Abandoned condo tower site in Vancouver.
Listen to Garth’s interview on the financial turmoil, here.
Funny days, these. The dollar falls three cents one day and climbs four the next. The TSX is down 700 points, only to climb nine hundred two days later. The government gets elected saying no deficit and two weeks later there is one. There’s a credit crisis and yet interest rates look like they’re headed for zero.
RRSPs, pensions, nesteggs – they’ve all been violated. Corporations are whining for federal bailouts and saying they can’t afford pensions for retired workers. Unemployment’s rising and consumer confidence is plunging.
Strange times. Deflation is the big story now – falling retail prices, crumbling house prices, cheap cars and Christmas sales in October. But in times to come, it will be inflation – since governments are spending billions they don’t have but will be looking for down the road. Higher taxes, increased money supply, less purchasing power.
The Fed threw another log on the fires of distant inflation Wednesday, cutting interest rates yet again, and taking its key rate down to just 1%. This is scary. You might remember Japan did exactly the same over a decade ago when its real estate market went to hell, forcing interest rates to hit 0% as the government tried to prime the pump. Didn’t work, though. Japanese house prices stayed in the shark fin soup for 15 years, recovered a little and have recently crashed again. An apartment in Tokyo that was $1 million US in 1985 is today worth less than $480,000.
But in Canada, we’ve been told by the prime minister and other less notables, it’s all different. We’re an island of stability. A rock. Northern star. Canadian Shield (not, that’s not a condom).
Maybe not so much.
Close to two years ago I said our real estate market was poised to fall. Said it again in a book six months ago. Now it’s here. This is vitally important because – as in the United States – this is the thing you should most fear. Not the stock market. Not the currency. Not energy costs. Houses.
Residential real estate accounts for almost 85% of all family net worth. Meanwhile the Canadian savings rate – as in the US – is now zero. Once home values start to slide, nothing has more of an impact on consumer confidence and concern about financial well-being. Since house prices rose by more than 73% in the past decade (about the same as the US in the years following Nine Eleven), mortgage debt has exploded. After all, household incomes have barely budged, so pricier houses simply mean more borrowing.
So, never before have we (a) saved nothing, (b) had so much of our wealth in one asset, (c) owed so damn much or (d) shown such appalling financial planning, with a total lack of diversification, as now. It was obvious when the average price of a home exceeded the ability of the average family to buy it, the market was over-valued. It would have corrected harmlessly, had it not been for the geniuses who invented subprimes in the US and 0/40 mortgages here. The boom became a bubble, and now a bust.
It was real estate, after all – not Wall Street, hedge funds or the greedy twits who ran Lehmans or Bear Stearns – that created the mess in America. The middle class there is being dealt a body blow and it seems we’re destined to be smacked in the same fashion.
Officially, home prices have fallen just over 6% nationally in the past year. But that number’s misleading. In Toronto, they’re down 15% from the peak, and an equal amount in Edmonton and Vancouver. Condo projects are being cancelled all over everywhere while home sellers now wait months for an offer and realtors play with their Berries during clientless open houses.
Listings have hit a high point, and sales are off 50% in BC, 43% in Muskoka, 70% in Leaside and by half in Kelowna. Spooked by the times, and rightly so, buyers are staying home in drives, knowing prices will be lower in January than they are now.
There is no option but for the Canadian government to push for lower interest rates, bring in an income tax cut and throw more billions we apparently don’t have at the Bay Street lenders. If that were to happen immediately, in an economic statement, it might help some to keep the real estate melt from becoming a meltdown.
But don’t hold your breath. It’s different here. You’ll see.
275 comments ↓
I hear ya, Garth … and now that you are only a bystander your objective assessment of the economic situation is appreciated.
Now, could you also comment on the looming collapse of the Big Three US car companies who are asking the US government for Billion$$$$ to keep them afloat and to help them merge too?
I believe that the US government will bail out the Detroit car companies, and Obama has indicated he wants “Fair Trade” from the Asians. He also wants to modify NAFTA, to the advantage of the USA no doubt. Obama is beholden to the big US unions and Michigan is 100% for Obama.
If the US government provides the Detroit Big 3 with the money they are demanding, will the Canadian government be forced to provide matching funds to the Canadian branch plant operation so they will stay in Canada??
Here’s the problem as I see it. Since it now appears Obama will be the next president, and he has indicated he will bring back jobs to the USA, should we in Canada fear that a president Obama will force the Detroit Big 3 to close down their Canadians, and Mexican, operations and bring those jobs back to the USA?
If that is in all likelihood to happen, wouldn’t it be inappropriate to give these US companies Canadian taxpayer’s money to stay in Canada, when we know they could just shut down the Canadian factories and run away with the Billion$$$ given by the Canadian government??? It’s happened before …!!!
Garth … what is your opinion on subsidizing US car company operations in Canada in the current and developing situation???
(p.s. I don’t think this is an off-topic issue since it will have a bearing on Canadian real estate too. Thanks.)
That was discussed yesteray. Try to keep up. — Garth
Oh gee that was informative.
Lets see now, raise the gst 5% and basic personal deductions on income tax the equivelent amount might help most people. But wait, that would be admitting that the government screwed up big time over the last couple of years. It takes a lot bigger man then anyone on the con side has to admit a mistake and fix it to help as many people as possible avoid losing everything like in the country south of us.
Deflation is an industry slayer. Its a pity “paradigm shift” is out of vogue in the corporatespeak circles, particularly since this time around its use would actually be appropriate.
There’s a lot less twinkling eyes out of the members of our government of the day now the free ride is over.
“simply mean(s) more borrowing”; “to push for lower interest rates”; “Northern star” (don’t you mean Northern Rock, a strong, fine and possibly broke UK bank?); and a repeat heading from the late ’80s, “What To Fear — Abandoned condo tower site in Vancouver” (‘tho we lived in Trawnnna then, with the Maple Sausages — always got burnt).
Neither a borrower nor lender be. Period. No exceptions. If I can’t afford it, I can’t have it.
Most folk probably wouldn’t understand that concept, so there’s always another lifecycle after this one ends. They may not learn then, either.
Interest rates can’t go below zero per cent, can they? If they can, who gets the negative interest?
***************************************
Colin Powell says — quite clearly — there will be a “surprise” next Jan. 21 or 22nd about halfway thru the clip.
What does he know that the rest of us don’t? Doesn’t the new President take over on Jan. 20?
dubya only has a short time in office now; see how much damage he could inflict upon the world, under the guise of “freedom” and “terror”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LDBOPcHpeo
****************************************
Don’t think Uncle Sam was expecting this to happen so quickly.
BTW, remember the massive ‘quake China had recently? Now Pakistan has a biggie. Several govts. don’t like dubya’s wackos, so these are the consequences they suffer.
http://tinyurl.com/5agjhq
Thanks for the insights, Garth. I sent a link to you blog to two people this morning–my investment advisor and my son-in-law, who is a mortgage broker.
I’ve been reading your blog for over two years now. Two years ago you predicted house prices would fall. I told my husband, and my son-in-law then that now was the time to sell our house. No one believed me (or you, rather). I did. Your posts always have a ring of truth to them, and besides, what’s in it for you to ring the warning bells?
So now we are stuck in a house we can’t afford, and my husband’s pension might be in jeopardy? And him without a job, and a slim chance of getting one at his age?
For those of you who have been heckling Garth about what he would do if he were the Minister of Finance–now you know.
Now, let’s wait and see what the Harper government comes up with. Like Garth said, we reap what we sow. Hard times are a’comin!
Snow on the ground yet the real estate for sale pages are as full as ever in my small town. And Flaherty says we don’t have the same problem as the US. Matter of degrees, oh financial leader.
To-day’s Lesson in Real Political Science 101 –
The Law of Electoral Denial:
Konrad Yakabuski,
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081030.RYAKABUSKI30/TPStory/National
There is no option but for the Canadian government to push for lower interest rates, bring in an income tax cut and throw more billions we apparently don’t have at the Bay Street lenders. If that were to happen immediately, in an economic statement, it might help some to keep the real estate melt from becoming a meltdown.
posted by Garth Turner on 10.29.08 @ 10:17 pm,
What I don’t understand is why some people this think this might work. There might be a temporary inflation of the housing market, which would once again inflate prices, but would not be even an intermediate term fix.
People need to start paying down debt not taking on more. Those controlled by ideology, however, can only see one thing: inflating the GDP.
Part of the reason that the U.S. has been so committed to its system of health care is that it is a huge segment of the GDP (20 per cent) and it appears that growth in that sector, along with the financial sector and housing, has been fueling GDP growth as manufacturing moved out.
While the housing issue is a part of the problem it is only part of the big picture, as western society moves from the liberal democratic form of capitalism to corporatism.
By HARRY S on 10.29.08 11:00 pm
You have a point about Obama bailing out the Detroit auto’s and possibly making it a condition that they retrench back to Detroit.
But, it won’t happen. Why?
1. The NA. plants are still geared up for the big gas guzzlers; bailing them out will just delay the inevitable;
2. Ford and GM are no longer US. companies, but multinationals and are starting to import more fuel efficient vehicles (funny how we don’t here too many complaints about the made in Germany Saturn(NA)/Vauxhall(UK)/Opel(Europe) Astra as opposed to the Japanesse/Korean imports!). So is Obama going to tell them to shut down their overseas plants as well?
3. Its election time. Lots of promises. Bottom line, the CEO’s will do what’s best for their bottom line, not what Obama tells them to. For a President to force a non-government body to do such is just plain non-American.
For the Canadian plants of these companies to remain competative, the CAW is going to have to allow two tier wages as the UAW have in the US. I find it hypocritical of the CAW to say they won’t allow this, when CAW contracts at
tier-one suppliers already include two tier wages. (Four legs good, two legs bad!)
My house has been listed for over 3 weeks and we’ve had one viewing. Lucky for me I’m only moving to make my commute shorter so there’s no pressure to get out of my house any time soon. Hopefully I will stay employed so that I never have that pressure.
“It was obvious when the average price of a home exceeded the ability of the average family to buy it, the market was over-valued. It would have corrected harmlessly, had it not been for the geniuses who invented subprimes in the US and 0/40 mortgages here.”
Hi Garth, I like to read your blog since you are consistent… this is… consistently wrong. Allow me to clarify:
1 – The marekt was overvalued when the AVERAGE RATE of increase in house prices overtook the GDP RATE. With a FEW exceptions (mostly due to local aberrations) the AVERAGE Real Estate price has NO REASON WHATSOEVER to grow faster than the GDP.
2 – It was NOT a subprime or a 40/0 issue. It was E-Z money that the Central Banks pumped since 2000-ish. It was FIAT money created from thin air that fueled the “creative” practices of subprimes, CDO’s and 40/0 lunacy. These are only the CONSEQUENCES of half-assed economic policies and Monetarism.
Now, for a REAL insight, if you take a look at how much E-Z money was pumped internationally since 2000-ish you will discover that although US had been a sinner, JAPAN was a genocide by contrast. Most people blame Greenspan, howver, data shows otherwise. The GREAT sin here is NOT that our geniouses in the Central Banks don’t have a clue what it is that they are doing, the sine is that Central Banking should be outright abolished because, BY FAR AND LONG, it creates much, much more troubles that it solves. Actually, it solves NOTHING!
Nice conspiracy, but go back to worrying about what’s under the bed. Residential real estate is a consumer-driven commodity, affected primarily by tolerance for debt, access to debt and the ability to service debt. This is a classic case of asset inflation, and the inevitable consequences. — Garth
And, let me get you one further. Answer me these two simple questions:
1 – WHO is the owner of the Central Bank of Canada
2 – HOW transparent is the Central Bank of Canada
Hint: there is ONE piece of legistlation that contains boths answers.
Hi Mr. Garth turner, FYI anyone,
If you don’t know about the newest good science regarding the facts and BAD health effects of drinking the fluoride that is being added to our drinking water supply, goto
http://www.fluoridealert.org/
to find links to the good newest science information!
Here are some high ligts that you can find at link above;
• NEW: Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment (CAPE) comes out against fluoridation (see FAN press release)
• Oct 1, 2008: Are we poisoning our babies and children with fluoride?
• Sept 22, 2008: Fluoridation? World expert says ‘It’s an American crackpot idea from the ’50s’
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Find out for you and your families health! Tell your local government to STOP adding this industrial toxic waste to your drinking water NOW!
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Hi By Required on 10.30.08 9:06 am,
I just like to also mention, FYI;
I found out this past year when talking to a woman(retaired) that once worked at the world bank, that the past two PM were sitting on the Board.
“And, let me get you one further. Answer me these two simple questions:
1 – WHO is the owner of the Central Bank of Canada
2 – HOW transparent is the Central Bank of Canada
Hint: there is ONE piece of legistlation that contains boths answers.”
The Illuminati Bill?
That was discussed yesteray. Try to keep up. — Garth
By HARRY S on 10.29.08 11:00 pm
…………………………………..
Yes this topic was partially discussed in the previous topic, but my question introduces the issue of an Obama presidency attacking Canada to bring the auto jobs back to the USA. Another issue is the Harper government refusing to bail out the Canadian operations of the US carmakers with Billion$$$ subsidies .. and the US car companies using this as an excuse to shut down Canadian operations.
We know that Liberals openly support Obama on a philosophical basis, but what happens when an Obama presidency forces the shutdown of Ontario car factories and bringing the jobs back to the USA ..??!!!
House prices will most certainly tank if the Ontario auto industry is destroyed by an Obama presidency.
This just in…American Express, hammered by the credit crisis, says it will slash 7,000 jobs as part of a drastic cost-cutting initiative.
http://www.thecomingdepression.blogspot.com
Telling that Garth is now attracting the fluoride mind-control crowd. Soon Garth’s rabid fanbase will consist of truthers (tell us that 9/11 was an inside job, Garth!)
Real estate falling is a function of mortgage rates. This isn’t rocket science, and your continual claim that you’re some sort of prophet for stating the obvious is a little bit hilarious. Until the credit market regains confidence and eases up, mortgage rates will continue to remain bizarrely high relative to the central rates. Being actually in the industry, and not just some blowhard pontificating gloom and doom, I can say that credit markets *are* starting to thaw thankfully.
Actually, mortgage rates have been at a generational low level for a decade. The size of the debt, not just the rate, determines the cost of that debt. This, in turn, influences consumer attitudes along with a myriad of other factors. At this moment it has become clear the cost of most real estate exceeds the benefit. If the housing melt was so evident earlier, why was I alone in identifying it in Canada? Where were you? Finally, does attacking some people who post on this open forum make you feel superior? Pathetic. — Garth
“Nice conspiracy, but go back to worrying about what’s under the bed. Residential real estate is a consumer-driven commodity, affected primarily by tolerance for debt, access to debt and the ability to service debt. This is a classic case of asset inflation, and the inevitable consequences. — Garth”
See, there you go agin, Garth. If you do not know the root cause of the problem, you can hardly address it. My posting is NOT a conspiracy theory. Just check the numbers by yourself. Go the the OECD website. They are all there… if you know what to look for.
Furthermore, “tolerance for debt, access to debt and the ability to service debt” are ALL dependent upon interest rates. And WHO controls interest rates? The Central Bank. How? through “liquidity” mechanisms. So, NO, again, it is NOT a theory. It is a fact. Then again, you are not an Austrian economic theory versed person. Why should you know?
Now, moving on, what most people do not realized is that, oversimplifying, housing was simply a bubble created by E-Z money whit no place to go. NOW, the same geniouses are trying to solve the problem creating MORE E-Z money. Do you know what is going to happen? We will have inflation AND deflation (this in the short term – yes it is possible to have both at the same time, just in different assets) however, the NEXT bubble of SOMETHING is being created NOW. Ten or so years from now, when the next uber-bubble bursts, remember, I TOLD YOU SO.
Funny enough, all these Central Banks types ALLWAYS have the same solution for ANY problem: INFLATE.
I say, replace fiat money with SOUND money (based on something, ANYTHING the goverment can’t control aka inflate) AND abolish the Central Bank.
PRESTO! Economic stability.
Of course, it will never happen since ALL politicians LOVE to spend. Now, since they can’t spend what they don’t have, they are severely biased towards a mechanism that creates money they don’t actually have. This is, the fractional reserve system, aka Central Banking.
Central Banking is NOT the solution. It is the ROOT CAUSE of the problem… this is…. with the exception those who are in denial.
By Required on 10.30.08 9:04 am,
The problem may not be with the concept of central banking but with the ideology that captured the central banking system. That ideology failed to provide the structure which would ensure that all involved acted within acceptable parameters because it operates on behalf of the financial community and not the community at large.
There has always been a question as to whether the central banks should have a regulatory function. In essence, their primary policy function has been reduced to setting interest rates and facilitating capital flows.
Whether the regulatory function should be part of the central banks mandate or whether there should be a separate body mandated with that function is a valid question.
Returning to a “law of the jungle” in financial transactions, as history has indicated, would not solve any of the current problems.
Oh, and my question about the BoC?
Simple, check: Bank of Canada Act ( R.S., 1985, c. B-2 )
Answers:
1 – Her Majesty in Right of Canada
2 – It is a SECRET organization
Now, for those still retaining some illusions, how does it feel to live in a so-called “country” where the Central Bank belongs to the head of Government of a FOREGEING power and the actions of the Central Bank are SECRET?
Garth,
Interesting that you mention what Japan went through. I was just thinking about that yesterday as we we driving in T.O..
There be lessons to learn for sure, but will Oddawahaha even consider those lessons? America has not it would seem.
Oh, and Thank God their election is NEXT TUESDAY! I am so sick of McCain’s devious lies and smirks I can’t take it anymore. That Old Toad should crawl back under his rock and disappear along with his ‘Hockey Mom’ moronic VP partner.
I will be rejoicing to see Obama win with the largest LANDSLIDE in American history.
By Dennis Forbes on 10.30.08 10:33 am,
In my opinion, much of the problem relates to the impact of globalization on real incomes. Because the median income has been deflated by globalization, in order to keep GDP growing, credit was opened up.
Too much credit and debt is the symptom of the larger problem for the domestic economy: globalization.
I was just thinking about that yesterday as we we driving in T.O..
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.30.08 11:07 am
I’ve driven in T.O., and very few people there do any thinking while driving. Booyah! I’ll be here all week.
>Actually, mortgage rates have been at a generational low level for a decade.
Most variable rates have gone from 3% to North of 6%. The rise of rates has been in lockstep with the volatility of home prices.
>The size of the debt, not just the rate, determines the cost of that debt. This, in turn, influences consumer
Yes, of course Garth. Yet at the outset of a normal mortgage people are paying over 75% interest. When that interest is doubled or trebled, the outcome is pretty obvious.
>why was I alone in identifying it in Canada?
Do you really think this?
>Finally, does attacking some people who post on this open forum make you feel superior? Pathetic. — Garth
Yes, absolutely Garth. Given your snide little replies to many comments, clearly you enjoy it yourself, so save the high road for someone who deserves it.
I will be rejoicing to see Obama win with the largest LANDSLIDE in American history.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.30.08 11:07 am
Hear ! Hear !
I do not know if ‘REQUIRED’ is deserving of my support or not. While I am not going to agree with his/her tone or the accuracy of the details given, I will support him/her on the much larger issue. ‘REQUIRED’ is in the right ballpark along with me and many others who are aware that there is a shadow government that I call the Illuminati/Synarchist Movement that controls most of the governments on Planet Earth. This shadow government controls the International Banking Cartel led by the Rothschild Family. This Cartel controls the Central Banks, the World Bank, the IMF and most other World Institutions.
At this point in time, it appears that Russia, China and India may not be under their direct control. The issue of who controls Japan is fuzzy, since it appears that the Japanese Yakuza may be the ones in control.
An example of how this Cartel operates is their Gold Cartel. For many years they suppressed the price of Gold Bullion under US$300. About 5 years ago, they seem to have lost some of this control and the price of Gold began rising to a point where it went over US$1000 for a short time. However they still have the ability to affect the price of Gold and Silver ETFs on the COMEX. However, if you want to buy real Gold and Silver you will have to pay a much higher price than the COMEX spot price, provided that you can even find some to buy. The price has been driven down on the COMEX but there is a shortage of physical product. Does this make sense in a free market system?
Problem > Reaction > Solution
The problem we currently have is being called a Global Financial Crisis. Here are some of the solutions that are being put forth: some type of Global Governance, a Global Monetary System, a Global Currency, a new form of Bretton Woods System.
All of these solutions are just what the New World Order and One World Government agents have been working for. The way things are going, we could have the New World Order before we have the North American Union.
For some useful background info, download the Bretton Woods System from Wikipedia. Also, I still recommend reading George Ure’s Website [ http://www.urbansurvival.com/week.htm ]
Now that it is beginning to look like there will not be a major collapse in October, it seems like the summer of 2009 is the next target time period. That means that until then the stock market will be like a roller coaster with a variety of ups and downs including some sucker rallies. Long-term investors like ‘TS’ should stay out of this stock market situation. Only traders who can be in and out of a position in an hour should be operating in this type of volatile situation.
On the Dow 30, some down targets to be tested are 7200 and 5800. One person who follows the Elliott Wave concept did some major calculations and came up with a low of 777 for the Dow and 100 for the S&P 500. We will just have to wait and see who is correct.
The Japanese Yen is currently the strongest currency, followed by the American Dollar. Why is this? Does it make sense? The American Dollar was supposedly going to be collapsed so that The Powers That Be could move to a Cashless Society using a Digital form of Currency.
The biggest threat to our current Fiat Currency system is the LARGE bubble called DERIVATIVES. There is not enough money in the world to fulfill these various contracts. Furthermore, many of these contracts are no better than Monopoly Money. The quickest way to eliminate this problem is to wipe out these contracts as if they did not exist. The problems that would result from this wipe out would be minor compared to trying to unwind these contracts in a more meaningful way.
In a Fiat Currency system, consumer confidence is required to make this monetary system work. This means that “currency” is the primary problem that we have to worry about, not “houses”. Sometime in the near future, we may have to resort to “barter” for those of you who still have something worth bartering with. Instead of removing people from houses they can not afford, we may have to put two or three families into some of these houses. We may also have to turn some houses into rooming houses with many people sleeping in the basement. It all depends on whether we have to put up with a severe recession or a Depression.
