Innes on 07.09.08 11:28 am
They just can’t see through Harpers motives to divide and conquer for U.S. market share. Sad, really.
And, pal, that’s my job – to stand up for Canada. — Garth
Do you really think you’re doing a great job of uniting the country right now? It does not seem that way. Your perception of what you did (slagged separatists and secessionists) is not the reality (insulted the Quebecois and Albertans), and I think that is where the problem lies.
I am a Liberal federalist Quebecer, but I support all Quebecers..even the secessionists. If you, an Ontarian, attempt to carve any segment of the Quebecois out and insult them, you insult me. Get it?
I’m a federal MP. I will stand up against those who threaten the country’s future. Get it? — Garth
By Bonnie L on 07.08.08 10:17 pm
Bonnie, that was excellent but unfortunately the RAT’s won’t see it that way.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
“This is an important first step in restoring land to its more natural state,” said Sustainable Resource Development Minister Ted Morton.
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 10:46 pm
C.B Innes, FYI , Ted Morton is another one of those Evangelicals, another one like Stockpile Day who think the world is 6000 years old , that everything on this planet has been put here for us to consume without any regard to accountability and sustainability because in the end the big picture is all about the Tribulation, Rapture and Armageddon. It’s just as absurd to believe that a bevy of virgins will be awaiting the arrival of those of other faiths.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
NEP I and its terrible impact upon this province is still way too fresh to be forgotten.
By Ed the Hun on 07.08.08 11:08 pm
Ed, are you a complete idiot? Did you read Bonnie’s detailed account of what happened in the 80’s. It’s not just her imagination, it’s factual.
I’ve lived in Calgary for 30 years and during the 80’s I was a bond futures trader. Inflation began to rear it’s ugly head in 1974 but it could not be contained. The momentum of higher inflation over the following years ultimately led to 20% interest rates and that’s what hurt our local economy along with the rest of the WORLD. It had NOTHING to do with the NEP. Higher interest rates are once again on the horizon and if we see a repeat of the 80’s, the higher rates will affect oil prices just like they did before. All commodities would crash not just oil and then who will you blame. I will protest your lame blame on the NEP myth until the cows come home. The world is much bigger than Alberta and we are not the centre of the universe.
Ah ! Can you read Davie? Garth
Yes I do read but I am not a genius. But I do get by.
I was giving my opinion. Regardless of what language was used I do not believe you understand the gravity of your comments.
I beieve everyone has a right to support a political party. The Bloc are a registered and recognized regional party similar to all other parties. They command the majority of the vote in Quebec. Meaning we must work hard to show that remaining in Canada is the best option. I believe the Federal Government has done a fair job of containing this movement.
You have degraded all the people who support those ideals. This could push some to the Bloc side if for no other reason than anger. Everyone does not agree with Liberal, Conservative, NDP and Green party policies but they do not have a right to dismiss them with the use of labels or name calling.
One would think a person of your status and knowledge would realize that even though we disagree with these individuals values does not make them any less a Canadian than the rest of us.
Are you that simple Garth?
The easterners on this blog complain about westerners being divisive. If you want the country to be united, quit supporting liberals and liberal policies that are divisive.
The answer to ‘Or what?’ is you will have a divisive country and eventually a divided country and likely a separate Alberta.
Remember Kieth Davies and the liberals ’screw the west’ approach.
Remember Marc Lalonde admitting the NEP was designed to damage Alberta’s economy.
This idiotic policy of Dion’s is clearly divisive, Dion himself admitted it would take billions out of the west and distribute the money in the rest of Canada to buy votes.
That, Garth, is divisive.
So if you are standing up for a united Canada why are you supporting this divisive liberal policy?
If you are the big defender of Canada and superman in your fight against the separatists, why support a party that is pushing divisive policies?
I guess you figure the eastern voters are dumb enough to believe your BS about defending Canada against separatists while at the same time supporting divisive policies.
Maybe you’re right.
Keith Davey and Marc Lalonde. Are you guys serious? — Garth
By brain on 07.09.08 11:45 am
Wups, for Harry S, the missing link, lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol
Give it a read buddy and then give it a rest.
$8.5 MILLION GREEN SHIFT LAWSUIT !!!
Company seeks $8.5 million from Liberals for use of Green Shift name
The Canadian Press
OTTAWA — A Toronto firm is suing the federal Liberal party for more than $8 million and demanding it cease using the firm’s name “Green Shift” for its carbon-tax plan.
Green Shift Inc. owner Jennifer Wright personally delivered a statement of claim at Liberal party headquarters today as she launched the lawsuit.
The statement says Wright is seeking $8.5 million for “general and special damages” and a further $250,000 for aggravated and punitive damages.
The lawsuit seeks a court injunction to stop the party from using or displaying the words Green Shift, or any other trademark or Internet domain name that is similar to the logo used by Green Shift, which has had its trademark registered since 2003.
The Liberal party has so far ignored Wright’s demands to stop using the firm’s name.
……………………………….
Garth .. have you been ‘named’ in the lawsuit …??!!!
I’m a federal MP. I will stand up against those who threaten the country’s future. Get it? — Garth
How ironic that you and your shortsighted comments are a bigger threat to Canada’s future than the seccessionists.
Funny how the liberal party is broke now that they can’t steal anymore from us through Adscam.
C’mon folks, ring those phones! The money will end up in the Conservative Parties bank account after the 3.5 million dollar lawsuit but don’t worry about that.
Give till it hurts.
It really is too bad that you didn’t show a little grace in this, Garth. If you had left the apology as just that with the first bulleted item yesterday, that would be just fine. But you just couldn’t resist rambling on and getting the boot in on all fronts in truly Harperesque fashion. I really like Mr Dion and regret the damage all of your flailing around is doing.
Jim Muldowney
Edmonton
Yeah we’re serious Garth. Davies and Lolonde simply vocalized that the liberal party NEP was designed to damage Alberta’s economy.
That’s the policy that saw people lose their jobs and houses out here Garth.
And it was deliberate. That was it’s intent, or so the liberals admitted.
Who knows, maybe they were lying, liberals have been known to do that.
Do you really think that people forget losing their houses because of a deliberately malicious liberal policy?
Do you think they will sit by and watch it happen again?
The liberal party plays one region off against the others, that’s pretty obvious.
This new NEP will do the same thing, Dion admitted it will hurt the west disproportionately.
So how can you support it if you claim to be defending the unity of Canada?
You can make your simple little snide remarks Garth, I guess that’s all you’ve got because you can’t answer the basic question of how you can claim to defend Canada yet support divisive liberal policies.
That’s a toughie, huh?
If you think a revenue-netral climate change policy debate proposed by the oppostion leader is a dire threat, you seriously need a hug. **Here ya go.** — Garth
More disgusting WHORES, on both sides of the aisle.
MPs took donations from firm in RCMP deal
No wonder they rarely give a damn what the people think. Our pockets are just not deep enough to be of interest.
Garth
Take heart in the fact that all Albertans are not ignorant. A lot of us know that you are not any of the things that the press and the rednecks are calling you. Why can they not do their homework. It takes only a little intelligence to realize that what you said did not insult 99.9 percent of us. The .1 percent had it coming. Keep up the good work!!!
By slg on 07.09.08 8:46 am
Loved that collection of racist and sexist quotes from the past. Truly wonderful.
Ah, yes, the lovely Darryl Stinson.
I remember his courageous stand in the House of Commons, with his brylcreemed hair looking every inch a fast-forward 50’s kinda guy.
“Do you have the (slight hestitation) GONADS to come over here and say that?”
Oh, such class and finesse.
Almost as good as Harpo and his “screwed” remark. They must have the same elocution coach.
——–
I noticed that Stephane Dion was looking pretty sharp in his white Stetson in Calgary. There was a picture in the Globe.
What a contrast to Harper in the black hat and too small leather vest.
Black hat…white hat…hmmmm.
Do I detect a little symbolism here?
snip
“We need a Comedy party of Canada,
snip
By Marc on 07.08.08 9:16 pm
We already have one. It is called the Rhinoceros Party of Canada…
Put the “Party” back into Canadian politics!
Join it NOW!
http://www.rhinoparty.com/
(smile)
By brain on 07.09.08 11:45 am
By brain on 07.09.08 11:56 am
As for China and Kyoto, I suggest you read this link in full Harry and come back to us as to why China would be a top pick to trade carbon credits with under Kyoto.
Please explain.
And if you wish to go on about China/Kyoto loopholes, here’s one for you. If China recieves Kyoto carbon credits to fund projects for carbon sequestering, legally at this point it could be argued that China has now become an ANNEX 1 nation. The loophole you cling onto is a temporary one at best from a legal standpoint.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol
Give it a read buddy and then give it a rest.
…………………………………
Sure, sure brain … and stop trying to mislead the forum by throwing sand in our eyes..!!
Just answer these valid questions:
1. Why does Canada need a Carbon Tax??
2. Why is Canada 30% behind in our Kyoto treaty obligations??
3. If Canada was not 30% behind our Kyoto targets would we still need a Dion Liberal Carbon Tax??
4. Should Canadians give the Liberals a second chance to “get it done” after refusing to make Kyoto a ‘priority’ for 10 years..??
We are waiting for your insightful comments, brain .. go for it … we are waiting …..
And today’s big story? Harper is going to have to explain to Canadians why he cancelled the building of the Maple leaf reactors, forcing a 1.6 billion dollar lawsuit from MDS. Bloggers predicted this coming on this site in spades.
Harper and his fourth tier cabinet ministers blow it again.
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20080709%2fMDS_AECL_080709
Its bad enough that Harper had to purposely weaken AECL by getting rid of Linda Keen to shuttle the building of the maple reactors in a bid to weaken and try to sell off the our federal nuclear crown corp by running it into the ground. Predictable. Now it looks like we’ll have to fork over 1.6 billion worth of taxpayers dollars to a U.S. corp due to incredible degree’s of stupidity/greed/incompetance (wonder what kind of kickbacks are coming for this one for our U.S. multinational sellout Harper party).
Shameful. Again.
This one doesn’t pass the smell test and we have to wonder why? This is all a part of the so called hidden agenda from Harper with his days as president of the NCC. The privatization of all federal crowns/boards/services are on the National Citizens Coalition hitlist (of which Harper was president from late 97′ to late 01′) of what to privatize and destroy at the federal level.
Again, a disappointment that Canadians don’t know the true agenda with Harper.
http://nationalcitizens.ca/cgi-bin/oms.cgi?rm=show_category&cid=1
Busting unions, destroying the wheat board monopoly OF WESTERN FARMERS (not government), buying elections, Americanizing Bill C-51 for HMO’s, privatizing canadian healthcare….
http://nationalcitizens.ca/cgi-bin/oms.cgi?rm=show_product&pid=2
Weakening the house of commons representation creating U.S. political gridlock with a money bought elected senate, privatized CBC, militant buying for U.S. defense corps, reappealing gag laws for U.S. multinationals to fund political parties to buy elections with media propaganda, 100% U.S. takeover of Canadian media through the end of CRTC censorship (which keeps 30% of all media content Canadian), destroying bilingualism, destroying the elections act that see’s taxpayers sponsoring political parties at 1.75 per vote so that it becomes a pissing contest in terms of which party can raise the most dough from corporations (and be beholden to corporate lobbies foreign and domestic until our doom as it is with the U.S.), it goes on and on and on, this ugly playbook for U.S. takeover of market share of every sector of this nation, protected or otherwise.
Welcome to Harpers agenda. C’mon, readers, time to send the most powerful U.S. corporate lobbyist that now sits in the PM’s chair, on his way. Lets just be nice about it, fire him on election day and send him on a southern river where the neo Republican belongs.
Prominent Liberals who gave ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the Liberal Party in 2007:
1. Belinda Stronach
2. Denis Coderre
3. Garth Turner
4. Ralph Goodale
5. Martha Hall Findlay
6. Wayne Easter
7. Dominic Leblanc
8. Mauril Belanger
9. David McGuinty
10. Keith Martin
Prominent Liberals who gave LESS THAN HALF THE MAXIMUM ($1100)
1. Michael Ignatieff ($462.60)
2. Ruby Dhalla ($462.56)
3. Hedy Fry ($382.24)
4. Paul Szabo ($255.27)
Gord.
what you are saying
By brain on 07.09.08 11:45 am
The poll says is Cdns want aggressive change to combat the rising price of fossil fuels. The question has nothing to do with climate change ergo it has nothing to do with how Cdns feel about climate change tax, but you`re right. I drew the conclusion Cdns would balk at a tax from the recent majority of the people of BC rejecting the BC carbon tax.
Funny how Garth calls Albertains losers and you call BCers money grubbers but we`re supposed to blindly follow Ontario down the road of economic self destruction as the result of decades of bad government decisions. I`m not even sure why Ontarians would want to continue on that path let alone drag the rest of the country down with it. Perhaps I just really don`t understand the Liberal heartland of Canada.
Please show where I called Albertains losers. Or shut. — Garth
Alberta has generously supplied oil to the rest of Canada for years so in a few years when there is no more drinkable water in the provence I propose we give them FREE OF CHARGE two barrels of water for every barrel of oil they have sent us before charging them the going rate of $136 a barrel or the market price at that time.
What can be more generous then that? No reason we can’t be best bud’s again is there?
By William Dahl on 07.09.08 8:49 am
Remember that Alberta does not supply all of Canada. In fact, the NEP did not apply beyond central Canada. It was not “national” in scope in spite of the name.
Garth, why are you deleting my posts? Free speech for Garth but not for those who disagree?
Why are you censoring information?
You got trapped in the filter, babe. Try again. — Garth
By Bill-Muskoka on 07.09.08 12:13 pm
I won’t sweat $500 personal donations, Bill but the rest of the article is disturbing.
By Leasa on 07.09.08 7:19 am
Actually, it shows that the jobs demand out there in Alberta is so strong, kids are leaving school to make a buck.
The intelligent ones are staying in school and looking toward a future that involves more than manual labour.
Personally, I think we should encourage our youth to seek higher education, or a trained trade. There are small towns everywhere where unemloyment is huge to to their short term vision and lack of job skills.
We, the taxpayers, also pay huge amounts on job re-training… for their short sightedness.
I guess literacy is not high on some people’s priority list.
But it isn’t revenue neutral for the West.
You know that, or you should.
Dion admitted it himself.
So Mr. Defender Of Canada’s Unity, put on your red spandex suit with the big G on the chest and whip over to Dion’s crib and tell him to cut out this nonsense. Don’t use any harsh language, apparently he get the vapours and might faint if you use the word screw or insane.
And give him a hug when you’re done, he likes that.
Or explain how you can claim to defend Canada’s unity while pushing the central plank in a liberal election campaign that happens to be very divisive.
You can’t seem to answer that Garth.
Why is that?
Odd how an MP who claims to defend Canada can’t answer a simple little question from a dumb ol’ redneck like me.
You got trapped in the filter, babe. Try again. — Garth
Did you seriously just call a woman, “babe”? Is that what you call Belinda and Martha in caucus? Incroyable.
She’s actually a non-specific bionic creation of the PMO. — Garth
Whatever happened to
“… All you need is love,
Ta da da da da
All you need is love
Ta da da da da
All you need is love, love,
Love is all you need…”
Sure could use more here!
Please show where I called Albertans losers. Or shut. — Garth
You keep denying yet you admit you call western separatists losers. You have defined western separatists as Albertains. You have defined western separatists as losers and in fact the majority of western separatists are Albertains. If you were just referring to all western separatists and not just Albertains you would have mentioned BC as we are catching up fast but you limited your comments on western separatists to Albertains.
Isn`t that a fair evaluation
Did I pass the test, can I move on to the next question?
No. I took on those Albertans on this blog who talk secession. If you want to include BC secessionists, too, fine. You are a tiny, virulent, destructive force. Most Westerners, I’m sure, are embarrassed at your bleatings. — Garth
We definately need people who, in the crunch, will stand up for Canada and that means all of Canada not just certain regions or special interests. Paying lip service to the slogan “Stand Up for Canada” is meaningless when people cater to those interests that could care less about this country and its people.
It is amazing that when it comes to the really defending Canada Conservatives and Liberals alike have a tendency to wimp out. While at times Garth makes statements that are clearly over the top it is refreshing that he has the courage to defend Canada even when we know that he will be attacked by the anti-Canadian elements that lurk on various websites.
It is too bad that Garth is a Liberal. He would be a good candidate for a pro-Canadian political movement.
FYI – John Gormley
Gormley will be interviewing the proprietor of Greenshift Inc. (Ltd.?) regarding her suit against the Liberal party at 11:30 CST, or about half an hour from now. You can listen on-line at
http://www.newstalk650.com/
and phone in if you like at 1-877-332-8255
His 1st interview today was Garth Turner. It will be available on the same site later today – follow the “On Demand” links.
By Harry S on 07.09.08 12:32 pm
“Sure, sure brain … and stop trying to mislead the forum by throwing sand in our eyes..!!” – Harry S
No misleads, Harry S. You’re the only one doing it and I called you on it. Tough titty.
Just answer these valid questions:
1. Why does Canada need a Carbon Tax??
Geez, I dunno, because were 30% behind on our Kyoto requirments? Because as innovative Canadians, we can do it? Because we love our children and grandchildren? Because we value life as priceless? Because we get it with climate change?
Why is it that you believe do nothing policy shows “great leadership” there, wise one (lol).
2. Why is Canada 30% behind in our Kyoto treaty obligations??
Geez, I dunno, because we’ve got fruitloop propagandists that claim “separation” frothing at the mouth if we do? Because we’ve got a do nothing government that is boast and bluster full of hot air? Because we’ve got a U.S. lobbyist for a PM (and opposition as well, I might add) and yes, Harry, I’ll give it to you. We had an elitist Martin that didn’t want your precious oil corps to spend extra bucks. Well, its time to get with the times and buck up, Harry. Good leadership is around the corner.
3. If Canada was not 30% behind our Kyoto targets would we still need a Dion Liberal Carbon Tax??
Duh, Geez, I dunno Harry, what do you think? The feds could have done plenty over the last decade. They could have increased MPG manufacturers auto/truck standards. They could have come out with an home energy program that tackled the ugly truth of wasteful consumption with existing furnaces (including brand new ones that most people buy not knowing much better exists with heat to water to air furnace exchangers). They could have taken climate change and our role in leading by a clean example more seriously and quit counting beans, the very reasons why Garth Turner ran again, exists and runs this site… and from what I can tell, you have no love and kind for this mans motives.
Tell me, Harry. What is it that you’ve done for climate change? What is it that you’ve done to encourage Canada to produce less GHG’s? What is it that makes your own propaganda so special?
4. Should Canadians give the Liberals a second chance to “get it done” after refusing to make Kyoto a ‘priority’ for 10 years..??
They signed off on Kyoto, didn’t they? They’ve come up with a Green plan to force big polluters to clean up their act… didn’t they? They’ve gotten it together and rebuilt this party right under your nose dude and you wanna continue to defend Harper, the obvious U.S. multinational lobbyist as having a better way! LMAO!!!
Keep drinking more of that blue koolaid, dude, like I say, you’re good for comic relief (from time to time, otherwise, its a bit dry).
Ok folks reread my post and put on your humour caps.
Hint: calculate how much free water we owe then look at the price we charge.
Still think we should get along though.
And I’m the one two hours late for bed!!! I suspect Garth got it. Surprised no one else did.
By got rope? on 07.09.08 12:36 pm
Funny how Garth calls Albertains losers and you call BCers money grubbers but we`re supposed to blindly follow Ontario down the road of economic self destruction as the result of decades of bad government decisions. I`m not even sure why Ontarians would want to continue on that path let alone drag the rest of the country down with it. Perhaps I just really don`t understand the Liberal heartland of Canada.
