Updated, 11 August 1:45 pm EST: In the south end of Halifax, just up from the rotary where poor drivers from Ontario get befuddled, the Herring Cove Road peels off on its way to Peggy’s Cove. Two streets in, is Jon Coates’ house.
It’s a decent neighbourhood, just blocks away from Halifax’s millionaires row, on the high ground overlooking the water and the basin where yachts bob at their moorings. And it’s from here that a letter emanated which is being gleefully emailed to bits by those who oppose the notion of putting a price on the carbon which society is pumping into the air.
Written by Mr. Coates, 67, who calls himself “an amateur curmudgeon,” the letter says this senior who lives on one income, “consisting of CPP and Old Age Security” is stinking mad at Stephane Dion because he calculates the Green Shift, fully implemented after four years, would cost him $416 a year, while his tax reduction would be just $10 a year.
Most of his carbon emissions, he says (he went online and used a carbon calculator), come from electricity, and he can’t cut his consumption further because, “I have already improved insulation in my walls and replaced my windows and doors, use the new ‘twirly’ lights and ensured my appliances are all Energy Star products.”
Mr. Coates says about this situation, facing increased costs, no income gain and a new tax from Dion: “Revenue neutral? In a pig’s eye! This is a tax on seniors living on fixed incomes. Well, Mr. Dion, you haven’t got a snowball’s chance in hell of ever getting my vote. I hope everyone else takes five minutes to run the same calculations I did and vote to send this joker to the political bone yard.”
I was highly suspicious of the letter when I received it for the umpteenth time, for several reasons. If he does have an income consisting only of government benefits, where did the money come from to retrofit an entire house with new insulation, windows and doors? How about those new energy-efficient appliances? How could his energy costs increase by 25% under the Green Shift, while his income tax load stayed the same? And the “Tax Poem” that’s attached to his letter is nothing more than a crude knockoff of a US chain letter, which is factually wrong. Moreover, calculations of the impact of the carbon tax also being circulated with his email are simply incorrect.
This had all the markings of a PMO disinformation initiative, and I concluded that, especially so after I called Mr. Coates Sunday and his wife answered, putting to bed the assertion he lives on one income.
But Mr. Coates and I did connect on Monday morning, and we wagged for a long time. Actually, I like the guy, and he had one excellent suggestion for the heavy breathers in the OLO, which I have passed on.
Jon Coates is a well-educated man, with degrees in accounting, economics, history and political science. He worked as a computer salesman until a heart attack laid him low 20 years ago, shortly after he’d moved into a Halifax condo townhouse which was intended to be a temporary residence. He’s still there, and because he and his wife and his disabled brother-in-law are all on government benefits, he watches every penny and keeps computer records of household expenditures. Also, because this is a low-income household, he’s become very alarmed at the potential increased living costs a carbon tax might bring.
And why not? The federal Conservative Party has spent millions of dollar trying to scare people like Jon Coates, with web sites, ads, mailbox flyers and radio ads telling seniors they will face a “permanent tax on everything” if the Dion plan goes through, with no mention made of corresponding tax cuts. And the prime minister of Canada has gone on television, saying the Green Shift “will screw everybody.” So, why would Jon Coates not be alarmed, concerned and – because he’s smart and motivated – not become an activist trying to stop this Liberal madness?
He calculated his energy footprint, and his greenhouse gas emissions, and wrote his letter ‘proving’ he, too, would be screwed. (He did not know exactly what his tax reduction would be under the Liberal plan, but estimated it at that $10 annually.) The wide distribution of that letter proves just how adroit he was in communicating this fear and concern. “I flop back and forth between being totally right wing,” he told me, “and totally left wing. I reckon I have voted for every party there is, but I’m not going to support any government that does this to seniors.”
Now, the facts.
Mr. Coates told me his meager income is $16,548 and his wife’s benefits are $15,060, for a household income of just over $31,600. That means under the Gren Shift plan, their income taxes will fall by $789.
As for the increased energy cost, the NS Power bill is estimated to rise in year four of the plan by no more than 5% (this is because only energy generation is subject to the tax, not transmission charges and related utility costs), which will increase the annual cost of his electric heat by just over $99. So, he will actually be better off by more than $600, not worse off by $400.
Why were Mr. Clates’ numbers wrong? Because he did not include his total household income in determining the tax cut. Because he did not use a tax calculator to get accurate numbers. Because he believed the Conservatives, and applied all of the carbon tax levied on his utility on to his own bill. Because he was convinced going into this exercise that the Dion Green Shift would constitute an added cost on all aspects of his life, even those – like electricity – he can do nothing about.
Do I blame him? Absolutely not. I admire him. He decided to do something about a situation he perceived was unjust. There are too few among us willing to do so.
It’s just a shame his prime minister lied to him.
Update: Being a politicial masochist, I asked Mr. Coates if he had anything to add after he read this blog. Guess what? — Garth
_______________________________________________
“Since you asked me what I thought of the coverage you provided in your blog, I offer the following:
First, the title of your article “Hoodwinked in Halifax”. If I was in danger of being hoodwinked, it was because the calculator your green shift website only puts up half of the story and neglects to provide a calculator to determine a household’s personal carbon footprint – and by inference, to calculate the net effect of this new tax proposal. You have mentioned that this oversight will be corrected – which is a good thing. I strongly suggest that you consider an algorythm which plugs in the emissions from the provincial power generation facilities. I noticed that a number of your commenters lauded the clean “Hydro” produced in Ontario. It might interest these selfsatisfied people to learn that Ontario’s power generation facilities are the largest single carbon emitters – ahead of the tarsands.
Second, your calculation based on my family’s income. I do not get a tax benefit, my wife and I would get a GIC payment of $700 per year based on the calculator and our incomes. Its interesting how the minds of people in government work: I have never been on welfare in my entire life, but the “improvements” to be wrought by the Green Shift tax will be offset by a welfare payment. You are, in effect, proposing a tax which will tax me on to the welfare rolls. The only offset I could find that applied to me when I wrote my piece was a 1.5% decrease in my income tax which amounts to $12. The idea of receiving what I consider to be a welfare payment for seniors did never even occured to me.
Third, no matter how you try to state it, my home is not located a couple of blocks from millionaire’s row. The south end of Halifax is on the Halifax penninsula and I am located well off the penninsula something like 5-6 km away from anything I would call millionaire’s row.
Fourth, you attemept to make a great deal of making my calculations based on one instead of two incomes. Consider the fact that I know a man who lives a few doors up from me who is 91 years old widower, living by himself on CPP and OAS who pays as much as I do for electricity and will in fact finish up worse off under this proposal. As I said, in two above, my family will finish up drawing what amounts to welfare under the Green Shift, something I have successfully managed to avoid for 67 years.
Fifth, the “tax poem” was not mine but apparently was added by someone in the email world. Certainly, I should not be held responsible for what gets added to what I originally wrote. It was not really fair comment to lay this addition on my doorstep.
Sixth, I have absolutely no way to prove I’m not a Conservative – until now, I had not really given much thought to the idea that a negative is hard to prove. It is true that my first cousin, Robert C. Coates, was a PC member of parliament for over 35 years, but I haven’t seen or spoken to the man since 1965. If that makes me a conservative, so be it. This claim, that I am a conservative, would certainly come as a surprise to the folks in my local NDP association because I was a poll captain for Alexa McDonagh two elections ago. I worked for her at the time because I believed she was the best candidate being offered in my riding. Even that connection has been severed because I believe her position, and the position of the dunderhead who heads the NDP, on Afghanistan is so patently wrongheaded. You simply don’t negotiate from a position of weakness. To withdraw and then try to start to negotiate is a stupid position offering no incentives for the Taliban to talk. I also don’t believe you can support the troops and not support the mission – that is a weasely way of doing business because the soldiers supposedly being supported are betting their lives on the completion of the mission.
Seventh, you made a very bad misstep. You do not invite an interview and then publish your “story” based on your suppositions before you took the trouble to burden yourself with the facts. Furthermore, when we did talk, you did not take the trouble to mention that your had already printed this distorted view – and was on the web as we spoke. If I had not been a curious person and asked for you web site address, I still might not know what you had said, and done.
Eight, I am a highly opinionated person. Usually I think about a subject, research it and then write. These are habits I developed as a student. I am a frequent writer of letters to the editor, a fact mentioned by some of your commentators. Since I have frequently attacked bad ideas put forward by all political parties and by the federal and provincial governments over the past 15 or so years, these people could probably have drawn any conclusion about my political sympathies they chose to see by not looking at my critiques in their entirety. Not my problem and not something I lose any sleep over. I think the rampant partisan politics pervading Nova Scotia is a bad thing and with luck, we will eventually see partisanship die off.
Finally, I find that being the subject of your blog was an interesting experience. It might interest you to know that my letter began as a letter to the editor of the Halifax Herald and published on 11 July 2008. I copied in a friend of mine in Dartmouth who happens to believe that the trouble with politics is the existance of political parties – all political parties. He asked me if he could mail it out and I gave him my permission. What happened after that is beyond my wildest imaginings. This shows the power of the Internet and of an idea.
Contrary to your closing paragraph, I was not misled by Mr. Harper, I’ve never met the man and seldom watch ads on TV. What I did was to offer my opinions about what I consider to be a tax which I have serious doubts will do much to reduce carbon emissions. I happen to believe that on an individual level, carbon emissions can be reduced by taking care of my own little corner of the world. I was surprised to discover that my family’s carbon emissions were considerably less than those of my fellow Canadians, half of what the average American produces and on a par with the emissions created by the average citizen of the UK.
In concluding, I think that I should offer you some heartfelt advice: Don’t publish things you haven’t taken the trouble to substantiate. Substantiate means that you are prepared to stand under and prove what you say. Your first cut in this blog segment verged on fiction and for a prickely person, might be actionable. I would judge your first version by using the words of my old grade two teacher, “you blotted your copy book”. Your latest version is better but leaves much to be desired. Thank you for this interesting experience – it was educational – but it was hardly what I would consider journalism.
Jon Coates – 70 Ridgevalley Rd. – Halifax, N.S. – B3P 2J9 – Tel (902) 477-6684 – Email jcoates@hfx.eastlink.ca.”
232 comments ↓
Did the missus confirm that a Jon Coates actually wrote the letter, or did she not know? Whose riding is it?
“I also surmised that money isn’t actually all that tight at 70 Ridgevalley Dr. ”
What’s that suppose to mean?
That there is room for Dion to pick Mr.Coates pockets?
Are you and Mr. Dion truly Liberal party members, cuz’ you sound more and more like NDP to me.
Sick the press on this guy, cameras, big lights, lots of sound equipment, coffees and doughnuts for everyone and open line to the Conservative Tree House (situation room) to ask what they know.
I love it.
If his wife knows what this is all about, and he actually did write that piece, she must be having a chuckle right now…
If his wife knows what this is all about, and he actually did write that piece, she must be having a chuckle right now…
By Straittohell on 08.10.08 10:09 pm
I defer entirely to Charles Oxley on this one.
“Nothing, I just lie there.”
Well done. I saw his letter and a couple of others too.
New politics? In this country maybe but don’t we have a great example of lies from our friends just below the belt, sorry, border?
It’s time to call this nonsense out and pick it apart.
Another fine example of the Harpo Clown Parties’ bag of lies and schemes to smear or kill the political messenger that dares to expose their CRAPPY nastiness!
The CON Carbon plan will break those on fixed income and drive even more people to the streets-just COMPARE them?
Thanks Garth for making the effort to call Mr. Coates.
He needs to be disavowed of the misinformation he’s being spoon fed by Oily and his co-horts in the situation room.
I hope when you call him back you will point him to the government website indicating that “Turning the Corner” plan which will serve to decimate the Atlantic provinces with no hope for seniors (even the ones with new windows and appliances).
Surely Mr. Coates must remember that the Conservatives who would goad him into despising the green shift are the very ones who voted against the budgetary measures which restored the CPP to viability (on the backs of thirty year olds like me) and who voted against the largest single OAS and GIS increase in history in 2005.
Whatever Mr. Coates pretends to lose as a result of a carbon tax is a mere pittance compared to what the Conservatives have already tried to take from him in recent memory.
Garth,
Nice article Garth, seems like you found a new streak of optimism. If you do get call from Mr. Coates, please let us know how the rest of the story goes.
Daryn
P.S.
Careful with phrases like this:
“Or what if the PMO has him locked up somewhere?”
Harper may sue you.
“Nothing, I just lie there.” — PYOTR, 10:18 pm
Damn you’re good. Sexy 2, so wanna cum bak 2 my place?!
*******************************************
“. . . the PMO has him locked up . . . Where did they come from? . . . You’ve been had.”
Bingo! Another case of CRAP royally shooting itself in the foot. I’m surprised they’re still shooting, as it should be a clear-cut case of Death By Stupidity.
If at all possible, Esther + volunteers can collect all these gems of wisdom from CRAP screw-ups, have copies made for all Lib. MPs so when the election is called, show voters what CRAP has done and then tell them what the Libs. offer.
If CRAP didn’t have so many of these religious right-wing looneybins running the show, I would stick with the Greens, or go with Rope’s “None Of The Above”.
There is only going to be one shot at wiping this garbage up for good, so wait a little longer — let them wet their collective pants, then bring them down.
Be effective at getting the message of The Green Shift plan out — folk will have a better outlook of all changes necessary. Tons of good PR work to be done.
After that, start re-working the economy for a better now. Never mind tomorrow — here and now is where it’s at.
What a crock! I hope the press go knocking on his door and make the public aware.A typical example of the bumbling tories trying to make a point thru lies and corruption.A new national holiday should be declared the day we get rid of this bunch of incompetent,bumbling,corrupt idiots!
Garth;
Saw this today and it made me think of you, especially the generously angry bit! :
Orwell wrote of what he saw in Dickens:
‘He is laughing, with a touch of anger in his laughter, but no triumph, no malignity. It is the face of a man who is always fighting against something, but who fights in the open and is not frightened, the face of a man who is generously angry — in other words, of a nineteenth-century liberal, a free intelligence, a type hated with equal hatred by all the smelly little orthodoxies which are now contending for our souls.’
Garth Turner, the Charles Dickens of the Canadian blogosphere!
“And, by comparison, if Mr. Coates comes to live under the Conservative plan, he will be paying about the same extra for electricity, and have a zero tax reduction.”
Mr.Turner I have no Idea if this person does exist or not. This is not the point of my post. The problem that I have with all you people on the left is this:
You constantly keep saying that under the conservative plan they will not have any income tax reduction. First we are not in an election campaign here yet. So why would the Conservatives bring their platform out now? We all know the reason why Mr.Dion started is campaign in trying to sell his so called “The Green Shift” plan. So that he can improve his poll numbers. Well that didn’t work did it?
He is still stuck at the same place he was just before he went on his tour.If you think Mr.Turner that when the election is called,the Conservatives will not promise more tax cuts in their election campaign then you’re really are dreaming.
You’re a politician you should know that you don’t bring out a major piece of your platform out months in advance before an election starts. You just give your enemy time to adjust. It is much different when it comes out during an election when you only have just about 30 days give or take a couple. You would then have a lot less time to adjust.
Perhaps Mr. Coates is on a “fixed” monthly incomes from government pensions. Perhaps what he neglects to mention are the sizeable investments that he can use to augment his “fixed” income.
Seniors who are truly on a fixed CPP and OAS have probably sold their home and moved into an affordable rental.
And they are lauding Mr. Dion’s $600. supplement.
Better check the basement .
Thought I heard something down there .
Thanks for the sleuthing Garth. Much appreciated.
Alright . MSM should park on this guys doorstep .
Ask him to take a lie detector test .
Have someone use the ‘Greenshift’ calculator using his numbers .
This is such a crock of shit I am almost speechless .
Come on Coates be a man .
Paid shill .
“I also surmised that money isn’t actually all that tight at 70 Ridgevalley Dr. ”
What’s that suppose to mean?
That there is room for Dion to pick Mr.Coates pockets?
Are you and Mr. Dion truly Liberal party members, cuz’ you sound more and more like NDP to me.
By Solitario on 08.10.08 9:51 pm
Your tin-foil helmet is on too tight .
This is a really interesting post.
Advertisers/marketers have been doing this sort of thing for a while. Quoting lines from a letter that a consumer never wrote in order to extol the virtues of a particular product.
Letter to editor? Haven’t print media been caught fabricating letters?
Ignoring the ‘math’ for a moment, I would like to know if he really did write the letter or if his name was used?? You have piqued my curiosity Sir.
What stinks the most about this story is the fact that pensioners, who tend to have lower incomes, are one demographic who stand to gain the most out of the green shift taxation plan. And rightly so, it’s about time that we had a government that respects the contributions that our seniors have made to Canada and takes steps to help them maintain their dignity in their twilight years by easing their tax burden.
However, should the elusive “Mr. Coates” actually be earning only $12, 000 a year he would have a point as he would be paying hardly any income tax (excuse my ignorance on exact figures) because the majority of his income would be sheltered by the current personal exemption. He would be paying no (or almost no) income tax to reduce yet his consumption taxes would increase.
I’m all for “shifting” towards a taxation system that focuses on consumption and keeps it’s hands off the money that I earn before I’ve even seen it. That said, there are some flies in the ointment.
Stephane Dion’s going to stand up in a packed hall in 50%/50% territory to answer to the people. Would Steve do that or would he just send out a mailer that assumes we’re all idiots?
Really how dumb do CONS think the voter is? Can’t they at least come up with credible lies for once?
Yep, that’s the strategy. “Lie through your teeth because it’ll never reach the media”. Leverage email forwarding chains to get your message across, no matter how wrong or odious.
Welcome to conservative online politics. The Republicans are doing it to Obama in America, calling him everything from a secret Muslim to a secret Communist within the safety of “RE:RE:RE:CHECK THIS OUT”, and now Harper’s doing it to you.
Good luck.
Sounds like one of those “not illegal, who cares about ethics” schemes the children at conservative.ca likes to come up with. Write a fake letter, get it chain mailed and blogged about, and let the word spread. A fitting tactic for this ‘win at any cost’(to the environment, to the budget, …etc) government Harper is running.
Well that’s embarrassing.