This issue is much too complex to discuss in this forum, so I suggest that those of you who are interested can find all they need to know on the Internet. You just have to learn to be discerning about what you read.
Cheers.
I see that we have the cabinet we need for turbulent times: lots of Ministers of Regional Political Representation and Pork-barrelling.
Hi Dennis Forbes on 10.30.08 10:33 am,
Don’t you recall we were told DDT was safe, and remember the Doctors that promoted sustain brands of cigarettes. They also gave us nuclear weapons.
You should go and actually look at the newest good science regarding the fluoride issue before you start to attack the messenger. You will be informed with facts instead of option and miss information from the dental association.
I have, and I also made the effort to attend the world fluoride conference, It’s effect on the brain and soft tissues of the body, this past Aug at University of Toronto.
You will be informed with facts, the newest good science, instead of just option.
To find the links too the newest good science. About the toxic effects of drinking fluoride in the water on your body;
http://www.fluoridealert.org/
In case you mist it or were one of the unfortunate infants given water with fluoride added. to it, it will lower your IQ permanently!
Also do you get the free flue shoot?
It has a preservative called thimerosal.
Thimerosal contains approximately 49% ethylmercury.
Mercury is a Nero-toxin. If you put the same amount into a fish it would be considered unsafe to eat. Why are we injecting this into our blood and our kids blood???
It also bio-accumulates in you.
Each dose (0.5 mL) contains three strains of influenza virus. Nonmedicinal ingredients: hemagglutinin, thimerosal, gelatin, sodium phosphate-buffered, and isotonic sodium chloride solution. The vaccine may contain small amounts of formaldehyde, sucrose, and Triton X-100.
Formaldehyde is a carcinogen.
If you go to youtube and look up
‘kennedy vaccines’ you get
Robert Kennedy talks about the cover up regarding vaccines and Autism. In June 2000, a group of top government scientists and health officials gathered for a meeting at….
Robert Kennedy on the Vaccine Autism Coverup. 7 1/2 min. video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIM2hwrLoc
I have no idea if Garth has look at the http://www.fluoridealert.org site.
or even the 911 was an inside job web sites, or believes any of it.
(What do you know about building 11?)
But Garth does have this open blog, and persons like me happen to post stuff.
I’m trying to help people keep them selves healthy by giving them links to knowledge.
The stuff they don’t want you to know about.
You don’t need to believe what I say.
I’ll repeat this because it seems to apply to a lot of things.
‘belief in myth avoids the discomfort of thought.’
Harpo has lost all power to threaten confidence votes .
This new cabinet will be gone the ,very,first bill they bring before Parliament .
All the opposition has to do is threaten a coalition and POOF ! no more bill,no more Con-clown government .
Buh,bye ! stiffs .
“The problem may not be with the concept of central banking but with the ideology that captured the central banking system. ”
By C. B. Innes on 10.30.08 10:45 am
Sorry Innes, but you don’t seem to have a clue what you are talking about. The problem IS the fractional reserve system WHICH is personified in the Central Banking.
It does not matter which “ideology” a Central Bank has, a Central Bank is ALLWAYS based on a fractional reserve system. Such a system demands a “central authority” (what a joke) to “manage” it. Such an authority will allways screw up no matter what. Do you know why? Simple:
1 – They are amendable to political will, which is not based on physical laws and/or common sense.
2 – They try to fix interest rates (aka MARKET RISK) better than the Market itslef!!! What a joke to believe that a bureucrat sitting in a room can do a better job than BILLIONS of people participating in a market and discovering, transaction by transaction, what is the approppriate riks level (aka interest rate)is.
Furthermore, regulation AND Central Banking have NOTHING TO DO with each other. In a better world (without being theoretical) the government (Parliament) regulates aka decides, under which financial conditions a transaction is valid. We DO NOT need a Central Bank to do so.
Once those conditions are satisfied, any further conditions become simply a contract. To settle contractual disputes, we need an independent Judiciary. Please note that again, we do NOT NEED a Central Bank to do so.
What we need is the Government OUT of OUR money. You CANNOT HAVE sound money (i.e. non-fiat) AND a Central Bank. They are mutually exclusive.
The very concept that the market needs “management” is ludicrous.
What the market needs is regulations, sure, a modicum of them and a way to enforce such regulation, and, more importantly, contracts. This is MOST DEFINITIVELY NOT Central’s Bank role.
Lastly, if you bother looking at history of economics you will find out, much to your surprise, that a return to the “law of the jungle” ONLY happened during times when fiat money was debased by Governments. This is true going back as far as written human history exists. There are plenty of examples even from 2000+ years ago, starting with the Romans!!!
However, when the economy was based on sound money, there were NEVER, EVER, returns to the “law of the jungle”. NO SUCH THING.
Do you know why? Simple. It is called arbitrage and moral hazard.
In a TRUE free market, you are wrong, you are out of business. You have a lousy product, a different company makes a better one. TWO simple rules but they DO work. Hence, NO “law of the jungle” is possible. Now, do notice that it is NOT necessary that a market be “efficient”. It is only neccessary for it to be truly free. There are no second chances or bail-outs.
People believe that through regulation it is possible to eliminate risk. WHAT A JOKE!!!
The MOST IMPORTANT feature of a free market is that it operates in REAL LIFE condition which DEPENDS on risk. A truly free market is nothing more than a Darwinian machine for economic ideas. Only the fittest survive.
All we need to do is to enforce the minimum set of rules.
All we need to do to screw-it-up is to enforce artificial rules such as the fixing of interest rates.
None of this is possible in a “managed” economy.
People believe that recessions are bad and need to be banned. WHAT A NONSENSE!!! Recessions are nothign more than cleaning mechanisms for lousy economic ideas.
What needs to be banned are the mechanisms that make such recessions debacles!! The largest such mechanism BUY AS MUCH AS A LIGHT YEAR is the creation of E-Z money or just money out of thin air.
THE WHOLE POINT of a free market is that there will be business cycles, BUT, the recessionary times shall be short and shallow. When the world operated on the Gold standard WITHOUT the intervention of Governments, the “recessions” (if you can call them that) lasted 1 to 3 months tops and the drop in prices was less than 10%. NOW? Now that we are managed? Well, they last between 3 to 18 MONTHS, if you are lucky and the drop is, on average, 40%.
Bottom line? Gimme a SOUND MONEY STANDARD and DEMOLISH THE CENTRAL BAND any day of the week, twice on hollydays.
I will be rejoicing to see Obama win with the largest LANDSLIDE in American history.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.30.08 11:07 am
Hear ! Hear !
By Men With Hats on 10.30.08 1:29 pm
Give the two choices, I’d perfer Obama.
The Democates I think are the lesses of two evils.
I’m not holding my breath on Oboma winning, since the USA is using the trully evil eletronic voting machines!
But we will see soon enough.
By Dennis Forbes on 10.30.08 10:33 am
And what, pray tell, was the initial trigger of the credit crisis in the US?
With mortgage rates at all time lows, people were taking out larger and larger mortgages, pushing up real estate proces. Even people with no income, no jobs and no assets, thanks to legislation, could afford mortgages at these low rates.
Unfortunately rates started to rise, not by much 0.5 to 1 per cent, and that was enough, on variable rate mortages, to put many over the edge in not being able to pay the mortgage.
And then the cards came a tumblin’ down….
Bill-Muskoka (not anymore)
Please edify. Bill-Muskoka, what is meant by (not anymore)?
I will be rejoicing to see Obama win with the largest LANDSLIDE in American history.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.30.08 11:07 am
Hear ! Hear !
By Men With Hats on 10.30.08 1:29 pm
I’ll third that.
As a conservative, I, and many of my political lean, greatly look forward to Obama winning. He represents true conservative values (perhaps a little too much. He and his party lay quite a bit to the right of even Harper’s crew), unlike the spend to exhaustion Republicans. And I fully expect that Harper and Obama will get along gangbusters.
Bill-Muskoka (not anymore)
Please edify. Bill-Muskoka, what is meant by (not anymore)?
By Brent Fullard on 10.30.08 2:01 pm
I’ll answer if you don’t mind .
Some Chiquita stole most of Bills name by identifying herself as Muskoka Jill.
Hence the (not anymore ) disclaimer .
Hi Garth,
You say “Meanwhile the Canadian savings rate – as in the US – is now zero.” yet we are lowering the interest rate to save the economy. If we want to increase people saving, wouldn’t we want to increase the interest rate to provide people with a better rate of return on their savings? What am I missing?
As you point out, interest rates were at historic lows for some time and people didn’t save anything because they figured they were building equity in their homes (essentially they weren’t diversifying their portfolios). They had no pressures on spending, because easy, inexpensive credit was there. Is the low interest rate not responsible for this irresponsible behaviour?
Hi Mr. Garth Turner,
Re: the government/MP swearing in oath.
I just watch some of it on CPAC. (Rerun from earlier today.)
Why aren’t the people that asked us for our vote, so they could become an MP to represent us in the government,
Why aren’t they swearing ‘allegiance’ to the People of Canada and the PM?
But instead swearing to keep secrets and allegiance to the Queen!
Who is the Canadian Government and our MP’s really working for????
(Might it actually be the people behind the curtains, the party back roomers/the bankers/NOW/Illuminati people?)
It doesn’t look like it’s the Canadian People, you and me, but actually the Queen.
Maybe all the people how didn’t vote already knows this, so why bother!
Does anyone have any idea as to how we can correct this BIG problem of who the MP’s swear allegiance too?
(Shouldn’t it be the people, not the Queen.)
Could a person elected still get to be an MP, and get paid, even if they refused to swear allegiance to the queen? Or modified the allegiance oath?
Garth?
What did you do, say and/or think about the oath when you got elected the last couple times?
There’s an awful feeling hanging in the air at the moment, like the stunned silence after a disaster. No one knows exactly what happened, who survived and what comes next.
One explanation for the rising U.S. dollar is that people are temporarily parking their money in it as reserve currency until they can see which way this thing is going. (Down, I’d say.) Russia and China have already held meetings to discuss doing direct dealings with each other in their own currencies.
The U.S. dollar value can’t hold. It has nothing behind it and the country is in massive debt. They can’t do another war spending deal as in WW2. They’re already at war, have been pretty well constantly since 1945 and are broke as a result. Once the U.S. was off the gold standard, there was nothing to back it. It’s an empty promise printed on green paper.
The nice little house around here with the “For Sale” sign and the Con lawn sign before the election? The Con sign is gone. The “For Sale” sign is still there. Across the street, a 70’s style bungalow, always beautifully maintained and cared for, is still for sale after several months. It even has a maintainence contract thrown in. No buyers.
Meanwhile, the circus to the south goes on. Democracy Now (vidcast and podcast) yesterday was about upcoming voting problems (hacked machines, registration list disasters, long line-ups, etc.). Terrifying.
The second part was about how Palin was really chosen – by a bunch of Washington insiders! (Wow. Didn’t see THAT coming.) Good description of types like the loathsome William Kristol being led around by his appendage (metaphorically speaking, of course) by the former beauty queen.
The Palin bit is here.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/29/jane_mayer_on_the_insiders_how
She could be running the country soon. How’s that as a scary though for Hallowe’en?
And a last bit of McCain info – a truly loathsome man. (Scroll down for the story. The site is on its fundraising drive at the moment.)
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn10302008.html
As for Obama, he’ll have way too much on his plate to pay much attention to Canada, which will probably be to our benefit.
The Repubs and other Neo-cons were Harper’s idols when he was first elected. What happens in the U.S. usually happens in Canada about two years down the road. Just too damn depressing.
I guess most know that American Express is cutting 7,000 jobs and freezing bosses’ pay and perks.
At the same time, ExxonMobil announced record profits of $14.83 bln., along with BP’s record profits reported yesterday or the day before.
Sarah Palin is already making noises about 2012, and this election isn’t even over yet.
Syria is mighty pissed at the US about their continual interference in things which are none of their business.
The interference may stem from Syria’s cozying up to Russia, which, I understand will build two nuke power plants there.
China will also build two of the same in Pakistan, so it becomes easy to understand why the US is becoming an outcast.
Most folk generally do not like bullies and thugs, and that is what dubya and fellow funnymennalists are — they have long since worn out their welcome, and are free to go, preferably to another galaxy.
So rather than spend valuable time focusing on the constant bitching and whining, here’s a different view of the aforesaid . . .
****************************************
Is this how reverse osmosis works, or has Little Johnny been placed under an evil pseudonym?
Albert
A woman is in a grocery store and happens upon a grandpa and his poorly behaving 3-year-old grandson.
At every turn, it is obvious gramps has his hands full with the kid screaming for candy in the candy aisle, cookies in the cookie aisle; same for fruit, cereal and soda.
Meanwhile gramps is working his way around saying in a controlled voice, ‘Easy Albert, we won’t be long, easy boy’.
Another outburst and she hears gramps calmly say, ‘It’s OK Albert, just a couple more minutes and we’ll be outta here, hang in there.’
At the checkout, the little terror is throwing items from the cart and gramps again in a controlled voice is saying, ‘Albert, Albert, relax buddy, don’t get upset — we’ll be home in five minutes; stay cool, Albert’.
Very impressed the woman goes up to gramps as he’s loading the kid and the groceries into the car and says,
‘You know sir, it’s none of my business, but you were amazing in there. I don’t know how you did it. The whole time you kept your composure and no matter how loud and disruptive he got, you just calmly kept saying things would be OK. Albert is very lucky to have you for his grandpa’.
‘Thanks, lady,’ said gramps, ‘but I’m Albert — the little bastard’s name is Johnny’.
I will be rejoicing to see Obama win with the largest LANDSLIDE in American history.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.30.08 11:07 am
Hear ! Hear !
By Men With Hats on 10.30.08 1:29 pm
I’ll third that.
By Go Green on 10.30.08 2:04 pm
I will be rejoicing to see Obama win with the largest LANDSLIDE in American history.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.30.08 11:07 am
Hear ! Hear !
By Men With Hats on 10.30.08 1:29 pm
I’ll third that.
By Go Green on 10.30.08 2:04 pm
………………………………..
And I’ll remind you when President Obama makes Ontario a Rust Belt.
Please edify. Bill-Muskoka, what is meant by (not anymore)?
By Brent Fullard on 10.30.08 2:01 pm
I’ll answer if you don’t mind .
Some Chiquita stole most of Bills name by identifying herself as Muskoka Jill.
Hence the (not anymore ) disclaimer .
By Men With Hats on 10.30.08 2:19 pm
It simply means I no longer live in the Muskoka, but kept the handle. As to the Muskoka Jill, I could care less, and do not feel ‘Jilted’ at all
Hope that answers your question Brent?
By Required on 10.30.08 1:53 pm,
As you probably already have guessed I disagree totally. The gold standard is one mechanism that I believe should be reinstated it is not the only thing that needs to be considered.
There is no doubt that in many cases governments become the handmaiden of vested interests. The problem is like political power, economic power is just as easily corrupted. It is not governments that make people greedy.
Throughout history the marketplace has “corrected” but at high cost and over a much longer time frame than you suggest.
The economy cannot be treated as a separate entity from society.
Now, for those still retaining some illusions, how does it feel to live in a so-called “country” where the Central Bank belongs to the head of Government of a FOREGEING power and the actions of the Central Bank are SECRET?
By Required on 10.30.08 10:50 am
To the first point I wouldn’t know and neither would you as the Queen is Canada’s Head of State. The GG is only Her Majesty’s representative and acts on her behalf. Hence the central Bank of Canada is owned by Canada’s head of state.
As for being secret, just imagine the conflicts of interest and lawsuits if rate annnouncements and the discussions behind them were leaked.
And I fully expect that Harper and Obama will get along gangbusters.
By Dennis Forbes on 10.30.08 2:16 pm
So you think Obama is going to just forget and forgive the Harperites meddling in their election campaign on the behalf of McCain? I don’t and expect some serious payback!
>So you think Obama is going to just forget and forgive the Harperites meddling in their election campaign on the behalf of McCain?
Errr, they did? Short memory you have there.
The Harper Chief of Staffer actually said that *CLINTON* was all talk about NAFTA. A CTV reporter then misreported it as Obama.
By Men With Hats on 10.30.08 2:19 pm
It simply means I no longer live in the Muskoka, but kept the handle. As to the Muskoka Jill, I could care less, and do not feel ‘Jilted’ at all
Hope that answers your question Brent?
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.30.08 3:38 pm
Yea, forgot you moved out of landslide Tonys riding .
Damn ! Now I’ll have to turn in my spyglass and deerstalker .Mo more seven per cent solution for me .
By Required on 10.30.08 10:50 am
By Greg W., Oakville on 10.30.08 2:26 pm
Maybe you two need to take the test for new immigrants?
So you think Obama is going to just forget and forgive the Harperites meddling in their election campaign on the behalf of McCain? I don’t and expect some serious payback!
By Truth B Told on 10.30.08 4:10 pm
Obama will just consider the source and realize who he is dealing with and move on .
But I do have a question, from Rideau Hall, can the GG see the Canadian flag over the Parliament Buildings?
I assume it flys when the HoC is in session.
The reason I ask, is that the flag that flys over the British Houses of Parliament can be seen from Buckingham Palace. Hence HM could see whether His/Her parliament, and the MPs were actually working, discussing matters of state. If the flag didn’t fly for enough days, heads would roll!
As a conservative, I, and many of my political lean, greatly look forward to Obama winning. He represents true conservative values (perhaps a little too much. He and his party lay quite a bit to the right of even Harper’s crew), unlike the spend to exhaustion Republicans. And I fully expect that Harper and Obama will get along gangbusters.
By Dennis Forbes on 10.30.08 2:16 pm
——————–
And I’ll remind you when President Obama makes Ontario a Rust Belt.
By HARRY S on 10.30.08 3:35 pm
=====================================
FUNNY !
Will you two please arrange a meeting amongst yourselfs and get on the same page. Harper would frown on this divisivness.
Men with Hats and Bill in Muskoka;
Guess what? Obama will NOT win the election on the fourth. Don’t believe the polls. americans will NEVER elect a marxist or socialist, whatever you want to call Obama, to the White House. And as soon as McCain wins the markets will jump by three to four thousand points. Just watch.
The sky is falling!! Get in your bathtub and cut your wrists, we are doomed.
Brent Fullard,
now that you’re back, I would be curious as to what happened to the protest vote of the IT investors, and how your campaign against Flaherty went.
No alterior motives to the questions – I’d just like to know.
“The biggest threat to our current Fiat Currency system is the LARGE bubble called DERIVATIVES. There is not enough money in the world to fulfill these various contracts. Furthermore, many of these contracts are no better than Monopoly Money. The quickest way to eliminate this problem is to wipe out these contracts as if they did not exist. . . . It all depends on whether we have to put up with a severe recession or a Depression.” — John Zalischuk, 1:39 pm
Good post, telling it like it really is.
From what I have read, approx. US$520 Trillion in derivatives exist, about half of which have nothing to back them with, so those are the ones which are Monopoly Money (already worthless).
The remainder are contracts between financial and other companies, most of which are close to breaking point.
In effect, then, this $520 Trillion is nothing more than dust in the wind — here today, gone tomorrow.
This is another case, yet to be finished, of Bre-X except on a much larger scale.
A few days ago, there was a report which said the greenback would be finished by 2015, along with the peso and loonie.
Hence, the Amero would be implemented to replace the three currencies, probably on a one-for-one basis, which leads to C.B. Innes’ post from 3:57 p.m.
“. . . The gold standard is one mechanism that I believe should be reinstated . . . no doubt that in many cases governments become the handmaiden of vested interests. . . . It is not governments that make people greedy. . . . The economy cannot be treated as a separate entity from society.”
Agreed. Bringing the gold standard back would bring a level of stability to an unstable world.
Govts. do not make people greedy — people make for greedy people, so how much is too much? How much is enough?
That is where people have to re-evaluate their lives.
With interest rates so low, and the stock market still on its way down, it’s hard to see how anyone can have investments that get better than 4% in the short and medium terms. I think savings will continue to plummet until there is some kind of revolution of the middle class in the States, and they take a quarter of (or more of) the wealth locked into so few moneybags in the States. They’ll also have to crack down on all sorts of people living well beyond their means with Yukons and ‘Canyoneros’ in their driveways.
As someone with some savings, I can only imagine how uncertain the future is for people who have debt. There’s no wonder why so many choose to be ignorant about economics, when ignorance means not having to worry about the past or the future.
[...] practitioner though, if not knowing history is what leads to a downfall in the present. During the financial crisis underway around us, I think it would be much easier to be completely ignorant of the economic system that drives our [...]
Canaccord is letting 10% of workers go, along with cutting salaries by 10-20%.
Also, this is a good look at what kind of a panic the fed in.
http://tinyurl.com/62bx73
Men with Hats and Bill in Muskoka;
Guess what? Obama will NOT win the election on the fourth. Don’t believe the polls. americans will NEVER elect a marxist or socialist, whatever you want to call Obama, to the White House. And as soon as McCain wins the markets will jump by three to four thousand points. Just watch.
By Go McCain Go on 10.30.08 5:36 pm
Yer,nutz . Obama will win with the biggest landslide in American history .
Advance polls prove this out .
The only way McCain will win is if the Republicans steal another election with their stupid Diebold machines .
If that happens there will be a conflagration across America and McCain will never have the chance to sit in the oval office.
That is the stupidist prediction I have read. Ever .
Watching the zombies take their places in Harpos new cabinet I am reminded of “Dawn Of The Dead”
Hey, maybe it is a documentary .
Talk about ” Night Of The Living Dead “
Yo, Joe where are you – are you here?
True to form Joe, the not so certified Plumber has become an US icon for people who earn more than 250K a year.
(Maybe, I doubt the instant celebrity has 15 minutes of fame or truth).
Please somebody help me, it’s way more important that people earning more than the 250k receive a permanent tax break ‘cause they are hurting.
Meanwhile, the rest, the US middle class are losing everything.
I have to tell you I will never understand the logic of destroy the middle class and we will all be happy.
Can someone explain this to me?
And I’ll remind you when President Obama makes Ontario a Rust Belt.
By HARRY S on 10.30.08 3:35 pm
So we’re in a no win situation. Just what do you think McCain/Palin will do with NAFTA? We’ve already seen how Bush let the FTC ignore it!
We’ll remind you, if they should win!
>Will you two please arrange a meeting amongst yourselfs and get on the same page. Harper would frown on this divisivness.