Please show where I called Albertains losers. Or shut. — Garth
And please show where I called BCers money grubbers, I’d like to hear that too! “I’m not even sure…” “I just really dont’ understand…
I’ll agree with that much from you.
Well… I’ve got some things to do today, the oil bought/brainwashed propagandists are just going to have to froth at the mouth for the rest of the day without me.
To the rest of us decent, good willed fellow Canadian patriots out there, have a great day!!!! 
“Stand Up for Canada” is meaningless when people cater to those interests that could care less about this country and its people.
C. B. on 07.09.08 12:57 pm
Couldn`t agree more CB.
Not one single politician is standing up for the future of Canada, our children. We have the highest number of parent denied children in our history. Vancouver is leading the way and as I predicted that generation is just old enough to start flooding the streets as the latest Vancouver crime figures show mischief up 38%. That`s the generation I`ve been warning about and the results are in. The next 5 years will make the last 5 years of job losses in Ontario look minor in comparison.
By C. B. Innes on 07.09.08 12:57 p
“It is too bad that Garth is a Liberal. He would be a good candidate for a pro-Canadian political movement.” – CBI
I’ve loved your posts this last month or more, but you know I can’t always agree with you. Pro-Canadian political movements… I think Garth is already in one.
Funny how Garth calls Albertains losers and you call BCers money grubbers but we`re supposed to blindly follow Ontario down the road of economic self destruction as the result of decades of bad government decisions. I`m not even sure why Ontarians would want to continue on that path let alone drag the rest of the country down with it. Perhaps I just really don`t understand the Liberal heartland of Canada.
Please show where I called Albertains losers. Or shut. — Garth
By got rope? on 07.09.08 12:36 pm
Excuse me rope. Where in Garths blog has he ever called Albertans losers? Or Quebecers for that matter? Now be honest & admit that he didn’t. Just the 1% blow hards that want to separate.
Good Day Traitor
Isn’t there an expiry date stamp on this ridiculous controversy being consigned to being part of past history?
Ed the Hun writes in part:
Those people are elected members of the Alberta Legislature and have a contingency plan that will go into effect the moment that there is any suggestion that a liberal party will become the government in Ottawa.
There are many steps to the plan, the last being the separation question. Oh yes, there is a referendum in-wait that will ask Albertans (given certain minimum residency requirements) whether they want to see their economy and livelihood sacrificed on the alter of serving the same old powers-to-be located in central Canada (the same ones who through the the national government resulted in all of the country having to support the development of industry, even at the expense of their own best interest
=====================================
Ed, you forget that unlike American States, Canada’s Provinces are constitutional formed by and products of the Federal Government which is the exact opposite to America. Hence, it follows that for any Province, Alberta included, can not just legally say we will go out on our own. Incidentally, 3 of the American States have attempted to secede and failed to accomplish it.
The resources of all provinces and territories are deemed to belong to the Crown and are granted to these entities for “management purposes”. Should you attempt to “go it alone” as you say, it will be an interesting case of TREASON which will be precedent setting at the Supreme Court level, I predict.
Such suggestions of “we will just go it alone” are simply expressions of immature frustration from elitist political light weights, not in tune with reality. You have a duty, obligation , and responsibility to the nation as a whole. Your provincial entity could at the judgment of a majority of Canadians and politicians be “folded” into a larger regional government that replaces 3 or 4 provincial governments for reasons of efficiency and economics. Political boundaries and resources management are not carved in stone, to bowed down to as graven edicts!
Also the “Millstones of the gods grind exceedingly slow and fine”. Caveat Emptor for political hype.
please show where I called BCers money grubbers,
brain on 07.09.08 1:07 pm
I can do that.
“Canadians won’t do dick for climate change if it costs them financially, that its “all about the money””
That`s the people of BC rejecting the BC carbon tax you`re referring to as the`re the only ones to speak up so far. I didn`t say anything of the kind, you did. Putting words in others mouths is a cleaver way of saying what`s on your mind while still retaining deniability. Deny it and prove my point.
So Garth, you can’t answer the simple question of how you claim to defend Canada’s unity and at the same time support Dion’s Green Shaft which is clearly divisive and which Dion admitted will be much more of a burden on the west than the east.
That’s sad.
Out here in John Deere country we call that milking the goat from both ends.
Yeehaw!
Gord writes in part:
Prominent Liberals who gave ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the Liberal Party in 2007:
=====================================
What is your point here, Gord? Is this any of anyones business? Do you give money back to your employer for their advertising budget out of your wages?
What did other politicians of other parties do in this regard?
Now I think it would only be fair for you to declare what you gave to which political party! I did not give any thing to any party, and am not that loose with my money!
Prominent Liberals who gave ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the Liberal Party in 2007:
1. Belinda Stronach
2. Denis Coderre
3. Garth Turner
4. Ralph Goodale
5. Martha Hall Findlay
6. Wayne Easter
7. Dominic Leblanc
8. Mauril Belanger
9. David McGuinty
10. Keith Martin
Prominent Liberals who gave LESS THAN HALF THE MAXIMUM ($1100)
1. Michael Ignatieff ($462.60)
2. Ruby Dhalla ($462.56)
3. Hedy Fry ($382.24)
4. Paul Szabo ($255.27)
Gord
Yes, and 31 other Liberal MPs gave zero, zip (how liberal of them!!). That’s a little more than 40% of the Liberal caucus who gave nothing, nothing to their great party (these 10 + 31). Also added to the four mentioned above, are sixteen others gave less than half the maximum. Add these 20 to the above 31 and you have more than 60% of liberal caucus who gave nothing or less than half.
What believers they are in their cause. Dion should send his begging letters to his caucus first of all.
I guess making at least $147,000 for the privilege of being an MP is not enough.
Garth, you’re all big talk, but it’s mighty empty… but we knew that before.
My 2007 contribution was in the form of over $4,000 spent touring Western Canada and speaking to Liberals and others, expenses which I paid for personally. In 2008 I have contributed to my maximum allowable limit of $1,100. And you? — Garth
Hey Garth, your Party has been served with an $8.5 million lawsuit by greenshift.ca for appropriating their name with thegreenshift.ca Liberal policy and website. Not very good optics.
By brain on 07.09.08 12:58 pm
Okay brain … aka Reefer Sutherland from the Big Smoke .. aka Charles Oxley .. aka Barb the proof-reader .. aka JWP .. aka PYOTR PETROBITCH .. aka several other Liberal trools from the Liberal Death Star ….!!!
You can go into your sicko flippant mode, but that won’t help you Liberals once Canadians realize that Dion is attempting to impose a punitive Carbon Tax on Canadians to mitigate the Liberal failure to hold down GHG growth in the 10 years that Chretien-Martin-Dion were the government and refused to make Kyoto a ‘priority’.
“We didn’t get it done … we didn’t get it done!!!” .. will haunt Liberals in any next election … and Canadians will most certainly not give failed Liberals another chance to get it done by carbon taxing Canadians ….!!!!
I won’t sweat $500 personal donations, Bill but the rest of the article is disturbing.
By brain on 07.09.08 12:44 pm
Yes, it most certainly is. Even my 5 y.o. grandson could easily connect the dots.
Rope,
you promised that “Spare a Dime” was going to be your last change of name on this blog. Why are you now using Rope again?
Personally I don’t care, but some people might assume that multiple names mean multiple personalities.
“He stood up once to the self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first, greedy, macho, selfish and balkanizing separatist losers in Quebec. I guess he can do it again in Alberta.”
I don’t agree with the liberal tax and spend plan. That doesn’t make me a self aggrandizing, hostile, me first, greedy, macho, and selfish. You have a habit of calling people who don’t agree with you names. Doesn’t help your case.
Alberta produces more of the GHG. Let them clean it up. How come they need the liberals to make them? Why should this be up to you to force the issue? Your belief that you know how to take care of Alberta better than they can is what pisses people off.
“the misquotes and the feigned outrage are just ploys to shut you down because your blog makes a mockery of the MSM. ?Way to go Garth-Esther was right!”
BY CALBERTA 07.08.08 8:29 PM
“should have ignored the noise coming from those sphincters. They aren’t worth paying attention to”
BY ED BROOKS 07.08.08 9:35 PM
Calberta and Ed,
And the U.S. endured the powerful neocon dirt machine for quite some time, as did other parts of the world. Canadians are getting past the introductory stage of these bombardments [as seen in Garth’s blog every day, all day] by Con trolls trying to misappropriate truth. Trolls beat drums about being Westerner secessionists, not to mention their lies and exaggerations about the world wide recession in the 80’s being their sole burden.
We’ll see continued bombardments in blogs, news comment sections, publicly-funded abusive flyers and media ads. Although well-documented, and just plain obvious, the Cons “deny the truth” or “smear the messengers and experts” campaigns, are carried out by a few, to reach, dis-inform, and sway the voters – the voters that Harper claims are “uninformed” and “apathetic”. [No doubts. Harper will continue to try and De-Inform, using his clan of deniers.]
But overall public recognition of, and subsequent disdain, does not always reach a tipping point soon enough. For instance, obviously it remained effective just long enough to get Bush elected for a 2nd term – and that’s what Harper is still smugly banking on. The U.S. dirt machine’s last hurrah, Swiftboating, won the infamous election of 2004 despite the turning tide. [Plenty of officials warn the 2008 election will be tripped up by Republican electronic voting machine fraud, but that’s another story].
Are we at the point where enough people’s instincts were aroused? Personally, I hope Canadians really are different than Americans, and the screechy voices of the manipulative Con trolls, and Harpy, only serve as reinforcement of their demise.
Garth congratulate Dion on making a difference. I read the Calgary Herald and Edmonton journal on my semi-regular cross country check up on the news and they have gone from hostile attacks on anything about the environment to tripping over themselves praising all the new green ideas of the Alberta government in just a week!!!! The fun part is they let the cat out of the bag every time on Harpers next moves.
Funny how Garth calls Albertains losers and you call BCers money grubbers but…”
I have to be honest, the illiteracy level of posters such as the one quoted above is astounding.
NOWHERE did Mr. Turner call Albertians and Quebecois losers.
He called SEPARATISTS losers.
And rightly so!
To think people who can’t comprehend what they read are still permitted to vote. No wonder we ended up with the Harper Goon Squad.
There is no doubt Harper counts on stupid people to succeed. Perhaps Harpers next campaign slogan should be “Thank you for not paying attention”
Intelligent people would never vote for Harper and his goon squad of liars
Stupid people scare me.
Perhaps if you actually practiced what you preached, people would accept you at your word. However, the above post just proves you are all talk and very little action.
I didn’t decide to change parties. And that is a fine quote. Have you emailed it to Mr. Emerson lately? — Garth
By Platty on 07.08.08 8:36 pm
Good one, Garth! And to Platty…most of us DO accept Garth at his word. He is one of the few politicians I trust, and I hope Dion appreciates him as we do.
—————–
To me the misquotes and the feigned outrage are just ploys to shut you down because your blog makes a mockery of the MSM
Way to go Garth-Esther was right!
By Calberta on 07.08.08 8:29 pm
Bears repeating.
From “got rope”:
Please show where I called Albertans losers. Or shut. — Garth
You keep denying yet you admit you call western separatists losers. You have defined western separatists as Albertains. You have defined western separatists as losers and in fact the majority of western separatists are Albertain
Hey Rope. All dogs have 4 legs. My table has 4 legs. I guess that means my table must be a dog. Seems to me thats the type of false logic your trying to apply.
Yes seperatists are losers according to garth. Yes western seperatists are from the western provinces (Alberta and in some cases BC). That does not equate to all people from the west as being losers.
It seems to me the sheep that swallow the half truths, misconceptions, and lies that make up most conservative talking points really aren’t very bright!
As long as they’re not racist, I think we should go easy on separatists. Yes it’s important to call their arguments bullocks, but it’s wrong to attack them personally.
Just look at Stephane Dion, he was a separatist when he was a kid, but he got over it. Granted, there wasn’t some Ontarian in his face screaming ‘loser!’ – I imagine that wouldn’t have helped.
Hey, welcome to the sunlight. — Garth
Stupid people scare me.
By Ben on 07.09.08 2:02 pm
Don’t let them do so. Remember what Scar said ‘Help! I’m surrounded by idiots!’
They walk amongst us, breed, and vote. Life and people are imperfect, some are entertaining, and some scarey, some should be treated like Cellophane Man because you can see right through them.
I believe the Federal Government has done a fair job of containing this movement.
You have degraded all the people who support those ideals. This could push some to the Bloc side if for no other reason than anger. Everyone does not agree with Liberal, Conservative, NDP and Green party policies but they do not have a right to dismiss them with the use of labels or name calling.
One would think a person of your status and knowledge would realize that even though we disagree with these individuals values does not make them any less a Canadian than the rest of us.
By David Halfkenny on 07.09.08 11:55 am
So you think pouring money into the Quebec coffers during a provincial election campaign is the way to “contain this movement?” Now how much do you think they should demand this year?
If separatists are losers, why is Dion pushing this plan that will foster separatist sentiment in the west?
Why was Dion against a carbon tax in his leadership race?
What changed?
It’s now politically expedient for the liberals to attack Alberta and promise the loot to the voters in the east.
In the leadership race that wasn’t an issue.
This is just more sleazy politics from the Liberal Party Of Toronto.
Yawn.
Still waiting for an answer to how Garth can claim to be the defender of Canada yet defends this very divisive policy.
Gee, seems the usual CONs are trying another CON with this BS bruhaha over a joke.
Here it is. You decide?
DELETED
To Barb the Proof Reader: You accuse me of falling for the spell of the Conservatives
Fact:
- last Alberta election I voted for Dave Taylor (Calgary – Currie). He’s a Liberal
Good try attempting to pin my opinions on some political party. Typical too, both Con’s and Lib’s love doing that as if I’m a sheep and can’t think for myself. All politicians suck.
Funny, the last time a government told me a tax would be neutral was when they introduced the GST (PC, Garth was a standing member at the time). The GST was revenue neutral, right ?
And me? Very strange question to ask? Why would you think that an ordinary citizen, such as myself, would contribute to a party who has acted as the Liberals have in the past couple of decades… lies, criminal activities, breaking promises, etc. Liberal behaviour in the House of Commons is abomitable, all anger and screaming. No, I, and it appears millions of other Canadians, are not interested in contributing to such a party. And, it appears that the majority of liberal caucus feel likewise.
No, I meant to your own dear Conservative Party, of course. I hear they need the cash. — Garth
“There is no doubt Harper counts on stupid people — Harpers next campaign slogan should be “Thank you for not paying attention”. Intelligent people would never vote for Harper and his goon squad of liars. Stupid people scare me” ~by BEN 2:02 PM
Ben, I totally agree.
And all Harper has to do is alert his neocon puppies to come and pee all over the work of the most experienced and informed people in their fields.
I just hope the owner of “Greenshift” has a spare million dollars in her bank account .
When she loses this vexatious lawsuit she will be adjudged,by the courts,to owe the entire Liberal parties expenses and cost of fighting this nonsense .
Of course we already know that CRAP is financing this lawsuit .
Stupid bastards !
Rope,
you promised that “Spare a Dime” was going to be your last change of name on this blog. Why are you now using Rope again?
Personally I don’t care, but some people might assume that multiple names mean multiple personalities.
By Herb on 07.09.08 1:49 pm
Yes,Herb multiple personality disorder is frightening ,
Rope has an entire chorus of voices in his cranium and he is never sure which one will take over .
Sad really .
Good Day Traitor
By Irene on 07.09.08 1:13 pm
Supporting decades of government corruption that has already put Ontario on the skids with the rest of Canada following is treason. That shows you don`t have the moral authority to call anyone traitor or even loser.
My day is good, how`s yours?
Just imagine … if Canada had controlled it’s GHG emission over the 10 years of Liberal government, we wouldn’t need a $15 Billion Carbon Tax for the next 4 years ..!!!
By Harry S on 07.08.08 9:22 pm
Are you coceding the next election?
By Ben on 07.09.08 2:02 pm
There is no doubt Harper counts on stupid people to succeed. Perhaps Harpers next campaign slogan should be “Thank you for not paying attention”
Intelligent people would never vote for Harper and his goon squad of liars
Stupid people scare me.
………………………………..
But Ben … doesn’t Dion also depend on the stupidity of Canadians to vote for his Green Shift and welcome Carbon Taxation ..??
If Canada was not 30% over it’s 2012 Kyoto GHG target, Canada would not need to be carbon taxed .. we would be on target.
The Chretien-Martin-Dion Liberal governments allowed Canada’s GHGs to skyrocket to 32% above our Kyoto targets … and now Dion is proposing to Carbon Tax Canadians to mitigate past Liberal government negligence.
Liberals “didn’t get it done”, so why should Canadians give Dion a second chance to make Kyoto a ‘priority’ and impose a punitive Carbon Tax on everything..??!!!!
That would be stupid to reward Dion for his past failures that has gotten Canada into this Kyoto mess .. and now Dion’s solution is a Carbon Tax …!!!
No. I took on those Albertans on this blog who talk secession. If you want to include BC secessionists, too, fine. You are a tiny, virulent, destructive force. Most Westerners, I’m sure, are embarrassed at your bleatings. — Garth
By got rope? on 07.09.08 12:56 pm
Absolutely . You can count me in that column .
Conservative MPs took donations from firm in RCMP deal
BILL GRIMSHAW FOR THE TORONTO STAR
A Leiken Group sign in an Ottawa suburb last month promotes vacant land for development adjacent to a former JDS Uniphase building now leased by the RCMP, seen in the background. July 11, 2008
Poilievre letter to Public Works minister (.pdf) Developers tied to move of national police headquarters contributed to Baird, Poilievre
Jul 09, 2008 10:58 AM
Comments on this story (11)
Allan Woods
Ottawa Bureau
OTTAWA–Senior Conservatives have taken almost $8,000 in political donations from two firms set to reap a windfall from the relocation of the RCMP headquarters.
A Star investigation shows close connections between a $600 million deal that will see the national police force move to a suburb of the capital and Environment Minister John Baird and Pierre Poilievre, the parliamentary secretary to the Treasury Board.
Along with National Revenue Minister Gordon O’Connor and Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, Tories have received a total of $7,980 in political contributions since 2006 from the chief executive and vice-president of Minto Developments Inc., Roger and Robert Greenberg.
…it just never ends with the hypocracy. Ya, the MSM out west can use all the time and paper to do partisan attacks, but I thought it was the duty of a honest journalist with integrity to be the voice of the people and report the news and facts.
My 2007 contribution was in the form of over $4,000 spent touring Western Canada and speaking to Liberals and others, expenses which I paid for personally. — Garth
Garth, thats against the law. You are not allowed to contribute more than $1100 even if you pay your own expenses.
You had better delete all references to your over spending before Elections Canada gets hold of this news. Oh yah, don’t worry, its just the cons that have to be financially accountable to that partisan group.
Nice swing, big miss. — Garth
some people might assume that multiple names mean multiple personalities.
By Herb on 07.09.08 1:49 pm
You made a statement that the Libs should be immediately put back in power and after that happens they will give us the program. That sense of entitlement often represents egomaniacal delusions of grandeur. You really that good Herb?
Could it be that this whole five-day tempest in a teapot about just whom Garth called “self-aggrandizing, hostile, me-first, greedy, macho, selfish and balkanizing separatist losers” was fired up to distract and alienate from Dion’s Carbon Tax and Western tour?
One of Leasa’s shiny objects on a grand, neo-Republican scale!
ERASE THE DISGRACE – ÉCRASEZ L’INFÂMIE!
No, I meant to your own dear Conservative Party, of course. I hear they need the cash. — Garth
They are not my own dear Conservative Party… and I understand they are quite flush with cash right now.
Seriously, is the Liberal Party going bankrupt?
Garth, why are you deleting my posts? Free speech for Garth but not for those who disagree?