Good question: did he really write the letter? I’d confirm that before I did anything else.
Re: the surplus/deficit. In my little world, I have a bank account with x number of dollars in it. That is my surplus. If I spend all of it and then take on debt, I have a deficit.
Was our 14B in a bank account? Plus, if we have a 500B debt, we do not have a surplus because we owe money. It is unfortunate that our deficit/surplus figures are only one way of reporting the situation: creative accounting and reporting.
The deficit which was just reported; was it for the two months in isolation? One thing I learned when I was a planner in the retail business was this: a loss of sales or profit was a loss against plan and not against the total dollars. For example, a 10k loss meant that we earned a profit which was 10k less than what we had planned and it did NOT mean that we were 10k in the hole. It meant that we earned 50k instead of the 60k which was planned.
The deficit which was reported: does it mean that the government spent the entire surplus and reduced the balance in the bank to zero and then, on top of it, went x number of dollars in the hole?
I would like to know what the deficit means, exactly, before I judge the government on its fiscal prudence.
I would like to point out that our debt is comprised of many elements, one of which is comprised of the debt to holders of Canada Savings Bonds. For example, if I have a bond for 100 and it will mature with a value of 150, the government has a debt to me of 150. I have oversimplified, but it shows one element of the government’s debt load.
As for Mr. Coates, his letter may be a crank letter but there may be some valid points in the content. I am one-quarter the way through a detailed examination of the green shift plan and I have already come up with some questions. However, I will read the entire document before I jump to any conclusions or criticize it. I would rather take my time, put in some brain sweat and then (and only then) speak to the plan.
Well done again Garth! Stick the facts and call out these lies and inaccuracies. As the election looms closer we can expect more of this kind of action from neoCon bobbleheads… spreading misinformation and outright lies.
Why not start a web site where each of these things can be challenged and documented on a factual basis. And, let’s take it one step further – why not trace individual addresses down etc. take some pictures and reveal the ‘truth’. Chances are your little rodent friend may be behind some of this nonsense.
“And, by comparison, if Mr. Coates comes to live under the Conservative plan, he will be paying about the same extra for electricity, and have a zero tax reduction.”
This is the key sound bite in this whole discussion—the Conservative Plan—where is it & what will it cost you—how much do they offer in tax savings to offset the ensuing increased cost of electricity & the like.
The answer to that is as illusive as the Ontario Sasquatch .
Mr Harper does have a carbon tax plan , albeit not a very good one—a plan that will result in increased costs to consumers but without the Dion tax relief.
Another hidden plan from your “new” Conservative government.
Taxing income trusts kind of comes to mind.
Dr Mike Popovich–former life-long Progressive Conservative.
If any person cares to read about the History of Canada they will soon find out the South End of Halifax, these people had the best of everything and I mean the best. Even to-day should you win the lotto chances are you would not get invited to the fancy ball. Are their good people living there YES! are they poor NO! are they political you betcha!
New politics? Is this what it has come to? Good Lord, I hope not. More to the point, I should hope that you, Garth, would not join into this percieved new way.
Your blog topic today I find disturbing, coming from an MP. There is so much speculation presented as near fact I am not sure where to start.
I don’t know this Jon Coates. However, I presume, since you found an address and phone number for him, he likely exists.
The woman how answered the phone, you presume (your words) is his wife. How about daughter, sister, visiting cousin, neighbour dog-watching? Even if she is his wife, and assuming she is on pension, would that not still mean a fixed income?
The impression you leave your readers that his home and his income is more than modest is pure speculation. Ridge Valley road in Halifix is the location of a set of condominium row-houses, average 3brm/1200 sq.ft. As a condo, the doors and windows may very well have been replaced by the condo itself.
I could go on.
The only likely truth you have in your post is the fact that while Coates claims his cost will go up by 25%, the Liberal projection for average use is 5%. Obviously some clarity is needed. It is possible that Coates is wrong in his assessment. Yet even that, until proper research is done, is speculation.
Why post this blog topic?
If this is indeed the new politics, why join in?
Why, for that matter, doesn’t the Liberals offer a reasonable means for people to vet their cost?
Why?
Taxing income trusts kind of comes to mind.
Dr Mike Popovich–former life-long Progressive Conservative.
By Dr Mike from Rodney on 08.11.08 6:18 am
KIND OF? REVENGE FOR THAT BETRAYAL GETS ME SWINGING OUT OF BED IN THE MORNING … SMILING … BITTERLY … THINKING OF WAYS … TO DO THEM!
Some ruminations about the rhetoric surrounding the green shift. It was either in the body of the blog or in somebody’s comment that I read the words “massive income tax cut”. I will acknowledge that $15B is, indeed, a massive amount of money. On an individual basis, however, it is not massive; but that’s just my own opinion about my own situation.
Now, if the shift is revenue neutral that would mean to me that both sides of the equation are equal. That is, $15B in income tax cuts equals $15B in taxes collected from the other side of the equation. Therefore, the “massive” decrease in income taxes collected is offset by an equally “massive” amount of taxes collected from another avenue. So, the two “massives” cancel each other and, therefore, we cannot say one side is massive without acknowledging that the other side of the equation is equally massive.
Now, as for the calculation of the income tax reduction, on the Liberal site, I did not see a calculator to estimate the other side of the equation. I’d like to see the calculator for the other side: equality, both sides of the equation.
That led me to comment on something else which I have not seen mentioned in any specific terms: the cost of the shifted tax.
For one thing, taxing natural gas on home heating and water heating is, in my view, not fair. Canada is a cold country in the winter and heating our homes is a necessity and not something we want.
But, in addition to this direct cost of the shift, there are many other indirect costs and here are two examples: when I go to the grocery store, during the winter months, it will be heated with (most likely) natural gas. The store will pass on this cost to the consumer. When I go for my monthly treat of a restaurant meal (usually Wendy’s), the restaurant will not only be heating with natural gas but also cooking with it. The tax on that consumption will be passed on to the consumer.
Plus, given that we individual tax payers cannot come close to documenting the amount of shifted tax we would be paying, I am not confident that it will be revenue neutral for individual taxpayers. I also doubt that too many businesses will pass on the benefit of lower business taxes to the consumer.
I believe that we should do something about our environment but I am not confident that this is the way to go. I would prefer to see such changes as: making freight trains more viable as a method of transporting goods across the country; in this way, we will save a bundle on tires, asphalt, diesel, motor oil, etc. Imagine the carbon footprint resulting from resurfacing our highways more often as a result of all those semi-trailers rolling down the highways.
Bottled water is another fine example of uneccessary footprinting. The water, I am assuming, is sterilised by boiling (natural gas, most likely) and bottled in plastic which is a horribly destructive material and then transported by semi-trailers to depots from which other trucks take the product to the stores which sell the bottled water.
We are polluting our waterways like there’s no tomorrow. To counteract the pollution in our water, we add more and more chemicals to our drinking water to make it safe. Then, those chemicals go into our sewer systems and further exacerbate the problem.
Canada’s pollution issue is much more than global warming and, to be honest, given our small percentage contribution to the planet’s pollution, we should devote our energies and resources to other greater pollution problems.
We have housing developments eliminating huge tracts of land; trees are destroyed to make way for the new housing developments and not only do we kill off a lot of wildlife, but we also remove the most natural and effective air cleaners; namely, trees.
I think that the concept of the green shift aim of cleaning up the air is a good one and one which is way past due. The methodology, however, is starting to lose its appeal to me in light of its complexity and vagueness. For example, the cost per tonne of carbon means nothing to me in terms of what it will cost me. I’d like to have that figure translated into the percentage of tax I will have to pay on what I burn. I do not have the formula nor the know-how to convert a per-tonne charge into terms which are meaningful to me.
Anyhow, that’s my take on it.
and now Harper’s doing it to you.
Good luck.
By Demosthenes on 08.11.08 2:18 am
I’ll keep an eye out for that!
From the Green Shift Plan, available as a download from the Liberal web site.
“We will cut the lowest income tax rate to 13.5 per cent from 15 per cent, a 10 per cent reduction. And we will cut the middle class tax rates to 21 per cent from 22 per cent and to 25 per cent from 26 per cent , a five per cent and four per cent reduction respectively”.
Okay, now I know what was bothering me about the income tax reduction. “we will cut the lowest income tax rate to 13.5% from 15%, a 10% reduction”. Okay, this is true but it is not quite what it appears to be. The reduction of the rate is 10% but the reduction of the income tax paid on taxable income is 1.5% and NOT 10%. 15% minus 13.5% equals 1.5%. 1.5 divided by 15 equals 0.10 or 10%. Yes, the rate, itself, has been reduced by 10% but the result of the application of the new rate is only 1.5%. For example, if I earn $100 and I apply the 15% tax rate, I will pay $15 on that income. If I earn $100 and I apply the 13.5% tax rate, I will pay $13.50 on that income. The difference is $1.50. Divide $1.50 by $100 and the result is 0.015 or 1.5%. So, the reduction in tax PAID is not 10%. The difference in the RATE applied to income is 10%.
They are not one and the same. One is a reduction in tax paid after application of the rate and the other is the change in the rate which is to be applied.
The same principle applies to the middle-class rates: the reduction in the amount of tax paid will be 1% and not 5% and 4%, respectively.
What is stated in the above quote from the plan is 100% truthful. It is just not the whole story. And people wonder why I am a sceptic.
“Mr.Turner I have no Idea if this person does exist or not. This is not the point of my post. The problem that I have with all you people on the left is this:”
By The Right on 08.10.08 11:32 pm
You will forgive me but defining people as left and right in Canadian politics require a wee bit more than “you people on the left”. For example, are you suggesting the CPC are on the right and the Liberals on the left?
If you are, then I think I may have a problem with that. The Liberals while left on some issues such as social issues, could hardly be called left on fiscal issues. In fact, I would go as far to say the CPC are more left on fiscal affairs than the Liberals, the last budget than contained the highest spending in the history of Canada could be used as an example. So maybe you would like to confine your observations to CPC and Liberal and forget about the right and the left…they only exist in the mind of the person writing the post.
Maybe you could tell us who “you people” are and we could better understand your viewpoint.
By eastofeden on 08.11.08 8:11 am
We hear you very clearly. The PMSH clones are claiming they’re effective at stating a so-called ‘fact’ and then walking smugly away from it.
When they made the first 1% cut to the GST (from 7 to 6%) they were claiming it would save a family of four with a gross income of $60K, at least $400. A sharp Sun Media journalist took them to task immediately.
He asked where this fictional family would find $40,000 of disposable income (which would attract GST) after household expenses.
I read that journalist’s contributions faithfully … He implied they looked a little ’sheepish’ but were not at all embarrassed.
45 of 60 days rain in the Hamilton area with floods never seen before, National news reporting this is the wettest soggy summer on record….perhaps it is time to sit down with some serious talks on Climate Change, not jump on the Harper and CTV supported negative chatter, just look at Beijing and you will see what people can do when they rise to the task rather then talk in negative CON terms….
EDITORIAL—Clarify Canada’s defence plans
Saturday, Aug 10, 2008
http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/475134
PEEDER … PEEDER … PEEDER
Go get a coffee for Condi
Tim’s—is on your GPS (the only thing)
Hmmmm…..I wonder if sleuth Janke will get on this one – don’t hold your breath.
Perhaps this guy is a financially comfortable friend of the MacKay family…well, you never know.
By TS on 08.11.08 5:58 am
We really do need something here in Canada. The US has a site called FactCheck which checks out all the facts that politicians claim and another site called MediaMatters which challenge the media about what they lead you to believe, what facts are missing in a story, etc.
You are right – we really do need something like this in Canada – it’s time. Enough of the media and CON BS.
And people wonder why I am a sceptic.
By eastofeden on 08.11.08 8:11 am
Me too, and I have been since I watched Rosanna Rosanna Danna on SNL arguing with Jane Curtin over ‘violins on tv.’
After Rosanna finished her spiel, Jane reminded her the word was ‘violence’ not ‘violins.’ I thought Jane was cruel by attempting to undercut Rosanna Rosanna Danna that way.
Taxing income trusts kind of comes to mind.
Dr Mike Popovich–former life-long Progressive Conservative.
By Dr Mike from Rodney on 08.11.08 6:18 am
KIND OF? REVENGE FOR THAT BETRAYAL GETS ME SWINGING OUT OF BED IN THE MORNING … SMILING … BITTERLY … THINKING OF WAYS … TO DO THEM!
BY PYOTR PETROBITCH ON 08.11.08 7:35 AM
PYOTR
Why yes it does actually.
Besides , I love the smell of fear in the morning.
Also , I keep checking this blog to see if Harry has published the contents of the 18 pages of blacked-out documents from Flaherty`s trusts tax leakage proof.
How about it Harry.
We are waiting to be enlightened.
Dr Mike Popovich–A “used-to-be Conservative for 35 years.
The “X” List:
The Next Big Failures (Transcript Part I)
Martin Weiss, Ph.D. MONEY MARKETS 08-11-08
“The Dow’s rally last week may inject a temporary feel-good palliative into the hearts and minds of some investors. But it does nothing to remedy the massive bank losses and acute credit shortages that are strangling the U.S. economy.
So if you’re interpreting the rally as an “all-clear” signal to jump back into business as usual, I think you could be making a grave error.
Instead, whether it lasts a while longer or not, I think the rally is merely giving smart investors like you the opportunity to get a better price for many of your stocks, reduce your exposure and find safer havens for your money.”
Oh, man. Rosanne Rosannadana. I loved SNL back then. I remember that one vividly. The show has sure gone downhill since then.
Pyotr, when a politician or a political party states anything (regardless of the party), I divided it by half and then discard 90%. Usually, I’m left with nothing. Any statement, any publication, any promise, any fact: I dissect it because sure as shootin’, I’m seeing only spin. All parties spin: Libs, Cons, Dippers, Greenies…in fact, the only party that ever came close to being fully forthcoming was the Rhino party. And, fools that we are, we didn’t vote for the Rhino party.
Mr Garth TurnerMp, FYI, Toronto today,
Free public meetings.
If your in Toronto today, there are free public meetings to get the newest science facts about the effects drinking fluoridated water has on the whole human body. I was at the UofT world conferance on the effects drinking
fluoridated water has on the whole body.
Now that I know, I think it is truly an ‘insane’ thing to be doing.
I hope the PRESS covers it, I also hope that Medical Doctors, public health people, dentist, and anyone interested in there families health go to find out for them selfs.
I was also told that the newest science stuff covered at the conferance last week would be included in this web site. It also has info. on the free public meetings todays in down town Toronto at 2 & 7.
(25 Cecil Street.)
http://fluoridealert.org/august.11.html
I think there is also a news conferance at queens park at 2pm? (FYI)
Martin Weiss, Ph.D. MONEY MARKETS 08-11-08
PUT THE DAMNED URL UP EARL
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/Issues.aspx?NewsletterEntryId=2071
By slg on 08.11.08 9:13 am
This past weekend I spent some time “googling” Canadian budgets from 1993 to today. I wanted to do some research into military spending (since all I hear lately is how the Liberals “gutted” the military) and I wanted to check out the figures for myself, because I suspect they are lies just like the statements that the Liberals are “tax and spend” when they DID reduce federal income taxes several times throughout the JC/PM years. However, I couldn’t find anything.
I agree – a non-partisan site with some info would be great.
By PYOTR PETROBITCH on 08.11.08 8:55 am
Sad to say, Pyotr, but having taken several statistics courses in university, I learned one thing very well: numbers can be manipulted every which way from Sunday to say what we want. The $400 savings can be shown to be probably true (we can never show anything to be absolutely true but we can show something to be false) by manipulating the numbers and throwing in all sorts of factors.
Ever notice that sometimes our inflation figures do not take into account this factor or that factor? For example, I have heard, on occasion, our inflation figures stated without including the cost of energy. Well, duh. If the cost of gas, gasoline or electricity increases by 20% but we leave that out of the equation, of course our inflation rate will look low.
As I say, if it comes from the government, a politician, or a political party, I divide by half and then discard 90%. I don’t take anything from any political party at face value. Far too often, I’ve discovered manipulation of perceptions and figures and a whole lot of shading and evasion. Sometimes I wish we had a monarchy with a dictator. Then, I could either love or hate the dictator but I’d at least not have to analyze and look for the whole story each and every time.
Our whole political system is out of control.
By eastofeden on 08.11.08 9:25 am
I think of Gilda Radner often. Such comic abilities very often arise from deep emotional pain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd_syuD-N_k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HOMtOzoVM8
…along with Red Skelton’s Junior the Mean Widdle Kid (who was famous for his expression, “I Dood It”), country boy
Clem Kadiddlehopper, Sheriff Deadeye, boxer Cauliflower McPugg, drunkard Willy Lump-Lump, and con man San Fernando Red.
On bottled water:
http://healthzone.ca/health/article/475146
Mr. Turner, you and your fanclub—the turncoates—should spend your time explaining to Canadians how the Dion green plan is revenue neutral. We don`t care where Mr.Coates lives or whether he has any spare cash. So , stop being a bunch of Inspector Clouseau`s and tell us how this plan will be revenue-neutral. It was Dion that attached the revenue and taxation component to his plan—-Just explain to me what is revenue neutral about 2 seniors who live on $30,000 a year for both of them and therefore pay little tax and with Dion`s plan will pay an extra 600 to 900 per year in energy taxes. Sorry guys, much like your host, you`ve got a loser here.
Pyotr, you’re making me feel old. LOL. I remember watching the Red Skelton Show. Clem was one of my favourite characters. I also liked Jackie Gleason and Carol Burnett.
Pyotr. I hit the send button too soon. You were certainly right about Gilda and her personal angst. Most great comedians are fighting some sort of inner demon. I was greatly saddened when Gilda passed away. Oddly, I never found Jim Belushi to be at all humourous and yet he was so revered. John Candy, on the other hand, was one of the best.
An example of how an incorrect assumption can get the frenzied followers to foam at the mouth ready for the kill. Lets us see what the truth is when Garth updates this post.
Hmmmm…..I wonder if sleuth Janke will get on this one – don’t hold your breath.
Perhaps this guy is a financially comfortable friend of the MacKay family…well, you never know.