That’s pretty funny. No, actually it’s incredibly stupid, and it’s demonstrative how some people how no real political acumen, but instead they can only see everyone as caricatures in black and white categories. Grow up.
Nice bunch of sock puppets Harpo has in cabinet .
They will be as mute as the last bunch .
It will be all Harpo all the time .
Watching the zombies take their places in Harpos new cabinet I am reminded of “Dawn Of The Dead”
Hey, maybe it is a documentary .
Talk about ” Night Of The Living Dead “
By Men With Hats on 10.30.08 8:11 pm
………………………………..
YOU hate Canadians … YOU hate democracy … YOU hate because you are a LOSER.
“Obama … represents true conservative values (perhaps a little too much. He and his party lay quite a bit to the right of even Harper’s crew), unlike the spend to exhaustion Republicans. And I fully expect that Harper and Obama will get along gangbusters.
~ DENNIS FORBES 30.08 2:16 PM
First of all, Dennis, regarding your stardust sprinkling, to incredibly claim that Harper is anything but extreme right, won’t work. Yes Harper is on a campaign to dumb down Canadians and hook those numb brains to the right, even if he has to make those poor souls think he is more left. Here, we don’t fall for such lame shenanigans.
…
“So you think Obama is going to just forget and forgive the Harperites meddling in their election campaign on the behalf of McCain? I don’t and expect some serious payback!”
BY TRUTH B TOLD 30.08 4:10 PM
“Short memory you have.. The Harper Chief of Staffer actually said that *CLINTON* was all talk about NAFTA. A CTV reporter then misreported it as Obama.”
BY DENNIS FORBES 30.08 4:51 PM
Dennis, how about some accuracy please?
The point:
Harper, using his minion Brodie, (and others), was trying to serve McCain a campaign treat, with his little trick on the Democrats. In their bumbling, they may have lit the wrong wick on their little bomb, crossed their wires, or lit both ends, but they did it… they were helping McCain. With Harper’s little “Nafta Trick” he got both Democratic contenders with one stone. (Since they didn’t know which one McCain would be up against.)
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Barack-Obama-presidential-primary-campaign,-2008
Hats,
over half of that lot in cabinet will be drawing their ministerial pay and perks under false pretences. Love that Privy Council Oath – can you imagine someone expressing an opinion frankly in a Harper cabinet?
The worst part is that the bobbleheads will only get in the way of the proper functioning of their departments. There will be stuff for lots of sequels to Yes, Minister!
That is the stupidist prediction I have read. Ever .
By Men With Hats on 10.30.08 8:07 pm
MWH, yea I’m thinking it ranks right up there with your prediction a few weeks ago that Dion would be leading a majority government right now. How did that work out for ya?
It simply means I no longer live in the Muskoka, but kept the handle. As to the Muskoka Jill, I could care less, and do not feel ‘Jilted’ at all
Hope that answers your question Brent?
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.30.08 3:38 pm
I don’t mean to be rude Bill (although you never limit yourself), but I am glad you no longer live in Muskoka. My grandparents are from Muskoka… they left right after their marriage to pioneer in Sask. Half of the large family went West, half stayed in the Muskoka area. The two halves keep in touch. We have visited them. They are, all of them, outstanding, talented, successful people with sound values… salt-of-the-earth types. When I read your twisted, absurd emails, I cringe, knowing how far you are from the values of the good folks who built up that beautiful area. Too bad your name is still associated with it, but at least you don’t live there anymore.
There… something I’ve wanted to say for a long time.
>Finally, does attacking some people who post on this open forum make you feel superior? Pathetic. — Garth
Yes, absolutely Garth. Given your snide little replies to many comments, clearly you enjoy it yourself, so save the high road for someone who deserves it.
By Dennis Forbes on 10.30.08 11:52 am
Dennis, can you answer me these simple questions? If you disagree with Garth so much, why are you coming here? Why not just start your own blog because if you did, then you could delete anything you don’t agree with. Makes sense to me.
Btw, you do deserve it.
Cheers
The picture above is the Ritz-Carlton in Vancouver. I walk past it every day and I work in one of the building in the background. The Ritz-Carlton is not an “Abandoned condo tower site in Vancouver.” Work did stop on the grounds, but that they are working out some logistics regarding underground parking. There were people there today painting scaffolding and busy with other things. Garth – get your facts straight before you start fear mongering!!!
It’s a hole. And it will remain a hole. — Garth
“Please somebody help me, it’s way more important that people earning more than the 250k receive a permanent tax break ‘cause they are hurting. Meanwhile, the rest, the US middle class are losing everything. I have to tell you I will never understand the logic of destroy the middle class and we will all be happy. Can someone explain this to me?”
BY BONNIE N BC 30.08 9:13 PM
…
I won’t explain the worst case scenario ‘theory’, I’ll leave that to others, although it’s been posted here often enough.
But you already know there do not appear to be any “Conservative” politicians anymore. Well, there’s a few, but they are either scared and playing along, or soon to be gone. Someone might correct me on this, but I believe there used to be real Conservatives.. you know, the ones that we thought we were voting for like Joe Clark or Bob Stanfield.
Think of U.S. politics, back before Nixon, back before Goldwater, even further back a hundred years and more. The rich always knew how to control the money and power, party didn’t matter. The association between politicians and business has always been corrupt. No U.S. elections have been clean. Both parties have had their individuals who you could fault.
However, it seems one party was chock full of individuals who were so strongly idealist that they felt cheating was a great means to their end. Warlike businessmen, ready to peddle their wares using influence, and other businessmen who had no qualms about using the advantage of politics, and they were pals anyways with funnymentalists and politicians. So why not make sure that all their business clubs, all their church affected persons, and anyone who believed in the old “Conservative” myth, were all carefully given just what they want to hear. Viola! Agendas, favours, funding, money, and zombie voters duped and delivered to their doorstep, all in one! All with “just enough” in common.
The effect? If businessmen have their hands in power, which they do now, it’s a done deal.. then they end up with most of the money, so the side effect, not the intent, is that we simply lose the middle class because we get poorer and poorer, as the corporations reap in our money, by several means which they sought, and now, control.
I should go back to the obvious. The reason the rich businessmen end up with all the money, is because it’s an unfair advantage to have money. Money makes money, in investing, speculation, building, cronyism, etc.
And they can have their money. It’s just that we can’t expect the poor to somehow have the same advantage to further succeed, that’s not the way it works, with no money.
So the rich get richer, the poor get poorer. Nothing changes, we’ve always known that. And rich people aren’t about to stop what they’re doing, so… by logic, and by looking around right now, we’ll all get poorer. Unless, en masse, we catch on to this neocon trick of duping people. They have the corporate money and the funnymentalist drones, not to mention the Conservatives who don’t realize their party was hijacked — but “just enough” voters then to get elected, several times apparently. Heck, if the media sucks up enough, they’ll be elected for decades.
The regular “voters” just haven’t figured that out yet. They still think they’re Conservatives.
If we want to preserve the middle class, what we’re trying to preserve is “FAIRNESS”. No one wants to cripple anyone’s ability to make a lot of money. But there’s a point at which everyone has to realize that if one small group has SO much money, then logically, others are getting less and less of what there is to go around.
The “effect” of getting richer, is exponential, too. The rich not only have “the advantage” of making more money through investment, building, cronyism, etc.. but with political power, they have a complete set of tools to cripple the other 95% of us, and suck us dry. So corporate globalization, driven by WTO, WEF, IMF etc., is not such a good idea, because right now, it’s the corporate wealthy calling all the shots. They have hijacked the ideal of globalization that could have helped the poor, and turned it into, perhaps inadvertently, a way for the rich to further prosper.
And dumb Harper is sucked right into it, along with his known buddies, guys who don’t believe that fairness is part of the natural order of things..
BTW we used to have “fairness” with protectionism in Canada. Harper is tearing all that down, because lifelong he’s been sucked into believing the free trade, free everything mantra. Apparently it’s quite hard to get that nonsense out of one’s head once indoctrinated.
…
(As to worse case scenario, then refer to NWO in which case they ‘are’ trying to deliberately squeeze the money out of the middle class. And more. It seems to be working.]
What to fear?
How about Flaherty, Clement and Baird, three former Mike Harris ministers in Ontario now running the major economic portfolios at the Federal level.
I hope the rest of Canada won’t have to come to understand how incompetant Harris and his ministers were because of ideology. Probability is, they will.
For Canada’s sake, I hope not.
…………
BTW Whatever happened to the conservative value of small government? 25%, or 1 in 4 of Harper’s MPs are now in cabinet, and the cabnet is much larger than the UK, Australia, NewZealand, France, Germany, US Administration, etc..etc…
They’ve increased the number of managers at the ministerial level, I’ll bet they’ll start to chop those doing the real work in their ministries.
How much extra is that going to cost the taxpayer for these front men, most of whom will never be heard from?
Off topic, but it might seem more attractive every day -
“Proportional voting leads to backroom deals”, Lawrie McFarlane at http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/comment/story.html?id=b221982b-137f-4270-aa1e-fefc80c62bee
(Courtesy of Norm Spector)
By Barb the proofreader on 10.31.08 3:05 am,
There is no doubt that Harper is a firm advocate of the “free enterprise, free market and free trade” ideology. Like any ideology in application it becomes something much different from what a superficial belief might suggest. It is an ideology that uses the term “free,” which for most people has a positive connotation, to mean something quite different.
This concept is that “the cream always rises to the top.” In this ideology the “cream” stand for those who can accumulate the control of the most wealth. If you have ever seen the speech that Harper made about his hero, Gwyn Morgan, the concept would become quite clear. It is the CEO that controls the wealth of the corporation and he or she becomes the “entitled.”
Once the “entitled,” the economic aristocracy, gets into trouble the natural action for those who believe in the concept of the entitlement of wealth to protect them. At that point the “free market” ideology is replaced by corporatism.
Harper described the “left-liberal economic philosophy” as corporatism and defined it as “the use of private ownership and markets for state-directed objectives.” He described its tools as “subsidization, public/private partnerships and state investment funds.”
According to his own definitions, Harper’s own administration has become right-leaning corporatism, something that he was not opposed to.
What he did oppose was the reluctance to use military force to enforce certain traditional “moral” values on others and to enforce traditional values on society.
Harper believes in “liberal” economic policy just as most Liberals do. Like the Liberals his policies are corporatist.
This is why the electoral question boils down to the “lesser of two evils” and will continue to be just that with two corporatist parties vying for power. We have the same problem in the U.S.
Maybe we should be focusing on is the power that the large collectives called corporations weld over government and the power concentrated in the hands of the CEO. After all, when the concept of a corporation being “too large” to be allowed to fail, enters mainstream discourse, we have a problem.
There… something I’ve wanted to say for a long time.
By kip on 10.31.08 12:26 am
Feel better now Kip? Ah, yes, sounds like your grandparents bought into the land scam of ‘Come to the Muskoka and we will give you free land to homestead.’ Yeppers, trouble was the soil is too shallow for farming, so most did move west to the prairies.
How do you read my ‘emails’? I make comments. As to the ‘values’ of the Muskoka, I take it you refer to the Conswervative values? Good you are welcome to those out of date, bigoted values. If you mean hard work, well, some have it and some don’t.
I bet you think Real Canada is in the small towns, just like Sarah Palin thinks real America is, eh?
No, sorry Kip, I have lived across Canada and real Canadians are everywhere. So are ignorant Rednecks who think they have a lock on reality.
Rust Belt: term applied to the American Midwest due to its heavy influence of steel, automotive, and heavy industrial manufacturers.
Hmmm, seems Ontario is part of that, has been, and hopefully will be.
So much for Harry’s hairball comment.
By C. B. Innes on 10.30.08 3:57 pm
“The gold standard is one mechanism that I believe should be reinstated it is not the only thing that needs to be considered.”
Agree.
“The problem is like political power, economic power is just as easily corrupted. It is not governments that make people greedy.”
No, but in a TRULY free market, economic corruption is almost impossible. Why? Because:
1 – The government cannot intervene (money is OUTSIDE of their reach – they cannot inflate).
2 – There is an independent judiciary
3 – There is ALWAYS another company that does it better (it’s called competiton).
“Throughout history the marketplace has “corrected” but at high cost and over a much longer time frame than you suggest.”
And here we go again. Look, if you are going to do an analysis, do it properly. If you look at the history of the Gold standard, where NO governmental intervention occured, then the numbers I stated previously hold.
IF, on the other hand, you look at the Gold standard indiscriminately, INCLUDING time period when Governments messed around with it, wars, Gold rushes,etc., this is ANOMALIES happened, then yes, the numbers are different.
The point is that NON-FIAT money is STABLE IF Government do not intervene. In this point, history bails me out.
“The economy cannot be treated as a separate entity from society.”
And who is trying to? The Austrian school of economics is BASED on an economic model that STARTS with a single person, as the onset of society, performing economic activities. You can’t get more basic than that! The Austrian theory is the ONLY theory that is actually based on a social reality and NOT on the current data “flavour of the week” that-seems-to-support-my-pet-theory.
Furthermore, the Austrians FULLY FORECASTED ALL the debacles that happened since, well, since the theory was created! How about THAT! for validation.
>Dennis, can you answer me these simple questions? If you disagree with Garth so much, why are you coming here?
I’m sorry, is this an echo chamber where Garth can preach to his minions of loyal, naive followers? Is this where all the conspiracy theory nuts and “HARPER IS A BUSH-LITE NEOCON THAT’S GOING TO IMPOSE A THEOCRACY!!” talking point loop machines congregate?
>Hmmm, seems Ontario is part of that, has been, and hopefully will be.
The “rust belt” was called that because of the *decay* of industry (hence ‘rust’), and the subsequent decay of cities like Buffalo, Detroit, Cleveland, and so on. It is not at all a good title to find applied to one’s region.
>Harper, using his minion Brodie, (and others), was trying to serve McCain a campaign treat
Yeah, ignore that McCain wasn’t even close to being nominated at that point, and in actuality all attention was on the Democratic Party process. It is an extraordinary stretch to claim that this was helping either McCain or the Republicans, and it’s just grossly and hilariously dishonest to claim that it targeted Obama, when actually Brodie regaled what happened with the Clinton campaign. If anything, they were helping Obama, even if a CTV reporter bumbled it.
Keep spinning reality to serve your bigotry though. Reality isn’t as important as pushing your message.
There will be stuff for lots of sequels to Yes, Minister!
By Herb on 10.30.08 11:03 pm
Hear! Hear! Today’s Star’s cartoon illustrates it perfectly The New PMO
Seniors bang gong in Hong Kong over investment gone wrong….
their signs say “major bank fraud” and “My money gone, I don’t want to live.”
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i5QKzgiPx7T0xBlp2rbJCpbCUxQgD945DVDO2
Meanwhile, in Canada, as winter approaches…seniors wait placidly for the thaw in ABCP.
Feel better now Kip? Ah, yes, sounds like your grandparents bought into the land scam of ‘Come to the Muskoka and we will give you free land to homestead.’ Yeppers, trouble was the soil is too shallow for farming, so most did move west to the prairies.
No, they came as lumberman. None of them was duped. It was wrong when I said ‘emails’… I meant comments.
Still glad you moved from Muskoka.
Well folks, on the micro-economic scale, as a self-employed consultant (thanks to the tech melt-down) I can say that my small clients are also cutting back. The fear of the economic situation has trickled down, and while not as dramatic as the thousands dropped by large companies, it is no less significant.
Large companies are slowing spending.
Medium companies are slowing spending.
Small companies are slowing spending.
ergo
Consumers are stopping spending.
It is fear of the future that is hitting everyone. Loss of confidence forcing loss of spending is not a good thing for a consumer society.
With so many of the “new jobs created” bragged about by the CPC being “created” by folks like me becoming self-employed due to collapse of manufacturing, etc., the actual unemployment rates will not accurately show the pain in our society.
I was just told by an important client there would be no spending for 5-6 months. If I were an “employee”, this would be considered a lay-off, but as self employed consultant, this loss will not even register as it is “impossible” for me to be considered unemployed.
Obviously, I do not qualify for EI benefits as self-employed are uneligible.
Gee, it is nice to know society cares about us small entrepreneurs. Sink or swim – but there is no shoreline visible for us.
Yeppers, trouble was the soil is too shallow for farming, so most did move west to the prairies…
…So are ignorant rednecks who think they have a lock on reality.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.31.08 9:09 am
Actually most of them stayed in the Muskoka area and are very successful… Hardworking? You betcha.
No, you’re the one who thinks he has a lock on reality. I could say something more to this, but contrary to what you would do, will restrain myself.
Herb asked:
“Brent Fullard,
now that you’re back, I would be curious as to what happened to the protest vote of the IT investors, and how your campaign against Flaherty went.
No alterior motives to the questions – I’d just like to know.”
As for the protest vote from IT investors…..all I can say is that Harper was denied his coveted majority…for reasons we can only speculate over. People who voted for him in droves in 2006 based on his IT false promise, were highly unlikely to have voted for the confirmed liar in 2008.
As for Flaherty….he is as deceitful up close and personal as he is from afar. He went to considerable lengths to avoid debating me, including getting the infamous CTV to cancel a previously agreed upon one hour live broadcast virtual town hall meeting which all the Whitby-Oshawa candidates had agreed to, but from which he withdrew and the CTV producer lied to me by saying “a number of the candidates were unable make it”, which revealed itself to be the lie it was when I contacted all the other candidates, who said they had not withdrawn, leaving the CTV without any scruples, and the riding without a debate……all at the behest of Jim Flaherty.
Lot’s of visceral dislike of Jim Flaherty in his own riding that I became aware of at the door as I campaigned. Low voter turnout and a general unease with Dion and the Green Shift on the part of the electorate were fatal to any hopes I had of ousting Flaherty from office. Flaherty also made much of the fact that I did not reside in Whitby-Oshawa, even though that is a riding that I have both lived and worked in, in the past. That was the Finance Minister’s best argument against me?….I didn’t live in the riding.
Maybe next time, I should get myself some large multi-million dollar estate in Whitby like Flaherty has (by marrying into the Elliott family)….and I could be more representative of the average voter in Whitby-Oshawa?
By Required Name on 10.31.08 9:21 am,
The Austrian School is highly idealistic and based on assumptions that have not and probably cannot be verified.
For example, your argument is based on a major fallacy: the concept of an “independent judiciary.” The Judiciary does not make the laws, its role is to interpret the laws. The laws are made by government. For that reason the judiciary is never independent of government.
Another example is theory of competition. While there may be companies that could “do it better” when the marketplace is controlled by heavily capitalized private interests they can prevent competition from emerging by creating “crony” relationships. Just as these interests use governments to gain power, they can use private political relationships with each other to do the same thing.
The purpose behind liberal democracy is to use the democratic process to prevent these private relationships from enslaving others. There is no doubt that democracy is constantly being subverted but that does not mean that it does not provide the best system of checks and balances.
It seems to me that the Austrian School advocates a more extreme version of what has caused the current crisis: subjective individualism.
To Lead the Liberals
Rex Murphy Point of View
October 30, 2008
Big news from the Liberal Party leadership sweepstakes this week.
Bad news, too. Winner of landslides, slayer of opposition parties, former New Brunswick premier, friend of Clinton, Frank McKenna – will NOT run for the leadership of that much-battered party.
I cannot believe anyone is surprised – for this is the decision of an eminently sane mind. Why would Mr. McKenna, who declined to run for the leadership of the Liberal party, when Paul Martin stepped out from under its tarnished tiara, some 2 and ½ years ago, run for it now?
Being leader of the Liberal party isn’t what it used to be. It is not, most emphatically, what for most of the past century undeniably it was – a quick and petty formality, a mere change room, before becoming Prime Minister of Canada.
The glister is off the crown, the once mighty Liberal party is now a fractious rump – the worst kind of rump need I say? And whoever now abandons his or her peace of mind to assume its leadership is essentially undertaking a “resusc” mission, volunteering to captain a once great vessel as it edges closer and closer to the rocks.
So McKenna’s lucid choice to stay where he so successful is these days is no surprise. Nor do I expect John Manley, another eminence who also declined the prospect in the party’s rosier days, will want to leap on deck during these tormenting days.
Ignatieff and Rae are, to vary the metaphor somewhat, a different kettle of fish. They’ve already invested in the leadership. Both are in politics for no other reason, and have already expended both money and time seeking the position Stephane Dion scooped out of their hands, and held so fitfully ever since.
But even these two stalwarts, if they had the courage to admit it, must see that what they sought so intensely a couple of years back – much like the market – has seriously declined in value since then. The Liberal party is a broken-backed, much-reduced, half-shell of itself these days.
It has but 77 seats in Parliament. It is shadowed by growing competition from the NDP. It has withered in Quebec. It is a phantom in the Western provinces. It is riven by faction and crippled in its fundraising.
Mr. Rae and Mr. Ignatieff stay at it because, regardless of the grim politics of the Situation, their competition has also a personal element. These two are natural rivals. Ever since their sunshine days long ago as roommates at the University of Toronto, these two have been measuring off against each other – at long distance or near – and this leadership contest offers a last and public arena for one, finally, to claim a supremacy over the other.
But whichever of them emerges from this last arm wrestle the victor, he will not be on automatic pilot to become Prime Minister. He will have to spend precious years to rebuild a battered party before that’s even a realistic prospect. And with each year that passes for either Ignatieff or Rae, their own relevance, to the party or to the times, will dwindle.
Hence the chatter that it’s time for someone really new: Hence the vague yearning for the Trudeau years (that would be Justin), Part II. For the Liberal party today, (relative) youth is actually the only currency that counts.
I think Mr. Rae or Mr. Ignatieff will win. But the Obama-esque mood settling over the name of Justin Trudeau tells us the Liberal party is feeding more on hope these days than reality.
For The National, I’m Rex Murphy.
Hi Garth,
I hop eyour holloween is scarry and nice, but not to scarry,
Some HOPE;
UNICEF praises Climate Change Bill passing
The Climate Change Bill is the “world’s strongest” according to UNICEF UK.
http://www.lowcarboneconomy.com/community_content/_low_carbon_news/2868?31102008
Fossil fuels could be out by 2090
Fossil fuel use could be brought to an end by 2090 if appropriate investment is provided, claims the European Renewable Energy Council.
http://www.lowcarboneconomy.com/community_content/_low_carbon_news/2789?31102008
To find more stuff try;
The Low Carbon Economy Ltd.
http://www.lowcarboneconomy.com/home
I subscribe to John Raulston Sauls view and prefer to blame it all on Canada’a aboriginal peoples’
“When I dig around in the roots of how we imagine ourselves, how we govern, how we live together in communities — how we treat one another when we are not being stupid — what I find is deeply Aboriginal,” writes Saul. That’s Aboriginal with a capital A.