Why are you censoring information?
You got trapped in the filter, babe. Try again. — Garth
By Janice on 07.09.08 12:38 pm
Maybe because you are a blithering idiot with nothing to contribute but far right wing dogma and ideology .
Get over it moron .
Liberals “didn’t get it done”, so why should Canadians give Dion a second chance to make Kyoto a ‘priority’ and impose a punitive Carbon Tax on everything..??!!!!
That would be stupid to reward Dion for his past failures that has gotten Canada into this Kyoto mess .. and now Dion’s solution is a Carbon Tax …!!!
By Harry S on 07.09.08 3:11 pm
It is all about ABC Harry, we cannot continue to have a lying and deceiving PM running the country. Harper has been to total opposite of what he promised and you want to reward him for that?
Guess you don’t live in Burlington since you never acknowledged my invitation for coffee!
Yes,Herb multiple personality disorder is frightening ,
Rope has an entire chorus of voices in his cranium and he is never sure which one will take over .
Sad really .
By Men With Hats on 07.09.08 3:05 pm
Hey no picking on my friend Rope!!!
Here’s a thought…
One poster yestarday mentioned that Alberta and Saskatchewan, have only 13% of the countries population, emit 40% of the GHG’s.
Now the PM, has just agreed with the G8 to cut GHG’s by 50% by 2050.
I won’t enter into the discussion of too little, too late, or on what basis will the numbers be calculated, or what are the intermediate targets.
But for all you who are attacking Mr. Dion’s Green Shift plan, without suggesting alternatives; even under Mr. Harper’s plan, Alberta and Saskatchewan are going to be the heaviest hit as they are going to have to make the deepest cuts. (or will the tar sands be all used up by then and GHG emissions will fall due to natural causes?)
Or is it a case that Mr. Harper’s 2050 plan is an SEP as opposed to a NEP, that is SomeoneElses Problem?
Ah well come Jan., Mr. Harper will lose another one of his GHG allies and maybe next year the G8 will show some real leadership! Better results may happen if we have an election before next years G8!
Out here in John Deere country we call that milking the goat from both ends.
Yeehaw!
By Stan on 07.09.08 1:20 pm
Just another moron hillbilly from red neck central .
most conservative talking points really aren’t very bright!
By Joe in NB on 07.09.08 2:04 pm
Thinking I`m a Conservative isn`t very bright which is why you need help discerning the Ontario thinkers from the perceived by Garth, Albertain losers. Western separatists are still Cdns so any slag is a slag against all Cdns. Perhaps Garth will piss off the realtors next or maybe the pet shops or furniture stores, you can help him distinguish between them.
btw how did your table get covered in so much hair you thought it was your dog?
Gord writes in part:
Prominent Liberals who gave ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the Liberal Party in 2007:
=====================================
What is your point here, Gord? Is this any of anyones business?
By James R. McGillawee on 07.09.08 1:38 pm
Point is to bash Liberals…
Seriously, is the Liberal Party going bankrupt?
By kip on 07.09.08 3:21 pm
Do you honestly care?
I just hope the owner of “Greenshift” has a spare million dollars in her bank account .
When she loses this vexatious lawsuit she will be adjudged,by the courts,to owe the entire Liberal parties expenses and cost of fighting this nonsense .
Of course we already know that CRAP is financing this lawsuit .
Stupid bastards !
By Men With Hats on 07.09.08 2:58 pm
Have you been reading my mind this afternoon:>) I had a fleeting thought that the neocons might be financing this lawsuit and that she must be a confirmed neocon given her response. I decided not to post on that thought.
I find it hard to believe that she didn’t get any more business from this noteriety. I am sure that if I had needed any of her products in the future, I would have thought of her company. Of course with her reaction, not now.
“Now the PM, has just agreed with the G8 to cut GHG’s by 50% by 2050.”
The so called 50% reduction is smoke and mirrors and that’s a fact.
The reason? NO WHERE did Harpo specify 50% from what!
50% of 1995 emissions?
50% of 2001 emissions?
50% of 2008 emissions?
Nothing specified. Just 50%.
Meaningless B.S. from a liar.
Nothing here but a bald faced LIE.
And that is a FACT.
Maybe because you are a blithering idiot with nothing to contribute but far right wing dogma and ideology .
Get over it moron .
By Men With Hats on 07.09.08 3:23 pm
That was a meaningful comment. You sound like your one of the lost boys from Neverland. Thats ok, just find your happy thought.
Just another moron hillbilly from red neck central .
By Men With Hats on 07.09.08 3:26 pm
You’re just full of debating skills are you. Take your meds now.
“We didn’t get it done … we didn’t get it done!!!” .. will haunt Liberals in any next election … and Canadians will most certainly not give failed Liberals another chance to get it done by carbon taxing Canadians ….!!!!
By Harry S on 07.09.08 1:43 pm
Taxing the income trusts?
“A Conservative gov’t will never let either party get away with it”.
Even steven.
James from Chatham
Alberta & Sask create the most GHG because of the use of Natural Gas in the extraction of bitumen in the oil sands. They have to separate the dirt from the oil and currently use natural gas. There is alot of talk about building a nuclear plant.
As for the oil sands running “out”. There are 2 trillion barrels of oil in the sand, about 180 billion is recoverable. The tar sands have 3 times the amount of reserves as all of the middle east, just current ex/in situ extraction methods can’t get at all of it. If there is demand, they’ll dig or suck it up.
There is no doubt Harper counts on stupid people to succeed. Perhaps Harpers next campaign slogan should be “Thank you for not paying attention”
Intelligent people would never vote for Harper and his goon squad of liars
Stupid people scare me.
………………………………..
But Ben … blah blah blah
By Harry S on 07.09.08 3:11 pm
Yes Harry, I was thinking of people like you in the post you quoted.
A staunch supported of Harper in spite of the obvious lies and B.S. you are being fed by him.
You never answered my question Harry.
When the next election comes along Harry, which election promises that Harper utters will you believe?
You gonna believe any of the promises Harry? Did you believe the Income Trust LIE Harper Told in the last election Harry?
How will you separate Harpers lies from truth Harry?
Harper can not be trusted. Only stupid people would trust a proven liar.
Look into the mirror Harry. A stupid person will be looking back at you. Anyone doubting that fact need only review your stupid (bordering on insane) posts here to figure that one out.
Seek professional care Harry.
Seriously.
Out here in John Deere country we call that milking the goat from both ends.
Yeehaw!
By Stan on 07.09.08 1:20 pm
Just another moron hillbilly from red neck central .—————————
————————————
But this moron hillbilly from redneck central understands that it is illogical for Garth to present himself as the defender of Canada’s unity and at the same time promoting Dion’s clearly divisive policy.
Dion was against carbon taxes when it was politically advantageous for him to be so, and now he’s for them because he thinks he can pull another fast one on the ill-informed eastern voters.
He’s likely right. The gullibility and greed of the eastern voters is pretty much unlimited.
They’ll bite.
How’d that GST elimination go?
How that plan to tear up the free trade agreement go?
How’d that 2 million dollar gun registry pan out?
How’d the Kyoto implementation go?
Snurk.
By Ben on 07.09.08 3:34 pm
Would a 50% cut in emmission from 2008 levels be greater then a 50% cut from 1990 levels? I hopefully assume right that curent levels are higher then former levels, so if we assumed that the G8 promise of a 50% reduction of current levels, should be quite substantial.
One of Leasa’s shiny objects on a grand, neo-Republican scale!
By Herb on 07.09.08 3:20 pm
My thoughts exactly…too many rational people here are being distracted by all the bleating…
As with so many other things in life, Garth, your comments have been taken as offered.
It isn’t the responsibility of the Calgary Herald or of myself to make your thoughts clear. That’s your responsibility, and your responsibility alone.
However, once again, you seem to insist on continuing to attempt to inflate the “secessionist threat” in Alberta. It would be naive to pretend that separatists don’t exist in any Canadian province, but to treat it as some sort of menace when it is, in fact, an impotent force, would be a mistake.
You have your own Assholery blog, so make your comments there. Not my fault nobody visits. — Garth
Seriously, is the Liberal Party going bankrupt?
By kip on 07.09.08 3:21 pm
Do you honestly care?
By jwp on 07.09.08 3:33 pm
I guess I care about the same as the 93.7% of the Liberal caucus who did not contribute the maximum to their party. If they don’t care, why should I, of the ‘great unwashed’, care? (Other than Garth who donated himself to a trip out West).
MPs who Gave Full Amount
Carolyn Bennett
Scott Brison
Irwin Cotler
Ujjal Dosanjh
Mark Eyking
Karen Redman
That’s a grand total of 6 MPs giving the maximum amount ($1100) out of a total Liberal caucus of 95. As a percentage it works out to 6.3%. What great team players they are!
MPs spend lots of money on party events across the country. This tallies only those donations which were receipted. There is no meaning to these numbers. — Garth
By Ben on 07.09.08 3:34 pm
Meaningless B.S. from a liar.
Nothing here but a bald faced LIE.
And that is a FACT.
…………………………………
You may have a point there, Ben … but what about Dion’s intentions laid out in his Green Shift page 16:
Canadians know Canada won’t meet its obligations under the first phase of the Kyoto Protocol. However, the Kyoto Protocol is an ongoing international effort, and we must build momentum now in order to close that gap in the next phase of the agreement, after 2012. We believe that our target should be to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 20 per cent below 1990 levels by 2020. This should be increased to at least 25 per cent if other countries take on comparable efforts. This is in line with what the science tells us we need to do. We must achieve absolute greenhouse gas emissions reductions, and we must begin today. Canada cannot solve climate change on its own. Until we take serious action to reduce our own emissions, we will have little credibility on the global stage to ensure other countries are doing their part.
………..
Perhaps Dion should provide more than one paragraph in his 48 page Green Shift scheme to nebulous targets out to 2020 … particularly since his Green Shift carbon tax schedule only extends out 4 years to 2012.
Do you think that Dion has a “hidden agenda” attached to his Green Shift scheme come 2012 when the Liberal Rodriguez’ The Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act kicks in and mandates that Canada must meet it’s 2012 Kyoto Treaty targets.
Rather than slagging PM Harper so speciously, why don’t you focus your attention on Dion’s Green Shift ‘hidden agenda’..??!!!
Point is to bash Liberals…
By jwp on 07.09.08 3:31 pm
Yes JWP, my point was to show how Dion and the liberals are out there cap in hand begging for donations to the Victory Fund, and yet couldn’t be bothered to donate themselves.
Gord.
Still waiting for an answer to how Garth can claim to be the defender of Canada yet defends this very divisive policy.
By Stan on 07.09.08 2:23 pm
C’mon Stan you don’t really want an answer you just want a response to CRAP on.
Admit it you only have one functioning brain cell and that was downloaded from the blogging tories web site.
Your con-bot talking points are(yawn) BORING!
Rather than slagging PM Harper so speciously, why don’t you focus your attention on Dion’s Green Shift ‘hidden agenda’..??!!!
By Harry S on 07.09.08 4:00 pm
But it is far more fun bashing Harper and he supplies the ammunition as well…
That was a meaningful comment. You sound like your one of the lost boys from Neverland. Thats ok, just find your happy thought.
By Janice on 07.09.08 3:36 pm
My happy thought is a ship full of con-bots sinking to the bottom of the ocean .
Gord.
By Gord G. on 07.09.08 4:02 pm
Point was and is to bash Liberals, that is all you are about, which is okay in my book, I am here to bash the lying Harper and make no bones about it. At least I am up front about it!
C’mon Stan you don’t really want an answer you just want a response to CRAP on.
Admit it you only have one functioning brain cell and that was downloaded from the blogging tories web site.
Your con-bot talking points are(yawn) BORING!
By Calberta on 07.09.08 4:03 pm
So there no acceptable answer to Stan’s question, only one that will get CRAPped on? That’s it, that’s all you got? Given your logic, one might think Garth is scared to respond.
Gord.
By kip on 07.09.08 3:57 pm
Then by your own reasoning, you don’t care, so why take the time to point it out then…maybe you have an agenda? Maybe to bash Liberals…fine, be a man and admit it…no one has a problem with honest people.
By jwp on 07.09.08 3:23 pm
It is all about ABC Harry, we cannot continue to have a lying and deceiving PM running the country. Harper has been to total opposite of what he promised and you want to reward him for that?
…………………………………
But, jpw … Canadians love their lying and deceiving PMs … and they even gave PM Chretien 3 majority governments … but when Martin tried to extend the Liberal scam, Canadians said: “Enough is enough!!!”
So let’s give Harper at least one majority government to prove that he is a bona fide lying, deceiving PM … like Chretien … because Dion is too naive and well-intentioned to be the kind of PM Canadians prefer ….LOL
I wonder if maybe it is not reflective of the actual intelligence of the people like you so ignorantly suggest, but in fact linked to employment rates? Could that be it? My God, I think we have a real revelation here!
BY LEASA ON 07.09.08 7:19 AM
Perhaps you should check StatsCan for historical data. Dropout rates were high during economic downturns as well. The Conservatives have consistently cut education funding over the years.
The fact you read my statement incorrectly and resorted to name calling is proof as to how limited your intellect really is.
Now I think it would only be fair for you to declare what you gave to which political party! I did not give any thing to any party, and am not that loose with my money!
By James R. McGillawee on 07.09.08 1:38 pm
I joined the CONS a couple years ago and give $100.00 a year, plus my membership fee.
Gord.
Would a 50% cut in emmission from 2008 levels be greater then a 50% cut from 1990 levels? I hopefully assume right that curent levels are higher then former levels, so if we assumed that the G8 promise of a 50% reduction of current levels, should be quite substantial.
By Marc on 07.09.08 3:49 pm
Please pay attention. Harper and his goons SPECIFICALLY stated that GHG emissions would be cut by 50% by 2050 (long after they are dead and buried) and NOT ONCE did they specify 50% of what.
Do not let the dirty game that Harper plays fool you. Do not assume anything when Harper speaks. In my opinion he is a weasel.
Gee Calberta, why don’t you try answering the question instead of shooting the questioner?
Is it because you can’t answer it because there is no answer to why Garth pretends to defend Canada while promoting a clearly divisive policy?
I’m just a dumb old moron redneck hillbilly yet I see that Dion went from being against carbon taxes to being for them because he thinks that is what is best for the liberal party of Toronto.
If he was serious about the environment he would have done something when he was environment minister, but he did nothing. Hell, he even got a fossil award from an environment group that was disgusted by his inaction.
But now he’s a hero because he named his dog Kyoto and has a plan to screw the west to buy votes in the east.
Dion admitted that the West will bear the brunt of the pain in his new tax.
Why doesn’t he plan to tax gasoline as well as diesel fuel?
Would it be because he knows that those in the west uses more diesel while the east uses more gasoline?
And that he knows he isn’t getting any votes out here anyway?
But isn’t diesel better for the environment?
Then why would he tax it?
Because it isn’t about the environment, it’s about winning the next election by screwing the west and buying votes in the east with the money stolen from us.
Eastern voter greed, corruption, and ignorance.
The liberals thrive on it.
They can always count on it.
It’s always worked before, why wouldn’t it work again?
At least I am up front about it!
By jwp on 07.09.08 4:09 pm
I am a member of the CONS, I stated this a while back, so I guess you can say I am up front about it as well.
Gord.
So let’s give Harper at least one majority government to prove that he is a bona fide lying, deceiving PM … like Chretien … because Dion is too naive and well-intentioned to be the kind of PM Canadians prefer ….LOL
By Harry S on 07.09.08 4:12 pm
He has already proven it Harry so why give him another chance? Should I run my list again to remind you?
By Ben on 07.09.08 3:41 pm
Harper can not be trusted. Only stupid people would trust a proven liar.
Look into the mirror Harry. A stupid person will be looking back at you. Anyone doubting that fact need only review your stupid (bordering on insane) posts here to figure that one out.
Seek professional care Harry. Seriously.
………………………………………..
Oh, Ben … I offer you reasoned argument and all you do is go emotional and then launch a personal attack on me. That’s not the way to discuss and debate the issues on our MP Garth’s fine forum … in fact it’s downright rude if not desperate on your part.
So pull yourself together and address your comments to the issues I have raised in response to the issues that you raised. Obviously, you are unable to broach the reality of Dion’s flawed Green Shift … and I submit that Dion and the Liberals are not worthy of forming the next government on that basis.
As for your emotional outburst about ITs is of great concern to you … and yes, as prime minister Harper reversed his position when he was able to fully evaluate and judge the situation as it was unfolding into the future. A leader must sometimes make difficult and unpopular decisions, and this was one of them. Canadians will judge Harper in any next election if the Liberals are able to run an election now that they are being sued. I doubt they will get bank loans for any next election considering they are mired in legal litigation for over $12 Million in lawsuits. Wotta bummer …..!!!!
“You have your own Assholery blog, so make your comments there. Not my fault nobody visits.”
You mean except yourself?
Now if only that were true…
Perhaps Garth will piss off the realtors next or maybe the pet shops or furniture stores, you can help him distinguish between them.
btw how did your table get covered in so much hair you thought it was your dog?
By got rope? on 07.09.08 3:29 pm
I think you are too late with Garth pissing off realtors, Robert, his book “The Greater Fool” must have had them at their wits end…but your comment on the table with hair was priceless…LMAO….
“There is no doubt Harper counts on stupid people — you for not payBy Barb the proof-reader on 07.09.08 2:41
Where I come we call that – stuck on stupid.
By jwp on 07.09.08 4:07 pm
But it is far more fun bashing Harper and he supplies the ammunition as well…
………………………………..
But, jpw …. Canadians consider Dion to be worst than Harper … and in fact at 5% popularity Dion is about as popular as McCain with Canadians.
Also with Harper at 35% popularity, Harper is 7x more popular with Canadians than 5% Dion …!!!!
MPs spend lots of money on party events across the country. This tallies only those donations which were receipted. There is no meaning to these numbers. — Garth
Ohhhhhhhhhhhh… I get it. No meaning to not giving to your party. No meaning at all. Nothing to see here, folks, move along. It’s meaningless, meaningless. Is it also meaningless that the Liberal party is going broke?
A hundred MPs giving $1,000 max each is a hundred grand. It costs $6 million a year to run a party. No, it’s meaningless. — Garth
The liberal loonies are speculating that the owners of GreenShift are Tories. Hmmm, that’s actually not that hard to believe because many conservatives are very good stewards of the environment.
The libs like to talk about it, but as Iggy said, they didn’t get it done.
Conservatives on the other hand believe in action, not just talk.
It shows in many ways, read Who Really Cares to see how much more generous conservatives are, how they volunteer more, how they give blood more, and how they donate more to charities.
Liberals talk a good game, but they ‘Didn’t get it done’.
- Garry Breitkreuz, Conservative MP for Yorkton-Melville, in the Vancouver Province By slg on 07.09.08 8:46 am
By the way wasn;’t this member the conservatie advocate for getting rid of the gun registry for long guns?
What ever happened to this clown? Me thinks the law abiding gun folks might have got shafted.
So there no acceptable answer to Stan’s question, only one that will get CRAPped on? That’s it, that’s all you got? Given your logic, one might think Garth is scared to respond.
Gord.
By Gord G. on 07.09.08 4:09 pm
Scared to respond ? Now that is the stupidest most moronic thing ever posted on this site .
You sir, are a GOOF
“I realize the “narrow minds” aren’t in Alberta, but in Ontario”
IRVINE 07.08.08 10:55 PM
“Irvine has fallen under the spell of the divisive Conservative politicians here in Alberta, the ones who raised Harper in a cage”
Barb the proof-reader
“Good try attempting to pin my opinions on some political party”
BY IRVINE ON 07.09.08 2:37 PM
Then why the unequal rampage against Ontario drivers and comments to the effect that Alberta drivers are better, when they simply aren’t. I drive in both places. No difference. Simply not so. You’ve most definitely fallen for your own hype, Alberta-driven hype by the constant Alberta Conservative Politicians picking away to build an east vs west argument.