By TS on 08.11.08 5:58 am
Someone is using my nickname… I did not make this post.
First, my name is Jon Coates. I do, in fact, exist and have a life independent of the PMO. I’m about as apolitical as it is possible for an average Canadian to be, having voted for almost every political party over the years.
I found it very interesting that Garth would write a whole column about me before he took the trouble to talk to me. Imagine my surprise when I spoke to the man this morning and then, using the web address he provided me, discovered that he had written a column about me in which he stated that he thought I might not exist. This is not what I would call fair or informed reporting – more like gossip.
It’ll be interesting to see what sort of spin gets put on Mr. Turner’s follow up column now that he’s taken the trouble to burden himself with some of the facts I provided him.
If fairness prevailed, the Liberal Green Shift site would include a carbon calculator so people might get an idea of how much in increased costs they could expect. That would be full disclosure.
By the way, Cowie Hill, the place where I live was originally built as a low cost housing project – it is not on millionaire’s row in south end Halifax.
I did my calculations based on myself alone and not on the three people living in my house. Later I found the Green Shift site and ran the calcs using the three people in our household and we still come out worse off than we would be without this tax.
Contrary to Garth’s calculations, when you plan for old age, you spend a few years getting your affairs in order – this includes buying appliances which will hopefully last the rest of your life, replacing defective windows and doors and using twirley lights. That is not an indication of wealth, that’s an indication of careful and fearful planning.
Oh, by the way, our good long distance telephone plan is called Wintel: costs $7.95 per month plus 25cents per call.
Thanks, Jon. I will post a synopsis of our conversation shortly, and update it with the information you gave me. It was a pleasure speaking with you at length. — Garth
July housing starts down 14.8% from June….
http://finance.sympatico.msn.ca/investing/news/businessnews/article.aspx?cp-documentid=9247525
Tim N,
re defence budgets, the best I can link you to is a 2005 Polaris Institute Report that contains a couple of interesting charts. Chart 1 on page 4 shows defence spending back to 1980 and projects to 2009 –
http://www.ipb.org/Canada’s%20Alarming%20Rise%20in%20Military%20Spending.pdf
If you compare Chart 1 with Chart 2 on page 7, you will see that the LPC even managed to starve the US Forces during the decade of darkness! Too bad that facts can’t be allowed to interfere with good propaganda.
Garth.
Please bring this to the attention of Stephane and the party. Read the author’s credentials. Canada in Afghanistan-part of the problem.
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts08112008.html
Sadly, all parties engage in this kind of deception.
It’s one of the oldest tricks in the book, but not a very clever one in the information age, since it’s easy to track people down now. It usually backfires when someone calls them on it, as likely seen here.
Nothing new here…the CRAP wears many Coates to hide their nefarious deeds. The first casulty of War is TRUTH and the cons have been waging political war for so long that TRUTH is a stranger to them. I am surprised that they have any time left over for governing. Their motto appears to be: “why tell the truth when a lie will suffice?” That’s okay..nobody is perfect. Then again, Satan goes by the name,” Father of lies.” One ought to beware of the company one keeps.
Mr Turner should check his facts! Mr.Coates is for real & all renovations & NEW appliances were purchased before the gouvernment HANDOUT was qualified for. His residence does overlook Halifax, it is a condo but is not anywhere in the RITCY South End! I DARE Turner to havea public debate with Mr.Coates! The public willsoon learn how this public servant at the public trough checks his facts!
How do you know when he bought his appliances? — Garth
Are you censoring seniors now? DELETED
Nope, just you. — Garth
Looks like Dan Miles, Flahertys soon to be ex-mouthpiece got tired of spinning the unspinnable and unexplainable for the small man from Whitby.
Or maybe he is just one of the rats to sense the CON-ship is leaking all over the place and it has’nt even hit an iceberg yet.
Good riddance Dan!
Too funny. More malarkey from “The Gang That Couldn’t Shoot Straight ”
ROTFLMAO
With baited breath I wait .
Garth, you always refer to Harper as a bully. It looks like you’re the bully now. You are an MP who represents ALL the people, whether they are from your party or not. If you really thinked the Green Shift was a good plan, then defend the plan, don’t attack people – it makes you look small and desperate.
Mr. Coates decided on his own to be a email crusader against the Green Shift. I have been asked by many people to respond. And I shall. — Garth
Just another little link for your reading enjoyment on the in’s and outs of the idiot Finley
Doug Finley Escorted from Hearings
Looks like Dougie and the neo-Clowns are getting rattled. Finley showed up days early and tried to hijack the proceedings. If he’s this angry, they must be getting close to something BIG.
(I live in hope.)
“Parliamentary hearings into the Conservative in-and-out scheme got off to a raucous start Monday, with a top Tory being ejected after refusing to leave voluntarily.”
“Doug Finley, who ran the party’s 2006 election campaign, was escorted from the Commons ethics committee room by security guards after 20 minutes of wrangling between Tory MPs and Liberal committee chair Paul Szabo.”
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2008/08/11/6413706-cp.html
I wonder if those security guys were thinking, “It’s tiiiiime to take out the GARBAGE!”
Mr. Coates decided on his own to be a email crusader against the Green Shift. I have been asked by many people to respond. And I shall. — Garth
By Barb on 08.11.08 12:55 pm
Mr.Coates seems to be,awfully,defensive about his BS .
How is it so much mis-information made its way into his first email .Goblins?
For an adult he is certainly child-like in his response .
Blaming Garth for all of his mistakes .
I do not believe his numbers .
If his CPP is that low he qualifies for the GIS .
I can’t believe the “GreenShift” would deliberately target seniors or those on a fixed income .
By Herb on 08.11.08 11:05 am
The link you gave doesn’t work – but I did get to the main page – and will be reading. Thanks.
By AToryNoMore on 08.10.08 10:01 pm
By Joe T on 08.11.08 4:42 am
BY CALBERTA ON 08.10.08 10:34 PM
BY DEB PROTHERO ON 08.10.08 10:38 PM
BY JOHN ON 08.10.08 11:10 PMBY
JUDY ON 08.10.08 11:34 PM
BY MEN WITH HATS ON 08.11.08 12:07 AM
BY JOE T ON 08.11.08 4:42 AM
BY TS ON 08.11.08 5:58 AM
Well, all of you were jumping all over Mr. Coates and now, the blog is going to change. Garth, I notice that you have removed some critical comments you made about Mr. Coates, from your blog.
This is why I keep saying that I always want to know all sides before making any kind of judgements. Just because Mr. Coates doesn’t like the green shift plan seems to make him a target for all sorts of vituperative.
The last time I checked, Canada was a free country where all opinions are respected. On this blog, however, it seems that anybody who opposes the party line is castigated. Kind of like what happened to Garth when he was a Conservative.
So, this is contradictory. I see comments slamming the Conservatives for booting Garth from caucus and then the same people slam those who are not in full agreement with the party line.
Let’s try to be more equitable and treat others with full respect and not be ready to jump all over somebody just because he or she has a differing viewpoint.
Here is oneenior in Nova Scotia the will vote Liberal for the Green Shift. I too am on OAS and CCP but I believe that our existance is more important that a few $.
—-Just explain to me what is revenue neutral about 2 seniors who live on $30,000 a year for both of them and therefore pay little tax and with Dion`s plan will pay an extra 600 to 900 per year in energy taxes. Sorry guys, much like your host, you`ve got a loser here.
By William on 08.11.08 10:10 am
I am basically in the same boat as you are William, tell me how Harper’s plan is better? Same costs but no rebates?
I like Murray Dobbin. He reminds me of an old testament prophet, callin out from the mountaintop in a storm while the masses below rarely pause in their feedin’, fornicatin’ and fightin’ until the floodwaters are up to their ears.
Wars are expensive. We are in an economic crisis. Even if we could afford it, which we can’t, this is not what we want. All the lies are nicely summarized in the article below.
The militarisation of Canada – makes you want to weep, unless you build and sell weapons of mass destruction.
—–
Afghanistan Transforms Canada
To play junior partner to empire, we’ve militarized our identity.
By Murray Dobbin
“…Our role in the war is dominating our international reputation and integrating us into the U.S. and its imperial designs on Middle East oil. In order to justify this colonial occupation, Canada now spends so much of its (paltry) aid budget on Afghanistan (much of it finding its way into the pockets of corrupt officials) that there is barely any financing left over for other developing countries’ needs.”
“…[L]astly, the military’s role in Canadian politics and culture is being rapidly Americanized. Canadian military spokespersons now openly promote their war-fighting role and take part in cultural events, and the media (most notably the CBC) promotes this new expansive role.”
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/08/11/AfghanCan/
—–
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 12:33 pm
Hatboy, your comments expose you to be the asshole you most certainly are. suck it!
You know I think I may have a partial solution to the maelstrom that the ‘Greenshift’ has wrought .
Find some volunteers to put themselves under the Green Plan .I’ll go first .
Tell me how much to add to my energy
bill.I pay extra for wind generated electricity already .
Gas is subsidized by the Government in the coldest months .
Then we will have a working lab .
Then there are the In-Out shenanigans are blogged by Kady O’Malley
Liveblogging the Ethics Committee – Day 1, Part 1: Sharper than a serpent’s tooth it is to have a thankless defeated candidate
More hilarious underhanded undertakings by the Harpo Circus
Be sure to read the explainerizer to get a feel for why ‘IN-OUT’ will cause voters to want the CONs more OUT than IN.
Summer school for scandal – An ITQ refresher course on in-and-out (and why it matters)
This is not what I would call fair or informed reporting – more like gossip.
By Jon Coates on 08.11.08 10:47 am
Welcome to Garth.ca, where Garth shoots first and asks questions later. One only has to look at the Ujjal “blood on his hands” blog to see this is not the first time it has happened. Ralph Goodale should have also stepped down, when under investigation for the income trust leak, if you were to believe some of these blogs. He does not discriminate with his criticizms, just it depends on what side of the house he sits on when basing his criticisms.
As to the Green Shift calculator not showing what the costs of the Green Shift are, that is typical political spin. Politicians will only talk about how much they have saved you in money, they will hardly tell you what they cost you.
“And it’s from here that a letter emanated which is being gleefully emailed to bits by those who oppose the notion of putting a price on the carbon which society is pumping into the air.”
Hi Garth – Could you or someone provide a link so that I can read it. I was on vac. last week and basically out of the loo.
I am anxiously awaiting your update Garth. As you likely know, I have a vested interest.
Mr. Turner, you and your fanclub—the turncoates—should spend your time explaining to Canadians how the Dion green plan is revenue neutral.
By William on 08.11.08 10:10 am
Now theres a laugh. Callin’ Garth a turn coat.
Hey you blind jerk! how about the LIE that your “god” pulled off on our income trusts.
Now that defines the name “Turn Coat”
with what has happened it could be called “Treason” against the Canadian people!
Get your head out of your A–!
If fairness prevailed, the Liberal Green Shift site would include a carbon calculator so people might get an idea of how much in increased costs they could expect. That would be full disclosure.By Jon Coates on 08.11.08 10:47 am
Thanks Jon. Actually what I would like to see on the Green Shift site is a calculator to tell me how much GHG Emissions I will be saving. Isn’t that the purpose? But so far at least the Liberals are offering something, the Con plan is utterly without any substance.
Why would you invite me to a meeting in Oakville Ontario? My commenting on your blog was not to be construed as a solicitation for invitations to Liberal party functions. Had you read my comment you would have noticed that I am not on your side. I would suggest you unsubscribe me(cuz I ain’t gonna) from your mailing list. In the vernacular of the working man Garth… Peddle your SPAM bullshit elsewhere!
But we love you. Peace. — Garth
Mr. Coates told me his meager income is $16,548 and his wife’s benefits are $15,060, for a household income of just over $31,600. That means under the Gren Shift plan, their income taxes will fall by $789.
As for the increased energy cost, the NS Power bill is estimated to rise in year four of the plan by no more than 5% (this is because only energy generation is subject to the tax, not transmission charges and related utility costs), which will increase the annual cost of his electric heat by just over $99. So, he will actually be better off by more than $600, not worse off by $400.
For someone with an alleged degree in accounting he sure doesn’t seem too bright .Accountants gather all the facts and paper work before they even begin to come up with a solution . I know because my sister-in-law is a Canadian Master Accountant .
The highest designation for accountancy in Canada .
Her specialty is corporate Income Tax .
I wouldn’t want this joker to do my taxes .
A quick and well thought out response Garth. Unsubscribe me.
My God Mr. Turner you are way out of line in your response to Mr.Coates. You question his existence, his motives and call him a liar. Things must be looking pretty grim inside the Liberal Party to go off on a tangent like this against an ordinary citizen that wrote in his take on “The Green Shift”(not to be confused with the company of the same name that is suing the Liberal Party) Pathetic and Shameful
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 1:31 pm
Good idea. As I said before, you come up with some great input but then you negate everything by hurling abusive and offensive comments at people with whom you disagree. Please, don’t negate your good sense and logic.
I would be very interested to see the results of a real live test of the green shift – that would be reality and not theory. But, you know what? I’ll bet that the Liberal party will not take you up on your offer because the reality may be somewhat different than the theory.
But, keep on pushing. And, bravo for volunteering. Now, stop making rude comments and calling people obscene names. You’re obviously too intelligent and perceptive for that sort of thing.
Mr. Coates decided on his own to be a email crusader against the Green Shift. — Garth
By Barb on 08.11.08 12:55 pm
You mean the PMO don’t you, Garth? You did say Mr. Coates doesn’t exist. You did say it was politically motivated. After all, no one other than conservatives think the green shaft is a bad idea, do they? It must have been thus because Garth said so. And all his mindless, spineless, lemmings followed him right over the cliff.
Garth says it was Mr. Coates who started this crusade against the green shaft. It isn’t called dialogue or debate unless you agree with it. If you don’t you are on a crusade, anti Canadian, anti environment, anti …
No, Mr. Coates didn’t start anything. He is just one of the millions of Canadians that believe the liberal green shaft has nothing to do with the environment but is simply a tax revenue generator for liberal program spending.
Whats the liberal answer to liberal policy critique: attack the person. Don’t bother explaining the plan. No need to check the figures to show their accuracy or lack thereof. Just use the resources of the political party to crush the lowly senior citizen. That outta shut up future decenters.
This is what a liberal member of parliament looks like. Their character, their honesty, their integrity: void. This is Garth Turner, ladies and gentlemen. And his peons.
Very dramatic. But I like him. — Garth
Let’s try to be more equitable and treat others with full respect and not be ready to jump all over somebody just because he or she has a differing viewpoint.
By eastofeden on 08.11.08 1:22 pm
Time to climb down from your cross Jesus.
…..Contrary to Garth’s calculations, when you plan for old age, you spend a few years getting your affairs in order – this includes buying appliances which will hopefully last the rest of your life, replacing defective windows and doors and using twirley lights…….
By Jon Coates on 08.11.08 10:47 am
Mr Coates states that he had replaced windows and doors and lives in a condo. The condo corporation may have done the replacements and that is paid for in the monthly condo fees that have been collected since the condominium corporation was established. I have lived in a condo corporation for over 30 years and that has been how our corporation did it. With recent new laws, we have to have an engineers report about every 3 years with an estimate of future costs. This has meant a rise on condo fees for us as our reserve fund was not satisfactory to meet the estimated replacement costs and expenses.
The other day, Bonnie from BC suggested we might become a little more respectful on this blog with less name calling. I agree with her. I feel for myself that I have become much more negative from reading all the name calling and negativity from both sides. I am no angel myself in this regard.
Maybe if we all read and integrated the suggestions from Eckhart Tolle’s book, “The New Earth”, we would have less name calling and negativity and more creative solutions and discourse. I certainly found Tolle’s book fascinating and instructive.
I appreciate all of the thoughtful, creative, respectful postings from lots of people on this blog and they do seem to be mostly Liberal supporters or neutrals. You all know who you are. I don’t name you all in case I forget someone.
Maybe the constant negativity of the neocons has rubbed off on Garth and he rushed to judgment on Coate’s email? Only he knows. I would hardly blame him if he did. The neocons have been inundating the Canadian people with negative comments on the opposition for too many years. Just that negativity alone has turned me off. Why would I want a person and his gang with such a negative attitude leading my country?
In my humble opinion, Harper and his gang are detrimental to Canada’s health and wealth and Dion’s plan is beneficial for the greater good.
It is interesting to me that I swore I would never vote Liberal again after Chretien did not remove the GST. The Liberals who will get my vote and have my support this time have Harper’s behavior to thank. They can also thank themselves for electing Stephane Dion with his integrity and maturity as their leader. If Iggie or Rae were the leaders, I seriously doubt they would have my vote no matter how bad Harper is.
I appreciate Garth Turner and Esther in their persistence and support of their truth and values. I appreciate this blog because it has taught me so much about politics and our political scene in Canada although I don’t particularly like all of what I have learned.
Party) Pathetic and Shameful
By Geoff on 08.11.08 2:12 pm
Beat it ya’ friggin’ troll .
Men – I must have hit home with that one for you to go so far as to make such a comment. But, you didn’t accomplish what you wanted – Jesus is my role model so, thanks for likening me to him. Thanks for the compliment.
“The Green Shift”(not to be confused with the company of the same name that is suing the Liberal Party) Pathetic and Shameful
By Geoff on 08.11.08 2:12 pm
Back to the troll pond .
By Bonnie L on 08.11.08 2:21 pm
Excellent well said post Bonnie. I totally agree with your opinion
Jim Belushi to be at all humourous and yet he was so revered. John Candy, on the other hand, was one of the best.
By eastofeden on 08.11.08 10:29 am
Talking about getting your facts straight EofE. Jim Belushi would be very surprised that you have him as DECEASED when it was JOHN that died.
Get your facts straight MORON and quit rushiong to judgement like you accuse us of. POT calling the KETTLE black I’m sure!
Oh man… you were the kid everyone liked to kick around the school yard weren’t you Garth? You must have been.
Once again the “Great Gartho” sticks his foot in his mouth and gets a butt plug up his ass.
By the way, Mr. Coates did do the calculations for his entire household and the numbers came out even worse under the Liberal Green Shaft.