Forget the usual suspects
Saul claims we’d be mistaken if we thought our “institutional and cultural inheritance” came from the usual suspects: “British parliamentary democracy, British and French justice, the Enlightenment, British liberalism, Western individualism … Judeo-Christian moral questions, Athenian principles of citizenship and democracy, Western capitalism, particularly its U.S. form.”
Instead, he says, all the important traits we Canadians feel we have inherited from Western Civilization — tolerance, inclusiveness and fairness — we have actually learned from Canada’s native peoples.
In Saul’s view, the earliest settlers started by intermarrying with natives, which is why he calls Canada a Métis civilization. Aboriginals taught the bumbling Europeans pretty much everything worth knowing, from how to live on the land, to how to live with and listen to each other.
But then, in the 19th century, the British imperial elite decided to squelch this native contribution with its glorious oral and humane traditions. The imperialists did this by rewriting the history of Canada.
Very interesting view that gives us a unique perspective on our current reality if you subscribe to it.
Hi Mr. Garth Turner, FYI anyone,
This first story sound good, BUT if you know, it is pritty scarry. See 3 video info links below. ~26min total.
Peterborough EnergyPark plans submitted
Plans for a development which will dispose of waste, generate heat and electricity and house a research facility have been submitted.
http://www.lowcarboneconomy.com/community_content/_low_carbon_news/2808?31102008
Here is why this seemingly good idea is actually scarry! 3 part info. video.
Energy from Waste: Part 1 -The Myths Debunked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB5iOtxlpCs
Energy From Waste:Part 2- Some regional alternatives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNLQ359ex-U
Energy From Waste: Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbkVIjR59M&mode=related&search=
By maybe Rhino? on 10.31.08 10:30 am,
This is where there is a major problem today. The economy has changed and the government is still using the same measurements as it did decades ago. The result is that most statistics are meaningless not just for this reason, but because StatsCan has been underfunded for decades.
For example, the impact of phantom GDP, caused by off-shoring production, on the U.S. GDP has never been calculated but it is possible that the U.S. has been in recession for much longer than the current measures suggest.
Economists estimate that the use of per capital GDP as a gauge of living standards has been useless since the 1970s.
The whole concept of productivity is also questionable since different jurisdictions measure it differently. For example, some measures use unemployment as a factor and other do not.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.31.08 9:09 am
They tried a similar approach for the North Shore of the St. Lawrence. In order to increase population in the region, the government gave away “homesteads” for anyone who wanted them. The term used was “Les Colons”, or colonists, to try and give some prestige to the idea. But the soil was bad, the winters long, and most failed horribly.
“Maudite Colon” became a derogatory phrase implying the recipient was a stupid, gullible, backward idiot. Call a Quebecois a “Colon”, and you may find yourself in a fight. Funny, translated it only means “colonist” – NOT a particular unflattering body part!
Maybe we should be focusing on is the power that the large collectives called corporations weld over government and the power concentrated in the hands of the CEO. After all, when the concept of a corporation being “too large” to be allowed to fail, enters mainstream discourse, we have a problem.
BY C. B. INNES 31.08 9:09 AM
I agree with your full comments C. B. and particularly that end statement.
I will go back for a moment, just to say that you will never find anyone honest, fair, intelligent and caring in a Conservative Reform government, as the likes of M. Dion, and I know you agree on that. So I hold out hope for the Liberals that he is the sort of leader the Liberals attract.
As to what to do about the fact that on a U.S. scale they saved reckless corporations, and on a world scale the WTO rules can trump our own governments… just cross your fingers and hope the world’s people get smart and elect some strong leaders with guts like Dion. I know he would have stood up for Canada.
…
The canary died. Most don’t realize it.
Speaking of productivity:
Seniors, you got the teeth of the Hydra upon you.
Notice the many TV stories lately about happy 80+ returning to the work force to feel rejuvenation in their life? They’re subtly telling you to get that harness on again. G&M commentators, in response to the pension crisis, are lamenting why Seniors have to be kept alive so long.
Meanwhile….
Private members bill in Alberta to fund houses for renters. Government will pick up 10% down payment if buyer defaults. This will allow those with not enough savings for down payment to buy that house.
Even bettter…it is reported USA considering funding all those over-priced McMansions that are now worth half their mortgage value if threatened by foreclosure. Feds will insure any loss as mortgages are reduced to their current appraisal value.
Many two income families will reconsider working for a living…it is paying more and more to be a debtor rather than a saver.
Mr. Garth Turner, FYI anyone,
A new report shows that atrazine, the second-most widely used agricultural herbicide in America, poses a serious threat to amphibians.
http://planetsave.com/blog/2008/10/31/popular-us-farm-chemical-death-to-frogs/
this is totally outside this discussion but I have a question and I think somewhere someone has the answer. I would like to donate to Stephane Dion’s leadership debt but can not find how to make sure that the money I donate will actually go for this debt. When I asked Mr Dion’s office they sent me to the liberal party site but that no longer has the option to say where the money goes. So if someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it very much. Thank you
BY CALBERTA 31.08 11:29 AM
_______________________________
Calberta,
I would also subscribe to that. Any particular favourite reading of his?
Hi Mr. Garth Turner, FYI anyone,
More reasons to fear PMSH asking for electronic voting machines for Canada.
A Diebold voting machine removed after voter in Colorado noticed that the machine wouldn’t take a vote for Democratic state Senate candidate.
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20081030_not_exactly_accu_vote_diebold_machine_removed_in_co/
“The picture above is the Ritz-Carlton in Van”
It’s a hole. And it will remain a hole. — Garth
BY VANMAN 31.08 2:46 AM
Hmm. “Vanman” can’t tell a building from a hole in the ground!
Hi Mr. Garth Turner, FYI
An atrical on,
Canadian Banking System: Regulating Funding, Finance and Securities.
http://www.cosmoloan.com/international-economy/canadian-banking-system-regulating-funding-finance-and-securities.html
Hi Garth, FYI
Ecuador says CIA infiltrated its military.
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Ecuador_says_CIA_infiltrated_its_military_1031.html
Check out the massive number of retail stores closing in the US. This will continue into CANADA right after Christmas. Anyone have a job in any of these big box store? Better start looking for another JOB
Hear! Hear! Today’s Star’s cartoon illustrates it perfectly The New PMO
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.31.08 9:33 am
jpeg is unavailable .
BY CM 30.08 2:37 PM
Technically CM, we’re 4 years behind, not 2, since the Americans ignorantly re-elected their neocon in 2004, and we followed the same path four years after them.
And yes Palin was picked by the usual suspects. Krystol and his father have had quite the hands in this neocon histoire and “evolution” of the ultra extremers and funny-meddlists over the past few decades.
Have you read up on Cindy’s father’s “boss”? Wow, he ruled Arizona, both parties on his take.. big, big time. Her dad went to jail, took the fall for him, but he was gifted the beer franchise for doing so. Ver-ry interesting..
1 in 5 US homeowners have mortgages worth more than their homes…7.63 with negative equity.
This is soon expected to increase to 1 in 4 and then to all-in as bill payers discover the joys and benefits of the Paulson-paper-prestigidizer-bailer-outer-defaulter-plan. All the joys of home ownership without the bills.
Hi Garth, FYI anyone,
MythBuster: Why Electric Vehicles Beat Gas in 5 Extreme Tests
In a PopularMechanics.com exclusive….
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/transportation/4264025.html?nav=RSS20
By HARRY S on 10.31.08 11:16 am
Rex is right. If Ignatieff headsup the Liberal Party they will lose even more seats. But, does anyone care, except Liberals? This Centrist does not give a hoot what their Back Room Boys (and girls) come up with. However, if Iggy is made their leader they will NOT have any hope left of ever getting my vote.
Thanks for posting Rex Murphy’s piece.
A lot of news reports sound worried that Harper has handed out major portfolios to newcomers. They shouldn’t be. They won’t be making any decisions anyway. They should be worried that Harper will, however.
I watched them on the news last night. They didn’t look very happy. The months of lying and slime have taken their toll. No smiles (except for Flaherty). They gave Lunn the Sport Portfolio. That takes the toxic asbestos matter and hands it right to Ms. Raitt. Hmmmm…
Helena Guergis in Status of Women? Oh, puhleeze, give me a break. Remember her partying hearty in Mexico with embassy staff while the Canadian woman, Brenda Martin, rotted in a Mexican jail? She was actually supposed to be doing something about that while she was there, but the margaritas beckoned. Women, be very afraid!
Van Loan in Security? He looks like he’s about to explode any minute even without benefit of strapped-on explosives. I feel about as safe as when Doris Day was in that office.
All the stuff about smaller government has been thrown out the window. All those extra cabinet posts mean extra staff, extra limos, and extra money, to say nothing about extra “honourables” floating around. Putting “Hon.” in front of some of those names is the epitome of Orwell-speak. Joe McCarthy look-alike Moore finally got his limo, though. I hope he’s happy. But Harper had a lot of I.O.U.’s to pay to his loyal foot soldiers, and he’s got our tax money to do it with, so what the hell, eh?
Some breathless report yesterday said that the increased number of women in the cabinet should be seen as role models for women wanting to get into politics.
Somehow, taking jobs you aren’t qualified for, which you’ve obtained by spouting lies and mailing out slime to potential voters isn’t the kind of role model I’d recommend to my daughter.
I’d like to see a Canada where political debate replaces slime flinging, where character assassination is not considered a clever political trick, where crimes against electoral laws are prosecuted and perpetrators prevented from ever engaging in politics again – you know, democracy and rule of law.
Oh, yeah – Two Tier Tony in Industry? Jeebus Creeps, we’re in trouble.
Brent Fullard,
thanks for your 10:42 am reply. Looks like Whitby-Oshawa was the national campaign in a teacup – lots of CPC smoke that voters accepted because the LPC was not capable of blowing away.
Comparing 2008 to 2006 shows a sad big picture: 346,449 more eligible voters in 2008, but 984,187 fewer turned out than in 2006. Why? The CPC won – but with 168,737 fewer votes than in 2006! Why? The LPC received 849,425 fewer votes in 2008 than 2006. Why?
Working hypotheses:
1. No perceived urgency about this election, hence low voter interest and turnout.
2. The electorate is not in love with the CPC, but they won anyway – by default in the absence of a credible alternative.
3. The LPC has a serious problem with voter appeal. It was 19% more successful in 2006 when the Adscam albatross hung fresh around its neck!
Now, if the LPC had had a more marketable leader and plan, or if IT investors had stayed good and mad …
One more thing. I don’t usually have much time for Alec Baldwin but even the most unwholesome people say something right every once in a while.
He has a nickname for Sarah Palin.
It’s “Bible Spice”.
The worst part is that the bobbleheads will only get in the way of the proper functioning of their departments. There will be stuff for lots of sequels to Yes, Minister!
By Herb on 10.30.08 11:03 pm
So, Herb…you hate them all eh? Sad.
Brent, Have’nt you figured it out yet? CTV stands for Conservative Television.
For The National, I’m Rex Murphy.
By HARRY S on 10.31.08 11:16 am
Personally, I think the other RM, Rick Mercer hit the nail on the head on election night. He stated that given Harper’s personality, he wouldn’t last the term because he didn’t get a majority.
Remember, Harry, the best satire is always based on reality, Rick Mercer has studied his satirical “victims”. He knows them well.
and it gets better….
going forward 
Banks asking for credit card debt forgiveness
lenders would forgive up to 40% of debt
kewl!
hep me Flaherty, hep me, I tink I’m turning American, I really tink so!!
By C. B. Innes on 10.31.08 10:45 am
“The Austrian School is highly idealistic and based on assumptions that have not and probably cannot be verified.”
Huh??? How can a theory that begins by describing the very essence of the economic process as rooted in a standard, human behaviour of “need stuff to live” be “idealistic”? Gimme a break!! Just look at all the “other” theories. THEY are a JOKE.
Re: verification. Just like ANY other economic theory. That’s why it is called a theory. They are just models, they will NEVER be perfect. HOWEVER, this is the ONLY theory that has managed to explain AND forecast ALL the boondongles that “managed” (aka controlled) economies have created since…well.. since the beginning of written human history. Sometimes DECADES ahead of the debacle. How about THAT for proof? Beats the heck out of ALL the others.
“For example, your argument is based on a major fallacy: the concept of an “independent judiciary.” The Judiciary does not make the laws, its role is to interpret the laws. The laws are made by government. For that reason the judiciary is never independent of government.”
Sure, taking to an extreme ANYTHING is unworkable simply because there are no absolutes. OBVIOUSLY the judiciary cannot be “absolutely” independent, HOWEVER, from the Austrian point of view, they ARE independent where it matters, this is, to resolve CONTRACTUAL ISSUES between INDEPENDENT PARTIES. Private contracts are the BASIS of a sound, TRULLY FREE economy. Why? Because the Austrian school also requires a minimum or no governmental interaction with the economy. And, if sound money is OUT of their hands ALTOGETHER, why would the government do so? The government would have NO incentives to mess around with laws and make contract law biased. They have NOTHING to gain. And puleeeess don’t tell me that politicians are corruptable. If you use that argument then NO economic theory will EVER work. At some point in time, you have to accept a modicum of common sense and good administration. Particularly when ALL the economic levers are removed from their hands. So, categorically NO. An independent judiciary, where it counts, it IS possible.
“Another example is theory of competition. While there may be companies that could “do it better” when the marketplace is controlled by heavily capitalized private interests they can prevent competition from emerging by creating “crony” relationships. Just as these interests use governments to gain power, they can use private political relationships with each other to do the same thing.”
Here we go again. Chicken and the egg. In a competitive environment there can be NO heavy capitalized private interests controlling the marketplace since how EXACTLY did they managed to get there if there is competition breading on their necks? Competition would not allow it. However, even if for some misterious reason it would pass then we still have the independent judiciary enforcing competition laws. This is NOT complicated. A couple of laws usually are enough. Actually I believe that Canada has only one such Act and, if it would actually be enforced, it would do wonders to the marketplace!
“The purpose behind liberal democracy is to use the democratic process to prevent these private relationships from enslaving others. There is no doubt that democracy is constantly being subverted but that does not mean that it does not provide the best system of checks and balances.”
NOT really. You are confusing democracy with capitalism. Look this IS simple:
1- Comunism assumes human nature is good, but it has been subverted. Therefore until we reach “Nirvana” we need to be totally controled by the State.
2 – Capitalism assumes human nature is greedy. However, through the free market mechanism we can channel such greed for the betterment of society.
Democracy is NOT even in the picture. Democracy is simply an organizational framework for the creation of a government, which in its minimal expression, is necessary (according to the Austrians). Government should only set the minimum economic rules which are to be enforced by the judiciary. Democracy should not and cannot provide ECONOMIC checks and balances. The MARKET does that with infinite superiority than ANY government possibly can. Truly free market mechanisms are self-limiting. The screw-ups begin when Governments “know better”. So we end up in the Central Bank argument again, you are saying a bureucrat sitting in a room can dictate, for example, how high the price of milk can go? Better than a competitive market? What a joke! Gimme a break!
“It seems to me that the Austrian School advocates a more extreme version of what has caused the current crisis: subjective individualism.”
Ohhh…geeesshh… you are seriously misled.
What created this friggin mess is:
1 – E-Z money, which, I would like to remind you, was CREATED by the Government.
2 – Outdated, biased, stupid regulations that were CREATED by the Government.
Geeessshhh…. even my half blind cat can see THAT!!!
BY BRENT FULLARD 31.08 10:42 AM
Brent,
Thanks so much for the update to Herb. That is extremely interesting and confirms everything we’ve all thought… and even though I know it, it’s still weird to actually find out first hand how complicit CTV is !!!
And Brent, THANK YOU for running. You are a Canadian hero and you deserve endless thanks. I think your efforts will bring fruit for Canada one day, and I think in time it will be you who wins. Actually, you’ve won already, by demonstrating what a good Canadian is.
How about PM Fullard? You’d have my vote.
Hi Garth, FYI
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Waste Water to Be Bottled & Sold in India.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/10/hydrogen-fuel-cell-waste-water-bottled-sold-india.php
Hi Garth, FYI
Headlined on 10/31/08:
The End of Prosperity
by Stephen Lendman Page 1 of 5 page
http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-End-of-Prosperity-by-Stephen-Lendman-081031-243.html
Calberta,
I would also subscribe to that. Any particular favourite reading of his?
By Barb the proofreader on 10.31.08 12:38 pm
The only favorite of Sauls to me is Adrianne Clarkson but I do enjoy Saul’s thought process?
I asked Mr Dion’s office they sent me to the liberal party site but that no longer has the option to say where the money goes. So if someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it very much. Thank you
By judy roberts on 10.31.08 12:35 pm
By Phone
Judy, I googled Stephane Dion and on that site I got into the following:
https://www.liberal.ca/donate_e.aspx
Please call us anytime during regular business hours to make a donation at:
1-800-701-7789
I hope that helps!
Billpayer’s Anonymous
Hello, my name is PTBBD and I have a problem. My problem is that I just can’t help paying my bills. It’s a wicked, addicitve personal vice and must be stopped for me and my family to survive.
I look at Uncle John for guidance. He plays online poker every day and maxes out every possible credit card that comes in the mail. He then gets 40% debt forgiveness. Now there’s a true consumer taking advantage of all that the free market offers.
I am soooo happy that the children have not followed in my wayward footsteps. Linda and Charlie live in their swank homes and have the best of everything. No money down. The loss of their jobs has given them extra time to enjoy their various hobbies with accompanying tax write offs. Their new non-income status now also qualifies them for the fully paid upgrader package. Of course, their mortgage is govt. covered under the “forever foreclosure” package.
Now why didn’t I go out and buy that Jumbo-Mega-Mansion?
I have a deep rooted problem. I am a bill and tax payer.
“Required”,
Do you sell $1 wristbands to “save the Austrian School”??
Try to remember, your “Austrian School” doesn’t work for at least 2 reasons:
1. Fraud was not taken into account
2. Nor was the inherent fairness that society needs to function properly
(Ideologically driven motives behind it were also mysteriously overlooked)
By Required_Name on 10.31.08 2:23 pm,
You seem to have an anger management problem and a lack of respect for other people’s views.
The Austrian School itself is not a unified belief structure. You are promoting your version of the that school and it assumptions.
“How can a theory that begins by describing the very essence of the economic process as rooted in a standard, human behaviour of “need stuff to live” be “idealistic”?”
How much “stuff” does a person need to live? That is totally subjective. You assume that no one will try to abuse his or her ability to get more “stuff” especially money which is worthless beyond what it can purchase.
You say:
“Because the Austrian school also requires a minimum or no governmental interaction with the economy.” This is based on your assumption that government is something totally separate from the society in which it functions. How can you prove that there really can separate between these elements of society? While I would agree that there needs to be as much separation as possible between government and the economic players, they can never be independent of each other and it is idealistic to believe so.
Your total argument puts things in neat little non-interacting compartments. That is not the way the world works.
“In a competitive environment there can be NO heavy capitalized private interests controlling the marketplace since how EXACTLY did they managed to get there if there is competition breading on their necks?”
The whole system depends on a “free banking.” This system gives almost absolute power to the interests that control the banks which are the “heavily capitalized private interests.” Where they get their capital in the first place is not explained but generally the concept is based on an established aristocracy of financial and economic power.
The reason the system went out of control was that government delegated the power to create money to private financial institutions. It was the private banks that were given the ability to loan many times more than they held in assets (as much as 15 to 20 times as much). In fact, governments delegated the creation of what was essentially fiat money to the private banks.
As I understand it the Austrian School promoted “free banking” which does essentially the same thing except that anyone can set up as a bank and the money they issue is not backed by government. That suggests that the system would be as, or more, susceptible to a loss of trust as the system we now have.
Re: By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 10.31.08 1:16 pm
By HARRY S on 10.31.08 11:16 am
Rex is right. If Ignatieff heads up the Liberal Party they will lose even more seats. This Centrist does not give a hoot what their Back Room Boys (and girls) come up with. However, if Iggy is made their leader they will NOT have any hope left of ever getting my vote. Thanks for posting Rex Murphy’s piece.
……………………………………………….
Billy-Muskrat … why are you so adamantly opposed to Ignatieff leading the Liberals? As their next new leader his job will be to rebuild and renew the party by purging out all the old dog Liberals who are just constipating detritus that represent the old rot that corrupts the Liberal party.
Have you recently watched and listened to Goodale and McCallum spewing their horrendous vile bile on CBC TV?? This disasterous duo are so filled with hate they sound like demons rather than civil politicians. They view everything through blood-filled eyes and their only mission is to destroy destroy destroy. Canadians don’t want to listen to these two old demented failures. Iggy would purge them out of his Liberal party.
What the Liberals are obviously facing is sitting another 8-10 years in the Opposition sticks while they try to recover from the damage inflicted upon them by the old dog Liberals installing hapless Dion as party leader. The next leader must purge the Liberal party of the aged flops like Goodale, McCallum, Volpe, Dryden, Jennings, and more who are all tainted with the Chretien-Martin conflict and corruption.
Liberals must lie low for a long long time as they attempt to rebuild around a new leader, who, incidentally may not ever become prime minister but one of his chosen disciples may ….!!!!
BY CALBERTA 31.08 3:15 PM
Are you being funny? I have a dense cold, pity me.
I just found his website.
Pecked, is it too late for me to buy a mega-mansion?
~ BY CM 31.08 1:23 PM
CM,
I second that emotion.
IMF On The Ropes :
If many more country states need bailing out through the International Monetary Fund they may well go under .
Pakistan has now joined a long list of countries that includes the Ukraine and Iceland in defaulting .
British PM Gordon Brown has called for member states to increase their contributions to the fund ,appealing for help from countries still holding high foreign reserves, including China and oil-rich Middle Eastern states.
“Capital flight has made a number of countries potential victims of this crisis,” Brown said.
1944
Year the IMF was set up as a safety net for the central banks to avoid a possible future Great Depression.