I’ve been here 30 years and I have never heard it from anyone but a Conservative politician or their trolls. You, Irvine, talk about “negative stereotypes of Alberta” yet the vast, vast majority of stereo-typing comes from Alberta politicians, but you may have missed the Ralph Klein era, so I’ll forgive you that.
You refer to “narrow minds” but I’ve never encountered minds more narrow than greedy Alberta politicians, their spokespersons and their [as you say] “greedy oil barons” ..their cronies.
When you drive in Alberta people let you in? You’ve obviously missed out on the legendary bad drivers that everyone else here complains about. I travel back east and oddly have no problems with drivers there. Lucky? Maybe like you here. In Ontario it’s strange, but the drivers there stop for me to cross, people are polite. See Irvine, you’ve put on this blog a reverso set of slurs against the east that has nothing to do with the reality of east vs west. The people are all the same. You have simply put on this blog another east vs west tidbit of hate campaign… and you certainly do not represent the reality of Alberta, perhaps naively only repeating what you hear on the Conservative political hot potato drum. And by the way, I was talking to Dave on Saturday, and I wonder when was the last time you talked to him?
But, jpw …. Canadians consider Dion to be worst than Harper … and in fact at 5% popularity Dion is about as popular as McCain with Canadians.
Also with Harper at 35% popularity, Harper is 7x more popular with Canadians than 5% Dion …!!!!
By Harry S on 07.09.08 4:33 pm
Yes but Harry, the polls indicate a virtual tie between decided voters so that popularity you claim is doing the CPC no good. Then the swing voters, who will decide the election, will comprise a large number of persons like myself who made the mistake of voting CPC in the last election believing deceiving Stephen and now will have to choose another party, independent or not vote at all. I suspect many of them will hold their nose and vote Liberal. Harper is done like dinner, he will be a popular as Obama but will come in second! He and John McCain will have an enjoyable surrender party.
I was reading your post, and the Albertan comments, and I thought, “What the F#!! are they talking about, he never said that!!”
Then I got to end to see you repeat exactly what I read in the post. I thought what the hell does this have to do with Alberta.
I’m so sick of regional identity politics. If Harper believes the Maritimes is a culture of defeatism, and I wonder what he thinks now with Newfoundland’s soon to be new found status as a “have province”, then Alberta and to a lesser extent other Western provinces (Alberta always view themselves as “the west”) has a culture of perpetual alienation. As lemmings to a cliff they are to views of Ontario as the evil incarnate.
Funny, with these neo-cons pandering to Alberta and oil to the exclusion of the interests of the rest of the country seem to be perfectly acceptable. And that, I call hypocrisy.
I’ll reiterate, east, west, people all the same. Alberta Conservative Politicians yell separation and constantly attempt to create east vs west division [ie: Ralph Klein days] for their own purposes, they groomed Harper, much like they did troll puppies. Figure it out.
“A hundred MPs giving $1,000 max each is a hundred grand. It costs $6 million a year to run a party. No, it’s meaningless. — Garth”
I’ll have to pass that on to a hundred of my closest liberal friends.
Likely the reason they didn’t donate is that they know the money will just go to the Conservatives once they lose the $3.5 million dollar lawsuit.
You keep denying yet you admit you call western separatists losers. You have defined western separatists as Albertains. You have defined western separatists as losers and in fact the majority of western separatists are Albertains. If you were just referring to all western separatists and not just Albertains you would have mentioned BC as we are catching up fast but you limited your comments on western separatists to Albertains.
Isn`t that a fair evaluation
Did I pass the test, can I move on to the next question?
By got rope? on 07.09.08 12:56 pm
Is it just me or did Got Rope demonstrate what Monty Python would call b@#$%^&t, or as commonly referred to a “logical fallacy”?
Garth said that Quebec separatists are losers and that Dion stood up to them in the past. One could interpret his actual quote as saying Dion can once again stand up to Quebec separatists when he visits Alberta (unlikely), or (more likely) Dion would stand up to those Albertans who promote secession.
Using the “Professional Logician” skit as a reference for interpretation, what Garth’s post said was “Some western secessionists are found in Alberta. Not all Albertans are westerns secessionists”. However, Got rope and others clearly believe that if they buy kippers it will not rain……..
It’s always worked before, why wouldn’t it work again?
By Stan on 07.09.08 4:19 pm
Thanks for answering your own questions? and proving my point!
The Q and A ssession you had with yourself underlines your reading and comprehension dysfunction You obviously need upgrading to even get to “dumb,old moron hillbilly” status.
Once you start answering your own questions though that is another story?
Harry: Why do you soften Harpers lies by calling them “a reversal of position”?
Surely the same could be applied to anyone who says one thing and does another? When exactly is a lie a lie??
Rope,
your 3:17 is just another go around the horn of deliberately misrepresenting what I said a long time ago. I refuse to go around that horn with you again, except on a specific thread discussing election systems.
Information on trademarks is available at the CIPO website. Green Shift Inc’s request for trademark registration has not been approved and has not moved beyond the search phase. From all the correspondence and extensions noted, there appears to have been problems with registering this name well before anything to do with the Liberal Party. Perhaps a coincidence, but the latest correspondence from CIPO was sent out on Feb 18, 2008 with a deadline of June 18, 2008.
More grist for the mill .
It’s too bad those 6 (count them, 6) MPs got suckered somehow into giving the maximum to a meaningless effort. And, do you expect ordinary citizens to give, nevertheless, to a meaningless endeavor? It’s meaningless. Is it giving to a meaningless party?
Garth,
Your words were a little much perhaps but I don’t think there was a need to apologize at all. It was pretty clear what you were saying I thought. It disgusts me that these people can kick up such a fuss over this when they have been saying far worse about Liberals and Dion for 2 years!!! What a bunch of sucks and hypocrites.
Stan: We in the East are counting on it working again. You fool, don’t your realize that we in the East see the Reform/Alliance hodgepodge party as Republicans in waiting?
There policy is the survival of the fittest with the fittest having the most dollars.
They hold themselves up as champions of family values when they actually view women as breeders and housekeepers–
They are the party of exclusion.
You can join as long as you look, act, and think like them. No free-thinkers need apply.
When we listen to Harper, we cringe, because we know what he is and what he stands for.
And when we hear his followers lauding his leadership abilities, we are amazed at their blind adoration.
We just don’t see it.
The liberal MPs don’t give to the party because they know that the money will just end up in the Conservative bank account when they win the 3.5 million dollar lawsuit.
Ring those phones folks, Stephen Harper needs a new pair of shoes!
The $8.5 million GreenShift lawsuit will pretty much finish off the liberals, they have no revenue now that Adscam has been shut down.
But give till it hurts to the Victory Fund, which oddly enough is also a name already being used by a gay and lesbian group.
It might not be a bad idea to try google before the come up with any fancy new names for plans to try to get money from Canadians.
JWP,
re your 4:30, what I want to know is whether that hairy table raised one of its four legs – and got R.
WW from today’s KDC:
“It usually takes more than three weeks to prepare a good impromptu speech.” — Mark Twain
Following carney’s directive, CRAP needed more than three weeks to black out those 18 pages of IT documents, and prove beyond doubt to all that they are nothing more two-faced liars.
Let’s see: One minister per page, 18 pages, 30 days of infighting to see who got what to black out, and then — THE ANNOUNCEMENT!
****************************************
“Oh well .. if Dion becomes our next prime minister, we can expect that to happen in 2012 . . .”
– all change, please! –
“Oh well .. when Dion is installed as Canada’s next PM, which will happen in late 2008 / early 2009 . . .”
enema sludgeballs hairy, 8:30 pm
To add to your beloved leader harpo’s woes, a CP report today says “Loonie seen as flying above US dollar at year’s end”.
It’s quite straightforward, hairy — the US greenback is “Sinking Like A Sunset” (as Tom Cochrane sings) — that’s all.
Consequently, everything else has to “Fly Like An Eagle” (as Steve Miller sings), or rise in proportion to the downfall of The American Empire.
Almost everything is based / priced in US greenbacks, which is why utilities (old and failing power grids), ever-increasing fuel and food prices and a number of other items — except fixed incomes — are heading north. Stagflation is also playing a role, too.
To reduce dependence on the US dollar, this is why Iran started its own bourse recently; Russia and a few Middle East oil-producing countries will switch to the new system very shortly.
Iraq was also going to start its own bourse, too and that is the main reason why the war is an ongoing, never-ending cock up. Sadaam may or may not have gone; dubya is still around.
Then again, that may be too difficult for you to comprehend, hairy. Have you finished the alphabet yet, or learned to count from one to two?
It’s such a laugh to toy with you, hairy — I do hope you’ll stick around when Dion takes charge for the next two or three decades!
****************************************
Another report from CP says “Canadians still want green action, poll suggests”.
The only poll that matters is right after the election results have been tallied; other than that, zip.
It does indicate how Cdns. thinking and overall viewpoints are changing, though; seem to be focussed more on what is at hand, how individuals can make changes in their own lives.
If Libs. use the summer, fall and however long harpo wants to keep the HoC empty to their advantage, crank up their rhetoric, avoid CRAP’s blatant finger-pointing and smear-by-lies campaigns (don’t even bother responding to them, as CRAP will drag Libs. down to their level, and voters don’t want that anymore).
Libs. will be in much better shape to have a election scrap and wipe the floor with CRAP — the finances will take care of themselves.
BTW, does anyone fancy moving to the sunny and hot Okanagan Valley? Tons of homes and loads of condos for sale!
Rather than slagging PM Harper so speciously, why don’t you focus your attention on Dion’s Green Shift ‘hidden agenda’..??!!!
By Harry S on 07.09.08 4:00 pm
Why do you keep showing your low IQ Harry with this hidden agenda stuff. Only Stephen Harper and his sheeple attempt to hide things–Cadman bribe, 18 blacked out pages–night time firing of Linda Keen–closing down the information department and much much more. They are the most secretive politicians ever in power with nothing but hidden agendas.
Stephane Dion has integrity, is open and honest. He is showing Canadians a new type of governance which Canadians may choose to follow. Hopefully he will inspire all the members of his party who need this particular inspiration to vote for the greatest good and not their greed or need for power. With the Green Shift Plan we see this happening.
Stephane Dion will lead Canadians to a greener, fairer and richer Canada.
The richer part is on its way. I just heard today from an influential Alberta entrapreneurial friend and investor that he has an appointment to look at a device someone has invented that will neutralize C02 emissions along with a few other neat things. Just think what “riches” that can bring to Canada if we can keep it here. My friend is trusting they will be able to. I think there will be many more such inventions which along with Dion’s Green Shift plan will go a long way to saving our environment for our children and grandchildren.
Has anyone read the Conservative environmental plan? It can be found at the below link.
http://www.environmentcanada.gc.ca/cmap-cea/default.asp?lang=En&n=B148443A-0
It seems to be as ingenious as it is complicated and deceptive.
They are using the increase in emissions based on 2006. They are then creating a carbon market from those who reduced emissions back to 1993, including “intensity” emissions. Then those who go beyond any 2006 levels can purchase those credits. Hence, emissions can continue to escalate because the cap is set at 2006 levels but credits are based on a period when emissions were about 30 per cent lower and include “intensity” levels.
The main direction of this policy is not environmental but the creation a new for “money market” for carbon trading. It will allow the “sellers” achieve a profit while the “buyers” will be able to totally download their costs onto consumers. Those who are able to play in this market will be the big winners and the environment and consumers will be the biggest losers.
Maybe I am interpreting it incorrectly so I would like others to try to figure out how this plan would decrease overall emissions.
Also with Harper at 35% popularity, Harper is 7x more popular with Canadians than 5% Dion …!!!!
By Harry S on 07.09.08 4:33 pm
So what do the other 60% think of Harper/ Who are they for? I am an old conservative and I’m not for Harper.
But, jpw …. Canadians consider Dion to be worst than Harper … and in fact at 5% popularity Dion is about as popular as McCain with Canadians.
Also with Harper at 35% popularity, Harper is 7x more popular with Canadians than 5% Dion …!!!!
By Harry S on 07.09.08 4:33 pm
Harry – can you provide the latest poll for your stats?
Wow! The pot is really boiling over here. Some here see the CPoC as being behind Jennifer Wright’s lawsuit, Robert Fife figures it’s the Dippers.
Yet others are accusing some posting here of using multiple pseudonyms. Which poses some questions for me.
What ever became of Jackie Chan’s Left Hand? I miss the little fella.
More recently I wondered how two nearly identical posts appeared in the “Apology” thread with the same time stamp, the first is as follows:
So Garth keep on saying what you want about that separatist vermin because Canadians are listing!Thanks Matthew Zaduk Guelph
By Garth Turner on 07.08.08 11:16 am
The second is as follows:
So Garth keep on saying what you want about that separatist vermin because Canadians are listing!Thanks Matthew Guelph
By Matthew on 07.08.08 11:16 am
Did anybody else notice the difference?
How can this be? Garth?
Syncro
p.s. Screen shots are swell.
It’s because I was posting an email to the blog, as requested by the sender. Man you must have better things to do… — Garth
You mean except yourself?
Now if only that were true…
By Patrick Ross on 07.09.08 4:29 pm
Patrick – I bet you get half+ of your traffic from Libs who link to your blog to laugh at you.
By Ben on 07.09.08 4:18 pm
Do not let the dirty game that Harper plays fool you. Do not assume anything when Harper speaks. In my opinion he is a weasel.
……………………………….
But, Ben … in Dion’s Green Shift he only offers one sparse paragraph on GHG targets in 44 pages of promises and carbon tax tables.
On page 16 of the Green Shift, Dion expresses a hope about GHG levels in 2020 .. whereas the Green Shift only covers 4 years to 2012 … and he admits Canada will not meet it’s 2012 Kyoto targets even with his Green Shift.
Does Dion have a ‘hidden agenda’ somewhere in his taxation scheme … because Canadians want to know before they vote …!!!!
Good Day Traitor
By Irene on 07.09.08 1:13 pm
Supporting decades of government corruption that has already put Ontario on the skids with the rest of Canada following is treason. That shows you don`t have the moral authority to call anyone traitor or even loser.
My day is good, how`s yours?
By got rope? on 07.09.08 3:09 pm
My day is excellent Rope. BTW,the way we deal with governments who screw Canadians is to vote them out, not cry separation. Anyone who cries separation is a traitor to their country & that’s a fact buddy.
Read the poem below & tell me that any government (Reform/Alliance/CPC included in Canada’s history has not been guilty of some type of corruption in their time. Like I said earlier, the way to stop a government is to VOTE them out.
I am done with you buddy. Go cry elsewhere.
Cheers
The Tax Poem
At first I thought this was funny…then I realized the awful truth of it.
Be sure to read all the way to the end!
Tax his land,
Tax his bed,
Tax the table
At which he’s fed.
Tax his tractor,
Tax his mule,
Teach him taxes
Are the rule.
Tax his work,
Tax his pay,
He works for peanuts
Anyway!
Tax his cow,
Tax his goat,
Tax his pants,
Tax his coat.
Tax his ties,
Tax his shirt,
Tax his work,
Tax his dirt.
Tax his tobacco,
Tax his drink,
Tax him if he
Tries to think.
Tax his cigars,
Tax his beers,
If he cries
Tax his tears.
Tax his car,
Tax his gas,
Find other ways
To tax his ass.
Tax all he has
Then let him know
That you won’t be done
Till he has no dough.
When he screams and hollers;
Then tax him some more,
Tax him till
He’s good and sore.
Then tax his coffin,
Tax his grave,
Tax the sod in
Which he’s laid.
Put these words
Upon his tomb,
‘Taxes drove me
to my doom…’
When he’s gone,
Do not relax,
Its time to apply
The inheritance tax.
Accounts Receivable Tax
Airline surcharge tax
Airline Fuel Tax
Airport Maintenance Tax
Building Permit Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Death Tax
Dog License Tax
Drivng Permit Tax
Excise Taxes
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment (UI)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Gasoline Tax ( too much per litre)
Gross Receipts Tax
Health Tax
Hunting License Tax
Hydro Tax
Inheritance Tax
Interest Tax
Liquor Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Mortgage Tax
Poverty Tax
Prescription Drug Tax
Property Tax
Provincial Income Tax
Real Estate Tax
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Retail Sales Tax
Service Charge Tax
School Tax
Telephone Federal Tax
Telephone Federal, Provincial and Local Surcharge Taxes
Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Tax
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Water Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was one of the most prosperous in the world.
We had absolutely no national debt, had a large middleclass, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.
What in the hell happened? Can you spell ‘politicians?’
And I still have to ‘press 1′ for English!?!?!?!?
I hope this goes around CANADA at least 100 times!!!!! YOU can help it get there!!!!
GO AHEAD – - – be a CANADIAN !!!!!!!!!! SEND IT AROUND EVERYWHERE for a change
As Harpo ( Baba Rum Raisen) steers the ‘Good Ship Lollipop’ of the CPC party onto a reef in turbulent seas the call is heard ” Man the life boats ”
Pretend Prime Minister Stephen Harper (I’m not as dumb as I look” ) is the most dangerous man in Canada . A raging, raving megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur .
A dyed-in-the-wool ideolouge of far right, far reaching opinions and ideoloical positions and dogma all of them to the right of Ghenghis Khan . .
His hatred of all things Liberal is visceral .and all consuming .
On meeting Pierre Trudeau on a Montreal street he wrote.
“There I came face to face with a living legend, someone who had provoked in me both the loves and hatreds of my political passion, all in the form of a tired out, little, old man,”
“It was an experience at once unforgettable, nostalgic and haunting.” He went on to denounce that old man’s legacy in the bitterest terms. Not only did he rebuke Trudeau’s policy mix of “centralism, socialism and bilingualism,” he even indicted him for failing to serve in the Second World War or oppose the Soviet Union. “In those battles,” Harper wrote, “the ones that truly defined his century, Mr. Trudeau took a pass.”
in December 2000, just after the Stockwell Day-led Alliance was defeated by Jean Chrétien’s Liberals in that fall’s election. He admitted Day had run a poor campaign, but still attributed the Alliance loss to Liberal attacks on Day’s Alberta base. In Harper’s view, the fact this ploy had worked was evidence that anti-Western politics “has an enormous market in this country.” He bitterly concluded: “Alberta and much of the rest of Canada have embarked on divergent and potentially hostile paths to defining their country.” How did he define those two paths? Alberta was “open, dynamic and prosperous,” while “Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country.”
Stephen Harper killed Income Trusts and looks prepared to begin work on a tax to the Alberta Oil Sands decimating their current competitive edge. Harper is also courting Quebec like a drunk en sailor, an odd change of heart since he once found Canada’s East to be such a demon seed. Harper obviously changes his loyalty dependent on compensation, whether that be money or power.As
OOPS, should of deleted this part. Sorry Garth.
I hope this goes around CANADA at least 100 times!!!!! YOU can help it get there!!!!
GO AHEAD – - – be a CANADIAN !!!!!!!!!! SEND IT AROUND EVERYWHERE for a change
Regards
Barb the Proof Reader:
LOL, so you “travel” back east, eh. Wow. I lived in both provinces, moved back to Alberta in March 2007. I can say without a doubt that Alberta drivers are more polite & FAR more likely to let you in than in Ontario. Keep in mind I ONLY drove in Ontario for about 20 years. I certainly couldn’t draw any conclusions.
I’m making a comparison with information gathered from living in both places. You make that assumption based on that you went and visited a few people.
As for your constant reiteration that I’m somehow “under the spell” of the Conservatives, you have your head in your ass. I HATE the Conservatives Barb and I HATE the Liberals.