Ah Turner, that’s what I love about you… just when a guy figures you can’t possibly make yourself look like more of an ass, you eclipse it in spades.
Thanks for the chuckle Garth.
Maybe you can share with us any facts not accurately presented here? Mr. Coates was given the same opportunity after he kindly sent me his picture an hour ago. No changes, interestingly enough. — Garth
BY JON COATES ON 08.11.08 10:47 AM
It’s amazing Mr. Coates that your “power bill is unchanged from what it was 20 years ago” as claimed in your letter which can be found in all over Conservative blogs and in Conservative chain emails with the instructions to pass this on to everyone in your address book in Canada, starting back as early as July 11th that I found in the internet.
I think Jon at the least you are self-appointed in your letter quest, but you should have been forthcoming in your letter about the facts. You’ve caused the Conservatives a credibility problem, because now it will be the Conservatives who are guilty until proven innocent.
From an email Sunday, July 20, 2008 the recipient did your calculations and found said:
“I’m not a great Liberal defender, but I like inaccurate chain e-mails even less, so when my mom sent me an anti-carbon tax rant signed “Jon C. Coates” which implied that seniors would get only $10/year in return for the proposed carbon tax, I tracked down this calculator based on the Liberal plan. It suggests that in fact he would receive $600-$750 in rebates. When your relatives send you this mail, remind them of this simple rule: never trust any e-mail that tells you to forward it to others.”
Perhaps you married a frugal girl Jon, to accomplish that feat that no other Canadian has, but claims that your power bill is unchanged in 20 years seems over the top to me.
And it seems your claims of being A-political are nice, but are you the same Jon C. Coates of Halifax who has written other Letters for competition, simple market forces and deregulation?
Just wondering, since a Jon C. Coates puts his name to letters that appear to be very supportive of Hr. Harper and Mr. Flaherty.
I dare say you appear to be partisan from what you’ve written which is on the internet.
I’ll add more later.
Eden : If you has been here for a longer period of time you would realize that I am rabidly Liberal .
If some stupid moron posts shit like this:
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 12:33 pm
Hatboy, your comments expose you to be the asshole you most certainly are. suck it!
By Jim on 08.11.08 1:29 pm
How do you expect me to respond ?
I despise stupidity in all forms .
I apologize for the Jesus crack as he is also my hero .
I understand ,fully , what you are saying but someone has to keep a check on the bullshit posted on this site .
Most Con-bot posters are right at home with lies and propaganda .
You seem like a reasonable sort .
Garth is the final arbiter of what gets posted .
Men with Hats “Back to the Troll Pond” What a stunning display of whit, I am left speechless with such a stunning retort.You must be the hit of your social group as you dazzle them with your cleaver insights on all things political and worldly. I don’t think I will ever leave an opinion on a blog again at risk of getting such a titanic smack down. Thanks for putting me in my place!
EofE is nothing but a “concern troll”.nothing but Rambling Posts that he/she “looks at all sides” still concludes “It’s the Liberals Fault”.
No, Mr. Coates didn’t start anything. He is just one of the millions of Canadians that believe the liberal green shaft has nothing to do with the environment but is simply a tax revenue generator for liberal program spending.
Whats the liberal answer to liberal policy critique: attack the person. Don’t bother explaining the plan. No need to check the figures to show their accuracy or lack thereof. Just use the resources of the political party to crush the lowly senior citizen. That outta shut up future decenters.
This is what a liberal member of parliament looks like. Their character, their honesty, their integrity: void. This is Garth Turner, ladies and gentlemen. And his peons.
Very dramatic. But I like him. — Garth
By Janice on 08.11.08 2:17 pm
Janice, aka Leaza, aka Catherine, aka Prairie Girl, etc.
You actually gave the gall to talk about Liberals attacking cons. What about all those attack ads against Dion as soon as he became the LPC leader, 10 percenters, etc.- too many to mention.
You are too funny, along with the rest of you con trolls.
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 12:33 pm
Hatboy, your comments expose you to be the asshole you most certainly are. suck it!
By Jim on 08.11.08 1:29 pm
Tough talk from a twinkle- toed little fairy .
Ya, you a real hero moron .Bet you make tough guy faces in your mirror as well.
Pretty brave aren’t cha ?
Try saying it to my face GOOF !
Guaranteed it would be the last words you ,ever, utter .
You are so stupid you make dirt look smart .
OK, boys. Enough. — Garth
. Thanks for putting me in my place!
By Geoff on 08.11.08 2:40 pm
Your welcome.
BY JON COATES ON 08.11.08 10:47 AM
It’s amazing Mr. Coates that your “power bill is unchanged from what it was 20 years ago” as claimed in your letter which can be found in all over Conservative blogs and in Conservative chain emails with the instructions to pass this on to everyone in your address book in Canada, starting back as early as July 11th that I found in the internet.
I think Jon at the least you are self-appointed in your letter quest, but you should have been forthcoming in your letter about the facts. You’ve caused the Conservatives a credibility problem, because now it will be the Conservatives who are guilty until proven innocent.
From an email Sunday, July 20, 2008 the recipient did your calculations and found said:
“I’m not a great Liberal defender, but I like inaccurate chain e-mails even less, so when my mom sent me an anti-carbon tax rant signed “Jon C. Coates” which implied that seniors would get only $10/year in return for the proposed carbon tax, I tracked down this calculator based on the Liberal plan. It suggests that in fact he would receive $600-$750 in rebates. When your relatives send you this mail, remind them of this simple rule: never trust any e-mail that tells you to forward it to others.”
Perhaps you married a frugal girl Jon, to accomplish that feat that no other Canadian has, but claims that your power bill is unchanged in 20 years seems over the top to me.
And it seems your claims of being A-political are nice, but are you the same Jon C. Coates of Halifax who has written other Letters for competition, simple market forces and deregulation?
Just wondering, since a Jon C. Coates puts his name to letters that appear to be very supportive of Hr. Harper and Mr. Flaherty.
I dare say you appear to be partisan from what you’ve written which is on the internet.
I’ll add more later.
By barb the proofreader on 08.11.08 2:40 pm
Barb – I’d really appreciate a link to the above as I’ve been trying to find out what Jon said.
By Calberta on 08.11.08 2:28 pm.
You get excited about a little error like that? Fine, John Belushi. Wow, what a serious lapse on my part. And, you’re comparing apples with oranges. You’ve made the knee-jerk abusive crack that I was talking about.
Sue, your evaluation of me is very confusing and it looks like you just want to say something for the sake of saying something. And, unless I say something is the fault of the liberals, please do not read into it something that is not. You are just out to diss me and it makes you feel good to do so. I hope you feel better now.
Men, no problem. I understand your frustration and I have to admit that I’d like to lash out, as well. But, I figure that it’s a wasted effort so I don’t do it.
I know you are logical and sensible. I do respect what you write when you make a point but I really don’t like it when you have to use words like moron and asshole. I think the intelligence and logic which comes through in your posts is more than enough to make your point.
I respect your right to be rabidly liberal. I am a mixture of conservativism and liberalism. Unfortunately, there is no party that satisfies both so I end up voting for a candidate who appears to be the least harmful and then closing my eyes and hoping everything doesn’t all fall to s**t. Unfortunately, my hopes have been dashed far too often.
would the MP like to see receipts? They are available!
Well it appears more than one Tory (CON) believes he can act beyond the law….tough on Crime hey, perhaps Doug Findly should read other Parliamentary books other than the ones he may have a hand in constructing. Seems you were bag on again Mr. Garth Turner the Cons are running for the hills.
Will any of these people speak the truth and save what is left of their family name?
British Columbia
Burnaby-Douglas, George Drazenovic
Burnaby-New Westminster, Marc Dalton
Cariboo-Prince George, Dick Harris
Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca, Troy DeSouza
Kelowna-Lake Country, Ron Cannan
Kootenay-Columbia, Jim Abbott
Nanaimo-Cowichan, Norm Sowden
Okanagan-Coquihalla, Stockwell Day
Okanagan-Shuswap, Colin Mayes
Prince George-Peace River, Jay Hill
Vancouver East, Elizabeth M. Pagtakhan
Vancouver Kingsway, Kanman Wong
Saskatchewan
Cypress Hills-Grasslands, David Anderson
Desnethe-Missinippi-Churchill River, Jeremy Harrison
Manitoba
Winnipeg Centre, Helen Sterzer
Ontario
Algoma-Manitoulin-Kapuskasing, Ian West
Davenport, Theresa Rodrigues
Kitchener Centre, Steven Cage
London-Fanshawe, Dan Mailer
Parkdale-High Park, Jurij Klufas
Sarnia-Lambton, Patricia Davidson
Scarborough Centre, Roxanne James
Thunder Bay-Rainy River, David Leskowski
Timmins-James Bay, Ken Graham
Toronto Danforth, Kren Clausen
Trinity-Spadina, Sam Goldstein
Vaughan, Richard Majkot
Windsor West, Al Teshuba
York-South Weston, Steve Halicki
Quebec
Argenteuil-Papineau-Mirabel, Suzanne Courville
Beauce, Maxime Bernier
Beauport-Limoilou, Sylvie Boucher
Bas-Richelieu-Nicolet-Becancour, Marie-Eve Helie-Lambert
Charlesbourg-Haute-Saint-Charles, Daniel Petit
Compton-Stanstead, Gary Caldwell
Drummond, Jean-Marie Pineault
Gatineau, Patrick Robert
Hull-Aylmer, Gilles Poirier
Lac-Saint-Louis, Andrea Paine
Laurentides-Labelle, Jean-Sarge Beauregard
Levis-Bellechasse, Steven Blaney
Lotbiniere-Chutes-de-la-Chaudiere, Jacques Gourde
Louis-Hebert, Luc Harvey
Louis-Saint-Laurent, Josee Verner
Megantic-L’Erable, Christian Paradis
Montmorency-Charlevoix, Yves Laberge
Mount Royal, Neil Martin Drabkin
Notre-Dame-de-Grace-Lachine, Allen F. Mackenzie
Pierrefonds-Dollard, Don Rae
Pontiac, Lawrence Cannon
Portneuf-Jacques-Cartier, Howard M. Bruce
Quebec, Frederik Boisvert
Richmond-Arthabaska, Jean Landry
Saint-Laurent-Cartierville, Ishrat Alam
Shefford, Jean Lambert
Sherbrooke, Marc Nadeau
New Brunswick
Beausejour, Omer Leger
Moncton-Riverview-Dieppe, Charles Doucet
Nova Scotia
Dartmouth-Cole Harbour, Robert A. Campbell
Halifax, Andrew House
Halifax West, Rakesh Khosla
Prince Edward Island
Malpeque, George Noble
Newfoundland and Labrador
Bonavista-Gander-Grand Falls-Windsor, Aaron Hynes
Humber-St. Barbe-Baie Verte, Cyril Pelley Jr.
Labrador, Joe Goudie
Random-Burin-St. George’s, Cynthia Downey
___________________________________________________
OTTAWA _ A primer on the alleged misconduct of the federal Conservative party in the last federal election, courtesy of Canadian Press:
Ah Turner, that’s what I love about you… just when a guy figures you can’t possibly make yourself look like more of an ass, you eclipse it in spades.
Thanks for the chuckle Garth.
Maybe you can share with us any facts not accurately presented here? Mr. Coates was given the same opportunity after he kindly sent me his picture an hour ago. No changes, interestingly enough. — Garth
By Joe Calgary on 08.11.08 2:39 pm
Joe Calgary – I happen to know Jon very well. I don’t know what was said between Jon & Garth. I trust they had an informative and non-partisan discussion. I doubt anyone in your party would do the same, without a script from Harper’s operatives.
BY JON COATES ON 08.11.08 10:47 AM
Jon, “If fairness prevailed” then you wouldn’t have left out information in your online email, nor would it have been so partisan. And it is absolutely not credible because you completely failed to mention the Green Shift Calculator in that letter you did up so long ago nor the rebates that you all would receive.
Why did you deliberately leave out the Green Shift Rebate from your letter? That is extremely political!!!!
You sir, DID NOT “bother to do the homework”!!!!!
Instead, you deliberately misled.
Why didn’t you do the Green Shift Calculation? Because you wanted to set up the appearance that Dion’s plan would cost you?
What about Harper’s plan? With Harper’s plan you will incur the costs but without any rebate.
Most people who click twice, can do the calculation, and you’ll find that you would be receiving more than enough to offset, so again you have disinformed. You are clearly partisan for not admitting that part.
When you say here, now “I did my calculations based on myself alone and not on the three people living in my house. Later I found the Green Shift site and ran the calcs using the three people in our household and we still come out worse off than we would be without this tax.”
I think there is no way your statement is true, and with these newly admitted incomes in the household, I think you’ve been caught on that point too.
I think the Cons should have read the label before spamming Canadians with your email.
Send Coates the Con-bot, so called ,Green plan and apply the same numbers with NO rebate .
That should open his eyes .
Find some volunteers to put themselves under the Green Plan .I’ll go first.
Then we will have a working lab.
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 1:31 pm
There`s a moratorium on using chimps for lab experiments.
Security escorts Tory official from Commons hearing
OTTAWA – A special parliamentary committee hearing into the federal Conservative party’s financing of the 2006 election took a dramatic turn Monday when the party’s chief campaign strategist was escorted from the witness table by House of Commons security.
National campaign director Doug Finley refused to leave his seat at the committee table when instructed to by ethics committee chair Paul Szabo. Finley and his lawyer sat impassively for six minutes until two Commons constables arrived and asked him to leave.
Bet that move isn’t in Steve’s manual on being obnoxious asses in Committee meeting? LOL
Garth
Can you help all Canadians to see the benefits of this Green Shift. M. Dion should be able to do this but we hear very little about his meetings other that threw this forum. These benefits must be conveyed to the population in a forthright way that we all understand.
Communicate the message.
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 2:40 pm
There are many fine posters on this forum who can rebut Conservative posters without lowering the level of debate to witless…
By eastofeden on 08.11.08 1:22 pm
This is just the manifestation of the desperation that is saturating the Liberal party and it’s supporters .. all because the Green Shift is confusing Canadians, particularly senior citizens.
The Green Shift was to be the centrepiece of the Liberal election platform, and now that it’s tanking, Liberals are getting desperate and defensive about their prospects in any next election. They are furiously attempting to smear the government with their kangaroo-style committee hearings and are descending into their own mire.
Canadians surely cannot have confidence in Dion-led Liberals based on their antics and failures. Even arch-Liberal Laurence Martin of the Globe and Mail is writing that Canada needs a majority government after the next election.
With the Liberals having lost the West and now losing the Maritimes, and Quebec gone too, that leaves the fate of the country in the hands of Ontario voters. I suspect all that Liberals will salvage is their core Toronto ridings after the next election.
The tragedy is that Liberals know this as well and their behaviour is becoming abominable.
This is what a liberal member of parliament looks like. Their character, their honesty, their integrity: void. This is Garth Turner, ladies and gentlemen. And his peons.
Very dramatic. But I like him. — Garth
By Janice on 08.11.08 2:17 pm
Thought you were dead .
Eastofeden at 8:11, you are probably the only person that didnt realize that the percentage referred to was the reduction in the tax rate and not the overall reduction in tax paid. AH HA! Ive figured it out- you are really Jim Flaherty. The mathematical accumen and razor keen grasp of tax theory proves me right. Now that we have you here Jimdog, can you explain your theory on tax leakage as it pertains to Income Trusts? Hello? Hello?….seems the line the line has gone dead. Shit, any body got a quarter?
Mr. Coates has been a huge shill for the Harper government over the past few months.
Is there a chance he could be related to Bob?
He says he’s his nephew. — Garth
Oh man… you were the kid everyone liked to kick around the school yard weren’t you Garth? You must have been.
And you are still the guy getting,his ass, kicked around the school yard.
Wimp!
More hilarity from the IN-OUT election hearings in Ottawa.
CONservative trolls beware. What you read will make you laugh. The nervous laugh, not the funny laugh.
The Harpo clown brigade in action:
Liveblogging the Ethics committee – Day One, Part 2: At least, unless Doug Finley takes over the keyboard and refuses to leave.
wow, this is a very low blog post garth, going after a senior like that, thats all I have to say and I’m not a blogging tory so no need to edit my post with a sarcastic remark like “another blogging tory opinion, thanks” like you did with that non partisan blogger a few months back.
BY JON COATES ON 08.11.08 10:47 AM
Jon, in one of your many eloquent online letters, you write of “reporting of the facts” and “actually going out and working to get the news from all available sources.” With your credentials, how did you miss out on the rebate – the most important part?
I find Jon’s claim of being apolitical to be not credible, considering his online letters supportive of Harper and Flaherty. One:
From cbc.ca
May 28, 2006 ?”What do you think of the disagreement between the Prime Minister and the Ottawa Press Gallery?”
“Mail
[...] Mr. Harper would be well advised to simply treat this crowd of buffoons with the level of contempt they so richly deserve.”
Jon C. Coates
Halifax
I also found online that your misinformed letter has been deliberately circulated in emails and blogs by Conservatives, so the Cons are very guilty for sending around an email to take your so-called “error” and further disinform people about the Green Shift Rebate.
Here’s one blog comment mentioning it from 7/11/2008:
A Little More On the Carbon Tax (ripoff)
“I very rarely send my cousin any political e-mail. But I recently sent him one on the Axe the Gas Tax site of Bill Tielemans. He and his wife immediately sent me the following and I want to share it with you. It not only reminds us of all the compounding of taxes but even goes back to the Temporary Income Tax
Feel free to copy and paste this to an e-mail . Then send it to your friends. Or just tell them about this site.