$200 billion
Amount in the IMF, with access to an additional $50 billion.
2.93%
Portion of the IMF Canada is responsible for. IMF gets its money from member states on a set quota. The U.S. quota is 17.09 per cent.
$16.5 billion
The amount Ukraine is seeking for a bailout. Others seeking help are Iceland ($2 billion), Hungary ($10 billion), Poland ($12.8 billion) and Pakistan ($15 billion). Serbia, Belarus, Romania, Brazil and Turkey all have been said to be in contact with the IMF about possible bailouts.
All figures in U.S. dollars
Various sources
“Since I could see that the line in front of me at the supermarket was very long, and I could see that the stupid people around me were in sore need of education, I generously started into a loud one-sided discussion about the evils of a fiat currency, the demonic Federal Reserve and the despicable Congress when, suddenly, Gail (whose name tag cheerily said, “Hi! My name is Gail”) thrust a piece of paper into my hands with a snarl…..”
To CM (31.08 1:23 PM)
We need a party who strongly advocates changes in this direct. Who will it be?
I’m sorry, is this an echo chamber where Garth can preach to his minions of loyal, naive followers? Is this where all the conspiracy theory nuts and “HARPER IS A BUSH-LITE NEOCON THAT’S GOING TO IMPOSE A THEOCRACY!!” talking point loop machines congregate?
By Dennis Forbes on 10.31.08 9:32 am
No Dennis but nice try in trying to deflect the questions I asked. Now here’s another question for you & I really do expect to get an answer. Is it your goal to shoot the messenger? If you can’t agree somewhat on the issues posted by Mr. Turner & the responders, why even bothering to come to his site?
Now Dennis, if you can’t answer a few simple questions, don’t even bother wasting my time.
Cheers
Somewhere during my life, I’ve seen this before, and is it ever relevant today . . .
THOUGHT FOR THE DAY! (Courtesy wrh.com)
“We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can’t have both.” — Louis Brandeis, Supreme Court justice from 1916-1939
***********************************************************
When Delilah gave Samson a haircut, he lost all his strength.
When Sandy gave me a haircut this morning, all remaining kernels of intelligence I used to have disappeared into nothingness.
Now I am nothing more than a sad, worthless, pathetic yahoo, a tragically broken down toilet seat of a fuzzbox furball, a true legend in my own mind.
Where is my compadre, Little Johnny? I could sure use a friend!
****************************************
The final act of any corrupt govt. is to loot its citizens, leaving them with little or nothing and although a different country, this is one possibility why the IT swindle was carried out.
Most of us don’t even know it, but CRAP may well be looting Cdns. by spending at record levels on nothing over the past few years until we are as broke as the States — a designed plan.
Apparently, dubya’s family bought thousands of acres in Paraguay a while back, so will this be a convenient place to escape to when the shit hits the fan?
http://tinyurl.com/58bupe
****************************************
Speaking of the above, another reason why dubya’s dinosaurs could vent their misguided fury a someone else.
http://tinyurl.com/6loews
****************************************
Remember Boxing Day 2004?
There was a documentary; said all the animals fled to higher ground about a week prior to the tsunami.
Elders folk also noted something different — there were no waves, the sea was very quiet, dead calm and had gone out much further than normal.
Then the undersea ‘quake and the following mess.
Seems like the sea may be up to it’s old tricks again.
http://tinyurl.com/5epc8t
Leasa, Dear, I don’t hate them all – only the bobbleheads (and their party’s trolls.)
By HARRY S on 10.31.08 3:52 pm
Harry
In the past few days you seem to have become quite the expert on Liberals and liberals.
You called me a marxist because I believe in climate change and supported M. Dion in the last election.
You know nothing about liberals but you are quite comfortable in making sweeping genralizations about people.
So rather than making commentary what do you believe in?
And please don’t label me because I ask the question. What is your reason for being here?
BY DENNIS FORBES 31.08 9:32 AM
OH my gosh, I shouldn’t be surprised but you really are a paid Republican. It would be juicy if Garth revealed the source of your IP was stateside.
You have completely spun, ignored the facts and accused me of what you are up to, you Republican garbage planter.
Harper’s “NAFTAGATE TRICK” was to help the Republicans. Period. Don’t con-fuddle the truth with “this name or that” obfuscation. Your filthy neocon garble is getting kicked to the alley along with the rest of you. Unless, as they say, Diebold gets it’s way.
And just what bigotry are you accusing me of with an unfounded nutbar statement like that?
“Go McCain Go” is raging Canadian Garth Turner’s website, spreading patently false NeoConservative Talking Points?
Oh, right… Harper’s Reform/Alliance/New Canadian Conservative Party are the same people as the U.S. Republicans. They are collectively on a mission to pretend that all other parties are marxist and socialists so they can try to scare voters into the jaws of their extreme right wing intolerance.
McCain info – a truly loathsome man
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn10302008.html
BY CM 30.08 2:37 PM
CM,
Thanks for that link. He skates by on a kind but deceptive face, but the facts are facts, and he personally acknowledges much of that link in this CNN interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIX-XHlZFw
By Dennis Forbes on 10.30.08 11:52 am
>Actually, mortgage rates have been at a generational low level for a decade.
“Most variable rates have gone from 3% to North of 6%. The rise of rates has been in lockstep with the volatility of home prices.” – Dennis Forbes
So whats your point? Do you not know what the previous generation of interest rates was to compare and contrast? By your rebuttal, one can only assume that you either don’t really know what you are talking about or never did have the common sense to understand Garths point to begin with.
>The size of the debt, not just the rate, determines the cost of that debt. This, in turn, influences consumer
Yes, of course Garth. Yet at the outset of a normal mortgage people are paying over 75% interest. When that interest is doubled or trebled, the outcome is pretty obvious. – Dennis Forbes
It was oblivious to those who introduced 40 year mortgages in this country though, wasn’t it? What is just as oblivious to most of the rest is what Garth’s full point was. You cut it off.
>why was I alone in identifying it in Canada?
Do you really think this? – Dennis Forbes
Do you really think otherwise? I dare you to come up with a shortlist of people who were ringing alarm bells here in Canada 2 years ago. You would have found a short list of people sounding alarms in the U.S., but not here.
>Finally, does attacking some people who post on this open forum make you feel superior? Pathetic. — Garth
Yes, absolutely Garth. Given your snide little replies to many comments, clearly you enjoy it yourself, so save the high road for someone who deserves it. – Dennis Forbes
Could you further clarify? You feel Superior… you feel pathetic… or you feel both at the same time… which is it? Its not life or death, I just wanna know.
As for the rest, you might have a point if Garth ever did claim that particular high road but he doesn’t, other than to make claim to being too outspoken or admitting to hoof in mouth from time to time, feeling the guilt when appropriate, and far more appropriately so, making claim to host a blog for:
“Current political events, Business, Real Estate, Financial & Economic news, trends and, above all, the Future.”
Otherwise, heres some unsolicited advice for you Dennis. If you really want to be effective in terms of running people down try putting their real words in their mouths, not just making shit up as you go and sluffing it off as real. Try the truth if you sense that delivering putdowns is your calling but if you can’t pony up with at least that much and you decide to post on a regular basis Dennis, best get used to being mocked as a common bore ’cause the world is already full of them.
Don’t believe the polls. americans will NEVER elect a marxist or socialist, whatever you want to call Obama, to the White House.
by GO MCCAIN GO 30.08 5:36PM
You’re correct, they would never elect a Marxist or a Socialist. But Obama is niether of these, he’s a Democrat.
Its a perception problem. The Republicans are so far to the right, especially with Gov. Palin, anyone else would look like a Marxist or Socialist to them.
Of course, it could be worse; they could be labelling him a Communist!
By PTDBD on 10.31.08 4:31 pm
I wonder if they get it? Probably not.
What did the amoeba say to the dust myte?
Who did you vote for?
Why did the liberal try to cross the road?
Because the yellow bricks shone brightly in the mid day sun.
Why did the Conservative try to cross the road? >>
You knew it was a trick question. Right?
Like a Conservative would ever cross the road. Too risky. They might just meet a liberal in the middle of that damned road.
Then what?
Imagine this. Neither with a gun, a stick or a rock. Just the two of them, face to face in the middle of the road.
Imagine.
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…
You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world…
Such a beautiful dreamer. They kill people like him.
Garth …. we all know you are a fiscal conservative, but are you still a member of the Liberal party … or have you returned to your “independent” roots now that you are a private citizen ..??!!!
The reason I ask is to find out if you will be supporting anybody for next Liberal leader or are you out of the political game altogether.
Re: By Bonnie N BC on 10.31.08 6:28 pm
Harry — In the past few days you seem to have become quite the expert on Liberals and liberals.
You know nothing about liberals but you are quite comfortable in making sweeping genralizations about people.
So rather than making commentary what do you believe in?
What is your reason for being here?
……………………………………………….
Bonnie …. I am a Canadian. I have even voted Liberal in the distant past. I am cognizant of Canadian politics. I believe in democracy. I believe in open discourse. I oppose those who would limit and even censor political debate as you seem to want on this fine forum (For Liberals Only Forum). I am here at the pleasure of our host The Honourable Garth Turner – now an independent Canadian.
If you have difficulty with that, please contact Garth and stop posting your silly drivel attacking me …
The news from the U.S. keeps getting uglier.
http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2008/10/31/houseunder.html
But its different in Canada. Everyone will see cause Flarehty said so. We shouldn’t worry our pretty little canadian heads about a thing. We’ve got Jim Flarehty “closely monitoring” things. We are “headed for a modest surplus” as Flarehty says and we all know how Jim can be fully trusted.
Its funny how the real world is predicting a recession and even the average Joe has noticed a barrel of oil worth half of its peak while Ontario wonders where its manufacturing and construction jobs have gone and Harper & Flarehty just 3 weeks ago said things are… good!
Well… I guess they would have to say these things since they preached things were fine before the election. And the economist Harper, he’s telling everyone that shares are cheaper and since Canadians are rich, we should all just buy some more! (lol, thats about as funny as the poster who said a couple days back the credit freeze was definitely beginning to thaw! Mortgage rates are rising in the face of fed rates down to 1% and genius’s call that a thaw… LOL!!)
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20081031%2fEconomy_081031
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Home/ContentPosting?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20081031%2fgdp_report_081031&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True
Well… I guess they would have to say these things since they preached things were fine before the election.
By brain on 11.01.08 12:19 am
Have you noticed the subtle change in Harper and Flaherty’s message?
Before and during the election, don’t worry, things are good. Now its we’re in a better position to weather the storm.
Is reality starting to set in with these two?
I think he sums it up pretty well.
The Crash: a malevolent theory in ruins
RALPH SURETTE
Sat. Nov 1 – 4:46 AM
AS ONE of that small band of grumblers who has been saying for decades that the whole thing doesn’t add up – either economically or environmentally – allow me my little rant now that, in fact, it didn’t add up and that it all came crashing down.
In addition to the FBI being on a hunt for criminal wrongdoing in the wreckage of Wall Street’s financial titans, raising the cheering possibility that our friend Conrad Black will have some more company of his own ilk in jail, we’re getting some big confessions that underline the enormity of what has transpired.
The main one has been delivered by Alan Greenspan, former maestro of the U.S. Federal Reserve, promoter of financial deregulation and lower taxes for the rich, and disciple of greed-is-good diva Ayn Rand. In words that will no doubt live on, he said last week: “I made a mistake in presuming that the self-interest of organizations, specifically banks and others, was such that they were best capable of protecting their own shareholders and their equity in the firms.” Well, duh. Or as Aristotle said: “The avarice of mankind is insatiable.”
Not all have repented, mind you. President George W. Bush, after he invaded Iraq, exhorted Americans to “keep spending, otherwise the terrorists win.” Now that pigging-out on credit has crashed the economy, how long will we have to wait before he ’fesses up that, according to his definition, the terrorists have won?
The peculiar notion that greed, uncompromising self-interest, beggaring one’s neighbour, and letting the devil take the hindmost, not to mention promoting rampant waste, is somehow a positive vision for society is what has imploded (again). Or, as economist John Maynard Keynes, architect of the post-Depression economic order, put it: “Capitalism is the extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men, for the nastiest of reasons, will somehow work for the benefit of us all.”
It becomes even more strange when you consider that one of the pillars of all this is the North American Christian fundamentalist movement, which is the background of, among others, Prime Minister Stephen Harper and President Bush. How greed, the fourth deadly sin in the Judeo-Christian order, could be considered such a good thing by the Christian right is something else I’m waiting to have explained.
And there’s a deeper dimension still. Keynes and his ideas of government regulating financial institutions, more public spending to stimulate the economy during times of recession or depression, and picking up the poor with welfare state measures, were overturned some 30 years ago in the seats of power by the hyper-free-enterprise theories of Milton Friedman of the University of Chicago. It’s his prescriptions, and largely his disciples, that cut regulations for financial institutions and taxes for the rich which have largely precipitated the present crisis.
But beneath that still was a dimension that was actively malevolent. In the book The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism, which made a splash earlier this year, author Naomi Klein outlines the way the Chicago School operated, and explains the theory it spread: Take advantage of disasters and crises – economic, social or natural – when people are confused and hurting to strike and impose the new privatized order.
It was the script followed when 9-11 gave Bush the green light to invade Iraq, a pre-planned action, and the “creative chaos” that followed the invasion to the immense profit of military contractors. It was the script followed throughout Latin America during the Reagan-Thatcher years, when hyperinflation created by the debts of dictators led to crises in which newly elected governments were destroyed by counter-coups, with the “Chicago boys” directing policies of destroying public services, selling off government assets to cronies, grinding the poor into the dirt; and for those who disagreed, there was the torture chamber. This has been the dominant theory in most of the world, applied by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, until the bubble burst.
Now it’s in ruins. Ironically, we now have the biggest crisis of all – thanks to the construct of this very theory collapsing, leaving the uncertain question: What now? Meanwhile, at the University of Chicago, there was a large public demonstration recently against naming a new building after Friedman.
( rsurette@herald.ca)
Ralph Surette is a veteran freelance journalist living in Yarmouth County.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1087963.html
Of course, it could be worse; they could be labelling him a Communist!
By James – Chatham on 10.31.08 8:20 pm
Believe me, if the Rethuglicans, and especially the Karl Rove Back Room Boys running the McCain campaign could get away with it they would be using the ‘N’ word, not the ‘S or ‘M’ word to demean Barack Obama. They have this little problem though called the Black Vote, and they need every single vote to keep from being tossed on history’s scrap heap of in a massive landslide victory by Obama as LOSERS!
I remember clearly how Americans were taught that Canada is a Pinko-Commie Country’ all through the Cold War because Canada had the cajones to do something for its own people instead of the mega-corps military/industrial complex.
People think they saw the underbelly of America during Hurricane Katrina…They have not even gotten a glimpse of how undemocratic, bigoted, xenophobic, and utterly dispicable America really is in some areas. World Leader? LMAO! World Class Hypocrite is more accurate.
Canada has a lot of the same, only the media treats it as okay because we are more ‘civilized.’
Cut the bullshit, Hairy. You are a “Conservative” troll whose only aim in hauting Garth’s blog is to divert and disturb by generating flak in support of your CPC.
It’s got dick to do with democracy, but everything with partisan politics.
Billy-Muskrat … why are you so adamantly opposed to Ignatieff leading the Liberals?
By HARRY S on 10.31.08 3:52 pm
Well, Harry The Hairball (etu Brutus), simply because Ignatieff is WRONG for Canada. He is an American Hawk in his heart, cold, vicious in nature, and arrogant. In fact, I think he is as cold and selfish as Harper. He is a pseudo intellectual who thinks he is superior to everyone. He is NOT!
He may fool you, and others, but he does not fool me. You blather on about Obama being a threat to Canada, and yet support Ignatieff who is an Internal threat to Canada and its values.
Honestly Harry, I don’t think your brain is normal because you can’t see your own bigotry.
He has a nickname for Sarah Palin.
It’s “Bible Spice”.
By CM on 10.31.08 1:58 pm
ROFLMAO! That is DEFINITELY ACCURATE!
By Calberta on 10.31.08 11:29 am
I do not think Saul was ‘blaming it on the aboriginals’, he was merely stating a reality like saying ‘The sky is blue!’
Glad you, too, have read him. He has a better handle on Canaidan values and reality than any of the politicians I have seen.
Oh, well, the masses are easily led to believe things because they think democracy is a non-participatory ideology.
Oddly, reading some of the mis-informed tripe that echoes the republican Party’s mantra, I am not surprised by current events. Karl Marx, as a aprime example, relaized that the people are in it together, and that each has a vital role to play. His thesis has never actually been put into practice, but many mutanations of it have been tried.
If he erred it was in having faith in his fellow mankind to be rational, thoughtful, and considerate of their fellow human beings. People generally are not. Especially, western White’s who have come to think of themselves as ‘naturally superior’. They are NOT either.
Like Howard Houseman said in the ‘Paper Chase’ about the newbie law students ‘Yopu come here with your heads filled with mush, and will leave thinking like a lawyer!’ God save us all from such ignorant and arrogant thinking that makes the world into a simplistic Black & White falsehood.
Between religion and lawyers we find the oppressed of society, and it is those two groups who are to blame for most of the woes people experience. So, what do we do? Elect them to power so they can formalize their insanity upon us all.
I have long held that a lawyer should be ineligble for elected public office due to a conflict of between the Constitutional branches of government (U.S. style) in that one can not be a member of both the judicial and legislative branch at the same time. But the Congress, and much of our Parliament is made up of lawyers. Now we se the influx of the neo-con Far Right Funnymentalists wanting to write laws for everyone. How stupid can we get?
Garth you’ve done a fine job of defining what we should fear in the current economy, now, tell us, what are your proposed solutions?
If you had been prime minister instead of Mr. Harper (or Finance Minister instead of Mr. Flaherty), what would you have done differently?
New here? — Garth
How stupid can we get?
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.01.08 10:07 am
Just look at CRAP “Stupid is as stupid does”
For starters we do not know how the voters will react to who ever the Liberals elect as their new leader. Things are changing fast and there is a world wide movement to deflation and a pull from the Winds of War. The US of A is in very serious trouble, with an National Debt soon to reach $11 Trillion with another $3 trillion for new equipment and long tern health care for the wounded. Canadian cost will well exceed $18 Billion for very same reasons. My once proud RCN/Navy is close to the breaking point having only recruited a handful of skilled people over the past year and a release rate not seen in decades. It is evident that most 70% of Canadians did not believe Harper. Should Harper attack the Senate once again he may nail his coffin shut, because the words posted by Garth Turner.ca are words that strike the heart of middle class and want action now and are sick of hearing blame….PMSH can not blame the past government for he is the past government. So hang on it is going to be one hell of ride down this world wide roller coaster of deflation.
(J.M. Keyes, cited in Go Green’s 8:53 am)
That kind of says it all. So where do we go from there?
(Hint: nowhere. There will be gnashing of teeth and screams of pain, but the essential distribution and operation of wealth and power will not change. The middle class and poor will get poorer, as will the wealthy and powerful. But the latter will still wield proportionally more power, and happily stay in control of economic, financial and political systems. For the rest of us it will be All pain, no gain.)
thank you Truth for that infomation. I personally believe that Stephane Dion did not fail the liberal party but that the party failed Dion. Now I’m waiting for the new leadership candidates to come out with some new visionary policies.This is not the time to stay with the same old same old. We need a new strong liberal party.
By Herb on 11.01.08 11:05 am
Never forget they rely upon the masses to purchase their wares, and without that, they are NOTHING!
Which is why we must always protect our healthcare against privitization…the last refuge of the heartless, greedy ones who only see themselves as worthy of survival. People will ALWAYS need healthcare, but not non-necessities. Same goes for medicines, which are a multi-billion dollar industry.
If caring about my fellow human beings, and wanting them to have all the opportunity for normal success and life possible is socialistic, then I AM a Socialist! But then, I see the connections between poverty and crime, poverty and health,poverty and community functionality. Harper, Bush,. McCain, and their ilk do NOT! it is simply impossible for them to see others. We are all Cellophane Men and Women to them. ‘Walk right by me, look right through me, and never know I’m there!’
They accomplish it by corporate policies that put the workers at the bottom and the shitheads at the top.
Just look at CRAP “Stupid is as stupid does”
By Captain George on 11.01.08 10:33 am
The Liberals were not any better, just more benign.
Harry S
Some time ago, if I understood you correctly, you put forward 2 propositions – 1) that the federal civil service is composed entirely of liberal party supporters, and 2) that there are far too many people employed in the federal civil service.
I am not concerned about the first because that is self-evidently arrant nonsense. The second proposition bears discussion though.
How do you define a member of the federal public service?
By judy roberts on 11.01.08 11:21 am
The libs need a White Knight and I am not referring to the “Rae of Hope”. We need someone with zero baggage to entice the 40% of non-voters out there. I am giving a big yawn to the current prospects.
Bonnie …. I am a Canadian. I have even voted Liberal in the distant past. I am cognizant of Canadian politics. I believe in democracy. I believe in open discourse. I oppose those who would limit and even censor political debate as you seem to want on this fine forum (For Liberals Only Forum). I am here at the pleasure of our host The Honourable Garth Turner – now an independent Canadian.
If you have difficulty with that, please contact Garth and stop posting your silly drivel attacking me …
By HARRY S on 10.31.08 10:36 pm
Harry
I agree with everything you say except that I have attacked you au contraire -I believe you called me a Marxist and did not reflect Canadian values. Neither is true or a fair assessment that you are more Canadian than I.
However, I am willing to forgive and forget if you are willing to do the same.
So what would you like to debate?
Hi Garth, FYI anyone, (Growing food)
This week on CBC radio show,
Quirk and quarks,
(You can down load show.)
http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/08-09/qq-2008-11-01.html
Vertical Farming. (and more.)
Look — up in the sky! It’s a bird, it’s a plane … no, it’s a farm! That might sound preposterous, but a number of scientists, architects and engineers feel that the best place for the farms of the future may be within the glass walls of looming city skyscrapers. It’s an idea called vertical farming…..