The difference between you and I is that you’re brainwashed, just like some “religious” person. You blindly follow the mandate of the Liberal party & yet turn around and diss the people that blindly follow the Conservative party. The diff between you and I is that I support no one, I can think for myself. You need your “leader”. And that is why your opinions are nothing than Liberal rhetoric.
Barb, like really, get over your shots at me over this “spell” I’m under for the Conservatives. I think Harper’s a complete tool and have no use for his party. But I have even LESS use for Dion. Ya see sweetheart, I can think for myself. You need someone to idolize.
Irvine
Calgary, AB, Canada
By kpn on 07.09.08 5:32 pm
Harry – can you provide the latest poll for your stats?
…………………………………
It’s the Strategic Counsel-CTV poll at:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080629/poll_us_canada_080629/20080629?hub=TopStories
I should correct my polling numbers to:
Harper 21% .. Dion 5% .. McCain 3% …. so Dion is statistically tied with McCain and Harper is 4 times more popular than Dion amongst Canadians according to this poll. This 4:1 ratio also holds up in Canadian leader polling.
Of course if Obama at 26% loses to McCain in November, perhaps the Liberal party could invite him to lead the Liberals … and send Iggy back to Harvard and BobRae back to the NDP ..LOL
Obviously, angry old fart PCers on this forum are not representative of Canadians in the polls. Sorry fellas and gals .. yer defunct in Canadian politics.
http://nationalcitizens.ca/cgi-bin/oms.cgi?rm=show_product&pid=72
The National Citizens Coalition is mobilizing against the Carbon Tax. What a surprise!
But give till it hurts to the Victory Fund, which oddly enough is also a name already being used by a gay and lesbian group.
It might not be a bad idea to try google before the come up with any fancy new names for plans to try to get money from Canadians.
By Stan on 07.09.08 5:04 pm
Stan we know the CRAP party is against gays and lesbians, but they’re in the minority. The rest of the progressive world has accepted that its not a ‘disease’.
Now the neocons do it!!! I suppose better late than never and probably not enough. I’ll leave that comment to Garth
Ottawa revamps mortgage rules
By KEVIN CARMICHAEL, Globe and Mail Update
OTTAWA — The federal government, fearful of a U.S.-style housing bubble, has pledged steps aimed at keeping riskier borrowers in their rental units and away from homes they probably can’t afford.
Canada’s housing agency will no longer be allowed to guarantee loans with amortization periods longer than 35 years, a move that likely will end the surge in 40-year mortgages, popular because they allowed borrowers to reduce their monthly payments.
Prime Ministers Stephen Harper’s Conservative government said Wednesday Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. will also require a minimum down payment of 5 per cent to get government insurance.
Finance Minister Jim Flaherty and Bank of Canada Governor Mark Carney both expressed concern about the surge in 40-year mortgages over the past year, suggesting the loans were feeding a bubble……………….
http://tinyurl.com/5pl8w7
He has already proven it Harry so why give him another chance? Should I run my list again to remind you?
By jwp on 07.09.08 4:26 pm
………………………………..
I always thought you were a Dipper troll and your pov was totally irrelevant to Canadian politics .. so bugger off to babble.ca .. or do they laugh at you there too ..LOL
But give till it hurts to the Victory Fund, which oddly enough is also a name already being used by a gay and lesbian group.
It might not be a bad idea to try google before the come up with any fancy new names for plans to try to get money from Canadians.
By Stan on 07.09.08 5:04 pm
Why don’t you post this drivel and nonsense over on “Small Dead Assholes”
where you belong ?
What a Neanderthal .
Maybe I am interpreting it incorrectly so I would like others to try to figure out how this plan would decrease overall emissions.
By C. B. Innes on 07.09.08 5:15 pm
There is still alot of work to do on this Con-Plan. Right now it is behind schedule and many aspects of this plan have been panned by the large final emitters who are expected to use it for compliance.
The baseline year is not 06 but is now 08 so their is no retroactivity except for the one time early action opportunity which will be very much over subscribed. With less than 18 months to go before full implementation of a comprehensive “made in Canada” national plan this one is in danger of falling apart before it even starts to fizzle.Key people are leaving and there are a lot of confusing last minute changes to basic design.
Stay tuned on this one C.B.No one has the handle on this plan as yet.Intensity based targets do not result in any meaningful reductions of CO2 because the system is based on units of production which can vary widely over time.
More later!
By Bonnie L on 07.09.08 5:13 pm
Stephane Dion has integrity, is open and honest. He is showing Canadians a new type of governance which Canadians may choose to follow. Hopefully he will inspire all the members of his party who need this particular inspiration to vote for the greatest good and not their greed or need for power. With the Green Shift Plan we see this happening.
Stephane Dion will lead Canadians to a greener, fairer and richer Canada.
…………………………………..
But Bonnie L … in 44 pages of Green Shift, Dion only offers one measly paragraph on GHG reduction targets. He lays out his taxation regime over 4 years but says absolutely nothing about 2012 Kyoto GHG targets other than admitting Canada will not meet it’s 2012 Kyoto commitments. What happens in 2012 when a Dion government must comply with Rodriguez’ The Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act which states that Canada must meet it’s 2012 Kyoto Treaty targets.
What will a Dion government do in 2012 when his Green Shift runs out and Canada has not lowered it’s GHGs to meet our Kyoto targets… what is his ‘hidden agenda’ ….???!!!
That’s what Canadians will want to know before they vote in any next election..!!!
If Stephane Dion has integrity, is open and honest, he should clarify his position on Kyoto GHGs and the Liberal Kyoto compliance act .. in the context of his Green Shift …!!!!
Still no answer on why Garth says he is the defender of Canadian unity while promoting Dion/Borat’s plan to buy votes in the east with money stolen from the west.
No explanation as to why they want to tax diesel but not gasoline either.
I must be right in my explanation that the liberals know the west uses more diesel while the east uses more gasoline.
It’s just more of the ‘Screw the west we’ll take the rest’ policy of the Dion liberals.
The eastern voters will once again be bought off with stolen money from the west.
What other explanation makes sense after seeing the libs tax diesel which is better for the environment?
Is this new tax about saving the planet or saving the liberal party of Toronto?
Oh dear, it turns out that the owner of GreenShift is a woman who has worked for the liberals in the past.
I guess the liberal party is going to eat one of their own again.
What was Judy saying about respecting women?
Shouldn’t the liberals respect this woman and her business?
Why are they trying to destroy her business?
Is this new tax about saving the planet or saving the liberal party of Toronto?
By Stan on 07.09.08 6:27 pm
………………………………….
It’s okay, Stan … Toronto is NOT Canada either … !!!
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/clip65544#clip65544
She sounds pissed!
I wonder what this will cost the liberal party to settle?
Dion will go down in history as a great Canadian, he will be responsible for the bankruptcy of the liberal party.
By James R. McGillawee on 07.09.08 1:15 pm
James your post at reference is COMPLETELY wrong. The resources belong to the PROVINCIAL government (not the federal).
And Canada was formed at the request of the existing provinces/colonies at the time. Canada is not a federation, but is a confederation.
The problem with Canada today is that too many PM’s have tried to govern by stepping all over the constitutional responsibilities of the provinces (which were clearly laid out in the 1867 and reiterated in 1982).
Ed the Hun
Brain,
“Links please and keep in mind this is in Ontario, not western Canada where the east imports and the west export”
Actually the links would mean having to attend a few meetings and me giving up the names of some managers (that I’d just as soon not do).
Oh I know you won’t believe me, but given the GHG uncertainty in Ontario, the industry is asking why build a refinery when we don’t know the future cost of that decision (carbon tax).
Now the plan is to reactivate/expand the refinery row in Alberta (Ft. Saskatchewan) or to move the capacity to the US (where is no GHG requirements).
Too bad Ontario could have used the jobs…I’ll bet the mayor of Sarnia will be taking both McSquinty and Dion off of his Christmas list.
Ed the Hun
Good point Harry. Why does the Green Shaft have plenty of details about how much money they will take from the west and how much they will give to the voter in the east to buy votes, but nothing on how much it will reduce our greenhouse gases?
Isn’t it a bit odd that the meat and potatoes of this program is focused on how much loot will be redistributed in the east and not how much difference it will make in saving the planet?
That says a lot about the real motivation of this program.
Sleazy vote buying.
O.K. Garth
So this is all just a technical glitch. How is it that Matt’s first post includes his last name and the second does not?
You don’t edit posts on GT Unedited do you?
As far as having something better to do. Not today Garth. It’s Stampede so we are mostly concentrating on getting snot hanging drunk and chasing our female cousins but even that gets old after awhile.
No, dollar for dollar, checking out the goings on here is truly quality entertainment at a reasonable price.
Syncro
p.s. No word on JCLH eh?
The duplication is now removed, so you can stop hyperventilating and hang on to your snot like a good stampeder. — Garth
“This is despicable: “Separatism is a natural response to the policies of a central government whose only goal is destroy our economy in order to ensure that there is a ‘needle-exchange’ program in downtown Torona.” Shame on you.” — Garth
Why Garth is this ’shame on me’? It should shame on you and your party for trying to cause a repeat of the 1980’s all over again.
This has never been about the environment, just about taking money away from the west (Alberta & Saskatchewan). And to try and ‘hide’ that fact behind the environment screen is downright disingenuous and dishonest and is beneath any person, much less a member of parliament.
All that this has shown is that your party has had a hidden agenda and wasn’t quite smooth enough to hide it from the electorate.
The Alberta Government is aware of what you are trying to do and they have a reaction plan.
Ed the Hun
But give till it hurts to the Victory Fund, which oddly enough is also a name already being used by a gay and lesbian group.
It might not be a bad idea to try google before the come up with any fancy new names for plans to try to get money from Canadians.
By Stan on 07.09.08 5:04 pm
Why don’t you post this drivel and nonsense over on “Small Dead Assholes”
where you belong ?
What a Neanderthal .
By Men With Hats on 07.09.08 6:15 pm
—————————————
I’m a Neanderthal? It’s the liberals who just co-opted another name by taking the name victory fund from the group of gays and lesbians.
Wouldn’t that make them the Neanderthals?
But of course we all remember how the liberals used their majority to pass a bill defining the definition of marriages as being between one man and one woman back in 2002.
It wasn’t until 2004 when they figured out they could paint the Conservatives as Neanderthals that they did a 180 and voted the exact opposite.
That’s the traditional way of operating for the liberals,they tell whatever lie they need to to smear their opponents.
And they take trade names from women and gay and lesbian groups while pretending to stand up for them.
nothing new here.
I’m looking forward to their bankruptcy.
“If that is where your separatist bitterness has taken you, at least be honest about it.”
By C. B. Innes on 07.09.08 7:41 am
C.B. nope that isn’t where my ‘bitterness’ has taken me. I was only responding to your question about what might becoming the 51st state ‘get us’?
I answered that question. Equal representation in the senate (unlike Canada’s). A federal government respecting the constitutional limits, etc.
Ed the Hun
Liberals/Cons/Dippers. Where the Hell are CANADIANS?
Brain,
You said:
“I’m beginning to think I’m reading the words of the mind of a child, now. Close to 4 million people live in TO and GTA. How many people live in the tarsands?”
What has that got to do with anything? We are talking about the environment aren’t we? Toronto (its land mass) has a bigger ‘footprint’ that the mining operations in the tar sands. Fact.
The 4.0million residents drive cars, use electricity, burn fuel to heat their homes resulting in more GHG emissions that the tar sands. Fact.
The real issue that is that there are only about 50,000 residents in the Ft. Mac area as compared to the 4.0 million. A much larger pool from which to obtain voters.
If this was about the environment, then there would be carbon taxes on the gas being consumed by the people living in Ontario.
Industry would be shut down to reduce the POLLUTION that gives Toronto such amazing sunrises (all of the airborne pollutants).
Oh and let us NOT forget about the trainloads of garbage that Toronto sends to Michigan every day…
Yup if this was REALLY about the environnment the policies would be MUCH different.
Ed the Hun
Garth
Let me guess which one you removed. Aww that’s too easy. Anyways, thank you for your heartfelt concern for my snot,it means everything coming from you.
Syncro
I know you are well endowed. — Garth
By Stan on 07.09.08 6:27 pm
You said no explanation as to why tax on deisel and not gasoline…obviously you can;t read or hear…too bad, maybe some kind soul will look up this information for you..I sure won’t….
BUT YOU ARE WRONG, THERE WAS A VERY DISTINCT EXPLANATION…
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, & our nation was one of the most prosperous in the world.
By Irene on 07.09.08 5:57 pm
You should have studied history. We have had taxes, fees, and statute requirements since the beginning of civilization. In fact, at least eleven of the taxes you list have been in effect in the area that is now Canada since before Confederation. There were also a whole series of other taxes that are no longer in existence such as poll tax, a complicated series of duties and tariffs on virtually everything imported and exported, and statute labour requirements on roads (replaced by gas taxes).
If you think you are overly taxed today you should study the tax systems in some of the ancient societies.
It is easy to fool people who do not know the history of their own country, their own province, or their own municipality.
I always thought you were a Dipper troll and your pov was totally irrelevant to Canadian politics .. so bugger off to babble.ca .. or do they laugh at you there too ..LOL
By Harry S on 07.09.08 6:15 pm
You would be hearing the echo of all the laughing at your posts on Garth’s blog…I have never visited the site you mentioned but suit you to a T.
So much for civil conversation Harry…
LMAO….a terrorist, and a coward to boot!
Sleazy vote buying.
By Stan on 07.09.08 6:53 pm
Like the Harper government trying to buy Cadman’s vote and trying to buy Quebec votes during a provincial election..you are right, very sleazy!
C.B. nope that isn’t where my ‘bitterness’ has taken me. I was only responding to your question about what might becoming the 51st state ‘get us’?
I answered that question. Equal representation in the senate (unlike Canada’s). A federal government respecting the constitutional limits, etc.
Ed the Hun
==================================
Ed, that is more errors in thinking. The Americans would never ever contemplate Alberta becoming more than a Porto Rico North, without statehood, and without equal representation. You need to travel and work in American as long as I have to realize that they want more cheap labor slaves and they don’t care if they are colored or colorless, just submissive! Slavery is not dead and never will be as long as greed is the motivator! The number of times we truckers were asked to do something for free and I will make it up to you and nothing ever materializes is astronomical. WAKE UP SUCKER!
I always thought you were a Dipper troll and your pov was totally irrelevant to Canadian politics .. so bugger off to babble.ca .. or do they laugh at you there too ..LOL
By Harry S on 07.09.08 6:15 pm
So says the biggest laughing stock on this site .
ROTFLMAO
A new poll suggests the federal Conservatives have lost key support amongst women, Quebecers and Ontario voters. The Canadian Press Harris-Decima survey indicates the Tories and Liberals are tied at about 31 per cent of national support… In Quebec, the poll suggests Tories lost a 15-point lead with voters who say they’re neither federalist nor separatist – and are now tied with the Liberals. And in Ontario, it indicates Conservative support has dipped outside the greater Toronto area and especially in the 613 area code.
James R. McGillawee on 07.08.08 8:24 pm said
“By the way enjoy your new second class status as an American Territorial Protectorate. It will prove interesting!”
Frankly better that than the arrogance of Eastern Canada. Calling us losers, taxing away our resources and calling us petty, mean spirited, and selfish. Taking our resource revenue to support Liberal welfare schemes at the expense of the colonial territories they have consistently looted for decades.
We’ll be please to sell you the uranium, natural gas and oil you’ll need to avoid freezing in the dark. If you pay the full price with no theft back discounts.
Besides there is nothing we can’t buy at market from anywhere else in the world.Eastern Canada has absolutely nothing to offer the west.
Why is the liberal party having such problems raising money? Could it be now that they can’t steal from us through Adscam the flow of our tax dollars being funneled into their bank accounts has dried up?
C’mon guys, ring those phones. Please.
The Conservatives and the Green Shift company that are suing them want a nice juicy settlement.
We want some meat on the bones of the liberal party carcass when we pick it clean.
Alberta would have no great incentive to join the US. We would still have plenty to sell them and we wouldn’t be handcuffed by having to give away concessions to them to help out the Ontario auto industry like we did when the free trade deal was signed.
See ya!
Once again the con-bot ‘Death Star’ is loading up this site with moronic imbeciles. Who spout and spew their drivel all over this site .
Forget it losers . No one here is buying your particular brand of bullshit .
jwp on 07.09.08 4:30 pm
lol, I might have responded to quickly, I should have asked if he heard his table barking or lifting a leg, rofl
————
Got rope and others clearly believe that if they buy kippers it will not rain……..
By Theo on 07.09.08 4:53 pm
And if I had hair on my kitchen table I`d be a Liberal with a hairless dog, what`s your point?
——————-
I refuse to go around that horn with you again, except on a specific thread discussing election systems.
By Herb on 07.09.08 4:56 pm
when would you like to have that discussion, after the Liberals are back in power.
——————–
By got rope? on 07.09.08 12:56 pm
You are a tiny, virulent, destructive force. — Garth
You are part of one of the most corrupt governments on the planet, did you have a point or are you just trying to make me look worse than you?
—————
Irene on 07.09.08 5:57 pm
Repeating the same mistakes continuously while expecting different results is not something I`m good. I do appreciate people like yourself doing the heavy lifting when it comes to government corruption.
“Ed, that is more errors in thinking. The Americans would never ever contemplate Alberta becoming more than a Porto Rico North, without statehood, and without equal representation. You need to travel and work in American as long as I have to realize that they want more cheap labor slaves and they don’t care if they are colored or colorless, just submissive! Slavery is not dead and never will be as long as greed is the motivator! The number of times we truckers were asked to do something for free and I will make it up to you and nothing ever materializes is astronomical. WAKE UP SUCKER!”
By James R. McGillawee on 07.09.08 7:26 pm
Actually James lived in Washington DC for 3 years. So I’ve been there (done that as the saying goes).
Your hatred for our neighbours to the south is showing. I won’t show my American wife (wouldn’t want her to see the central-Canadian bigotry against them).
Ed the Hun
To JWP posted @ 2:21
I have relatives who have lived in Quebec all their lives. They just want what everyone else living in Canada wants a good life.
It is not the fault of the people because the Federal Government overreacts ever time the politicians from Quebec make a noise.
The Liberals and Conservatives will continue to do anything that is required to win votes in Quebec. This has been a practise of buying them off. At this point no major party can gain a minority or majority without a foot hold in Quebec. When you look at the size of the population and the equalization program that provides them funding is the reason this money flows. All provinces including Ontario have been asking for increases for years.
I believe the issues surrounding Quebec will always be delicate to handle. I do not refer to them as separatist but nationlist. Some of them really believe that they should be a country to themselves. However, when they get a little close and see what is at stake and what they have to lose they quickly reverse their position. It would be beneficial if we could have a vote and settle this issue one way or the other and get on with our lives. Once this division is settled will mean political parties will not have to sell their souls to buy votes.
Oh dear, it turns out that the owner of GreenShift is a woman who has worked for the liberals in the past.
I guess the liberal party is going to eat one of their own again.
What was Judy saying about respecting women?
Shouldn’t the liberals respect this woman and her business?
Why are they trying to destroy her business?
By Stan on 07.09.08 6:33 pm
If I were a Liberal and they did the same to me with my business, I would be in seventh heaven. I really doubt she has warm and cuddly feelings for the Liberals.
They are not ruining her business and I do think they respected her in giving her advance notice. “The Green Shift” is different than “Green Shift Inc.”
Would she have been able to sue me if my dress shop where I specialized in “shift dresses” was called “The Green Shift” and my web url was http://www.thegreenshift.ca? I think not.
The liberals are showing their anti_American bigotry again. They don’t even realize what they are saying.
Would they say the same things about the French or the Chinese?