This rumble is now moving across the country and will gain force.”
http://howbadtherecord.blogspot.com/2008/07/little-more-on-carbon-tax-ripoff.html
A 2nd “chain email” mention and suggestion:
http://www.freedominion.com.pa/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=102164&sid=186c8c55da74411d7de7a9b5184ad771
“Now when sis starts sending e-mails”
with a note to: “PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK IN CANADA.“
The letter appears on con blogs who ask that it be spammed to Canadians across Canada. Note this “site” hosted by Al Hollingsworth, a retired journalist and broadcaster
http://www.halifaxlive.com/content/view/1059/32/
Hollingsworth: Frustrated seniors begin to speak out – Written by Al Hollingsworth Saturday, 09 August 2008 – The carbon tax lie – As the baby boomers retire, seniors in this country are about to hold the balance of power, a scary thought if you are a Liberal. This week an item popped into my email box with a message to “Pass this on to everyone in Canada.” A near impossible task but, with an Internet platform I can post it for all to see. -Al Hollingsworth
And:
http://www.stockhouse.com/Bullboards/MessageDetail.aspx?s=OIL&t=LIST&m=23605020&l=0&pd=0&r=0
I still don’t get how a power bill incredibly hasn’t changed in 20 years.
And as the letters to the editor quote Mr. Coates letter:
CONSIDER THIS from a one person who has bothered to do the homework:
Mr. Coates did not do his homework and did not include the Green Shift Rebate – and the Conservatives knew that from reading the letter.
The Cons chose to disinform Canadians by using a misinformed letter. Another con job.
And it seems your claims of being A-political are nice, but are you the same Jon C. Coates of Halifax who has written other Letters for competition, simple market forces and deregulation?
Just wondering, since a Jon C. Coates puts his name to letters that appear to be very supportive of Hr. Harper and Mr. Flaherty.
I dare say you appear to be partisan from what you’ve written which is on the internet.
I’ll add more later.
By barb the proofreader on 08.11.08 2:40 pm
Great research Barb on the apocryphal Jon Coates .
Thought it smelled a little fishy .
Now we know .
And if this guy has all these degrees you would think he would have saved more money . Or maybe he lost it all in Income Trusts ,
By Janice on 08.11.08 2:17 pm
Would you be kind enough to give us a breakdown of the CPC plan, what it will cost each homeowner and what rebate we can expect from the CPC related to the regulations they plan to impose? I note I have asked that question for over a month now and not one CPC supporter has come back with a reasonable explanation.
Will there be a carbon tax imposed or will Canada be exposing their exports to the U.S. import tax and have Canadians tax dollars go the the U.S. Treasury?
Monsieur Dion has gotten us into a stale-mate, and is getting us nowhere!
With all of the mistakes that the CONS have made, the LIBERALS should be at 70% in the polls, but alas, it is not happening.
Nor does it seem likely to happen until M. Dion does what is in the best interests of the party, or either comes up with a new platform that can be sold to the electorate, or else steps aside for more decisive leadership.
It is now clear that this Greenshift plan will not give us the impetus we need to replace this government, in spite of all of the emotion and hullabaloo with which it was introduced.
The fact that M. Dion will have to stand against all of the other party leaders in the Television debates on this issue during an election does not bode well for M. Dion.
He will need another issue, or the Liberals will need another leader to turn the tide. The tide should have been turned long ago in that the CONS have given them an easy target to score points with their many mistakes.
In the light of this, the Liberals should be at 70% instead of hoverieng around 30% which will not get us the Liberal government that we need.
We need a leader that can UNITE us and IGNITE us. Otherwise, the words “futile” and “in vain” come to mind.
Jon Coates is a well-educated man, with degrees in accounting, economics, history and political science. He worked as a computer salesman until a heart attack laid him low 20 years ago, shortly after he’d moved into a Halifax condo townhouse which was intended to be a temporary residence. He’s still there, and because he and his wife and his disabled brother-in-law are all on government benefits,..-Garth
“And if this guy has all these degrees you would think he would have saved more money . Or maybe he lost it all in Income Trusts ,”
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 4:07 pm
If you can save any money being on government benefits, can you let us know how and how much one should be saving? You truly have a complete lack of class, to anyone you do not agree with.
How do you know when he bought his appliances? — Garth
By Per Nielsen on 08.11.08 11:36 am
An appliance salesman ?
Mr. Coates has been a huge shill for the Harper government over the past few months.
Is there a chance he could be related to Bob?
He says he’s his nephew. — Garth
By C. B. Innes on 08.11.08 3:53 pm
CBI – I’ve been asking and asking to which sites Jon’s been posting but nobody can tell me. I’d really like to check it out. Per (Peter) says he doesn’t do blogs, but I doubt what he says.
If you can save any money being on government benefits, can you let us know how and how much one should be saving? You truly have a complete lack of class, to anyone you do not agree with.
By Marc on 08.11.08 4:27 pm
Marc – I can HONESTLY say you do not know of which you are talking.
By barb the proofreader on 08.11.08 4:07 pm
Conservative bloggers would not condone spamming would they!!? I am shocked and appalled.
I sincerely hope Mr. Janke is keeping track and will take the appropriate course of action.
“And if this guy has all these degrees you would think he would have saved more money . Or maybe he lost it all in Income Trusts ,”
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 4:07 pm
MWH – I can assure you he had no Income Trust investments.
By kpn on 08.11.08 4:47 pm
Then inform me. How much can one save when living on government benefits?
OOPS – I just quoted Marc’s reply to yours below. I’m sure he doesn’t own IT trusts.
KPN
“And if this guy has all these degrees you would think he would have saved more money . Or maybe he lost it all in Income Trusts ,”
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 4:07 pm
Kudos to you Garth.
I was extremely pleased, having checked back, not only to find that you finally made contact but also updated your blog to better reflect the real situation.
I will reiterate my original question though … why doesn’t the Liberal website help people better understand their cost? Without this help, there is too much fear and disinformation that is out there. If Mr Coates, educated in accounting and economics, can make mistakes in his cost calculations, think what kind of chaos must be out there with the Conservatives being the only ones feeding the cost side of the equation.
Would you be kind enough to give us a breakdown of the CPC plan, what it will cost each homeowner and what rebate we can expect from the CPC related to the regulations they plan to impose? I note I have asked that question for over a month now and not one CPC supporter has come back with a reasonable explanation.
By wjp on 08.11.08 4:22 pm
wjp: It is obvious that Harper has not told them what to say yet! They have to wait for the official version before they may speak! Then it may fall into the category along with Income Trusts: TBR not TBA (to be revised)(to be announced)
Do I blame him? Absolutely not. I admire him. He decided to do something about a situation he perceived was unjust. There are too few among us willing to do so.
It’s just a shame his prime minister lied to him.
posted by Garth Turner on 08.10.08 @ 9:41 pm |
I haven’t had the opportunity to speak with Coates but I think you’ve been duped.
Don’t you find it just a little suspicious that a man with that much education and credentials would quickly and deliberately set out to spread the word without doing a thorough bit of research on the subject?
Doesn’t it seem that perhaps he’s using his accounting background as some sort of way to qualify his claims?
The man is speaking a half truth which is the same as a lie.
His e-mail campaign is very similar to an info-mercial, complete with his TESTIMONY and a false one at that.
And, I’ve never admired those info-mercials.
By Mel on 08.11.08 4:26 pm
Bravo Mel … you are obviously a staunch Liberal, but you can see reality when it hits you in the face.
I am a Conservative supporter, but I would liked to have seen a renewed Liberal party rebuilt under new leadership after the Montreal convention, not somebody from past regimes and carrying all that baggage and dubious backers.
Polling numbers have been quite clear for the past 2 years. Liberals retain their core 30% support but Dion is consistently polling ~15% in leadership popularity. Surely this situation must be dragging down overall Liberal support amongst Canadians … and for Liberal candidates going into any next election the prospects are disastrous to say the least.
Meanwhile the Conservatives manage to stay slightly above the Liberals in most all polls and Harper’s popularity matches his party popularity. This tells you that the Conservative vote is solid for the party and the leader.
However, if the 30% Liberals only supports Dion by 15%, that means half those who support the Liberal party do not support Dion as their leader. This also means that possibly half the core Liberal support will not bother to show up to vote..!!!
I think today’s political media commentary is very revealing, one from the Conservative side and the other from the Liberal side:
L. Ian Macdonald, The Gazette: But there are two problems for the Liberals on the Green Shift. One is the message and the other is the messenger.
Lawrence Martin, Globe and Mail: Today neither of the major parties is closing in on a majority and there is no such charisma king on the horizon to drag us from the torpor. ……The country needs an inspirational leader capable of rising above petty partisan interests.
The tragedy is that Liberals know this as well and their behaviour is becoming abominable.
By HARRY S on 08.11.08 3:35 pm
Compared to your behaviour on this blog with all your insinations and assertions based on opinionated BS, that would be a great upgrade for you.
Kudos to you Garth.
I was extremely pleased, having checked back, not only to find that you finally made contact but also updated your blog to better reflect the real situation.
I will reiterate my original question though … why doesn’t the Liberal website help people better understand their cost? Without this help, there is too much fear and disinformation that is out there. If Mr Coates, educated in accounting and economics, can make mistakes in his cost calculations, think what kind of chaos must be out there with the Conservatives being the only ones feeding the cost side of the equation.
By Randy Too on 08.11.08 5:06 pm
R2 – Jon may have studied economics, etc. but that doesn’t mean he applied his knowledge to his lifestyle. I happen to know differently.
By HARRY S on 08.11.08 5:11 pm
Now matter how you spin it, it is still too close to call, too bad, no majority for you!!!
“another blogging tory opinion, thanks” like you did with that non partisan blogger a few months back.
By ben on 08.11.08 4:05 pm
Or he could just call you a worthless troll. Leasa
And if this guy has all these degrees you would think he would have saved more money . Or maybe he lost it all in Income Trusts ,
BY MEN WITH HATS ON 08.11.08 4:07 PM
Respectful Men, as Dion says, and note what Bonnie L said, but I’ll answer part of that for Mr. Coates. I don’t know if or why he wouldn’t have saved, but that’s none of our business as it wouldn’t keep him from the benefits of the Green Shift Rebates anyway – which he should have known about since the online posting UNFAIRLY claims that Jon C. Coates “bothered to do the homework.” You can see here, he did not. So did the Cons add that line to Jon’s letter, or did Jon?
(BTW, after reading many of his online postings, I sorta like him too, even if he was not forthright, and wrong, and does seem quite partisan to me in his letters – but I reserve my love for those I can trust, and Jon, well.. something’s missing from the facts there.)
But Jon certainly has been vocal in another online Con supportive letter – for Mr. Flaherty on his Income Trust massacre, as Coates claims that was for the wealthy seniors and not for someone of his income, and he took good swipes at named Liberals in it too. So he does repeat what the Conservatives say, pretty much verbatim, so he does support Harper in online letters. So that’s why I suspect. I know curmudgeons like this fellow. He’s smart and he’s cute, but, was he fooled by the Cons or is he just playing hide and seek and being cute? His wife is going to laugh at his antics now. They sound like a great couple.
Anyway, the Harper Conservatives, as usual, have done yet another con job. Maybe the Fraser Institute will study this one.
Garth is right in every way to bring this sort of deception to the forefront, because the Conservatives have now sent this guy’s “letter” and name across Canada for the past months as their example?
The Harper Conservatives have either used an innocent fellow who was conned by their lies – or they have used a not-so-innocent fellow who publicly favours Harper and Flaherty. They can all read. And in either case, it was the Harper Cons who set this guy up in the first place with their Dis-information Campaigns and Splotchy the Oilsmear Lies. Then they added to their dung heap by making this particular fish an example and spreading him around the internet. Wise? No.
These Harper Conservatives are the lowest of the low, using Mr. Jon C. Coates in their massive emailing and blogging campaigns. They knew the letter was not factual.
I only suspect Jon is partisan, even though he won’t admit it, but Harper is extraordinarily guilty on this one, no matter which way you look at it. Too many things are fishy near Littleharbour.
There`s a moratorium on using chimps for lab experiments.
By Jackie’s Hand on 08.11.08 3:26 pm
But none on using lawyers. Besides, they are easier to train, and no one cares what happens to them.
I find it funny that the original post by Mr. Turner has been removed (see Proud to be Canadian) where he basically says that Mr. Coates does not exist (even after talking to his wife), or if he does, he is an idiot. Also, I noticed that the he said he called Mr. Coates on Sunday. But at what time? His original post was on Sunday at 9:41 p.m. Did he phone Mr. Coates at six or seven in the evening or three in the afternoon? This makes quite a difference for his remark of “And Mrs. Coates (I presumed) cheerily took my Toronto-area phone number, waving off my offer to call collect, saying they have “a good long distance plan. He’ll call you back.” Of course, no response”.
If you do not call back Mr. Turner in five minutes, are you avoiding him?
Mr. Turner should be ashamed of his actions.
CBI – I’ve been asking and asking to which sites Jon’s been posting but nobody can tell me. I’d really like to check it out. Per (Peter) says he doesn’t do blogs, but I doubt what he says.
By kpn on 08.11.08 4:43 pm
He has had at least one LTE in the Chronicle Herald and at least two messages in CBCs Cross Country Checkup mail. If you “Google” his name they will come up.
Don’t you find it just a little suspicious that a man with that much education and credentials would quickly and deliberately set out to spread the word without doing a thorough bit of research on the subject?
Doesn’t it seem that perhaps he’s using his accounting background as some sort of way to qualify his claims?
The man is speaking a half truth which is the same as a lie.
His e-mail campaign is very similar to an info-mercial, complete with his TESTIMONY and a false one at that.
And, I’ve never admired those info-mercials.
By Ron p on 08.11.08 5:10 pm
Ditto !
There`s a moratorium on using chimps for lab experiments.
By Jackie’s Hand on 08.11.08 3:26 pm
But none on using lawyers. Besides, they are easier to train, and no one cares what happens to them.
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.11.08 5:30 pm
Thanks Bill .
Too funny . ROTFLMAO
Vile Liberal bile saturates this fine forum provided for us by our MP Garth.
“Join Canadians in conversation with Garth” … thats the banner at the top of this webpage.
Call me when the ‘conversation’ gets civil and the rancour subsides.
Don’t wait up. — Garth
Here is what I get when I google “Robert Coates MP”. Jon told Garth he is his uncle. Looks like he was/is the President of the Conservative Party of Canada.
Nova Scotia Quotes Robert Coates, MP and President of the Progressive-Conservative Party of Canada, interrupting a speech by Nicolae Ceausescu, tyrannical ruler of Romania, …
http://www.alts.net/ns1625/quotes.html – 505k – Cached – Similar pages
Taking into account Barb’s research as well, I really wonder if Jon Coates is telling the truth that he is non-partisan? We do know he mass mailed out incorrect information to benefit the neocons by putting down the Green SHift.
Respect is earned . Never freely given .
By CEZ on 08.11.08 5:31 pm
CEZ – I will tell you too that you do not know of what you speak. I do, I’m related to them.
Vile Liberal bile saturates this fine forum provided for us by our MP Garth.
Heh, Hairy is a shit house poet .
Could be a Haiku .
To WJP at 1:24—-I cannot answer your question concerning whether the present government have any plans to implement any new energy taxes like Dion`s green plan. I have not seen where any new tax bills have been introduced to Parliament and we are not yet in an election campaign—these are the two obvious places to discuss these issues. It would be foolish to prematurely bring forth a plan until one was ready to act.
To wain. at 1:38—try to get over that income trust thing—money is made and lost on the stock market every day—this was merely a technical cover the loophole thing—Harper had nothing to gain by passing this—it`s called leadership—-what Turner is doing is called opportunism.
Oh and I was surprised at the vulgar remark at the end, but then again, man with hat is the pres. of the Turncoate fan club.
William, the Conservative government has indeed unveiled an emisisons abatement program whch will raise energy costs on a par with the Liberal plan, but with no tax cuts. It was referenced in detail on this blog a few days ago. — Garth
Men with Hats On “Your Welcome” LOL your killing me. Are you really Scott Reid? Your banter and points are of about the same quality. I waiting for you to post “I know you are but what am I”
There`s a moratorium on using chimps for lab experiments.
By Jackie’s Hand on 08.11.08 3:26 pm
But none on using lawyers. Besides, they are easier to train, and no one cares what happens to them.
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.11.08 5:30 pm
Thanks Bill .
Too funny . ROTFLMAO
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 5:50 pm
Good news u2 I checked with the Humane Society, they said it would be ok as long as you signed a waver stating you would not try to convince the chimps idea is revenue neutral. They want to make sure you don’t treat them like dumb animals.
Heh, Hairy is a shit house poet .
Could be a Haiku .
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 6:02 pm
…………………………………..
Invite me to your seppuku ceremony after the next election.
Let me provide you with this little gift:
http://tinyurl.com/5u9uq2
“It’s just a shame his prime minister lied to him.” – Garth Turner
Hence the extremely unfortunate and unpalatable position – to say the least – in which Canada and its citizens now find themselves.
When the leaders of our country, and especially the prime minister of Canada, intentionally lie to and mislead the Canadian public; falsify data and analysis; obscure, block and hide information; promulgate twisted propaganda; and interfere with investigations into their conduct; what you are effectively left with is a fascist dictatorship, the likes of which the world has sadly seen both in history and in present day times.
Deceivin’ Stephen Harper is not a “leader.”
He’s a despicable DESPOT!
Wake up Canada, before it’s too late.
No Eof E not “knee jerk” just a calculated assessment of the level of discourse you add to this fine forum.
If you screw up the easy stuff like Belushi -this forum is waaaay over your head.SO back to the CRAP per you go.
By Paul Fist In Your Face on 08.11.08 3:42 pm
I’d have to shrink about 6 inches to be who you think I am. No, Paul, I am not that guy. I wish I had his salary, though. And, re-read what I wrote in my comment. Think about it.
I had no reason to suspect that the dialogue was fluff. As I have said repeatedly, I like Dion and I believe that he is trustworthy and forthright. But, as I have also said repeatedly, I think on what I read and hear and then (and only then) will I comment on it. I do not jump to conclusions and emit knee-jerk reactions nor do I resort to insulting people anonymously. Not everybody is a genius and, FYI, I am profoundly dyslexic and that is the reason I really have to be sure that I have comprehended what I have read.
You never thought of that, did you? Not all of us have regular capabilities; some of us are challenged 24/7 by hidden conditions. Note that I did not refer to my dyslexia as a disability but as a condition.
By needing to make absolutely sure that I comprehend what I read, I am able to think deeply about it and then make an informed and rational statement about it. I do not take the ability to recognize the written word for granted. My condition has also made me more sensitive to other people and their sensibilities and, therefore, I rarely resort to mocking or insulting other people.