~ BY JUDY ROBERTS 01.08 11:21AM
Judy, I feel the same way and I hope they take your advice. I’ve emailed the Liberals with similar sentiments for the past couple of weeks. I’ve also emailed M. Dion. Who knows. Maybe they’ll listen to us? In the meantime, I’m just glad it’s Dion who is the leader.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.01.08 9:46 am,
It is not surprising that a neo- conservative supporter would see Ignatieff, a neo-liberal, as a leader for the Liberal Party. It fits with their concept of hierarchy and class based entitlement.
But the Congress, and much of our Parliament is made up of lawyers. Now we se the influx of the neo-con Far Right Funnymentalists wanting to write laws for everyone. How stupid can we get?
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.01.08 10:07 am
Bill, one of the problems encountered when the bob Rae NDP won in Ontario was that there was only a half dozen lawyers amongst them. This is a serious handicap from the stand point that the legislation must be crafted and drafted by competent wordsmiths. The first place this becomes evident is in the courts when inappropriately worded laws get struck down by the Judiciary. The second point is that those elected to office ought to have a proven ability to prepare and present logical arguments for and against given proposed legislative enactments. A university degree is not a prerequisite for leadership and representation of ones peers in Parliament, but it is a very good indicator of talent and track record.
The most important criteria for office in my opinion is the ability and desire to use one’s talent to their best effort at analysing and supporting good laws as well as countering bad legislation.
No one owns Canada or the World for that matter, but there are too many who act as if they have title deed to the resources, lives and futures of all of us. There is an unspoken message in this last election that is being ignored so far: Many voters did NOT like or support what was being presented or how it was presented! Just speak to some of the strangers in your local grocery store and also some of the clerks and listen to what they have to say. NONE OF THESE POLITICIANS REPRESENT ME, THEY JUST PROMISE THE MOON AND STARS, BUT ONCE THEY ARE ELECTED THEY FORGET YOU AND ME AND CARRY ON AS IF WE THE PEOPLE DON’T EXIST OR MATTER!
This forebodes several things:
-it is not business as usual for Liberals whether large of small “L”!
-expect fund raising to be even more didicult than before
-until and unless this party gets the with the program [rebirth....re-incarnation....re-justification......] it will wither and die of bankruptcy both financial and morale [not moral] because it is currently lacking in mandate, and fails to reflect the wants and needs of the people it is trying to represent.
To the party’s organizers, I have ten dollars adjusted for inflation [$11.50] or what ever in my pocket for a membership and I have offered the same on line, but by cheque only. Regardless of whether you accept it, you will hear more from me on this subject!
WE NEED A PARTY OF SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITY TO LISTEN TO THE AVERAGE PERSON ON THE STREET AND REPRESENT THEM, NOT THE SELF DELUDING PARTY DREAMERS WHO HAVE LOST SIGHT OF WHY THE PARTY EXISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE! If that hurts and insults, then ignore it and suffer the consequences. History is littered with also rans and has beens!
As Bill Maher say : “If i attack Obama, I’m not attacking all Black people, like when I’m attacking Bush, I’m not attacking all retarded people”
Love the above quote. One could also replace Bush with Palin.
Inside the bag of dirty election tricks
The final week of a presidential campaign is usually the roughest, and this election is no exception. An apparent attempt to suppress the vote has been uncovered in Virginia – a traditionally safe Republican state where Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama now holds a healthy lead.
A flier is being circulated in the Hampton Roads area telling supporters of Obama’s Democratic party that they should vote on Nov. 5 – which is actually the day after the election.
To read more see:
http://observers.france24.com/en/content/20081028-inside-bag-dirty-election-tricks-corruption-us-election-vote
As long as Liberal leadership contenders are being mentioned, of the current lot, I like Rae. Reason: he’s been there and done that during tough economic times. It’s the sadder but wiser politician for me.
Truth B Told
I agree that properly worded legislation minimizes legal interpretation, I wouldn’t place too much faith in the work of lawyers. I believe that the Criminal Code still contains the following as the definition of stealing; “For the pruposes of this act stealing is moving, or beginning to move, or beginning to casue to become movable an article with intent to steal.”
Now I admit I am not a lawyer, but that doesn’t sound very precise to me.
Re: By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.01.08 9:46 am
Well, Harry, Ignatieff is WRONG for Canada. He is an American Hawk in his heart, cold, vicious in nature, and arrogant. In fact, I think he is as cold and selfish as Harper. He is a pseudo intellectual who thinks he is superior to everyone. He is NOT!
Billy … how did you determine that Ignatieff was a “pseudo intellectual”? How do you know Ignatieff is “cold, vicious, arrogant, selfish”? How is your judgement superior to that of Ignatieff’s? ’splain please ….!!!
……………..
He may fool you, and others, but he does not fool me. You blather on about Obama being a threat to Canada, and yet support Ignatieff who is an Internal threat to Canada and its values.
Why can’t Igantieff “fool” you? Are you privy to information that would protect you from being made a fool ??
As for Obama, he’s on the public record saying he will unilaterally re-negotiate NAFTA when he was campaigning in Ohio (notwithstanding the denials of his goons). Obama has called NAFTA “devastating” and “a big mistake” … he’s a protectionist who is ready to alienate the US’s BIGGEST trading partner – CANADA.
I don’t sense Ignatieff as an “internal threat to Canada and it’s values” .. as you claim in your patent fearmongering manner. However I do believe, and have ample evidence, that Obama is a threat to Canada and in particular to Ontario’s manufacturing base. An Obama administration with the support of both Democrat-controlled Houses will suck auto jobs out of Ontario and relocate them in Michigan where Obama is beholden to the big US unions.
………………
Honestly Harry, I don’t think your brain is normal because you can’t see your own bigotry.
Me bigotted (i.e. intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself) .. I think not. Perhaps you are confusing me with the likes of Herb and Bonnie, who on this very topic thread are posting insulting comments against me and not even attempting to counter what I posted .. and advocating an only-Liberal forum. Are you doing that against me and Ignatieff …??? Seems like it … and that would put you in the “bigot” category … but unfortunately you can’t see your own bigotry.
Canada has a lot of the same, only the media treats it as okay because we are more ‘civilized.’
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.01.08 9:21 am
Well, look who owns the media.
“nuf said.
Thanks Barb for your 12.24 reply. I did the same thing and even emailed two of our local liberal members of parliment one answered the other didn’t. At the moment I’m very angry with the party so that was why I was looking for info re Mr Dion’s debt.
If you had been prime minister instead of Mr. Harper (or Finance Minister instead of Mr. Flaherty), what would you have done differently?
New here? — Garth
By just curious on 11.01.08 10:32 am
no idea, eh ? that’s what I thought.
Just don’t fel like typing it all again. Surely you are as good as research as you are at taunts. — Garth
Canada has a lot of the same, only the media treats it as okay because we are more ‘civilized.’
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.01.08 9:21 am
Yep, we still live in Northern Canukistan and proud of it!
A few years ago, I visted New Orleans, a long lime before Katrina. As I like to walk, I went from the Hyatt attached to the Dome, down to Bourbon Street via the business district.
On the way back, I made the mistake of coming back a different way, ending up along side the freeway. Cross the road, a whole different world. Needless to say, I walked fast, very fast.
Incidentally, just caught McCain spreading the lies about Obama sitting down, unconditionally, with America’s enemies, in particular Iran. The guy must have alzeihmers; as Obama was quite specific about how such talks would occur, starting with the low level diplomats without condition. As with all these things, the high level, president to president doesn’t happen until agreement has almost been reached, if not fully reached.
Obama would do the right thing, talk without sabre rattling. McCain/Palin don’t understand that other countries have differing values and that if its not American, it must be wrong.
Not saying Iran’s values are right, but you can’t just dismiss them out of hand without understanding them first. It global McCarthy’ism!
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.01.08 9:46 am
Bill if I could step in for a second. Personally I don’t care what the liberals do very much…haven’t cared since I stopped voting for them after I bought the promise to scrap the GST & Free Trade. However, in my opinion the Liberals two front runners are wrong, wrong, wrong. Iggy has worked outside of Canada for 35 years…Now he wants to be our Prime Minister??? Bob…oh, Bob. Seems in the last election people were dropping out left, right and center for little things like appearing naked in public…Bob thought it was in good taste to appear naked on national t.v. I for one do not want footage of my Prime Minister running bare-assed. (grossed me out), then we have the fiasco of the Rae Days…a tanking economy so terribly handled that he left office in humiliation.
Well…maybe as a CPC supporter I wouldn’t mind either one of them leading the Liberals. LOL
“For the pruposes of this act stealing is moving, or beginning to move, or beginning to casue to become movable an article with intent to steal.”
Now I admit I am not a lawyer, but that doesn’t sound very precise to me.
By William Laidlaw on 11.01.08 2:29 pm
Neither am I a lawyer, but from my perspective that wording is purposely wide and broad to encompass various cases which include caught in the act and conspiracy to attempt to purloin as well as the fait au complis.
This the very reason that lawyers with both the training and the experience of case histories are needed to draft the particular verbiage, how ever verbose, that is necessary for the Justice of the Peace right up to the Supreme Court Judges to be able to nail down the deed(s). The compendium of legal case histories of past judgments has a huge impact on the presentation of any current case or defense from a law suit.
The proceeding also depends on the abilities of the lawyers to present the facts in a clear understandable way, ask the correct questions of witnesses, and summate their presentation to the jury. It is the jury’s responsibility to decide if the Crown has proven the case for guilt and not is the person guilty regardless of the facts and testimony. Those may be two different situations!
Remember, retiring Cdn. Chief Justice Willard Estes was quoted in the media as stating: “Juries get it right 97.7% of the time!” And furthermore it is my understanding that most of these wordings of legislation are in fact drafted by the civil service staff of the minister responsible for that department of the government concerned with the subject at hand. We have heard of cases where the HoC Committee Members and even the Minister responsible for the bill being discussed have not read nor comprehended the full presentation. This is why it is so important for voters to screen and audit whom they are electing. There are scam artists in all walks of life, some of them have university degrees that may not have been properly earned. How can a fully trained lawyer as Minister of Defense treat confidential documents with such a casual and bizarre attitude? Especially when some of those documents were numbered and required to be signed back in!
Remember the axiom, “If you can not produce, teach, if you cannot teach, go into politics”! There is often much truth in humor, and humor in truth.
If you had been prime minister instead of Mr. Harper (or Finance Minister instead of Mr. Flaherty), what would you have done differently?
New here? — Garth
By just curious on 11.01.08 10:32 am
no idea, eh ? that’s what I thought.
Just don’t fel like typing it all again. Surely you are as good as research as you are at taunts. — Garth
By just curious on 11.01.08 3:51 pm
it was an honest question. about time all your fartcatchers here saw you for the phony you are.
Gee, I did not leap to the bait of an anonymous troll. What a loser I’ve become. Now, buzz off. — Garth
Not saying Iran’s values are right, but you can’t just dismiss them out of hand without understanding them first. It global McCarthy’ism!
By James – Chatham on 11.01.08 4:15 pm
In all its WORST aspects!
Harry,
So apparently I am now a bigot. Let’s recap shall we: Marxist, does not reflect Canadian values and now a bigot.
Now, I am accused of advocating only Liberal views on this blog. Absolutely untrue, false and fabricated. You sir, are someone who intends to incite anger to this blog rather than debate.
End of conversation.
By Leasa on 11.01.08 5:27 pm
The candidate who dropped out for taking his cloths off was not the issue. It was that he took his cloths off in front of minors, was what made it the issue.
Leasa: So you continue to vote for the party that brought in the GST and Free Trade??? The 2 policies you abhor??
And if you disqualify all future P.M. candidates who have appeared on satirical comedy shows you will be left with no one to support. Lighten up.
The manipulation of the masses has been going on ever since the beginning of society.
First we had the united order and tribalism, you know it takes a village to raise a child -now it is full blown manipulative consumerism -dog eat dog or rat eat rat depending on where you live. A society based on selfishness is easy to manipulate and divide using fear and smear. We see it everywhere now in our North American Society. Is there anyone left dedicated to the common good? Or we all doomed to reap what we individually continue to sow in the name of might and right?
Lettuce cee iv aye kan mayke sum cents ov theesss . . .
“. . . bullshit, Hairy. . . dick . . . brain is normal . . . Bible Spice . . . stupid . . . ” — Herb, 9:23 am; Bill-Muskoka (not anymore), 9:46 am and 10:07 am; CM, 1:58 pm
Wottabout — dick spicy hairy normal shit stupid bull brain?
Einstein, I understand, had the basics of the THEORY of relativity, and change is one constant which is proven each day, so relativity exists in one way or another.
On the other hand, hairy has yet to be PROVEN as a theory; he has not yet evolved past the precursors to the dinosaur and hence, no one is sure whether hairy is a living conspiracy theory!
Peach cobbler with blueberry ice cream for moi, nuts for hairy as he swings from tree to tree.
None of the following belongs to any conspiracy theory. First two run along the same vein, but a short intro. first . . .
“Mr. Obama, under the tutelage and supervision of “neolib” Zbigniew Brzezinski, has openly stated, but not widely reported in the corporate mass media, that he wants to move many U.S. troops out of Iraq into Afghanistan for more fighting there. Why? . . . Mr. Brzezinski is the Democrat soulmate of Dick Cheney: both want wars without end for their masters in the U.S. corporate military industrial complex, . . .”
http://tinyurl.com/67m8lt
http://tinyurl.com/6cxayx
****************************************
A few days back, I posted a link which said Oz was going to censor the ‘net, and the UK may try this as well.
http://tinyurl.com/5oyvxw
****************************************
Well, we just elected another one govt. of the same, so we can only expect more of the same.
http://tinyurl.com/6a6uds
****************************************
Catch a flight with this person? Ummm, no thanks!
http://tinyurl.com/5j3zuz
BTW, the glass factory in Lavington pays about $200,000 / yr. in property taxes. That, along with 300 jobs is history now.
The “ripple theory”, where other small businesses close as there is no one to do business with, will probably take effect in the new year.
So with all this happening, one has to wonder: If businesses shut down because of finances, who will make up the shortfall of unpaid property taxes? Homeowners? What if they sell then rent — no property taxes to pay?
One more headline: Cash USED to be king, but as cash becomes worthless over the next few years, gold, silver and platinum will be king, queen and jack.
It is not surprising that a neo- conservative supporter would see Ignatieff, a neo-liberal, as a leader for the Liberal Party. It fits with their concept of hierarchy and class based entitlement.
By C. B. Innes on 11.01.08 12:32 pm
Perfectly stated. Thank you!
Hairy, what you write does not need countering – it refutes itself. But you know that.
Are we all doomed to reap what we individually continue to sow in the name of might and right?
By Calberta on 11.01.08 9:13 pm
I had a most fascinating afternoon. We had a family get together, and I sat sharing thoughts with several others. One was 87 years old, a former Canadian, now American citizen, who fought with the Canadian Forces in WWII. He lives in California, and we both found it amazing how similar we are despite being a generation apart.
We found that we both share the same views of Canada and the U.S. and see the same solutions. Two Veterans of two different wars, two different countries, who have basically swapped places, yet we are both able to see the similarities and differences.
I wish our Parliament had that ability, because we could truly be Moving Forward.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1087963.html
BY GO GREEN ON 11.01.08 8:53 AM
Finally, grumblers are having their day (good, we can get on with starting anew).
Thanks for posting that Go Green.
By Marc on 11.01.08 6:28 pm
Hi Marc, But, Marc, don’t minors watch t.v.? What’s the difference? That footage is out there, it’s not exactly ‘Prime Ministerial’ now is it?
By Judy on 11.01.08 8:04 pm
Don’t worry Judy, I really don’t take things too seriously. The GST & Free Trade lie was minor and in time I could have looked past that. That just rolled into things like the tainted blood scandal, Shawinigate and on and on it went relentlessly.
Don’t forget to change the batteries in your smoke detectors!
Night.
BY BILL-MUSKOKA (NOT ANYMORE) 01.08 9:21AM
Bill,
I really appreciate your comment. I recall those days.. those sentiments.
I’ve always reflected on the differences between my mother’s country and my father’s. But that was it, wasn’t it.
It explains a lot. Our people aren’t as repressed (not yet). Maybe that’s why we have so much talent per capita, comedic talent, innovations, inventors.. because freer minds and hearts resulted when we took the time to care about each other and tried to resist the ridiculous model of greed and cheating. I think Canadians are in fact more proud of themselves than our U.S. cousins.
BY JAMES – CHATHAM 31.08 8:20PM
Or a Bolshevik!
Re: By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.01.08 9:46 am,
It is not surprising that a neo- conservative supporter would see Ignatieff, a neo-liberal, as a leader for the Liberal Party. It fits with their concept of hierarchy and class based entitlement.
Re: By C. B. Innes on 11.01.08 12:32 pm
As long as Liberal leadership contenders are being mentioned, of the current lot, I like Rae. Reason: he’s been there and done that during tough economic times. It’s the sadder but wiser politician for me.
Re: By Herb on 11.01.08 1:46 pm
………………………………………………………………
The consensus on this forum seems to be that Ignatieff is too rightwing to lead the Liberal party … but Bob Rae would neatly fit the bill since he is to the left of centre.
Yes, Bob Rae may well be the next leader of the struggling Liberal party, but that would cause many Liberals to flee the party rather than be associated with Bob Rae … like Ignatieff .. our Garth Turner .. and other principled and centrist Liberals.
If Liberals decide to enthrone Bob Rae as their next leader, the next logical step would be to unite the Left with a Liberal-NDP merger. That would seem to be the obvious solution .. but what is not so obvious is that Jack Layton would surely be the leader of the NLP – the New Liberal Party … because Jack Layton was the second most popular party leader next to Harper. Bob Rae would have to step aside .. just like MacKay did ….!!!
The extremist right and left in both parties would leave to find a new political home. Just imagine .. Jack Layton the saviour of the Liberal Left.
Is there anyone left dedicated to the common good? Or are we all doomed to reap what we individually continue to sow in the name of might and right?
By Calberta on 11.01.08 9:13 pm
Thats what is now a dirty word.
They call it “socialism” with a sneer.
Not for a second realizing that working for the good of ALL is what Christ taught.
Not “Get it now, before anyone else can”.
The GST is a tax and Free Trade is business…..been going on many moons and will continue to go on for ever. The real things that count like health, education and the well being of our communities is what really matters most. Think? We have now dropped in our standing as one of the best countries to live in and who has been minding the store?
If Liberals decide to enthrone Bob Rae as their next leader, the next logical step would be to unite the Left with a Liberal-NDP merger.
By HARRY S on 11.01.08 11:56 pm
Center-left – in my opinion – is the wrong place for the Liberal party. They have been center left since the last few years of the Chretien era, and have been losing seats ever since.
The Liberals should be either “true center” or “center right”. Focus on social liberty and fiscal prudence.
People can spin the last election as “70% rejecting Harper,” but whether we like it or not, enough people who bothered to vote, voted enough for Harper that he leads.
The “fluid” votes are in the center. The hard right will ALWAYS vote CPC. The hard left will ALWAYS vote NDP.
If the Liberals choose Rae, and go left, then former PC’ers like me will have no place to go. Maybe it’s time to “un”hijack our party…
then we have the fiasco of the Rae Days…a tanking economy so terribly handled that he left office in humiliation.
By Leasa on 11.01.08 5:27 pm
My first job in Canada, back in 1988, was to manage a union shop. I remember it well. everyone complaining about David Peterson and how things would better when Bob Rae won.
Boy, where they in for a shock. Certainly, Ontario’s economy was in a mess. Partly due to Bob Rae’s spending promises, and partly from Cretien/Martin cutting back on provincial transfers as they started to deal with the deficit and debt left after Trudeau/Mulroney/Compbell.
I think he was in a no win situation.
Continuing his spending was not an option, cutbacks were inevitable. The public sector unions couldn’t see that.
He could have done what every other Premier faced with the same problem has done, just cut and slash ala. Mike Harris, laying people of left right and centre. Would the public sector unions, who had helped him get elected, have liked that? No! Would you have liked that? I doubt it.
But he chose to do something different, to try and spread the pain, hence Rae Days. The public sector unions didn’t like that either and his support crumbled.
Yes, Bob Rae has baggage. He would make a good leader, but that baggage will always hold him back.
Ignatieff, also has baggage. Same applies.
The Libs. need a fresh face, no baggage attached, as leader!
And the backstabbers, like Volpe, need to be shown the door! Its not that they don’t like where a leader is taking them, its just the leader isn’t the one they supported and the leadership race for them, never ends.
Before and during the election, don’t worry, things are good. Now its we’re in a better position to weather the storm.
Is reality starting to set in with these two?
By James – Chatham on 11.01.08 8:19 am
Reality set into both of them I’d say roughly about 9 months to a year ago, James. Remember, they changed the mortgage regs a little over 4 months ago. The delay was directly due to their planned date for the election essentially meaning, they didn’t want their disasterous nothing down 40 year mortgage regs to be an election issue at least, to the public’s full awareness.
Anyone with common sense in hindsigh now knows that Harper/Flarehty’s nothing down 40 year CMHC mortgage insured regs was a policy trumped up by either idiots or greeders who wanted to profit heavily off of boom and bust (more on that later, I”m rushed today) The key question I’ve got is… why did Harper/Flarehty wait so long to act?
Harper himself said he knew in August of 2007 that the global economy in general was in trouble. So if he knew, then… why didn’t he tighten CMHC mortgage regulations then? As it stands, they admit to having a full year to act and they dragged their feet presumably to keep themselves in power but at the taxpayers expense and I have, with full awareness of the situation given what they have both said and done, no other choice but to believe that 25 Billion dollar mistakes like this, not to mention the trama it will have on all the bankrupt families… the highest offices of the land and the choices and consequences of magitudes such as this should not be treated lightly. Their mortgage policy was a huge failure and for media to give them a free ride over it tells all. Mainstream media itself is corrupt for highly self interested reasons (more on that later as well James, I’m rushed). All thats on my mind these days is replacing them with people that know what they are doing.
Brent Fullard, are you out there today? Have you thought about running for leadership for the Libs? Give it some thought.
By David Bakody on 11.02.08 6:20 am
Actually Dave, our standard of living index fell under the former government, from number 1 to 15.
Free Trade is much more than just ‘business’ whether they are officially signed on or not. When you have crap so toxic made for toddlers that if ingested can kill that child…that is a social problem big time. When you have 100’s of family pets dying because of toxic feed coming across that border…again social. When you are ‘dealing’ with a country that harvests organs from political prisoners and processes food (fish)for export right next to an open sewer… social.