It would be bigotry then but they don’t see how it’s bigotry now because it’s about Americans.
Remember Carolyn Parrish? Could she have said how much she hated the Chinese and got away with it?
Garth
You Lil rascal you! Now what should I do?
Syncro
I suspect that the $136 a barrel figure that you’ve suggested for water was just pegged at the going rate for oil, but curiosity got the best of me so I thought I’d check it out for accuracy. Remarkably, it’s a pretty good figure when you equate premium sweet light crude to premium water, the kind that comes in a bottle rather than out of the tap.
There are 117 litres of water in a barrel, and if sold at grocery store prices for the bottled variety, say $1.20 per litre, that amounts to $140 per barrel.
I had not been here before, but one poster stands out above the rest.
Following is a summary of some of the more cerebral arguments put forward by this particular poster.
Posted by Ed the fool . Pretend soldier and warrior .
What a friggin’ clown.
Of course we already know that CRAP is financing this lawsuit .
Stupid bastards !
Rope has an entire chorus of voices in his cranium and he is never sure which one will take over .
Get over it moron .
Just another moron hillbilly from red neck central .
My happy thought is a ship full of con-bots sinking to the bottom of the ocean .
You sir, are a GOOF
What a Neanderthal .
Forget it losers . No one here is buying your particular brand of bullshit .
And the ironic finale:
So says the biggest laughing stock on this site .
A new poll suggests the federal Conservatives have lost key support amongst women, Quebecers and Ontario voters. The Canadian Press Harris-Decima survey indicates the Tories and Liberals are tied at about 31 per cent of national support… In Quebec, the poll suggests Tories lost a 15-point lead with voters who say they’re neither federalist nor separatist – and are now tied with the Liberals. And in Ontario, it indicates Conservative support has dipped outside the greater Toronto area and especially in the 613 area code.
By Men With Hats on 07.09.08 7:45 pm
………………………………..
The Canadian Press is the biggest Liberal goebellian propaganda organ in Canada .. next to the CBC.
And Decima is a well known Liberal polling firm … both are corrupt.
After the next election you will need hats to cover your faces…!!!
Oh, btw … it has just been reported on CTV that Dion has just called Jennifer Wright ‘deplorable’ over her Green Shift lawsuit … now that will make the Dion Liberals popular with the women of Canada ….LOL
Once again the con-bot ‘Death Star’ is loading up this site with moronic imbeciles. Who spout and spew their drivel all over this site .
Forget it losers . No one here is buying your particular brand of bullshit .
By Men With Hats on 07.09.08 8:14 pm
………………………………..
Yer abject desperation is showing through yer hat …LOL
So do you consider these items “bullshit”?:
- The Liberal Green Shift
- The Kyoto Protocol Implementation Act
- The Kyoto Treaty
…. because those are the items I have been trying to link in my many postings today .. but to no avail because all I get is frantic personal attacks for revealing the contradictions and ‘hidden agendas’ in Dion’s attempt to sell Canadians his Carbon Tax … but of course Liberal trools like you don’t want Canadians to learn of Dion’s ‘hidden agenda’ but rather just accept whatever Dion proposes without question … like a $15 Billion Carbon Tax …!!!
If you call that ‘bullshit’ then I dread what you call the ‘truth’ …!!!!!
Actually James lived in Washington DC for 3 years. So I’ve been there (done that as the saying goes).
Your hatred for our neighbours to the south is showing. I won’t show my American wife (wouldn’t want her to see the central-Canadian bigotry against them).
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.09.08 8:51 pm
Would it not have been easier to simply stay in the United States and become and American rather than come back to Alberta to try to foment civil war in that province? You clearly have a real hatred for all things Canadian. It must be awful to have your life consumed by that kind of emotion. You clearly could be so much happier still living in Washington.
Your hatred for all of us here in Canada, including Albertans and Westerners that are not anti-Canadian, is really the issue that is beginning to stand out.
By Ed the Hun on 07.09.08 6:59 pm
This has never been about the environment, just about taking money away from the west (Alberta & Saskatchewan). And to try and ‘hide’ that fact behind the environment screen is downright disingenuous and dishonest and is beneath any person, much less a member of parliament.
All that this has shown is that your party has had a hidden agenda and wasn’t quite smooth enough to hide it from the electorate.
The Alberta Government is aware of what you are trying to do and they have a reaction plan.
…………………………………
You got that right, Ed … but Dion also intends to screw all Canadians and purchase Billion$$$ of Chinese Kyoto Carbon Credits to mitigate the current 30% excess GHGs accumulated under the past Liberal governments. You know the story …..
Dion’s Green Shift scheme has 44 pages of taxation shifts, but only one lousy paragraph on GHG reduction targets on page 16 .. and even then it is nothing more than nebulous promises for 2020, which is 8 years after the Green Shift taxation schedule runs out in 2012 …!!!
The Dion Liberals are so corrupt they are even hidding their true intentions to screw ALL Canadians … and they depend on Canadians going on such a deep guilt trip over global warming that like lemmings they will rush to the Liberal party for relief of their abject angst …!!!
I would like to thank you for clearing that up. Out here in the west we are not capable of detecting’nuance’.Thank you. I would write more, but I am about to put on my thickest gloves and go for a walk.If I’m lucky my friend George,(no,not Mr.bush)will let me feed the rabbits.
My above post was directed at Garth.
Stan: what does gender have to do with a lawsuit?
“You make that assumption based on that you went and visited a few people”
BY IRVINE 07.09.08 6:05 PM
Yikes. Who’s making assumptions now, Irvine? You just fell into your own accusation. I lived in Ontario for 24 years, Alberta 30. I visit all of our families & friends in Ontario, averaging 5-6 weeks a year in Ontario, for the past 30 years, bringing my Ontario experience to over 27 years of driving amongst “them”. I’d say I’ve had a bit more driving years in both.. per your note. Your assumption unfortunately is the over the top. You did what you have accused.
BTW Irvine, re: your bolstering: I voted for Joe Clark, all my best friends are Conservatives, I knew the family of one of the previous presidents of the Federal PCs, as well as the family of a previous Lib. Premier., as well as attending lots of Calgary Conservative Stampede parties during my 30 years in Calgary. So don’t tell me I’m — what was it you said? ..oh, yes, brainwashed like some religious person – ha! Sorry, I don’t have those afflictions, thank goodness. Very glad you don’t either.
Actually, Irvine, I’m starting to like you! We could get along. I’ve never belonged to a political party and I didn’t like Dion until I did some reading on him, and watched his speeches on the lib site. And I decided to become a responsible Canadian and try to figure out what’s going on.
So Irvine, don’t use provincial driving habits to extrapolate that Ontarians are narrow-minded, or you’re going to end up appearing as unfairly slanting an argument… Trust me, people in the east, people in the west, no difference — as long as you ignore the yahoos in each place.
But I’m glad you enjoy Calgary as much as we do… we wouldn’t be here if it hadn’t proven itself immediately as a fun place to live. BTW, every mayor for the past 30 years has been liberal, including Klein, who we met on many social occasions.
When Garth comes to town we’ll all get together at O.Joe’s. Too bad Garth is missing Stampede.. his outfit on the news would have fit right in, with perhaps an added Smithbilt and kerchief.
One last note Irvine, I carefully assessed the parties, as I assume you have, I looked at the bigger picture, read a lot, then looked at the international and corporate picture.
Split the country? Bad idea. Stop playing in the neocon game to divide and conquer the people to serve corporate elite aspirations? Good idea.
Understand that the old Tories were hijacked quite awhile back — true. Is Canada in trouble due to Harper? Yes.
But everyone has to find that out for themselves.
Actually James lived in Washington DC for 3 years. So I’ve been there (done that as the saying goes).
Your hatred for our neighbours to the south is showing. I won’t show my American wife (wouldn’t want her to see the central-Canadian bigotry against them).
Ed the Hun
====================================
Correction EDDY BOY, I am bigoted against businessmen in both countries that keep taking advantage of us working people. I like the American working people especially those educated African Americans who are hard working, tax paying, honest workers. You did not see the real America I have in 45 of the 48! I spent 14 plus years and over 1 million miles living on the road for one to two weeks at a time. I learned information that I have no business knowing and have met some very interesting people (former Seals and Special Forces) What I experienced through the eyes and ears of others would fill more than one tome. As to the veracity of many items I could never be able in my remaining years to corroborate and a good writer should do just that.
I also have American cousins and so does my wife. The clans have split up and drifted apart over the years as our employment and our customs change.
But a greedy businessman is the same no matter what his flag or creed. And I call them as I see them! The business ethics of Corporate North America have slipped seriously in my life time and there is a price that will be paid for this over time. I would prove it to you over a cup of American Melita roasted coffee from Cherryhill, NJ if I ever have the opportunity.
Irvine, it seems that I may have travelled a similar route as you (… via …, Calgary via Waterloo, … via …, etc.), but have continued in my own journey. Before I say anything else, I’ve been observing your posts over the past few days and do appreciate the general tone of civility when juxtaposed amongst some noisier neighbours. Passionate outbursts are to be expected in such a blog, so are excused.
First a digression and correction. You are correct in stating in an earlier posting that Eastern oil does come from offshore, but not about there not being an oil pipeline into Ontario from the west. There is a pipeline, but its flow has been reversed so it now carries imported oil not only to the refineries in Sarnia, but acts as a conduit to go beyond our borders and feed US customers. In addition, we have Newfoundland in another peculiar situation — it, and the Western-based companies who partnered in its petroleum development, are benificiaries of the NEP by the way — exporting its oil rather than keeping it at home and feeding its own Come By Chance refinery for domestic consumption. A reversion of the Ontario pipeline to its former purpose and redirection of Newfoundland oil to Eastern provinces could drastrically curtail any importation of oil into this country. But then there’s that niggling FTA clause that requires Canada to reserve a large percentage of its production for export to the US. The country does need a national policy to address such glaring anomolies. To that I’d include in that an East-West electricity grid; it makes sense given that peak demand periods are driven by the clock and the sun and with multiple time zones, a levelling of load would definitely be beneficial. (Funny how interprovincial barriers are often more restrictive than international ones; you may know that from past runs into Field B.C. to circumvent Alberta beer strikes, only to be stymied by RCMP checkpoints).
Now to your anecdotes about traffic openings, stopping for pedestrians, and such in Calgary. I see that as a nice local idiosyncracy, but really read nothing more into it (I’ve been coast-to-coast and find drivers offering traffic openings to be pretty universal). When ranking drivers, I’d have to say that those in Quebec are the most “efficient”, but such efficiency translates into bad practices such as tail-gating, lane switching, cutting in, and hence not to be admired. On the other end of the spectrum are the unpredictable and inefficient practices in Alberta that used to drive me nuts. For example, dead stops on merge lanes rather than smoothly integrating into the traffic stream resulting in near-rear ends while doing a shoulder check, treating the passing lane on the Trans-Canada as the lane to drive below speed, forcing faster traffic to pass on the right.
I will agree with you about the cuisine that I believe you spoke about in yet another post. I think Calgary probably has the best restaurants per capita in the country. Especially the uniquely Calgarian variety of Peking Chinese. Expensive pizza though!
Now to your assertion that the “narrow minds” gather only in the East. Sorry my friend, that simply is not true, I’ve seen it both here and there: the door swings both ways. Such as a political class that openly castigated the Eastern “bums and creeps” (was there for that one). Or advocates to “let the Eastern bastards freeze in the dark” (now imagine in a future of drought caused by global warming – which you may dismiss but please bear with me – and consequent disappearance of glaciers that longer feed the Bow, South Saskatchewan, Milk Rivers [much like that witnessed in Glacier Park] if those same ‘bastards’ who shipped hay west in past droughts turned around and said “let the Western bastards die of thirst”). I’ve felt the undercurrent in meetings, open hostility in the field. I tell you, while for many years I missed the land, I’ve definitely never missed the politics.
As for whining, was it not but a few months ago when I heard a loud whine from oil producers, threatening to leave the province when the report came back suggesting that Alberta was not collecting enough royalties from its petroleum resources. Stelmach blinked. So it now seems that corporations are setting the agenda for government instead of the other way around. Peter Lougheed, the best leader the province has had in my opinion, has been openly critical of his successors as of late: the pace of oil sands development and its economic effects on the non-oil classes, the wasting away of the Heritage Fund that he was so careful to nurture because he recognized that natural resources are a finite source of wealth. Living fast and living the high life is not without its consequences.
I am glad to see that you are not particularly beholden to a given political philosophy. Political inbreeding is just as unhealthy as the biological kind. It’s funny how folks in Alberta will recognize that on the Federal level, but can’t seem to apply the same standard Provincially. Every other province in Confederation regularly cycle their goverments, but not Alberta. Only four governing parties in over a century, each holding court for decades at a stretch. The PCs are now in what, their 35th straight year? Don’t know about you, but I see that as detrimental.
Actually there are 159 liters in a US barrel.
Stan: what does gender have to do with a lawsuit?
By Judy on 07.09.08 10:25 pm
—————————————-
You were on some kind of nutty rant about how the CPC viewed women.
I’m just pointing out that you should look at how the liberals are treating this particular business woman.
As to Bonnie’s remarks about the liberals doing her a big favour by stealing her trademark, I guess she would be the best judge of that and that’s why she is sueing them for $8.75 million.
But like Jeniffer says, if ‘thegreenshift’ is no different than ‘greenshift’, try opening a fast food restaurant called ‘The Macdonalds’ and see what happens.
Sheesh.
By Harry S on 07.09.08 6:15 pm
So says the biggest laughing stock on this site .
ROTFLMAO
By Men With Hats on 07.09.08 7:42 pm
………………………………..
Why do you fear me so …???
Btw .. your ass and your hat have both fallen off … asshat …LOL
Your hatred for our neighbours to the south is showing. I won’t show my American wife (wouldn’t want her to see the central-Canadian bigotry against them).
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.09.08 8:51 pm
No,you are such a control freak you probably don’t let your wife anywhere near a computer .
The Liberals say they’ve done nothing wrong. Liberal MP David McGuinty told CTV Newsnet Wednesday afternoon that anyone can search the Internet for the phrase “green shift” and see just how often it pops up in the environmental movement. He said he was personally using the phrase in the early 1990s.
“It’s a bit mysterious — in fact, puzzling — why (the suit) is being launched now,” he said.
Wright has said a U.S. company is also using the term “green shift,” but she dropped legal efforts against that firm because of costs and geography.
No mystery here David . Wright’s lawsuit
is being underwritten and financed by CRAP .
She already knows she doesn’t own the name .
Ten years in business without making sure you own the so called trademark ?
That is a joke .
Ms, Wright is all wrong .
She smells like a con-bot to me .
You said no explanation as to why tax on deisel and not gasoline…obviously you can;t read or hear…too bad, maybe some kind soul will look up this information for you..I sure won’t….
BUT YOU ARE WRONG, THERE WAS A VERY DISTINCT EXPLANATION…—————
———————————–
Sorry bub,the west uses more diesel than the east and the east uses more gasoline than the west.
That’s the sole reason diesel will be taxed and gasoline will not be taxed.
Dion’s Green Shaft is big on telling us how much they will steal from the west and use to buy votes in the east, but it has no details on how it will help the environment.
I guess the reason Dion isn’t saying how much good it will do is because Europe has tried them for years and they are clearly a bad idea.
The PCs are now in what, their 35th straight year? Don’t know about you, but I see that as detrimental.
BY DUBE ON 07.09.08 10:53 PM
Thirty-seven Dube. Thirty-seven long years. As you know, it’s the political vacuum, always set on high ‘rev’ that keeps ‘em sucked in, smug and tight.
C.B.,
Actually I am quite happy and take great joy in educating you folks from the east…hatred? Nope only for people who would try and take away my livelihood all for their own selfish purposes.
If you reread everything that I’ve written you will see all that I’ve done is point out that IF someone tries and apply this stupid environmental policy which is only a NEP by another name, then the response from Alberta will be:
a. immediate (they already have a plan of attack);
b. relentless and culminates (if all of the other steps fail) with the Clarity Act (thanks Dion).
Unlike the majority of posters to this blog, I am not proposing to take away anything from anyone…just pointing the hypocracy of those here who purport to ‘be Canadian’…all the while suggesting that the way to that is to take the economic future away from those who own it.
Just like Turdeau and the rest of the liberal dream team.
I sleep very well at night though since I know that there is a plan, unlike the last time…
Ed the Hun
BY HARRY S ON 07.09.08 1:43 PM
lol! Harry, what if “we’s” were all “you’s”?
You are a good pet, even if you do pee pee on Garth’s blog all day, with your sole assignment of dumping on Dion.
The PCs are now in what, their 35th straight year? Don’t know about you, but I see that as detrimental.
By Dube on 07.09.08 10:53 pm
Yes,Dube . It is frustrating to hear these clowns bleat on an on about changing the government in Ottawa.
Meanwhile they have had nothing but right wing governments for over fourty years .
In the Mulroney era every seat in Alberta went con .
With that kind of thick-headed thinking it is little wonder they have squandered their oil resources and been ripped off for years by the oil companies and their inadequate compensation for royalties .
Actually James your comments clearly reflect a bigotted slant that I would only hope is the result of you getting ‘carried away’ in your efforts to express your opinion.
So what is your point? That you are 48 years old and are one of those central Canadians who hates all that is American (except for hard-working, educated black folks?)
“us working people…” James, Alberta has the highest percentage of people working out of all of the provinces (by far — check the participating rates). You are assuming a great deal in your position regarding who might be a ‘working’ guy and who might not be.
What in the hell is the ‘real America’? Is that like those that hang out in Atlanta or somewhere? Or would that be in California? What exactly is a real American?
I learned information that I have no business knowing and have met some very interesting people (former Seals and Special Forces).
Well maybe not quite as exciting, but I ran into the Special Ops guys hanging out in Kandahar, worked with the boys and girls from the Alaska National Guard, broke bread with the 10 Mountain Division (as well as the Dutch National Army, the British SAS, the Aussie Special Forces (you get the picture right).
As far as the cup of coffee, I much more prefer Sumatra or a good ole’ Tim Hortons.
You talk about ‘corporate’ greed?
I am talking about a political greed…about a party with a philosophy that insists on taking one of the main economic pillars of this great province and destroying it for the benefit of people in other parts of this country. All for greed and power (i.e. to get voted into power).
Last time this happened, Alberta and Saskatchewan were woefully unprepared. By the end of the debacle (when the NEP was revoked) the Western Canada Concept Party had arisen, the economy of Alberta was badly damaged, all so that the east could have ‘cheap’ gas.
This time there is a crew within the Alberta government (think Morton for example) who are closely watching signs for the expected revival of NEP II (or some iterattion thereof). And unlike the last time, the government will not allow the federal liberal party try to recreate the same outcome of the last NEP. Too many lives were destroyed out here and all that I am doing is pointing out that any attempt to recreate the 1980’s will be met by the government and people of Alberta with all steps to protect the livelihoods and economic future of this province.
Canada as a whole could benefit from that (think about how much more Alberta already contributes to Ottawa (highest per capita contribution by far to the federal government), as well as all of the work that is performed by industry in Ontario, not to mention all of the ‘transient’ workers that currently call Alberta home (because of a paycheque). And of course the fact that the LARGEST benefactor from activities in the Alberta oil industry is the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT (which takes a bigger piece of that pie than the Alberta government does).
Nope, until the liberal head office has a change to its board of governors and they develop a truly national outlook (that includes respecting provincial responsibilities), the libs will be doomed to being little more than a rump party for the big cities (and the maritime provinces, kind of, since I suspect that Nova Scotia and Danny-boy from the Rock aren’t none too happy with Dion’s plan either).