So, Paul, take that fist of yours and…well, I think you catch the drift, don’t you. That’s where it is most of the time, anyway, I would imagine.
And yes, I made an exception and have insulted you.
Bill-Muskoka 5:30 pm
Lawyers, no one cares what happens to them. LOL!!!!!
Good one and after todays hearings you can include used car salesmen like Del Maestro too!!!!
CBI – I’ve been asking and asking to which sites Jon’s been posting but nobody can tell me. I’d really like to check it out. Per (Peter) says he doesn’t do blogs, but I doubt what he says.
By kpn on 08.11.08 4:43 pm
He has had at least one LTE in the Chronicle Herald and at least two messages in CBCs Cross Country Checkup mail. If you “Google” his name they will come up.
By C. B. Innes on 08.11.08 5:35 pm
Thanks CBI – I did a Halifax Chronicle search for the last 7 days – nada – doesn’t surprise me as they’ve got about the worst search engine on any msm site. I also did a google search and came up with nothing. Maybe I wasn’t as precise as I should be.
Gee, I’m not really surprised that Jon is denouncing Dion’s plan. Didn’t also surprise me that my bro, Per, got into the act. Just wish that they’d be a little more honest about their situation. My sis called me this aft. – not a mention about this fiasco. I don’t talk politics with them – its useless. And, I don’t want our relationship destroyed. My sis has been one of my biggest supporters/encouragers with my health issues and I love her dearly.
There`s a moratorium on using chimps for lab experiments.
By Jackie’s Hand on 08.11.08 3:26 pm
But none on using lawyers. Besides, they are easier to train, and no one cares what happens to them.
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.11.08 5:30 pm
Thanks Bill .
Too funny . ROTFLMAO
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 5:50 pm
—————————————-
Actually, it has been reported that scientists are now using Conservatives instead of Rats in their laboratory experiments.
It seems that there are some things that Rats just won’t do.
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.11.08 5:30 pm: I’m with MWH: that is too funny. Bill, you’re something else.
By kpn on 08.11.08 5:17 pm: I second that: there should be a cost calculator to accompany the benefit calculator.
By Men With Hats on 08.11.08 5:33 pm: You have made my day, MWH. That is so true. God knows all and sees all. Thank you for that.
It seems that there are some things that Rats just won’t do.
By Robert Gibbs on 08.11.08 6:23 pm
Now that’s funny ! ROTFLMAO
Here is what I get when I google “Robert Coates MP”. Jon told Garth he is his uncle. Looks like he was/is the President of the Conservative Party of Canada.
Nova Scotia Quotes Robert Coates, MP and President of the Progressive-Conservative Party of Canada, interrupting a speech by Nicolae Ceausescu, tyrannical ruler of Romania, …
http://www.alts.net/ns1625/quotes.html – 505k – Cached – Similar pages
Taking into account Barb’s research as well, I really wonder if Jon Coates is telling the truth that he is non-partisan? We do know he mass mailed out incorrect information to benefit the neocons by putting down the Green SHift.
By Bonnie L on 08.11.08 5:57 pm
Bonnie – that is Jon’s uncle. I’m still not convinced that Jon is a Harpie con as I know that he has voted NDP provincially. But, did Garth convince him he’ll benefit under Dion’s plan as opposed to Harper’s non plan of cutting green house omissions? I don’t know.
Please – my husband is 66 and is quite with it, still works, not feeble minded and by no means like a 90 year old.
Overreaction to someone in their 60’s – ubelievable.
I would suggest you unsubscribe me(cuz I ain’t gonna) from your mailing list. In the vernacular of the working man Garth… Peddle your SPAM bullshit elsewhere!
But we love you. Peace. — Garth
By Terry Newman on 08.11.08 1:57 pm
Hey Terry Newman….give us your email address – I can forward all the Green, NDP, federal Cons and “provincial” Con emails/spam that I get. Better clean out your emails….you’ll need room. Don’t be darn petty and use to delete button – easy as piece – just click delete and it magically goes away.
By kpn on 08.11.08 5:17 pm: I second that: there should be a cost calculator to accompany the benefit calculator.
Just want to state that I did not post the above.
If we are going to talk all around the issue we might as well have a look at what we are talking about .
Seems awfully partisan to me .
Garth’s post was pre-mature. He did not have all the facts before he wrote his article, and it comes off as being over the top in retrospect.
However, if what has been revealed here about Mr. Coates is true, then Mr. Coates has been disengenous, to say the least.
It appears that he has represented himself as being apolitical or non-political in his comments, whereas his ‘history’ suggests that he is anything but.
His ‘credentials’ would also suggest that his experience and education would lead credence to his expertise.
Unfortunately, it appears that he is trying to dupe unsuspecting Canadians with partial truths, at best.
If any of this is true, perhaps he would like to post here and explain himself just to clear the air.
Sorry, KPN. I must have read it incorrectly.
I will reiterate my original question though … why doesn’t the Liberal website help people better understand their cost? Without this help, there is too much fear and disinformation that is out there. If Mr Coates, educated in accounting and economics, can make mistakes in his cost calculations, think what kind of chaos must be out there with the Conservatives being the only ones feeding the cost side of the equation.
KPN – this is what I had read. I understood this to mean that there should be something to allow us to calculate the cost. If I misunderstood your intent, I apologize.
I found some of this Coates fellow’s other “letters”. Very Con opinionated, a bit too much so… Coates may exist – he or his “character” has written into Halifax papers in the past, and a Jon Coates is mentioned in two interesting places: A Nova Scotia young offenders Inquiry and The Fraser Institute archives.
He also had an “opinion” on Income Trusts and Flaherty, below.
In one of his letters to editors, he mentions being a senior on CPP and OAS in 2006. But he does come across in other letters as very partisan, using the typical Con lines regarding “competition” “simple market forces” and “deregulation” when complaining about a taxi license issue.
Garth I don’t doubt that this fellow’s figures are not exactly factual in this recent letter, because as you say there was a woman who answered the phone, and I note his full letter does mention “our” household. So your point is valid. I think he’s at least a self-appointed Con but he does seem to toe the party line awfully well, seemingly on command.
I also found that the letter you mentioned has been deliberately circulated in an email, along with two other “fellow’s” letters: from Jon C. Coates, Walt Grochmal (BC) and Brian Morris “a concerned Sr. and loyal Canadian, Kelowna BC”. The same three are also posted in other little online Halifax papers, and i can forward all that if you like. It has also been removed from the Chronicle paper, I think, or at least the page is now blank.
Here’s one blog comment mentioning it from 7/11/2008:
A Little More On the Carbon Tax (ripoff)
“I very rarely send my cousin any political e-mail. But I recently sent him one on the Axe the Gas Tax site of Bill Tielemans. He and his wife immediately sent me the following and I want to share it with you. It not only reminds us of all the compounding of taxes but even goes back to the Temporary Income Tax
Feel free to copy and paste this to an e-mail . Then send it to your friends. Or just tell them about this site.
This rumble is now moving across the country and will gain force.”
http://howbadtherecord.blogspot.com/2008/07/little-more-on-carbon-tax-ripoff.html
There’s a 2nd “chain email” proof:
“Now when sis starts sending e-mails”
http://www.freedominion.com.pa/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=102164&sid=186c8c55da74411d7de7a9b5184ad771
with a note to:
“PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE IN YOUR ADDRESS BOOK IN CANADA.“
And here’s a doozy.. maybe from him?
November 5, 2006
“Was the government right to change the rules on income trusts? Could it have been done differently? ”
http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/letters061105.html
Finance Minister Jim Flaherty’s announcement this week that income trusts would be taxed was properly done: in secret, with no prior warning and after the Toronto Stock Exchange had closed.
I believe the following facts about income trusts should be considered: First, income trusts tend to increase corporate inefficiency by discouraging the retention of a reasonable amount of earnings for investment in new equipment, plants and technology. Since Canadian companies are already sufficiently inefficient, there should be no further inducement to become even more so. Second, this form of ownership deprives federal and provincial treasuries of large, traditional streams of tax revenues which have to be made up by we members of the great unwashed public. Finally, transition is inevitably preceded by a run up in share prices and that only benefits rich, well-connected investors who make up the majority of all shareholders.
Who screamed the loudest in Ottawa? Who else but Liberal front benchers led by Bill Graham, John McCallum and Ralph Gooddale. Their spin was that $25-billion had been lost by poor seniors seeking good returns on their retirement investments. Since the change was also accompanied by concessions for regular corporations and for seniors I guess most of the screams were on behalf of wealthy, connected insiders who have temporarily found themselves in the same leaky boat as ordinary citizens.
I also invite you to contrast the way last yearís announcement was made with the way this yearís announcement by the Conservatives was made: This year there were outraged screams by those who are “entitled to their entitlements” while last yearís was accompanied by an official RCMP investigation into insider trading. Since the NDP is quite vocal in supporting Flahertyís move, the Liberal complaints that poor senior investors had been hurt is probably more about political window dressing than reality. Meanwhile, those of us who live primarily on CPP and OAS benefits say well done Flaherty!
Jon C. Coates
Halifax
Also:
http://www.halifaxnewsnet.ca/index.cfm?sid=100994&sc=614
Last updated at 2:02 PM on 23/01/08
Winter-tire solution
LETTERS
The Halifax West Clayton Park Weekly News
To the editor:
Canada represents at least 10 per cent of the North American automobile market. That buying power should be sufficient to make auto manufacturers jump through a few extra hoops to earn our business. Why not make it a legal requirement that all cars come equipped with four summer tires on them, plus a real spare tire, not the dangerous “toy” ones that get foisted on us now. And also a complement of four more rims, complete with winter tires.
Since the automobile industry has massive buying power, this extra cost should be considerably less than the cost for individuals making the same purchase. Saying “We can’t afford it” should not be an acceptable excuse, either by car buyers or the automobile industry.
Canada is a northern country, where we can normally count on having ice- and snow-covered roads during winter months. Our automobile industry should begin acting like it is aware of this fact by taking these steps. If it’s required by law, all automobile manufacturers would still be on an even playing field.
And, most importantly, poorer people wouldn’t have to die because they believe they can’t afford winter tires.
Jon C. Coates Halifax
Also:
Jon Coates, [no C.]
sent a letter to the Editor that is archived at the Fraser Institute ? argues that the homicide rate may be going up, and he wants that to be studied, and sorta sounds like the same guy:
http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/forum/1997/february/featuring.html
Is the Murder Rate Really Down?
Dear Editor: The On Balance contained in your September 1996 issue of Fraser Forum discussed the decline in the incidence of homicide in Canada ["Murder Down for Fourth Year in a Row-CTV Coverage Up"]. I was disappointed that you would even pay lip service to the proposition that all homicide statistics began in 1976. I recommend that you review your 1995 Fraser Forum article by George Graham, and become reconnected with the idea that there have been three homicide regimes in Canada:
until 1967 when homicide was subject to capital punishment 1967 to 1976 when capital punishment was reserved for those who killed on-duty police officers and prison guards (although no executions took place) 1977 to present-no capital punishment
It is true that the homicide rate has etc. etc…….
Jon Coates Halifax, Nova Scotia
c. 1996 I think??
also without the “C”:
Jon Coates’ name is mentioned in Appendix I in a list of Written Public Submissions of
the Nova Scotia Report of the Nunn Commission Inquiry as:
Coates, Jon – Member of the public, Halifax
The Nunn Report ISBN: 1–55457–085–9 regarding the handling of a young offender who was in a car crash wherein a girl died.
http://fixyouthcrime.com/docs/Report_Nunn_Final.pdf?id=160
To Eof E at 6:21,
You say you are not that guy, I believe you as you are smarter than him- condition and all. But then again Dyslexia causes people to see things backward and in reverse order and would cause some to flip flop on certain positions. Thanks for the rebuttal though. Now ffo ssip.
It is just bloody amazing to see just how many people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Take poor Mr. Coats,for instance, he looks into the mirror and sees a well educated wise old hero and says;”what a smart feller is I.”. Some of us just see an angry self centered parasite living of the backs of hard working taxpayers. As for his education, courtesy of the tax payer, no doubt… what a waste. The people I know, who complain loudest about the tax burden are , for the most part, living off the taxpayer. I don’t hear the homeless grumbling too much nor the many business people I know complaining…they don’t have time.
Anyway, as my old grandfather said,”if you want to thrive, get up by five. It takes hard work to grow a country…an it takes darn good politicians to keep it on track. Give me old time Conservatism or I’m voting Liberal. There I said it.
WW from the KDC:
“Most of the time I don’t have much fun. The rest of the time I don’t have any fun at all.” — Woody Allen
So to cheer Woody up, let’s have some fun . . .
****************************************
Why I Fired My Secretary
Last week was my birthday and I didn’t feel very well waking up on that morning.
I went downstairs for breakfast hoping my wife would be pleasant and say, ‘Happy Birthday!’, and possibly have a small present for me.
As it turned out, she barely said good morning, let alone ‘Happy Birthday.’
I thought, ‘Well, that’s marriage for you, but the kids . . . they will remember.’
Kids came bounding downstairs to breakfast and didn’t say a word. So when I left for the office, I felt pretty low and somewhat despondent.
As I walked into my office, my secretary Jane said, ‘Good morning boss, and by the way Happy Birthday!’ It felt a little better that at least someone had remembered.
I worked until one o’clock, when Jane knocked on my door and said, ‘You know,
it’s such a beautiful day outside, and it is your Birthday, what do you say we go out to lunch, just you and me?’
I said, ‘Thanks, Jane, that’s the greatest thing I’ve heard all day. Let’s go!’
We went to lunch, but we didn’t go where we normally would go. She chose instead a quiet bistro with a private table. We had two martinis each and I enjoyed the meal tremendously.
On the way back to the office, Jane said, ‘You know, it’s such a beautiful day . . . we don’t need to go straight back to the office, do we?’
I responded, ‘I guess not. What do you have in mind?’
She said, ‘Let’s drop by my apartment, it’s just around the corner.’
After arriving at her apartment, Jane turned to me and said, ‘Boss, if you don’t mind, I’m going to step into the bedroom for just a moment. I’ll be right back.’
‘Ok,’ I nervously replied.
She went into the bedroom and, after a couple of minutes, she came out carrying a huge birthday cake . . . followed by my wife, my kids, and dozens of my friends and co-workers, all singing ‘Happy Birthday.’
And I just sat there on the couch . . .
Naked.
****************************************
“It’s just a shame his prime minister lied to him. . . . He’s a despicable DESPOT! . . . Wake up Canada, before it’s too late. — Robert Gibbs, 6:16 pm
That will be taken care of when the election is called — there are more than enough folk, totally fed up with harpo’s lies and distractions.
Above all, watch for CRAP to come out verbally flying, so as to divert people’s attention away from what MUST be done.
BTW, a telemarketer called this p.m.; I remembered an e-mail a friend sent a while back on how to skip these annoying calls.
I interrupted the person by saying, “Excuse me, there’s someone at the door; I’ll be back in a tick”; put the phone gently down, and went outside to play with the grandkids.
A couple of minutes later, the ‘beep – beep – beep’ was going. Great way to get rid of them!
Much verbosity about nothing, as usual!
Invite me to your seppuku ceremony after the next election.
Let me provide you with this little gift:
http://tinyurl.com/5u9uq2
By HARRY S on 08.11.08 6:15 pm
The only one who is going to disembowel themselves is you and your ilk when you are reduced to 35,seats .
Suck it up sunshine .
….course the government would never lie to us, would they Garth.
Wasn’t your boy Dion AGAINST a carbon tax a while back? Just like Harper didn’t believe in Global Warming.
By kpn on 08.11.08 6:22 pm
Try typing “Jon C. Coates” with the quotation marks in the google search field and indicate that you want pages from Canada. You should find some references.
To wjp on post 08.11.08 8:55 am
“You will forgive me but defining people as left and right in Canadian politics require a wee bit more than “you people on the left”. For example, are you suggesting the CPC are on the right and the Liberals on the left?”
WJP you wanted me to clarify on left / right on politics.
We have the three opposition parties in parliament today,the liberals,the bloc,and the NDP.
The liberals today under the leadership of Mr.Dion is to the left you may or not like it but it is a fact. Does that mean that every single member in the party is left of course not. But the party has tilted left you know and I know it.
Then we have the other two parties the Bloc and the NDP. The NDP is a socialist party,I don’t think that anyone would argue that. Then we have the BLOC…oh well I’M not going to get in to that.
WJP you have stated that this government has spent more then any other in Canadian history. But what you forget to mention is this:
1) We have a war going on in Afghanistan if you haven’t notice. That cost us a lot of $$$
2) This government is rebuilding our military in which the liberal government cut their budget to the bone. This also cost us a whole lot of $$$.
3) This government also had to repair the fiscal balance with the provinces,in which up to recently the liberals didn’t want to admit which themselves created.
So yea when take all this into account they have spent more than any other government in history.
WJP unless you don’t our military in Afghanistan,in which the liberals send them there ill equipped.
WJP unless you want to cut our military budget to the bone as it was in the 90’s fine.
WJP unless you want to create the fiscal imbalance with the provinces that we had for a long time under the liberal government,sure we would cut our budget by a few billions.
If Mr Coates, educated in accounting and economics, can make mistakes in his cost calculations, think what kind of chaos must be out there with the Conservatives being the only ones feeding the cost side of the equation.
KPN – this is what I had read. I understood this to mean that there should be something to allow us to calculate the cost. If I misunderstood your intent, I apologize.
BY EASTOFEDEN ON 08.11.08 6:48 PM
East & KPN,
If I read you both correctly, we are all coming to the same conclusion. An interested Canadian who could do the “cost” calculation, can do the “rebate” calculation quite easily.
So to that first point, this fellow’s biggest, so-called “mistake” was either believing the Cons and not bothering with going to the The Green Shift Website, or making a one-man attempt to UNFAIRLY slant an issue. It now appears he is just part of their gaggle.
When the beloved Harperites took Jon’s broken ball to run with it, THEY, knew full well it was a bomb, not a ball.
Besides.. Jon’s uncle is a Top Conservative? PLEASE!! I figured</I< something was up, from what I’d read. I bet Garth probably knew of the elder Coates.