Until we have a standards agreement in those deals that is enforced…we can hardly call it fair or even moral.
Leasa
Re. Renters and Property Taxes -
Some may find this disappointing, but you won’t escape paying property taxes by paying rent to a landlord. That landlord’s property taxes are passed on to and paid by – you, the renter.
In Ontario, the property tax part of rent is around 20%. The only differences are that your landlord is taxed at a lower rate if the property is multi-residential (percentage of gross rents vice assessed value), and that you pay to him vice directly to City Hall.
You might escape income tax by having little income, but only death will separate you from property taxes.
From the Liberal candidate in Oshawa:
A few thoughts on how the Liberals must face some inconvenient truths
To members of Sean Godfrey for Oshawa
Sean Godfrey
October 26 at 12:12am
A few thoughts on how the Liberals must face some inconvenient truths… if we are to become a relevant political force in 21st century Canada.
1) A Liberal Party Leader:
We need to pick a leader who can work with others, who can listen, will respect their opinions but who also has charisma, intelligence and can communicate ideas well. He or she must be likeable in the public’s eyes, a good salesman and a great communicator – to get the message across to the public.
2) The Machine:
Here, the Liberals have their greatest lessons to learn, from of all people, the Conservatives.
This is the 21st century. So, let’s start to use 21st century techniques and every possible modern media tool to maximal advantage.
We need to include the internet, TV marketing, telephone marketing, focus groups and professional PR firms to create…a successful brand.
We must build a successful brand from both top down… and bottom up.
The message to the public must, of course, be exceptionally good from the central leadership; but the creation and execution of political momentum must be at both riding and national level.
According to the Toronto Star last week, only 36,000 individuals across Canada contributed last year to the Liberals.
The Conservatives had five times that number of contributors, and as a result had a national database of identified Conservatives to approach, not just for money, but for votes, taking signs, recruiting volunteers and grassroots organization.
They also outgunned us by five times in terms of money raised from individual donations. We must learn how to play the ‘new’ game.
We need to create that kind of database and those kinds of numbers of supporters consistently across this country, from year to year, and not just hope we can gain enough national support in an Election period.
The Conservatives also targeted specific groups such as middle class married women very successfully, in terms of policy and propaganda. For the Conservatives, each riding had thousands of identified supporters from the national database who could then be plugged into each local campaign.
3) Each Liberal riding must become a fully functioning cell of political action:
during writ but also between writs, more importantly. The Liberal Party needs to wake up to the simple fact that if each riding association were to become a supported hotbed of local political activity, then the Liberal brand would resonate in every riding across the country with the electorate in every Election.
Right now, Liberal riding associations – especially in un-held ridings – are aimless, impoverished and have no true political activity, except by accident.
The Liberals centrally spent no concerted effort, time or money going after un-held ridings, and ignored their issues in strategy and policy approaches.
No wonder almost no ridings were taken back and several “stronghold” ridings were lost.
The Liberals have believed arrogantly, for too long, that just showing up to an Election should be sufficient to win.
We need to take serious stock: the Liberals have lost the confidence of this nation.
We simply don’t resonate with enough people anymore in this country.
4) Political structure:
Currently, we have an archaic and seemingly inept structure in place, in terms of central, regional and local organizations, when it comes to effective political activity.
LPCO is my local provincial example. It acheives very little effective political activity that I can determine. Since I was a candidate, if it’s not apparent to me that they are doing anything in terms of political action, then it’s even more embarrassing to consider just how ineffective they really must be… as far as stimulating the general public to turn to the Liberals.
There seem to be more people interested in holding titular positions in these organizations than there are people actually orchestrating political action… and engaging the public to become Liberals or to hear the Liberal message.
During the Election period, I must have received hundreds of emails from the central Party and LPCO extolling the virtues of the Liberal campaign …but absolutely nothing was being done to communicate these messages effectively to the electorate. Very little of any real use was forthcoming either to candidates in un-held ridings in terms of help or assistance, except very outdated ideas and techniques, such as forcing candidates to buy a useless riding package which contained, amongst other things, dozens of posters of Mr Dion.
The tools provided, if they could be called that, were old fashioned, ineffective and a waste of valuable resouces and money.
Strategic targeting of specific ridings in a more intelligent ‘hands on’ fashion is what’s required.
What’s also required is an understanding of modern political warfare and the tools that are required. The Liberal Party doesn’t appear to understand, in terms of its own regional and central organizations, how to wage the war, riding by riding.
Fascinatingly, as soon as the Election was over, I received not one email, message or telephone call from LPCO or the central Party apparatus to thank me for the time, effort, money and sacrifices that I, and so many others, had undertaken on their behalf as Liberal candidates. We took the fall for the Liberal Party’s ineptitude, poor organization and a badly communicated, misguided central Party message that simply lost us thousands of Liberal voters in every riding across the country.
When I close my eyes at night, the lasting memory of our canvassing during the campaign is the recurring refrain heard too often to count at the doorsteps, ” I can’t vote Liberal this time, your leader is terrible…and I hate the carbon tax!”
To not even acknowledge the candidates and their loyal volunteers who slogged their guts out for the cause and who were mown down like cannon fodder in the Election debacle, is just insulting to so many who were brave enough to hoist the Liberal banner high and demonstrates a shocking lack of intelligence and empathy when applied to team building.
Many candidates are shell shocked by what happened, many are openly angry and will never run again for the Liberals, because of how let down they feel because of their regional and central Party’s indifference and ineptitude.
5) We cannot afford another divisive and expensive leadership struggle:
This needs to be put very quickly behind us, if any momentum can be created – especially since there is a very good chance we will face another election within the next few years.
Surely we don’t want to return to Parliament, again afraid to challenge the increasingly swaggering Conservatives because we cannot afford to fight another election and know internally we are still divided?
Enough is enough.
It’s time to learn some hard lessons and get back into the game we need to win.
If we really want to win, we must first learn from our mistakes of how we lost.
If we fail to learn from our mistakes, we are certain to repeat them.
Leadership contenders please note this last point.
So, it seems clear that in very short order, we must have a much briefer, affordable and much more sensible leadership convention.
Liberals cannot wait until May, with Mr. Dion hanging painfully on to be further ridiculed by the Conservatives, at will, in Parliament.
All that achieves is further Conservative brainwashing of the Electorate that the Liberals cannot get their act together and shouldn’t be trusted as being credible.
The Liberals should view choosing a new leader as our first and immediately vital PR exercise in regaining public confidence in the Liberal brand.
This can and should really be done before Christmas, if we are to have any real chance of unifying support initially within the Liberals and then, much more importantly, within the general electorate.
The Tories planned their election two years ahead. We are already behind the clock – given that the most likely election time line is just two years away.
6) Cooperation and unity:
Now more than ever, the team of key Liberals must realize that they must work together, if we are to succeed.
We have absolutely brilliant, talented, capable people in place within the Liberals. But, we have not learned to play as a unified team.
Place each person at their strongest positions, cover each other’s areas of weakness, and move as one smooth and coherent force.
The public are desperate for the Liberals to rise from the ashes and deliver something worth believing in, again.
7) The ‘Kingston’ effect:
It is absolutely necessary to take the brightest and the best in this Party and sequester them until they thrash out both a winning team approach and an effective policy strategy that the electorate will get behind in droves.
That policy strategy must be clear, easy to grasp and resonate with this 21st century electorate.
Remember, we have one huge advantage over the Conservatives: we are the good guys!
We actually believe in human rights, social progress, democracy and freedom of speech, equality and fairness.
The public know that…and they want to see those principles front and centre, so they can willingly back the Liberal brand again.
The team approach is critical, but of course, we need a captain – who must lead by example and must have the loyalty of all those who play on the team.
Or we shall simply repeat what we just all painfully witnessed – and lose not only the next Election, but the permanent confidence of the people of this nation.
Sean Godfrey.
Unrepentant Liberal
By Barb the proofreader on 11.01.08 10:42 pm
Canada, somewhere, found the wherewithal to pay attention to Abraham Maslow’s ‘Hierarchy of Needs’ and we are a much superior country socially for it.
We have the ‘Human Factor’ and must never allow materialism to destroy that most precious aspect of what being a Canadian, and a real human being is.
It is reflected in all we do, and especially our International Relations and Foreign Policies.
This is why Harper, Ignatieff, and those like McCain should never be handed the reins of power. They simply are incapable of seeing their fellow human beings as equals in this journey we call LIFE!
Yesterday, the 87 y.o. man I spoke with gave me his favorite poem. He wrote it out, and all of us were absolutely amazed at the beauty of his hand writing. I have not seen penmanship of that quality in ages. It will be framed as a memoir of days gone by when people expresed their inner being by how they wrote, a skill called PRIDE and Clarity!
Here is the poem. I think it reflects what we are talking about beautifully.
There was a very cautious man
Who never romped or played
He never danced, he never drank,
He never kissed a maid
And when he passed away they said
Insurance was denied
‘Cause since he never ever lived
He never could have died.
That is the world the FUD dispensers of the Far Right Funnymentalism want to bestow on us with their ‘rules’, and they have the audacity to call others Socialists, Communists, and a Threat?
They talk about freedom, yet build their own prison and want everyone else to lock themselves into it to keep them company in their self-created misery. NEVER! I am a FREE Human Being.
By Men With Hats on 11.02.08 2:24 am
LMAO! How very true!
They call it “socialism” with a sneer.
Not for a second realizing that working for the good of ALL is what Christ taught.
Not “Get it now, before anyone else can”.
By A.R.Wainwright on 11.02.08 12:44 am
Yes, and isn’t it fascinating how the Rethuglicans, and Crappers, those stalwarts of ‘Christianity’ totally abhor the very word that describes what Jesus taught?
They want to ‘preserve life’ by ensuring it is a misery, except for them. They want to force everything on everyone else, yet ‘Lift not one finger to ease the pain’. Who spoke of that principle and called them ‘Hypocrites!’?
They talk of saving the unborn, yet willfully bomb, torture, and justify all means to their end against the world and individuals on this planet, the born and unborn without discrimination.
Like the Eagles’ song ‘Hole In The World’ says ‘All this fighting over who is the annointed.’
You might not want to miss what curdled the milk in Hairy’s coffee in Ottawa this fine Sunday morning:
Some reflections on PMSH’s new cabinet from the “Blackberry Roundtable” on Page A16 of the of the Ottawa Citizen (digital edition at http://digital.ottawacitizen.com/epaper/viewer.aspx) –
Kady O’Malley:
On the size of the cabinet –
Scott Reid:
And on keeping everyone’s favourite FinMin in the turbulent times ahead –
Andrew Potter:
Have a fine partisan Sunday, Hairy.
For those who have not travelled or lived in countries that have no social programs and the poor people must fend for themselves….please be careful what you wish for… I have and it is not safe to walk or live in many areas because you could loose your life in heartbeat over a watch or the cloths on your back…Sharing is not a burden…think what 12 billion a month would do for the world aid…..rather than what is being done now….and who says you are your family would be on the have side…. loss of jobs and poor health can happen in a New York Minute!
What do people here think about the number of women named to the federal Cabinet? Is it enough?
Does not the Liberal Party of Canada now face a two-fold challenge?
1. Address the economic situation in the nation.
2. Address the economic situation in the LPC.
The new leadership will need to be somebody who can establish clear priorities as to which of these two situations he or she must prioritize.
BODSBD,
thanks for posting the analysis by the “Unrepentant Liberal” at 9:21 am. It explains a lot I have been scratching my head about as an outsider.
Hope the LPC does not shoot the messenger, but takes Sean Godfrey’s complaint to heart. A new leader and a resurrected party are the only way I can see to “Erase the disgrace”, short of our situation becoming so bad that voters will reject the government automatically. Hope we don’t have to go there.
Of course, Liberals would prefer not to have their linen aired in public. But then, it might serve the party by generating pressure to force the LPC to become attractive and electable again.
Hairy, what you write does not need countering – it refutes itself. But you know that.
By Herb on 11.01.08 10:02 pm
Have a fine partisan Sunday, Hairy.
By Herb on 11.02.08 9:52 am
…………………………………………………….
You hate-filled attitude is outright despicable and does nothing to advance discussion and debate on this fine forum. I can’t imagine how you can exist in your hate-filled partisanship.
I have speculated on the next Liberal leadership race and what the Liberal party must do to emerge from it’s dismal situation. With people like you, the Liberal party is most certainly doomed to oblivion because negative attitudes such as your’s and other malcontents and miscreants posting here will destroy what remains of the Liberal party.
Of course many who post on this fine forum are nasty Dippers who just enjoy trolling and bashing. Delete yerselves ……
The Liberals should be either “true center” or “center right”. Focus on social liberty and fiscal prudence.
The “fluid” votes are in the center. The hard right will ALWAYS vote CPC. The hard left will ALWAYS vote NDP.
If the Liberals choose Rae, and go left, then former PC’ers like me will have no place to go. Maybe it’s time to “un”hijack our party…
By Tim N on 11.02.08 8:19 am
Agree with you on the centrist part.
What’s your take on Dominic Leblanc?
By A.R.Wainwright on 11.02.08 12:44 am,
When I was attending university the meaning of socialism was a governmental system in which government owned and/or controlled the means of production.
The current “right” use the term socialism to mean anything that government does that serves to benefit society as a whole.
Doesn’t it just make you feel warm all over? TD visa has increased interest on late payments by 5% to a new rate of 24.75 percent if someone is 30 days late making a payment.Oh yes they certainly are trying to help the unfortunate little guy get back on his feet considering their greed and incompetence got him in the situation in the first place.Their appreciation for the billions of dollars in taxpayer funds to bail them out of their mortgage crisis seems to be non existant.I say no more handouts!
Hairy,
I have no trouble existing in my “hate-filled partisanship.” First of all, I “hate” few things in life, but do despise many political practices and those who practice them. Secondly, it’s not partisan – I despise and detest all forms of self-serving lies and deception in all parties that use them.
‘Nuff said. Now shoo, Troll!
Phony Sarkozy punks Palin
Too funny – or should I say sad. To think that there’s a possibility of her becoming VP.
A Quebec comedy duo notorious for prank calls to celebrities and heads of state has punked Sarah Palin, convincing the Republican vice-presidential nominee she was speaking with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QbEwKcs-7Hc
What do people here think about the number of women named to the federal Cabinet? Is it enough?
By Mel on 11.02.08 10:22 am
Don’t care. Likewise I don’t believe every province should have someone at the cabinet table. (Although with the number in the current cabinet that shouldn’t be diffcult except for NF.)
What I want are the best people for the task in the ministers’ chairs; and for most, genetical predisposition isn’t and shouln’t be a determining factor.
By C. B. Innes on 11.02.08 12:10 pm
The term ’socialism’ was simply a nicer way to say ‘communism’. Stands today.
Has anyone seen the number of companies in the US going bankrupt? Will this be the box store demise of the century? Canada next? Yup. The Coming Depression
Catch a flight with this person? Ummm, no thanks!
http://tinyurl.com/5j3zuz
By Charles Oxley on 11.01.08 10:00 pm
Charlie, your link was highly engrossing so I emailed it to my R C Aircraft Scratch Builder and Pilot son in London, Ont. As usual, “Lakota” as he is known on their forums, did his debunking routine and you will find the results in this link below. That video you posted the link to is a collage of both RC Model Aircraft and the full sized real version very cleverly melded together. It is part of a clothing mfg’s advert. The tip off was the landing “bounce” was that of an RC Model and not a real acrobatic aircraft. I hope you now learn that everything we see is not always as it is purported to be, and that “slight of hand” is now “slight of video clip” in this modern age. He also noted that the sound track had anomalies in it too. His ability to spot these inconsistencies as partly due to the practice of these scratch builders of videoing their flights and posting them on line with audio including music dubbed in!
This is also a warning to those who like to pull scams and con jobs, you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of them all the time.
Regards from the flight line and the hype debunkers!
http://www.reggiepaulk.com/2008/10/killathrill-generates-huge-buzz-with.html
Chas. Oxley and any others interested here are the other links that Lakota provided apropo to the lost wing flying.
Rest of the story here:
http://www.reggiepaulk.com/2008/10/killathrill-generates-huge-buzz-with.html
I have seen vid from History channel show of an f15 flying on one wing, no need for knife edge flight on that bird:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_EXtBEaBbs&feature=related
Then three others that are rc models:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOBB_-gZFNo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RMqDP_HJyk&feature=related
http://rcuvideos.com/video/Bill-Hempel-knife-fly
[flying "knife edge" is in the attitude of wings vertical to the ground rather than perpendicular!]
C.B. Innes (and Leasa),
the university I went to (UofT, 6T4) did not teach false dichotomies or propaganda. There was – and still is – a clear distinction between socialism and communism.
Of course, adherents of certain doctrines and practices find it expedient to erase any difference between the too, better to scare voters with (to borrow from another fable.)
Remember, we have one huge advantage over the Conservatives: we are the good guys!
We actually believe in human rights, social progress, democracy and freedom of speech, equality and fairness.
The public know that…and they want to see those principles front and centre, so they can willingly back the Liberal brand again.
The team approach is critical, but of course, we need a captain – who must lead by example and must have the loyalty of all those who play on the team.
Or we shall simply repeat what we just all painfully witnessed – and lose not only the next Election, but the permanent confidence of the people of this nation.
Sean Godfrey.
Unrepentant Liberal
By Bodsbd on 11.02.08 9:21 am
For those who are unaware, Sean Godfrey is Dr. Md., Head of Pediatrics, Oshawa General Hospital / Lakeridge Health, and his letter is as much a diagnosis plus prescription for the LPC as it is a candidates review of the failure to get elected. When I asked Dr. Godfrey why he would put his career on hold to run for and sit in Parliament as an MP, his reply included the list of failures by previous governments to fund and provide the needed medical practioners, programs and research that is obviously missing. He also stated that he does not see anyone else stepping up to the plate to go to bat for what is so obviously lacking. I voted for Sean and support most of what he says, but I strongly feel that there needs to be election of the leaders by all of the people via a Primary Election System. Enfranchise We the People, and you will get more support than you ever dreamed of!
How did Barack Obama get this far and with an anticipated record turn out at their polls? It is because he and his team are involving the all the people and using a message of hope and promise of change. The use of the internet was shown by his predecessor, former Gov. Howard Dean, to be the new magic bullet (bulletin)! Digital Democracy, internet fund raising, and networking are the key to future success. We do not need the biased media nor should we waste money on their expensive time slots.
The term ’socialism’ was simply a nicer way to say ‘communism’. Stands today.
By Leasa on 11.02.08 2:20 pm,
The right wing has redefined many of the terms. Socialism and communism are not necessarily the same thing because there are many different forms of socialism.
See all social programs as socialism is a rather new development among right wing individualists. In fact, conservatism once focused on the common good rather than on individualism. Modern conservatives along with modern liberals reject the idea that there is any such thing as the “common good.”
Hence the individual that can afford health care does not care whether others can gain access or those who are rich don’t see any need to pay taxes for the common needs of society. They believe that only those who have wealth are entitled.
Um… Just wondering about the photo you’ve included of the “abandoned” condo site. They must have been in a HUGE rush to abandon it if they left all that heavy machinery behind.
Just sayin’…
I agree with those who are saying that we must honestly face the inconvenient truths about our own mistakes, and where we were clearly outwitted, outgunned, out-financed, out strategized, out-manouvred, out-numbered and out-foxed by the Conservatives. While the truth is painful to face, true restoration can only happen where the painful truth is acknowledged and embraced, at whatever cost to our previous delusions.
One thing we have learned is not be put everybody’s “second choice” in as leader. We need a strong leader who can lead us in a given direction without obfuscation, ambiguity, hesitancy, or wavering. A leader must be able to make up his or her mind. To put Dion in as leader was to shoot ourselves in the foot.
I agree with the following sentiments previously expressed on this thread:
“2) The Machine:
“Here, the Liberals have their greatest lessons to learn, from of all people, the Conservatives.
“This is the 21st century. So, let’s start to use 21st century techniques and every possible modern media tool to maximal advantage.
“We need to include the internet, TV marketing, telephone marketing, focus groups and professional PR firms to create…a successful brand.
“We must build a successful brand from both top down… and bottom up.
“According to the Toronto Star last week, only 36,000 individuals across Canada contributed last year to the Liberals.
“The Conservatives had five times that number of contributors, and as a result had a national database of identified Conservatives to approach, not just for money, but for votes, taking signs, recruiting volunteers and grassroots organization.
“They also outgunned us by five times in terms of money raised from individual donations. We must learn how to play the ‘new’ game.
“We need to create that kind of database and those kinds of numbers of supporters consistently across this country, from year to year, and not just hope we can gain enough national support in an Election period.”
The truth will set us free, but sometimes it will first make us miserable. Surely our corporate blindness in WANTING to believe
Dion would become the next PM
caused to to live in a make-believe
world, but now we must face reality.
Only by facing reality will be we
transformed into a party that will
resonate with a new generation of
young adults in the 21st century.
It is going to take a complete,
inside out change in the way we think,
believe and act. The days of the
traditional wisdom of the “natural
governing party” are over. It is
a new day, and either we will change,
or else change will overtake us, and it will surely demolish the thinking of yesteryear.
Re: By Herb on 11.02.08 1:02 pm
‘Nuff said. Now shoo, Troll!
…………………………………..
I was here well before you and based on the tolerance and courtesy of our honourable host, I shall stay here to make my valid contribution to discussion and debate.
Perhaps it is you who should “shoo”…having established yourself as a “troll”.
—————————————
Re: By James – Chatham on 11.02.08 1:58 pm
What do people here think about the number of women named to the federal Cabinet? Is it enough?
By Mel on 11.02.08 10:22 am
……………
Don’t care. ……..
What I want are the best people for the task in the ministers’ chairs; and for most, genetical predisposition isn’t and shouln’t be a determining factor.
…………………………………
What we have in the Harper cabinet is a concentration of highly qualified people to manage the country’s business. We also have an increased Cabinet size which will give the shrunken 77 Liberals a work overload attempting to oppose. Also Harper has the luxury of training new Cabinet members and those that shine will be the next election Cabinet most likely within 2 years … and sooner than later because the new Liberal leader will most certainly not pull another “Dion” leading an abstaining party for 2 years.