Ed the Hun
Hey Stan
By Stan on 07.09.08 9:11 pm
Just because some one says Bush is a stupid bastard doesn’t mean that the whole party is trash. Or does it in your world? If so, time to tip the Harper Cons into the bin for Stephen Harper saying East Coast Canadians are defeatists.
Way to build that wall, Stephen. Truly, only a true Ontarion could bamboozle Alberta into thinking you’re one of them! And do it so well that they’re lapping it up like barely-weaned piglets. Hat’s off to Harper; he’s taking the west without them even knowing it.
Once this division is settled will mean political parties will not have to sell their souls to buy votes.
By David Halfkenny on 07.09.08 8:58 pm
Glad to see you agree that the Cons are as bad as the Liberals in this regard. I guess the promise they (Cons) made to be different, accountable, transparent, etc…was all a lie….
I too lived in Quebec for 19 years…and I don’t blame the Province for fleecing the Feds…I blame all Federal governments…which is exactly why the party system has outlived its usefulness and we need to move to an Independent Government.
Alberta would have no great incentive to join the US. We would still have plenty to sell them and we wouldn’t be handcuffed by having to give away concessions to them to help out the Ontario auto industry like we did when the free trade deal was signed.
See ya!
By Stan on 07.09.08 8:09 pm
LMAO…do you think an Independent Alberta would be allowed to exist, the U.S. would take you over in a nanosecond.
And if I had hair on my kitchen table I`d be a Liberal with a hairless dog, what`s your point?
By got rope? on 07.09.08 8:22 pm
Oh nothing.. just that with arguments like that – the logic of the above which is predicated on all Liberals owning dogs that are shaved on kitchen tables is just mind blowingly awesome.
No wonder the Tories are just “flirting” with majority territory.
This is based on your responses to me and others which indicate that:
a) you have no sense of humour;
b) you can dish it but can’t really take it;
c) your internal BS meter is being either deliberately ignored or not even there since you can’t see the flaws in your arguments; and
d) your assumption/belief that there is only one way of thinking (yours) and anyone else is stupid and/or an idiot.
Yup – this will get you far in life. ..
By Ed the Hun on 07.10.08 12:21 am,
You have been advocating the break-up of Canada with one province becoming part of another country. That takes a great deal away from our country and divides British Columbia from the rest of Canada just as Quebec separatism would divide Atlantic Canada from the rest of the country.
Those kinds of divisions have been proven not to work in land blocked territories. You are advocating taking something away from us: our country. That is why separatists get no sympathy for their positions from all except those who are anti-Canadian.
By Stan on 07.09.08 11:40 pm
Wrong again, keep researching, you just might stumble upon the reason for taxing deisel but not gasoline…
By Barb the proof-reader on 07.10.08 12:39 am
lol! Harry, what if “we’s” were all “you’s”?
You are a good pet, even if you do pee pee on Garth’s blog all day, with your sole assignment of dumping on Dion.
………………………………..
Barb … why is it that your comments are virtually identical to those of Men With AssHat … are you both the same person perchance??
As for “dumping on Dion” .. I challenge you to show us where I do that on this topic thread. I believe I have presented arguments that reveal Dion’s “hidden agenda” surrounding his Green Shift, the Kyoto compliance act and our Kyoto treaty obligations.
Nowhere have you challenge the facts I presented, instead you are posting feeble personal attacks in a futile attempt to throw sand in people’s eyes … but all you achieve is revealing your deep deep fear of the facts I have presented. Otherwise, you are quite pathetic.
Ed and Stan DO NOT represent ALberta or the ALberta government.
The two factions in the ALberta COnservative Party are the Rural Cons and the Urban Cons. Ted Morton leads most of the Rural Con faction and it was quite a feat to reconcile Ted’s faction so that Ed could become leader. Ted got his spot in cabinet and Ed got to be leader.
The main reason the Alberta COnservatives are still in power is because their is no other alternative. the Provincial Liberals are leaderless with no plan and the New Democrats are a rump that is too far left for most Albertans.
Right now the Rural faction is running the Conservative Party and are being led around by the nose by Big Oil but the thinking is “what is good for big oil is good for ALberta” We will see.
Ted and his faction are sitting in the wings waiting for Ed to flounder and after one term for him the word is they will help him flounder so Ted can take his rightful place as leader of the Alberta Cons and ergo the Premier.
That is their logic and if they can manipulate the politics right next comes the Republic of Alberta.
What they don’t realize is that the urban vote actually controls the agenda and I say that vote will be mobilized if Stan and Ed try to action their plan.
So don’t count your “votes” just yet gentleman their is a lot more to happen and we are watching and waiting too.
d) your assumption/belief that there is only one way of thinking (yours) and anyone else is stupid and/or an idiot.
Theo on 07.10.08 7:23 am
You got all that out of my hairless dog named Queen Anne? Amazing.
——————–
Not all Albertans are westerns secessionists”.
By Theo on 07.09.08 4:53 pm
But all secessionists that Garth referred to are Albertans and according to Garth, losers.
———–
and now for something completely different, trademark MPFC
`if your dog don`t hunt, it could be a table`
Calberta,
Psst, check up on Ted Morton’s background. You’ll see a trend…
That he is actually more of an advocate for the ‘firewall mentality’ that Ed Stelmach.
Pro-oil? Big Oil cried long and hard when the the revised royalties were rolled out just recently. Big Oil is waiting for Honest Ed to fail so that they can try and see a more pro-Big Oil premier put into the seat.
Oh and to some earlier poster who was criticizing the use of Alberta’s revenues…over $45.0Billion in various pots (heritage fund, Stablibization, Capital, medical endowment, education endowment, GHG fund, etc), as well as having killed an $20.0 Billion + debt.
All on top of offering the lowest income tax regime (personal & corporate — oh did you hear that starting next year, no more health insurance premiums), no provincial sales tax, on top of sending billions to Ottawa to help keep a hospital open in some backwoods town in the east coast (did you know that the maritimes have the most healthcare facilities per capita, way ABOVE Ontario’s).
Nope, not to bad at all….
Ed the Hun
cablerta:
You said:
“We will see.
Ted and his faction are sitting in the wings waiting for Ed to flounder and after one term for him the word is they will help him flounder so Ted can take his rightful place as leader of the Alberta Cons and ergo the Premier.
That is their logic and if they can manipulate”
Given the results of the last election (72 of a possible 83 seats – the ndp are down to 2 and the libs to 9) Steady Eddie will be there for quite a while me-thinks…
Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.09.08 6:53 pm
Brain, you said:
“Links please and keep in mind this is in Ontario, not western Canada where the east imports and the west export”
Actually the links would mean having to attend a few meetings and me giving up the names of some managers (that I’d just as soon not do).
Oh I know you won’t believe me, but given the GHG uncertainty in Ontario, the industry is asking why build a refinery when we don’t know the future cost of that decision (carbon tax).
Now the plan is to reactivate/expand the refinery row in Alberta (Ft. Saskatchewan) or to move the capacity to the US (where is no GHG requirements).
Too bad Ontario could have used the jobs…I’ll bet the mayor of Sarnia will be taking both McSquinty and Dion off of his Christmas list. – Ed the Hun
By Ed the Hun on 07.09.08 7:12 pm
Brain, you said:
“I’m beginning to think I’m reading the words of the mind of a child, now. Close to 4 million people live in TO and GTA. How many people live in the tarsands?”
What has that got to do with anything? We are talking about the environment aren’t we? Toronto (its land mass) has a bigger ‘footprint’ that the mining operations in the tar sands. Fact.
The 4.0million residents drive cars, use electricity, burn fuel to heat their homes resulting in more GHG emissions that the tar sands. Fact.
The real issue that is that there are only about 50,000 residents in the Ft. Mac area as compared to the 4.0 million. A much larger pool from which to obtain voters.
If this was about the environment, then there would be carbon taxes on the gas being consumed by the people living in Ontario.
Industry would be shut down to reduce the POLLUTION that gives Toronto such amazing sunrises (all of the airborne pollutants).
Oh and let us NOT forget about the trainloads of garbage that Toronto sends to Michigan every day…
Yup if this was REALLY about the environnment the policies would be MUCH different. – Ed the Hun
Ed… if you are trying to make C02 comparisons between TO and the tarsands, let me remind you that if the government wants/needs to reduce emissions in a hurry, oil producing refineries is the quickest way to get it done.
Clearly, the average consumer needs to do more and for this to happen, it will take a more educated consumer and consumer pressure/advocates putting pressure on manufacturers to build products that consume less energy straight across the board from auto and trucks to furnaces to electric devices and that means higher MPG regs, higher BTU regs, higher volt regs, the works.
Essentially, its like this Ed. To tackle C02 emissions in this nation and give the world a gold standard under which to live by (which clearly, both feds have failed, but especially so, this do nothing Harper government on climate change (not to mention a host of other departments except the ones that shouldn’t be systematically changed or touched, shaking my head), it will take a concentrated effort on all fronts from consumers to manufacturers to refiners and like I say, the only arguments one can have against doing something is to deny man made climate change is happening or deny the reality that its first world nations that are going to lead the way on C02 emmissions.
Will the U.S. lead? No. Their governments are far too corrupt. Will Europe? Perhaps, but they don’t produce energy like Canada/US does. Will Russia? Hardly. So who does that leave to take the intitative? It leaves Canada and to think we haven’t got a serious leadership role to play, is to be so friggin’ dense, I don’t have the proper words to describe it (either that, or just plain immoral, dumb assed when it comes to the love of our children, and CHEAP).
So to recap, Ed… to get the quickest results on the issue, it will take emissions controls at the refinery level and if it hurts the largest oil producers of this nation and that happens to be Alta and Sask, SO BE IT.
The question you have to ask, is by how much. Do you want hard caps? Hardly. Do you want cap and trade? Doesn’t get it done, Ed. Its do nothing policy with dozens of loopholes that pave the way for failure. Whats left is a tax on carbon and the Lib plan is in essence, the softest way to go. If you want a hard core refinery C02 tax try the Green’s C02 carbon tax that starts at %$50 bucks a tonne overnight.
Now as to the incessant, poorly thought out “Alta has to separate if oil producers to don’t get their way”, crap, I’ll ask it again. (this is three times now, by the way)
ITS THEE QUESTION, ED:
How many barrels of oil are being currently produced that emit on average a tonne of C02 emissions by refineries that have done absolutely nothing to attempt to capture C02?
If you come up with this number and figure out the profits at todays oil prices per barrel minus the carbon tax and put into the equation the capital/annual costs of C02 sequestering to lower that tax for oil producers (with accurate numbers I might add) and can still with a straight face tell this forum that that “cost” is worth Alberta’s time to separate, then I would have to consider you to be several thousand bricks short of a load. You get me?
Is this clear enough for you?
Is there any confusion with the question, mr. money manager make or break “lets build a refinery here, lets not build one there” so you lead us to believe?
Because when push comes to shove, anyone, I repeat, anyone in the kind of position you claim yourself to be in needs to know the answer to that question (three times I’ve asked it now) if they have any semblance of knowing their own job in light of fed government alternatives to climate change and what I think it is that you claim to be.
Wrong again, keep researching, you just might stumble upon the reason for taxing deisel but not gasoline…
By jwp on 07.10.08 8:35 am
—————————————
Sorry pal, you can pretend the GreenShaft plan to tax diesel but not gasoline is due to some mysterious reason that only you know, but it’s abundantly clear that the only reason is because Dion/Borat figures he can buy more votes that way.
Look at the Europeans, they use more diesel, it’s more efficient and cleaner.
Gasoline is dirtier but taxing gasoline wouldn’t buy as many votes in Ontario.
The west uses proportionality more diesel than gasoline, the east uses more gasoline.
That’s why Dion is going to tax the cleaner fuel and leave the dirtier fuel un taxed.
Vote buying, that’s what it’s all about, not the environment.
Only a gullible sap would believe otherwise.
By Stan on 07.10.08 2:37 pm
Diesel engines do not pass the particulate test on emmissions, that is most likely why we do not see such an abbundence of diesel motors over this side of the Atlantic.
Diesel engines do not pass the particulate test on emmissions, that is most likely why we do not see such an abbundence of diesel motors over this side of the Atlantic.
By Marc on 07.10.08 2:50 pm
We have higher air quality standards than Europe but they are way ahead on Kyoto.
How does that work?
Diesels produce significantly lower levels of greenhouse gases, the gas that this whole vote buying scheme pretends to address.
If indeed Dion wanted to lower greenhouse gases, using diesel is a good way to do it.
Bet we all know this plan isn’t about greenhouse gases, it’s about buying votes in the east.
The latest and greatest diesels are more efficient that a Prius and clean enough to run in all 51 states.
Since Canada uses ultralow sulphur diesel, the problems with sulphur don’t show up in diesels here.
By Stan on 07.10.08 2:37 pm
I’ll give you a hint…excise tax….things starting to ring a bell now Stan…come on, no one is that uninformed…
By got rope? on 07.10.08 3:13 pm
WHo knows, it is all voo doo to me how carbon trading and such schemes achieve lower overall emmissions. I think Europe might be farther ahead on Kyoto as they use more nuclear energy then we will ever have.
So taxing diesel that produces less greenhouse gases and not taxing gasoline which produces more greenhouse gases makes sense if you want to reduce greenhouse gases?
Wow.
Maybe Dion is right.
Maybe they are dumb enough to fall for it.
You’d have to be quite the sap buy into a program that produces the exact opposite result that it pretends to.
But then how is that different than Kyoto which would have transferred production from clean industry in Canada to dirty industry in China?
By Stan on 07.10.08 3:57 pm
You asked why tax on diesel and not gasoline, you got your answer and you go off on a tangent about diesel emitting less etc etc…if you wanted to make that point maybe you should have rephrased your question…LMAO…
Garth How much of an effect did your Green Shaft carbon tax have on the decision to cancel Shell’s refinery in Sarnia? They will now build in US.
None, I’d say. Do you have evidence to the contrary? After al this is a policy position from an opposition party when there is no election. Nice that Shell might think we’ll win, though. — Garth
If Dion was truly progressive and committed to the reduction of GHGs and overall pollution, he would have heavily taxed gasoline. By omitting gasoline and excusing it on the basis of the federal 10¢ per litre excise tax and calling it a ‘carbon tax’ is just a devious way of fishing for votes.
If Dion was truly ‘green’, he would have increased the federal excise ‘carbon’ tax on gasoline. He didn’t and that exposes his further lack of credibility within his Green Shift tax scheme.
That’s my opinion and most of those in the environmental movement too.
“Is this clear enough for you?
Is there any confusion with the question, mr. money manager make or break “lets build a refinery here, lets not build one there” so you lead us to believe?
Because when push comes to shove, anyone, I repeat, anyone in the kind of position you claim yourself to be in needs to know the answer to that question (three times I’ve asked it now) if they have any semblance of knowing their own job in light of fed government alternatives to climate change and what I think it is that you claim to be.
By brain on 07.10.08 12:54 pm”
Brain, ask the question a hundred times, but at least make the question clear.
What is the green shift policy about?
a. cleaning up the environment (in that questionable CO2 issue — questionable because no matter how many times people it is ‘proven’ science, there are many scientists who argue the science does NOT support man-made climate change); or
b. the usual liberal approach to governing which is to divide the country in order to put and keep itself in power?
Now let us look at this:
Assuming that this policy is about the environment (reducing Canada’s GHG impact to reduce global climate change) the policy that Dion and his band of merry men is proposing does NOTHING to reduce that impact UNLESS the taxes are high enough to discourage investment in the carbon-based industries (which almost exclusively reside in the prairies). Reduced activities means loss of job, loss of income tax revenue and in the case of the royalties, a loss both because of reduced activities (extraction) as well as the transfer of monies from the corporations which perform their business in the carbon industry (the Dion Carbon Tax). Money gets transferred to the eastern voter (where there is hardly any ‘carbon-based’ industry, while the western resident gets hit mulitple ways (our fuel charges increase (diesel), the cost to heat our homes and businesses increase (the only way to heat our buildings during a winter that is both longer and colder than that suffered out east is by using natural gas) and by increasing the cost of our electricity (over 90% of the electricity offered in the prairies either originates from natural gas or coal). Those costs get passed onto the consumer because the industry (in Alberta) is not government (it has been privated). Additionally, EPCOR (a major electical generating company in Alberta, is owned by the City of Edmonton) who earns income to keep the cost of our property taxes at least in sight of reality (expected to average around 10% over the next 5 years). So the City will see its revenue stream curtailed, meaning to keep up the services, my property taxes will have to go up. To make the issue worse, the cost to the city to operate will increase as well since it too has to heat its buildings (now at a higher cost as dictated by the carbon tax) and the cost of its bus service will increase (guess what, diesel). The Light Rail Transit (train) will be impacted as well.
So as an Albertan this stupid plan will hurt me on all levels and will hardly impact (relatively thinking) any other resident in this country.
And IF the libs were REALLY concerned about the environment (as you say), then a carbon tax on gasoline (used relatively MORE in Ontario/Quebec) would be a VERY effective way to curtail its use and the relatively LARGER impact that it has on CO2 production (which is the main cause of global warming — wait WATER VAPOUR is actually a much larger impact, so HYDRO production too is a DIRECT contributor to man’s impact on global warming, so for this to be a TRULY “we care about the environment/global warming” actions would be taken to reduce the use of gasoline and hydro (because both are MAJOR contributors to global warming). But that won’t happen will it?
b. taking money (and like the last NEP) from the west to ‘bribe’ the voter in the east to win themselves that coveted place of power in Ottawa. As I’ve indicated previously, IF they attempt this again (like the 1970-1980), Alberta HAS a plan in place that it will activate since Ed Stelmach (and many within the government) have decreed that there will not be repeat of the 1980’s. How might they prevent it, you might ask?
Well they will try many things (i.e. intergovernmental discussions, revisiting constitutional challenges, structuring the province of Alberta in such a manner as to make the remainder of Canada unstable (i.e. having NO (0) corporate tax — head offices will flee Toronto to find a tax free haven (relatively speaking) or having 0 personal income tax — that would draw so many people that much of the rest of the country would empty out and/or immigration from the US would quickly push Alberta’s population past Quebecs (current estimates project Alberta’s population reaching 5.0Million by 2020)). The final step would be to use the Clarity Act and seek to remove Alberta from the Confederacy, if all else fails.
What you do NOT understand (nor the liberal brain trust) is that the pain and suffering (both on the governmental-level, but especially on the individual level was so bad, that this government (and especially those who really hold the power in the backrooms – think Maurice Strong’s equivalent in Alberta) will take this country to the brink to protect its citizens.
Alberta has always been more than a fair player in this country (it pays up without question — even though including resource revenue in the equalization equation should not have happened — recall resource revenue is provincial). Even though Ontario (and worse yet Quebec) subsidize their renewal resources (residents in Ontario and Quebec DO NOT pay the actual cost of the electricity — Albertans do) and this is NOT included in determining equalization, LIBERALS ALWAYS look to steal from the prairies. Likely because they couldn’t get members elected if the future of mankind depended upon it.
The difference between them and the current government is that Harper (likely because of his reform roots) RESPECTS provincial jurisdictions and is NOT going after Ontario or Quebec or anywhere in order to buy or coerce votes to gain power.
The liberals, from our perspective, do the exact opposite and intentionally harm parts of this country to get voted into power.
The difference this time is that Alberta learned from the last time and will not be subjected to a repeat performance. It is even willing to offer to Albertans (because it would be THEIR decision) the option of separating to remove itself from a country where one particular party is hell bent on sacrificing their futures for the benefit of power. I suggest that if it came to that, the outcome would be a foregone conclusion. I suggest that it would be a yes response to separate IF THAT IS THE LAST OPTION AVAILABLE.
Just my opinion….