Yes, Jon C. Coates appears in his writings to be quite partisan, and now connected, so he is likely to have done the “one sided” thing on purpose… Build up the folly… stone by stone, each stone separately added but leaning on one another. Con Blogs post the first folly as being real, then suggest others mass email it. The “trick” gets momentum until it’s hard to take back.
Like Swiftboating. Mr. Coates the demurring partisan, planted “miscalculations” of folly.
Garth is crazy like a fox. That’s just my opinion.
The Prime Minister did not lie to Mr Coates. All I heard him say is that he disagreed with Mr Dions position. The Premier of NS does not agree with the program similar as other Premiers.
These figures you keep throwing around on the tax advantage could be bogus similar to most government promises.
The problem is not Mr Harpers lie. The problem is Mr Dion put this green shift out there without any data to support it. He and you are spending the summer trying to convince people that the figures you are using are sound. It does not make sense as someone has to pay the piper in order to generate these so called tax cuts.
If this plan is adopted, I personally believe the country will be in a world of hurt when you consider the present enconomic situation.
Afghanistan Transforms Canada
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/08/11/AfghanCan/
To play junior partner to empire, we’ve militarized our identity.
By Murray Dobbin
August 11, 2008
TheTyee.ca
Some government policy decisions are so profound in their impact that they can actually change the nature of the country. Medicare was one such policy decision and so was the signing of the Canada-U.S. Free Trade Agreement.
It could be argued that the decision to take on an explicitly war-fighting role in Afghanistan will turn out to be another watershed decision, this one at odds with Canadian values and Canadians’ convictions about the military’s role in the world and society.
It also is having the effect of transforming both our foreign policy and our foreign aid policy. Our role in the war is dominating our international reputation and integrating us into the U.S. and its imperial designs on Middle East oil. In order to justify this colonial occupation, Canada now spends so much of its (paltry) aid budget on Afghanistan (much of it finding its way into the pockets of corrupt officials) that there is barely any financing left over for other developing countries’ needs.
Meanwhile, the conflict and its “war on terror” rationale are being used to justify massive increases in military spending, distorting the role of government and the spending priorities of Canadians.
Lastly, the military’s role in Canadian politics and culture is being rapidly Americanized. Canadian military spokespersons now openly promote their war-fighting role and take part in cultural events, and the media (most notably the CBC) promotes this new expansive role.
Why we fight
It is hard to imagine a less honourable “mission” on which to base such fundamental changes to the country. There are no longer any secrets about the Afghan conflict or Canada’s continuing role in it. It is an increasingly brutal occupation, unwinnable in any foreseeable circumstances, threatening to become an even wider regional conflict involving Pakistan. The war’s “building democracy” cover story has been debunked by countless sources. The initial invasion was justified on the basis of destroying al-Qaeda, a loosely organized force of no more than 300 fighters. The Taliban government, as hideous and deeply reviled as it was, had nothing to do with 9-11.
Any military action that followed the rapid rout of al-Qaeda was directed at occupying the country as part of the U.S. plan to control Middle East oil and gas. Alan Greenspan, the former head of the U.S. Federal Reserve, stated this year that Afghanistan and Iraq were all about oil. The Taliban had broken off negotiations with the U.S. for a pipeline from the Caspian Basin. According to Middle East expert Eric Margolis, “In early 2001, six or seven months before 9-11, Washington made the decision to invade Afghanistan, overthrow Taliban, and install a client regime that would build the energy pipelines.”
A ‘good war’ winnable?
Afghanistan is increasingly framed as the “good war” by those who have long since given up portraying the Iraq quagmire as morally justified. Even the “hope” candidate in the U.S. election, Barack Obama, is now running on the good war myth, promising to send soldiers from Iraq to bolster the 60,000 NATO and U.S. troops now there and to “win” the war.
But winning in Afghanistan is sheer fantasy. Just ask the British and the Russians. U.S. General Dan McNeill, the former commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan, recently stated that it would take 400,000 troops just to pacify the country. Even if every U.S. soldier in Iraq transferred tomorrow, they would still be 200,000 short. The UN has said that its analysis shows one third of the country is literally a no-go zone, controlled by insurgents, and an additional one half is “high risk.” Even Kabul is not safe, as attacks in and near the capital have increased by 70 per cent since January. Supply lines from Pakistan are under constant attack.
A report in the International Herald Tribune claims the Taliban’s “resilience and ferocity are sowing alarm” in Washington and NATO capitals and that “security officials talk of a noose tightening around the capital.” Tensions between the Karzai government and its U.S. and NATO backers have reached the boiling point over the opium trade, which helps finance the Taliban. Thomas Schweich, until recently the U.S. co-ordinator for counter-narcotics for Afghanistan, said in a New York Times feature article that Karzai himself was “deeply involved in protecting the opium trade” because his supporters depend on it.
The “hearts and minds” struggle is in even worse shape. With so few troops, occupying forces have to rely increasingly on U.S. air power just to maintain the status quo, with predictable results: up to 1,000 civilians killed in the past six months (with 260 of those in July alone), including a wedding party of 47 slaughtered in Helmand province recently.
The NGOs trying to deal with this catastrophe are now in full panic mode, cutting back their operations. Their network, ACBAR (Agency Coordinating Body for Afghan Relief), representing 100 Afghani and international organizations, issued a statement on Aug. 1 drawing attention to the civilian casualties, the spread of danger to previously secure areas and increasing attacks on aid agencies and their staff (19 killed since January, twice the total for all of 2007).
Karzai’s cardboard presidency
But what of the democratically elected government of Hamid Karzai? The man they call the mayor of Kabul — because that is as far as his government’s authority extends — is perhaps the best evidence of the real purpose of the occupation as well as its inevitable failure. The U.S. blithely “appointed” Karzai as interim president and then manipulated the political process to ensure that he won the subsequent election. A former consultant for U.S. oil giant Unocal, Karzai (a former Taliban supporter) was part of negotiations between the Taliban and Unocal for a gas pipeline through Afghanistan to Pakistan and India from the Caspian Basin. The U.S. was negotiating with the Taliban until four months before 9-11.
Karzai has literally no political base amongst the competing tribes in the country. His support is American fire power and cash and Afghan opium producers. Most observers agree that he was elected president primarily because he was, at least, not a warlord. Yet his election was the result of systematic manipulation by the U.S. and by the changing of the 1964 secular constitution to one that declared Islam supreme: no laws could violate “the sacred religion of Islam.” The new Political Parties Law also restricted parties. They were not allowed to pursue policies that were “contrary to Islam.” Many secular parties were effectively excluded from the parliamentary elections of 2005. These largely unknown details of the Afghan political system are detailed in Jack Warnock’s excellent new book: Creating a Failed State: The US and Canada in Afghanistan.
Warnock, author of many acclaimed books on international affairs, also details the systematic breaking of the law banning political parties or individual candidates associated with armed groups. He quotes the Afghan Research and Evaluation Unit’s analysis of the election results: of 249 members elected to the House of the People, 133 had fought in the internecine mujahideen war. The Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission concluded that “80 per cent of winning candidates in the provinces and more than 60 per cent in… Kabul have links to armed groups.”
Promoting an Islamist state
Following his own election, Karzai appointed some of the most reviled war lords in the country to senior posts, including Abdul Rashid Dostum, known as the “butcher of the north” to be the new army chief of staff. All of this, of course, was done with the approval and connivance of the U.S.
Despite the talk of democracy, the U.S. — with Canada in obsequious support — still holds to its strategic position that it is better to have an Islamist state than a secular one that might actually be committed to modern government: industrial development, social programs, public education, human rights and the strengthening of civil society. This strategy goes back to the days of Jimmy Carter’s administration, the one which created the mujahideen on the theory that religious fanatics would be the most determined foes of the godless Russian communists then occupying Afghanistan.
Warnock quotes Daan Everts, the former NATO special representative in Afghanistan, about the systematic sabotaging of genuinely democratic government: “…the result has been an extremely chaotic parliament. There are 248 talking heads with very little discipline and little organized deliberations that are meant to produce legislation which the country so badly needs. We deliberately did this.” Combine this with a constitution that put enormous powers in the hands of the president and you have a political structure designed to ensure American dominance.
Dying to protect a pipeline
The definitive piece of evidence about the real goals in Afghanistan arrived a few weeks ago with the announcement that Afghanistan had signed a major deal to build the pipeline the U.S. has wanted all along. If the reports are accurate, the $8 billion pipeline will go through the southern part of the country — and right through Kandahar. With this final piece of the puzzle in place, Canada’s role becomes even more clear: a private protection force for the American pipeline.
Right now the Canadian military are riding high, arrogant and confident that their new war-fighting role as junior partner to the U.S. empire, and their new billions in spending money, are secure. Maybe. But the Afghan conflict is set to bleed America, just as it bled the Soviet Union. As time passes, the unfolding catastrophe might just drive the Canadian generals back into their cushy quarters and convince Canadians to demand their money back. And to demand back, as well, the traditional peacekeeping role of Canada’s military.
See how easy it is to blow off M. Dion’s Green Shift and carbon tax … and still he intends to make it the centrepiece of his next election campaign .. brave but foolish man, wouldn’t you say??!!!
I do so look forward to a Fall election campaign where a sociology professor will be promoting his complex taxation shifting scheme to the Canadian voters .. and attempting to convince them it’s neutral, innocuous and innocent … and it will save the planet from global warming caused by Canada’s tipping point 2.3% GHGs (particularly in English)..!!!
Bring it on …..
By The Right on 08.11.08 7:42 pm
That ia a wonderful summary but you didn’t address my question. Do I think we should be in Afghanistan, what does thst have to do with being right or left? Only the right support wars? You said the Libs put us in there, so I guess they are on the right of that issue? Fiscal imbalance did not mean trying to buy votes just prior to the Quebec election…Ontario is still getting less than Quebec for immigrants so I might suggest there is still an imbalance. I would suggest the time of the early 90s when Finance Minister Martin was trying to put this country back in good economic shape was and is a far cry from a government that was left a 14 billion dollar surplus. However, the CPC will spend us back into that same situation as very tough times lie ahead and they haven’t the foresight to have themselves prepared. It is quite evident that the Liberals under Martin were quite fiscally responsible and conservative, while it appears the Harper government is spending all they can to try to secure votes. Now if you wish to speak of social matters, I will concede that all parties are left of the CPC…I speak of policy rather than individuals…
The term left and right do not really apply any longer in Canada, both the CPC and the Liberals are vying for middle position to pacify voters. The other parties are not going to assume power so they become irrelevant in this discussion…oh one last thing, I was aware our country was in Afghanistan, and if it had been up to Harper we would be in Iraq as well. Thank God, Mr. Chretien was wise enough to keep us from invading a sovereign nation.
Off Topic:
What is Canada’s position this terrible situation that is unfolding in Georgia.
Will Priime Minister Harper condemn the Russian agression and when?
Should we move to kick Russia out of the G8?
If this plan is adopted, I personally believe the country will be in a world of hurt when you consider the present enconomic situation.
By David Halfkenny on 08.11.08 7:54 pm
I would suggest we are in for a world of hurt under this present government regardless of a green shift or not…
and do you think the CPC plan is not going to cost anything? And what rebates do they have in mind now that they have raided the piggy bank to try to buy votes? And how do they intend to deal with Mr. Obama’s proposed tax in Canadian imports…????
Coates, Jon – Member of the public, Halifax
The Nunn Report ISBN: 1–55457–085–9 regarding the handling of a young offender who was in a car crash wherein a girl died.
http://fixyouthcrime.com/docs/Report_Nunn_Final.pdf?id=160
By John on 08.11.08 6:52 pm
John – thanks for posting your above quotes. Jon used to send Lets to the Editor at the Daily News, a canwest site, until they closed down. I heard he sent lots to the Chronicle Herald after the DN went under, but next to none were posted. Gather he went elsewhere to pass on his message.
If he’s reading this, I hope he’ll take it in good sted. I don’t agree with him in many things, but he has a right to his own opinions.
Above The Law!! what is this crap???….OTTAWA – The Conservative party advised former candidates and their agents not to testify at a Commons committee inquiry into questionable election expenses in the so-called “in-and-out” scheme, MPs were told Monday.
And two Tories who were involved in the scheme – which allegedly shifted advertising expenses illegally from the party to individual candidates – ignored summonses ordering them to appear
Sorry a change of topic but really how can this be tolerated??
By kpn on 08.11.08 5:17 pm: I second that: there should be a cost calculator to accompany the benefit calculator.
Just want to state that I did not post the above.
BY KPN ON 08.11.08 6:33 PM
Hi KPN! Welcome back. I wondered why you hadn’t posted recently.
Sheesh… you can probably point the finger at Leasa, especially after your great jab at her today. Sounds like you missed my post last week of how many times Leasa has been caught, and she ADMITTED, that she posts as other people! Then she had the gall to call me devious. You can find some examples of Leasa’s deceptions listed here:
AT:
BY BARB THE PROOFREADER ON 08.05.08 4:39 PM
AND:
BY BARB THE PROOFREADER ON 08.06.08 3:52 PM
(note they are on the same thread but on the 5th and 6th respectively)
http://www.garth.ca/weblog/2008/08/04/from-calgary-to-halton/#comments
I’ll post more if Garth will allow the space.
And KPN, so sorry, I didn’t see your earlier notes. Did you still want me to post some links?
The Chronicle Herald copy of his letter seems to have been removed, although it’s shadow still appears in the google search.
I can post a bunch of links for you to his letters, just let me know and I’ll check back.
He does write a good letter, and he’s doing his part. But his interests are slanted, from crime rate questions to deregulation, he and I disagree. I have no problem with his attempts to be a good citizen. He’s even very compelling. His letters are well thought out, but they are partisan, so his material source seems suspicious to me. It’s almost like he was a lawyer. But as to whether he fell victim to Harper or was pushing the cause a bit… I’m now voting for the latter. He’s just doing what he can.
So Garth, WHO forged KPN’s name?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So I Googled Emissions Abatement Program and I could find any reference to a Canadian program by that name but I did find myself on a New Zealand web site and they were talking about a livestock gas emission program—now I don`t even want to think about that poor Kiwi following around some old cow measuring gas by volume.
I don`t care if its carbon credits or abatement programs or shifty new taxes, voters eyes will glaze over when you start talking about that—just ask Dion how his summer is going. And if every Canadian follows all the guidelines put forth, then our CO2 contributions go from 2.4 percent to 1.8 percent of man made CO2,
which is less then half of total planet emissions.
Having said that,I think we all live too large and the best way to discourage waste is to increase cost—I just don`t know we are going to do about the other 97.6 percent in the rest of the world.
Bring it on …..
By HARRY S on 08.11.08 8:04 pm
Running against the most dishonest and unethical PM should be a breeze, and the whosh you will hear is the wind from Harry’s sails as they deflate and his ship sinks…
Tories in and out scheme!!!…..The hearing got off to a raucous start when Doug Finley, who directed the party’s winning national 2006 campaign, tried to be the first witness of the day, sitting down at a witness table and insisting on his right to speak after showing up two days before he was scheduled to appear.
Finley then stunned MPs by ignoring requests from Liberal committee chair Paul Szabo to leave and return for his scheduled appearance on Wednesday. Szabo eventually had Commons security guards escort Finley from the room.
As reporters trailed him down hallways, Finley refused to explain why he could not appear later in the week as the committee had requested. When asked if he would return voluntarily, he replied: “Not likely.”
He said he had told the committee it was the only day and time he could appear
???????? how long can these thugs be tolerated??
East & KPN,
If I read you both correctly, we are all coming to the same conclusion. An interested Canadian who could do the “cost” calculation, can do the “rebate” calculation quite easily.
So to that first point, this fellow’s biggest, so-called “mistake” was either believing the Cons and not bothering with going to the The Green Shift Website, or making a one-man attempt to UNFAIRLY slant an issue. It now appears he is just part of their gaggle.
When the beloved Harperites took Jon’s broken ball to run with it, THEY, knew full well it was a bomb, not a ball.
Besides.. Jon’s uncle is a Top Conservative? PLEASE!! I figured</I< something was up, from what I’d read. I bet Garth probably knew of the elder Coates.
Yes, Jon C. Coates appears in his writings to be quite partisan, and now connected, so he is likely to have done the “one sided” thing on purpose… Build up the folly… stone by stone, each stone separately added but leaning on one another. Con Blogs post the first folly as being real, then suggest others mass email it. The “trick” gets momentum until it’s hard to take back.
Like Swiftboating. Mr. Coates the demurring partisan, planted “miscalculations” of folly.
Garth is crazy like a fox. That’s just my opinion.
By barb the proofreader on 08.11.08 7:45 pm
Barb & all others who have posted here about Jon. I’m not sure if Jon’s uncle is even alive now. Jon had always been a conervative. I know he believes in a get tough with youth crime policy. I know he’s not a partisan non-thinking neocon.
When I clicked on Garth’s blog this am, after being away for a week on vac in Mtl., I was flabbergasted (sp?) to see my BIL as the topic of Garth’s daily blog. I do not agree with many of his or one of my brother’s (Per’s) POV’s. If they read this fine. I’m being honest & I believe they already know how I feel politically. I love them both. However, I do not think either of them have been totally honest. They would call be biased & I can also call them likewise. It has been a difficult decision for me to fully admit my relationship to them. Not because they have the views that they do – they are entitled to them. But, because I know so much more than what has been revealed, you’ll have to base your opinions on that. Much of it is factual, but, as in most cases, what you don’t know, is what you don’t know.
So we have two choices . Ignore everything Coates has written or fabricate a bigger lie .
Personally I think the issue should end right here . We have already kicked the issue to death and no one will be satisfied by whatever out come occurs .
I would think Coates feels chastened and humbled by all the fuss he has caused.
Or perhaps that was his intent . To get a lot of attention and cause Liberal’s a lot of embarrassment .
Whatever the intent his fifteen seconds of infamy are over .
Is there some sort of bug happening at this site currently? Comments appear to be appearing temporarily, then not showing up again. What’s up?
They enter a queue, and await moderation. — Garth
By The Right on 08.11.08 7:42 pm
90 of our best Canadians have lost their lives in Afghanistan and I want YOU to tell me why?