Harper is gonna have a winning Cabinet going into any next election … male AND female … and in any next election I suspect mad Danny Williams will stfu his piehole.
By Truth B Told on 11.02.08 3:12 pm
What a coincidence that you should mention air craft. Yesterday afternoon while we were on coffee break, a large very low flying military aircraft flew over our farm, to the west of our farm over our woodlot then made a huge circle just south of us and did this pass twice. Then it flew out of sight to the east. I cannot find on any local news station what they were doing. It was almost as if they were searching for something. We’ve had search planes go over several times here looking for pot but this is the first time we’ve had a military plane go over us at all, especially that low.
Does anyone here know why they were doing this? There is no military base near us or anything. L
Joe, The Plumber, cleans out America ’s Problem
What’s your take on Dominic Leblanc?
By Darlene on 11.02.08 12:03 pm
Honestly – I don’t much about him.
Superficially – his bonuses are
1) He’s not from Toronto/Quebec – like it or not, a big perception (rightly or wrongly) is that the Liberal party is a Toronto/Quebec-centric party – a leader that is from outside Toronto/Quebec is a bonus.
2) He’s 40. If I compare to Rae and Iggy – they are both 60+. Now, I’ve got nothing against 60+ people. However, a youthful face is a bonus (IMHO – but I’m 35…)
3) He’s relatively new – 8 years in Fed politics – which should separate him from the Ad-scam, etc..
What the Liberals need to realize and accept is that perception IS reality to many people. The perception is:
1) The Liberal party believes (wrongly) that they are the natural governing party “NGP” – this was true when the right was splittered and they occupied the center position. But they have moved left, and no longer hold the “NGP”
2) They don’t care about the West – they care about Ontario and Quebec only – the truth is the Conservatives screw the west too (CF-18, Billions to Quebec, etc…)- but because the West is mostly Conservative they don’t see it. A voice that is from outside Toronto and Quebec is really needed.
3) The Liberal party is “leftist” – historically this is not true – but for the last few elections they have moved that way.
Personally, I don’t care which direction they take – but take one, and fight for it. If the Liberals CHOOSE to go left – then be prepared to merge with NDP and work towards it.
However, I truly believe that Canada needs a centrist party – which we are lacking. Canadians are centrist (IMHO) – low taxes, good governance and social freedom – but we are lacking a party that embodies that at the moment.
It is a new day, and either we will change,
or else change will overtake us, and it will surely demolish the thinking of yesteryear.
By Mel on 11.02.08 4:23 pm
Mel
I think the biggest problem with the Liberal Party is they look back instead of into the future. You cannot just reconcile with Liberals – the party needs to attract small “l” liberals.
I was so frustrated that the entire idea of the campaign I worked on was to contact current and former Liberals. That is a diminishing return. If the party cannot reach out to all people and find out what they want – it will fail all Canadians.
People may be afraid to say it but I believe that if Obama does not win the U.S. election there is going to be civil unrest that will make the 1960s look tame. With his lead in the polls the perception would be that the election was rigged.
It be surprising if there are plans to close the U.S./Canadian border should that happen.
Does anyone here know why they were doing this? There is no military base near us or anything. L
By Leasa on 11.02.08 4:44 pm
Don’t fret about it Leasa. The military sues many areas for low level flight training, UNLESS, you feel a sudden urge to play Bingo and number , B-1, B-2, or B-52!
Our CF’s regulary fly the Muskoka River on low level training flightds and touch and go landings at the Muskoka Airport. Standard training.
It was probably a black CF-130 Hercules, four engine turbo-prop?
Does anyone here know why they were doing this? There is no military base near us or anything. L
By Leasa on 11.02.08 4:44 pm
First of all, you can with some effort google up some large military aircraft profiles, and make a tentative identification for your own satisfaction.
Second, you are only “air minutes” away from several US Airforce bases, ie. Niagara, New York, Pittsburg, Pa., Selfridge just North of Detroit, and I don’t know what exists at Toledo, Cleveland, etc. Also Trenton, Ont. Then there is also Battle Creek, Mich., and North Bay, Ont. What ever, this craft was doing will not be revealed unless there is a very good reason to at some later date. It could be a mid-air refueling tanker KC-135 type, or a Troop Transport type for air dropping men and materiel, or even a bomber. Low level flights are not normal unless there is a deliberate reason. Was there a marine search on over Lake Erie? Also they some times need to lose some fuel before landing. You are much closer to Cleveland than you realize! Also I am not aware of what the capacity of Erie, Pa.’s airport is or if there was an airshow on somewhere over there. Rest assured that if that was an American craft it was where it was with the full knowledge and permission of our airspace controllers. In the event it was an airshow, it could also be a visiting craft and crew from most anywhere in the world.
In your identification, the number and type of engines is definitive. Jet, Turbojet, or Piston Engine!
I just remembered that the world’s last airworthy Lancaster bomber that was moved from Oshawa Airport and finished referb is at Hamilton in the museum. I personally knew the former Rev. Billy Mackay, on whose farm Pickering Nuclear Power Plant was built, was the only WW2 Lanc pilot to land one on a single working engine in England after a disasterous raid over Germany. He got his remaining live crew to parachute out ad he brought it in on fumes and a prayer. At the end of the runway it collapsed in a heap it was so badly shot up! He got out and walked away (ran). He is the same person who authored that Public School Primer [reader] about Funny the Horse. When I first moved here from Edmonton, Funny was still alive at age 18. After the farm sold they moved up North to just West of Myrtle. Billy lived into his mid nineties and I believe is related to the current Defense Minister, if I am not mistaken.
The term ’socialism’ was simply a nicer way to say ‘communism’. Stands today.
By Leasa on 11.02.08 2:20 pm,
Most people use [abuse] the term communism by assuming that the Soviet version is the standard. But it is not! Soviet style Communism is a bastardization of the word from the git go. True communism is much more like that which is practiced on an Israeli Kabutz or amongst the Amish or Hutterites settlers in North America.
By Hairy at 4:26 pm -
The preceding has been a service of the Stephen Harper Devotional Network. – Kady O’Malley, ITQ
Does anyone here know why they were doing this? There is no military base near us or anything. L
By Leasa on 11.02.08 4:44 pm
Harper’s looking for land to expropriate.
By Alexander Panetta, The Canadian Press
OTTAWA – The expanded federal cabinet presented by Prime Minister Stephen Harper could cost taxpayers an additional $3.9 million in salaries alone for the extra ministers and their staff.
The total cost of staffing ministerial offices – roughly $24.2 million in salaries – has increased 19 per cent with last week’s shuffle, and has jumped 42 per cent since the Tories presented their first cabinet in 2006.
Opposition parties have called the addition of six new cabinet spots a strange message for the government to be sending in a time of economic belt-tightening.
The Conservatives had 26 ministers in their initial 2006 cabinet, expanded that to 31 ministers over their first term in office, and now have 37 ministers following the latest shuffle.
–oh yes all is fine in Canada right Stevie! All Canada needs at this time is more muzzled head bobbers.Just more captive fans for our one man government.
Harry: Harper is costing us 3.9 million dollars in additional salaries for his padded cabinet. Will we get our moneys worth? I doubt it.
Rookie M.P.’s landing cabinet posts does not inspire confidence.
I thought Harper was going to be fiscally responsible? I guess he will just cut funding to the provinces to pay for his bloated cabinet.
Interesting article in today’s Myrtle Beach Sun newspaper.
The reporter wrote about Canada’s new Cabinet. Stated that even Gary Ritz has kept his job despite “making jokes about a listeriosis outbreak that killed 20 Canadians”.
Even Americans are appalled at our P.M.’s lack of judgement in his appointments.
It was a very large green plane with 4 propellers. It flew low what seemed like right over our barn in the pattern I mentioned. Apparently they did the same thing over LaSalette a small area near me. My employees said it did the same thing, low and like it was looking for something. There are no air shows on currently.
By Truth B Told on 11.02.08 7:44 pm,
Or the First Nations people in North America before European contact.
Thought I’d pass along a link for all of you.
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/2008/1027.html
I haven’t made any comments about Oct 14 on this board yet. All I’ll say is that we have the government we deserve. Canadians should never take the moral high road. They should Never bitch about government doing something for the environment. As for losing jobs? Too bad so sad. Look for another one, perhaps the local Wal-Mart or MacDonald’s?
As for you Mr. Garth? I’m sorry.
It was a very large green plane with 4 propellers. It flew low what seemed like right over our barn in the pattern I mentioned. Apparently they did the same thing over LaSalette a small area near me. My employees said it did the same thing, low and like it was looking for something. There are no air shows on currently.
By Leasa on 11.02.08 8:54 pm
That would be a standard CF-130 Hercules. They are green, and they do not need an airshow to practice low level missions and navigation. Relax, or were there SHINY LIGHTS? LOL
If you want to feel the Earth Move under your feet I suggest going to a place like Snowflake, AZ where the B-52’s come in at bombing speed about 500 feet above the terrain and you will come to know what LOUD is!
Likewise, should you see THIS you will not be replying. LOL
By Men With Hats on 11.02.08 10:23 pm
How very true that is!
By C. B. Innes on 11.02.08 6:58 pm
Funny you should post that. I was sitting watching TV and thought ‘This election is the encore performance of the ’60’s.’
As to Harper’s new Cabinet. It would seem he has gone Back To the Future and selected the Three Stooges, Marx Brothers, The Keystone Cops, and various other people to re-enact a cast of insanity? Unfortunately, none of them will be funny.
BY BRAIN 02.08 8:23 AM
Brain, that’s what I suggested too, at:
Um… Just wondering about the photo you’ve included of the “abandoned” condo site. They must have been in a HUGE rush to abandon it if they left all that heavy machinery behind.
Just sayin’…
By Todd on 11.02.08 4:14 pm
Probably leased not owned and left for Repo Man! Standard drill in cases of bankruptcy and quit claiming!
It was a very large green plane with 4 propellers. It flew low what seemed like right over our barn in the pattern I mentioned. Apparently they did the same thing over LaSalette a small area near me. My employees said it did the same thing, low and like it was looking for something. There are no air shows on currently.
By Leasa on 11.02.08 8:54 pm
Ok, now, that is much like either a Hercules or KC-135A type. Did it have a trailing boom or an instrument package on a tow cable? My nickle bet is that this is a refurbished former military unit that is being used for oil and gas surveying or may it is weed surveillance. they may also be looking for a thermal foot print of a clandestine drug lab, too. That type of aircraft sucks back an awful lot of JP4 gogo juice and there has to be some sort of reasonable pay off! That area is not that far from other gas and oil deposits. I worked the big repair turn around at Esso Nanticoke when they bought it from Texaco. Same time when poor Linda Shaw was murdered that Easter weekend. Sordid way to remember, like I remember one of my hunting trips North of North Bay was when Anwar Sadat was assassinated!
Leasa,
Try calling the Tillsonburg Flying Club or the Harvard Club also in Tillsonburg, and they probably can help you find out.
If it was old it could be a Lancaster.
http://tinyurl.com/5acsoe
If it’s a “newer” military plane, maybe it was a C-130 Hercules, a four-engine turboprop. There are more than 40 versions of the Hercules.
http://www.uscost.net/AircraftCharacteristics/Images/c130img.jpg
I’m sure your area flying clubs will be all abuzz and will know about it.
It may have had something to do with the funeral of the WWII hero, Charley Fox. Although, the date in this article is before that:
http://tilsonburg.siteseer.ca/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1271178
Fox was famous partly because he injured Rommel.
My Dad, about ten years ago, was given a ride in an old Harvard, by the club in Tillsonburg.
BY C. B. INNES ON 11.02.08 4:13 PM
C. B.,
Modern Liberals are all about the Common Good. Every single Liberal I know will tell you that.
By Darlene on 11.02.08 12:03 pm
I met Dominic early this year. He is an excellent speaker and he’s very personable. I hadn’t heard much of him before that but I was impressed. There’s a lot of energy around him.
I wrote to him after Dion’s announcement because I wanted to cheer him on in case he was thinking of running.
Tim N Thanks for your response.
As for your assessment on Dominic Leblanc, I agree for the most part. I’ve googled him and didn’t find very much to go off of. Since he’s been elected since 2000, he held positions in both Chretien’s and Martin’s cabinet and could technically be classified as Ad-scam. With Dion he was inter-governmental affairs and did some stuff on the in and out fiasco. Not enough to make a true assessment of him.
Since I’m 40, I also would like to see someone from our generation, no offence meant to boomers. Since we’re in the middle of our working lives we seem to have a little more at stake.
As for the Liberals, I’ve always seen them as center. Fiscally right, socially left. Garth is my favourite example of this.
The leadership thing has left me feeling lost. It’s not that there isn’t good candidates, they are all compromise candidates. They should of kept Dion until there was that someone special.
I’m scared about my and the following generations future. The Conservatives are not an option, nor the NDP. The Liberals can’t seem to get their shit together, so it’s not leaving a viable option.
Thanks again for your reply, Darlene.
By Barb the proofreader on 11.03.08 12:58 am
Barb, thank you! That was the plane!!! I have contacted our local media to find out why they were doing this low fly over our area. Apparently they did this in a few places around here. Very low, very loud and it had lights, almost radar like. It was like they were looking for something. Thanks again for finding that picture. I’ve looked at hundreds of pictures and could not find it. Leasa
By Truth B Told on 11.03.08 12:44 am
FYI,
A KC-135 is the same as a Boeing 707, and is powered by by four Pratt & Whitney JET engines, not turboprops.
They also do NOT fly them at low altitudes except when taking off, landing, or crashing.
By Men With Hats on 11.02.08 10:23 pm,
The problem with this evaluation is that it is intended to support your own position. I could argue just the opposite by using different sources as well.
There are a wide variety of concepts of conservatism and liberalism and that is why it is so easy to support a person’s own definition from the opinions of others.
I consider myself a conservative but not a new Conservative.
Modern Liberals are all about the Common Good. Every single Liberal I know will tell you that.
By Barb the proofreader on 11.03.08 2:31 am,
The problem with this is that as virtually all Liberal political partisans all see the “common good” as the good of the Liberal Party. They don’t see anything beyond that. The same is true for the partisans of other parties.
The Liberal Party has always been the party of Ontario and Quebec and they have never had a leader that was not strongly associated with that part of the country because that is where the most votes are. In fact, John Turner was only associated with B.C. because his seat was there but most of his life in Canada (he was born in Britain) was in Quebec and Ontario.
The only time when the Liberal Party looks beyond that core is when they are threatened with electoral defeat or a minority government. It works for the party if not for the general good of all of Canada.
The impact of that is that they adopt policies that often have a short term impact on the center which have long term negative impacts on other parts of the country.
What is interesting is that he new Conservatives are beginning to adopt the same strategy giving first Quebec and now Ontario the bulk of power with all major portfolios except the PM placed in the hands of former Ontario provincial politicians.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.03.08 9:20 am
Hi Bill…that’s my problem, I know absolutely nothing about airplanes except for whether I’m comfortable or not! It looked like the plane that was in this picture:
http://www.uscost.net/AircraftCharacteristics/Images/c130img.jpg
It was very low and very loud and made two passes over us and apparently in other areas near here. It’s probably a perfectly innocent good reason that it did this, but I am curious as to know why. I did contact a local media outlet and they are looking into it. As for Mr. Fox, his memorial was in Ottawa so I don’t think the events are related, but who knows??
Leasa
Called the airport in Tillsonburg and they have no idea why this plane was doing this. L
By Leasa on 11.03.08 10:51 am
Called the airport in Tillsonburg and they have no idea why this plane was doing this. L
By Leasa on 11.03.08 11:12 am
Glad you were able to ID the bird. I suspected all along it was a CF-130. Pilots have to be trained in navigation and low level flying, and especially the CF-130 pilots because the CF-130 can land places other cargo aircraft cannot.
I have flown the C-130 Hercules and they are a fantastic bird, very stable, and are able to do things other aircraft simply cannot.
Do not worry, you were a witness to YOUR CF’s at work training to keep the True North Strong and FREE!
BTW, here is my favorite shot of C-130, which belongs to the U.S. Navy Blue Angels, and is called ‘Fat Albert.’
Up, Up and AWAY
Note when the JATO (Jet Assisted Take-off) rockets are lit, this baby can climb at a 45 degree angle to 2,500 feet above the ground for very short field takeoffs from combat areas.
We had them when I was in the Marines and they can deliver a lot of troops into a combat area and then hightail it out.
As to the local airport knowing about the training mission, that would be very unlikely unless the CF-130 entered into their controlled airspace. Even if they were aware they would not tell anyone othe than pilots in thier immediate control area.
Called the airport in Tillsonburg and they have no idea why this plane was doing this. L
By Leasa on 11.03.08 11:12 am
A lot of military manoeuvres are classified .
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.03.08 1:12 pm
Thanks Bill. It was a sight! Never before has the military had a plane in our area like that flying so low and slow. I felt like I could reach out and touch it. I am totally fascinated! I still feel as though they were looking for something…if so I hope they found it. I don’t think anything sinister was going on, just got my curiosity peeked! I’ll let you all know if I ever find out what was ‘up’! Leasa
A KC-135 is the same as a Boeing 707, and is powered by by four Pratt & Whitney JET engines, not turboprops.
They also do NOT fly them at low altitudes except when taking off, landing, or crashing.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.03.08 9:20
I stand corrected, caught me not doing my homework on that point! Now I recall, when fishing for Pickerel [Walleye] in the Bay of Quinte, some pilots practicing in air refueling at very low levels just North of the shoreline of Big Bay. The jet fighters would make several practice “hook ups” while low enough for us to see the pilot’s helmets. The Tanker “target” towing the fuel boom is what I cannot remember beyond 4 engines! Is it possible that CFB Trenton had Hercs that were tankers? That week of vacation was back in the era of 1979 or 80. We got no fish until the Wed. when they started to bite. Some big mouth pilot called in one of the Chinook’s to come take a closer look at us on the water, then that evening after they were off duty there was suddenly a whole flotilla of locals out for the evening catch. Big Bay is East of Belleville but that is still in the landing pattern for Trenton of course.
! I’ll let you all know if I ever find out what was ‘up’! Leasa
By Leasa on 11.03.08 4:37 pm
If some military aircraft lost some part of it’s fuselage or whatever, they would search for that very diligently and never breathe a word of why they were looking! But you could start a great conspiracy theory that the government was spraying the population with some chemical drug to make them complacent and cooperative! Just see how quickly that stirs up the ka ka!
Bill knows the one I am talking about!
By Truth B Told on 11.03.08 7:10 pm
Yes, here is a pic of one in action.
C-130 Tanker
Hey, low level HumInt still beats a Fish Finder. LOL
The Navy and Marines, and Army use the C-130 as a Tanker. The USAF uses the KC-135 and KC-10 as aerial refuelers. The Navy and Marines also have smaller aerial refuelers aboard their carriers so when a pilot is low on fuel he can stay airborne rather than ‘SPLASH’ the bird.
By Leasa on 11.03.08 4:37 pm
I know the feeling well. I also pay close attention because I used to fly SAR missions with the USAF for downed birds, both military and civilian.
Glad to have been of assistance.
By Truth B Told on 11.03.08 7:17 pm
Aye, ’tis very embarassing to return to base with less aircraft than one left with. The paperwork would choke a horse, nay, an elephant. LOL
One exception, carrier ops. They drop all external stores like bombs and fuel tanks before landing.
I still laugh at the USAF having arresting cables on their runways.
A grand restructuring is on the way.
Be excited.
It’s been 8 years in the making.
Be prepared.
Most people will need new education to take advantage.
How do you define hyperbole?
Try the photo of what purports to be an “abandoned condo tower site in Vancouver”.
First of all, it’s not abaondoned. If you walked by this afternoon, or yesterday, or the day before, etc., you’d see ongoing construction.
Ongoing sales have been suspended for the time being, but keep in mind that the units were to be sold at prices ranging from $1.4 million to $13 million. Anyone remotely familiar with Vancouver will tell you that the vast majority of those units will go to offshore investors. Furthermore, projects aimed at local homeowners are not being cancelled “all over everywhere” as you suggest. Well before the current credit crunch, a select number of Lower Mainland projects were already being cancelled because the cost of labour and building materials were climbing at an alarming rate.
PS Your comment on the Japanese market is devoid of wit. Shark fin soup is not a Japanese dish. Rather, it is Cantonese Chinese cuisine. Your analogy is pointless — sort of like saying Egyptian house prices stayed in the gazpacho for 15 years.
Gee, you’re smart, and sassy too. Actually, it’s a hole. And it will stay a hole. As for the soup: “Shark fin soup (or shark’s fin soup) is a Chinese cuisine delicacy since Ming Dynasty, commonly served as part of a Chinese feast, usually at special occasions such as weddings and banquets as a symbol of wealth and prestige.” (Wikipedia) — Garth
One exception, carrier ops. They drop all external stores like bombs and fuel tanks before landing.
I still laugh at the USAF having arresting cables on their runways.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.03.08 9:10 pm
Impressed! Now, I would expect that you would fit in well in my home town! We claim several WW2 heros. The one was the eldest grandson of a scout with Custer. He found Nagumo’s Fleet at the battle of Midway. I met Waldron but at age 13 or 14 months I of course do not remember. The other family were the eldest 4 of 6 sons of the town photographer. Two stayed on after WW2 and became instructors on T33s out of CFB Cold Lake. The one married Miss Canada of 1944. Her kid brother and I were pals. Location was on the 110th Meridian very near the 54th! By the way, John George was purported to have said when he was shot down, “I would give a million to know who that Nip was!” He allegedly ran the canopy back and rode the Torpedo 8 down like he was standing up on a horse like the proud Sioux he was! What the McGale’s war records were I never heard the details.
But I still remember the T33 knife edge over town low enough to see the markings on his helmet. We heard he was grounded for a bit for that one!
One exception, carrier ops. They drop all external stores like bombs and fuel tanks before landing.
I still laugh at the USAF having arresting cables on their runways.
By Bill-Muskoka (not anymore) on 11.03.08 9:10 pm
Just East of the Saskatoon Airport runways there used to be a field with bomb craters in it from WW2 training pilots that when returning to land would jetison any unused munitions before touch down for safety. Less weight and less worry! I would think that the area of 51st E and Wentz ave and Cleveland ave has been cleared of any residual remnants before it was developed recently. Just the same I would not be keen to buy there!