Ed the Hun
Brain,
Finally, while I am a skeptic regarding man’s role in global climate change, ignoring that, the Alberta government has announced spending a total of $4.0 Billion to deal with CO2 production. In fact, it is hoped that with the $2.0 Billion investment to develop a CO2 CCS system on a provincial level, that since the greenies have turned CO2 into a COMMODITY (there is a price attached to it — HEY did you know that Alberta has put a price on CO2 2 years ago? The difference is that industry pays into it which is then used to develop technologies to deal with environmental challenges that exist in Alberta by its industry and not to fund some socialist type program somewhere else), Alberta will have the ONLY CCS system in the world that will make CO2 storage feasible on a economical basis.
In fact, the Alberta PC Party may have outsmarted Garth and his team since once this is up and running, companies trying to reduce their CO2 output, may end up having to pay Alberta to store their ‘pollution’. I just can’t get over the irony….more to follow.
Ed the Hun
You asked why tax on diesel and not gasoline, you got your answer and you go off on a tangent about diesel emitting less etc etc…if you wanted to make that point maybe you should have rephrased your question…LMAO…
By jwp on 07.10.08 4:30 pm ————-
—————————————
The whole advertised reason for this program was to tax things that produced C02 and reward those things that reduced C02.
Taxing diesel and not gasoline is going exactly against the stated intent of the program.
So explaining to the liberal wienies that the program will produce the exact opposite result that it is claimed to is hardly going off on a tangent.
Unless of course you mean that discussing this policy’s effect on the environment is going off on a tangent because the real intent of the program is to buy votes in the east?
Yeah, we got that part already.
Funny how this has gone from being the central plank in a liberal election campaign to just another policy paper from an opposition party.
‘Move along, nothing to see here folks’.
I guess that’s a sure sign that the wheels are falling off this disaster of a program.
What are the polls telling you about this latest fiasco Garth?
From the back pedaling, I’d say it isn’t good news.
I didn’t decide to change parties. — Garth
Actually you did. Garth for once take responsibility for you actions. Did you or did you not decide to become a Liberal or did Dion make that decison for you?
I was not in a party when I joined the Liberals. But this is ancient history. — Garth
As for being with the Libs, well, it is now the party of the moderate centre, a good place for a PC to be. — Garth
Sorry to burst your ballon Garth but the current Federal liberal party is not moderate centre as you would have us believe. They are in fact left of centre and even a little more so under Dion’s leadership. There is three left of centre parties ( Libs, Greens & NDP) and one right of centre ( Con’s) Currently we have no party that is moderately centre.
“Garth How much of an effect did your Green Shaft carbon tax have on the decision to cancel Shell’s refinery in Sarnia? They will now build in US.
None, I’d say. Do you have evidence to the contrary? After all this is a policy position from an opposition party when there is no election. Nice that Shell might think we’ll win, though. — Garth”
Nope they don’t think you might win, but they (like any business) do not like cost uncertainties. The Ontario Government’s lack of movement on the environmental issues means that there is a void and in the absence of a policy, the possibility that something like the Carbon Tax MIGHT become the policy will cause businesses to seek a jurisdiction with a firm investment environment with known costs to their operations.
Ontario is hardly that place.
Ed the Hun
Fiction. — Garth
Dion’s plan will have the effect of raising the cost of doing business, in other words it’s the same as raising the corporate income tax rate.
That isn’t a very smart idea if there is a recession on the way.
Wrong. Only carbon emitters pay, and only in the proportion that they continue to emit. The point of the exercise is to reduce those emissions. Do you agree with that goal? — Garth
Fiction. — Garth
By Ed the Hun on 07.10.08 8:13 pm
Fiction or symptom of something much larger?
Investors started bailing on Ontario in 2002 along with jobs. This became a total withdrawal of investment over 3 years ago, long before the green tax shift was a political agenda.
Not one politician of any level has addressed this lack of confidense with anything resembling cause yet something this big is prime investigation by governments looking for a fix and opposition looking for a bash.
The type of investment we lost is long term so investors know the long term outlook is grim. I`ve known it, and investors know it.
Governments know it so what are they hiding from? The answer is us.
Don`t expect government to come clean on what the`ve done to create a financial death rattle to the Cdn economy in everything but globally priced commodities that the Cdn government has no control or influence over.
Perhaps the problem is a badly broken government or perhaps it`s a deterioration of the Cdn society but it is the most serious problem Canada has and not even Garth is threading on the lack of investor confidence.
That`s what you get for voting in one dysfunctional government after another.
Ed, if I’m reading what you’re saying here, then you’re implying that Alberta essentially subsidizes electricity production in all of Canada, let alone Ontario and Quebec, because all provinces except Alberta have Crown Corporations for power generation and have either not, or have only partially, deregulated their industries. Is this a correct interpretation, and if so, could you provide solid proof of this? It is quite an assertion and if indeed true, one would have to ask why Alberta deregulated its own industry since it would not demonstrate prudent management.
Only carbon emitters pay, and only in the proportion that they continue to emit. The point of the exercise is to reduce those emissions. Do you agree with that goal? — Garth
I for one agree with the goal but can`t agree that `emitters pay`.
If one compares the Liberal machines ability to manage a program of this magnitude, I recall the long gun registry. Ordinarily I`d let it ride but I`ve asked several times how much admin costs will be and where will that money come from. Not having an answer to that I couldn`t possibly believe the Liberals have this tax shift on paper and quite likely could really believe they actually can make the emitter pay without losing the industry to bankruptcy or offshore.
The emitters add the increased costs to production passing it on till the consumer pays more for the product. It could mean the emitters pay the government out of the increased revenue from the increased price while the consumer also pays a tax along with, and on, the increased price. If that adds up to emitters pays and stays you`ll need to spell it out because I don`t see it.
Dion’s plan will have the effect of raising the cost of doing business, in other words it’s the same as raising the corporate income tax rate.
That isn’t a very smart idea if there is a recession on the way.
Wrong. Only carbon emitters pay, and only in the proportion that they continue to emit. The point of the exercise is to reduce those emissions. Do you agree with that goal? — Garth
————————————-
Ridiculous.
Here’s one simple example.
The cost of diesel will go up, that will affect the cost everything that all businesses do.
Want more?
The cost electricity will go up, that will affect the price of everything business does.
This stupid tax will have the same result as raising corporate income taxes which is a stupid thing to do with a recession looming.
But then when policy decided by how many votes can be bought with it, it’s unlikely to very wise economics.
Garth, I realize it’s your job to defend this policy, but please, you’re embarrassing yourself.
You say this policy is designed to lower carbon emissions by making emitters pay but by exempting gasoline and taxing diesel fuel it will have the opposite effect since gasoline produces more C02 than diesel.
That was the whole idea wasn’t it? Dion said that it would change people’s behavior by making emitting carbon more expensive.
This policy will have the opposite effect of its stated goal since it will tax the cleaner fuel and exempt the dirty one.
Give it up bub, it’s over.
Gas is already taxed, and the plan would also require far better auto efficiency. Your comments are interesting but misguided. — Garth
Gas is already taxed, and the plan would also require far better auto efficiency. — Garth
Auto makers say it will take two years to gear up for subcompacts with no time line on increasing fuel mileage. Improving efficiency `far better` will take investment which brings us back to investor confidence. What`s the plan to restore that of which without the requirement to improve efficiency is just an idea without hope of success, would you rather explain the problem first, solution second?
“far better auto efficiency” also brings more questions. I`ve been reviewing the latest data on gasoline production, consumption and export. Besides admin costs yet to be answered on the green tax shift and who pays the emitter to pay the carbon tax, do you have a figure on how much is `far better efficiency`.
Do you have any numbers Garth or is this green tax shift just a polical idea/stunt?
This policy is supposed to be about changing behaviour by changing tax rates.
If the tax rate increases on diesel fuel but not on gasoline, by your own logic, gasoline usage will increase while diesel usage will drop.
It doesn’t matter that both gasoline and diesel fuel are already taxed.
The increase in the tax on diesel will make it less competitive as a fuel vs gasoline on which the tax rate doesn’t change.
That’s the whole logic of your Green Shaft program yet you deny that it will make a difference.
Your program either effects consumption and usage patterns by increasing taxes or it doesn’t.
It boils down that you are increasing the tax on the fuel that produces less C02 while leaving the tax rate the same on the fuel that produces higher more C02.
Like I said, quit embarrassing yourself by trying to defend this illogical mess of a program.
Quit while you’re ahead.
Better still, I’ll just quit you. — Garth
So I see no one has an explanation as to why the program is designed to do exactly the opposite of it’s stated goal.
I guess my explanation that the GreenShaft is not about reducing C02 emissions, and that it’s about buying votes with money taken from the West is the correct one and that this part of it will actually increase C02 emissions.
No one has given a credible alternative to that explanation.
One would think that the MP who is a special communications adviser on this program would know the explanation if there was one.
Looks like I’m right again.
Yawn.
“Ed, if I’m reading what you’re saying here, then you’re implying that Alberta essentially subsidizes electricity production in all of Canada, let alone Ontario and Quebec, because all provinces except Alberta have Crown Corporations for power generation and have either not, or have only partially, deregulated their industries. Is this a correct interpretation, and if so, could you provide solid proof of this? It is quite an assertion and if indeed true, one would have to ask why Alberta deregulated its own industry since it would not demonstrate prudent management.”
By Dube on 07.10.08 9:30 pm
Dube, the proof of Alberta’s power deregulation can be found all over the place. but for ease here is a link (just google electricity alberta — hits will arise everywhere).
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa5406/is_200107/ai_n21477728
The main reasons were two-fold:
a. one because of the regulated market (at the time), there was no investment going into expanding the network (the government would have to do it). Thus, electricity was artifically kept below the cost to produce. There was no expansion happening and the system costs were being added to the government’s operating budget (causing an increase in the operating expenses, thereby causing income tax increases). The government wanted to make users pay the cost of the electricity that they used.
b. In addition, it was believed that the open market would attract competitors, who should drive down the costs. That has had some success.
c. Finally to encourage conservation, the government, working from a belief of making a user pay to empower them to control their costs, saw deregulation as a means to force the consumer (user) to confront their habits and decide to save money by reducing use. This has been a very successful practice.
To go through all of the other provinces would be too time consuming, but if I recall, the portion of the Ontario debt assigned to power/electricity is around $20.0B of the total $140.0B in debt is assigned to power generation/distribution/etc.
As far as ’subsidizing’ the other problems, I would suggest that only in the context that the recipient province receives equalization payments and are welcome to apply those funds to their operating budgets as they see fit.
Ed the Hun
“Gas is already taxed, and the plan would also require far better auto efficiency. Your comments are interesting but misguided. — Garth”
Garth so is diesel and given that the price of diesel is actually higher than gas, the gst cut is higher on diesel than on gas.
Ed the Hun
This whole GreenShaft is starting to look like it’s insane and that it was designed to screw the West.
Now where have I heard that before?
Stan,
This diesel versus gas business that you’ve been pounding on sounds like an exercise in trying to muddy the waters. If one travels on the 401 in Ontario and the Transcanada out west, it will become quite anecdotally apparent that the 401 wins when it comes to volumes of trucks. The right hand lane on any weekday looks almost like a train whose cars are comprised of 18 wheelers, a train that stretches for hundreds of kilometres. The manufacturing sector and its embrace of just-in-time supply chains demand it. If one looks at this chart, the four provinces whose transport trucks exceed the national average for distances travelled are, in order: Ontario, Yukon, Manitoba, Quebec.
http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/publications/statistics/cvs05/images/largeimage5.htm
You may distiguish diesel from “heavy fuel”, but if you consider it as part of that umbrella statement, you’ll find the following consumption trends, broken down by industry:
http://www.statcan.ca/english/research/11-621-MIE/2007062/tables/table2.htm
Big consumers are pulp and paper, marine transport, electrical utilities, and other. Pulp and paper is predominantly found in BC and Ontario, Quebec, and the Atlantic Provinces.
It is obvious where one would encounter marine transport: the same areas as pulp and paper. Electricity generation that uses heavy fuel is located as follows:
I cannot comment on “Other” since there is no explanation.
Incidentally, I’d like to see more diesel passenger vehicles here in Canada, if their output of all pollutants can be kept in check. I know owners of them and they swear by them: extended range of travel on a tank of fuel, a quality to their drive that they have a hard time expressing in words. Last time I rented a car, I purposely tried to get one just so I could experience this for myself; unfortunately none were available at the time. At Christmas, my brother-in-law told me of vehicle being developed in Europe that can burn both gasoline and diesel. This sounded questionable to me, given the nature of the engines, but who knows. I tried to find a description of such vehicle on the internet, but to no avail.
Interesting Dube, but that doesn’t explain why the tax on gasoline isn’t increasing while the tax on diesel is.
The big difference is the east uses more gasoline while the west uses more diesel and the liberals don’t have much for voters in the west, so screw them.
You also forgot all the farming and mining that uses diesel.
Another little point, Air Canada just laid off several hundred workers, now Dion wants to increase the cost of jet B.
Brilliant. All this pain for an imaginary problem.
Dube, I wonder if you heard of a dual fuel diesel engine that uses natural gas and diesel?
They use a small injection of diesel fuel to provide the ignition source for the main fuel that is natural gas or propane.
Caterpillar builds some of them but most of their natural gas engines are diesels that have been modified to burn natural gas and use carburetors and a spark ignition system plus a lower compression ratio.
“As for “dumping on Dion” .. I challenge you to show us where I do that on this topic thread. I believe I have presented arguments that reveal Dion’s “hidden agenda”
… but all you achieve is revealing your deep deep fear of the facts I have presented. Otherwise, you are quite pathetic.”
BY HARRY S 07.10.08 10:22 AM
In the above post you say you don’t dump on Dion, and then you do so in your next sentence.
Every day people here post links to prove that your posts are inaccurate and misleading. You attack and try to discredit the Green Shift with incorrect information. People notice. Keep it up, you discredit yourself everyday.
The Alberta Pundit-Werner Patals, Says that the “textbook Ontarian” is:
“always trying to get their hands on other people’s money to fund their lifestyle because being self-reliant, creating a free and unfettered market economy without government influence and forcing people to work for a living, rather than relying on handouts all the time, are, sadly, concepts and principles foreign to Ontario.”
Right……now I can already see a lot of Albertans nodding their heads saying yeah that’s right. Dam Easterners! Dam liberals!
Fine and I don’t think that there is anything anyone can do or say that will change that sort of thinking. As it has gotten to the point in Alberta where people can say these comments without ever justifying them in fact.
1.) Ontarians receive 20 billion less than they pay into the federation for things like, the Canada health and social transfer, public pensions, equalization and employment insurance(IE). Interestingly Albertans receive more in IE benefits than they pay into the program; which actually means they are taking Ontario’s money. (these facts were taken from the national post blog section)
2.) Ontarians work the most hours per week of any other Canadians. hmmm…Not self-reliant?
3.) Handouts? Please define handout? I personally have never received a handout that I can recall. Ummmm, I did receive the GST refund when I was a university student, which was something like $49.00 every 4 months which is given to poor people to make the tax more progressive. I also got tax credits for my tuition….Are these handouts?
Now, on the other hand, don’t Albertans get royalty checks from their oil revenues? Hmmm, I would say that would amounts to a handout. Albertans also believe that the oil under their soil is their entitlement; perhaps it is. Moreover, I am quite certain that Albertans are the last Canadians to believe they are entitled to anything.
So, while this asshole pundit goes around spewing his hypocritical hate rant, and at the same time attacks someone with principles and convictions like Garth; what I might suggest he do is substantiate his facts. Failing to do so might actually inadvertently contribute to the reputation his province has for being xenophobically ignorant and always pointing fingers at others under the guise of things like the NEP of 30 years ago, for their own faults and shortcomings.
Do some homework Daryn. The resources belong to the provinces.
Albertans pay out over four times as much per capita as Ontarians for equalization.
I see one of the liberals has finally found enough honesty, or is it stupidity, to start bragging about how much money they will be handing out to the eastern voters from this ‘revenue neutral’ program.
I was wrong, it wasn’t a Green Shaft, it is a Red Shaft.
Screw you guys and your crooked scams.
I hope you actually try this, because my money is on Alberta leaving.
Hmmm…
Higher gasoline prices prices appear to be a key driver in reducing carbon output because it reduces use of cars.
It follows, then, that putting a tax on gasoline would actually be the eco-friendly path to take. On the claim. by the Liberals, that gasoline is already taxed that’s a bit of a red herring. Governments routinely adjust taxes to try and promote social goals so there’s nothing to prevent an increase in gas taxes on an environemental basis. It’d be a hard sell politically and I’d imagine that’s the real issue.
On the issue of the Green Shift having an impact on the Shell refinery I don’t imagine we’ll ever know. Having said that I’d imagine most companies take a pretty long-term view when deciding where to spend many millions of dollars.
The issue is probably whether or not Shell, and others, see the Liberals as a positive or negative influence on their business.
Stan,
I dont think I mention anything about green shift or other policies. where did that come from, I was talking about Werner Patals blog……Oh I get it, I suppose Im guilty by association of some kind?
Okay….in that case; so, you think Alberta will leave? Or you hope Alberta will leave? May I ask why? Is it to protect Alberta’s birth right? And if so, tell what that might birth right or entitlement might be?
Okay Im jusssssssssst joking!…..hahaha
Look, Everyone knows that Albertans pay. However, the scum bag above “Werner Patals” paints Ontarians as a bunch of welfare bums who steal from everyone else; which I will never ever fucking accept. If one hates Ontario, fine, I don’t care. But I humbly suggest that one hates it for what it really is, not what one has been brainwashed into believing.
The truth is,Ontario pays too and we have been paying the longest.
By the way, I noticed this comment:
“I hope you actually try this, because my money is on Alberta leaving.”
Try what? Are we on the same page here. Ummmm, did you mean the liberal green shift….oh right….okay.
Well, I think this country doesn’t work by obiding by ultimates. If we in Ontario vote liberal and do this or that, Alberta will leave, or Quebec will leave. Screw that attitude! I’m voting my heart and if I cant do that, then this isnt a democracy, and I want nothing to do with it.
Imagine if Alberta did leave? Wow. No challenge to Conservative thinking. hmmmm.
Daryn. Why do I hope Alberta will leave?
Because this vote buying scam by the liberals is just the latest in a long line of scams by the liberals and the easterners to screw the West to buy votes with in the east.
It’s not just the liberals even, Mulroney also did it.
NEP, the liberal plan to impose Kyoto on Alberta but not on Ontario’s auto industry, the F18 maintenance contract, the whole BS about Alberta being a threat to universal health care while Quebec actually had private health care.
The list goes on and on and on.
The liberal senator Kieth Davies and liberal cabinet minister Marc Lalonde admitted the original NEP was designed to screw the west, in fact that is the very word Davies used.
I’m sick of the liberals screwing the West and the idiot liberals in the east voting for them.
So go ahead, try this latest scam, it’s clearly not about the environment, it’s a scheme to take money from the non liberal voting West and buy votes in the dumb and corrupt east.
The liberals know they can count on the gullibility of the eastern voters to believe their lies or corrupt enough to go for the loot they will get from the West.
No one ever accused the liberals of being dumb, but they are sleazy and corrupt.
That’s why they are planning on doing it, they figure they can gamble with the very existence of Canada and get away with it.
I hope they try it.
Had to resort to censorship because you couldn’t explain why if the Shaft was good for the West it wouldn’t also be good for the east?
Deleting a few posts was the easy way out was it?
That whole gas/diesel thing is a bit of a sticky wicket as well I see.
Odd how a special communications adviser can’t answer these simple questions.
Oh well, we both know that if you have to resort to censoring me, it means I WAS right about the whole liberal Screw The West thing.
Thanks for playing.
Delete your posts? Hardly. You’ve been here what? – five or six times today? – to say exactly the same thing? Try that at http://www.conservative.ca. — Garth