PMHarpie wants to spend $500 BILLION over the next 20 years(add on cost overruns) and I want YOU to tell me why?
The Cons environmental plan will tax all Canadians without any tax credits and I want YOU to tell me why?
“And if every Canadian follows all the guidelines put forth, then our CO2 contributions go from 2.4 percent to 1.8 percent of man made CO2, which is less then half of total planet emissions. Having said that, I think we all live too large and the best way to discourage waste is to increase cost.
—“I just don’t know what we are going to do about the other 97.6 percent in the rest of the world.”
BY WILLIAM ON 08.11.08 8:30 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do. We set an example.
… only then.. can we have a voice.
Seppaku-ritual disembowelment .
I want to clarify something. As soon as Dion’s Green Shift plan was revealed I spoke to my sis, Jon’s wife, who questioned me on the Green Shift plan. I knew she had already been ‘indoctrinated’ by her hubby and sent her the web site of the Green Shift plan. I told her I had done a calculation and what we’d receive in tax rebates. Don’t recall she ever got back to me.
By barb the proofreader on 08.11.08 8:23 pm
Barbie, you are a lying liberal who in the real world would have no credibility what so ever. Are you going to fess up to being a liberal MP? Or at least working closely for one?
I highly doubt very much that Garth will answer your question, because then he’d have to admit that a “worthless troll” actually has value and is honest.
So Barbie, you are such a liar you wouldn’t know the truth if it hit you in the face. Doesn’t it tell you anything about this party you so doggedly support when you’re only retorts can be lies and personal attacks?
You suck. Leasa
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080811/soldier_afghanistan_080811/20080811?hub=TopStories
2nd Canadian to die in 3 days for what? Another victim of the occupation. We can’t win, not ever, why are we there?
Everytime I read something about AFghanistan, knowing that the country can’t be won militarily, I curse both the Cons and the Liberals.
Pakistan is playing a double game, being America’s ally is more dangerous than being its enemy.
Will Priime Minister Harper condemn the Russian agression and when?
Should we move to kick Russia out of the G8?
By AToryNoMore on 08.11.08 8:11 pm
What did BUSH say cuz Harpo only listens to his Neo Con master!
By kpn on 08.11.08 8:59 pm
By kpn on 08.11.08 9:16 pm
Thanks.
I commend Mr. Coates for complaining about a conceived attack on senior’s savings. I would suggest that Harper is the biggest attacker of senior’s savings in Canadian history when he entrenched the double taxation of dividend income in RRSP/RRIF accounts.
dubya is thoroughly ticked off that Iraq will carry out an agreement with China, worth $1.2 bln. or more to send oil their way.
Now the neo-clowns think it’s raining Nazis. The Nazis are ultra right-wing dipsticks who stop at nothing to get what they wanted (they haven’t got it so far).
Because Georgia has plenty of black gold and natural gas, are very cozy with the WH administration, it is clear who was behind Georgia’s push for independence, but now it has backfired.
http://tinyurl.com/5ah5lc
It has been a difficult decision for me to fully admit my relationship to them. Not because they have the views that they do – they are entitled to them. But, because I know so much more than what has been revealed, you’ll have to base your opinions on that. Much of it is factual, but, as in most cases, what you don’t know, is what you don’t know.
By kpn on 08.11.08 8:59 pm
You can choose your friends but not your relatives .
Don’t sweat it .Concentrate on your health that is the only issue that should matter .
Crazy like a fox.
How do you put out a fire that several vandals started?
Name the vandals of course.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TS, I found something of interest for you..
I was looking for links and I stumbled on a new one from today:
Drum roll please – it’s Steve Janke’s newest disinformation attempt. He blogged this story, and has left out the part where Mr. Coates has shown long term signs of being partisan.
“Jon is not a member of the Conservative Party. Ages ago, he gave all of $100 to the Progressive Conservatives, but tore up his card over an asylum controversy during the Mulroney years.”
“Yes, TS, Janke got on this one. You can start breathing now. Why don’t you demand more reliable information from Stephane Dion’s communications guru?”
“The bottom line is that if anyone has been fooled, it’s been those Liberals who spend so much time on Garth Turner’s blog, telling him how great he is. I can only imagine the disappointment.”
http://stevejanke.com/archives/270433.php
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Heck no Janke! We’re ecstatic! Garth got to the bottom of the Cons big blog and email scam, and in a nice efficient way, exposing the players and the game. I bet you won’t write about the newest info on how Jon C. Coates is connected and partisan. I repeat my earlier assertion that this is the Cons equivalent to a Swiftboating of The Green Shift.
Hey, it worked in 2003 to bring the Americans four more lovely years of Bush, no wonder they tried it.
So Conservatives… which scenario is it?!
Was the “innocent” Coates 100 percent set up by CON advertising and USED by the Conservatives in a huge LIE about The Green Shift?
Or was Coates complicit?
It’s one… or the other.
“I have asked David to find citizens who wish to work hard, for nothing, for their country.”
From Garth’s blog ‘06 – http://www.garth.ca/weblog/2006/04/13/no-horse/
I’ve always done that, but not no more.
Of course I’ve never wanted to break out into politics. But of course there are those where that is all that matters, won’t mention any names. Instead of Citizens working for nothing, I think the Labour/Loss of Jobs/Economy says no can do anymore. Check out what Labour is doing about all of this loss of jobs, still bickering. Check out what MP’s/MPP’s/Union Bosses/No-Show Senators, etc make a year?
During elections are MP’s/MPP’s our employers? MPs are hardly going to give money away to strangers who work for them when they can give it to members of their family for doing no work whatsoever. I wonder what the budget is anyway? Wal-Mart at least pays minimum wage, but you can’t form a union in Canada. Labour isn’t winning that one, why is that? If you work for the benefit of someone else w/o pay isn`t that slavery? At the very least it is exploitation.
Oh I know it’s called volunteer work. Charity. For Capitalism, the new word for Democracy. I’m curious how many citizens not wishing to break out in politics will have any will left to do that. Just wondering.
Thank you for posting the update Garth.
“you are a lying liberal who in the real world would have no credibility what so ever. Are you going to fess up to being a liberal MP? Or at least working closely for one? So Barbie, you are such a liar you wouldn’t know the truth if it hit you in the face. Doesn’t it tell you anything about this party you so doggedly support when you’re only retorts can be lies and personal attacks?
You suck.
Leasa”
BY LEASA ON 08.11.08 9:25 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Leasa,
I have never been so flattered in my life, except two times: my husband and my Dad have both said if I hadn’t gotten sick then I could have been Prime Minister. But that’s just them. They love me.
Leasa, I don’t mean to rain on your lying parade, but out of the blue you began to launch personal attacks on me for no reason other than I’ve posted true statements and my own opinions.
Your mistake is that you are lazy. If you looked up real facts, I bet you would not be in trouble with the people here.
Will you apologize to these people here and start over, or will you just ignore this too? If you apologize, I will become your defender for no other reason than your complete apology, because I can see you are trapped and your job as a troll is now thoroughly compromised. I have a soft spot for wounded animals.
You post that you want dialogue. You ‘companion up’ with those who you agree with. You sometimes have something to say. And then you go and blow it by doing some of the worse things.. you sign someone else’s name to a comment. You impersonated another blogger here by the name of Pytor and you admitted it. That is a violation of that person’s name and you must be called out on it.
And just the fact that you have posted under other names too, only complicates your predicament.
Then, because you think people are too lazy to go to my above link sourcing your confession of these acts, you call me names. And make a ridiculous assertion that I’m an MP. (thanks again by the way, I liked that)
If you stopped shooting the messenger (a very lazy act) maybe then the boyz wouldn’t be so mad at you. Oh, you’d also have to stop lying too. And why are you accusing me of calling you names? I think I’ve only called you a liar.
Capitalism, the new word for Democracy. I’m curious how many citizens not wishing to break out in politics will have any will left to do that. Just wondering.
By Molly on 08.11.08 10:42 pm
I certainly understand democracy is being subverted. Capitalism is one of the oldest institution we have as a species. Family was first then came in various degrees head honcho arrangement religious leader or war lord which was based in some form of trade tax or other form of Capitalism. Democracy is relatively new on the scene with a large portion of the world yet to understand.
The people of Afghanistan have only what they have now and who gave it to them so what is it they see, As you say nothing but a lot of corruption. Seems both the government and judicial look a lot like the country it was patterned after. The rule of law does not apply to the elite, only to the middle class, much like GST.
economic conditions will force the changes required.
Good luck dealing with Sybil ( Leasa ) she has so many personalities it is like a crowded room in her echo chamber of a mind.
Seriously delusional . She ,even, forgets who she is or what name she is currently using .A real Billy Milligan .
Ain’t enough Thorazine on this planet to help Leasa .
She is drowning in dopamine .
A sad case really .Therapy is expensive but bubble wrap is cheap .
I have visions of a pathetic creature ,sitting in the corner of a hospital room on the floor wearing a faded and torn hospital gown , grinning a mad grin and drooling as she pops bubble wrap .
Good luck !
To By wjp post on 08.11.08 8:09 pm
This is the last time that I’m going to post on this subject. The left doesn’t want a strong military. Just listen to them. The liberals try to sell themselves as the party of the center,but when they are in power it is totally the opposite.
Example they cut our military to the bone.Example they have for the most part put their noses in the provinces business where it doesn’t belong. Just ask the premier of NFLD when he took down our Canadian flag in protest.
You can ask Quebecers how we nearly lost our country,because of the federal government meddling. Now you may disagree with that is fine I don’t care.
The liberal government all threw out the 90’s haven’t seen a social program that they didn’t like. One that pops-up is the gun registry debacle. If you don’t believe that the liberals under the leadership of Mr.Dion have gone left well that is your problem. There is absolutely nothing that I can say to you that will change your mind.
It’s been nice talking to you,but I will leave this conversation alone. I’m not going to go on forever with this left/right thing. You have your opinion I have mine. Let’s just end it period.
But none on using lawyers. Besides, they are easier to train, and no one cares what happens to them.
By Bill-Muskoka on 08.11.08 5:30 pm
Bill, I assume you are refering to Elizabeth May
You suck. Leasa
By Leasa on 08.11.08 9:25 pm
So Leasa is this a note to self?
For once I totally agree with you !
By barb the proofreader on 08.11.08 10:56 pm
Hi Barb, you are obviously getting under Leasa’s skin. BRAVO!!!! I guess the litte neoCon troll is getting frustrated by having to deal with facts and logic. Typically she has now resorted to vicious personal attacks on you. That is soooo predictable and soooo in keeping with the Harper style.
I appreciate your postings as many on this blog do. Keep up the great work!!! You are helping to keep Canadians informed and also helping to reveal the neoCon bots for what they are.
By barb the proofreader on 08.11.08 10:56 pm
I called you a liar because that’s what you did. Never have I used KPN’s name, once I posted under ‘for KPN’ which was a heartfelt note to her, which she did not appreciate at all btw. I have never posted under Ron p or any of the others. When I posted under Pytro, I made it clear I was doing so because of some lewd vicious postings he had made to me for no reason what so ever other than the fact I do not support the liberal party. As Garth said: we are worthless so any personal attacks toward us are fine in his book. Did you notice that I was right in the fact that Garth would not answer your question? AS for TS, there is no more a vicious person on this board than it. This thing attacked me the other day out of the blue, extremely mean-spirited and I did retaliate.
So, are you being honest that you are not associated with any Liberal MP? Okay, I will take your word for that. Now, one more question; do you, Gord, Man/hat, Pytro and TS all belong to the same play group?
Honestly, if you quit lying about me, you won’t have a problem.
Leasa
It’s been nice talking to you,but I will leave this conversation alone. I’m not going to go on forever with this left/right thing. You have your opinion I have mine. Let’s just end it period.
By The Right on 08.12.08 12:26 am
I can appreciate you want to end the discussion, usually when one ignores facts, one runs…I did mention the reason for the cuts in the 90s and if it hadn’t been for the conservative fiscal policy of Paul Martin, you CPC supporters wouldn’t have the vote buying funds you do today. I will agree there were many abuses of the taxpayers fund under the Liberal government. The fact that Danny Williams took the flag down means dick as he is also a proponent of voting ABC. As a former resident of the Province of Quebec, your take on the fact that the Liberal government was responsible for the separatist movement in Quebec is laughable. Your present government has found a way to appease them by buying them off…but they still want more and that will continue until Harper has no more to give them…and then we shall see who had the right stance on Quebec. The next federal election with the Bloc still firmly entreched in power in Quebec should tell you something.
Social programs are not a bad thing if they address the problems the country faces, for example, I am an advocate for being tough on crime but if that does not include good social programs to augment stiffer sentences, then you may as well throw Canada’s money out the window. One look south of our border should be proof enough.
I am not a Liberal, but I do stand up against Liberal bashing here. My preference would be for independent MPs for all of Canada based on population with a limit of 100 seats.
I reiterate, there is no left or right to define the policies of the two leading parties in Canada. You can find a policy to fit your view but overall they are migrating to the center to attract as many votes as possible.
Now the discussion has ended!!!
By barb the proofreader on 08.11.08 10:56 pm
Barb,
Very impressive. Your postings are honest , thorough and perceptive. Thanks to you and to the vigilance of others who have posted recently the evidence is clear.
Just as there is indisputable evidence that the pig farmer in B.C is guilty of murder there is now overwhelming evidence that the Leasa is guilty of lying.
Further, you are to be congratulated on the class with which you have fielded Leasa’s abuse. While you may only have proved that she is a liar, she, by her own responses, is again exposed as the hate filled, vicious, foul mouthed, hyper partisan hypocrite that she really is.
Regarding your other well thought out, thoroughly researched, informative and clearly expressed postings, keep up the good work.
I would be flattered if Leasa, in her desperation, accuses me of posting under your name.
Democracy is relatively new on the scene with a large portion of the world yet to understand.
By Jackie’s Hand on 08.11.08 11:13 pm
Really ? Democracy in one form or another has been around since the mid- fifth century BC .
Hardly a new comer .
Democracy in one form or another has been around since the mid- fifth century BC .
Hardly a new comer .
By Men With Hats on 08.12.08 1:40 pm
Democracy was practiced in India long before the Greeks had it but then against the time span of family and the ensuing institutions, yes, it`s very new, hardly a global institution,, yet.
Democracy was practiced in India long before the Greeks had it but then against the time span of family and the ensuing institutions, yes, it`s very new, hardly a global institution,, yet.
By buddy, spare a dime? on 08.12.08 2:39 pm
Rope. And your point is ?
Rope. And your point is ?
By Men With Hats on 08.12.08 6:08 pm
Capitalism, the new word for Democracy.
By Molly on 08.11.08 10:42 pm
I certainly understand democracy is being subverted
Jackie’s Hand on 08.11.08 11:13 pm
By Leasa on 08.12.08 7:53 am
There is no use attempting to ‘thrust and parry’ with this bunch of hate-filled nasties …. just ‘thrust’ and watch them skewer themselves on their own wretched rusty nails…LOL
this bunch of hate-filled nasties …. just ‘thrust’ and watch them skewer themselves on their own wretched rusty nails…LOL
By HARRY S on 08.13.08 3:25 pm
I always wondered what you were drinking, now I need to know what brands you use in your rusty nails! Do they change how your eye prescription works?
ie. What color of tint occurs in your glasses after consuming a few? And at what Warp Speed do you fly at?
BY LEASA ON 08.12.08 7:53 AM
In answer to your above questions I just noticed, yours in italic:
I have never posted under Ron p or any of the others
Yes you have. I’ll put the proof about Ron P below, but for now, you admit:
“When I posted under Pytro” – so there you have admit that part, plus the other postings here and on other threads with all the indisputable proof.
So, are you being honest that you are not associated with any Liberal MP?
Honest. But people like you have made me decide that I’m going to help out locally.
Okay, I will take your word for that. Now, one more question; do you, Gord, Man/hat, Pytro and TS all belong to the same play group?
No, and that’s a leading question implying something, but I find their comments are fun hearted.
Honestly, if you quit lying about me, you won’t have a problem.
I’m not lying about you, so you quit.
Leasa, even I can see that the hate being spewed from the top, that’s right, by Mr. Harper, is outrageous. Harper is following a campaign tactic that worked in the U.S. and goes back to some books and philosophies he and his mates think are a good ideas, but they are very wrong, and their tactics stink. He is misleading. He is mean. He is dishonest. He has caused this agreesive political behaviour and his group has outlined that they are doing it on purpose, and that’s gross.
I think the boyz here, to whom you refer, are within their rights to be upset. They have noticed some of your misdeeds such as posing under different names and posting incorrect info, not to mention your language. You made yourself fair game. They are not being as bad as what is seen from Harper’s people. Just my opinion, but if you could see the view from everyone who is not The Reform Party, you’d understand. I brought your follies to KPN’s attention because she had mentioned she had been away, so when she found her name attributed to a statement she had not made, I directed her to that proof with a joke and mention of the earlier posts. I wanted KPN to go back and see those so she too could be on guard.
We can pack this in after I post how you DID make up a quote and attribute it to Ron P. The quote never existed, you typed it, it was under your moniker.
After this, quit trying to call me a liar.
I’ll lay it out for you, and it’ll be a little easier for Garth to examine..
The part you attribute to Ron was never typed by anyone, except you. The entire next post is a fabrication:
By I believe in Canada on 07.29.08 9:42 pm
Hey there IBIC, that was not Mr. Harper that said he would not live in Stornoway. Please check your facts.
By Ron p on 07.29.08 10:03 pm
Ron, I haven’t a clue as to what you are talking about.
Leasa
BY LEASA ON 07.30.08 7:24 AM
I don’t know why you bothered, but you did make that whole thing up and assigned a non-existent line to Ron.
Putting other people’s name to a comment in any form is deceitful and therefore a lie. But the way you did it this time is even sneakier.
So I’ll bring it to Garth’s attention that you’ve done that, now that you’ve pushed the point and denied it so many times.
it just shows the liberal arrogance that garth would atack someone for speaking freely on an issue they feel strongly about…nice misinformation… nice political attack piece…hope you are damned to political annihilation…